Manhood Episode 8 Why Do We Cheat
Manhood Episode 8 Why Do We Cheat
Transcript
00:00 Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.
00:07 [Music]
00:13 So thank you for joining us for yet another conversation about manhood.
00:16 And remember, we're not speaking on behalf of all men.
00:20 We are a few men speaking to all men.
00:23 And by the definition of man is not bravado, and that you like sports,
00:28 and that you're a particular manly man.
00:30 It's simply that you have values that we want to shine and be bright and be men.
00:38 To be recognized as men.
00:42 So my panel today, the guys, I know everybody's really excited about today's topic.
00:47 And I have a definition that I always like to start off with, but let me do the introductions.
00:51 Johansi Aodike, Behavior Change Consultant.
00:54 Valmiki Ramlagan, Radio Personality.
00:57 A good friend.
00:59 And Niall McNish himself, Media Personality, Director of Social --
01:06 I mean, there's a whole gamut of things that Niall is --
01:09 and he's particularly excited about talking about today's topic.
01:15 Today's topic is, as much as we are starting off in a very buoyant and, you know, a mood of smiles,
01:22 it's a very serious one.
01:24 A topic that tends to lead to all sorts of violence, death, heartbreak.
01:32 Why do men cheat?
01:36 Why do people cheat?
01:37 So let me start off with the definition that I found.
01:42 But before I start off, the definition would be really good to recognize our brothers,
01:47 Race Track, for sponsoring this set and the sponsorship of Manhood, as well as Jamerson,
01:55 keeping us healthy.
01:56 So thank you, Jamerson and Race Track.
01:59 Definition.
02:01 When women cheat, there's usually an element of romance, intimacy, connection, or love.
02:08 Men, on the other hand, are more likely to cheat to satisfy sexual urges with fewer thoughts of intimacy.
02:16 No surprises there.
02:18 Of course, many men cheat because they feel love as well as sexual attraction for an outside partner,
02:24 but more don't.
02:26 For them, infidelity can be an opportunistic, primarily sexual action that, in their minds,
02:33 does not affect their primary relationship.
02:36 In fact, when asked, many such men will report that they're very happy in their primary relationship,
02:43 that they love their significant other, that their sex life is great,
02:49 and that despite their cheating, they have no intention of ending their primary relationship.
02:57 So we're discussing why do men cheat, but we're also going to be discussing why do women cheat.
03:03 Why do we cheat?
03:04 And we've -- I wouldn't say we've all done it, but I'm sure sitting down here, you know,
03:10 in some formal fashion, and we'll find out the definition because we speak specifically in this context about physical.
03:19 But as we're seeing now with the advent of social media, it's across a broader spectrum.
03:25 But I read the definition.
03:28 Thoughts?
03:30 Well, firstly, you were speaking about the research that was done, right?
03:36 We know all women and all men in the world wasn't interviewed, right?
03:40 So it's from a --
03:41 Correct.
03:42 -- attachment of people based on culture, et cetera.
03:43 So I said to not premise first.
03:45 Very important to know that.
03:47 When we talk about surveys, it could be six people in a thousand, if you're lucky.
03:52 So I just want to present that.
03:54 Right.
03:55 So I will go from some -- the information from actual conversations, right, with people.
04:01 So we're going on our general first why people cheat.
04:05 Most times in terms of the responses I've gotten is that they are missing something from the relationship.
04:11 Okay.
04:12 Right?
04:13 So even if it is expressed physically in terms of sex, right, sometimes it's because of excitement, so sex will bring the excitement.
04:21 Sometimes sex brings intimacy, right?
04:23 Sometimes sex brings a feeling of being cared for.
04:26 Sometimes sex is even an outlet to vent that maybe they didn't have.
04:32 Sometimes even sex brings the variety because maybe the person they're with have a certain format that they only want things a certain way.
04:41 Yeah.
04:42 Right?
04:43 Dead fish.
04:44 And sex brings that.
04:47 So I'll give them one angle because there are a few other reasons, but I'll give one angle first of they're missing something from the relationship.
04:54 Right.
04:55 And you can explore that.
04:56 Okay.
04:57 There's a lot, guys, that I want to cover in this particular episode, this conversation.
05:02 One, of course, we've recognized is across both genders, male and female, sex is a big part of it.
05:09 Right.
05:10 And sex is really where a man really hit the ego because let's face it, you know, a woman cheats on her man and all you're thinking is, "How did her man do it?"
05:19 Yeah.
05:20 You understand?
05:21 So you haven't even gone down to the part or you haven't even reached the area of why the woman cheated, you know?
05:28 What is going through your mind at that point is what happened.
05:31 And you're one where you don't want details.
05:35 One question, the first thing men ask is, "Was he bigger than me?"
05:39 You know?
05:40 That's like the main thing, you know?
05:42 Right.
05:43 Did you have an orgasm with him?
05:46 But to go back to what you're saying about sex, I feel like everything in the world is about sex except sex.
05:53 Sex is about power.
05:54 Right.
05:55 A lot of the time what I realize, especially for men, and the reason why men cheat is that they start to feel powerless in their actual relationship.
06:06 Even if the woman could be the most doting wife or the most caring person in their life, something that she might be doing, not giving them that feeling of, "I am a man anymore."
06:20 And usually, if you notice, most men date or cheat down while most women cheat up.
06:27 And what I mean by that is that most men will always cheat below their status in life.
06:35 It will never be somebody sweeter than their girl.
06:37 So a woman not cheating for no $200 date.
06:40 Basically.
06:41 She's not going to risk her relationship for that.
06:43 But a man just might.
06:46 No, but if she's like a $150 date, she might.
06:49 There you go.
06:50 Right?
06:51 I mean, if I had to put it in my two cents, I would say, let's talk about humans on the whole, but men, we cheat because we can.
07:01 That's the way I see it.
07:03 Everything leads up to that one factor.
07:05 There's a sense of mortality we feel.
07:07 We know time is of the essence.
07:09 So even if we're happy, we're real happy with somebody, but you go to a party like the boys are real drinking and the girl wink in the corner, and all of a sudden you get more second winks.
07:17 Next, her friend comes, I want your phone number.
07:21 It's not even just validation, but it's because we can.
07:26 And that is we have to separate that reality from narcissism.
07:30 Right?
07:31 Because it applies to both men and women.
07:32 But when you say we can, Val, let's do a deeper dive into that.
07:36 When you say we can, because women can.
07:38 Okay, I could, I suppose, usually walk over, right?
07:41 To cross the highway.
07:42 But I can cross the actual highway, run across.
07:46 It's not a matter of right or wrong anymore.
07:49 And because you're pressing with time, as a mortal individual, time is of the essence.
07:54 Again, you can be real happy.
07:56 And then the whole concept of cheating, we may have to divide it because the preconceived notion of cheating a long time was sex.
08:03 But now some people feel a worse horn when they find somebody else confiding and they're talking about you with them.
08:10 You understand?
08:11 So it has different levels.
08:13 This is what we started off by saying that now it's more, as you said, before the advent of social media, it was physical.
08:21 But now there's cheating with regards to the first time, from the time someone sends you a message and you're looking for, you know, we have this like culture.
08:31 You want to get as many likes.
08:33 And a man or a woman sends you, or it depends, because a woman could send a woman and a man to a man.
08:39 There's actually another study that I will talk about later.
08:44 You get that like, and then you send, or they might send you a message looking good or a smiley face, and then you respond.
08:52 And then you feel good about it.
08:54 The next thing you know, there's a private message.
08:56 From the time you engage in a thought based on this study and based on, I mean, just having a discussion, I'm sure we could relate to our own feelings, that's cheating.
09:06 You're now confiding or you're open to exploring something further.
09:12 You know, people say, well, it's just window shopping, and as long as I don't go in and purchase anything, that's okay.
09:17 No, from the time the thought is there, it is now considered a form of cheating.
09:22 You're open to it, and it's just a matter of time and place.
09:25 And the predator at that point, men are predators, women are predators.
09:34 So, we're not differentiating here, even though we're talking about why men cheat.
09:37 You know, we're just kind of moving all around.
09:40 But can we settle, has everyone here cheated before?
09:44 At Cards? What are we talking about?
09:47 Let's be honest.
09:49 Yes, I have.
09:50 I have cheated, and I've been cheated on.
09:53 I have been cheated on as well.
09:55 I can say that the feeling of being cheated on, which is another discussion that, you know, I was looking at, I think it was Steve Harvey, and they say men cheat, but women do it better.
10:09 By far.
10:10 They know how to do it better.
10:12 And a lot of times, I don't know if they have a better way of cheating or they're smarter at it.
10:19 But I think what it is is men are so caught up in ego that you think to yourself, "That can't happen to me.
10:26 They wouldn't cheat on me," because you think that you are the boss.
10:30 And when it happens, it hits you such a gut punch that sometimes you can't even, you know, it's like you can't breathe.
10:39 So, you might have done it 20 times, but that woman did it one time.
10:43 But I actually think that women, it's not that they could do it better, it's that women have more respect for their men than men have for women while cheating.
10:51 But what I'm saying to you is that's why they don't get caught.
10:54 It's not a matter of they're better.
10:56 Respect for their men?
10:57 No, I think that's the opposite.
10:59 You're not opening up the conversation here.
11:01 The conversation.
11:02 No, no.
11:03 Nile said something.
11:04 Val said something.
11:05 So, I'm going to go around because I don't want to miss some of the points.
11:08 Right.
11:09 So, we're coming back to the respect.
11:11 Respect every woman, respect the men more while cheating.
11:14 So, before, Nile said that sex is about power, right?
11:18 And I disagree with you because everybody have a different reason why they have sex, right?
11:23 And they have a different reason on a different day.
11:25 So, Monday, you have sex with your girlfriend or your wife for a specific reason.
11:29 Tuesday could be something different.
11:31 And I'm using it in that sense because if we just go with human behavior, it's toward feeling action.
11:35 We're going on here toward creating a feeling and creating action.
11:38 And that may be something different at a different time.
11:40 So, even when he is talking about Steve Harvey making his blanket statements about men,
11:44 but his blanket statements about women, I disagree with even thinking most men because, again, it's very situational.
11:52 And I'm glad we're talking about it.
11:53 So, yes, we could form some kind of precedence, but we're still very situational.
11:57 Because even when he's saying to cross the, right, it's different reasons.
12:02 Sometimes it could be because of time. Sometimes it could be because of inefficiency.
12:06 Sometimes it could be because of excitement.
12:08 It could be a different reason why you want to run across the highway versus take it.
12:11 So, we're going with situational.
12:13 So, sometimes it's about power, so I agree with you there, right?
12:17 Val, what you were saying before, and I'm losing some of these points here.
12:22 That's right. That's right. Do you want to use my --
12:24 Right. Mortality. Right.
12:26 Yes, yes or no, and I wanted to address that because some men who was telling me, well, it was in front of me, so take it, right?
12:36 That a lot of times, the stem of that, and which this is our main point in, say, 70%, maybe 80% of men that I spoke to that I know that cheated,
12:47 it's because of low self-esteem.
12:49 And let me explain that, right?
12:51 Because if you say, well, once it's in front of me, I will take it, I will then ask, how do you rate yourself?
12:57 And most men, I say, nine out of ten. Some men say, I say, 20 out of ten.
13:01 So, I say then, why then you will go to a woman who's a two out of ten if it's just presented in front of you?
13:07 And most times, it's because of low self-esteem and/or coming from scarcity, meaning that I can't get no more.
13:15 I have my wife, I have my girlfriend, and maybe I can't get no more, so wherever I get in, I take in it.
13:20 And I'm putting that up front because that low self-esteem is one of the major factors.
13:25 Then somebody said about respect, right?
13:28 That women respect their men more.
13:30 I disagree now again. I didn't speak to all the women in the world, so I understand.
13:34 I know you're not on surveys.
13:35 Right? But the women that have told me that they cheated, right, most times that respect is not necessary for the men, but for themselves.
13:44 And I'm going to explain because they don't want to look bad publicly.
13:47 Now I'll go into a study. The study shows that women care more about their reputation, right, on a whole, how they look to people.
13:54 Actually, maybe it's humans and all, because men, we have egos, so I'm not pinpointing women, but I'm using it here.
14:00 A lot of times, they do it slicker because they don't want to look bad to society.
14:04 More than a man. A man might feel bad because he don't want people to know that he was cheated on because that would bruise his ego.
14:11 Not that he cheated, right, but a woman don't want people to see them as being loose or whatever it may be in terms, in the derogatory terms.
14:20 So it's not necessary to have respect for the husband or the man, but that they don't want to look bad in the eyes of the public.
14:26 Well, the eyes of the public, that's seen when what is happening.
14:29 So we're talking about how reflection of what you try to accomplish.
14:32 Well, it depends where the one take place.
14:34 Well, agreed, but I would hope that nobody, you know, doing it out in the open and just while.
14:40 Because sometimes a tape could come out.
14:43 Well, more than sometimes.
14:44 Well, the tape's happening. That is just wildness to begin with.
14:47 That's not supposed to be happening, but point is, the effort that I've seen that women take to ensure that they don't get caught, right,
14:58 it's always come from a point where this man can't take this. If it is, he find out about it. He cannot take it.
15:07 And why you call that respect versus it could be fear?
15:10 I agree, but fear still has form of respect, you know. At the end of the day, you can fear your leaders, that you still have manners.
15:18 But you're not necessarily saying that you fear that he can't take it because there are those that you say, listen, if he finds out, he may get violent.
15:27 But there's also the fear, there's also just that you don't want to break their heart.
15:31 Well, I know what you're saying, because they care about the person. Because prior to the cheating, this is two people in a relationship, we don't know how long.
15:37 But what I want to add to it too is like, we could all agree and we could spend years and longer talking about why people cheat.
15:42 But why I mention because we can is because there will be contributing factors that leads up to the action of cheating.
15:51 But because we can, that's why we do it.
15:54 I can't speak again, I like surveys, but I don't put too much into it because surveys are very, you know, finicky because it could be a different country, different culture, different demographic, different age.
16:05 I mean, it's all different factors. But the primal instinct of a man.
16:09 All right, so let me say you're happy in a relationship, you're real happy.
16:12 But subconsciously, primal instinct wise, we always seeking to have the ideal meat.
16:20 We seeking to have the ideal meat. That has gotten lost.
16:24 I thought you said meat there, I was just like, okay.
16:27 That has gotten lost over time because we want different reasons for relationship or we believe different reasons for relationship.
16:34 But regard to, so you have a woman, she have her children, all live in a house together, everything nice.
16:39 But what would make you want to go? Yes, having good sex, sex, sex.
16:43 I mean, that's a number one contributing factor for most men. I talk to the brethren like, boy, don't get married.
16:49 If you don't want to have sex, don't get married. You know, thank God for one birthday a year, right?
16:54 But if you haven't beyond that and much better than that, and you still go to a club or you go out or you travel to do a seminar somewhere in the country,
17:01 so you know there's no way her friends, nobody could know.
17:06 But you still find yourself in a position, not that, we can't stop the opportunity coming, right?
17:12 But to act on it now, this is the level we're going now.
17:16 It's still, to me as a man, I think it would boil down to what you're saying about self-worth.
17:22 Yes, there's a sense of validation, but we also, but immortality I talk about, as we get older, most men as they get older,
17:30 whether they want to be in a relationship or not, in their 50s or 60s, we still want to know we're still attractive to the other sex.
17:38 We still have game. We still have some kind of something, you know?
17:42 We could go to the beach and do this with our wife or girlfriend, but once it was going to look, we're good with that.
17:47 But then to go beyond that now, like I said, there's many different reasons.
17:51 It could be a cultural thing, say, when your father cheated your mother, the house you grew up in,
17:55 seeing there was no respect, so you'd have to follow back on.
17:58 Well, your value system, so are you being a man?
18:00 So kind of like what Yohansi mentioned about there is validity in the argument that cheating may be connected to a sense of,
18:09 or multiple partners may be a contributing factor in security.
18:16 So because in doing that, you need that validation, and if you're confident within yourself, then two things would happen.
18:22 One, you would need that validation, and two, if you found that your partner wasn't giving you what you require,
18:28 you'd simply walk away.
18:30 Or say something.
18:32 Or say something.
18:33 And many men, and I've found this more with men than women, again, I speak to all men and all women,
18:38 but more men, we tend to be afraid to say what we want and to say exactly what we have a problem with
18:45 and what we want in a relationship, sexually or otherwise.
18:49 And because of that, again, that comes from low self-esteem, because you don't believe in what you want is valid.
18:55 So you're going down to, "Hey, I don't like the eyelashes."
18:58 But you didn't say nothing, but every time you see the eyelashes, it turns you off.
19:01 And then it turns you off enough times, it turns you off from her.
19:03 And then you meet a woman who does have the eyelashes, and then, if you understand what I'm saying,
19:07 instead of just saying, "I don't like this," or "I like this."
19:09 Now, the person, your female counterpart, you have to acquiesce to their needs, right?
19:14 And they could end up leaving you, but sometimes, "Well, I'm afraid she'll leave me if I say this."
19:18 Again, you're going back down to the root of it.
19:21 So if you're able to say exactly what you want, and this person giving you--
19:25 say, a person, okay, they listen to your needs, and they're giving you, let's say, 90% of what you want,
19:30 or to the point where that you're satisfied, then you don't need anything else.
19:36 Even if a real nice woman comes.
19:38 Even if you're away in Alaska, nobody will ever know anything.
19:42 If you are satisfied, then, and you value yourself and your relationship,
19:47 which goes back to self-esteem, then you win.
19:50 So I'm putting it that way to explore the reasons, because none of us perfect.
19:54 So all of us could end up as men, even men listening, to the scenario where we feel something.
20:01 So that's a real, real good part in this conversation to take a small break,
20:06 because the other question, on the other side of that, which we'll be talking about when we come back from the break,
20:12 is what happens if your partner is just simply asexual, or simply not physically attracted to you again,
20:21 but there's still some sort of love there.
20:23 But we'll debate that, have that discussion.
20:25 All right.
20:26 [music]
20:39 So thank you for staying with us at Manhood.
20:41 This conversation is starting to heat up.
20:44 We're speaking about why do men cheat, and why do women cheat, why do people cheat.
20:49 And we've sort of brought it into men cheat primarily because of insecurity,
20:57 and women cheat, I think, because sometimes they tune out.
21:04 They themselves, there's no reason why a woman doesn't have an ego, like why she cannot move from a place of ego herself.
21:13 You know, you find that we paint it with a broad brush to say that men cheat because they can,
21:20 and out of physical attraction, but women cheat out from an emotional place.
21:26 You know, again, that's a survey, that's a broad brush.
21:29 I don't think so.
21:30 I think both parties, you feel attractive, there's something lacking in your relationship, you're just built that way.
21:37 There are many things, because as I was telling you guys at the break, I'm going to share with you now,
21:44 I have heard in a documentary that I was doing based on domestic violence, when you go into communities,
21:50 women actually tell you, if they don't beat me, they don't love me.
21:53 Right?
21:54 And therefore, part of that is what they receive as love might be some sort of act of violence.
22:01 There are many different areas where people may feel certain types of emotion,
22:12 and one of that could be the fact that, and then, of course, you have what triggers the man,
22:16 because when they now go with the partner, or they go with someone else,
22:19 you express to them why they went with this particular man, which then sends a man volcano, eruption, violence ensues,
22:28 because you either want to kill that man, you want to kill the woman, you want to, you know, or you beat them.
22:34 And so it's not as, I wouldn't say simple as saying, when I was cheated on, it broke my heart,
22:45 but it broke my ego first, because I was in shock, like, what?
22:50 This person, how?
22:51 I would have never seen it coming.
22:53 And the, I wouldn't even say the irony, the irony was, with that particular person, I'd never cheated on.
23:01 Right?
23:02 In the past, I'd cheated, so maybe it's karma.
23:05 In the past, I'd cheated, but with that particular person, even though they thought I did, I actually never did,
23:10 because I was, you know.
23:13 Trying to be a better person.
23:14 Trying to be a better person, and I was hook, line, and sinker.
23:17 But it happened.
23:18 And when it happened, like I said, the ego was the first thing that was hit, asking, not the questions that you would think most men would ask,
23:26 but it was more the why, because I felt I'd given everything.
23:31 And then, you know, so the second thing would have been, of course, then heartbreak, because you realize, okay, can I move past this?
23:39 And so I'm saying that we really have to look at, there's no broad brush, that's basically what I'm saying,
23:46 because as I talk in here, you know, emotions kind of build up again, and you're kind of going back to that space,
23:52 and you know, like, rah!
23:54 You know, type of.
23:55 As you say, emotion, I'm not going to ask you a question.
23:57 This might be a therapy question, right?
23:59 But I realize that I'm waiting for the therapy situation.
24:03 I'm not sure if they're asking because we have enough time, and I'm doing, we have enough napkins.
24:08 Right.
24:09 No, don't put me as the target.
24:12 Let's ask a general question.
24:14 I wanted that big question.
24:16 Because you're saying the ego hit.
24:18 Right.
24:19 We could make a general statement.
24:20 Right.
24:21 Use me as an example.
24:22 It's for the betterment.
24:23 I can't stand out that a woman cheats on him, the ego is hit.
24:26 Right.
24:27 I have the same question as what you were saying before in terms of why you were hit first,
24:31 because that means we had some kind of insecurity there from before.
24:34 Okay.
24:35 So, going back to that, being secure in yourself and the relationship, because I can tell you
24:40 an example, two examples actually I've had of clients who told me that they were cheating on.
24:45 One man actually came in the house and found them.
24:49 In his mind, now he was angry, right?
24:53 And he was hurt.
24:54 But, and he said he was, he felt secure that he did everything he could in the relationship.
25:01 Right.
25:02 And he felt he did everything in himself.
25:04 And he said he almost certain, because of course he had to have a conversation after
25:07 to find out why, but he was almost certain it's nothing that he was lacking.
25:11 Right?
25:12 And how he reacted to it, it might sound a little strange, but he, he opened the door
25:18 and he just said, calmly, you know, pack your bags, et cetera, et cetera.
25:22 The man got frightened, he said, brother, this, I not, I not vexed at you.
25:27 You must just do your thing.
25:29 Right.
25:30 And he was calm about it.
25:31 I understand why you did it, you know.
25:32 He was calm about it.
25:33 And then he went, he went, I think he left and he said, well, he expect her to leave,
25:37 et cetera, et cetera, you wait, wait outside.
25:39 And I, when he told me that, I was like, I don't even know if I have that in me.
25:44 Right.
25:45 And for most men, but because, and he came because he was hurting, I don't want to get
25:50 over it, but I didn't feel any, any sense of insecurity.
25:54 And he said, you know what?
25:55 That he could, if he could do this for one woman, he could do this for the next woman.
25:58 He said he can't predict what will happen, but he was secure in himself.
26:01 So, going into that, because I started questioning, am I that secure in myself?
26:06 And the answer was no, you know.
26:08 Right.
26:09 And, and, and at that moment I thought about what do I need to do to reach a level of security?
26:14 Now, again, I'm not saying a level of security would mean that you wouldn't feel hurt, you
26:17 know.
26:18 Yeah, of course.
26:19 Or you wouldn't even roll in the grub and cry, cry about it, you know.
26:21 But he believed he would be able to deal with it in the best, proper way.
26:24 Dealing with it is that part.
26:25 Yeah.
26:26 And you said, you said something there that I want to touch on, because we, in the asking,
26:30 why do men cheat and why do women cheat, is also the signs to, to know whether somebody
26:36 cheats.
26:37 And when you said there about you don't know emotionally whether, you know, as you speak
26:41 about caring or not, one of the things that they show is a woman, one of the telltale
26:47 signs is when someone is emotionally now disconnected.
26:50 And, and so if, if, if when a, when your partner finds out, if they're very apathetic at that
26:57 point, and it's just like, well, you know, and you, and some people put it down to survivability.
27:02 They're putting their walls up.
27:04 It's more to it than that.
27:05 You know, they say the, the old people say there's more than a mortar than a pestle.
27:09 And what you may find, I'm not saying again in all cases, this is again just a study,
27:14 where it shows that certain things are removed if they become a lot more secretive.
27:20 If you find that you're getting sex more, get this, sex more or less is also a determining
27:28 factor, because more could be out of guilt, right?
27:31 And less means they're getting satisfied somewhere else, right?
27:35 So, so one of the other factors, the fact that the emotion is, is no longer there.
27:40 So they're not asking you, how was your day?
27:43 What's happening with you?
27:44 And if you do communicate, again, it's very apathetic, it's very surface level.
27:49 And all these are some signs of the fact that, that not, it's not necessary.
27:55 I don't want, I don't want people out there to go on, wait a minute, tick, tick, tick,
27:59 tick, tick, and then accusation started.
28:01 Robert said, Robert said, Robert said, Robert said, Robert said, Robert said, Robert said,
28:05 it's not, all of a sudden you start to jam me more today.
28:08 No, no, something wrong, right?
28:09 What, what Robert's saying is incongruous, right?
28:12 When you're in a relationship, you must know the energy of, if you're invested in the relationship,
28:16 let me go there, if you're emotionally present in the relationship,
28:19 you must know when there's incongruence, something.
28:21 So, more sex, less sex, more of this, less of this, the person moving different, you always know.
28:28 Yeah, there's no, there's kissing stop, kissing on the lip stop, that's always a telltale sign.
28:32 Telltale sign.
28:33 But some of you touched on earlier about not being able to express like,
28:36 when you're, just a simple comment about, well, I don't know, they like the eyelashes and all.
28:39 Some, a lot of men don't have the know-how to communicate.
28:44 Now, when we do go out now, we find somebody who seems able to read us better than our partner,
28:50 so it's no longer us being able to communicate, but they know how to reach us, communication-wise.
28:55 That's also a way to cheat.
28:57 Now, this topic is, it has to go more beyond, because there's cheating, there's having an affair,
29:02 and there are different reasons to those levels, right?
29:04 So, what I think is, as far as the cheating goes, it also, and this will be what your studies do, with your qualifications,
29:15 health and mental wellness, and aging.
29:19 As we get older, everybody, we want different things.
29:22 From something as simple as testosterone levels dropping on a man, you just don't care for sex no more with your wife.
29:26 Yeah.
29:27 Right?
29:28 But you will go on emotionally cheating on that old man out there, all the exchange numbers, all the chatting all the time.
29:32 So, you might find that those testosterone levels with someone else who gives you that vibe or that feeling re-energizes you.
29:41 Yeah.
29:42 And a lot of women, too, as they get older, they're now finding themselves, a lot of women give up so much,
29:46 so much to support their family, their mate, whatever the case, and now they're going back to school,
29:51 they're getting further in their job, they want to travel.
29:54 So, a lot of things, and it's just because of, again, men and women, inability to communicate,
29:59 that things have changed as an individual.
30:02 I like that.
30:03 You know, and again, cheating is always a cop-out, too.
30:05 As you mentioned that, ironically, that was the reason I was given, when I was cheated on.
30:11 You were working so much?
30:12 It was, apart from working, I was hardly ever around, I'm always working, but also, they needed to find themselves.
30:18 They were still looking for themselves.
30:21 So, I mean, whether it's a cop-out or not, it happened, I can't stand by and go, "Oh, I had nothing to do with."
30:27 Because, again, people cheat, people cheat, but the person that's cheated on must also, in certain cases,
30:34 accept some sort of responsibility.
30:37 What were you doing to contribute to that?
30:40 Nobody's saying that, you know, they're not responsible for their own behaviors and what they've done,
30:46 but you must, in hindsight, you know, you must introspect and say, "Okay, well, did I deny them?"
30:54 For example, if it's on the woman's side, and the woman says, "Listen, I'm just not on sex anymore."
30:58 Right? "I've reached that point, I'm asexual."
31:00 And you continue to show that, you know, you might be a high performer, you may want it,
31:08 but you don't want to go out, you may express, "Listen, I really don't want to go out there,"
31:11 but you're constantly denied, denied, denied, and your boys might be talking about, I don't know,
31:15 whatever they may talk about.
31:16 No, I agree with what you said, there's responsibility, but there's also reality,
31:20 where it's not a matter of responsibility anymore.
31:22 Responsibility, you got into a partnership with somebody, but the reality is,
31:28 sometimes it's completely out of your…
31:30 Children, work…
31:31 Because if you're going to be cheated on, you're going to be cheated on.
31:33 Like I gave an example, you're working, you're career-driven, right?
31:36 But you're unaware, all right, yes, that you were not physically home there with her, what not.
31:43 But at the same time, it was always okay.
31:46 Again, people cheat because they can, that's what I, I'll go back to what I said.
31:50 So if you really think all the factors, we can sit around and talk about what would make somebody cheat,
31:54 but it's the step to commit the action is because we can, and it must be a sense.
32:01 That's another good point to take a quick break on, to regroup.
32:06 A lot to take in there, a lot to take in there on manhood.
32:09 And we always say the conversation, the conversation doesn't end here, the conversation must continue.
32:15 Correct.
32:16 This episode must come to an end, but the conversation doesn't.
32:18 True.
32:19 So let's take a quick break.
32:20 [Music]
32:31 So we have to take a break.
32:33 I wish we could start to film somebody behind the scenes in the conversations that we have when we go to break,
32:39 something that we'll certainly look to going forward with other episodes because so much was discussed in that short space of time.
32:46 Like, can women really have guy friends?
32:50 A topic, a topic.
32:51 And vice versa.
32:52 We don't, we don't, no, that's a whole other episode.
32:54 We just saying what we kind of briefly spoke about, just like how you mentioned a quick break is sometimes why women, you know,
33:00 go, go looking for their partners.
33:02 That may sink in or it may not, you know, might have a double entendre.
33:06 So.
33:07 It does.
33:08 There are many, there are many, many other conversations with regards to why do men cheat?
33:13 Why do women cheat?
33:14 Like you said, can we have, could women have guy friends?
33:17 When the woman says, I want to go out with my girls and you're dressed in a certain way and you come home late at night and you're all smelled up and all the rest of it,
33:26 you ask yourself, you know, the why in that.
33:29 And sometimes you say, well, it's for me.
33:31 I want to go out and I want to feel good.
33:33 It's like, well, okay, well, I'm not making you feel good.
33:35 The other thing is this proverbial shoulder to cry on.
33:38 The man who's outed the predators by being your own brethren.
33:41 We spoke about on the very first episode about being better as brothers and about manhood and about a woman going and what you ask yourself,
33:49 what does that man have apart from maybe physical presence?
33:53 What does that man have that you are, you are either lacking or stopped?
33:59 And that is where I want us to sort of bring this particular episode to a close in terms of having that discussion to really leave people listening to this
34:10 apart from some of the, whether they experience it, whether they'll be looking at a checklist,
34:15 what are you doing to either encourage it or what are you doing that you feel that you need to cheat or you have cheated and leave them with some sort of, I mean, that's what you're here for.
34:29 Leave them with something, I don't know, some kind of, don't do it.
34:33 Don't do it.
34:34 Let me talk from a point of me being the outside man.
34:37 Right.
34:38 I've been in relationships which have been right quite recently, actually.
34:43 And what I realize is that in especially in relationships, went back to communication.
34:50 No one is really see the real things that they want, especially with a wife.
34:55 No, especially in the sexual interest.
34:59 You know, as we age, our tastes might change.
35:04 And I think sometimes we fear that the taste change.
35:09 I can't just say to my wife of 10, 15 years old, let me try ******.
35:15 You know, you might be repulsed at that and you might feel ashamed at that.
35:20 You see, I know I'm cutting you off.
35:23 Yeah, go ahead.
35:24 What I was saying before was.
35:25 Thank you for cutting him off because where he was going to go with that.
35:28 I thought this was mine.
35:30 I believe this is all.
35:31 I'm being honest and being with your self-esteem to see what it is.
35:36 And this is even we go in male, female, why in relationship and communication before.
35:41 Quickly, I had a couple that came in for couples counseling.
35:44 Right.
35:45 And they were having serious issues.
35:47 Well, they said serious issues, miscommunications, etc.
35:50 So I told them, make a list.
35:52 Put honestly what you want from this person.
35:54 Honestly, what you want from this was you have five minutes and do it.
35:57 Right.
35:58 The first thing the guy was like, you know what?
36:00 He wanted up, wanted up, up every day.
36:03 And he was afraid to tell his wife that because she would think, well, that is all he wants.
36:08 After he said it, the wife started cracking up, laughing, laughing hysterical on the girl.
36:12 I was like, what happened?
36:13 And she said, you know, I was thinking the same thing.
36:16 Why didn't you just talk?
36:18 And that was all significant to me because a lot of times, even I remember a man coming for tobacco.
36:24 Right.
36:25 He come in and tobacco.
36:26 Before you go to that point, just let us just know that that is an anomaly that you could tell your wife was significant.
36:33 I want this, especially a **** up every day.
36:36 As Violet mentioned early on about having one birthday a year.
36:40 You know, fortunately, I have a birthday a year.
36:42 Because for a woman.
36:43 That would be a common misconception.
36:45 Exactly.
36:46 I don't know if that is an anomaly.
36:48 Okay.
36:49 Studies have shown.
36:50 Studies have shown.
36:51 So I was saying the guy came in for tobacco.
36:54 Right.
36:55 And maybe half way through the session, I realized it was a tobacco for the outside woman.
37:00 Right.
37:01 And this man was literally in the ground crying, you know.
37:04 Right.
37:05 And I was like, but is the outside woman.
37:07 And then he was explaining all these things that she gave to him that he was missing from his wife.
37:13 But then I was like, well, so your wife didn't want to do it.
37:16 And then mostly he's like, well, I didn't tell her anything.
37:18 But like, we didn't tell anything.
37:19 I was like, why?
37:20 Because he was afraid of XYZ, how she'd react, etc.
37:23 And I even related that.
37:24 I remember in one of my relationships where I cheated.
37:26 And it was because I didn't say what I want.
37:29 And the other girl, she, as somebody said, anticipated.
37:33 But even then, somehow I felt more comfortable with this person saying, well, you know, I like this.
37:38 I do like this.
37:39 I want this.
37:40 Well, we're a listener.
37:41 But I didn't.
37:42 And I was afraid or maybe even wondering how the person would react if I said that.
37:46 And if she says she can't give you what you've asked for, what's your predicament at that point?
37:52 Then I have to decide.
37:53 Because there's love.
37:54 No, then I decide if I could spend the rest of my life with all this.
37:58 Fair enough.
37:59 Right?
38:00 If I can't.
38:01 A lot of the times, though, some things that we may want, we might not want to do to our wives.
38:06 I feel like I might want to do some things, even though I could ask her and she may be receptive.
38:13 I still don't want to do to her because I feel like I want my wife to be my child's mother.
38:20 Right?
38:21 I don't want to do some vile, despicable things to her.
38:24 You know how much couples cannot look at porn together?
38:28 Because that's when your real dark side comes in, what you like and what you don't like.
38:32 Exactly.
38:33 And then you might ask the question, I wanted that, what you wanted.
38:36 Now, I might be sounding a little utopian here because to be honest, this is something that even with my wife, that we promise each other that we'll be honest.
38:46 But I want to ask the dark side of things because if you're hiding a dark side, it means you're still holding something away from somebody.
38:53 And if I'm able, first in myself, to face that dark side, right, that's a big step in the esteem, what you're talking about.
39:01 And then if she's able and we could discuss it because I'm a little utopian, that's what I think a relationship should be.
39:07 We talk about communication.
39:09 If you have that in you, you're supposed to bring it out.
39:12 And some people is misconstrued and you could argue with me, the marriage bed is undefiled.
39:17 And it says that for a reason because if you share in with that person, if two become one, you're not perfect.
39:23 You have some nastiness in you, right?
39:25 And then we could even explore the why, you know, I like it upside down because, and that is a wonderful sharing moment, you and your wife.
39:31 Your wife say, I like it this way because, and you understand.
39:35 And if you're securing yourself, right, and this is what I think a couple should be building to be secure with each other, right?
39:42 Now, you could discover something you don't like, you know, and that's something that's a danger of it.
39:46 And that's where we stay away from it.
39:48 That's it. Because in that, and I purposely cut in there, Johansson, to say that the fear could also be with that insecurity,
39:56 that with that insecurity is that she may share that dark side with you or vice versa.
40:01 And then your question then might be, so that's what you did in the past?
40:05 You know, like this.
40:06 That's the insecurity coming in there.
40:07 That's what I'm talking about.
40:09 Now, when women, it's like the question, when a man asks a woman, how many men have you been with?
40:14 And women will always say that, or men will say that whatever number she tell you, multiply that by seven or ten or whatever.
40:19 Well, I heard three, but.
40:21 Well, three, right?
40:22 So, there's that darkness to anything, but also the question of if, you know, because you could ask,
40:29 you could show her a dark side and vice versa, she can then say, because there's nothing like a male or female,
40:35 both can be jealous.
40:37 And you may say something that she may not be open to, but she's jealous of the fact that you may have had those experiences,
40:42 be it a threesome, be it doing it a certain way, whatever the case may be.
40:47 But again, this conversation, this type of conversation doesn't end.
40:52 We will continue it in discussions with manhood.
40:54 Yeah, it's definitely ongoing.
40:56 This particular episode, of course, we must come to a close at some point.
41:00 And I just want your thoughts on have we accepted horning as part of our culture?
41:07 We see it in the music, we see it in the conversation, people laugh and joke about it,
41:11 as long as it doesn't really impact them, or it's something that may have happened years and years ago,
41:16 and you could have moved past.
41:17 When you said to me about napkins, I've moved past that.
41:21 And so have we accepted horning as part of our culture?
41:26 And what are some of your closing, I wouldn't even say thoughts, messages maybe,
41:33 to persons that you don't leave them open to go and start accusing the other partner?
41:38 Because there's one thing that I say, and this is going to be my closing,
41:41 apart from wrapping up to thank our sponsors, that a therapist, when you do couples therapy,
41:47 I don't believe in couples therapy, I'm just putting it out there.
41:50 Because you have a conversation, you open up, and then therapist goes, "Okay, 45 minutes, up."
41:57 And you've now gone, your wounds open, and you're now left to your own devices.
42:02 You're not going to mind me then if you say that.
42:04 Well, I'm just talking in general, I'm not talking about my specific.
42:08 Well, to answer the question, I have accepted it.
42:11 I think that cheating is just a part of life.
42:15 I think that forever is a very long time, and they must have some sort of--
42:20 I understand the weaknesses that both parties may have, right?
42:24 So for me, cheating is not a big deal.
42:27 The woman that I'm looking for is that if she does cheat, one, she cheats on me respectfully.
42:33 She cheats on me with--
42:35 Is that an oxymoron, though? Cheat on you respectfully?
42:38 I mean--
42:40 You want to fight for your partners?
42:43 Let me find a social media--
42:45 Are you speaking more of an open relationship or cheating?
42:48 Because if she's cheating, or if you're okay with it, then she's not cheating.
42:52 I feel that me not knowing about it is cheating.
42:55 Ignorance is bliss.
42:56 Right? If it is that you're doing it for--you understand why you did it.
43:01 You're not just being wild.
43:04 You're taking my feelings into consideration.
43:07 You're taking my health into consideration.
43:09 You're taking my secrets into consideration.
43:11 And you're making adult decisions because some people just do it out of wildness.
43:16 And that is where--so, again, it's the choice of woman that I'm choosing.
43:23 I'll agree with you.
43:24 I'm not going to get upset at every person.
43:26 As we get older, the dynamic will have to change.
43:28 So I'll just quickly say this.
43:29 I don't accept it as a cultural thing.
43:31 I don't accept it as a thing.
43:32 What happens is every individual, every situation, every relationship is special and different
43:37 and in different circumstances because you could cheat out of revenge
43:40 because you get cheated on.
43:41 There's cheating, there's cheating, and there's having an affair.
43:44 There's different levels of what will bring all this together, right?
43:47 And make people--propel you to go this way.
43:49 And then also to justify it, narcissist or not.
43:52 So I just believe that once--as we get older, we understand what is required of forming a union with somebody else.
43:59 You want to grow old with somebody.
44:01 This is not a teenager or somebody that's 20, Silicon Dado.
44:03 And only time will tell.
44:05 Some breakups may have to happen.
44:07 Of course, you may find the perfect person.
44:09 And then there's self-sabotage because you believe--not a matter of insecurities there,
44:14 but you just do believe this won't last forever.
44:18 And I'll go back to the mortality.
44:20 So before I die, should I lose interest in me?
44:22 Maybe.
44:23 I've been well good now.
44:24 But let me just--and I'll just end up quickly.
44:26 Human beings, this is how it is.
44:29 Going back to the very primal sense, we need to feel desired.
44:32 We need to feel attractive.
44:33 We don't have to be told we're attractive.
44:36 We need to have some sense of before what time has gone that we're still, like I said, desired by the opposite sex in all of the cases.
44:44 And then that opens the door.
44:45 That opens the Pandora's box.
44:47 Then any little ability to follow through.
44:49 And it depends on one's character, too.
44:51 So it is no defining thing, but, you know, it is what it is.
44:55 You want it.
44:56 Take it away.
44:57 What I'm going to say is easier said than done.
45:00 The fact that one, yes, I think we as a culture accept honing.
45:05 That doesn't mean it's right.
45:07 The fact that we're using the word cheating means that if we're going by our dictionary definition, we're violating our rule in an illegal manner.
45:15 Fair enough.
45:16 So going back to that truth, again, this is easier said than done because I myself am not perfect at it.
45:22 But if we're saying that we're with someone, it's best we open ourselves to them.
45:26 It may take some time.
45:27 It may take some help.
45:29 But let the person know exactly what's going on, even if it means, you know what, at this stage we really can't satisfy each other anymore.
45:35 Instead of going through cheating because cheating brings heartache in some way to the person.
45:39 Cheating, cheating on the outside man, the outside woman, it creates all these dynamics, especially in the society, because we could go on a whole show about the ill effects of outside children.
45:49 Right?
45:50 So I could go there.
45:51 But what I would say is, going back to that honesty part of it, if you don't like the person anymore, and many times we're not being true to ourselves.
45:58 If you break up with the person, but now after you break up, you're going to the gym now, you know you're supposed to be going to the gym and you want to take care of yourself.
46:07 All of a sudden you go and study.
46:09 When she leaves, now you do the renovations on the house.
46:12 If you understand what I'm saying, we're not being true to ourselves.
46:14 Why are you doing all of that beforehand?
46:16 Exactly.
46:17 So I would leave with, I don't, you see, if you have to reach a point of cheating, it means it's something illegal that you're doing to the relationship.
46:23 If you and that person have an understanding, cool.
46:26 And going back to us men, and we're talking about this as manhood, us men, let me say we're not responsible for women's behavior and how they think, but at least what we could do is be honest with our partner.
46:36 Say, "Darling, I don't like this, I like this, I want more of this, do wear this, wear this all the time."
46:41 You look fat in that dress.
46:42 Say, say exactly.
46:43 With love, right?
46:44 With love.
46:45 So, the aim is not to hurt, but you being honest and you laying it out because if we esteem ourselves enough to say, you know what, this, I am Yohansi, I am Val, these are my standards.
46:57 You know that, you can't pay anybody, but these are my standards, baby, this is what I like and I don't like.
47:03 You have the opportunity to take it or leave it.
47:05 So I do have to now go outside and look for something.
47:09 Great convo, as always, guys.
47:11 You know, this is one of those things taking, there's not much more to be said in terms of me to wrap up this particular episode.
47:19 This is something that, again, we keep saying, the conversation doesn't end.
47:22 We will continue having this conversation, many other areas of the conversation.
47:26 And what we've sort of, what I have understood is once again to the people who ask all the time, like, what do we define as a man?
47:34 Well, what you heard here today gives you some of those answers, your value system.
47:39 And also to both males and females, don't wait until afterwards or until it's happened or until you moved on to make that change.
47:48 Make that change.
47:49 If that change is a positive change that would impact the fact that in a positive way your relationship to avoid the cheating in the first place, then do it while you can.
48:00 As Val had mentioned, our primal, primal needs come down to two things, to be loved and to know that you are enough.
48:09 Once again, Johansi, Val, Niall, Robert, thank you so much for looking at this episode of Manhood.
48:19 Why do people cheat?
48:21 I hope we've answered some of the questions.
48:23 I hope we've had some really, you know, you've really some eye-opening insight into that particular topic.
48:29 We thank our sponsors once again, Racetrack and Jameson.
48:33 Until the next one.
48:34 Manhood brought to you by Jameson natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.