Manhood Episode 11 Male Emotional Vulnerability
Manhood Episode 11 Male Emotional Vulnerability
Transcript
00:00 Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.
00:12 Thank you for joining us for another episode or as I'm always saying, another conversation,
00:18 manhood is really, really important and I try as much as I remember to reiterate that
00:26 it's not about a stature, it's not about your strength, it's not about a particular behavior
00:33 or whether you like sports or not.
00:35 Being a man is about your morals, your moral compass and how you're received by your peers.
00:41 Today's really an exciting one because the topic today is emotional regulation.
00:49 Let me introduce the panel.
00:50 First of all, we're all host here.
00:52 I'm so delighted to have you all as normal.
00:55 Johansi Aoudike, behavior change consultant.
00:58 You know that I'm getting that smooth like a river.
01:03 Almost.
01:04 Go ahead.
01:05 Notice I said smooth like a river, not like a lake, you know, because it's in between
01:08 at some point.
01:09 You have your pockets are river, you know, when you go in the river at certain points
01:12 that are still and in other parts it could be turbulent.
01:15 So there are moments, there are moments.
01:17 I'll still take the kudos.
01:20 Another good friend, Riyad Emret, no stranger to anyone, West Indies cricketer, you know,
01:28 top guy, you know, all in all.
01:31 I'm digging the kicks, I must say.
01:34 Niall Royale, a producer and also a friend.
01:38 So it's a very tricky topic.
01:43 It's a very tricky topic and some of the conversation that we had in the lead up before the red
01:47 button was pressed and record started, we spoke about off the cuff and of course, Johansi
01:57 has a definition that he wants to talk about that he believes in.
02:00 And I want to make sure that he expresses that before we get into the conversation because
02:06 we started to speak about something off topic but still part of the topic because it's still
02:11 emotion and we started to talk about self-hate.
02:14 So I really want to also add that into the mix.
02:17 But first of all, let's hear Johansi's definition of emotional regulation.
02:22 That I was given that I believe in.
02:25 Emotional regulation refers to the ability to effectively manage, and I like the word
02:31 manage because there's a root man there, manage and controls one emotion in order to adapt
02:37 to different situations and maintain psychological well-being.
02:42 It involves understanding, expressing and managing emotions in a healthy and constructive
02:50 manner.
02:51 Emotional regulation plays a crucial role in our overall mental health and interpersonal
02:58 relationships.
02:59 All right, that was a little mouthful but for the most part, I do agree with this, right?
03:05 Especially in terms of- I wasn't wrong, you believe in it.
03:09 In terms of adapting to different situations and maintaining psychological well-being.
03:16 Because a simple definition for mental health is the way we think, feel and behave.
03:22 Based on that, you could tell how mentally healthy you are or not.
03:27 So the ability to adapt because many times things happen and we can't predict it.
03:32 So that's kind of really true.
03:34 You're true, how you would truly react in something.
03:38 Because if we have time to calculate how we react in it, you wouldn't get a true result
03:41 and you wouldn't really see how mentally healthy you are.
03:45 So we could start there because as men, I mean humans, but as men, we are faced with
03:51 many different situations that sometimes we don't plan for.
03:55 And a lot is on our plate and a lot is on our shoulders.
03:58 And if we go in terms of being, let's call it a quote unquote traditional man, where
04:02 we handle most of the things for our families.
04:06 We have to be the rock.
04:08 We have to be the person carrying things and sometimes not complain, not react.
04:13 So we could start with Robert.
04:15 No, you talk before, and let me start with Niall.
04:18 Well, not to cut you off, but I'll let you jump back in.
04:21 But I just wanted to be clear that in terms of regulation, that does not mean don't show
04:27 emotion.
04:28 You have to be very, very open when saying that because I find a lot of the times men
04:33 choose to, you know, I don't want to say how I feel because this is how it's supposed to
04:40 be.
04:41 And I don't agree to that at all.
04:42 I find that if it is I feel like crying in front of my girl or in front of my mother,
04:48 I am going to let out tears.
04:50 You understand?
04:51 And it's easy to worry about how you're being perceived by your peers, especially like your
05:00 brothers, like, you know, you can't cry in front of your brothers.
05:03 But I am bawling if it is a Darzi case.
05:06 Because if it, as the definition said, for what it is, it is for mental health.
05:15 For me, letting it out is healthy.
05:18 You understand?
05:19 That's how I look at it.
05:21 Anytime you try to contain any type of emotion that you're feeling overwhelmed by, and you
05:27 know, have to put on a face to try to, you know, I guess to make other people feel comfortable.
05:35 That's where you're moving into the space of unhealthiness in my opinion.
05:38 I agree.
05:39 And, you know, you said it there where you said, is it for yourself?
05:46 Or is it for someone else that you are not showing this emotion or showing a particular
05:51 emotion?
05:52 I was saying to you guys when we were even re-added, we were talking about if as a man
05:57 or anyone, you are out of control.
06:00 You know, they always say sometimes when you write a particular thing, it could be to your
06:03 boss, it could be to a friend or whoever, you should wait maybe 24 hours before you
06:08 actually send it.
06:09 So you read it over.
06:10 Right?
06:11 What it's really trying to say is if you are out of control, you are giving up that
06:16 control.
06:17 And if you're giving up that control, that person or those persons are now in control
06:22 for your – towards your behavior and are then taking control because you are now out
06:28 of control.
06:29 So they're in control, you're out of control now.
06:32 So you need – in order to take that control, you have to be very sure of the emotion that
06:38 you want to give is the emotion you want.
06:40 And even then, even if I decide, listen, I am consciously now going to be angry if that's
06:46 what you want, you are still relinquishing that control because that might be the emotion
06:52 that person wanted to evoke.
06:54 You know, so we just – you know, on a real side note here, we spoke about, you know,
06:59 you ask the question, why is it in certain cases, Trini, there's a self-hate.
07:04 You know, Riyad, you were talking about the fact that, you know, and I hope that you'd
07:10 share it, the experiences in Afghanistan where now they're talking about, you know, that
07:15 sportsmen are really light and that when you go abroad, like you see this love.
07:21 But in Trinidad, it could be, boy, back of the line for you, boy.
07:26 You know?
07:27 Yeah.
07:28 You know, it's difficult sometimes, you know, you as an athlete, a national athlete, you
07:34 give your heart and soul for your country and you expect, you know, when you come back
07:37 home, you'll be treated like not a hero but, you know, somebody that appreciates – who
07:42 is appreciative.
07:44 And you don't really get that when you come back home most of the times.
07:47 Not all the times, but most of it, you know?
07:50 And when we go out to other countries, even Caribbean countries, you know, we are loved
07:57 so much more than your own country.
08:00 And you know, sometimes it hurts to know that, you know, you're giving your heart and soul
08:03 for your country and somebody outside appreciates you more.
08:07 But why you feel that is though?
08:08 Because you are also Trini.
08:10 Why you feel you – I mean, you may behave the same way in another instance.
08:15 I think we, as Trinis, we love ourselves more than other people.
08:22 I don't know if that is it.
08:24 But you know, sometimes you don't give – I don't know if respect is the word because
08:30 you earn respect, you know?
08:34 I don't know what is the word, but, you know, we don't appreciate our own.
08:37 Yeah.
08:38 It's like West Indies cricket, for example, you know?
08:40 You might go out there and give your all, but then unless you win the entire competition
08:44 or you're beaten aside like India that, you know – I would say I'm not – you know,
08:50 even though I was a sports presenter, I don't know cricket like so many other persons in
08:56 the – as in depth as they do.
08:58 But what I would say is I'm a huge – people who know me know I'm a huge Manchester United
09:03 fan.
09:04 So win, lose or draw, I might not agree with the coach.
09:07 I might not agree with some of the players or the performance, but I'm not going to
09:11 stop supporting the side.
09:12 I will still support the side regardless.
09:14 What I might disagree with is whether your heart and soul was in it.
09:18 So for example, if I'm watching West Indies cricket and you've given your heart and
09:22 soul and not as about a big gold chain and about a party and all of these other things,
09:27 then I'm still going to support you because I can't expect a side like, for example,
09:32 India, when you do the research on that and you realize that I think they have to play
09:37 first class cricket, it's mandatory to play first class cricket and then from there you
09:43 could – you know, you play in other teams.
09:45 So you get in the best of the best.
09:47 And if you're not performing, they have a thousand other people coming for your spot,
09:51 right?
09:52 So therefore, you know – and so the point they're trying to make is that as a Trini
09:56 or West Indian, that level of love could be – you know, we – and I don't want to
10:06 say – you know, I'm probably going to be held for cancel culture.
10:09 You want to – I might be rambling.
10:11 I might put myself in some hot water.
10:16 Remember this is a male talk show.
10:18 We just talk.
10:19 He's definitely hot water.
10:20 I'm putting up my hand because I'm helping you regulate your emotion.
10:25 Right, OK.
10:26 Because I'm seeing what happened here, right?
10:29 So I'm coming back.
10:30 I appreciate you, brother.
10:31 Let us, brothers.
10:32 You're saying regulation.
10:33 I didn't want it to mean that we're keeping it inside.
10:37 So I'll first differentiate suppression versus regulation.
10:41 Suppression is when you keep it inside and we're not expressing it.
10:44 Regulating is that we're letting it out, but regulating in a controlled manner.
10:48 OK, OK.
10:49 Not just letting it out.
10:50 Not lashing out or unleashing it.
10:53 Yes.
10:54 Venting.
10:55 Venting.
10:56 Venting.
10:57 And then as Riyadh, when you're saying – you're saying sometimes you feel the
10:58 hurt, right?
10:59 How do you manage that emotion of hurt?
11:02 Because if it happened more than once, even when you go out to play now, right, sometimes
11:08 you may even be thinking about the hurt.
11:09 You know, well, I do know all of this and my countrymen not giving me a certain – so
11:14 how do you manage one emotion in general?
11:17 Because I'm almost certain stepping out in front of a crowd, you must feel some kind
11:20 of emotions.
11:21 I don't know if the players from the other team probably might be telling you something.
11:24 I don't know.
11:25 But there are a lot of emotions that happen in that instance.
11:28 How do you manage those emotions?
11:29 So when you now start, you get a lot of butterflies.
11:34 Even now you get butterflies.
11:35 But as your career goes on, and I've been playing for – I'm 14, I'm blessed to
11:41 say that I'm playing for a while now.
11:43 I'm still playing professionally.
11:45 So I have the experience when I go out now, the crowd don't bother me at all.
11:52 Sometimes I don't even feel like it out of people in the crowd.
11:55 So I get to that level now.
11:57 I focus on what I have to do.
11:59 So the crowd, yes, they enjoy us.
12:00 When you're playing in Trinidad, the Trini Posse stand, the music, you enjoy.
12:03 You feed off their vibes.
12:06 But you know, if somebody's shouting something out in the stands, I don't hear that.
12:10 So that is a blank out for me.
12:12 I don't know how other people react to it, but me.
12:14 I hate to lose.
12:15 I support Manchester United, so I know the feeling.
12:18 I know we're strongest brothers.
12:20 I hate to lose, but as you say, when you go there, my main thing is to win.
12:29 I forget about this one, the guy who's blind in the bus route.
12:33 When he comes through, when he comes in the airport, he's standing up in long lines,
12:39 and people recognise him.
12:40 I forget all about that.
12:41 My main focus is to go there and do my job and do the best that I can.
12:46 You see what he's saying there, I think is all men could testify.
12:51 You see when they say you blank out certain things?
12:54 Because I've heard women speak about their husbands like this, in terms of, well, he
12:59 blank, like he just blank mouth, he blank it out, right?
13:02 And I myself, I blank things out because I don't know if I've explained this on the show
13:07 before, but the physiology of a male and a female brain are different.
13:13 We have less connections between the left and the right side of our brain.
13:17 So in terms of our woman ability to quote unquote multitask or task switch, we have
13:22 less of it.
13:23 So that's why we have a quote unquote one track mind.
13:25 And that's also for our survival, because back in the day when you go out to hunt, we
13:30 can't be thinking about your wife, your children and all these things as you get killed.
13:33 We have to be thinking about going for the food and again, when they get the food, they
13:37 think about reaching back home and carrying it.
13:39 So understanding to how we men process things is important.
13:45 Knowledge is power.
13:46 The more we understand ourselves.
13:47 So you see how you're able to regulate, not suppress, regulate emotions.
13:52 So you're aware, you're feeling the butterfly, so you're not denying it.
13:55 But you know now, okay, if I listen to the people shouting, if I listen to this, it might
13:59 affect me negatively.
14:01 So I'm able to blank it out and then focus on the task at hand.
14:05 Okay, just to come back very quickly, I actually don't think that is a case of Trinidadians
14:12 not appreciating our athletes or celebrities.
14:15 I think deep down, we actually, we are fans.
14:18 We love our stars.
14:21 We love them, you know, but there's a pride that we have where we can't, I can't show
14:25 too much love.
14:26 Yeah.
14:27 I cannot.
14:28 I'm not can't, I don't want to.
14:31 The pride is in our mind.
14:33 It's coming as can't.
14:34 I cannot.
14:35 So physically, let me give you a quick story.
14:37 But you want that picture though, eh?
14:38 You want that picture?
14:39 We wanted to, but we still might ask.
14:42 So a quick story, a friend told me of he's seeing Bravo in the mall, right?
14:48 I said, "Way, look, Bravo, boy.
14:51 This man will do plenty for my country."
14:53 And he's coming on the, Bravo's coming on the escalator, right?
14:56 I wonder if he will stop to give me a picture, boy.
14:59 Way, boy, tapping brethren.
15:00 Dog, look, Bravo, that's the man looking, the man looking fresh, blah, blah.
15:04 And as he slowly came closer to him, he just, and he is explaining to me, and he said, I
15:11 said, "Boy, ride out with he, yes?"
15:14 And like, so in my mind, I'm like, what happened?
15:18 But he just, at the time when it mattered, when it was like, "Hey, I appreciate everything
15:25 you do for me and for the country and blessings," he just could not give himself that moment
15:31 to say that, no.
15:33 - A lot of times, too, Nyle, I would think that people, because it reminds me of, I don't
15:42 know if you recall when KG was here, we were talking about Trinibad music, and we were
15:46 speaking about the way, the connection with the music is that back in our day, when we
15:53 hear in Ninja Man and Beanie Man and things like that, they were speaking about areas
15:57 that we weren't familiar with, Moby and things like that.
16:00 But because now the Trinibad is, it's actual areas that you know you probably passed on
16:04 a regular basis, it brings it home.
16:08 And so I'm saying in terms of seeing Dwayne Bravo or Brian Lara, you see them so regularly,
16:13 or like you see them around, and you think, okay, Trini, this is our rock.
16:19 You don't have the same, like you know he have 5 point something million followers,
16:25 and he big in India as we were talking about, or Brian Lara, but you just feel that it's
16:31 almost like he's one of, I'm not giving you that.
16:33 - I accept that because I don't have to.
16:35 - But I'm not saying it's right.
16:38 Remember I talk about outer control and in control and your emotions, but at the same
16:43 time, if you want a picture, now mind you, they probably appreciate that you don't want
16:47 a picture because you can imagine how many times they've been asked that.
16:52 So they vex, they vex that you've been taking a little stroll, coming down the stairs and
16:56 somebody go, "Hey, the man, oh God, eh, you know, I ain't take a fresh, I ain't do this,"
17:00 whatever the case may be.
17:02 - But short of the picture, the appreciation should still be there though.
17:05 - You could say you want Bravo, something like that, yes.
17:08 - Blessings.
17:09 - Yes.
17:10 - But how you, you know, and I've seen it physically there for myself, Brian Lara, pull
17:14 up by the doubles man, and a man, you hear a man stoops in the line one time, like he
17:19 cannot get to the, he cannot get his doubles before me.
17:24 In my mind, I am like...
17:25 - Are they making sure?
17:26 - This is Brian Lara, what are you talking about?
17:30 He have other things to do.
17:31 - Yes.
17:32 - You understand?
17:33 And so, so again, it's back to the self-hate, because I feel like it's not, it's less about
17:40 the issue that they have with whoever's the celebrity at hand.
17:44 It's more about, I don't want them to feel that they're better than me.
17:49 - That is the issue with yourself.
17:51 - And I can't express that fully.
17:53 - Correct.
17:54 So we want to talk about that, but you know, we had to go to a break.
17:56 But before we go to the break, I want to ask, but Riyad, all the thing about your zone,
18:00 all these things and emotion, right?
18:02 If you get a bouncer, and it hurts and you release that cry in front of the public?
18:08 - No, you can't show the opponent, they're coming at you again, so you know.
18:16 - The cameras are on you as well, you don't want to show them.
18:18 - We had to release the emotion, but we're taking a short break.
18:24 And when we come back, we're talking more about those feelings that we don't let out.
18:28 You know, they say, "Bad man, don't cry."
18:41 So we had a, as per normal, we had a real good conversation during the break.
18:45 A couple of my brothers had a little cry, you know, they released their emotion on some
18:52 of the excitement and happiness, and the types of conversation that we're having here.
18:57 And it's really important, you know, all joke aside, it's really important that we have
19:01 these conversations because a lot of the issues that we face as men are also because we simply
19:07 don't know how to release it and get in control.
19:13 People think you're out of control if you cry, but you're actually in control if you
19:17 take note that, "Listen, it's okay for me to cry, and I'm not concerned with what somebody
19:23 else is thinking."
19:24 Because if I'm concerned with what someone else is thinking, they now have control.
19:30 So let's sort of kick off with two things, kindness for weakness, whether it's your partner,
19:39 whether it's your peers, or as you had mentioned, Riyad, in the earlier conversation where you
19:45 said you wouldn't cry if you get that bouncer because, you know, you don't want your opponents
19:50 to see that.
19:51 Now, that is assuming that people take kindness for weakness.
19:56 And we also in this particular segment want to talk about "Bad man, don't cry."
20:04 You know, it's a real premise.
20:06 Whether you say a bad man or not is a premise for why men just don't show emotion in particular
20:12 cases where you're told, "Stop crying!"
20:15 That's happened.
20:16 I feel that's happened a lot, especially in Trinidadian households.
20:19 "What are you crying for?
20:20 You want me to give you something to cry about?"
20:24 If you have not heard that as a boy, something wrong.
20:28 Something wrong in Trinidad.
20:29 That was a mantra.
20:30 A mantra, "Let me give you something to cry for."
20:33 And also, now, growing up, we can't express.
20:37 We know that something is now wrong because in our formative years, we were getting told
20:42 that something is now wrong for crying when you're hurt, whether or not it's not physical
20:48 because hurt comes emotionally a lot of the times.
20:51 And I don't know why parents at that time don't understand these kind of things.
20:57 So is it that we are liable to make that same mistake with our children?
21:01 You're saying that.
21:02 I keep telling my son, "What are you crying for?
21:06 A shimmered boy or something to cry for?"
21:08 You know what I mean?
21:09 So you didn't go break out at one point?
21:11 You watch a movie and start to tear up?
21:15 Yeah, it's happened.
21:16 It's happened.
21:17 It's happened to me.
21:18 But me, I'm different from...
21:20 I would never show my emotions in front of my family.
21:23 I would walk away.
21:26 And that's just me.
21:27 Because I have three sisters, my mom, that's me, and my dad.
21:32 As you know, I'm dealing with a situation now.
21:34 And now I don't ever, ever, even with my wife, I would turn away.
21:39 I would go to the bathroom.
21:41 But we spoke about that.
21:42 Is that because, like I was sharing with you with my dad, even at the funeral, there was
21:50 a part of me that didn't want to show emotion.
21:55 Yes, admittedly, because of the presence that was out there, it was being videoed, et cetera.
22:00 But mostly because I wanted to hold strong for my mom.
22:06 I needed to be there as that pillar, because I knew if I gave into that, she was already
22:11 crumbling.
22:12 She was already falling apart.
22:13 And I needed to be that pillar there for her.
22:18 But is that similar to why you're not showing it, or just bad man?
22:23 I'm not crying in general.
22:25 Me on a whole, I don't really show my emotions in front of people.
22:29 I hold a team, only on the cricket field.
22:32 Why?
22:33 I don't know what to ask.
22:34 What's the reason?
22:35 I don't know if it's probably shame.
22:38 I don't know.
22:39 I can't say.
22:40 I know you don't have enough time to go into a full therapy session.
22:44 This is manhood.
22:45 This is manhood.
22:46 I ask why, because many times we do things-- and actually yesterday, I had a little talk
22:51 on this with some youths.
22:53 Any time we do something and we don't know why, that's problems for us.
22:58 Because that means we're automating.
23:00 We're going on autopilot, and we're not conscious of what's going on now.
23:03 So I know we might delve into it now, but I say even to think about it, why exactly?
23:07 Now, I ain't saying you're wrong or you're right or no.
23:10 But the understanding why is important.
23:14 Because even to regulate our emotions, we have to even understand why we're doing what
23:18 we're doing or how.
23:20 Because I hear any different things, and I'm realizing as a man, it's a real balancing
23:25 act we have to do in terms of our emotions or not.
23:28 Because the psychologist Jordan Peterson said, "Each man, their aim should be to be the strongest
23:35 person in the room when their parents die."
23:37 And he said, "Wherever path leads you to death, to that is important."
23:42 And I thought about that, and I was listening to what you're saying, and even when you say
23:45 the situation to your father, right?
23:48 That could take different forms.
23:49 That could take the form of somebody crying, or it could take the form of somebody staying
23:53 as stoic as possible.
23:55 So understanding too, the why, what going on.
23:58 Because I think each man would be able to know exactly what going on inside of them.
24:03 And if you're unaware, that's where some of the practice come in.
24:06 Because even you telling your son, "What are you crying for?"
24:11 But I realize even listening, there's a dissonance that sometimes happens with our young boys.
24:16 Because in one end, we tell them, "Do whatever you want.
24:19 Be free."
24:20 I just give them a quick example.
24:23 If a little boy, his son want to pee, you will let him pee wherever now.
24:27 So he don't learn a certain degree of control.
24:29 But if he expresses emotions openly, we tell him now.
24:32 So the physicality of things, we get to express as boys.
24:35 We learn, we teach that, "Go and run.
24:37 Go and do something.
24:38 Just let it out in terms of physicality."
24:41 But we tend to be suppressed when it comes emotionally.
24:45 So that in itself could have a dissonance.
24:47 So I grew up now thinking, "Well, maybe I could do whatever I want physically, but emotionally
24:51 I have to stay a bit stunted."
24:55 I embrace that.
25:00 But I'm still like when you say in that emotion, you don't know why.
25:09 Is it that you ask yourself maybe sometimes, "I wish I would show more emotion.
25:14 I wish I would cry."
25:15 Or you're sort of happy.
25:17 And I'll tell you one of the reasons why I'm asking.
25:21 I saw my little sister, who I'm very proud of, like through that whole process with dad,
25:28 she held so strong that the crying that I would have seen would have been sort of when
25:35 she went away into her bedroom or whatever, and I would come out and there would maybe
25:41 some signs that she was tearing up.
25:44 But she held solid in public.
25:46 Whereas for me, I would say that I felt that I might have broken a tooth.
25:52 I was clenching my jaw so hard to avoid showing emotion.
25:57 And I recall when I was given the call, I was actually in the middle of producing, directing
26:03 Spellbound, and got the call.
26:06 You were there, Nile.
26:07 I was.
26:08 And I left.
26:09 And I went to the hospital, and of course, he was on his last breath.
26:12 And we spoke about this before, about regret and being open and showing that emotion and
26:18 letting your dad know how you feel about him while he's alive and allowing him to be able
26:24 to tell you.
26:25 And I remember during that period, spending so long in trying to allow him more life that
26:35 at that point on his last, when I realized that they say the hearing is the last thing
26:39 to go, that he could hear me.
26:42 I heard my mom, my sisters, all of them saying, "It's okay.
26:45 It's okay.
26:46 You can go."
26:47 I couldn't bring myself to it at that point.
26:48 And when I did, even with the nurses around, it just like a deluge.
26:54 It just overcame me.
26:56 There was just...
26:58 I could have broken all my teeth.
27:00 It didn't stop that type of feeling.
27:04 And I gave into it at that particular point because at that point, it was just zoning
27:09 to the fact that this is my dad, and I'm now gonna tell him the words that I thought I'd
27:13 never have to say, which was, "It's okay to go."
27:16 'Cause I was feeling that this is my dad.
27:19 He's leaving me.
27:20 I'm a child again, even at 48.
27:23 I'm like, "How you gonna leave me?"
27:25 And I'm now releasing him to do that, not understanding what that was, and it came out.
27:30 So I'm saying that...
27:32 But again, even during the whole process, all the week, all the visits, I was just clenching
27:37 my jaw because I didn't want to cry.
27:40 And as you mentioned, but it's supposed to be okay.
27:42 It's supposed to be.
27:44 Like who told us?
27:45 Like how you said you don't know where it comes from?
27:47 Who told us that it's not okay?
27:49 Our parents.
27:50 Literally.
27:51 But where did they learn that?
27:52 From their parents.
27:53 My sister, my big sister, if I...
27:55 Like when I now started to travel, and I go to her, she tears, cries.
28:00 So any little thing, in front of everybody, she'll cry.
28:04 My next two sisters, they're similar, but they're not as bad as her.
28:08 So they will tear up on...
28:09 They see what you're saying, they're not as bad as her.
28:11 Yeah, not as bad as her.
28:13 She real bad.
28:14 As soon as they say you're leaving, she...
28:16 But me, I don't like people to see me tearing up.
28:20 That's just me, I don't like that.
28:22 I feel less of a man when people see me tear up.
28:27 So even...
28:28 But where we learn that from Riyad?
28:29 Where do we learn that, you know?
28:32 Because we come back to the second one, we talk about bad man don't cry.
28:36 But what about mystique and kindness for weakness?
28:38 Do you think that if you cry, somebody would think like you said?
28:40 I feel a little weak.
28:41 You feel a little weak.
28:42 That might make sense.
28:43 But let me challenge that one part of not crying is strength, right?
28:48 So I feel that a lot of times, especially in a moment where someone passed and it is
28:53 natural to cry, I think that a lot of times the strength is really giving people permission
28:59 that they could also cry.
29:00 So I felt like had you unclench your teeth and show that, you know, even a man of my
29:06 stature could, you know, immerse myself in this emotion, that could know...
29:11 That would have a ripple effect.
29:13 And yes, you very well know that everybody else would have been crying the minute that
29:16 you started, but you would have been the ringleader in saying that, "Hey, I am strong enough to
29:24 let go of my feelings.
29:25 And I think that everybody else should follow suit," so to speak.
29:29 Because a lot of times it's always been waiting for you not being a patriarch of your family
29:33 to be like, "You know what?
29:36 Guys is okay."
29:37 And that's where true strength for me comes in.
29:39 At least that's how I interpret it.
29:41 Because I, again, back to I was always told boys shouldn't cry, and I was like, "Yo, I'm
29:47 not going through that."
29:50 But to go back into quickly about bad man don't cry, right?
29:55 A lot of times, especially in relationships, women, and I'm not saying all women, tend
30:01 to use our weakness as a tool to hurt us later on.
30:07 We are only cutting you there because we come into that.
30:12 That's a whole...
30:13 - Okay, I'm ready to...
30:14 - Yeah, you're ready to rock with that one, right?
30:18 We coming back to that.
30:19 But I just want to say that just in your earlier point about releasing it, one of the most
30:27 popular memes in the world is what, if anybody could take a guess?
30:31 One of the most used memes in the world is a picture of Michael Jordan crying.
30:36 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:37 - Right?
30:38 And it's used all over.
30:39 - Fuck, fuck.
30:40 - I'm saying, think someone like Riyad.
30:42 You know, he busts down crying on the pitch, right?
30:46 You would think that, you know, like, you know, I get hit, and he's like, "Ooh," and
30:51 he started crying, right?
30:53 That as much as the emotion, they will have maybe a couple people that will be like, "Oh
30:57 my God, empathize."
30:59 But they have many out there, total apathy, are not going to be...
31:04 It's like, you don't truly...
31:05 One thing truly is real creative, you know?
31:07 - As soon as it happens.
31:10 - As that, before that game done.
31:14 - Before the tear hit the ground.
31:15 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:16 - You know what I'm saying?
31:17 You know there's a set of Riyad, all kind of thing.
31:20 You know what kind of guy, Amazon warrior this man is, boy?
31:23 - What's your big deal?
31:24 What's your big deal?
31:25 - So you have to be...
31:28 Like it's exactly, you know, you have to...
31:32 I don't think that, for example, if I broke down at that point, like I said, it's being
31:38 videoed, they're pictures.
31:39 Not that that is the thought that's going through my mind at the time, but I'm saying
31:43 to you that there are persons that after the fact, or even during, may have that moment,
31:48 but then you have a breaking like, "Boy, you know, you just ball up the place."
31:54 You know what I'm saying?
31:55 You're crying, you know?
31:57 Maybe that's fine and all, Robert, because maybe part of being a man and keeping that
32:03 emotion, that strength, is being able, through the people making fun of you, you're still
32:08 able to show that emotion.
32:10 Because when I was thinking about Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo just
32:14 cry all the time, right?
32:16 And they have memes on him making fun of him, but it's also he get respect because of his
32:23 passion.
32:25 Because we assume that he cry and because of how much he feel for the game, right?
32:32 So I say to the same way, if we, or when we show an emotion, it is for us to stay strong
32:39 or stay true to ourselves, even through the making fun of it, because the fact is we feel
32:46 in it now.
32:47 The fact is we do feel it, and I think it's because of the suppression that it sometimes
32:53 comes out, it usually would diluge, right?
32:56 It comes out in that, because sometimes we get sad, it's one tear would have come out
33:00 if we let it out, you know?
33:01 But after a while it's just tears, that one tear, build up, build up, build up, and then
33:06 we release it in that manner.
33:08 But as you said, you said about, you spoke about strength there.
33:12 So we need to take another break.
33:14 The irony is we're coming back to Nile Rearing to go.
33:18 Basically, we look at it about women do like soft, man.
33:37 Back from the break.
33:39 Manhood is the topic.
33:41 Well, interesting topic here now.
33:44 My boy here is rearing for this topic.
33:50 Women do like soft, man.
33:51 Women do like soft, man.
33:52 In more ways than one, by the way.
33:58 But I felt, thank you for coming back like that.
34:03 They don't.
34:04 They don't, well, at least the same way that men were trained not to express their emotions,
34:11 women have been trained to not want men who express their emotions, literally.
34:17 Because I'm sure that in the household, sisters have seen a mother tell her son, "The brother,
34:21 don't cry."
34:22 So why would that woman grow up to want a man who crying?
34:28 It's a lesson.
34:29 When you say this, right?
34:31 I mean, doing actual research, my own personal relationships, and even seeing clients, especially
34:38 couples, because of this confusion, remember I was talking about the dissonance growing
34:43 up with boys.
34:44 That confusion, even women confused, because you're saying women will not want a man to
34:49 show emotion, but then a woman would say in the same breath, "I'm not getting anything
34:54 from him, I cannot feel anything."
34:56 And then sometimes literally do things to elicit emotion from the man.
35:01 And then when he expressed the emotion, "What were you getting on so far?"
35:04 Right?
35:05 So you understand-
35:06 You're not a crybaby in there.
35:08 You understand the, I go to curse day, the effed up kind of-
35:14 Release it, release the emotion.
35:15 If you want to curse, curse.
35:16 Release the baby.
35:17 You have a bleep.
35:18 The effed up kind of relationships we have because of this, whether men should release,
35:23 whether we shouldn't release.
35:25 And I think the conclusion is, I'm going back to what regulate.
35:30 We should regulate.
35:32 We should be able to regulate our emotions.
35:34 We should let it out.
35:36 And whether or not women trained, men trained that way, just like I was talking about Rinaldo
35:41 just now, no matter what, Michael Jordan, whether he cry, no matter what, if you feel
35:45 to let it, and that comes with, of course, understanding who you are as a man and being
35:50 able to stand up.
35:51 You know what I feel to cry?
35:52 Yeah, cry baby boy, ting ting ting ting ting.
35:54 All right, I will cry next time.
35:56 I'll cry louder.
35:58 Just being able to be okay with whatever emotions you feel at that time.
36:04 If you cry next time, are you now doing it out of intent to make a point to regulate
36:13 not necessarily that emotion, but that impression people have of you?
36:19 So again, we're coming back to the fact that you are out of control because you're now
36:23 giving control to someone because you're now concerned with what their impression is.
36:28 Because if crying is not, in that particular instance, you may have let it out based on
36:34 that passion.
36:35 I mean, I have a different stance.
36:37 As I said, as Manchester United men, that's where Cristiano Ronaldo first won his Balador.
36:43 But at the same time, a lot of times, his emotion is not necessarily always out of total
36:49 passion in a positive way.
36:52 A lot of time, it's a lot of self and his importance and what he wants to achieve and
36:59 those different types of things.
37:00 But that's a whole other conversation.
37:02 But I'm saying that if it is that you're now saying, "Okay, well, I've cried now," and
37:05 you're going to keep crying now so that people, it becomes a thing, then again, you're-
37:10 Well, no.
37:11 Balance.
37:12 Too much anything now.
37:13 Well, balance.
37:14 Correct.
37:15 We're going with regulation.
37:16 Correct.
37:17 Is that, actually, I go to say, "Maybe you should even do some of that because practicing
37:21 it, you'll get better at it."
37:24 Practicing not necessarily crying.
37:26 Practicing releasing emotion.
37:27 Practicing regulating emotion.
37:29 The more you practice it, the better you'll get at it.
37:32 So if it is, you realize, "You know what?
37:34 Are two tears good enough for me?"
37:36 You understand that your balance.
37:38 "Are a ball every month good for me?"
37:40 That is your balance.
37:41 But instead of simply keeping it in because I know for sure that's not healthy.
37:47 For sure that's not healthy.
37:49 So in terms of every man watching, everybody watching, practice.
37:55 Practice releasing emotion and again, we're using cry, but releasing emotion don't have
37:59 to be crying.
38:00 Relax.
38:01 Releasing emotion could be going and take a run, you release something.
38:04 Right?
38:05 And because we as men, physical, if you notice or pay attention to sometimes how men, we
38:11 release emotions is based on your body movement.
38:14 You would do something with your hands.
38:16 You would feel your body do something.
38:18 Even there are many men when they're talking and emotion hit, you would see like-
38:21 Adjusting the seat.
38:22 Right?
38:23 Change position.
38:24 You would see your energy moving in your body.
38:26 So being aware of it is important.
38:28 You see that with the prime minister.
38:29 When he read it, it says something.
38:30 You give me a little adjustment there.
38:31 You know.
38:32 And that's more a male thing than a female thing because one, it could be nature because
38:38 of how we process things.
38:40 Two, it could be nurture, how we were trained because we were trained not to emote like
38:44 this, but to do something physically.
38:46 So you would see people shaking the legs, doing something like that, maybe even biting
38:51 it.
38:52 But everybody might have their own little tick.
38:53 So being aware of it is important and practice it.
38:57 Practice the regulation of it.
38:59 Just a touch back on you saying that you don't need to cry to show your emotions.
39:03 Right?
39:04 And I felt like you just talking to your partner about something.
39:08 Honestly.
39:09 That bothering you.
39:10 Honestly.
39:11 Most men don't.
39:12 Most men, any, like we shoulder so much issues and drama in our life.
39:17 And again, we want to seem like we're protecting our peoples because I don't want them to worry.
39:23 I go out and be the man and I don't worry about it.
39:25 But that's silliness to me at least.
39:28 Right?
39:29 I like, yo, if I have a problem and I have my partner with me, she's supposed to be my
39:35 other half who's supposed to help me solve whatever issues I go through.
39:39 What's the point of me not using my best and most valuable asset?
39:41 I don't agree with the other half, but we'll go into that in another conversation.
39:43 I mean, there's a balance in life and they have the male side and the female side, which
39:50 brings the balance.
39:51 So there is a half regardless.
39:53 I just want to touch on only because I know you're talking about yin and yang and the
39:57 alpha and the omega and all these things.
39:59 But if you read like Khalil Gibran, which I'm sure you know of, where he spoke about
40:04 two people being whole.
40:06 What you do is instead of being a half, it means that you're missing something.
40:10 Whereas two persons need to come together as two wholes in order to have another experience
40:15 in terms of to take it to another level.
40:18 I'm getting very philosophical.
40:22 We back to women don't like soft man.
40:24 So back to the, I have this greatest asset in my pocket here and men don't take this
40:29 opportunity to really say how they feel about anything.
40:35 Men can't come to the game and be like, "Yo, baby, I'm not feeling X or this is how I feel
40:41 blah, blah, blah, blah."
40:42 And actually use that opportunity that if you feel like crying, if the world was, you
40:46 know, you had your boss bully up daddy, you know, cry about it.
40:51 Cry about it with your girl.
40:54 But most men will feel that I don't want my girl to see me in such a vulnerable space
41:00 because she will be as **** as I prefer her to be.
41:05 You know what I'm saying?
41:06 Can I use your word?
41:07 Anyway, but-
41:08 I'm sorry.
41:09 I'm sorry.
41:10 There was a moment there and Niall did Niall and took it to another, you know.
41:16 And it is what it is.
41:17 That's how I speak and that's why sometimes we have to be on the panel, right?
41:21 But point is, is that, you know, that is always be at the back of our mind.
41:25 And I feel that when, if that's the thought that you have, that is not the person that
41:30 you're supposed to be with.
41:32 Like if that's not, if you're in that space that I am worried that she, you know, she
41:36 don't, she, girl don't like soft man, then that's not the girl for you.
41:42 I actually agree with you because I've been back and forth with this and even for years,
41:48 you know, what man supposed to do in that situation?
41:51 Is it supposed to keep it in?
41:52 Is it a biological thing that when a woman see you cry, they automatically feel that
41:58 something wrong with you.
41:59 And I've heard actual people preach this, but I realized none of us perfect.
42:05 So if you want to say what a healthy woman is or what a healthy man is, I don't know
42:09 if any of us ever perfect in that sense.
42:12 But if you as a man in your relationship feel that sometimes you cannot or you're afraid
42:17 to express something, some emotion, whatever it is, then something wrong.
42:22 That's my bottom line.
42:23 If you're afraid to do it, something wrong.
42:25 And on both instances, do you actually feel whether you cry, whether you watch a chick
42:30 flick?
42:31 I mean, because I've had instances where, you know, I have seen wifey, you know, tear
42:37 up watching a show or something happens and you decide to tear up and will be...
42:44 And so we talk about men sometimes don't want to show emotion, but women also don't want
42:49 to show that emotion because they sometimes, as we spoke about it in certain instances,
42:57 where they're in survivor mode and they feel that they have to...
43:03 And some of the other women that we've spoken to or had dialogue with to get some research
43:09 for the show, where even though you're with a partner, that woman, if that woman is not
43:13 feeling that she's getting everything she needs to get from that man in terms of feel
43:18 that strength, which could be the man crying and thinking, mistaking that kindness for
43:23 weakness.
43:24 And as a result of that, she's in survivor mode, like she has to take care of business.
43:28 And if she's in taking care of business, as we spoke about the reverse roles where women
43:35 are feeling a sense of more masculine energy.
43:39 Again, another one conversation that we had on manhood, speaking about that masculine
43:44 energy.
43:45 So therefore, they don't want to show their partner that they're breaking down and they
43:49 hold it in.
43:50 And as a result, you have two persons who are not showing that emotion, who are listening
43:57 but not necessarily hearing part of the conversation and moving on.
44:01 I remember a partner telling me he eventually decided to tell his woman something, had a
44:05 long, real, a real deep conversation with her for the first time.
44:10 They keep saying he doesn't communicate.
44:12 And he opened himself up and he mentioned something about a woman that he spoke to in
44:19 a bar.
44:20 And that is all women...
44:21 She stopped hearing that.
44:22 Wait, wait, wait, hold on.
44:23 Let's back up here.
44:24 This woman that you're in the bar, and he was just like, "Really?"
44:31 Like you're not even asking yourself the why?
44:34 Why did I feel...
44:35 What did you have to do with all of this?
44:37 Well, that could be for the topic whether men and women could handle the truth.
44:42 And that is one of the topics coming up.
44:44 But I wanted to...
44:45 I know we're near to closing off this conversation here today.
44:49 And we always say that manhood as an episode in terms of timing on TV and on digital finishes,
44:55 but the conversation will always continue.
44:58 And I'd like you to sort of give your closing thoughts.
45:03 And one of those is basically how you said about not showing your partner or anybody
45:11 that you cry.
45:13 And if they cry in front of you, what is that reaction in terms of that emotion and
45:20 then your general thoughts on the conversation today?
45:23 So because I grew up with three sisters, I know...
45:27 Well, I shouldn't say I know it.
45:30 I kind of understand women emotions most of the time.
45:34 One of the toughest period is when my wife was pregnant with our first child.
45:39 You know, they go through those ups and downs, the hormones and, you know, she...
45:45 One day we were driving home and I just touched her on her shoulder and she's like, you know,
45:51 she lash out and...
45:52 You don't know how I feel.
45:53 And tears are looking.
45:54 I was like, why do?
45:55 You know what I mean?
45:56 I just touched her, you know?
45:59 I like to make joke, you know, fun around.
46:01 And, you know, I was like, are you shocked?
46:05 You know, and then I knew it's true.
46:08 She was staying by her mom that time.
46:10 She come out of the car, open the door, went, she took her keys.
46:16 I thought that we vexed with each other.
46:17 And she's like, so you're not walking back out of my car?
46:20 You know, you really want to...
46:21 I was like, but you know...
46:22 You know what I mean?
46:23 So I was like, I shock, I don't know what to do.
46:26 But you know, it was the first child, I know I started understanding, you know, what to
46:31 go on, how she behave, how to behave.
46:34 You know, but, you know, I can go to my wife and tell her anything.
46:37 Is that understand it?
46:38 You know, although I don't, but I could, you know, and she would want me to come and tell
46:43 her anything.
46:45 I could cry in front of her because at times, a couple of times that I did because of situation,
46:50 you know, and, you know, she was very understanding and she would cry in front of me.
46:55 So we have that kind of relationship, even though she want me to communicate more, but
47:00 that's not me.
47:01 You know, I kind of keep everything inside, as you're saying, why?
47:04 But I don't know.
47:05 You know, I guess that's just me.
47:07 I like my own space most of the time.
47:09 So in Afghanistan, during that situation, you didn't know, you know, no emotion.
47:13 Come on, you know, it's only the four of us.
47:16 I wasn't scared.
47:17 I wasn't scared at all at that time because we were, the security was tops, you know,
47:22 100%.
47:23 It's only when it, when the bomb went off, you know, and the whole place rocked, it's
47:26 like, you know, you only see these things in movies, but actually experience it and
47:30 the way it sounded, the kaboom, and the whole place had a shake and you see we get earthquake
47:35 here, but that was like an earthquake.
47:36 You know, and you see the building, the glass, the shattering and coming out, you know, so
47:40 it was, and she was pregnant at that time as well.
47:44 So with that embrace, when you all saw each other, you know what it was?
47:49 I'm trying to get to the point of when you had that moment.
47:53 I got in an accident two years ago in New York and when she came to see me there, you
47:59 know, a few tears and things, you know, because, you know, I probably am living a second life.
48:04 I guess I live a second life, you know, the way it happened.
48:06 So, you know, but yeah, but, you know, this topic, I think, you know, it's the first time
48:13 I sit down with men and have this topic, discussing this kind of topic, you know, I could tell
48:18 any national team, tell a man he cry in front of the girl, he laugh at you, you know what
48:23 I mean?
48:24 That's just how it is.
48:25 You know, nobody want to shed tears in front of the other half and that kind of thing.
48:28 So, you know, it's interesting, you know, it kind of opened up my eyes to what we should,
48:34 well not say should, but you know, what we should experience.
48:38 And it's not a bad thing.
48:40 It's not a good or bad thing, you know, it's just who we are.
48:43 And we need to open up a little more as men.
48:45 I think Trini men, they open up, you know, that kind of self-esteem, kind of pride kind
48:52 of thing.
48:53 I'm not saying I'm going to cry now.
48:54 I thought one was coming out there, Rehan.
49:02 What you're saying there is very apt.
49:05 My point just to touch on that was simply to say that, you know, whether it be myself
49:10 guilty of it or whether it's somebody else and you have a moment and you cry, the issue
49:16 and the negativity is with me.
49:18 The problem then is with me.
49:20 It's some sort of insecurity or issue that we have as men that we can look at other men
49:25 and think that, hey, you know, you're soft or what kind of, and all of these conversations
49:30 that come out and that's what we need to change.
49:34 I agree with you because your feelings are valid.
49:39 That's the point.
49:41 Your feelings are valid.
49:42 Even if it highlights a weakness, quote unquote, or a shortcoming or something you have to
49:45 work on, it's better to be highlighted as soon as possible so you can work on it.
49:50 So keeping it inside.
49:51 I have heard many men, even when to the grave, sometimes the healing and the hurting, and
49:57 instead of letting it out, right, excuse me, they keep it inside.
50:03 Even their children, I never know what daddy was thinking.
50:06 I never know what he was going through.
50:09 And that, what we're holding back could actually help your son, your daughter, another generation,
50:15 even a stranger.
50:16 A stranger see a cry and that expression do something positive for them.
50:21 So I understand the prevailing sentiment about men, quote unquote, not supposed to show emotion,
50:27 but we're here to do something different.
50:28 That's why we're here, man, not to learn something different, do something different and be better
50:33 as men.
50:36 So, one statement to the ladies in particular, so looking to all the ladies at home right
50:43 now, right?
50:46 You all train your men to lie to you, literally.
50:50 Every time a man comes to you and wants to tell you the truth and you use that opportunity
50:56 to pay attention to the wrong things, use it against him later on, you know, make him
51:04 feel small when he, you know, being vulnerable, that is just a moment that he's going to register
51:11 to lie to you in the future.
51:13 So pay attention to that.
51:15 Well said, well said.
51:18 I'm short for words, believe it or not.
51:21 Just to say that to everyone, the strength is in being in control.
51:28 And if being in control is releasing that emotion when your body is saying this is part
51:34 of the process, whether it be of healing, whether it be a situation of happiness, whatever
51:40 that emotion is, that is a strength.
51:42 That's not a soft man.
51:44 The soft man is the person who's out of control, who's holding in those feelings, who's more
51:50 concerned with what somebody else is thinking.
51:54 So just let that, just to touch on what Niall said and what Rihanna shared and what Yohan
51:59 said, it's really been another thought-provoking, very inspiring conversation again.
52:07 I thank you, gents.
52:09 I love the fact that every time I sit down here, you know, I learn so much more.
52:12 That's true.
52:13 And I hope that everyone listening to Manhood has taken something away, that we're all responsible
52:21 and to just be in control of emotion.
52:25 And if it's one thing you leave here with, it's to know that it's okay to cry.