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00:00 I always gravitated towards really graphic, visual treatments.
00:04 And I remember a lot of times growing up when I enjoyed the titles
00:09 or what they promised more than the film itself.
00:12 And so I'm wanting to recreate that kind of thrill.
00:16 You know, it's like teasing out the story.
00:18 Sometimes it gives away a little bit of what you're about to see.
00:22 But yeah, I mean, it's packaging. I think design in general,
00:25 like whether it's a virtual packaging like in motion or in a film
00:28 or if it's like an industrial design packaging,
00:30 I've just always been fascinated by that stuff.
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01:40 Oh, wow.
01:43 [Laughter]
01:46 I think it encapsulates everything.
01:49 You know, growing up, I think I responded to the most like graphic
01:54 and highly visual like cartoons and animation, you know.
01:58 And so I think that, you know, the love of that always, you know,
02:01 transferred into, you know, films.
02:04 And one that Mike can talk more about is, you know, like, you know,
02:08 your James Bond type title sequences and other things like that.
02:11 Yeah, and it just, and kind of, you know,
02:14 watching how that's developed over the last few decades.
02:16 Yeah, it's like, how would you not want to be involved, you know?
02:19 I think for me, you know, like as I get older and kind of more reflective
02:22 on things and why I ended up in this path,
02:26 I think I've always been fascinated by design in general.
02:29 Like as a kid, you know, like looking at the cereal box, you know,
02:32 that's like a core memory that I have.
02:35 And then, you know, like watching TV and seeing like the intros to a TV show
02:40 along with the music and, you know, like the sit, ubu sit.
02:44 I don't know, Chet, I know you remember that.
02:46 Yeah.
02:47 Is that like Golden Girls maybe? I can't remember.
02:50 Oh, yeah.
02:51 Yeah, I just, I love that, you know, and I loved when they would do a new one
02:55 every year, when they would update it, I would always notice,
02:58 and especially for TV, but movies as well.
03:00 And yeah, Chet and I were talking last time about Bond films and how that,
03:03 like I only realized like last year I was like, oh, that's why I'm doing this.
03:08 Like that, that stuff is awesome.
03:10 Oh, well, I began as an editor years ago and,
03:19 and then kind of slowly migrated over to the design side.
03:23 So, you know, started from like a focus on storytelling and then,
03:26 and then really honed in on this one area kind of over the last decade or more,
03:32 I guess, you know, it's really kind of focused.
03:35 Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah.
03:37 Like Chet, I know we collaborate well together and it's,
03:40 it's interesting to think, cause I'm a little, I'm a little bit opposite.
03:42 Like I've always been interested in music.
03:44 And so I think that really helps with the editorial process and, you know,
03:47 timing and everything else.
03:49 And I've also been a fan of cartoons and, and animation in general.
03:53 But yeah, I went to school for design. And then as soon as I found out,
03:57 like my, as soon as I found out that you could do design, but in motion,
04:01 I was like, oh yeah, I'm not, not book binding anymore.
04:04 I'm interested in, in what's next.
04:06 That is a really funny story. Mike, do you want to start that one?
04:16 Yeah.
04:17 You were like, I guess this is the guy.
04:20 Yeah. It was really interesting. You know, they, they,
04:24 they reached out to us, you know, through production team.
04:28 And then the opportunity came up and I immediately was like, you know,
04:33 as head of design at the time,
04:35 my job was to kind of to build teams and try to find the right people for
04:39 the right job. And I'd remembered that Chet shared a tarot card when we did
04:44 a little show and tell like early COVID days,
04:47 when you would do that sort of thing, which I kind of miss. I like that.
04:51 But, but yeah, so then I was like, oh, immediately I was like, oh, this is,
04:54 this is right in Chet's alley. And I think he's got multiple tarot cards and,
04:58 and probably a cabinet of curiosities himself somewhere. So yeah,
05:03 I think that became very clear that that was right to collaborate. And then,
05:07 you know, I stayed on to help just more top level and,
05:12 and kind of really collaborate on hammering home.
05:15 Some of some of the stuff that we really wanted to, you know,
05:17 just stay true to.
05:18 So I think just having a little bit more of a zoomed out perspective was,
05:21 was helpful hopefully for the, for the end product.
05:23 Yeah. Yeah. I had been,
05:25 I've been showing off like multiple decks of tarot cards like the day before
05:30 it was fun. But yeah. And just being a huge fan, like the moment,
05:35 the moment it came up, it was like, well,
05:36 that's what I'm doing for the next few months. Just total obsession. Yeah.
05:42 Oh, you know, it was, you know,
05:45 thankfully because it was Guillermo del Toro, it had already started,
05:48 you know, like, I mean, because being a huge fan of his work, you know,
05:51 I think, I think I started with devil's backbone on DHS,
05:55 like a really, really long time ago and, you know,
05:57 caught everything since. And so since it kind of existed in his body of work,
06:02 you know, and we knew almost nothing,
06:04 but we knew the title was a call out to his work and his,
06:08 his journals, you know, so that was a further call out.
06:11 We knew from the titles of the series that, you know,
06:14 there were a couple of Lovecraft stories in there,
06:16 some other like short fiction, you know,
06:18 from all the way up to about the late seventies, you know,
06:21 so we kind of knew that it was a range of his influences and kind of in there.
06:25 And that was enough really. And then from there it was, you know,
06:29 really diving into the historical part of cabinets of curiosity and then,
06:33 you know, being in New York,
06:34 like going out and actually seeing some of those analogous things, you know,
06:38 deep in the collections of the Met and the museum of natural history and all
06:42 through the cemetery belt and exploring like all these, you know,
06:45 ancient cemeteries with their dilapidated graves from the 1800s, you know,
06:49 and kind of build in this world of like photo collages and,
06:52 and just speculating ideas was kind of where it all started.
06:55 Yeah. I mean, Chet's being modest.
06:58 I think he was kind of like the, the,
07:00 the idea of of Guillermo del Toro and really an expert on, on,
07:04 on his work. So that was, that was so helpful for us. And I think for,
07:08 you know, for me, I just, just looking into, you know,
07:12 just looking at other title sequences, what works, what doesn't work,
07:16 what we like to improve on. And I think it became clear that like the,
07:21 the idea of this, you know,
07:23 the cabinet of curiosities is a cabinet that holds a lot of things that
07:27 have stories in the same way that the show is, you know,
07:30 it's an anthology and it holds different stories inside.
07:33 And so that kind of, again, going back to the packaging idea,
07:36 it kind of made sense to, you know, make it,
07:39 make it kind of a on the nose reference of, of this cabinet,
07:43 but also it was so much more than that. And it was so unexpected.
07:47 And, and you know,
07:48 with Chet's encyclopedic knowledge of all these oddities and,
07:52 and, and all the, and all the,
07:54 encyclopedic knowledge of, of all these oddities and then getting on the
07:57 phone. I mean, I have to say also Guillermo and J Miles Dale,
08:01 it was so really generous with just collaboration and giving us ideas.
08:06 And you know, I remember Chet,
08:09 we were like writing down furiously as Guillermo and being like, Oh,
08:13 Fiji mermaid, you got to have that. You got to have that.
08:15 And we're like, okay, got it.
08:17 And then, you know, Chet, I'm, I'm, I'm speaking for myself here.
08:20 Chet was probably more, well, I'm assuming you knew some of those things.
08:23 And I was like, yeah, yeah.
08:24 And I'm looking that up and I'm like, Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.
08:28 So yeah, it was cool. Yeah, it was great. I mean,
08:32 because I think we were doing more of like a traditional world building
08:35 thing. Like I had, I had kind of, you know,
08:38 wanted to take us from something that felt very conventional all the way
08:42 into where we landed. He's like, no, no, no, no, no.
08:44 We start there, we get right in at the best part. And that was, yeah,
08:49 it was like really, really wonderful.
08:51 Crystal clear guidance, like right in the moment on exactly what to highlight
08:55 and exactly where to go and, and everything else that would be in there.
08:59 And so then it was just this great process of realizing all that, you know,
09:02 and, and the, but, you know,
09:05 he latched on to the idea that I had in the early treatment and that I've,
09:08 you know, created in tests with the art director, David Rowley of like,
09:11 you know, recursion and, you know,
09:14 the idea that you move through a door and,
09:16 and you're going to find yourself in a different space, you know,
09:19 but, but a related space and there's really no way to leave after that.
09:22 And, you know, scale might shift laws of physics up and down, you know,
09:26 all these things become relative and you just go deeper in.
09:30 And so,
09:31 and that was a really key theme that we just cranked way up in the final
09:35 execution.
09:36 We didn't get to see the episodes until we were actually in production.
09:40 We,
09:41 we were pitching for maybe three or four months before we started,
09:46 you know, or concepting, you know,
09:48 you know that, but at first it first came to our radar about three or four
09:52 months before we actually made it.
09:53 And we were aware that the episodes were finishing,
09:56 but it was quite a while before we saw them with, you know, you know,
10:00 placeholder music and sound and all those caveats.
10:03 So, so it was,
10:05 it was really great for us when we finally caught, you know,
10:08 the actual airing versions, you know, wedded together.
10:10 Another big element of mystery that turned out to work so well was the
10:14 personal introductions, you know, that,
10:17 that they did for each one as well.
10:20 So, and it was, it was great how everything flowed together.
10:22 We did have a lot of supporting knowledge and we had the scripts and in
10:26 some cases like some production material, but you know,
10:29 we were kind of going on faith and on precedent and just kind of rather than
10:32 trying to specifically target any individual episode, just kind of, you know,
10:36 create a complimentary world that we're traveling through to get there.
10:40 Yeah. And I was going to say, yeah,
10:42 the access to the scripts is really,
10:44 really helpful and going back to the generosity of the production team,
10:48 but also like you were saying, Chet, about
10:51 getting into the intro and how, you know,
10:56 that was sort of work in progress when we first started,
10:58 which was kind of interesting. And as we developed our titles, you know,
11:02 they were developing how they were going to introduce each episode.
11:04 I think they were still kind of putting that last piece together,
11:06 together if I'm not mistaken. So it was kind of cool.
11:11 Yeah. Cause we discussed different ways of trying to link ours to theirs,
11:15 but I think the final way they came up with is really fantastic.
11:19 And it was a huge surprise to see the ways the cabinet could mechanically
11:23 change too. We were like, what? You know, so that was really, really nice.
11:27 Time and resources. I think the original idea was,
11:38 I probably had like a multimillion dollar concept when we started,
11:42 like when I first brought it to the mic, it was like, well, okay. You know?
11:45 And I think it was just bringing the essence of that through in the time that we
11:50 had. And we were super fortunate to get the team that we got. You know,
11:54 we had two dedicated Houdini artists, you know, start to finish,
11:57 David Rowley and Akshay Tiwari. And, and it was, you know,
12:01 it was really just a dream team situation. And so every day, you know, we,
12:05 we had, we had a lot of miles to cover, but, but there was almost no wasted effort,
12:09 you know, and it was a real labor of love.
12:11 And it was really fun to be in all these meetings. Like, like,
12:14 is this strange enough? It's just the type of questions you don't typically ask.
12:18 And, and so, you know,
12:20 even though we were racing against the clock and we were always trying to
12:23 protect time for that, where we needed it, it was fun.
12:26 I think, yeah. I would say time and time and resources is my top answer too.
12:31 And then just for me,
12:33 I just wanted to make sure that there was always enough detail in there,
12:36 which absolutely, you know,
12:37 the team nailed in terms of making sure that the repeatability is there.
12:42 You know, you don't get bored of seeing it every time.
12:44 There's always something new. I think when you, when you watch it,
12:46 which I still like having come back to it now, as you know,
12:50 we are honored for the nomination.
12:53 It's really cool to see all those like Easter eggs. I'm like, wait,
12:55 I never, never saw that exact thing before, you know? So it's all in there.
12:59 It was really cool to see that come along and the detail kind of get,
13:03 get fleshed out over time. Cause you know, the camera and,
13:07 and the blocking and the edit, you know,
13:09 that was something that we obviously were working on at the very beginning
13:12 and felt pretty good about, but adding that detail.
13:14 And I think was, was challenging.
13:16 Cause it just takes time to make all that stuff.
13:18 Yeah.
13:19 Yeah. I guess was that,
13:21 that moment at the end when the atmospherics all came in, like that was when,
13:24 that was when the rooms really tied together for me.
13:26 Like this was when we got that fog.
13:33 Yeah. I mean, for me, the, the sort of the nod to the book spines at the end,
13:36 I know that was kind of a middle towards late kind of a comment that,
13:42 that we were thinking about and getting,
13:45 making sure that we got that in there was really,
13:48 was really important to me. And I just love the way that it's like, you know,
13:52 you see that it's spines of books, they're coming together, it's cabinets,
13:54 it's kind of like stories. I just really love that. It's, it's, you know,
13:59 it's, it's kind of subtle, but I think most people kind of get, get what it is.
14:02 I love that moment. And then, and then it's right before the climax,
14:06 the climactic kind of titles and the,
14:08 and the title card and the doors closing.
14:11 Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was a fun one too, because it,
14:15 we were just talking about it for so long. I was like, you gotta believe it's
14:19 going to be, it's going to work. You gotta believe.
14:21 And I remember when we finally had it in there and we had this,
14:24 yeah, it worked. Like, yeah, it was, it was very, very fun. Yeah.
14:28 I think, I think, yeah, that moment, like the,
14:32 at the end where we realized that we, you know, we probably didn't leave,
14:35 we're probably not going to be able to leave that, you know,
14:39 that kind of dusty, misty horizon as the, as the doors are sealing. Yeah.
14:44 Coming back off that same moment, I think is, is my favorite. I love,
14:47 I love those types of endings. I don't want to spoil it,
14:50 but I just saw another film with a super circular ending that's in theaters
14:54 right now, like really great horror film. And I was like, yes,
14:57 because every time I see that example of you're not getting out of here.
15:01 Like, I, yeah, I just love that. I also love, you know, David,
15:05 David Rowley's first test of the cabinet kind of, you know, smearing,
15:08 smearing into it, which that was in our original pitch.
15:11 And that stayed pretty true till the end. You know, obviously it got,
15:14 it got tweaked as we went, but that's just such an unexpected way for wood to
15:19 move. Yeah. Yeah. That was nestled in the middle.
15:24 That was kind of our bridge up when,
15:26 when our intensity originally increased and in the first treatment and,
15:30 you know, and, and as soon as they saw it, they were like, no,
15:33 that's where we start. Like, yeah, that's, that's our key image.
15:42 I think it's I think it's tone and context, you know,
15:46 talking about that idea of the packaging. I think it's, you know,
15:52 it's, it's a way in and a, and a way to kind of,
15:55 a way to kind of separate where you're headed from where you've been that I
15:58 think is, is really important. I love that idea of,
16:01 of it serving as an overture, you know, and,
16:04 and trying to try to make it a process that you really enjoy,
16:08 like how you reach this story that you're ready to see. So, yeah,
16:13 to me, the best ones work as like, you know, this,
16:16 this wonderful process into the story. Yeah. I think, you know, like setting the
16:22 table kind of, you know, it's just, it's really priming the viewer,
16:25 getting the tone. I think that's really important.
16:27 And that's kind of a challenge, you know,
16:29 when you don't have the final product you want to match the tone of the show
16:32 or the, or the movie. So I think, I think kind of,
16:37 it's an opportunity to, you know, be playful.
16:40 And I think it's really,
16:42 I really like title sequences that are like playing in a different medium than
16:45 the, than the show, you know, like catch me if you can,
16:47 is a great example of that, where it's this kind of, you know,
16:50 almost pink panther-ish kind of, kind of thing going on. But yeah,
16:54 I think, I think tone is great. And, you know,
16:57 you get a chance to hear the music, like you said, Chet, it's the overture.
16:59 So it's like the visual overture, this kind of a nice way.
17:02 And it's art.
17:05 We are in talks with a few things, but nothing,
17:13 nothing perfectly lined up right now, obviously with the current situation,
17:17 with the strikes, it's a little bit, everybody's a little bit, you know,
17:21 not working. And so I think that that's, you know,
17:26 obviously a factor, but, but yeah, no, I think, you know,
17:30 excited for the next opportunity to come in and yeah,
17:33 really excited to hopefully work with Guillermo del Toro in the future and
17:37 J. Miles Dale.
17:38 Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I, again, with the writer's strike, you know,
17:43 there hasn't been as much of that going on, but I,
17:45 I'm involved with the documentary that I'm really excited about right now.
17:48 I don't think I'm able to talk about it for another month or so, but,
17:51 but yeah, so it's, it's my favorite space to work in.
17:55 So I'm really excited to be doing more.
17:58 I really like working in short formats.
18:01 I think it's like from being years, years and years working for commercials,
18:05 you know, what you, what you can pull off in 30 seconds is really,
18:08 is really exciting. And I love the fact that main titles,
18:11 or title sequences, you know, they're,
18:15 they're as varied as the styles of film and media that we have.
18:19 And I think that that's really exciting.
18:21 And I think that's what I'm really excited about.
18:23 I think, you know, something like that, super short, like a black mirror,
18:26 like I really think that's effective and it's great.
18:29 And yeah, I just think it's really exciting now that there's so many
18:33 different flavors of titles out there, you know,
18:35 the game of Thrones stuff, which obviously is from a few years ago,
18:38 but so epic and big budget. I mean, hopefully big budget, but, you know,
18:44 high production value, amazing, really,
18:47 really exciting to see what's going on with the film and the media.
18:50 You know, high production value, amazing, really, really cool stuff.
18:54 And then you have something that's just a static type card.
18:56 That's kind of almost influenced by like the sixties and seventies kind of
19:00 title cards that were done optically.
19:02 So that's what I'm excited about just the range and really getting a chance
19:06 to do a little bit of storytelling, but then you also,
19:09 you don't have to like have the full beginning, middle and end.
19:13 It's kind of like a tease and kind of,
19:15 it can be a little bit more for looser and more flexible.
19:18 - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's like, I mean,
19:21 it's just a seductive idea to be able to get into a dialogue with all those
19:25 things that have influenced us all, you know,
19:28 and all the reasons why we're doing this.
19:30 I mean, it's like Mike, when you talked about the, you know,
19:33 your first contact with design, yeah. You know, cereal boxes, film trailers,
19:37 toy packages, you know, and absolutely always title sequences, you know?
19:41 And it's, I think it's, you know,
19:44 it's this type of format where you really do kind of,
19:48 you can sort of participate in that long evolution and in that long dialogue.
19:53 And yeah. And why would you not want to? Absolutely. You know?
19:58 Yeah. It's a, it's really,
20:00 really a compelling thing to be involved with for sure.
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