Manhood - Episode 13
Manhood - Episode 13
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00:00:00 Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack.
00:00:07 [MUSIC]
00:00:13 Thank you for joining us for another conversation of manhood.
00:00:17 This one, I know I say it all the time, but this one is going to be special.
00:00:23 Firstly, it's manhood and we've decided to, because of the nature of the topic, to invite two ladies to the set.
00:00:31 Because it's always a conversation based on both sides of the coin.
00:00:37 And we're hoping at the end of this particular conversation to hear both sides and hear both sides respectfully.
00:00:42 Although during that period there's going to be some bit of topsy-turviness, especially with the guests that we have today.
00:00:50 So let me start, Jamie, artist. Jamie is an actress, a brilliant one at that.
00:00:57 Jamie Simmons. Dinea, singer, songwriter, artist, announcer, media personality, a lot of titles.
00:01:07 And she actually started the show before I even got a chance to say something by saying,
00:01:11 "Oh, it's fitting that we put the two women in the middle."
00:01:14 And I think it was the best position at this particular point.
00:01:20 And Johansi is absent today and we'll certainly get his feedback of the recording after.
00:01:27 And a good partner, Rome, needs no introduction, media personality. Rome, we in fit today.
00:01:35 We in fit today. I thought it would have been just an easy one.
00:01:40 Dinea is just waiting to go. So the topic, the topic to start us off here today, to put it into context,
00:01:47 Mr. Right or Mr. Wrong, or Mrs. Right and Mrs. Wrong.
00:01:52 Many a time we go into relationships or in any form of relationship, whether it be marriage or girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever the case may be,
00:02:00 and the person that we're with, we're in it for the wrong reasons.
00:02:05 So you always hear it, "Is he Mr. Right for you?"
00:02:11 Because you find that you go into that relationship and it's all over the place.
00:02:16 You want to date bad boys and then wonder why certain things happen.
00:02:21 So that's just to really get us kicked off.
00:02:24 But we go into a lot more of discussion with regards to women expect men to be clairvoyant,
00:02:30 passive aggressiveness, resentment building up, there's all sorts of things that happen.
00:02:35 So I'm not even going to try and put this into any sort of context.
00:02:38 I'm just going to say, let's just have a conversation, Dinea. Let's just have a conversation.
00:02:45 - Are you done already? - Yeah.
00:02:47 - Excuse me, trouble maker. - Why are you picking on me?
00:02:50 - One time, men and their beep. - Let's hear Dinea.
00:02:54 Never have I ever said that. Just saying, never have I ever.
00:02:59 So what's our thoughts today on issues that men are facing with women and getting some feedback?
00:03:05 Because we've said a lot, Rome, over the conversations that we've had on manhood.
00:03:11 And we've rarely had feedback, unless it was a particular topic like domestic violence,
00:03:17 as to what women are thinking.
00:03:20 But whether it's Mr. Right or Mr. Right now is a question that a lot of women kind of ask themselves.
00:03:30 And with the men, is it the right woman for you at this point in your life?
00:03:35 That is a tricky thing, because men and women pick mates differently.
00:03:42 So I would start off by the men.
00:03:46 First of all, most men you would see are attracted by a woman's physical appearance.
00:03:53 So the first thing that would attract a man is how she looks.
00:03:57 Every man, most men, they want a beautiful woman.
00:04:00 So they're watching out how she looks, her face, her body, that sort of thing.
00:04:03 And then from there, he would look at personality.
00:04:06 And then later on, he would see what else she brings to the table.
00:04:11 With a woman, it kind of is different from-- and this is my perspective of how women select mates, right?
00:04:18 You all will give your opinion on it.
00:04:20 How I see women selecting mates is in their early years, from late teens to early womanhood, early 20s,
00:04:28 they would look at physical appearance of a man.
00:04:32 And as they get older, the physical appearance is not as important as the security that a man brings.
00:04:41 Because a woman looking for a mate, somebody who could raise kids with her,
00:04:45 somebody who could provide security for her and mind the family.
00:04:50 So you would see-- that's why you would find a lot of women,
00:04:53 you would see cases where a young woman with an older man.
00:04:57 And everybody would be like, "But how did that man get through with this girl?"
00:05:00 And that is because some women are looking for security.
00:05:03 So you would say a woman only looking for a man with money,
00:05:05 but it's not really the money alone, she's looking for security.
00:05:08 And part of security is financial security.
00:05:10 So the woman would be more selective of that.
00:05:13 Versus a man, no matter how old he gets, he's still watching, whether it's a young man or an old man,
00:05:19 all the men watching physical appearance first.
00:05:23 So when you meet a man and you say, "Boy, I got a lot of nice personality."
00:05:27 You're looking for a woman and you're already casting her personality.
00:05:30 While the woman now watching the man, how he's dressing, what car he's driving,
00:05:35 how he carries himself, how walking he is, all of that she's watching.
00:05:39 Before she could see like a man, the man finds a nice woman, she's looking good.
00:05:42 "Yeah, boy, that's my boy."
00:05:44 I read this meme that was-- actually it was this morning--
00:05:50 that showed that men-- and again, we're speaking a few men,
00:05:56 but it's two men speaking to all men, not speaking for all men or women.
00:06:01 And what they said was that men look at when they earn and they're successful in life,
00:06:14 they're now looking for that mate, they're now looking for that to have a family.
00:06:18 Whereas women, when they make money, are now saying, "Well, I don't need a man.
00:06:25 I don't need a man to provide for me."
00:06:28 And it all comes out-- Danila, I'll let you take that one.
00:06:30 I just feel like women become more picky probably when they start to make more money.
00:06:37 Because if a woman is looking for security and she doesn't need to look for that anymore,
00:06:42 she can now start focusing on everything else about a man.
00:06:45 So she just becomes more picky. It's not like she doesn't need a man.
00:06:49 Now she doesn't have to stay here for any of the BS at all because she can take care of herself.
00:06:55 So there we go. When I start off by saying men aren't there, and you said,
00:06:59 "I didn't say that, but here we have it."
00:07:02 Yeah, but-- okay. So you're saying women look for men for security.
00:07:09 It's older women right now that prefer younger men to take care of them, to be a sugar baby.
00:07:16 And they just want it for sexual reasons because they reach a point where it's like,
00:07:22 "I can handle myself with this, this, this, this. All I need is somebody to lay down the pipe."
00:07:30 You know what I mean? And young boys doing it.
00:07:34 That comes back to what he just said about when women have money or they mature in life,
00:07:40 they don't look for that stability as the opposite for men.
00:07:44 When they start to get their money and they mature in life is when they start to look to settle down
00:07:48 and to have kids and build a family.
00:07:50 So an older man can't lay down the pipe?
00:07:55 Probably, of course.
00:08:02 Be very careful because--
00:08:04 I can't answer that question.
00:08:06 I mean, behind a woman's mind, she'll be thinking, "I wonder if he's using enhancements."
00:08:10 He wouldn't have that natural juice to--
00:08:14 Yeah, but so what if he's using enhancements?
00:08:16 All they're using all kind of enhancements.
00:08:18 [inaudible]
00:08:21 You're getting enhanced hair, enhanced eyelashes, enhanced lips, enhanced buttocks, enhanced breasts.
00:08:29 That's just like on the outside. The inside, boy.
00:08:33 You can't enhance that so now.
00:08:35 Once again, back to the terms that, okay, well, we could do this, but that's outside, as you just said.
00:08:42 But we now trying to provide inside is a problem.
00:08:47 And when I say "we," let's be very clear.
00:08:51 I know some feisty older men who they keep themselves fit and they could, as you say, lay pipe.
00:08:59 They could do that in their older, mature age.
00:09:02 They're still doing it. They're still feisty. They're still firing on all cylinders.
00:09:07 And I heard you--
00:09:08 Firing from older men.
00:09:10 Yeah, firing.
00:09:12 And they're good.
00:09:15 You all mentioned the case of the older woman who is financially stable and who would go with her young boy.
00:09:22 And I do think-- because remember the topic we started was whether that is Mr. Right or Mr. Right now.
00:09:30 I think for that woman, how sustainable is that relationship?
00:09:36 Because you're an older woman, you're financially secure.
00:09:39 You pick up a young boy who don't really have much going for him at this point in time.
00:09:43 And still earning.
00:09:44 And still earning.
00:09:46 At what point is that boy going to become a man and feel like the man of the house or the leader of the household, that sort of thing?
00:09:53 He really had to ask you for money or you take care of him, he want this, he want that.
00:09:59 Men are not really built like that.
00:10:02 A man is kind of-- in any animal kingdom, you will see-- any of the species in the animal kingdom, you will see the man is usually the leader of the pack.
00:10:12 The man is like the head of the household or the man is the hunter, gatherer kind of thing in most cases.
00:10:17 So when you see you have a woman taking care of the man like that, he would feel kind of less of a man.
00:10:25 Boy, the generation right now--
00:10:28 Listen to me.
00:10:30 These guys, these young guys, they want a woman to take care of them.
00:10:36 Facts.
00:10:37 This generation is not like the generations before.
00:10:40 We're not talking about a Mr. Mom here taking care of the kids at home.
00:10:43 You just want a man, sorry, you want a woman to take care of you.
00:10:47 That's what you're saying men are saying.
00:10:49 Yes, they're going to pay bills and things.
00:10:51 Simple things.
00:10:52 Now is that a loss?
00:10:53 So part of the thing that we said initially was are you a man or are you a boy?
00:10:59 So a man innately as part of our definition, I mean things are changing as they go along generation to generation,
00:11:06 but we're still holding on to certain fundamentals of a man.
00:11:09 And some of those fundamentals, as Rome pointed out, the security, the hunter, those are innate things that we come from our Neanderthal days of cavemen and we move to that.
00:11:22 So things have progressed, but it's not necessarily changed in terms of the fundamentals.
00:11:27 And if in that case we are looking at a man and a boy, then the definition in this case of a boy is someone who's not taking care of business or who wants to be simply lazy.
00:11:40 Overall, a loss, as I put it, who's now just looking for that way out, somebody to take care of me so I don't have to do anything.
00:11:47 And that's going to manifest in many other areas of his life.
00:11:51 What are we saying to that?
00:11:53 I honestly, I feel like to each their own. I feel like we have different types of people on this planet.
00:11:59 Some women like to work, some don't. They like to be taken care of.
00:12:03 Some men like to work and they want to be providers and some men may not and they might want to be taken care of and same vice versa.
00:12:09 It will have some women out here who want a man that they could take care of and just a guy that could probably provide them with emotional stability and security because they can handle themselves financially.
00:12:20 And same with men. Some men out here really just want to have a woman at home taking care of the kids and taking care of the house and to each their own.
00:12:28 Everybody has that person for them. So if that is what you want for your life, me, I like being independent.
00:12:37 I've always loved being independent. I am hyper independent.
00:12:41 I like having my own. I like in every area.
00:12:46 I like having my own. I like working. I like having things going on in my life.
00:12:51 I can't stay home. I'll get bored and I will die.
00:12:54 Not happening. And at the same time I still do have some of those fundamental areas where I think that I would cook and I would clean.
00:13:05 Not that I'm not expecting my boyfriend to do it, you know, but I would still make sure and I'll do it.
00:13:11 And the same way I would expect if we go on a date for him to pay for it. Don't kill me guys.
00:13:16 Same way I would expect if we go on a date for him to pay for it majority of the times unless I decide, well, okay, I'm going to carry him out.
00:13:24 But I still have some of those fundamental things in me.
00:13:26 So is equality basically on your terms?
00:13:30 Because women say they want equality in so many areas. Right.
00:13:36 When I say women, I'm not talking about all women, but generally you hear women when they talk about equality, they want equality of pay, they want equality of this, they want equality of that.
00:13:44 And I'm not opposed to it.
00:13:48 But when it comes down to other things, you hear, I just want somebody to take care of me.
00:13:52 I want a man to take care of me. Pick a struggle.
00:13:55 So if, but I just wanted to, again, that's a topic that, you know, we could definitely thrash out throughout manhood.
00:14:03 But I want to come down to the fact that when you see a man being taken care of, so for example, a very quick example.
00:14:11 I've always said I would like to be taken care of.
00:14:14 But when I say taken care of, to be able to do something in particular I might have really wanted to do, like to continue, say, furthering a pilot's license or National Geographic wing and studying bears and dolphins in the world, you know, going to the Antarctica.
00:14:30 So when you say take care, it's not like you don't want to work, but you're saying that right now you may have to work as the, you know, the many jobs that people take on that they're not necessarily happy in, but they're doing it because they have to pay bills and take care of families.
00:14:44 But if you had the choice to say.
00:14:47 Babes go on work, go on study.
00:14:49 Go on do whatever you, correct. I will handle this story while you're going off and doing that.
00:14:54 That's a bit different.
00:14:55 So I'm trying to find out when you say that, do you mean being a louse and just staying home and playing PlayStation or you're talking about to be able to further.
00:15:05 I just wanted to finish that before we go to the break.
00:15:07 It depends.
00:15:08 It depends on the couple.
00:15:09 So a man might just the same way a woman might stay home and be a see about the kids if they have kids or clean the house that have men out here that will do that as well.
00:15:18 That would be a house daddy, a house husband, and he would stay home and see about the kids, carry them to school, pick them up, do their homework.
00:15:26 That's a contribution.
00:15:27 That's a contribution.
00:15:28 What do you think?
00:15:29 What do you think that woman eventually will look at that?
00:15:31 No way.
00:15:32 I'm not going on.
00:15:33 I'm sorry.
00:15:34 It is a nice 20, 23 way of thinking and a Kumbaya way of thinking, but no, so man is to be man.
00:15:42 And I understand you're in a partnership and everybody pulling their weight.
00:15:47 But I think as a man, you are in it to be provider.
00:15:53 So you ought to be able to provide not only for yourself, but to provide for your family and be a protector in that scenario.
00:16:00 You can't have a woman taking care of you and have you in that kind of position and you want to go for a drink with the boys.
00:16:07 And you see what happens in those scenarios, right?
00:16:10 As much as it sounds like if he's pulling his weight and he's helping out, it will kind of have the man like more of a mouse than a man.
00:16:19 Yeah.
00:16:20 Because she's going to start to look at him as less of a man.
00:16:23 Yeah, you wouldn't look at a man as a man.
00:16:25 You carry a man out.
00:16:26 Let's say you are Miss Big Independent and you have your nice walk and whatever and you carry him out on a work function or something and you bring this man out and you introduce him as your husband or your man or something like that.
00:16:38 And somebody, your boss or somebody asks you, what do you do?
00:16:42 How do you feel this man going to feel?
00:16:44 I don't stay, a man take care of the chair.
00:16:46 I know the background, he buys us two beef and a callaloo.
00:16:49 He will feel out.
00:16:51 I mean, all right, you're already living your life to impress other people.
00:16:55 But it will affect a man's ego.
00:16:57 We all have egos.
00:16:58 Yes.
00:16:59 That is one part of the thing.
00:17:00 The next part of it is he wants to go out online.
00:17:03 He doesn't have a fixed salary because he's a stay at home man, right?
00:17:08 He wants to go out online.
00:17:09 You vex with him for something or they fall out within a week.
00:17:12 You as a woman now in control of this man.
00:17:15 Finances.
00:17:16 Finances.
00:17:17 And he vex money.
00:17:18 And whoever vex money should have had.
00:17:20 So he now has to ask you for money, babe.
00:17:23 I want 200 to just go and drink.
00:17:25 Now, you see you, you know how you get on this week.
00:17:27 Sit up.
00:17:28 You're going away.
00:17:29 You're going to stay home.
00:17:30 All that man going to feel like a man now.
00:17:31 Correct.
00:17:32 Yeah, yeah.
00:17:33 If he want to buy something, and that is the difficulty in those scenarios.
00:17:37 Now, there are people who make those things work, and kudos to them.
00:17:40 But I mean, generally as a man, I don't think any man will choose to put himself in a scenario like that.
00:17:46 Exactly.
00:17:47 So this is not a good place to stop, but it's a place we have to stop just to go to a quick break,
00:17:53 have that conversation.
00:17:54 Roma, I want you to come back with that.
00:17:56 Because we could talk about things like being a first man.
00:17:58 What is it?
00:17:59 Like first.
00:18:00 Like first lady.
00:18:01 Like the first lady.
00:18:02 We are first man, but you find that they still work.
00:18:04 They still do something.
00:18:05 Yeah, yeah.
00:18:06 We have, you know, for example, the president's husband, right?
00:18:10 He's a lawyer.
00:18:11 So therefore, there are people that still have a profession.
00:18:14 But when we come back from the break, we'll discuss that and so, so, so much more.
00:18:19 All right, so welcome back to Manhood.
00:18:32 And today's topic we will discuss is it Mr. Right or Mr. Right Now, or is this woman ready for you?
00:18:38 We segwayed a bit into the independence of women and how that fares for men and their manhood.
00:18:46 And I know a lot of men will talk about independent women.
00:18:50 And I know men personally who hate to hear that phrase, an independent woman.
00:18:55 And here's why a lot of them have mentioned this, is that when you see a woman says she's independent,
00:19:02 and we're not just talking about financially here.
00:19:05 We all will say we'd love to have a woman who's out there in the working world and doing her own thing, and that's great.
00:19:10 But when you see I have some of these strong-headed women who are like,
00:19:14 I am independent, and I am a man, I don't need no man for nothing, that kind of thing.
00:19:20 It makes a man feel as though he's not needed.
00:19:23 So a lot of men will prefer to have an interdependent relationship versus an independent woman.
00:19:30 Because if a woman comes with the mindset of, well, I'm independent, and I don't need no man to do nothing for me,
00:19:36 I can handle my stories for myself.
00:19:39 A man is a creature we want to feel wanted and needed.
00:19:45 So we want to feel as though, all right, you're dependent on me, and I'm dependent on you, in order for this thing to work.
00:19:52 Because if you ask people of past relationships, of years gone by, who married for how much of a years,
00:19:59 a lot of the time you will hear them say, sometimes, and it's not the ideal scenario,
00:20:04 but sometimes a woman will take foolishness in the relationship because she was dependent on the man.
00:20:10 So now when you're seeing a lot of relationships not working, a lot of the time what is happening is,
00:20:16 the woman now are financially independent of the man.
00:20:20 So they don't need to depend on the man for anything.
00:20:23 So any foolishness that happens in the relationship, the woman now can just pick up and say,
00:20:27 well, I go on, I'm not taking this from no man, I don't need this man.
00:20:31 Relationships of the past, the woman could not have done that, because she's dependent on this man,
00:20:37 so she might stay and take the foolishness for longer, but eventually, after years and years, it will go,
00:20:43 and the family will remain a unit.
00:20:45 But now with everybody wanting to be independent, independent, the slightest problem,
00:20:50 now, go get me wrong, I'm not condoning any foolishness in a relationship on either side,
00:20:56 but what I'm saying is that when everybody comes into the relationship saying,
00:21:00 I don't need you and you don't need me, and we are separate entities,
00:21:04 now the slightest issue you get in your relationship or in your marriage, you want to bust it,
00:21:09 because I don't need that person, while a lot of people think it shouldn't be that way,
00:21:14 it should be I need you and you need me, and we are now together as one unit, as a team,
00:21:19 and we work it out together now.
00:21:21 So I feel as though we miss that, we lack that interdependency in relationships.
00:21:26 And then there's the respect.
00:21:28 I mean, we had this discussion a couple times where people think, you know,
00:21:31 it's two halves coming together as a whole, right?
00:21:34 I look at it differently. It should be two wholes coming together.
00:21:37 So two independent bodies coming together to add value, but in that adding of value,
00:21:42 when those two independent bodies come in together, you have to know what you're coming together for,
00:21:46 and there must be that level of respect.
00:21:48 And if that level of respect could be eroded very simply by --
00:21:52 and I'm using the word simply in terms of stepping out or anything that comes up that you can go,
00:21:59 oh, you know, he's not taking care of me again, or he's not doing certain things like, you know,
00:22:05 massaging me or anything that's very trivial, people tend to take the out very easily,
00:22:09 just like we have the cancel culture.
00:22:11 And I'm saying that you have to address that within.
00:22:15 So, you know, for example, if a woman's earning more than a man,
00:22:18 so the man is not dependent on the woman, neither is the woman dependent on the man.
00:22:23 She's just simply earning more, which means -- and she then has a certain bravado about herself
00:22:27 to seem that I'm doing better than you.
00:22:30 I am more, in many ways, in the context of what we're speaking about,
00:22:35 I am more man than you, you know, in terms of how we may put certain things across,
00:22:40 which means that the fundamentals of why you're together is flawed.
00:22:45 And we were speaking before the break, and we used the word compromise and submissive,
00:22:53 which are words that the millennials and Gen Zs that we have found are very opposed to,
00:23:01 but yet still it was pleasantly surprised to hear from the two ladies that we have on this panel
00:23:07 who are saying that --
00:23:10 Nothing is wrong with being submissive or compromise.
00:23:14 Women want -- I can't speak for Gen Z, because that's a whole new generation.
00:23:18 They have their own mindset.
00:23:20 I'm a millennial.
00:23:21 Yeah, I'm a millennial.
00:23:22 Okay, okay.
00:23:23 But women generally want to be submissive.
00:23:25 It's not that we don't want to be submissive, it's just very hard to find someone
00:23:29 that you can actually allow yourself to be submissive for.
00:23:33 And it's not just about finances, because women go with men every single day
00:23:39 who can't do nothing for them, who are not financially well off, who can't do anything.
00:23:44 They have kids with men who can't buy pampers and milk and all of that.
00:23:47 So what's your ground for submission, then?
00:23:49 For me personally, it's about a man making me feel emotionally secure, mentally secure,
00:23:55 making me feel like I can count on them.
00:23:57 And it's not just about being -- it's not just about finances.
00:24:01 Because I've been with men before who I've made more money than.
00:24:06 It's not that they can't take -- but they could have taken care of themselves,
00:24:08 and they could have still helped, but I've made more money than.
00:24:11 But that didn't make me feel like I was better than them, or I had one up,
00:24:15 or they were less of a man than me.
00:24:17 It's just that at that point in time in my life, I was in a better space than they were.
00:24:21 And that was fine, but they still made me feel secure,
00:24:24 and that's what made me feel like I could be submissive to them.
00:24:27 I didn't have to worry about them with somebody else, or consistently feeling insecure,
00:24:32 or going through their phone, and all kinds -- like none of that.
00:24:35 So you're in a relationship.
00:24:37 The house is yours, right?
00:24:39 You bought the house.
00:24:40 The car is yours.
00:24:42 Everything you paid the bills -- you bought everything.
00:24:45 And the man comes along and says, "Nah, I'm having a big party here today,"
00:24:50 or, "I'm doing this. I want a man cave."
00:24:53 And at that point you're turning around and saying, "That's okay.
00:24:57 You're okay to be submissive or compromise with regards to that."
00:25:01 Or is there some part of you that's going to say, "I buy this. I pay the bills here."
00:25:07 Yes, it would be that way.
00:25:08 That's why it's very important that you all have your own home together.
00:25:12 So there are conditions.
00:25:14 It's very important that you have your own home together.
00:25:16 I mean, it's the same for me.
00:25:17 My mom always taught me to have my own house.
00:25:19 Have my own house, have my own car, have my own.
00:25:22 It's just embedded in me.
00:25:23 She taught me that from kid go all the way up to have my own stuff.
00:25:27 But then you're not being submissive.
00:25:29 How is that not being submissive?
00:25:31 Submissive by many in terms of in a negative way that it's put forth.
00:25:35 So compromise by the English -- in the dictionary, compromise is simply to compromise.
00:25:40 It's two persons coming together and one deciding,
00:25:43 "Okay, well, in order for us to reach an objective,
00:25:47 we are saying that one person has to give, one person might have to pull back."
00:25:51 So you're compromising.
00:25:52 And in certain words, people -- or you co-promise, right?
00:25:56 So some people think to themselves -- and I've actually had these conversations where they go,
00:26:02 "Oh, no, the woman nowadays is not compromising because that would be to give in.
00:26:07 That would be to be submissive."
00:26:09 And they go on to terms in the Bible where they say women should be submissive and walk behind.
00:26:13 We're not talking about that.
00:26:15 We're simply --
00:26:16 That's extreme.
00:26:17 It's extreme.
00:26:18 Exactly.
00:26:19 That's very extreme.
00:26:20 But Robert, you have a point.
00:26:22 And a lot of women now want to know there's a movement of women wanting independence
00:26:27 and to have an equal voice as a man, right?
00:26:30 And as I said, we're all for women having their independence and all of that.
00:26:33 But I feel in a relationship, you have to -- for me, right, and this is my personal opinion,
00:26:40 is that the man would be the leader of the household.
00:26:44 The man is the leader and he's the dominant one.
00:26:48 Again, I'm going back to the animal species.
00:26:50 That's who we are.
00:26:51 That's who we are innately.
00:26:52 That's what we know.
00:26:53 We want to lead our household.
00:26:55 And as much as you would have a woman as part of that and to help make decisions,
00:27:00 and not to say the man is not going to listen, but I still feel as though too many cooks will spoil the pot.
00:27:07 So you need to have one person at the end of the day who can make the final decision to lead this.
00:27:12 And you as a woman, if you trust your man, will know that this man is going to make a decision to lead our household
00:27:20 and for the betterment of yourself, the woman, and for your children.
00:27:24 Because if you watch a lion leading a pack, he's going to make sure he's taking care of the whole family,
00:27:29 not leaving anybody behind.
00:27:31 So I feel as though you had to have -- if you're picking a mate, ladies selecting a man,
00:27:36 you had to select a man who you could give your trust to that, listen, I know I trust this man.
00:27:41 I put my faith in this man, that whatever decision he goes out there to do is not only for himself,
00:27:46 but for himself and the entire family.
00:27:48 And already, not to say you're not questioning him, because you're questioning his decision,
00:27:52 not to say he wouldn't listen to you either, but I feel as though if you have the man as the head of the household
00:27:58 and is the leader of the pack, is that you had to have faith and trust him in that.
00:28:01 Because you use the word submissive, and just the act of sex itself is an act where somebody had to be submissive.
00:28:10 And in the traditional form of sexual activity that we would know as men is that the man would be the dominant one in that act itself,
00:28:20 where the woman would be the submissive one to the man.
00:28:23 Okay, yeah, you would have the rare occasion where the woman would throw the man on the bed and take over, right?
00:28:28 Which men like to every now and again.
00:28:30 But generally, the act is a submissive act where the woman would be submissive to the man to allow this act to take place.
00:28:38 And you would find that a lot of women would like that, and they have some women who don't like that,
00:28:43 in terms of they don't mind it when it comes to sexual activity.
00:28:46 But when it comes to the average household, you don't want the man to take control or the man to be in charge.
00:28:52 So it's not a matter of...
00:28:53 Donia, I agree with that, you know. Donia, you're feeling the tension.
00:28:58 Right as you're piercing that word.
00:29:02 Honestly, I feel like that's a very old way of thinking.
00:29:06 And to me, times have changed.
00:29:10 Do you throw any man down on the ground?
00:29:12 No, we are not throwing any man down on the ground.
00:29:14 I just feel like we are equal parties in our home.
00:29:18 So I am not leaving no decisions for the man to make by himself.
00:29:23 It's not happening. We discuss everything. We talk about anything.
00:29:26 I will trust my husband.
00:29:29 So if I feel like I don't understand something, and he may have a better intellectual...
00:29:34 He might understand it better, I will trust him to make the decision.
00:29:37 And I think vice versa, if I understand something better, he should trust me to make the decision as well.
00:29:42 But how do you determine that you understand it better?
00:29:44 I don't know. In that situation, you would obviously choose someone,
00:29:48 and you will literally know everything about this person.
00:29:51 This person will know everything about you. You all will go through life together.
00:29:53 You all will go through trials, tribulations, up, downs.
00:29:56 You will see where your faults are, where his faults are.
00:29:59 You all will have an understanding at that point in time if you all are married.
00:30:02 So I feel like there should just be that type of understanding.
00:30:05 We are equal parties.
00:30:08 So he makes a bad decision and sends us down the wrong road?
00:30:11 No, but you don't trust your partner.
00:30:14 You would trust him to make the right decision.
00:30:17 Yeah, but we are humans.
00:30:20 And there is a difference between if your partner comes and talks to you about it,
00:30:23 and you say, "Okay, babe, I trust you. You made the decision."
00:30:26 But if men just feel like they can go and make decisions on themselves,
00:30:29 it kind of feels like you made a decision that affects both of us,
00:30:33 and maybe if we have kids without even consulting me or seeing how I feel about something,
00:30:38 maybe I could have given you a different perspective, and you might have seen it differently.
00:30:42 Right, but I get that.
00:30:45 The consultation and the communication is important.
00:30:48 But I still believe you all are going to come at loggerheads at some point in time.
00:30:52 In the videos, we have differences of opinion.
00:30:55 But, Rumi, I just want to understand where the both of you are coming from before we go further.
00:31:00 Is it then that we're looking at it from a perspective of if it is that the man is--
00:31:08 let's just use an example. The woman is a housewife.
00:31:12 So the man is the one that's earning the money.
00:31:15 Is it that a woman at that point is probably more open to, if he's making all the decisions,
00:31:20 that she feels less--
00:31:25 she cannot--she's not allowed at that point.
00:31:30 There might be a part of her that's not allowed to make certain calls
00:31:35 because he is the one that's doing all the providing.
00:31:38 Whereas if the woman was--see, in this same scenario, the woman now is making--
00:31:44 she has her own money.
00:31:46 She's now coming from a different position to say, "Well, hey, when you make a decision,
00:31:49 you ought to consult me because I don't need you financially.
00:31:54 So I have more power in this circumstance, and you have to speak to me
00:31:58 about what decisions we're making."
00:32:01 I don't think it's a perspective where she would say, "I don't need you
00:32:05 because I am financially capable of taking care of myself."
00:32:09 But it's more like, "I am also working hard.
00:32:12 I am also financially intertwined in this."
00:32:15 It's not just you. You're not the only person going out every day
00:32:18 We are both basically doing the same thing and providing the same amount,
00:32:22 or maybe me more, maybe you a little bit more.
00:32:25 So it just seems important that you would also include me in the decisions.
00:32:29 Whereas if I was just at home taking care of kids and you out there working 24/7,
00:32:33 bringing home the money, then okay, fine.
00:32:36 Usually in those traditional situations, men will make the decision.
00:32:39 But this is my hard-earned money. This is what I go out there and make.
00:32:44 It's not that I don't need you to take care of me.
00:32:47 It's just that this is my hard-earned money.
00:32:50 This is not your money. So whose money is it?
00:32:53 It is our money. If we're together.
00:32:56 Even if you want to take it from that perspective, it is our money.
00:32:59 Which means we both have to be consulted and we both have to make decisions.
00:33:04 Not you by yourself because it's not just your money.
00:33:07 It's our money.
00:33:10 You want that at the point that you are now saying that you are making a contribution.
00:33:15 I know you want the equal say in what happens.
00:33:18 But if you don't, case in point, I had a cousin.
00:33:21 And she was very, I would say for the most part, submissive with regards to decisions
00:33:26 that were being made with regards to family and land, et cetera.
00:33:29 And the moment she got a position of influence and power,
00:33:34 all of a sudden she had a voice, more of a voice on the table.
00:33:39 It was a demanding voice to say, "Hey, I don't want to take all this shit again."
00:33:44 But all the time, you're quiet.
00:33:46 But the moment you realize, "I don't need this scenario again.
00:33:49 I am now saying what I need to say." And you see it all the time, even in a job.
00:33:53 Somebody gets another job off, they could say, "Hey, I need this, this and that."
00:33:57 And here's where this whole problem stems and it comes from.
00:34:01 I think a lot of people getting into relationships thinking they're going in as individuals.
00:34:08 And the problem for me is that you all are not thinking, and again it goes back to
00:34:14 if this is the right person for you or if this is not the right person for you.
00:34:17 It's because if you all have things in common, you all share common goals,
00:34:22 and you all come together and you all say, "Okay, we are going to be in a relationship together.
00:34:27 So from now on, I am no longer Romain Dénier. This is a team that is moving forward."
00:34:32 We would have a discussion about what are our goals for our team for the future.
00:34:38 It would probably include maybe a family and children and whatever.
00:34:42 And we would decide together where we want our vision going forward for the next how much ever years.
00:34:48 And if we know this is our plan for the vision for the future,
00:34:51 then my money and your money and all of that will change.
00:34:54 Because now you would have separate accounts.
00:34:57 You would have Dénier's money, Romain will have his money.
00:35:00 And then you have a family joint account where, "Okay, this is for our goals heading to the future."
00:35:07 So then you have to have somebody making that decision with that joint money,
00:35:11 if it's a money thing that we're talking about here, for the vision for the goal.
00:35:15 You wouldn't expect the man, if both of you agree, there's a vision we're heading to.
00:35:19 You wouldn't expect him to take that money to go and drink rum with it or to buy beers with it or whatever.
00:35:24 Because in your mind, you trust him, he's your partner and he's your team.
00:35:28 Unless you allocate a portion of your money to say, "Hey, this is entertainment."
00:35:31 No, that's why you want to have your separate accounts.
00:35:33 So every month, you're putting money towards the family account,
00:35:36 she's putting money towards the family account and you're using that.
00:35:39 But separately, you have your own bank accounts where she has her independence,
00:35:42 if she wants to go out with the girls or she wants to buy a handbag or whatever,
00:35:45 she wants to do nails here, whatever.
00:35:47 The man wants to buy his shoes or barber, he's taking care of himself.
00:35:51 But you have team money that you're going to deal with moving forward.
00:35:54 And I feel like even in cases like that, if people plan out their objectives and their goal as a team moving forward,
00:36:01 no longer you'll be making statements where it is me, I want to do this and you doing that.
00:36:06 I must have a say and he not taking me on.
00:36:08 Because you will know that what we're doing is for the betterment of both of us
00:36:13 and for the kids and everybody to come together moving forward.
00:36:17 So I want us to go to a break.
00:36:20 And I want you to respond when we come back from the break.
00:36:23 Because I know you both of you have a response.
00:36:27 It would be a good show if you did.
00:36:31 But just to say that before we go to the break, I want to listen to Steve Harvey to say
00:36:35 every relationship should have four accounts.
00:36:37 As you intimated, an account for yourself that allows you to have that independence,
00:36:43 that feeling when independence, an account to pay the bills so that nobody feels the pressure
00:36:47 that you understand that there's an assignment of bills that's accounted for.
00:36:52 And then it's a joint account for savings and for vacations or different things that should happen.
00:36:57 So I think that's a good reminder of things.
00:37:01 Because money is normally the root of most evils.
00:37:05 So we take a short break.
00:37:07 When we come back again, we speak more in the context of Mr. Right or Mr. Wrong
00:37:12 or Mr. Right Now, Mrs. Right Now, Mrs. Wrong.
00:37:16 [Music]
00:37:20 All right, and we are back.
00:37:29 This is Manhood and today women have a voice.
00:37:33 We've been giving it to them.
00:37:35 Before we went on to the break, we were speaking about individuality, compromise, submissive.
00:37:41 And now we want to get into a bit of accountability.
00:37:45 Accountability. Very well said.
00:37:48 And it's a pleasure to have the other side of the story, the other gender, the two, male and female.
00:37:57 It's important to hear your perspective.
00:38:00 But also using that word is very apt, accountability, accountability for men and their behavior.
00:38:06 As some women say, men and their sh*t.
00:38:10 And women also taking accountability for how they show up and how they may cause certain triggers for men.
00:38:17 So one of the things that I would like to start off with regards to that is,
00:38:21 do women think that men are clairvoyant?
00:38:24 Because what happens is in a lot of relationships, women somehow expect a man to know what's going on in their head.
00:38:33 Know what they want, know why they're passive aggressive.
00:38:36 And what that does with women, resentment builds up because you have that expectation of a man.
00:38:43 And the man is simply saying, "Well, if you do like that, just say so."
00:38:47 I agree and disagree at the same time.
00:38:49 Please.
00:38:50 I agree, yes, women could be sickening. I know myself.
00:38:54 I disagree because, okay, let me say we're one year in.
00:38:59 You know what I like, you know what I don't like at that time.
00:39:02 All of a sudden you ship it, you don't know.
00:39:06 You don't know that I don't like when you wear certain perfume.
00:39:09 Stop buying the perfume, buy something else.
00:39:12 You know that I don't like you to hit my heart on the bum, see when I pass it.
00:39:17 Stop hitting my heart, give me a little squeeze.
00:39:20 You know what I mean? Look for an alternative to please the other.
00:39:23 But women don't like that?
00:39:24 Women don't.
00:39:25 Well, well.
00:39:26 Because you see it so often.
00:39:27 Well, this is an example.
00:39:30 But yeah, yeah, that's what I feel comes in.
00:39:37 It's not that we expect you all to be, that we think you all are mind readers.
00:39:41 You understand?
00:39:42 It's just, well, it's a bit stupid sometimes.
00:39:45 They do.
00:39:46 As Denia said earlier.
00:39:48 Men like to play.
00:39:51 You would tell a man the same thing ten times and they will still come back and do it.
00:39:58 Still come and then be like, well, I didn't know you should.
00:40:02 Boy.
00:40:04 It's not that we expect you all to be, two things.
00:40:07 Men don't listen.
00:40:09 It's like you all have two things in your ears all the time.
00:40:12 So you all don't hear a word when we speak.
00:40:14 You all just zone us out and you all just be like, she's going, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan, nyan.
00:40:18 Men don't listen.
00:40:20 Because if Oli used to listen, then Oli would have known.
00:40:23 You could tell Oli something ten times and he would still do it.
00:40:26 Yes.
00:40:27 He'll do it.
00:40:28 And I would draw an example real, real quick.
00:40:31 I was in a relationship and he had a friend, a female friend.
00:40:36 And she used to like literally place jealousy for me.
00:40:41 Because I, initially when I saw her, I was like, yo, I'm going to take your friend from you.
00:40:45 I find she cool.
00:40:46 We have the same likes, dislikes, whatever, whatever.
00:40:49 And I recognized like she's doing little things to make me feel jealous.
00:40:54 Like touching him in a certain way, bawling out, I love you.
00:40:58 And I like the ****.
00:41:00 So I told him about ****.
00:41:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:03 Women and men **** with you.
00:41:05 Yes.
00:41:06 So I'm telling him about it.
00:41:07 I say I don't like how she does be tinging, tinging, tinging.
00:41:09 You know, I have nothing against a girl.
00:41:11 I have nothing against you having female friends.
00:41:13 But the respect has to be there.
00:41:17 Because none of my male friends has come to you, come by me, in front of your face and disrespect you.
00:41:23 So why you can't explain that to your friend?
00:41:27 Every time she comes, she comes, she's doing the same ****.
00:41:32 And he is just oblivious.
00:41:34 He's not seeing that.
00:41:36 He's like, oh gosh, why you even so?
00:41:40 So all that is why I say certain men, I wouldn't say all men because, you know, certain men are stupid.
00:41:48 Because they think that you will just forget about it and they will get what they want at the end, which is to not change.
00:41:55 But in a case like that, right, I know some men who went through situations like that.
00:42:00 And I heard their defense.
00:42:03 And their defense was that they know they nothing, nothing with the girl.
00:42:07 So they're already taking the girl on.
00:42:09 She could do whatever.
00:42:11 They're not really on the girl.
00:42:13 So in their mind, they're not on the girl.
00:42:16 That is their friend.
00:42:18 They are nothing with that.
00:42:20 They are not attracted to that girl in that way.
00:42:22 She's just there.
00:42:24 But I feel like if women sometimes, sometimes women are a bit more aggressive in those scenarios.
00:42:30 So a man might play it off and just be like, girl, you're playing it wrong.
00:42:36 Yes, you're joking or whatever.
00:42:38 A woman sometimes, Robert, I've heard women say this.
00:42:41 I heard the same partner of mine who went through that scenario where the girl said, no, I want you to tell her don't do that.
00:42:47 And kind of in a rough manner.
00:42:50 And she wanted to put her hand and say, don't touch me like that or whatever.
00:42:54 A man generally wouldn't be so aggressive toward a woman.
00:42:59 He would kind of pass it off as whatever she play, you know, but a woman sometimes want a man to put a woman in her place.
00:43:07 Yes.
00:43:08 And say.
00:43:09 That is not me.
00:43:10 Exactly.
00:43:11 Yes.
00:43:12 I want to I want to bring something back to context because that's a conversation we could go off on a whole other 10, 15 minutes to near you probably half hour on.
00:43:22 Right.
00:43:23 We talking.
00:43:24 I'm saying, OK, if I'm if you're saying men don't listen and you've said it 10 or 12 times, wouldn't in the definition of insanity do the same thing over and over and expect a different result?
00:43:34 So the man himself is not consciously.
00:43:37 I don't think constantly doing something to annoy you.
00:43:40 So if you have a pet, let's put it down to a pet peeve.
00:43:43 Let's just look at it for case in point in this discussion.
00:43:50 The man leaves his socks on the floor every time he comes home from football or basketball, whatever, leaves his socks on the floor.
00:43:56 You told him multiple times, according to 10, 12 times you've told him and he's not listening.
00:44:02 Don't you then tell yourself that, hey, let me let me not be so agitated by it.
00:44:07 What's the bigger picture here? Is it really that big of a deal for me to pick up the socks or leave it there?
00:44:13 You know, for the sake of as you start off the show saying peace.
00:44:17 And so sometimes you have to ask yourself if if you are in this case, as I said, passive aggressive or be men women expecting men to be clairvoyant.
00:44:27 If if in this case you have communicated it several times and it's still not changing, then maybe you make the change.
00:44:35 If it's if it's not something if it's something like in this case where it's women, you're feeling insecure or you're feeling being disrespected, then that's something different.
00:44:44 Take it to the next level. But I'm saying in a case of where things are sometimes when you when you looked at bigger picture, trivial, trivial.
00:44:54 Correct. And you're going on about making it a mountain of a molehill that then may get to certain things.
00:45:00 By the time you get to the point, you're feeling some resentment.
00:45:04 Yes, you're building up this resentment. You're looking at him a certain way and then you open yourself up for that proverbial show.
00:45:10 Let's a crown because somebody else come along who ain't doing those things.
00:45:14 All of a sudden opens up the he kind of cool, you know, and men know that men ought to touch, touch those points.
00:45:21 But again, whole other show. I wanted to ask Rome and we spoke about this in our chats.
00:45:28 Women, you have an argument, right? A man comes along and he says, babes, you know, thinking a time, time is of the essence.
00:45:38 You know, this this was something trivial. And he can we say, babes, you know, sorry.
00:45:43 And in your mind, you're looking, you know, you're drinking your head, whatever the case may be, but you want to action.
00:45:49 And you decide a woman on the other hand, come into a man.
00:45:54 Let me put into context, a woman coming to a man after an argument, babes, I was something.
00:45:59 Man, he forget about that. And he taking, taking whatever he could get to that particular point.
00:46:04 On the other hand, that woman, Jamie, Denia, how are you reacting?
00:46:10 Don't touch me. Don't touch. If I'm angry, if I am angry, do not touch me. There's no way I might kick it on.
00:46:20 Like I might say, no, give me my space. Let me calm down. Let me breathe. Let me go to the process.
00:46:27 The process in my head. Maybe you could come and apologize because probably you were wrong.
00:46:33 Most likely I different come and apologize. Let you know, make up. I never mean make up.
00:46:40 We can go ahead because men are men are men are always wrong. No, no, no, no, no.
00:46:44 No, it's according to what you do. It depends. Why would I be so angry if I'm wrong?
00:46:48 If I'm clearly angry about something, it's because you did something that would have hurt me or that I didn't like.
00:46:54 Right. Not because I wouldn't be angry if I did something wrong, then I would have been coming to you to be like, baby, you know, but if I am angry,
00:47:02 I'm going to be angry. But but no, I'm apologizing. But for the time you say, but you discredit.
00:47:09 No, if I'm if I'm anytime that I am wrong, I apologize. If I felt some type way about a situation as well, I might say I felt this way.
00:47:18 You realize what you said that very three years went like this. Immediately.
00:47:23 I that that does the truth. I have any time I'm wrong. I apologize. I hear you. It's not that I'm perfect.
00:47:30 Listen, my person from day one, from day the jump, the jump and this is very rare.
00:47:37 You don't get these type of things made a big issue on communication from jump.
00:47:42 It was always kind of used to be a very open, communicative person.
00:47:46 Like I wouldn't say how I feel. I wouldn't talk about those things.
00:47:49 Like I was always one to bury, let go and move on. But from the jump since we started dating, it was always about communication, communication, communication.
00:47:56 And he's always been very open with me. So it also allowed me to feel like I could be very open with him and really, truly say was on my mind at all times and give truth and give honesty.
00:48:08 And it's the same vice versa. So we have that. So if I do something wrong, I don't have no ego.
00:48:14 I don't feel no type of way to go and say, babe, I'm sorry. Like I really didn't mean to make you feel that type of way.
00:48:19 Whatever the case may be. And it's the same vice versa. If he does something wrong, he has no ego and no problem with coming to apologize to me or understanding where he went wrong.
00:48:28 Would you apologize even if you felt in conviction that you were right? But the bigger picture is it becomes.
00:48:37 Well, some arguments is not some arguments aren't really about who's wrong or who's right.
00:48:43 Sometimes you both get hurt or sometimes you both may have a point like I may have done this and it hurts you, but I did this because I felt this type of way when you did it.
00:48:52 And at those times you come and you both apologize because you really didn't mean to hurt each other. It just ended up that way.
00:48:58 So you understand that you are not the problem. He is not the problem. The problem is the problem.
00:49:03 The problem. Exactly. And you just address the problem. We address the problem and we move forward from there.
00:49:08 And we try not to let that happen again. Or if it does, we know how to tackle it instead of being angry at each other.
00:49:14 Jimmy, I want to hear somebody comes and apologizes to you and says, hey, I read and truly motive might be a while or something.
00:49:21 Or you both, you know, out of just. OK, so it's according to what you what you do.
00:49:29 If it is like one and I'm coming back, I look back on that. That's coming on my phone.
00:49:38 We are coming around my phone. But if it's something trivial, you know, I mean, I want you to.
00:49:46 That's just just me. I want you to come home. I'm a little girl. I mean, the rough up a little, you know.
00:49:59 Yeah. Like trying to like filter it. I don't want to. Daddy, don't watch this.
00:50:09 But I, I, I like physical. Dominance. Yes. When I vex, I want you to do that with me.
00:50:19 I want you to come and show me the love. Because to me, when you when you like distance yourself from me after we have an argument,
00:50:29 however, I think in, oh, gosh, this this person won't leave me in this person going on, give up on me. But if we you are your most like angry,
00:50:40 you're the most angry of states. I would. And you come and drop everything and just come to me.
00:50:46 I'm like, baby girl. I like. We say sorry after. You know, I mean, and I said, because I hate to be angry, I hate to quarrel.
00:50:59 And if I have to quarrel, that means something wrong with you. But I just feel like sometimes when couples do that,
00:51:07 they tend not to talk about a problem. Like if you're you guys have an issue and you all do that, like he comes and he just you all have sex and you all just get good after that.
00:51:18 Talk to me. Lots of the times couples tend not to talk about the actual problem.
00:51:25 And then that goes on. I'm talking about it. I'm talking about I'm talking about and then boom.
00:51:31 Now, a lot of times in relationships, we use sex as something just to pacify a situation.
00:51:38 You kind of get to the point is like, hey, you know, Rome, no, watch me. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:51:43 No, no, no. Sometimes you sometimes you sometimes you even forget what what started the topic of what's because it's trivial and you really do.
00:51:54 Things add up. No, but what you really want is to just tell yourself, listen, I really I really do have time.
00:52:00 By time that argument, you might be coming home. You might have a little buzz and feel a little vibe.
00:52:05 Something happens. I don't I don't really want to lose this because now now how I feel it might be my best.
00:52:10 I was performed best anyway. Generally, you know, men know the times of of peak performance.
00:52:16 Yeah. And you just want to move on from it. Yeah. And then by time you. But if if you woman does open up literally and figuratively and something happens,
00:52:27 then you tend to afterwards realize how trivial it is or just move on.
00:52:33 No. Is that then suppressing? What might be a bigger problem going forward, because women sometimes I could speak for me.
00:52:41 I don't hold on to what when that's done, it's done. But I'm asking the women then hold on like a snowball effect.
00:52:48 They still have a peace feeling that, well, this has been unresolved or it comes again and then it becomes bigger, bigger, bigger.
00:52:54 I can't talk for all women. I can talk for myself because I've had so much experience with deaths and and losing people.
00:53:04 And I'm aware of the mortality that I am. I find if it's trivial, like, you know, I mean, like, come on, you could do you could do even one.
00:53:17 No, it's not trivial. Yeah. No, no, no.
00:53:21 But when you create a scheme of things. And that is unforgivable. In a greater scheme of things.
00:53:27 I can see that you all are not a forgiving species when it comes to that. Nope, nope.
00:53:31 Yeah, no, no, no. That's the whole thing. Men ain't forgiving species when it comes to that because you can't handle what you all just dish out.
00:53:36 And that is unforgivable in my books. If you're a whore and you get kicked out the door.
00:53:41 We're going to extend this one. We're going to extend this one and talk about it. But, Jimmy, you know, I really want to thank you for your honesty.
00:53:53 And I want to hear from our behavior change consultant. Of course. I want to hear some of the science behind a lot of what we're talking about here today.
00:54:01 So based on the discussions that we've had so far, you know, give us give us your your your your takeaway thoughts as to how we could progress some nuggets to the public.
00:54:12 As how we can progress in terms of relationships, I believe that we should go back to the old school ways.
00:54:19 The R&B love, you know, that kind of. Were you laughing at me, boy? No, the R&B love.
00:54:26 That that R&B love was also very toxic. Girl, toxicity is lovely.
00:54:32 No, I'm joking. But that, you know, men caught in women, men, men actually putting in the work to get get me that life, that soulmate, that person that you can spend the rest of your life with and procreate.
00:54:48 And it's like putting in the work because it have so much people that have oops babies and oops babies going on, make more oops babies.
00:54:58 And is that constant? You know, I mean, so let's take our time and get to build back the foundation as to what a relationship should contain and better families, you know,
00:55:11 like a society for society that needs to be corrected. And then I think I believe everything else could flourish.
00:55:21 So, Jamie, once again, thank you. We've taken a short break, but, you know, for folks listening here, you know, if you want to hear and see more of Jamie,
00:55:29 we definitely will be bringing Jamie back for that conversation on manhood where we talk about sexual prowess.
00:55:35 You know, does size matter? Things like that. I know you're raring to talk about that.
00:55:42 So thank you once again, Jamie. We take a short break and Yohansi joins us to put some context to this.
00:56:03 All right, so I've been listening to the conversation and just like you have been listening, I have some thoughts.
00:56:10 Now, it's not about right or wrong. It's about exploring exactly the thoughts and the feelings of everyone involved.
00:56:16 So, Rome, you were saying before about a woman should allow a man to be a man.
00:56:23 And I've heard people and even me sometimes have a problem with the word allow because allow implies permission.
00:56:30 And I think that in relationship, it should be more of a dance because let's say a man of a role and a woman has a role.
00:56:37 I'm not saying universally, but in that relationship, they will decide what that role is.
00:56:41 So it's not you allowing her to be a woman or she allowing you to be a man, but you're doing this dance together.
00:56:49 Right. That's one. And then, Denia, you were saying that that we talk about independent women.
00:56:57 Now, in early years, I think I was a bit of an advocate for the independence because the theory was two independent people coming together.
00:57:09 But when I got married, I realized two people can't be independent anymore.
00:57:14 So if I was single, I could be independent. If my wife was single, she could be independent.
00:57:18 But when you come together, there's an interdependence that has to form.
00:57:24 That's a strong point Rome was making.
00:57:27 Right. That doesn't mean that we're doing things separately or we're not having our own lives, but now it is dependent on each other.
00:57:34 And then Rome, you were saying that in terms of who has the final say in the home.
00:57:39 Now, I've tested this theory already to see what works well and also observed clients and the man having the final say works best.
00:57:50 Now, I'm not saying that a man is always right, but the act of making a decision, because even if I want to go from a biological point of view,
00:57:59 because women have more connections between the right and the left side of their brain, that's why women can multitask better than us.
00:58:06 When it's time to make a decision, sometimes the information is too much.
00:58:11 So I don't know if you ever noticed this. Sometimes when a woman has to make too many decisions, she tends to get a bit flustered.
00:58:17 Not all women, I'm not saying you, you are all women, but what you want to eat.
00:58:23 I don't know why. I don't know what happens because at that moment, every single thing she wants, it comes into mind at the same time.
00:58:30 Now, of course, there's advances and disadvantages to having those more connections.
00:58:34 So then she asks, well, what you want or you tell me. So therefore, now the man makes the final decision.
00:58:40 Now, I'm not trivializing you, but if you look at it on an overarch, and I've seen that work.
00:58:45 So a lot of times I use my experience. My wife could see a little more than me in things.
00:58:50 So I would ask, wait, think about this. And she would present a lot more options than I perceive.
00:58:54 But at the end, I'm the person making the decision. Tell me your thoughts.
00:59:00 Well, that question of where you want to eat that, Buzi.
00:59:04 Well, boy, I think all new age men went through that at some point in our relationship, especially in the courting phase.
00:59:11 Anytime somebody asks me where I want to eat, I don't know where you want to eat.
00:59:15 And then too, I feel sometimes, and this is my experience in dating, is I feel sometimes a woman wants to be led.
00:59:22 In a case where even when it comes to something to eat or somewhere to go on a date, when I know courting a woman for the first time,
00:59:30 in my experience, what I've seen, a woman prefers if I call and say, hey, you available tomorrow night?
00:59:35 She says yes. And I say, OK, tomorrow we head in XYZ restaurant at this time.
00:59:41 And the woman I did that with, they like that, where a man takes control and he say, OK, we going out for 8 o'clock.
00:59:46 I come in and pick you up. When you reach, you already know what it is we're doing.
00:59:50 After that, he has a plan what we're going to do after we dance in or whatever.
00:59:54 And in my experience, I found as though the woman liked to be led versus a man asking a woman, so where you want to go tomorrow night?
01:00:03 And then she's like, oh, go pick somewhere. Where you want to eat? I mean, all right, well, you do something now.
01:00:09 Or where you think we should do next week? Or where you think we should go for this?
01:00:12 So it's a matter of a man knowing the woman he with. Knowing, because a man will know, if he get to know you over a period of time,
01:00:20 he will start to know what you're like and what you do like after a while.
01:00:25 So it will help him to make a more informed decision and a better decision for the team.
01:00:31 My mom keep talking team as we move forward.
01:00:34 So he wouldn't have to ask you every minute what you like or what you don't like or if you prefer this or what.
01:00:39 Because I would know. I would know that woman I was with before. I know she don't eat meat.
01:00:44 So I know if I look in the Pika restaurant, I look in the seafood restaurant for her or something, in the early phase, it will be different.
01:00:50 I might ask her what you don't like. So if you tell me, well, I don't eat fish because I have a little jayquai,
01:00:56 I have shellfish allergies or something, then it will help me to make a better decision.
01:01:00 But again, overall, for me, I feel from my experience in a lot of the cases that even though a lot of women say they want to be independent,
01:01:08 they sometimes prefer to be led by a man.
01:01:12 Yeah. But that goes back in the time when I was saying about women don't mind being submissive, like they don't mind being submissive.
01:01:19 But I feel like where the independence come in is just that we also like to have a security,
01:01:27 a peace of mind that we could also provide for ourselves if we have to.
01:01:31 Because in all fairness, men haven't always been the most reliable creatures on the planet.
01:01:37 In all fairness, you all have not been.
01:01:39 That's some going wrong ways, man.
01:01:40 It's not even just about, sometimes it's not even about the relationships you have with someone.
01:01:45 You're picking me so wrong.
01:01:46 No. You might be.
01:01:47 I said that a lot too, man. I'm going around and complaining.
01:01:49 That's not what it is. Psychologically, you might grow up and your mom and dad might have issues
01:01:56 and you might see your dad mistreating your mom or you might have an aunt who's getting mistreated
01:02:00 or your sister or your brother.
01:02:02 And those things stick with you as you grow.
01:02:04 And that's why my mom always stuck into me, independence and always having your own.
01:02:09 Because no matter what anybody had ever done to her, she could always have a home for her children.
01:02:14 Nobody could have taken that away from her.
01:02:16 So it's not always about me. I've been independent since I was young, since I was 16, before I even started dating.
01:02:23 I've been an independent person working and taking care of my own self and making my own money.
01:02:27 And it's not had nothing to do with the people that I was dating.
01:02:30 Anything like that.
01:02:31 It's just that women like to feel that, you know, if anything else happens, I can still take care of myself.
01:02:36 It's not that I have a problem with a guy leading or following a guy's lead.
01:02:40 It's just that I want to be able to work.
01:02:42 I want to be able to follow my dreams and my passions and make decisions for my life as well.
01:02:46 And I want you to also respect that.
01:02:48 The same way you would want to work and have dreams and follow your passions and not give them up for anybody.
01:02:55 Before you take a quick point on what Denia said there, and I fully agree with you in that a woman,
01:03:00 I like a woman who says she could handle herself and she could take care of herself.
01:03:05 The only issue I have with that is, as Yancey was saying, the interdependence part for me is because as mature a man as I am,
01:03:14 I need a woman because I am not the best version of myself by myself.
01:03:21 Because I feel as though to me, when I perform the best and when I'm the most successful in my life,
01:03:27 is when I have a strong woman by my side.
01:03:30 Because men are not a complete whole by themselves.
01:03:34 We work, that's why those of you who believe in religion and the biblical deeds,
01:03:39 when God gave Adam and Eve to work with, it's because it was a pair and we work better together.
01:03:46 Because as Yancey was saying, there are things that a woman sees that a man cannot see.
01:03:51 And I always believe in even in the work environment, that's why I always kind of push companies when I advise them to have a woman on their board
01:03:58 or to have a woman a part of the team.
01:04:00 Because you all think differently from us and we need you all to be able to expose us to that.
01:04:05 If you put five men in this room here, we will talk about all kinds of things.
01:04:09 And you bring one woman and she will see something that none of us have seen before.
01:04:13 Also, you all bring a sense of calm and a sense of emotion into our decision making.
01:04:20 Because men are a lot of the time very logical thinking creatures.
01:04:24 And we don't think about the emotional side of things or sometimes we might not have as much empathy as a woman may have in a scenario.
01:04:31 And that is where you all can come and soften us up a little bit to take things on a different level.
01:04:36 And call us out.
01:04:37 So for me, I would always say I need a woman as part of my life for me to be the best.
01:04:44 Now I can stand up on my own two feet and I'm doing well by myself whenever I'm single.
01:04:48 But I will never reach, in my opinion, my fullest potential if you do have that partner with it and you work as a team.
01:04:56 That's my final thoughts on that.
01:04:58 I totally embrace and agree with everything you said, Roman.
01:05:04 I mean, that's some awesome closing thoughts.
01:05:07 I mean, I'd still like to hear your full analogy or assessment of what we've been talking about here today.
01:05:13 But you touched on something about possibly influences by parents, societal influences.
01:05:20 And I recall a relationship where the person I was seeing was very heavily influenced by her parents.
01:05:31 And what they may have known about what would have been seen as that macho bravado or old school way of growing up where you had certain expectations of a woman.
01:05:43 So the moment I would, I might cook every day or bring food home.
01:05:47 And one of my pet peeves will always be, I'm not asking you to cook every day.
01:05:51 I just ask you to let me know if there isn't food, I would bring it home or I'd be prepared to come home and cook something.
01:05:59 But when you reach home and they go, "Hey, nothing there."
01:06:02 Yeah, but I will stay there. I will stay there.
01:06:04 You know what, Rom? You're hungry and you sit down there and now you just, now you got it, boy, cricks and butt.
01:06:10 So you don't try to rile up some, and you, at that point, you could bite into a piece of concrete.
01:06:14 Right? So all it's about saying that.
01:06:16 But what she would be told is the moment I could be doing it all the time and the moment I would say, "Babes, you're cooking," the parents would think,
01:06:28 "Oh, you see, you have an expectation for to cook and have an expectation to do this and that typical man."
01:06:34 And in other words, these small things became big things to the point that I kept feeling that, wait, these are just typical meal things.
01:06:43 And we need to get away from this understanding of what is a man and what is a woman innately.
01:06:51 Things that we go back to those hunter, nurturer, and it has nothing to do with equality.
01:06:59 It has nothing to do with lesser or compromise or even being submissive.
01:07:04 It's just what is naturally in me and what is naturally in you that I can't question.
01:07:11 So if you start to, if a man starts to question, "Why is a woman so, like, why is she so, boy?"
01:07:17 And it's not you. It's women in general.
01:07:20 Vice versa, women question a man's behavior.
01:07:23 Unless you go in with somebody else, all men, true men, are going to be a particular way.
01:07:30 Your fundamentals as in terms of societal influences may make you be a certain way.
01:07:35 Like you might massage, you might do different things that are different to what another man may do.
01:07:41 But fundamentally, a man is a man and a woman is a woman.
01:07:44 And we need to start looking at that, addressing it, respecting it, and moving the bleep on.
01:07:52 What I think people need to start doing is, again, communication and getting to know your partner.
01:08:00 All of that, a man is a woman, a woman is a woman, a man is a man, all of that means nothing if you don't know your partner.
01:08:08 Because there's women out here who don't cook.
01:08:11 They're not going in our kitchen, they're not picking up our pot, and that is fine.
01:08:15 But for someone to say that a woman's innate feeling is to, you know, wake up in the morning.
01:08:21 No, that is something that's taught to you from a child.
01:08:26 I can cook. I feel to cook for my boyfriend.
01:08:29 But the reason why that happens is because when I was growing up, my mom always taught me that,
01:08:35 and by watching her do for her husband, wake up in the morning, you cook breakfast, you cook dinner.
01:08:40 That is the reason why I like to do it.
01:08:42 Some women grew up with that and still don't like to do it, and some women just don't like to cook.
01:08:47 And that's fine. And some men love to cook. They will come home, they will cook up their pot,
01:08:52 they like to get up and make breakfast for their wife.
01:08:54 Some women, like, I feel like there is a space in their life where your generation,
01:09:01 they have been more man is man and woman is woman.
01:09:05 But you see my generation and Gen Z, we're not having that.
01:09:09 We don't believe in gender roles.
01:09:11 I think we believe in beyond gender roles, because we have realized that the generation before us are so messed up.
01:09:23 All of this talk, but they're just...
01:09:27 Wait, wait, the gender before us is messed up and not the generation coming forward?
01:09:34 Where somebody is saying they want to be a unicorn?
01:09:38 No, that is a whole other topic for a whole other day.
01:09:43 We're not going to get into that.
01:09:46 I think, Denia, what you were saying, instead of gender roles, what you're saying is,
01:09:52 and I'll qualify, gender programming.
01:09:54 So let's say a man is a provider and protector, just going, let's say the hard way,
01:09:59 a man is a provider and protector and a woman is a nurturer, right?
01:10:02 That manifests itself in different ways depending on the generation, depending on the skill set.
01:10:08 Because let's say a woman has no cooking skills.
01:10:10 And I can tell you, I've seen this, observed this, doing enough couples counseling also.
01:10:15 When a woman feels safe, I'm going with the safety now, when a woman feels safe,
01:10:20 99% of the time she comes into her feminine, that nurture.
01:10:26 Let's say she can't cook. Let's say the man is a person who loves to cook.
01:10:29 So his role is to cook. She would do something to try to nurture and help him cook better
01:10:35 or nurture him while he's cooking.
01:10:37 So you want me to take out the pots for you? You want me to wash the wares, et cetera, et cetera.
01:10:41 So the manifestation of it may be different.
01:10:44 But what I think Robert is saying, and to be honest, I was the opposite argument.
01:10:49 I was like, anybody could do anything, but I always like empirical evidence.
01:10:52 And what I've seen thus far is when both men and women are in a state of psychological safety,
01:11:00 they default, I'm using that loosely, they default to whatever those gender roles,
01:11:06 not necessarily actions, but the gender roles occur.
01:11:09 And that will come back to something we discussed in prior conversations
01:11:13 where we spoke about masculine energy.
01:11:15 So masculine energy comes about when one, either side.
01:11:20 So in other words, if you feel that you're not getting what's innately in a man,
01:11:25 and that's the thing, it's not a conscious thing, it's a subconscious thing.
01:11:29 And if you're not getting that connection, what happens is you start to take on those roles.
01:11:34 You start to take on that behavior. You start to take on that survival mode,
01:11:37 especially when it comes to your kids.
01:11:39 If you're not getting that security, you start to behave in that particular way
01:11:42 because you're not getting it from the man.
01:11:44 And vice versa, from a man to a woman, he then takes on what he's expecting to get from her.
01:11:49 So it's you. So he may think, "I need to be a bit more nurturing.
01:11:52 I might want to touch you a bit more."
01:11:54 Because he really is saying, "Hey, I'm trying to show you so that you can do what is innate."
01:12:00 And it has nothing to do with generations because the innateness of it is throughout.
01:12:06 As Yohansi pointed out, it's just manifestations of it. Sorry.
01:12:10 I always hear a lot of people discuss this gender role issue
01:12:15 and why does a woman have to be in the kitchen all the time.
01:12:19 Is it because they feel a woman built smaller and her foot shorter so she can stand up closer to the stove?
01:12:24 And they always have jokes about it, right?
01:12:26 And I know women who don't really like to cook.
01:12:31 But I feel, again, and this is how you started the conversation, Robert,
01:12:35 with Mr. Right or Mr. Wrong and Mrs. Right or Mrs. Wrong.
01:12:39 If I know that I like to eat home-cooked food as a man
01:12:44 and I can cook and I'm busy throughout the day,
01:12:48 why would I go and put myself with a woman who can't cook either
01:12:52 and she's busy all day too unless both of us make enough money that we can hire a maid home
01:12:57 that can cook and both of us get home-cooked food when we come home?
01:13:01 If you don't do that, you're going to run into issues
01:13:04 because the man now who likes that and he wants a home-cooked meal
01:13:08 and he, "Oh, I could do it with macaroni pie and a street chicken and a callalooba.
01:13:12 I can't wait to go and eat that."
01:13:14 I went to the ritual and my wife can't cook nothing.
01:13:17 And a woman in work now knows that this man likes that
01:13:21 and she comes and says, "Hey, Robert, boy, I know you like to cook yesterday and get this."
01:13:26 You as a woman now, you could create issues now with your team
01:13:31 because this is what the man likes.
01:13:33 And that might have been a problem in the beginning in selecting the wrong partner.
01:13:38 Mr. Right or Mr. Wrong.
01:13:40 Maybe if I wasn't that person in the beginning and I think I really love this person
01:13:44 and I care for this person and this is what this person likes,
01:13:47 then I might have to learn to cook because the woman likes this or the man likes this
01:13:52 and I might have to conform a bit and compromise to cater for that person.
01:13:57 Or it comes as though you mentioned male energy and bravado and all of that.
01:14:03 A lot of women, if you have a man, you have a flat tire, something wrong with the car,
01:14:09 you want to be able to call on your man to say, "Babe, something here, come and help me," whatever.
01:14:14 You bring a man there, the man never change a tire in his life.
01:14:17 He know what to do. He call in some next man to come.
01:14:20 Again, you as a woman, how you will feel if your man is a manly man.
01:14:25 Or you have a problem home in the house, the electricity gone or a pipe break or something like that,
01:14:33 and you expect the man to take a wrench and deal with this issue.
01:14:36 You go to your man and say, "Babe, you fix it," or a cockroach fly in the house.
01:14:41 And he's screaming at you.
01:14:43 You're screaming and he's screaming more than you are.
01:14:45 Somebody break in. Go and check that.
01:14:47 You as a woman, you would expect certain or somebody, you're hearing a noise outside there
01:14:52 and you don't know if it's a bandit or if it's a whatever.
01:14:55 And he tell you, "You go first."
01:14:57 Right, exactly. And you say, "Babe, I hear something, you go there," and you as a woman scared.
01:15:03 You expect your man to man up and go and check and see what is going on.
01:15:08 It's the same way a man expecting his woman to woman up and say,
01:15:13 "Well, babe, I know you're hungry and you know, come home from work and look, I'll prepare something for you."
01:15:17 Because in a man, he expecting that nurturing aspect of the woman to be able to take care of him and the family and the household.
01:15:24 And the same way the woman will kind of lean on the man to be the protector and the provider of the household.
01:15:29 I feel like I am a bit, and this is just me and I'm not saying it's the right way,
01:15:33 but for me, I am a bit more traditional when it comes to the gender roles.
01:15:37 A man should be a man. In certain cases, a woman should be a woman.
01:15:41 It's not to say you don't have your independence and you can't make your own money.
01:15:44 I'm making my money, you're making yours.
01:15:46 But when we come home as a team, I feel like if I ain't going and send you outside to go under the car to change the oil.
01:15:52 I'm not going and send you outside to pick up dog toots in the yard and to rake up the leaves and the whatever.
01:15:58 I as a man, I ain't sending you on the roof to go and change, no galvanize.
01:16:02 I go do them things. As a man, I feel that is my role.
01:16:05 And then it's the vice versa. As a woman, I expect that, okay, babe, I do want to now change the roof on that thing and I come home sweaty.
01:16:12 So, what are you eating?
01:16:14 What we eating? So, why you can't cook? Again, right?
01:16:19 Why you can't cook?
01:16:20 Well, it's no problem. I go buy the food.
01:16:22 It depends. It depends for me.
01:16:24 I wanted to take this as your closing thoughts because we've gone on. I think the topic is up.
01:16:29 There are two episodes.
01:16:31 We've taken two into one. I think it's worth the conversation.
01:16:37 And again, we're delighted to have a female's perspective.
01:16:40 We have two females now, one perspective on the show, which we're very grateful for.
01:16:45 So, let's hear your closing thoughts, either rebuttal to Rome or in general.
01:16:51 My closing thoughts would definitely have to be, and I always stand firm in communication with your partner and actually taking the time to get to know someone and all of these little things about them.
01:17:03 I feel like we have a culture where we start to date someone, we fall in love, and we don't even know them yet.
01:17:10 So, after we fall in love, we just take everything that comes with them.
01:17:14 You can have all of those arguments and not getting to know someone because you didn't actually take the time in the beginning to get to know this person before you actually put yourself with them in a relationship.
01:17:26 So, communication for sure. There's someone for everyone.
01:17:30 So, if your values are that you are more in a traditional sense, then again, it's important to get to know the person that you're dating and ensure that their values align with your values and you both can agree on those things.
01:17:43 If you're not and your values are more in an untraditional sense where you're more of equality, then it's important for you to date someone who also feels like that.
01:17:52 So, you guys won't have to be in that constant battle for your entire relationship and marriage and all of that.
01:17:59 So, that's for me. Communication, it's important. Communicate.
01:18:02 Everybody is so scared to talk or they feel like they're going to hurt somebody's ego.
01:18:07 They feel like they're going to hurt their own ego by just being honest.
01:18:12 Men and their shit.
01:18:14 And women. Women don't like to communicate.
01:18:16 But then again, it's all about creating a safe space.
01:18:18 As I said before, my person created a safe space for me to be able to communicate how I'm feeling and to always say what's on my mind.
01:18:27 He created that space for me because I was never that type of person.
01:18:31 So, it's just important that people create that space within their relationship that you guys can openly communicate.
01:18:40 Johansi, for some reason.
01:18:44 I am second in what Denier said in terms of the communication.
01:18:49 You know I purport being honest and especially as men to be honest.
01:18:53 Because to really get to know someone, first you have to know yourself and be honest about who you are and what you want.
01:18:59 Because if you come into a relationship and you want somebody to be something that they're not, it will always cause a problem.
01:19:05 So, no matter what roles it is, forget let's say gender roles versus an agreement.
01:19:11 Both of you will come into the relationship, this is what I want to do, this is what I want from you.
01:19:16 Tell me what you want, etc. and then have an honest conversation.
01:19:19 And if you all have that honest conversation, then the relationship will be healthy.
01:19:25 A lot here today.
01:19:27 And like I said, it's worth the extension of the conversation.
01:19:30 I thank you all for your time.
01:19:33 Johansi, Denier, Rome, it's been powerful.
01:19:36 I've learned a lot.
01:19:37 And I remember a lot of what's discussed here today is not necessarily someone's opinion.
01:19:41 We're speaking to those who are out there listening and we're meeting people where they're at.
01:19:46 And having those conversations to hopefully make your life a bit better.
01:19:51 Or make you understand a bit more what you may be going through or someone else might be going through.
01:19:56 And help alleviate some of those issues where we go from trivial to violence.
01:20:05 And at the core of it, it might be something that's very easily understood or as you put it, communicated.
01:20:11 So, man up when you can, woman up when you can.
01:20:14 And it's about accepting what you are willing to accept.
01:20:20 Bottom line.
01:20:21 So, this has been another conversation of mine.
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