Newsfile || We must know where Cecilia Dapaah got the money from and what it's being used for

Name: Newsfile || We must know where Cecilia Dapaah got the money from and what it's being used for
Uploaded: 2023-07-22T14:39:43+00:00
Duration: 2 h 37 min 2 s
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00:00:00 Hello, good morning and welcome to Newsphile. This is your most authoritative

00:00:04 news analysis platform and here on Newsphile as always we put Ghana first.

00:00:11 This morning a public officer is caught by the Constitution and now has the

00:00:23 responsibility and duty and obligation to explain to the state the source of

00:00:33 million dollars, 300,000 euros, several millions of Ghana CDs kept in her

00:00:43 bedroom and stolen by househelps who have used the money to buy homes, rent

00:00:53 homes, buy cars, rent shops and are now facing prosecution. So Cecilia Abena

00:01:05 Dapa, the minister in question has a big hurdle. She has at all cost as we

00:01:17 understand crossed this hurdle in article 286 clause 4 that says any

00:01:27 property or assets acquired by a public officer after the initial declaration

00:01:34 she has made a declaration of her assets sealed and handed to the Auditor General.

00:01:41 It definitely must come up to be opened up and to see if she made a declaration

00:01:47 that her mother who died recently, who was a queen in a sentiment and is said

00:01:53 to have access to gold and has money, her husband an architect who is said to be a

00:02:00 wealthy businessman all gave money to the tune of what she has and had kept in

00:02:08 her bedroom. In fact from the facts in the case it appears that the money was

00:02:15 being stolen over a long period without it being known. Was that a bank? Was that

00:02:23 a savings and loan sort of place where money was being thrown in and yet you

00:02:31 didn't have to know how much was there or you couldn't you just couldn't know

00:02:35 how much was there. So it says property any property or assets acquired by a

00:02:43 public officer after the initial declaration required by clause 1 of this

00:02:48 article and which is not reasonably attributable to income. How much is she

00:02:55 paid? That will be her income. Gifts, maybe a late mother gifted her money or her

00:03:04 husband gave her a gift. Loan, maybe she took a loan. There are allegations

00:03:11 already out there that there is a sanitation contract of several millions

00:03:17 of dollars. Maybe this was kickback from that money. Inheritance or any other

00:03:26 reasonable source. Maybe she has some businesses, she operates some shops and

00:03:31 at the end of the day that's where they do the sales. They keep it in her

00:03:36 bedroom. So until and unless she's able to explain that the money is reasonably

00:03:42 attributable to her income, a gift to her, a loan, an inheritance or any other

00:03:48 reasonable source, it shall be deemed to have been acquired in contravention of

00:03:55 the Constitution. Who will bail the car? Shroud will not investigate, does not

00:04:03 have the power to investigate this aspect abuse of office unless an

00:04:10 individual has made a complaint to Shroud. The OSP has power on its own

00:04:18 motion, self-initiative to investigate lifestyle to ask you where did you get

00:04:27 that money? Maybe the GRE has some questions. How much tax has he paid over

00:04:33 the period? A lot of questions coming up. Is there issue of money laundering? But

00:04:41 many are worried that this morning there's no news after how many hours

00:04:48 that she has either been made to step aside or has been sacked. Some woman, a

00:04:54 deputy minister, only smelled of a million dollars. John Mahama sacked her.

00:05:03 Today a lot of questions are being asked. Is President Akufo-Addo the right

00:05:09 person and does he mean what he says when it comes to the matter of

00:05:14 corruption? Thank you for indulging me. This is a long introduction but we will

00:05:20 also deal with matters of a parliament of 275 members who can't raise a simple

00:05:30 quorum of 92 MPs for the business of the house. The majority, how many are they? The

00:05:39 majority is blaming the minority because the minority has been staging a boycott

00:05:45 but the majority has far in excess of 92 MPs. They are not taking you serious. The

00:05:56 NPP flag bearer race, there's already some mudslinging going on, very dirty

00:06:02 stuff being thrown at some of the candidates and there's an alliance by

00:06:07 nine of the candidates for fair play because they believe that from the way

00:06:12 things are going there's an establishment candidate, Dr. Baumea, who

00:06:16 may gain an unfair advantage. We will look in all of these. We'll be right back.

00:06:24 You're welcome back. This is News File. It's your most authoritative news analysis

00:06:33 platform and here on News File we put Ghana first and it's brought to you by

00:06:38 the candid sponsorship of Bank of Africa, as strong as a group, as close as a

00:06:41 partner, MTN everywhere you go, Ashasi University, educating ethical and

00:06:46 entrepreneur leaders for Africa, Robert and Sons Optical Services, your

00:06:50 comprehensive eye care service provider for 31 years,

00:06:54 Duraplus, producers of quality PVC and HDPE pipes and water tank. Where Duraplus

00:07:03 goes you know water flows, DBS Industries, roofing, papapafi, MyWay, dial

00:07:11 star 165 hush on MTN to join MyWay today. Cherry properties, cherry tree

00:07:20 properties, we develop spaces as though we're going to occupy them ourselves.

00:07:27 Syntex tanks, it's strong, it's tough and flamingo paints simply superior. Thank

00:07:37 you very much for joining us and I do not have a take for you actually. I had

00:07:43 been planning my take around the issue that we are going to discuss today so I

00:07:47 shelved my take except to say that on the Bugrinabu matter that has come up

00:07:54 where the IGP allegedly is there's been a plot or some conspiracy to oust the

00:08:01 IGP, the people that are suspected to have leaked that particular tape we

00:08:08 understand allegedly have been arrested by the NIB, the Bureau of

00:08:12 Investigation, National Investigations Bureau. I just have a simple question to

00:08:20 ask them. You can deem them as whistleblowers, not so? What do you do

00:08:26 with whistleblowers? Do you arrest them and deal with them harshly or you

00:08:31 collaborate with them so that you can get to the bottom of things and fight

00:08:37 wrong in society? Why are those people arrested if it is the case that the

00:08:44 suspicion is that they have been linked to being those who recorded the tape

00:08:50 or released the tape into the public? First, what's the offense for doing such

00:08:57 a recording or leaking such a recording? Article 18 of the Constitution is very

00:09:03 clear. You cannot record people, interfere with people's private

00:09:08 conversations and their property and their communication but if it has to do

00:09:13 with crime, if it has to do with the morality of the country, if it has to do

00:09:19 with health that is being compromised, you have every right to blow the whistle

00:09:23 on the evildoers of this country. So why is it that the voices that have been

00:09:29 heard of people that we know, that you in the security more importantly know and

00:09:36 some have come out already to admit that they were part of the conversations. Why

00:09:43 is it that those people are not the ones we have heard have been arrested, are

00:09:47 being dealt with but those potentially who may have leaked or may have recorded

00:09:52 it and commit no offense whatsoever? We ought to be careful in this country and

00:09:58 I call on all of us to be sure that we are participating actively in the system

00:10:04 otherwise if we don't we'll make a big mistake as Sam Okudjeto, the senior

00:10:09 citizen says in chapter 13 of his book which is page 58 he says I now hold a

00:10:18 view that non-involvement in the political process is a disservice to

00:10:23 one's country. The RTI Commission on Thursday did introduce certain

00:10:32 things and the minister you know encouraged them to help citizens to blow

00:10:37 the whistle and make sure that wrong is not encouraged in this country. My guest

00:10:42 this morning Mary Awalana Ada who is acting executive director of the Ghana

00:10:48 Integrity Initiative that is international watchdog local chapter

00:10:57 transparency international's local chapter GII. Dr. Thew Echampong is

00:11:01 economist and risk analyst. Kuduapie J. Tuya is associate professor of law

00:11:07 University of Ghana Lagon. Samuel Nete George is MP Ningo Prampram deputy

00:11:13 ranking member communications committee of Parliament and member public

00:11:17 accounts committee of Parliament. We extended an invitation to the

00:11:22 Neopatriotic Party of course because one of the issues also has to do

00:11:26 directly with the party but as at this minute there is no representation. Let's

00:11:32 hope that there will be some representation. It does appear that the

00:11:35 first issue does not encourage them but we'll have a discussion. Welcome. Good

00:11:41 morning and welcome to all of you gentlemen. Lady and gentlemen. Good

00:11:44 morning. Great. Morning. Right. Okay so let's go straight to the matter of

00:11:53 Cecilia Dapa, Abena Dapa shall we. Some of these documents often they are put in

00:12:00 court and the names are obsecured because if you look at the charge sheet

00:12:07 and the statement accompanying the charge sheet there is no reference to

00:12:11 the person here the complainant here being a minister or anything like that.

00:12:16 So sometimes these things are being caught for a while and nobody discovers

00:12:19 that they are prominent people but this time round this is what we have in our

00:12:25 faces. So I have the charge sheet from the Circuit Court of Ghana here in Accra

00:12:33 is the Republic versus patient Boce, Sarai J, Benjamin Sowa, Kwaku Boce and

00:12:40 Malik Dauda and there is a count one which is conspiracy to commit crime to

00:12:45 with stealing contrary to sections so so and so of the law and always your time

00:12:51 particulars of offense that patients Boce who is 18 years a hairdresser, Sarai J

00:12:57 who is 30 years unemployed between the period of July and October 2022 at a

00:13:02 Belenpe in the greater Accra region and within the jurisdiction of the court

00:13:06 did agree or acted together with common purpose to commit a crime which is

00:13:12 stealing. Count two that these two people within the same period also did

00:13:20 dishonestly appropriate cash the sum of 1 million dollars the property of

00:13:27 Cecilia Abina Dapa please note that already there's some very lame defenses

00:13:34 out there that say it's not a money it's a husband's money go and check the

00:13:38 charge sheet if you are not reading. Then counts number three mentions the same

00:13:47 lady and two ladies again and says they dishonestly appropriated the cash sum of

00:13:54 300,000 euros the property of Cecilia Abina Dapa check that again her husband

00:14:00 is not there. Then count four they mentioned them again and they say that

00:14:07 they dishonestly appropriated this cash sum all of the cash 350,000 Ghana

00:14:16 CDs being the property of Cecilia Abina Dapa once again count five now it's

00:14:24 Boche the hairdresser and again and it says that they once again did

00:14:35 dishonestly appropriate assorted clothes valued 95,000 Ghana CDs assorted

00:14:43 handbags valued 35,000 dollars and assorted perfumes valued 1,400 dollars

00:14:53 the property of Cecilia Abina Dapa. Then count six it's important that we do

00:15:01 this before we start the discussion that these two dishonestly appropriated

00:15:09 assorted jewelries valued at 95,000 dollars the property of

00:15:16 Cecilia Abina Dapa. Then count seven that they dishonestly appropriated six

00:15:24 pieces of assorted kente cloth valued at 90,000 Ghana CDs and six sets of

00:15:31 men's suits valued at three thousand dollars the property of Daniel Osei Kofor

00:15:39 so this is where you hear Daniel Osei Kofor kente cloth and what's it again

00:15:47 suits. Then count nine okay so yes count eight count eight that they

00:16:01 dishonestly a plumber this time is a plumber Benjamin Sowa dishonestly

00:16:05 received he received one hundred and eight thousand eighty thousand Ghana

00:16:11 CDs the property of Cecilia Abina Dapa once again check that which he knew to

00:16:19 have been obtained by means of crime so please don't accept you know something

00:16:24 that is stolen it's wrong it's also also criminal when you do that. Then Kweku

00:16:30 Boche, 65 years Benjamin Sowa is 29 years. Kweku Boche he dishonestly received

00:16:40 50,000 Ghana CDs he said to be the father of the of the house help the

00:16:47 property of Cecilia Abina Dapa which he knew to have been obtained by means of

00:16:52 crime if your girl of 18 years brings you 50,000 Ghana CDs you should ask her

00:16:58 where she got that money okay. Count ten Malik Dauda social media is having fun

00:17:06 with that. At 34 years unemployed that he did dishonestly receive 100,000 Ghana

00:17:15 CDs the property of Cecilia Abina Dapa which he knew was obtained by means of

00:17:21 crime so you hear about money being given to a boyfriend and so on and

00:17:27 people are saying well exes can also enjoy. Now I'll do this then we we we

00:17:33 start the discussion this is called the brief facts of the case. Complainants in

00:17:39 this case are Daniel Osayekufo and his wife Cecilia Abina Dapa who reside at

00:17:45 Abilinpe Accra. First accused, Patience Boche Mabna was a house help to the

00:17:55 complainants. Second accused, Sarah Eje is unemployed, a former house help

00:18:03 collaboration for proper collaboration a former house help to the complainants.

00:18:10 Third accused, Benjamin Sowa is a boyfriend okay so Benjamin Benjamin he's

00:18:15 the guy I once forgot he got actually a lot of money than Malik got. Third

00:18:22 accused is a boyfriend to Patience. Fourth accused, Kweku Boche is Patience's

00:18:31 dad. Fifth accused, Malik Dada is a former boyfriend boyfriend and former

00:18:38 yeah he's the former boyfriend you see boyfriend and former boyfriend. Sometime

00:18:43 in June 2023 the complainants reported a theft of cash and some personal effects

00:18:49 as indicated as indicated on the face of the charge sheet. Prior to that, Patience

00:18:58 who was a house help to the complainants was caught to have opened and entered

00:19:04 the bedroom of the complainants with a duplicate key. She went and make that made

00:19:11 that by herself a duplicate key. Upon intelligence, Patience and the other

00:19:18 person were arrested at their hideout in her boyfriend were arrested at their

00:19:25 hideout in Tamale in the northern region. A search conducted in their room revealed

00:19:30 40,000 US dollars and 72,619 CDs 70

00:19:40 Pesos. Police investigation revealed that sometime in October 2022 keep that in

00:19:48 mind complainant Daniel Seikufo returned from town to observe that their

00:19:52 bedroom which was locked and had been opened which was locked had been opened

00:19:58 and heard an unusual noise therein. He entered the room and found Patience

00:20:05 hiding behind the door. Subsequently the complainants detected

00:20:10 thefts of properties indicated on the face of the charge sheet. Further

00:20:16 investigations revealed that house help used part of the stolen money to buy a

00:20:23 three-bedroom house at Amaraje at a cost of 70,000 US dollars. Okay good life. The

00:20:32 following brand new items could that brand new items which the house help

00:20:40 used some of the stolen money to buy were also retrieved from the said house.

00:20:46 She bought a fresh house or she bought a house 70,000 US dollars and then used

00:20:53 quite a bit of the money to finish it. One double-decker refrigerator, one

00:21:00 television set, one washing machine, one chest freezer, one gas cooker, one water

00:21:06 dispenser and related items. She doesn't want to drink sachet water anymore. She

00:21:12 has a water dispenser. So she and her boyfriend you see them they are used as

00:21:18 A1, A3. I'm just making sense for you. She and her boyfriend also indicated that

00:21:24 they used some of the stolen money to buy Hyundai Elantra with registration

00:21:32 number GE 977123 at a cost of 80,000 Ghana cedis. She also gave 180,000 Ghana

00:21:47 cedis to her boyfriend who used same to purchase an unregistered Honda Civic car

00:21:57 with DV plate number 490323 which same have been retrieved. So they have

00:22:08 retrieved this. Investigation also disclosed that patients and her boyfriend

00:22:14 used parts of the stolen money to rent a three-bedroom apartment at Tamale at a

00:22:22 total cost of 105,600 cedis. I bet they bought a house in Amraya. They

00:22:32 finished it. Why do they need to rent a house? Okay so they rented a house for a

00:22:36 period of two years. Additionally she and her boyfriend used part of the stolen

00:22:41 money and a lot to spend. I'm tired reading. She used part of the stolen

00:22:46 money to rent a storeroom at Tamale at a total cost of 120,000 Ghana cedis. So

00:22:55 patients, according to the investigators, has admitted the offense and mentioned

00:23:03 her accomplice, that is the former house help, to the effect that when they were

00:23:12 working in the complainant's house, she used to keep watch of the main gates for

00:23:20 the former house help to go into the complainant's room to steal their money

00:23:27 after which they share the spoil. So they've been doing it for a long time.

00:23:35 Then the former house help was subsequently arrested from her hideout

00:23:41 in Budumburum, a suburb of Kasua for investigation. Investigations further

00:23:49 disclosed that this former house help used part of the stolen money to build a

00:23:55 three-bedroom self-contained house at Budumburum. Patients also gave 50,000

00:24:04 Ghana cedis out of the stolen money to her dad. Your dad, you gave her only 50.

00:24:12 And your boyfriend, how much? Ex-boyfriend, how much? Who admitted the preceding fact

00:24:18 during investigation. So the dad has also admitted the crime, admitted receiving

00:24:24 the money. The former house help also gave 100,000 Ghana cedis out of the

00:24:37 stolen money to a fife, that would be Malik, who also admitted the same.

00:24:48 The case is still under investigation and they brought it before the court,

00:24:53 arraigned the people, seeking that trial will commence to retrieve all these

00:25:00 monies. So let me begin with Professor Kwadwo Apyeje-Echia. You are the lawyer.

00:25:12 How do you see what is going on on the face of the charge sheet and the brief

00:25:18 facts of the case? Thank you for having me. I think this is scandalous and anyone

00:25:30 who hears such news would be certainly be worried about how far or the extent

00:25:38 to which developments in the political arena touching on corruption, touching on

00:25:44 money laundering, touching on other issues that touch the very heart of our

00:25:52 political dispensation will see it because it's a very big amount of money

00:25:59 and considering the fact that we are going to the IMF for loans and so on. The

00:26:06 question is how do we account for this development? But in any case it's

00:26:14 seems to be part of our political practice in the country. Maybe the

00:26:22 politicians will deal with that but for me in terms of the law I think the

00:26:27 question then is how do we make sure that this matter doesn't rest where it

00:26:33 is because we have offices like the Office of the Special Prosecutor. As we

00:26:38 already said he can immediately take up the matter based on the powers that he

00:26:42 has on his own. SRAJ cannot and we also need to look at the Assets

00:26:48 Declaration regime, its effectiveness in dealing with such matters. We need to

00:26:53 look at the Office of the Economic and Organized Crime

00:26:58 Office and whether it also has a power to do so and whether it has a muscle to

00:27:04 do so. So in terms of the law I think these are the areas that immediately

00:27:09 come to mind and the question is whether we can use law to deal with the matter or

00:27:15 there has to be some other means to tackle the issue. So that would be my

00:27:20 comments. Thank you. All right I return to you. So the question would be why

00:27:25 should somebody who has money kept in her room, you know, why should

00:27:33 the person be investigated because the person's money is lost and has been

00:27:37 stolen and she's seeking to retrieve it. Maybe say something briefly about that.

00:27:41 Why? Well as for money you have the right to keep your money where you want it to

00:27:46 be and everybody also has a right to property so what you have worked for and

00:27:51 what you have earned is entirely yours except those I have to pay as tax.

00:27:57 But in this situation that is why for example the Assets Declaration regime

00:28:03 would be helpful because you can easily refer to what she deposited when she

00:28:10 was appointed as a minister, the records that indicate that she has so much

00:28:14 assets and then you compare that to the amount of money that she has been

00:28:20 receiving as a minister or as a member of Parliament or as both and then you

00:28:25 can easily draw the line and do the deductions and conclude that so much

00:28:30 money could not have been acquired through legitimate means. Of course the

00:28:35 laws talk about gifts and so on so you need to look at all of that and then

00:28:40 you conclude if the money, the excess that is not accounted for can be

00:28:44 legitimate money or whether it came in through illicit means which therefore

00:28:50 suggests money laundering issues, brings that issue into the picture. And so

00:28:57 keeping money in your home is not wrong but what money is it and what is

00:29:05 the money being used for because according to the facts the money has

00:29:10 been there for some time and the people have been siphoning it off and they

00:29:14 thought that they had also hit a jackpot so they continued to do that and they

00:29:19 couldn't even recognize that the money was being siphoned off and so that tells

00:29:23 you that there's more to it than meets the eye. Okay what would be your

00:29:28 preliminary comments Sam George? As a member of Parliament the NDC caucus

00:29:34 yesterday already raised issues. We'll go into all of that. The minority leader

00:29:39 said this must be dealt with speedily. The NDC members also spoke to the press

00:29:44 and said she should actually be sacked immediately if not interdicted at least.

00:29:50 John Mahama issued a, also tweeted saying that this is scandalous. Well very

00:29:57 good morning to you and my co-panelists and the good people of Ningopo and Bamina

00:30:02 viewers. It's a sad day for us, a sad spectacle. This is how low we've sunk in

00:30:08 as a country. The issues at hand are mind-boggling. I mean since the matter

00:30:15 book yesterday I've been trying to process and appreciates the gravity and

00:30:21 enormity of the matter but I think that the first thing I'll say on this is that

00:30:25 this case clearly distinguishes for those who have the erroneous belief that the

00:30:32 NDC and the NPP are one and they say NDC and NPP are the same. This is a

00:30:37 fantastic classic case that establishes the difference between the two parties

00:30:41 and I remember very well because I was part of government at the time when in

00:30:49 2013, 2014, early 2013, late 2013, early 2014, a videotape emerged of a private

00:30:59 recording and I'm saying this on the back of your earlier take, a recording

00:31:06 that was done of a private conversation without the consent of the person where

00:31:10 there was in her car where there was an allusion to a dream of getting a

00:31:17 million dollars. It was a dream. Call it the Ghanaian dream, whatever dream, a

00:31:22 dream. The Mahama administration of the day in 48 hours

00:31:28 sacked Victoria Hama. In 48 hours she was sacked. Now we've crossed 24 hours since

00:31:36 the story broke. This is not a recording. This is not a dream. This is someone

00:31:42 leaving the reality and leaving a bigger dream actually because I keep saying to

00:31:48 people that a million dollars per the charge sheet belonging to the Minister

00:31:53 for Sanitation and Water Resources, Honorable Cecilia Abinadapa, is missing

00:32:00 from her residence. It took her husband chancing on the person in the act to

00:32:10 notice that a million dollars was missing. It then presupposes that the

00:32:19 stash of cash there is way in excess of a million dollars because even if it was

00:32:25 two million dollars and half of a stash of money is missing, it will be obvious to

00:32:29 the naked eye. For it to be so inconsequential that you couldn't notice

00:32:36 its absence until you stumbled on the person should give us a bigger worry as

00:32:43 a nation. How much was stashed in that home? And then begin to ask ourselves, and

00:32:50 and I agree with Professor Apijei-Tuya that there's no crime in keeping your

00:32:57 money under your bed in a bank, digging a hole and putting it, it's your personal

00:33:02 choice. There is no legislation that says all

00:33:05 monies must be deposited in the bank. So on that one, it's fine if she kept her money.

00:33:09 At least in Ghana, elsewhere, you cannot. Yes, but in Ghana there's no law like that.

00:33:14 So I wouldn't say that she's breaking any law by keeping money in her house. But

00:33:19 the question I would then ask is, if one million dollars is so inconsequential,

00:33:24 I'm looking at a quantum of my mind's eyes envisaging how much money was

00:33:28 stashed there, how then did you come by that money? Is it legitimate money? If it

00:33:36 is legitimate money, we can simply establish that by you showing us the

00:33:40 trail of work done to inherit or earn that money. And then if it is

00:33:48 inheritance or earned, we must see the commensurate tax that has been paid to

00:33:56 the GRE on that matter. And that will settle this matter. But if you are unable

00:34:01 to show us any legitimate business that paid that money, and again the question

00:34:09 you ask yourself is, for that volume of money, which legitimate business will pay

00:34:13 you in cash? Or were you paid by bank wire and you went to the bank and asked

00:34:20 the bank to withdraw it and bring it to your house? If that was the case, you

00:34:24 must tell us which bank. The bank must confirm that they indeed did a cash out

00:34:28 of that amount and deliver it. And then we begin to ask ourselves, we have the

00:34:32 central bank regime, where even when you want to withdraw $10,000 from a bank in

00:34:37 Ghana, you can't go beyond that in a year. So on what basis then... And you suggested

00:34:42 if it was money paid to her, like bulk, one installment, that amount, the FIC,

00:34:51 the Financial Intelligence Commission... Absolutely should have been triggered. Look, I had to fight for a

00:34:55 client. It was just $50,000 that was sent into his account. Somebody in the

00:35:01 bank saw it, they said, we checked your accounts, not this much. Immediately they

00:35:06 triggered FIC, the money got frozen. Now we had to go to court and fight and

00:35:11 explain why the money belongs to the person. $50,000. That is

00:35:15 literally... $50,000. $50,000, sorry. So that is literally one

00:35:21 twentieth of the amount we're talking about here. So if it went through that,

00:35:27 then it must be legitimate because they will have gone through those processes.

00:35:31 The FIC will have to establish, and like I said, we're talking of $1 million, which is

00:35:36 the insignificant portion that was stolen. So the full stash is what we must

00:35:40 begin to investigate and understand. And for me, I think that if

00:35:45 Honorable Cecilia Abinadapa was minded by the title she bears, Honorable, and

00:35:51 this is someone I know personally, but I mean, she should have resigned. She shouldn't

00:35:57 have even waited to be sacked. She should have resigned. She's issued a statement. And you see that

00:36:00 statement? She's issued a statement. It doesn't matter that the Cecilia

00:36:05 spelling at the beginning has C-E-C-E, but we are informed that she admits

00:36:14 that this is her statement. And the statement is dated the 21st of July 2023.

00:36:22 Statement from Cecilia Abinadapa. I refer to publications dated 21-07-2023

00:36:30 suggesting that I own $1 million, 300,000 euros, and millions of CDs which

00:36:39 have been stolen from my house. There are noticeable inconsistencies between what

00:36:45 is being discussed in the public domain and the thrust of the original

00:36:50 complaint on the matter. I am taking steps to examine the origins of the

00:36:55 inconsistencies and will provide a detailed response in the coming days.

00:37:00 Signed, name correctly spelled, Cecilia Abinadapa. Okay, so she doesn't say this

00:37:08 is untrue, of course she cannot say this is untrue, but she says there are

00:37:11 noticeable inconsistencies and as far as the original complaint is concerned, and

00:37:19 she's taking steps to resolve that. Maybe the investigators put $1 million

00:37:26 when she meant for them to put $100,000. For want of, I mean this case has been in

00:37:32 court for a while, it's not just today started, I mean and the investigations

00:37:37 have been going on since sometime last year, 2022. For want of the

00:37:42 confidentiality of private conversation, I would not mention who, but yesterday in

00:37:48 Parliament after this matter broke, a senior member of government and a senior

00:37:53 MPP person made it clear to us that they were going to engage in a PR spin and

00:37:58 get the charge sheet amended. I think the charge sheet has actually been amended

00:38:03 but I haven't seen the amended charge sheet. Exactly, so and the attempt to amend it is

00:38:09 because of the gravity of the theft to try and drop down the numbers. So Ghanaians

00:38:14 should watch out for that. I mean you soon see a new charge sheet that have

00:38:17 dropped a number of zeros out of the figures in question, but look you can

00:38:23 tell us that it is only after this has become public knowledge that you are now

00:38:30 realizing that the amounts were not what it was or are false or a misrepresentation.

00:38:36 It just shocks me you know that we we have a Minister of State, I mean this is

00:38:41 our Ebola Minister for want of a better phrase, I mean this is our Ebola Minister.

00:38:45 Ebola Minister has a million dollars plus in her home, 300,000 euros and

00:38:51 millions of Ghana citizens in her home and you have your information minister

00:38:56 telling you go and sell your dollars, stop hoarding your dollars. So it means

00:39:00 that the members of the Akufo-Addo government clearly are not listening,

00:39:04 they're not walking their talk, they have a different narrative for us as Ghanaians

00:39:08 and there's a different narrative for those of them in government. I mean look

00:39:11 and at times the truth is in the detail, the devil is in the detail. If you

00:39:16 really pay attention, the people of Akufo-Addo told us, "What's the matter with you?"

00:39:21 "You're not listening." "What's the matter with you?" "You're not listening." You understand me? I mean this is the

00:39:26 reality. They turn around and blame the NDC. In fact me Sam George, I have been

00:39:32 blamed by MPP government for the fall in the city. Do you remember that story

00:39:37 where they said my anti-LGBTQ bill had affected the performance of the dollar?

00:39:42 Meanwhile they are storing the dollar in their homes. I'll return to your bet. This was

00:39:47 supposed to be your preliminary. I think the amended charge sheet will be

00:39:52 dated the 20th of June, will be dated the 20th of June I think, but as far as what

00:40:02 I see in a portion of it, I don't have the full picture of it, the 1 million

00:40:07 dollars remains unchanged on that amended charge sheet, which I, the date I

00:40:15 see is on the 20th of July, not June, 20th of July. Alright so even if it's

00:40:21 amended, the 20, the 100, the 1 million is there and then the 300

00:40:29 euros is also there as well. There'll be an amendment of the amendment, you wait.

00:40:33 Okay, alright let's see how that goes. Yes Mary, from where you sit at GII and

00:40:41 this will be the first time we are speaking to you since you assumed the

00:40:46 topmost office in that place, so congratulations. What have you been

00:40:50 thinking since yesterday when you became aware of this? Thank you very much

00:40:56 Samson, good morning to you and good morning to the team. This is an

00:41:03 unfortunate situation. It is shocking, it is seriously sad that at a time when this

00:41:13 country is struggling to revive from the disastrous consequences of the near

00:41:22 economic failure, which has been attributed to many factors but not the

00:41:28 inefficiencies we have been grappling with, which we believe are the bane of our

00:41:35 suffering, we encountered this challenge today. It is a big blot in the fight

00:41:43 against corruption for us. The implications are so disastrous and we

00:41:50 say so because if we are saying that and the two speakers have eloquently

00:41:57 spoken to this, that someone is keeping such huge sums of money in their homes

00:42:04 and these monies are personal and as you correctly indicated from the chart sheet

00:42:11 if you read I think it is only on the seven that is mentioned about three

00:42:17 thousand dollars or so belonging to the husband. The rest of the properties

00:42:23 which have been cited are said to belong to the Honorable Minister of State. This

00:42:31 is sad particularly because we are speaking of a situation where this

00:42:38 government has been the proponent of digitalization, has been the proponent of

00:42:45 formalizing the economy, of ensuring that money is not out there to promote

00:42:52 too much funding and its economic implications in the fiscal space, one of

00:43:00 them being the inflation which is so so huge we are all affected by. And so for

00:43:07 me to think that one human being could keep such money in the house, then where

00:43:13 is this drive towards the digitization we are talking about? And I bring in one

00:43:19 of the critical elements of the banking crisis, it is this same government under

00:43:24 which she serves that decided that some banks were not doing well and they went

00:43:30 down. So it is this same government which has embarked on a DDE which is

00:43:37 discouraging Ghanaians from banking or putting their monies into investment. So

00:43:44 if a leading member of this same government is keeping one million

00:43:50 dollars in her house and as eloquently spoken to by Prof and Sam George, this

00:43:58 was not even noticed. So meaning there is a lot more trash where it came from and

00:44:07 for these households to be aware of that means they have seen or they have

00:44:15 through their cleaning, they have seen that this is so much if they fix them

00:44:19 nobody would notice. And so they continue to indulge and now some of them have

00:44:24 made themselves so rich and that is not to say that stealing is good but

00:44:29 unfortunately this household saw an opportunity where there was so much they

00:44:35 thought they could also indulge and then get away with it and they did until a

00:44:40 stroke of luck on behalf of the minister's husband ensured that they

00:44:47 were caught. But critically we are saying that in our face this should be

00:44:55 seriously attended to and if you look at our asset declaration I think it is a

00:45:01 beginning point where we can then be talking about whether these monies were

00:45:06 genuinely acquired. If they are acquired they should be in within the purview of

00:45:14 Act 550 which speaks to the declaration of asset and liabilities. So it is for us

00:45:21 to ask the president, the appointing authority to do the right thing because

00:45:26 it has been so disappointing in the past that wherever we have asked when issues

00:45:32 of corruption have come up we have not seen much action being taken. It is not

00:45:38 enough to say you are providing agencies which are fighting corruption with

00:45:43 resources but then the political will to act on instances such as these are not

00:45:49 taken seriously. It is not enough for the president to continue to tell us that

00:45:55 fake institutions are acting while behind the scenes strings are being pulled to

00:46:02 frustrate processes from occurring. We believe that for the president to redeem

00:46:07 his image and then also take off that mantra that has been applied to him for

00:46:15 some time now that he is a cleric agent we believe this is a time for him to act

00:46:22 and act swiftly. Ask this minister to step aside and let the agencies of state take this thing up.

00:46:30 I believe the OSB has shown in time that he can do this and he will do it very well if allowed.

00:46:38 And so the president should let this woman step aside immediately. Then it gives

00:46:43 opportunity to do a thorough investigation on this. If she is not fact

00:46:49 let her be interdicted. I say if she is not fact because she took this issue to

00:46:55 court and so perhaps she would also be countering you are lawyers you would say

00:47:00 she would say that it was solely while she may not have gone to court to think

00:47:06 that justice is done for her. But we are saying that for a public...

00:47:12 Doesn't that suggest to you that to be bold to put this in court suggests that

00:47:21 the money may be clean and so you may have to maybe be hesitant in rushing to

00:47:29 pronounce as it were judgment that it is stolen money. Of course it is stolen

00:47:35 money to the extent that those who have been put in court stole it but to her

00:47:40 it's her money and I was saying that don't you think that we may be a bit

00:47:45 running ahead of ourselves because we know that politicians and keeping huge

00:47:53 sums of money in their homes in their boots and you know so on it's not a new

00:47:59 phenomenon and I will in the course of this discussion I like us to go to that

00:48:05 that extent to check a few a number of things that's why I brought these books

00:48:09 in in the studio here so shouldn't we be a little you know cautious if somebody

00:48:15 can go to court knowing that the court is not a private place is a public place

00:48:20 and that this thing will become public if I go to court unless you are sure

00:48:26 that this is clean money will you dare do that?

00:48:30 Samson, I remember when you started this in your introduction you mentioned clearly

00:48:37 that when these issues are taken to court because the person's names are

00:48:44 mentioned and you know for me there are a lot of people call Awelana and a lot of

00:48:50 people call Mary and so many of us would not even adduce our minds to some of

00:48:55 these and so that is one of the areas that we could be thinking about and

00:49:00 that's why I can see that perhaps she thought she was she had a case and so

00:49:04 she could take it to court but for us the critical element in this discussion

00:49:09 is that a public officer who is paid a certain amount which is public

00:49:15 information is able to amass such huge sums of money that is stashed in her

00:49:23 home and there is no trail that is the critical issue we should be talking

00:49:29 about no trail of this money from anywhere we know what we're having

00:49:35 gotten there yet have we exactly there is how can anybody I remember there was

00:49:41 the time somebody sent some money through a family and this was also frozen

00:49:47 until it was proving and that was just $10,000 because the person had not seen

00:49:53 such money small small money so for 300,000 euros and then 1 million and we

00:50:00 continue to say that it is not just 1 million because if the 1 million is

00:50:04 taken away and it's not people do not notice it it means it is so huge that

00:50:10 maybe so so you hold on there I'll return to you but you know when you're

00:50:15 looking at scenarios you could look at two ways like you have just said and

00:50:20 some George said earlier it is possible that this was some sort of I don't know

00:50:27 what it would have been in what they would have been putting the money in it

00:50:32 could be that they were dumping the money in there or she was dumping money

00:50:36 in there all the time so she doesn't get to check to know how much exactly you

00:50:40 know it's been taking out it is also possible that this was that figure put

00:50:47 aside and because it's been some of it has been stolen then she gets to know

00:50:52 that the exact amount I put there for a certain purpose later has been stolen

00:50:59 dr. to a champion yes I'll return to you Mary I return to you Mary

00:51:07 dr. to a champion thank you very much for also joining us from where you sit and

00:51:13 how you are not analyze things first your first impressions and what are your

00:51:19 expectations I read a portion of the amended chart sheet earlier and I said

00:51:27 was the date is actually the fifth the fifth of July and the amended chart

00:51:33 sheet nothing changes except the amount giving to the ex-boyfriend nothing

00:51:40 changes so the contents remain almost the same expect except the

00:51:46 boyfriend's figure that has changed yes the ratio temple yeah something good

00:51:52 morning again pleasure to be here you know the first thing that came to me

00:51:56 when I saw this news yesterday I just started and I said hey is she running a

00:52:03 savings and loans company in her house because I mean it's not a small amount

00:52:09 of money 1 million dollars assuming it was even hundred dollar bills normally

00:52:15 would fit into the suitcase like a small suitcase that people tend to travel with

00:52:21 again 1 million dollars just for the purposes of our listeners today the

00:52:27 exchange rate is like 11.5 right so that's the 11 million Ghana city so

00:52:33 11.5 million Ghana cities it to build a six unit classroom block in Ghana would

00:52:40 cost you roughly about eight hundred or so thousand so that 1 million dollars so

00:52:45 11.5 million can build about 14 six unit classroom blocks just for people to

00:52:52 appreciate you know the amounts that we're talking about you know in in

00:52:57 question here but there are two or three issues within some of which our other

00:53:03 panelists have spoken about the first thing is for me it comes to me across

00:53:09 although she wasn't even aware that these monies had been stolen or taken

00:53:15 from her on to the point that the husband discovered that something

00:53:20 untoward that's a fact so so so the question then is how much more money was

00:53:27 actually in the house that we don't know right and number two if over the time

00:53:34 you become a minister or at the time of becoming a minister you declare your

00:53:38 assets you declare liabilities we know all of that so are we in a position to

00:53:44 establish that these monies cause on the charge sheet that you read almost nine

00:53:50 out of the you know ten or so charges so probably about seven directly says that

00:53:55 this is good and uncalled the property of Cicelya Abina Dapa right in fact it

00:54:01 is only count six which is the value of the kente and suits that belong to the

00:54:08 husband yes so so then since she became a minister we know how much ministers

00:54:15 earn in this country we know what they are paid every month we should be in a

00:54:21 position to then establish whether these monies which she says were her property

00:54:29 was actually and legitimately or not because what is very clear and what we

00:54:35 are having to climb as Ghana is not poor and it looks as though it is the the

00:54:41 national cake that is residing in people's bedrooms to put it you know a

00:54:46 bit more mildly in that sense so we need to interrogate and the point for me

00:54:52 really is that the investigation must go beyond what is going on in the court

00:54:58 currently the USP must step in we need to interrogate the source of wealth how

00:55:06 she came to acquire these monies other people have even said that well it could

00:55:11 have been that the husband gave her that 1 million dollars plus all the extra

00:55:18 bits you know as part of the idea dealing but again it's it's very easy to

00:55:24 prove that because we should why why and and the matter is reported to police and

00:55:30 the husband is involved as a co-complainant because and and identifies

00:55:36 only his cloths and the suits as what has been stolen from him he doesn't say

00:55:41 that money is his yeah that's his bit but let's even say that the husband even

00:55:46 give her the 1 million dollars right as a gift for argument's sake it should be

00:55:54 possible to prove that indeed that was a gift and the source of that money came

00:56:01 indeed from the husband this would all have to be established through some

00:56:05 investigation beyond the the current processes that are ongoing that's why I

00:56:10 think the OSP must must step in and we need to interrogate it because you know

00:56:16 however we slice and dice it this is a major major scandal and goes you know to

00:56:24 put the the government and the so-called fight against corruption and other

00:56:31 things in a very bad light because we're just here analyzing these issues and for

00:56:37 a minister to have had that amount of money and this is the same government

00:56:43 regime that has been talking about don't don't keep your dollars take your money

00:56:47 come and put it in the banking setup in the banking system unless I understand

00:56:53 that no no bank branch in Ghana will keep this amount of money that's just

00:57:00 the dollars overnight in their vault they are not allowed so they will keep

00:57:05 some the rest would be good to the the central bank as part of their

00:57:09 reconciliations right so her bedroom is obviously bigger than a bank branch

00:57:13 exact but the big point really is if you are the government and you're telling us

00:57:19 that we should be patriotic we should bring our dollars put it in the banking

00:57:24 setup and you know all do our best to help this alien economy then on what

00:57:29 basis then do we then find this huge amount of money or more or less stashed

00:57:35 in one person's bedroom and remember this is only the amount that is reported

00:57:41 to have been stolen we don't even know you know that the quantum in that in a

00:57:46 sense so it tells me that look the money's would have been coming and the

00:57:52 big point you also raised about the whole politics and political economy

00:57:56 people go to see ministers at home people go to see our big men at home

00:58:02 people carry envelopes people carry all sort of things right around and and and

00:58:09 these monies you cannot take it into the normal banks and try to sort of you know

00:58:17 deposit it because immediately it will trigger some of the KYC and Yoko and

00:58:23 FYC and all of that so the big point or the other big point I want to sort of

00:58:28 highlight really is all about how the politics of the country is run right

00:58:35 hold on for me I want us to get into the second leg of the discussion after

00:58:42 hearing your preliminary comments and in the second leg I want you guys to tell

00:58:46 us what is wrong and what should be happening what should be happening

00:58:52 elevate the discussion into the whole political economy CDD has told us how

00:58:59 much it costs to fund you know a parliamentary campaign a presidential

00:59:04 campaign a lot a lot humongous lot of money involved in all of that business

00:59:11 how dr. Obata somewhere in his book here also tells us how filthy the field has

00:59:19 become and we all remember the dr. Obata someone situation where he kept is it a

00:59:26 hundred million Ghana CD so-so in his on him so to speak and it became a matter

00:59:35 for the court and the court said if you say a political party is a private

00:59:40 entity you are wrong is a public entity so you can be prosecuted just as the

00:59:45 same way it can happen right so I will take a quick break and return for you

00:59:50 guys to get into that I also have the report on the commission of the inquiry

00:59:57 into payment from public funds arising from judgment debt justice yeah I power

01:00:03 the findings that he made and why he made a proposal for funding of political

01:00:09 parties why too much of our money is being wired into politics he mentions

01:00:15 the not deco from the Nkrumah era how they were being used to you know take

01:00:21 10% of contracts that are giving to ministers to fund their politics we're

01:00:27 going into elections can we be sure that the people who will be going into these

01:00:33 elections all the money they are getting from whatever sources they are putting

01:00:38 them in the bank and they really put them in the bank all right so this is a

01:00:42 woman whom we have known to have been in public office for the best part better

01:00:51 part of her life we have no history of her in private you know business from

01:00:58 2001 with president Kofor coming to also be appointed aviation minister and

01:01:06 coming through to all of this is that the reason we can't give her any excuse

01:01:12 for holding so much money with her she was the chairperson of the board of the

01:01:18 Ghana Cocoa processing company over that someone talks about how that entity is

01:01:24 also a conduit for big corruption and so on we'll be right back I've said it and

01:01:32 I'll repeat it again those who are coming to this administration thinking

01:01:37 that is an avenue for making a lot of money are going to be disappointed

01:01:43 they better go to the private sector that is where people make money right

01:01:59 you're welcome back you just had president Kofor there he had to repeat

01:02:05 this on a number of occasions and as you heard him himself he said he had to

01:02:09 repeat it now there are calls on him that this doesn't look right even before

01:02:16 investigations you have every right as a president not to have waited for even

01:02:22 this long and the comparison is being made with him and John Mahama whose

01:02:27 deputy you know minister only dreamt spoke was caught on tape dreaming of a

01:02:36 million dollars and he sucked her straight away now I come back and to

01:02:46 also let you know that we are still trying my producers tell me they keep

01:02:51 trying to get the NPP representation on the show but it does appear unless you

01:02:58 have a million dollars you are not interested in this discussion if you

01:03:01 belong to the NPP now I want to come to professor a PJ and then we look at it

01:03:08 from this perspective so I mentioned for example we know the very famous case of

01:03:14 the Republic versus Yibi and Avalli four in 2000 the Supreme Court had to be

01:03:23 invited into this matter where Obada Samoa chairman of the NDC you know was

01:03:29 in a situation keeping a hundred a hundred is it this million you know I'm

01:03:39 being told I'm being told to say that it was in the old cities so but it was

01:03:46 money really good money at the time and the issues came up and you would

01:03:51 remember how he himself spoke about how the NPP you know began to vilify him

01:03:59 about that situation and he said that those who were accusing him were being

01:04:07 hypocritical they were being hypocritical he said quote all political

01:04:14 leaders kept money in their houses because in politics you cannot function

01:04:20 in emergencies on the basis of issuing checks it is hypocritical for any

01:04:25 official of any political party to hold a holier-than-thou attitude that's to

01:04:31 tell you this is not exactly new then he cited an instance where Dan Bouchic

01:04:37 general secretary of the NPP was quoted in the media as saying that he had

01:04:41 adopted the semi constituency in the Bronco half a region and promised each

01:04:47 of the 105 polling stations a bicycle each you know the recently not too long

01:04:58 ago Freddie Blake promised to get a bus for each of the constituencies have we

01:05:04 as where that money was coming from in Jerry Rawlings's circumstances we had

01:05:11 the issue where there was the allegation about is it five million he came to see

01:05:18 it was two point something dollars million dollars is it that he accepted

01:05:25 from a batches government this money which bank would they have put it in

01:05:30 this for political purposes isn't it so we have we have these situations all and

01:05:37 again how different do you see the situation where politicians keep money

01:05:42 in their homes rather than put it in the bank what should happen and why

01:05:49 something I think we need to understand the dynamics of policies especially in

01:05:55 Africa where somebody I said the politicians are the comprado bourgeoisie

01:06:01 in other words we draw without money in their pockets so in that context

01:06:06 embezzlement corruption every and so on become the strategic essence of

01:06:12 governance and so people will use our political positions to embezzle

01:06:17 economic resources which in the end leads to the popularization or the what

01:06:25 somebody will call poverty production I'm not saying reduction or alleviation

01:06:30 of production where poverty is produced as a result of these processes and then

01:06:38 it leads to a situation where those who have been popularized will become

01:06:42 dependent on the ruler and that leads to what the politicians will call a

01:06:49 new patrimonial society where we are trying to promote a system of governance

01:06:56 based on whether the parliamentary style or the presidential style and so on but

01:07:02 still embedded in that are some local monarchical practices which tend to

01:07:08 create the impression that the president the ministers and so on need to be

01:07:15 placed at a higher pedestal and they are entitled to have some amount of money to

01:07:21 which they then dish out to the people when they could talk to them so this

01:07:27 kind of mentality has reigned and plagued our democracy and that is where

01:07:34 I think we should start we should look at as a basis for looking at this matter

01:07:41 now you rightly said that professor Dr. Obeda Samoa tried to justify the

01:07:50 practice saying that they need money and you can always go to the bank and so on

01:07:55 and so forth and then he also even by also referred to Dr. Keye Buzia during his

01:08:01 time that also happened when he also had some money stolen from his bedroom or

01:08:09 his house and so he tried to justify that it is not unusual practice that

01:08:15 should then lead us to ask the question how do we fund our politics so that there

01:08:23 will be funded political system and the practices will determine how we end up

01:08:28 being able to cure this defect which is plaguing the political system so CDD has

01:08:37 done a very good job on that of course you've talked about how much people need

01:08:42 to fund political activities and even more recently the majority leader in

01:08:48 Parliament said that you need about as it four million dollars or so to

01:08:52 organize and execute a political campaign for the office of a president so

01:08:58 the question is how do we get this money and we supposed to have laws which are

01:09:06 supposed to regulate campaign financing to me that is where the problem is that

01:09:11 is where it starts from because then people have to source for money from

01:09:16 different avenues and mind you we are getting close to the political heats

01:09:24 coming to the world because next year we have elections and already this year

01:09:29 primaries are being held for both presidential positions and parliamentary

01:09:35 positions so that needs to be settled by the end of the year for both parties and

01:09:39 then the real elections or the real deal starts next year so people need money so

01:09:48 politicians are seeking for money those who want to influence politics from

01:09:53 behind are ready to bargain and to give money to people who are interested

01:10:00 becoming creating this further cycle of godfatherism as we have in Nigeria it is

01:10:07 creeping into our politics so in that situation the Sisila Adapai thing is not

01:10:13 something new and it will remain as it is so long as we are able to deal with

01:10:19 the campaign financing issue and also so long as the asset declaration regime

01:10:25 becomes a very weak mechanism in the fight against corruption it is just there

01:10:30 on paper all right and also need to look at the effectiveness of Yoko Yoko has

01:10:38 played a very minimal role in trying to deal with such matters and so we need to

01:10:46 tackle the issues based on law based on how we reform our political landscape in

01:10:53 some countries they will say that the government will finance political

01:10:58 parties depending on the number of the percentage of votes you win as a way of

01:11:03 controlling campaign financing so maybe we need to look at that issue as well

01:11:11 yeah but the bottom line is we need to consider coming back to Sisila Adapai

01:11:17 incident where the money came from and what the money was being used for I

01:11:22 think we can we can get to the bottom of this how do you want that how do you

01:11:25 want us to get to the bottom of it how do we get to that well to get to that I

01:11:31 think I'm we all mentioned some of the institution that's right we have OSPI, SRAJ and Yoko

01:11:38 among others I think that we we need to at least we can go back to SRAJ we go to

01:11:45 SRAJ and ask for the asset declaration documents right of Mrs. Adapai that will

01:11:54 clearly tell us what she brought into politics and how much she has earned as a

01:11:59 politician right and the GRA the Ghana Revenue Authority should also be telling

01:12:04 us if she has been filing her tax returns where the disclosures of her

01:12:09 incomes anywhere near these figures that would be important to ask that is if she

01:12:16 has been filing now if they were close to that we want to know was tax assessed

01:12:24 and how much was a tax assessed if some people to a complicit at the GRA we

01:12:29 should we should want to know if she took this money from bank which bank was

01:12:33 it or took some of it from a bank which bank was it the officers of the bank

01:12:38 they had an obligation to alert the FIC about suspicious money did they do that

01:12:45 if they didn't do that this ban to should also come in for some question

01:12:50 isn't it if tax was not paid on that this exact amount GRA has a right to ask

01:12:58 that the money that was not assessed there should be an additional assessment

01:13:02 so that she will pay which particular you know tax office has been handling

01:13:08 her file it's very easy to know the president can quickly ask of these

01:13:12 things and it will be done and she's obviously a high net worth individual

01:13:17 for tax purposes so obviously it will be handled in that unit of the GRA the

01:13:27 undisclosed or under reported income and the unpaid taxes we need the money if

01:13:33 the money is genuine money we need all the taxes paid on it now let me I'm

01:13:38 coming to you some George but let me come to Mary now Mary I had mentioned

01:13:42 earlier about these developments in our country that we keep complaining

01:13:47 but we don't seem to do anything about them over there someone writes on the

01:13:52 issue of indiscipline and corruption in our polity and in page 598 of his book

01:14:00 which I have him in my hand the political history of Ghana 1950 to 2013

01:14:07 the experience of a non-conformist dr. Obed yeah as someone just a bit of it

01:14:13 indulge me he says government corruption read its ugly head soon after the CPP

01:14:20 came to power we recall the Jibo Commission probe of 1956 which cited a

01:14:29 yk-jin the managing director of the cocoa processing company CPC for corruption

01:14:35 and also a led government complicity we also recall the a Kanya a Kanya

01:14:40 Commission report of 1964 on irregularities in the issues of import

01:14:46 license and the Abraham Coombs and report of 1966 disclosing an array of

01:14:51 civil evil causes of the shortages of commodities for which 35 GNTC officials

01:14:59 were sacked just before in Krumah was overthrown we further recall the report

01:15:04 of the governor before independence of payment in 1953 of a bribe by Casa John a

01:15:12 construction company to Jay a Bremer the Minister of Communications and Works he

01:15:19 was made to report to the police a commission of a commission of inquiry

01:15:23 headed by say Akiko sir investigated this and other allegations made by

01:15:28 Bremer against members of government including dr. Nkrumah most of which

01:15:32 could not be established or proved the opposition alleged corruption in the

01:15:37 cocoa marketing board the Industrial Development Corporation the

01:15:42 Agricultural Development Corporation the State Housing Corporation among

01:15:46 others then he comes to tell us about several other committees JJ about in

01:15:53 Krumah's assets the Nadeko limited you know which became a conduit for taking

01:16:01 10% of contract for purposes of funding political parties he reminds us of the

01:16:07 venerable Sam Okudjeto now in the Council of State who in

01:16:12 Parliament you know spoke about monies in the in a similar fashion and got

01:16:17 punished because he will not come as it were

01:16:23 cooperate with the committee he talks about STC the CNTC I loan matter he

01:16:31 talks about the very recent matters also so we have a long history of some of

01:16:39 these things going on why do you think we can succeed in checking these things

01:16:45 and they continue to happen because no public officer should be keeping a

01:16:50 hundred a million dollars and 300 euros in their bedroom

01:16:56 oh exactly so and if you are chronically you read about I remember the example

01:17:07 and the bridge he went to commission if you remember that so this is not new at

01:17:13 all what you have said cease to establish the fact that in our

01:17:18 democracy we have done things the wrong way of the politicians have allowed the

01:17:25 wrong things to happen and the citizens have stopped a loop to allow these to

01:17:30 happen it is also a result of a week critical mass of the citizenry and as

01:17:37 well because of the powers that derive from the Constitution for the various

01:17:43 appointees that we put in there and let me say that this happens because of the

01:17:49 weak political will to fight corruption it also again happens because we do not

01:17:57 have a very good political financing regime and so if you have been part of

01:18:04 this process you would remember that in the past year or there about so society

01:18:10 is come together through an initiative to begin to look at the cost of

01:18:16 elections because of elections which then breeds some of these actions

01:18:23 ensuring that some political actors who are behind the scene are pulling the

01:18:29 strings yeah the CDD's investigation an important intervention the CDD's

01:18:35 investigation shows that presidential campaigns cost a hundred million in Ghana

01:18:41 hundred million dollars to have a successful presidential campaign a

01:18:45 hundred million dollars you need four million Ghana CDs to be able to do a

01:18:50 successful parliamentary campaign exactly so that is what I was coming to

01:18:57 so if we have monetized the process so much and we have allowed this to go on

01:19:04 on nobody gets punished for some of these actions and now something the

01:19:12 reality is that the ordinary citizen has also come to appreciate the fact that

01:19:17 they are not getting the fair share of the national cake and so they are using

01:19:23 this opportunity to also then bargain so in some instances you would realize that

01:19:29 some communities are bargaining that if you do not get us this we will not vote

01:19:33 others are bargaining that if you do not give me a car I will not vote so the person who is

01:19:39 interested in political office is not getting voted based on the amount of

01:19:44 money they are able to make and to crown it a law the EC law on political party

01:19:54 financing is not that clear and the sanctioning around it is also very weak

01:19:59 but then we are talking about giving actions to ensure that political parties

01:20:04 are in compliance this is weak so this is why they drive for a political

01:20:09 financing regime that takes away the issues around people giving people

01:20:18 money that cannot be accounted for and so people would have to go and stash them

01:20:22 in their houses I'm not saying that's the case for the

01:20:26 Honorable Minister but just like you read copiously from the Honorable Obedasamwa

01:20:33 this we have heard continues to happen because we have a regime that is weak

01:20:39 we have a regime that is not as robust as we should see it and we do not see a

01:20:45 lot of sanctions happening within this space so going forward we have looked at

01:20:51 how do we get this change that people who are contributing to the party's

01:20:57 financing begin to do so like it happens in other places we were all here in this

01:21:03 country sometime back when Obama the former president of America decided to

01:21:08 contest for elections and therein his campaigning and the financing regime

01:21:13 that they put out there people were contributing two dollars and the rest

01:21:17 and there is a cap on how much anybody can contribute if this is not done we

01:21:22 continue to make we would continue to talk civil society speaks about it we

01:21:29 would even get the political party financing regime may be changed but then

01:21:35 if they will stop this it's not that and if we are not functioning people such as

01:21:42 what is happening now then we would continue to have the situation not

01:21:47 change and so for me I believe that as we have evolved as a country one of the

01:21:54 things that has come up for us that is good is the OSP ads which is to cure the

01:22:03 injustices which were perpetrated because the attorney generals or the

01:22:08 generals attorney generals will say they cannot prosecute their own and we did

01:22:12 this if you look at the OSP at the regulation the regulation at all the

01:22:20 allies to trace and inform and the regulation 20 we talked about

01:22:25 declaration of income and properties which is very intrusive a must thing it

01:22:31 looks at politically exposed person it looks at all the interested parties

01:22:37 husband girlfriend boyfriend whoever has an interest in the person who is

01:22:44 politically exposed is supposed to also be looked at when it comes to issues

01:22:49 around and a significant part of that a significant part of that is that in that

01:22:59 new law as in the OSP you know the difficulty that shrad was the body to

01:23:04 investigate corruption abuse of office and the rest of them and the Supreme

01:23:09 Court in the Anani Richard Anani case said that to have investigate abuse of

01:23:15 office you need an individual complainant shrad cannot say I'm

01:23:20 listening to radio I have had some publication I want to follow it up so

01:23:24 the important thing for the OSP is that we have cured that problem by saying the

01:23:30 OSP can on its own just get up by hearing of this information moving and

01:23:37 begin to check on the person's wealth and whether the money they have can be

01:23:44 attributable as in the Constitution requires whether it is attributable to

01:23:49 their income it is attributable to a gift they had or it's a loan or its

01:23:54 inheritance otherwise it is wrongful money wrongfully acquired and the state

01:24:00 must collect it

01:24:03 and for that they do not need a complainant that's right and they could

01:24:10 even use newspaper publications so in this case we have a copious newspaper

01:24:15 publication and I just checked the OSP site you would see a lot of citizens

01:24:21 making complaints and that is a baseline for them so the OSP can go into this and

01:24:27 if you look at the form that was developed per the regulation for

01:24:33 people to then provide evidence you would see that it will cure a lot of the

01:24:40 mischief that continues to happen as a people and we all know that the OSP has

01:24:47 started doing some good work around prosecuting some people if it is

01:24:52 important we know in the past three months he called a person who people

01:24:57 thought he wouldn't have so the OSP's independence to do this is very clear

01:25:03 however we must also say that the role of the citizen in this regard is

01:25:09 important that whatever they see if there is more information that is not

01:25:15 available to the OSP or to the general public which others have they should

01:25:20 make this available to support the process again we believe that as we go

01:25:26 forward the OSP should be allowed so there shouldn't be any unseen voices

01:25:32 from behind threatening them not to pursue what they are doing because we

01:25:37 know this happens we know it continues to happen the president should allow

01:25:42 this process to go on if he doesn't have the courage to do the right thing we

01:25:49 are very confident that the OSP would take this up what do you mean what do

01:25:56 you mean by if he doesn't have the courage to do the right thing what's

01:25:58 right thing are you

01:26:06 when when when when I say investigated the contracts for sale a BAJ the public

01:26:15 procurement authority you drew the president's attention and without any

01:26:20 delay he made him step aside and after Shad was done with it work he sucked him

01:26:25 and then you proceeded with a second petition to have all the board members

01:26:30 including himself also investigated so the president has a record that you you

01:26:36 will not say is that bad isn't it in one instance in many more of the instances

01:26:42 which you can also speak to there are many instances where the president has

01:26:46 fled people were being investigated because another institution has

01:26:52 investigated them without any evidence there have been instances where we have

01:26:57 asked and in the case of the health minister when they put me be issues came

01:27:04 the coffin audits and others they have been so many instances where the

01:27:10 president has excuse me to say a fat a loop or not listen or he dead the call

01:27:19 of civil society and the citizenry when it comes to some of these things but

01:27:24 then this is so glaring this is so blatant anybody having 1 million dollars

01:27:30 in their house that 1 million dollars getting missing and they're not even

01:27:35 realizing it something for me if I tell this it is getting missing from my house

01:27:43 that you mentioned you mentioned you mentioned FIC the issue of interagency

01:27:58 collaboration is usually very weak in this instance we have clarity

01:28:03 strange went to court and we know what happened in the instance you mentioned

01:28:08 let us see some very clear collaboration happening and the even the GRE comes to

01:28:15 play in this instance but the FIC you go shrug and the OSP should help each other

01:28:21 to ensure that this is done as per the shocking and done very well and we

01:28:27 believe that in their strengths or in the collective of their strength they

01:28:32 would be able to do a lot more all right thank you very much I know my last and

01:28:37 I will need a very brief from you we're looking at the holistic picture and I

01:28:42 just spoke about the justice our powers report on inordinate judgment debts

01:28:49 which we all know we know the facts but sometimes we play the ostrich the

01:28:54 politicians cook this judgment debts and they go and take huge amounts of monies

01:28:59 in millions and of dollars and euros just to oil their their campaign

01:29:05 machines they flee the country and the judgment debt commissioner is a bit

01:29:11 hesitant but gives you setting indications and says that we must look

01:29:16 at a political party funding bill to check some of this I will have the two

01:29:23 I'll have some George and Dr. Champon look at that but my question to you is

01:29:30 that you have been on the backs of governments for the need to pass the

01:29:38 conduct of public officers bill I remember many many years ago is over a

01:29:44 decade now they can't seem to pass it because then the asset declaration one

01:29:49 we have now we all know it's it's not effective

01:29:52 occupy Ghana has been writing to the presidency and insisting that the new

01:29:59 law should be passed and made effective more particularly for purposes of

01:30:05 verification of the assets declared I remember when you organize a meeting

01:30:11 about six years ago your contention was that even in the Rollins regime you

01:30:18 declare the assets and it is verified it is this publicity it is gazetted so all

01:30:24 members of the public can see but in our now democracy better than the Rollins

01:30:29 PNDC regime you don't do the verification process and there's no

01:30:35 publication now the IMF has made this an important condition for what we are

01:30:42 getting and the government says it is committed to passing it how soon do you

01:30:47 think this will be passed I'm saying we all need to see but this is one

01:30:53 advocacy we would not let down because this law in this current state in

01:30:59 fact if it's passed that's not depart too much from what exists when it comes

01:31:04 to the issues around assets declaration and so it is a good thing that it was

01:31:09 not passed in the last parliament because it went through an extensive

01:31:14 process but then when it comes to issues of verification and also publication

01:31:18 this is not done and when you look at the best practice OECD and also pay the

01:31:24 on card and when you look at even the Convention on preventing corrupt and

01:31:29 combating corruption today a you the benchmark they want us to have

01:31:33 robust legislation and these include verification and publication and also

01:31:40 monitoring of such assets unfortunately that is not what the Copo bill is giving

01:31:46 us so now that someone else is keeping us in line I believe then the

01:31:53 discussion would gain them come up so that we look at the issues around

01:32:00 robustness and robustness would only be when we have verification if people just

01:32:04 dump their assets and we do not verify them that is not enough and the auditor

01:32:09 general currently tells us that they look at the assets so when assets are

01:32:14 declared they open them and look at them what we need to see is the publication

01:32:19 of the assets and we say so because those who put themselves up for public

01:32:24 office have no business wanting to have secret dealings and wanting to keep

01:32:30 something about themselves private all right we know they have their private

01:32:34 life but in the instances where you can acquire wealth and we would do not know

01:32:40 where those are coming from it is a matter of agency that such people both

01:32:45 their wealth and their liabilities are declared and published for the good

01:32:49 people of Ghana to know and so it is heartwarming that the IMF has done this

01:32:55 because we know for sure that the government indicated a true cabinet that

01:33:00 they were not going to pay attention to this though so we are happy that at least

01:33:04 our advocacy which didn't make sense to government has made sense to the IMF

01:33:11 which is now calling them to attention. There must be verification and publication

01:33:16 or otherwise we don't have a... without which we believe the bill in its current state

01:33:25 even though it makes it... all right thank you thank you very much Mary let me come to Sam George here so I'm

01:33:31 getting a lot of messages from well-meaning Ghanaians and they are

01:33:36 saying why are we trying to kid with the woman and sort of as if an attempt to

01:33:41 protect her somewhat and you know a distinguished statesman's view is that

01:33:48 like I mentioned earlier she's been known to be in public life so we

01:33:54 shouldn't make us any excuses for her. In 2001 she was appointed the chairperson

01:34:03 of the board of cocoa processing company. She had been special assistant to

01:34:10 President Kofor. She was moved from the board in 2005 and made the deputy

01:34:18 minister for water resources, works and housing. So she's been living

01:34:24 on your funds as a public people so please pay attention. In 2007 she was

01:34:33 made a substantive minister to the end of the Kofor administration in 2008. So

01:34:40 we know of course she's been contesting elections in Bantama and winning until

01:34:46 is it Kofor you know is it he unseated her or so and she's presently an

01:34:54 important minister. In 2017 President Kofor nominated her for the position of

01:35:00 Minister of Aviation. President Kofor, Minister of Aviation and yeah so she's

01:35:10 been around and living on public funds. What difference does that make? It makes a

01:35:18 whole world of difference and for me that's why I get the context in the

01:35:23 historical facts you brought to bear. Okay. But that doesn't for me change the

01:35:29 cracks of what the conversation is today. The conversation today is it was bad in

01:35:34 the past. We have changed governments for that reason. We had a presidential

01:35:39 candidate who was voted massively into office on the back of a promise that if

01:35:44 you want to make money don't come into my government stay in the private sector.

01:35:48 On the back of a promise that said we were sitting on money or the previous

01:35:53 government was sitting on money and the people of Ghana were hungry. On the back

01:35:56 of a man who said he was not corrupt look at my age I have achieved I don't

01:36:01 need to come and steal money we have the men and all our people are wealthy. That

01:36:05 was the story that was sold to Ghanians. Now we sit in a government where we see

01:36:12 this and you see let's not kid ourselves and that this administration this is not

01:36:17 the first time this is happening. There were allegations this one has gone to

01:36:22 court and is proven because of court but there were allegations that when the

01:36:26 deputy minister, deputy chief of staff's house got burned the current minister for

01:36:29 lands and natural resources Abu Jinapo there were issues of monies that were

01:36:33 stolen and the fire was a cover-up allegations. Then there was the allegation

01:36:38 of the Western regional minister Kwabena Oshida Akuda that his driver ran away with

01:36:43 17 million Ghana cities to Ivory Coast. That also that was just last year so

01:36:48 this is not the first of its kind under the Akufo-Addo administration. Except that all of

01:36:52 these have been denied. Fantastic. In this instance for whatever reason the minister

01:36:59 decides to go to court. But you forget one thing and it's important I bring it in

01:37:05 also here. Eugene Ahen's wife decided there was to be a divorce or something

01:37:12 like that and then suddenly the assets that she was trying to acquire. Of course all of these

01:37:17 things have been denied but someone that whose background was known you know he

01:37:21 was a non-entity so to speak and within a very short time being a communication

01:37:27 director at the presidency all of this was attributed to her and a lot has been

01:37:32 now hashed you know so on. Yes so you see so it shows you that there is a certain

01:37:38 culture and and maybe people are asking why would the minister go if it was ill

01:37:43 gotten well maybe it's just the arrogance of power and the fact that she

01:37:47 felt well this could fly under the radar and I could just teach this house helps

01:37:51 a lesson. It is not to say that that legitimizes the money because legitimacy

01:37:55 of the money can only be established if you can show us the earnings or the

01:38:00 inheritance and the appropriate tax paid on it. And given the resume of this

01:38:05 minister that you have read to us there is no reference to him in private

01:38:10 practice to end that kind of money. People have tried to bring in a husband

01:38:14 I think that we've established with the... He's an architect he's said to be wealthy

01:38:18 and we are also told that her late mother was a queen in Assantimansu. Can anybody show us

01:38:24 the last project the husband as an architect was involved in what was the

01:38:30 value of the project? Well the money is for her it's not for her husband. Absolutely so

01:38:33 that that argument is moot if it is her late mother who bequeathed her gold bars

01:38:37 gifts. Where's the gift tax? Where's the chain of custody? I mean and

01:38:42 look even with jewelry you ought to take it the safe thing to do would be to take

01:38:46 it to a bank for safekeeping and pay for it and pay for the services of the bank.

01:38:50 So look where we sit now is that we have a president who ought to who promised

01:38:56 us one thing but like I've always said this government has been soundbite

01:39:00 presidency because it's about the soundbites the things that make the news

01:39:04 and but they don't walk the talk and that is where the problem of the Ghanaian

01:39:08 people are that at this point in time something where we are at the lowest ebb

01:39:15 of our economic space like in the economic space we are at the lowest we

01:39:21 have to beg to borrow we have to be to beg to be considered to qualify to

01:39:26 borrow that's how insolvent we are and then you have individuals holding this

01:39:31 world and in my earlier submission I said this is just your baller minister

01:39:34 the other people in government or associated to government that we've had

01:39:40 rumors of the kinds of things that they do don't forget that madams you see that

01:39:45 the past name has never come in the radar of issues around corruption in

01:39:49 this government and then we find this so those who there are proven cases of

01:39:56 corruption that have been cleaned and whitewashed by the president by

01:40:00 investigations either by investigative journalists or by by whistleblowers

01:40:04 either ex-spouses and all that have been whitewashed by the president you can

01:40:08 then imagine what they are holding and you then begin to ask yourself why the

01:40:14 city is falling and the economy cannot hold why the fundamentals are weak and

01:40:19 the exchange rate is exposing us is because that's very people in government

01:40:23 who ought to know better I rather hold in the dollar and you see it doesn't

01:40:28 surprise me and and something if you have friends in government anybody who

01:40:32 knows any top MPP person knows that when they want to do a doye and they want to

01:40:37 dash through money they don't dash through CD they dash through dollar they dash through FX

01:40:41 because that is what they spent that is what they carry around and that is the

01:40:46 problem of our country that the very people who are supposed to help us build

01:40:50 the banking system and clean up the mess are actually the mess that we need to

01:40:55 clean up and for me what do you expect GRE and all of these entities to be

01:41:00 doing and how swiftly should all be done you already disappointed that over 48

01:41:07 hours the president is mute so the president I have no hope in him I mean

01:41:12 the president is a lost case when it comes to fighting the president can't

01:41:15 fight from the present can suck it because the president would in sucking

01:41:19 had a present we open himself up because I mean people will begin to talk so the

01:41:24 present can touch it but I expect the OSP to begin to show us that he's

01:41:30 independent and will work on this that you hurry that you hurry will try to but

01:41:34 you know the jury themselves about two weeks ago I brought the Safari tech case

01:41:38 against them they were supposed to respond to public accounts on when is

01:41:41 they they have failed to because the jury itself is is is rotten so how does

01:41:46 the jury even even handle it so but this matter is one that the special

01:41:51 prosecutor he needs no complaints we should have seen a letter by now

01:41:56 inviting the woman for questioning I don't understand why the OSP has not

01:42:02 done that woman say there are some inconsistencies and she will clear them

01:42:05 in due course that is that is fanciful English that has been employed as PR spin

01:42:11 that we will not buy look my 80-year-old son will not buy this so nobody nobody

01:42:16 should nobody should stop stop the spin the best thing to do the honorable thing

01:42:21 to do if she had any on her left will be to first and foremost resign and then

01:42:25 that statement should be saying that she is willing to cooperate with law

01:42:28 enforcement authorities who are willing to investigate it is your solution that

01:42:33 in the process if the money is legitimate is she would subject herself

01:42:36 to investigation to establish a new is your expectation that in the process all

01:42:40 these cars and houses that have been confiscated from the house helps that

01:42:46 stool then will become property of the state they ought to be property of the

01:42:49 state at this point in time because you see when a thief steals from a thief and

01:42:54 I'm not calling anybody a thief here because until anybody is proving guilty

01:42:58 everybody's presumed innocence that's the position of our love I'm just saying

01:43:01 that they also general presumption is when a thief steals from a thief God

01:43:06 doesn't get offended and so if mantis if my god know the vex so at this point in

01:43:11 time if the value if we cannot authenticate that the source of the

01:43:17 funds that were stolen to acquire those items are not state funds the state

01:43:22 should confiscate them until the owner is able to establish legitimacy of

01:43:28 ownership right and I'm going to dr. thierry champon and and you see it's not

01:43:35 lost on me that it's important to take this beyond this and that's why I refer

01:43:39 to all of these things and I've spent my time reading some of them again but some

01:43:44 George the the the CDD did it checks and says you need a hundred million dollars

01:43:49 you know to be able to to do a campaign that can win you the presidency

01:43:55 absolutely where do the politicians get this money it says you need four million

01:44:01 Ghana cities to win as an end sometimes even more including including naturing

01:44:06 the constituency we see an average we see all the things that are done so tell

01:44:12 me you where do you get that money let me put you on the spot where do you get

01:44:17 that well but I've said this before on a previous engagement on your platform

01:44:21 that we we have we have a what way did I is we have a supposed fight against

01:44:29 corruption because you see if in in the populace but Mary made reference to

01:44:36 alluded to the fact succinctly that the populace feel that the electoral cycle

01:44:41 is the only time where they can actually get a share of the national cake because

01:44:46 the political class have created a setting gulf between ourselves and the

01:44:51 populace and and we have arrogated to ourselves the largest of state and so

01:44:57 you have corrupt businessmen and corrupt business interests that will corrupt

01:45:03 politicians fund them but that money doesn't necessarily sit with politicians

01:45:09 it has to trickle down for you to then get office and then so it's an endless

01:45:14 cycle you just have to have been in a scene north to have seen of course I

01:45:19 didn't have to be there I saw some of the footage absolutely and and look what

01:45:24 a lame excuse the one of these guys in the MPP was giving when they were caught

01:45:28 in camera giving money to the people and he said they are come from a long

01:45:31 distance and they need to give them money I said I've seen not as clear

01:45:36 example of why money will be ordered commission does not put your polling

01:45:41 station far away from where you live so you know you know something if you look

01:45:45 at the the way the monies have been reported in the case you then realize

01:45:50 that what the minister apparently may be doing and that's my own deduction I'm

01:45:54 not saying that that's factual is but I do think building building building a

01:45:58 storehouse for her tomorrow and her children and then also building the one

01:46:02 for political expediency so there's the millions of cities that's the one you

01:46:06 even I see not crossing what I didn't see dollars but in the dollars we used

01:46:09 to buy up by buy a future for children but you see the point is and I

01:46:14 understand that of real estate businesses where a lot of the money the

01:46:18 real estate business in Ghana is money laundering if our authorities want to

01:46:24 deal with it they will deal with it the cost of real estate in Ghana is not

01:46:28 justifiable by any stretch you keep seeing all these new high-rise

01:46:33 buildings going up and they are selling them for half a million a million

01:46:36 dollars and they keep buying and buying amongst themselves so I have dirty money

01:46:40 to clean I put up a real estate property you also have dirty money you come and

01:46:44 buy the property for me then automatically your money becomes clean

01:46:47 then tomorrow you also start building your own then I come back and back and

01:46:50 we are just cleaning the money let me go to I didn't really get an answer directly

01:46:54 to my question I asked you but but you didn't answer that I asked how are you

01:47:00 going to prosecute your campaign when you believe that you need more than 4

01:47:03 million Ghana cities and the law right so so look this is this is the joke and

01:47:14 how do you think we can we can check these things and I've taking us back to

01:47:21 far away before CPP after CPP CPP began and there were market women who are

01:47:28 contributing fiscal money to help in Krumah you know win elections then after

01:47:33 you won elections later on you know we knew how things had become and so it's

01:47:39 no more market women thing this 10% on the contract we know we keep saying

01:47:45 proverbial there is a thing it is there people contractors who are doing

01:47:49 contract today they are paying and they are paying to individual pockets and

01:47:54 parties are keeping money parties in government more particularly know they

01:48:00 are so wealthy just yesterday they couldn't organize a Congress once they

01:48:04 come into office they are able to organize a flamboyant you know Congress

01:48:09 with all their people coming from all over the place so we know these things

01:48:13 what is happening to us as a country why can't we fight this

01:48:18 I mean it's good that we've got the historical antecedents from a coma to

01:48:24 cover do say and all the way to remember the famous a very nice a good case

01:48:31 before time with the 10% you know kick back and no but I think you asked some

01:48:37 also and and and and and you and you just hold on just a second for me let me

01:48:41 let me tell you this that a government loses power and contractors have already

01:48:47 paid 10% on the contracts they got the new government that comes in will call

01:48:52 the contractors to renegotiate and in the sort of renegotiation you must

01:48:57 promise to give them another kickback so if you don't pay extra you know kick

01:49:02 back they won't fund your contract this is what we have in this country yeah we

01:49:07 are dancing around the bush and it was quite interesting when you ask some me

01:49:13 also the question about how does he find his campaign as an MP and we didn't

01:49:18 really get this straightforward answer it to that so okay we were diagnosed the

01:49:24 problem but none of us are really speaking to the how to fix it right

01:49:31 because we know that yes the campaign is financed by political entrepreneurs

01:49:40 businessmen that would give you money buy motorbikes by cars you name it an

01:49:47 expectation that when you come into power you're going to get you know

01:49:51 they're going to get something out of that so as a result you see a lot of

01:49:56 dodgy money in the system and one of the avenues that we we've talked about is

01:50:03 you know this whole real estate thing there's a lot of you know quote-unquote

01:50:08 washing that is happening within that that space so the issue of campaign

01:50:14 financing absolutely important but I don't think both of the two parties are

01:50:19 really committed to fighting it I don't get the sense that there's a real

01:50:25 interest deep down to address it because if there were we wouldn't be in this

01:50:32 issue and even if there were there are other constitutional means to sort of

01:50:37 you know check some of these issues or constitutional reform so for example one

01:50:43 of the argument that's been made is instead of this fed past the post

01:50:47 electoral system why don't we have proportional representation and give

01:50:52 room for some of the smaller parties depending on your share of the national

01:50:56 vote to get a certain proportion a percentage of the seats in Parliament

01:51:03 because that in a way mitigates or reduces the tendency for people to to

01:51:09 corrupt these these people there's also the big issue of the asset declaration

01:51:17 because like we've all indicated there is these monies that are paid as kickbacks

01:51:23 etc and they are never in the official financial system these monies are not

01:51:30 put in a bank it's money that will be sitting and the people's you know pillows

01:51:36 and bedrooms and you name it in that regard and I think the conduct of the

01:51:44 public of the says act the new one and one which the IMF is pushing for as part

01:51:52 of the conditionality that gonna go to meet under the new program is very

01:51:57 important because when you read that IMF document on page 22 or paragraph 43 it

01:52:04 says that's a good thing that the performance in government effectiveness

01:52:10 regulatory quality and control of corruption very important have

01:52:15 deteriorated over the last 10 years that is the reality that we're dealing with

01:52:21 so part of the solution is through this new conduct of public officers act and

01:52:28 that would help address some of the weaknesses that we have in the existing

01:52:33 asset declaration regime as part of that there's also even meant to be a whole

01:52:39 diagnostic assessment of you know how corruption plays out in the broader

01:52:44 governance architecture of the of the country the last point I want to make is

01:52:51 the issue of institutional effectiveness and institutional collaboration and

01:52:57 Mary talked about that but far of thing you get many of our regulatory

01:53:04 investigative bodies sometimes working in silos and you don't get those you

01:53:10 know information sharing cross-idea being you know fertilized across the

01:53:16 board and that's something that we've got to look at in a bit of addressing

01:53:21 some of the gaps in there but I think that the big thing is really about

01:53:26 campaign financing and I don't get the impression that both of our two parties

01:53:31 are really committed to fighting that in the country. Okay thank you very much

01:53:39 I'm being told that the OSP has been petitioned on this case I suppose then

01:53:44 that that would be the crusaders against corruption body well the OSP doesn't

01:53:52 actually need your petition it is charge that will need a petition to be able to

01:53:55 go into it somebody says elsewhere the petitions would have been in the

01:54:01 thousands at all of these places yes you live in Ghana where some people have

01:54:08 selected a group of people and expecting that they will be the only ones who will

01:54:12 be talking about everything and anything when it happens but they just sit there

01:54:16 quietly and watching they won't do anything about it some of your messages

01:54:20 here and and prof before I take a break and return to the the next issue I'll

01:54:26 come to you if you have any final comments to make on this matter Samuel

01:54:29 Adler says even the ministers constituting the government don't trust

01:54:35 the government strategy and the strategist they therefore keep their

01:54:39 hard money under they therefore keep their hard money under their bed a thing

01:54:45 that used to happen before the 90s for those saying she had worked for so long

01:54:50 I guess she was paid on the table top

01:54:55 Harry Su Lamini says I just hope this issue will not be politicized to confuse

01:55:02 us an investigation really needs to commence 1 million dollars if genuinely

01:55:08 obtained I don't think there is a problem but otherwise laws must work the

01:55:16 house health case is purely criminal and so the laws have to work well the house

01:55:23 elves are those who are helping you to discover this whether they did wrong or

01:55:27 not call instead they say again I tell you it's easier for a camel to go

01:55:32 through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom

01:55:36 of God Matthew 1924 if a minister of state keeps this money in his in her

01:55:44 house it raises a lot of questions miles kill says nothing positive is going to

01:55:53 come out of this because the laws of the land protect them so let me just look

01:55:59 for my bed and sleep because if we are really serious a country by now she

01:56:06 would be sucked from her office but no well miles the thing is that you don't

01:56:12 go to sleep you voted the president the president is there to execute your power

01:56:16 the president doesn't have a power that you didn't give them their members of

01:56:20 Parliament all of them the people in government they are wielding a power the

01:56:24 Constitution says it's yours so don't sit down quiet as a citizen and say go

01:56:30 check my somewhere that's a certain Ghanaian attitude which is bad someone

01:56:35 has sent a message elsewhere the presidency would have been surrounded

01:56:39 this morning with a lot of demonstrators and the president would have acted Joe

01:56:44 jr. says a by day Libra on a sites as a by day Libra on a site I've I visited a

01:56:52 by day Libra on a site I visited told me someone just stole seven thousand five

01:56:59 hundred from his room I was shell-shocked people have a lot stashed

01:57:06 somewhere this woman holds a public position which is why it's loud people

01:57:14 have a lot inside this by day Libra is entitled to keep his money please small

01:57:21 seven thousand I once said that I even doubt if Bank of Ghana can secure 1

01:57:26 million dollars from their reserve immediately Manche Ghana says in a

01:57:32 serious country where the leader is accountable to the people she will be

01:57:36 investigated and allow the process to work

01:57:40 Kwame Abua these same corrupt politicians are begging us to accept an

01:57:45 amount of one CD 20 pesos as feeding per kid in our schools okay so I can I can

01:57:56 understand I've got I've got a lot more of your messages I will share them right

01:58:02 away let me hear if prof has any final comments as to how this should be dealt

01:58:09 with as if anybody had an option to ensure that this matter was looked into

01:58:15 hello prof yes I think that we certainly need to look at the assess the

01:58:25 clarifying regime for me is very important and we did some work on that

01:58:30 hoping that we could easily assess a copy and to be able to tell what is

01:58:35 happening so the situation where a charge has been prevented from

01:58:41 initiating cases on its own this also needs to be addressed so that in this

01:58:45 case they can easily take up the matter and then resort to the assess the

01:58:51 question regime and see what is going on in any case though certainly be a

01:58:56 complaint to be launched before the foreshadow so that we'll get to start

01:59:02 from there having said that I also want to say that there are two theories that

01:59:07 we can we can use to assess to determine why the money is stashed in Madame

01:59:14 Cecilia the person at home one is to prepare for campaigning next year the

01:59:19 other could be that the party power is thinking that it's likely to lose the

01:59:28 elections therefore people are finding ways to stash money wherever they want

01:59:33 to stash it as much as they can so that if there are no more political power

01:59:37 there can be something they can or maybe she's actually holding the money for

01:59:42 their party is not hers exactly yes so that could be the case and also was

01:59:47 going to take account the fact that nowadays a bit difficult to send money

01:59:51 abroad and stash it in foreign banks even if you can do that there is some

01:59:55 sort of transparency process is going on which could easily more easily expose

02:00:01 you so we have situations where a batch of sandwiches money have been returned

02:00:06 to Nigeria so so people are little more cautious about sending money abroad and

02:00:12 so they're investing this into real estate in the country especially at this

02:00:16 moment where they know that the assets declaration regime is weak and then

02:00:21 there was this question about some of these agencies acting in silos as Mary

02:00:28 had already pointed out and it's also deliberate so as not to get it to the

02:00:33 bottom of some of these matters I personally took leave to work on the

02:00:37 Ghana case tracking system and so the system that was supposed to you know

02:00:43 try to bridge these gaps and to allow the agency especially Legal Aid

02:00:49 Commission the Ghana police Attorney General's office the course and so on to

02:00:54 work more collaboratively together to be able to ensure delivery of criminal

02:01:01 justice in a more expeditious manner but after a few years after the project was

02:01:06 completed it has more or less become a white elephant and so if we really want

02:01:12 to fight corruption we need to look at these factors and it's also interesting

02:01:19 that mr. George did not respond to your question I think is very important

02:01:23 because it comes down to corruption it comes down to campaign financing issues

02:01:30 and we know how politicians take advantage of such situation and it leads

02:01:36 to that kind of unfortunate collaboration between criminals and

02:01:40 politicians which leads to a situation where it becomes difficult to identify

02:01:47 or to draw the line between who is a criminal who is a politician.

02:01:53 It's very unfortunate for our political dispensation.

02:01:55 Okay.

02:01:56 Thank you.

02:01:56 One of my producers tells me that she's not a party's accountant why

02:02:08 will she keep the party's money so you know what I'm doing if the party people

02:02:14 and the people the government and the people in government sincerely believe

02:02:19 that she's on her own they should start speaking up just like any other Ghanian

02:02:23 their silence is deafening their silence is too loud really that's what I want to

02:02:30 say if there is no fear of any things that will happen those people must speak

02:02:39 up they should come up and say we she's a member we don't we don't think what

02:02:44 she did is appropriate we want these investigations to go on the president

02:02:48 must issue a statement actually the president should not be issuing a

02:02:52 statement he should just be telling us what he has done and and many people are

02:02:58 asking why why do you think people are just saying OSP OSP and Yoko I don't

02:03:05 know what that means really you don't know no I have no idea that's the

02:03:11 answer to the question oh the current head of vehicle is mommy

02:03:14 Tiwada and we remember when a plus made corruption allegations against the two

02:03:18 deputy chiefs of staff oh the declaring agents thing so you send it back to you

02:03:24 go today you may most likely have a clearing agents thing done then that's

02:03:28 why people are hoping that OSP would tow it a different line but I'm surprised

02:03:33 something that people say I didn't answer the question I answer the question

02:03:35 you did I did I said answer and I can repeat it again so that it's clear I

02:03:39 stated clearly that it's I'm listening I said that clear that for me I won't

02:03:43 spend four million Ghana cities I'm loved by the people of bingo problem so

02:03:47 I don't need to spend formula on Ghana cities but clearly I've stated that

02:03:50 they're always business interest who would want to support you go around to

02:03:54 try and raise funds you go to people to raise funds the question is are you

02:03:58 minded by your integrity on where you go to for money and the strings attached to

02:04:03 that money because don't forget there is no free lunch in free town and same

02:04:07 applies to you when you take the money from them

02:04:09 absolutely really okay but like I said I'm loved by the people of new

02:04:16 property let me say a very big thank you to them for the love they show to me I

02:04:19 don't need to spend four million Ghana city okay so we'll go to this next issue

02:04:23 but I can assure you the tons of messages you are bringing on this issue

02:04:27 will be reading them even though we'll be discussing some other issues most

02:04:32 Ghanaians are principle less you are defending this even in the rich

02:04:40 countries where citizens live good this would be a serious issue that will lead

02:04:46 to her arrest investigation and if possible prosecution imagine the

02:04:51 implication of her conduct on the city crisis and clearly she hoarded the money

02:05:00 during the apex of the city crisis is that what you expect from your minister

02:05:07 who is supposed to be patrotic sick country

02:05:12 I'll hardly Suleman sent in that one I told you there are many messages like

02:05:18 this and people are saying have I heard what watch a jackal has been saying

02:05:24 about why he got into trouble with a merry power plant we should read it's

02:05:30 not too far away the people are making confessions about how they are stealing

02:05:34 your money we'll be right back this is newsfire

02:05:39 you

02:05:41 let's make most of financing political parties but the fact still remains that

02:05:49 the manner and source of our funding creates room for corruption and I have

02:05:55 practical experience we came into power I was appointed as minister of youth and

02:06:01 sports and I was confronted with Jida now Jida was started by the previous

02:06:06 government and NPP was NYP and the way it was started as a pilot program so

02:06:12 there were no proper institutions in place systems were not in place and it

02:06:17 was virtually a free-for-all we came to power we expanded it and people took

02:06:22 advantage of the weaknesses in the system so by the time I took office it

02:06:27 was virtually a mess and the president said clean it up so with characteristics

02:06:32 ill I also started clean up hey that was when my problem started it wasn't easy

02:06:38 and it was a very awkward you know difficult situation because most of the

02:06:46 service were provided were people that I knew personally and there were people

02:06:50 that have supported us and I know they support both sides and so you have a

02:06:55 situation where you have gone to take money from the person to run your

02:06:58 campaign and then you come back and say you are now investigating the person

02:07:02 canceling his contracts and it was very very very difficult so I started asking

02:07:08 myself questions I mean what is it that we can do that because the average

02:07:13 businessman will rather put his five million or ten million back into his

02:07:17 business to expand but we go to them and put pressure on them we need money we

02:07:21 need money and indeed we do need money and then afterwards when we take the

02:07:26 money from them they are business people they are not charities so they have to

02:07:30 recoup their money and when they now do things and then we not turn back and say

02:07:35 we are investigating them then what are we doing are we deceiving ourselves so

02:07:38 for me you've heard about bust an MP was very honest and frank he said the boss

02:07:45 man cannot be sucked because he contributed heavily

02:07:50 right thank you very much but for one perspective I need to state that because

02:07:57 it's important that when it came to the two deputy chiefs of staff right and the

02:08:05 matter of they being cleared and my meteor the dunk are being involved we

02:08:11 also must remember that Shradge also dealt with the matter and cleared the

02:08:16 essence of watching and Abidjan a pop of any wrongdoing now the next issue we are

02:08:28 conversing for you has to do with the fact that Parliament has been held

02:08:33 hostage according to the majority members by the minority because they say

02:08:41 that sequencing is being persecuted and because of that they are going to

02:08:48 exercise their right when they want to be in the house and when they don't want

02:08:52 to be in the house so a Parliament of 275 members they need a quorum the

02:09:02 ordinary quorum to do business 92 of them they can't get that number so what

02:09:09 is happening are the MPs representing you or they are representing who exactly

02:09:14 joining us is the honorable Joseph Osei-Usu who is the first deputy speaker

02:09:20 of Parliament thank you so very much for making time to join us on Newsfile sir

02:09:25 thank you for having me great and because of the development you say this

02:09:31 is the West Parliament that this country is witnessing now how so well I think

02:09:38 the headlines often they support the statement I said when it comes to

02:09:45 legislation law making okay this Parliament has been the West anybody who

02:09:53 cares to know can count how many votes have been passed in the last two and a

02:09:59 half nearly three years there was three quarters of their the life funds of

02:10:06 Parliament this because probably being so close I've brought the West in us as

02:10:18 members of Parliament I'm not talking about one side or the other the West

02:10:26 part of us as members of Parliament I was in the fifth six and seven

02:10:33 Parliament in each case there was some significant difference but I do know

02:10:41 that in our team in government would always have challenges because some of

02:10:49 the other ministers could be teachers they often have to do some

02:10:58 elementary business outside of Parliament but it has always been the

02:11:03 practice once the leaders agree this business will be done the back bench

02:11:11 does not come back I mean and ruffle feathers or racecords those are the

02:11:22 things I'm talking about the kind of of reaching and negotiated arraignments

02:11:32 are which Parliament were able to deliver its mandate appears to be

02:11:37 missing in this Parliament unfortunately but not of that they're able to do very

02:11:45 little in terms of legislation you you certainly are very disappointed in

02:11:51 the recent developments by the minority to decide that the way to protest what

02:12:00 the the Dean persecution of judge equating in fact they've added the the

02:12:08 minority leader as well who is also standing trial that any day the courts

02:12:16 are going to hear their matters they will be there and now we know that

02:12:19 judge equations matter will be heard every day so it means every day they

02:12:23 won't come to Parliament and we discover that initially they were going so even

02:12:29 without the requisites correct numbers you were able to do business because by

02:12:35 the procedure until anybody raises the issue you can continue now they have

02:12:42 tactically decided that a couple of their members will come into the house

02:12:46 just to raise the fact that there's no quorum so you are not going to have to

02:12:52 be able to do any work this will affect government I my disappointment is not in

02:12:59 any one side but in the both really did the members of Parliament and view me

02:13:05 that's what the purposes of argument that the minority decides not to come to

02:13:10 Parliament for the rest of the year the majority have sufficient numbers to do

02:13:17 business in the house so I would not blame the minorities for any free lot to

02:13:24 do business I'm saying that if there's a philosophy business it is because

02:13:30 members of Parliament are not divided into minority and majority okay you need

02:13:38 92 members to be present and we need 138 members 92 for their business wanted to

02:13:46 do my best to answer 138 members to take a decision in each case the majority has

02:13:52 that is enough so you cannot blame the minority for not coming when you can

02:13:58 mobilize your own members to the present to house is this I sometimes

02:14:05 unfortunately I said the headline before artwork I will say never played the

02:14:13 minority okay is there's a filler it is a filler of members of Parliament

02:14:19 including members on the majority our responsibility first and foremost is to

02:14:26 be true to our oath all right I do know sometimes that mischief

02:14:38 frustrates and deliberately to frustrate the work of business I know for example

02:14:46 that on last Tuesday Wednesday well for the people the public account was

02:14:55 physical then yes procedure legislation was perfect and I think another one I

02:15:00 mean yeah and they do one of other so there was sufficient number of MPs in

02:15:11 the presence of Parliament but because they're divided into different activities

02:15:16 all elements of business there were not sufficient numbers in the chamber to be

02:15:24 able to perform that has been my dilemma and I asked the leader to think about it

02:15:31 if you look through the votes and proceedings you see members present 201

02:15:39 then in the same motion proceeding you see column but because there was not

02:15:47 sufficient members in Parliament the speaker has to bring procedures the same

02:15:53 document one face to another one of you are present in Parliament and then one

02:15:59 say that you couldn't have 92 of you to be present so that's a name and I'm

02:16:07 saying that in the past we have gone round these by let's say that an

02:16:12 arraignment between leaders once the leaders of the sides agree that this

02:16:18 business we must do it completed the backbench doesn't come in to raise

02:16:24 columns the evening if we did and I used to try to do that often my leader to

02:16:30 tell me no we have agreed to do this indeed some of our senior members had

02:16:36 complaints with a freshman that the minority rather now majority leader is

02:16:42 too compromising we should not be allowing that and then he called us a

02:16:47 lesson that when business must go on we must state our position state our

02:16:53 alternative to the Ghanaian people and those who have been given the money must

02:17:00 be allowed to work okay what was ingrained in my mind and still

02:17:04 ingrained in my brain. Kindly hold on for me I'm coming to you back

02:17:10 to you briefly to tell us from where you stand and more particularly because of

02:17:15 your hallowed office of the first deputy speaker what is the solution because Joe

02:17:24 Jachi Kweisi will go to court every day, Atul Fawcett will also be going to

02:17:33 court and the minority have not changed their position they are rather seeking

02:17:38 to improve their tactics in the way they have to function so how will you ensure

02:17:43 that government business does not suffer in this regard and when I say government

02:17:49 business we are talking about business for the state not for so-called MPP

02:17:54 forming a government we are affected so Sam George how is this how is this

02:18:02 justified I note that for example in 2016 there was a postponement of debate

02:18:11 of the budget not once twice because of the questions of forum quorum this has

02:18:19 happened over and again speaker has each speaker has had to complain I'm on the

02:18:25 Parliament's website 20 on the 20th of November 2019 Parliament suspense

02:18:34 sitting for lack of quorum right on a will create Tuesday morning suspended

02:18:39 parliamentary sitting for more than one hour as a house for you to form a quorum

02:18:43 how do you explain this to the people who have voted you to go there and work

02:18:48 for the state something I I think that it's important that I recognize the

02:18:57 clarity that has been brought to the reportage in this interview by the right

02:19:05 honorable first the right the honorable first deputy speaker and it's important

02:19:10 that that is clarified because the way the reportage came I had questions about

02:19:15 it in fact before we even came on I told you what my reservations were but his

02:19:21 spot on you cannot blame the minority as the majority chief we are not on price

02:19:27 doing you can you can hold us responsible for the failure of Parliament

02:19:32 conduct business we are caucus we have taking a decision that says that so long

02:19:38 as you persecute our members we would we would take this position don't forget

02:19:44 that we've had members of this caucus in court and we've conducted government

02:19:48 business when my area was being prosecuted by the then special

02:19:53 prosecutor Martin Amidu we proceeded to continue government business you know

02:19:58 but mr. speaker makes mr. speaker makes the point about and forgive me because

02:20:06 empowerment whether it's a deputy or first or second we refer to mr. speaker

02:20:10 by this case honorable just so also makes the point that leadership takes

02:20:16 decisions and those decisions are challenged by the backbench I think that

02:20:21 the problem has largely been one that on our side we don't trust the majority

02:20:27 they have not been men of their words especially when it comes to decisions

02:20:32 that were taken by leadership and I may not want to go into all of the details

02:20:36 but he would be privileged to some of the conversations around the prosecution

02:20:42 especially a vulnerable art of awesome and and and and conversations and and

02:20:48 decisions that were taken by leadership relative to the passing of God for

02:20:52 damning I leave it at that and the current position from the government so

02:20:59 if if if leadership has gone in to have certain conversations and one side has

02:21:07 carried out its side of the bargain and then the other side begins to flip-flop

02:21:12 and then leadership comes back again to say oh we we want to have a conversation

02:21:16 to pass this bill the backbench will not accept it and leadership themselves are

02:21:20 now compliant to the backbench to say that look we cannot trust the word of

02:21:24 the other side because they will always flip-flop what are you talking about

02:21:28 there was an agreement that the attorney general will not prosecute I said I

02:21:32 won't go into the details of it prosecuting prosecution is a political

02:21:35 decision and the office of the attorney general is a political office yes

02:21:38 because it's he's only the attorney general is also a minister for justice

02:21:42 yes so what are you telling us you are coding something I'm saying that I'm

02:21:47 saying that the problem in Parliament today in this eighth Parliament is

02:21:52 simply the inability of the MPP side to stick to whatever bargains that have

02:21:57 been made over and over again and if you remember the former minority leader

02:22:01 how an IDC has had costs on the floor of the house to tell chain men samples

02:22:06 majority that that this is not what we agreed to this is not what we we had we

02:22:11 discussed in concrete because Jay will come on the floor and change his

02:22:14 position and the same thing is happening now even without - and so when the

02:22:18 backbench takes the position and says that look we will not operate with the

02:22:23 government side we've taking that position every decision you take comes

02:22:27 at a political cost and I've seen dr. Rashid's comments about our position and

02:22:32 all of that we are minded by that but the failure of government to conduct his

02:22:37 business is not because of the minority it's simply because the members of the

02:22:42 government side the majority in Parliament have decided to put the

02:22:47 campaign of Alan chairman teen Kennedy Japan and dr. Mahmood Balmer above

02:22:53 government parliamentary business they are not able to make the 92 members

02:22:59 because they are members of Parliament are on the field campaigning campaigning

02:23:04 for their presidential candidates and now they are also beginning to look at

02:23:08 preparing themselves for their own parliamentary primaries that is where

02:23:11 the cracks of the matter is and so you see in this in this situation the

02:23:17 government side would need to realize that you can't use threats you can't use

02:23:22 like another embrace doing you can't use the the approach another press approach

02:23:27 to this matter of holding press conferences and calling people out will

02:23:32 not solve the problem I just mentioned to you 2016 you know who was a government

02:23:36 and this he was in government what was a parliament like at that time it was also

02:23:41 a similar situation no it wasn't it was a similar situation you didn't have this

02:23:45 kind of Parliament the margins were the numbers the gap wasn't that big you had

02:23:49 the majority we had a majority of our 19 you 19 seats or not twice the house

02:23:54 suspended debate was postponed because you couldn't raise the numbers to the

02:23:59 budget I'm not running away from that that is my top of history that happened

02:24:05 what happened the NDC brought his numbers in ministers were asked to come

02:24:09 in and come and take part in the debates the debates proceeded so you know that

02:24:14 ministers because a at least majority of the ministers must come from Parliament

02:24:20 according to the Constitution arrangements ministers have a duty some

02:24:25 are traveling you can't you can't take that away from how many ministers do

02:24:29 that's the MVP how much traveling how many means this is bound to happen in

02:24:34 Berlin if they had 50 members from Parliament even if they had 50 at least

02:24:38 that should give them at least another one 50 out of 138 if you have 88 I you

02:24:44 know I'd only for any I'm not being unreasonable if that equating and he

02:24:49 has a lot of support in the country and elsewhere that he should not be

02:24:53 prosecuted there's no point in the prosecution at a forcing that he's not

02:25:00 guilty of anything why don't you allow them why don't you allow them to go

02:25:07 through the process and they have very good lawyers why don't you allow them to

02:25:11 go through the process and I said they are innocent because we feel that this

02:25:14 is not a prosecution is a persecution you see and you see the cracks of the

02:25:18 matter I mean with Jackie quiescent is not even the fact of the prosecution is

02:25:21 the daily nature of it and that's our problem look no one is walking free how

02:25:29 long has that prosecution been ongoing question antechi how long has that

02:25:34 prosecution been ongoing so what is the expediency of prosecuting Jackie quiescent

02:25:41 on a daily basis if you let me and my colleagues on the NBC side understand

02:25:46 what the existential value of a daily prosecution of Jackie quiescent is a man

02:25:52 who has look the man has set history he's been elected twice in one

02:25:55 constituency in the space of three years in the same Parliament let us understand

02:26:00 what the value of the daily prosecution is then we'll appreciate it

02:26:04 after forcing after forcing had been going to court we're in boycotting the

02:26:09 situation that's right what the trigger for this is the daily

02:26:12 prosecution of Jackie quiescent which is not against law which is not a political

02:26:18 decision and so we are also taking a political decision the NPP cannot

02:26:22 arrogates to itself the powers to determine how the NDC must operate the

02:26:26 NPP cannot say that they can take a political decision and the NDC should

02:26:30 not take a political decision then this is not a church we're a party we're

02:26:34 political party we're not religious organization so we take political

02:26:38 decisions. Let me go to Dr. Theo at Champong. Oliver Bakavoma says that he wants a daily

02:26:45 trial so he can get done with this he doesn't get it and to be very sincere

02:26:50 with you it's such a sad situation he his his his passports was taken away he

02:26:56 needed his passport it was so difficult to get the passport the Attorney General

02:27:00 kept opposing his passport being released in there on the account that he

02:27:05 will run away he won't come back to stand trial eventually the court did

02:27:10 justice to him gave him his passport he traveled guess what he came back to

02:27:15 Ghana the is it the day of his trial and he came to Ghana only for an adjournment

02:27:24 because nothing happened in the court meanwhile if he hadn't come there would

02:27:29 have been a bench warrant and they will go to Interpol for him to be arrested he

02:27:33 takes a flight all the way from wherever he came from and sometimes this happens

02:27:38 in our court yes people spend a lot of money come from long distances and

02:27:43 nothing happens I think that has to change. Dr. Theo at Champong do you say that

02:27:49 what the minority is doing is justifiable, is sustainable?

02:27:57 They are doing it for their political interest as much as the MPP is also

02:28:05 chasing let me put it this way the government is pushing this Jatikwesi

02:28:13 trial on a daily basis also on political grounds because like Samir and

02:28:18 yourself and several others have cited there are other cases in this country

02:28:23 that perhaps you know I mean of a much more serious nature that would you know

02:28:29 warrant a daily trial if needed but people go and these cases you know pushed

02:28:36 aside sometimes three weeks sometimes two weeks you know and things like that

02:28:40 so the point is that there would always be a political reaction to such issues

02:28:47 so I am not surprised that the MPC says that you know as long as this daily

02:28:55 trial thing goes on then they would as a matter of solidarity with Jatikwesi

02:29:01 not show up in in the house but the problem is not just an MPC problem we

02:29:08 also have MPP members that also don't know before before you address that

02:29:14 aspect of the MPP members the question is what they are doing whose interests

02:29:19 are they serving and we are going to pay them at the end of the month this is

02:29:23 public funds we are going to pay them so are they representing their constituents

02:29:28 are they representing us or the who are they representing? They are representing

02:29:33 their interest and they are also representing the national interest. And should that be

02:29:37 allowed? No but the point is that how do you define that interest the interest of

02:29:43 what happens in Parliament yes it's a national interest but in the interest

02:29:47 also of showing solidarity and making sure that you know what is good for the

02:29:52 the goose is good for the gander as well that argument could also be made equally

02:29:58 on the part of the of the NDC because although legally you could have

02:30:04 that daily trial there's nothing whatsoever that shows that that should

02:30:08 be the process in in terms of precedent. People go to court cases are adjourned for

02:30:14 two three weeks you name it so why the rush in this particular instance so they

02:30:19 could also argue that on the basis of of national interest and public interest

02:30:25 what they are doing is right it's neither here nor there but the big thing for me

02:30:31 going forward is that these delays would probably become the norm as we go into

02:30:38 the election year right everybody suddenly is getting into campaign mood

02:30:44 we've got parliamentary primaries we've got presidential primaries that are

02:30:50 upcoming latter part of this year next year and normally even at the end of the

02:30:57 lap that the first quarter of the election year most of the MPs don't even

02:31:02 come to the house at all so of course parliamentary business is going to stall

02:31:07 15 key bills act and things that have to be passed including what we were just

02:31:13 discussing a few moments ago the you know new public officers conduct at

02:31:18 which is part of the IMF conditionalities may be bestowed that that

02:31:23 is the the challenge that we were dealing with but for me I like I said I

02:31:29 don't think it's necessarily an NDC problem there are people on the NDP side

02:31:35 also that don't turn up and therefore you don't have the quorum being formed

02:31:41 and it's also of course if you've got a hung Parliament with almost equal

02:31:46 numbers on each side there's always going to be a lot of you know backroom

02:31:51 post-trading and things like that so to the extent that one side of the the

02:31:58 party feels that you're not honoring the deal or the bargains that have been made

02:32:02 they would use whatever trick is at their disposal to stall parliamentary

02:32:06 business and it's of course Ghanaians that would you know take the heat or the

02:32:13 effect of those stalled legislative decisions going forward but I worry like

02:32:19 I've indicated that this may become the norm going into next year and a lot of

02:32:26 key bills will be stalled. Thank you very much Dr. Theo Champong. I'll now get back

02:32:34 to the first deputy speaker Joe Weiss. So there must be consensus somehow because

02:32:43 whatever happens it is the government the people that suffer because of the

02:32:49 lack of work in an important chamber like Parliament. What are you doing in

02:32:56 this direction?

02:32:59 We have just about two minutes to close.

02:33:07 All right. It is my point never to interfere in judiciary matters but I also want to put on record that I am totally opposed to any mindset that's trying to put the political class above the criminal law of the country. That is why I decline to say anything or regarding constitutional members of Parliament or any politician.

02:33:36 But the true situation we need is the minority has taken their position. We want you to stop ABCD if you don't start we will not come.

02:33:48 Fine. The power to stop that is not in Parliament. So I don't know who in Parliament has promised anybody anything. I'm not privy to any of those. What Parliament can do if we want business done is to make sure that its members, I mean the majority, its members come to the floor of the House to do

02:34:06 the work. If we don't do the work we can't blame anybody. We are 138 sufficient to do anything that we must do. If we don't do it we have no business, it lies ill in our mouth to blame anybody else. That's my position.

02:34:29 So going into this week in Parliament we expect that what transpired will continue to repeat itself. Maybe then you should declare the House suspended until such a time that the cases are over.

02:34:43 Well it shouldn't be the case. If we want to do the work we are capable of doing the work. Maybe they may change their position but we should not take government work on the minority. I mean wait until they change their position.

02:35:02 Why are we called the majority? Even if it is one defence. It means that we have sufficient numbers to do the work of the Parliament. No business. I believe strongly in agreeing but as he is saying maybe some assurances have been given to them which have already been made. I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of any agreement or I've been part of business of the day which in presiding and sitting through with the leaders we are agreeing with.

02:35:32 If it is, then what will go into the chamber, things change.

02:35:38 Thank you very much Joseph Osei-Osoi, the first Deputy Speaker of the Parliament of the Republic of Ghana.

02:35:44 Manche Bruce in Takrade says I think the President must crack the whip with immediate alacrity. The Minister must be made to step aside.

02:35:53 My guests have been Mary Ada, Acting Executive Director Ghana Integrity Initiative. Dr Theo Echampong is Economist and Risk Analyst, Political Risk Analyst. Kojo Apiyejia is Associate Professor of Law, University of Ghana, Ligon.

02:36:08 Samuel Nete George, MP Ningo Prampram, Deputy Ranking Member, Communications Committee of Parliament and Member, Public Accounts Committee of Parliament.

02:36:20 As for the Communications Committee, without him it looks like that committee doesn't exist. I'm serious about that.

02:36:33 My outfit as always is by Habil Screw Terror. You can find them at Adjuringano Gate. You can call them 0200-84988. 0200-84988.

02:36:46 They can get you the best of Kaftans. That's where they are made. I'm Samson Ladi-Anyanini. Have a good afternoon. See you next week, God willing, with another edition of News File.

02:36:57 [Music]

Newsfile || We must know where Cecilia Dapaah got the money from and what it's being used for

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