Manhood - Episode 16
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00:00:00 Manhood brought to you by Jameson natural sources since 1922 and Racetrack
00:00:08 Thank you for joining us again on Manhood. We've had so many really great
00:00:17 conversations some have been absolutely epic and you think you go into this
00:00:23 subject knowing having done your research and then you come out of it
00:00:26 with so much more knowledge and a whole other point of view which is really good
00:00:30 and which is what the show is about we're not here to give our own opinions
00:00:34 we're here as a few persons talking to everyone and once again I'm delighted to
00:00:39 have another female on Manhood and let me do the introductions once again
00:00:44 Johansi Aoudike, behavior change consultant, Shireen Pollard really happy
00:00:50 to have her finally in the seat at Manhood, manager of gender-based violence at
00:00:57 Trinidad and Tobago Police Service and Taddeus Taddeboom, entertainer, singer, actor
00:01:04 you name it he's done it. Taddeus it's really good to have you to get a whole
00:01:08 other perspective and from also a generational perspective which is really
00:01:13 great you know one of the things we want to make sure we're meeting everyone
00:01:16 where they are and to meet them where they are you have to be in that place so
00:01:21 I would say I don't know I mean I don't want to call anybody by age but I think
00:01:26 that we have a good you know a lot of diversity here in Central Africa. Do you remember calling people by age?
00:01:32 Equity, of course. So you know again as we are Manhood do it's all about being very open
00:01:40 very straightforward there's no cover for your mouth as they say and today's topic
00:01:48 No cover?
00:01:50 No cover, no cover. They are big for that.
00:01:52 So you know we always very respectful of Taddeus of course. Taddeus, one of the things that is a burning topic you know I
00:02:01 marinate it so much as to how do we bring all this this entire conversation
00:02:07 into like a melting pot and you know Shireen and I have had many a
00:02:12 conversation actually was part of starting off Manhood in the first place
00:02:15 and the subject or the topic I came up with the phrase is just say no and in
00:02:24 just saying no you immediately go to the space of a woman and a man or man and a
00:02:29 man or a woman and a woman basically sexual interaction and that's where it
00:02:33 normally comes from we're gonna talk about it across the gamut what it means
00:02:38 to really just say no and that means the burning topic that most women have on
00:02:43 their lips and men to a certain extent equality equity all right I'm just
00:02:50 gonna do like you know I just want to really sit back in this one and just
00:02:54 enjoy the conversation.
00:02:58 All right so you throw out just say no and then you throw out equality versus equity.
00:03:04 So just to put it in context, so the whole just say no apart from us going to be
00:03:08 discussing it with regards to sex and when a woman says no she really means no
00:03:12 and we're going into all this chivalry, dad, dating, all of these different things
00:03:17 it just say no with regards to equality right is women in what it may could be
00:03:23 considered in a male-dominated environment and what women really want
00:03:27 and part of that as we quote our good friend Dr. Jordan Peterson is women for
00:03:33 the most part are the gender that's more agreeable. I know you're waiting for the fireman to say that.
00:03:41 I said it in context.
00:03:43 No I don't disagree.
00:03:45 Women are more agreeable and as a result in order to be able to get to those positions they have to do what men
00:03:51 themselves maybe open or committed to doing so working 80 hour weeks to be
00:03:58 entirely focused give up everything that you can to get those particular jobs if
00:04:03 a woman wants to also achieve that she has to be almost take on those male
00:04:09 traits and just say no to being so agreeable so I'm just again Dr. Jordan
00:04:15 Peterson I'm just putting that out there and let's go.
00:04:20 Alright so I could start.
00:04:22 Women being more agreeable I agree with that because generally women tend to make
00:04:29 decisions based on emotion more than logic so if we go in agreeable then you
00:04:33 would think about well how the person might feel you know if it might look bad
00:04:38 etc etc so even when negotiating because I remember the example he gave was when
00:04:43 women negotiating salary most women don't negotiate well because they're
00:04:48 wondering they even thinking about the company like if the company have enough
00:04:51 money can they pay me how it might look versus a man saying there's a job I'm doing
00:04:55 you either pay me or you don't pay me. So generally I would agree with what Jordan
00:05:01 Peterson saying that women are more agreeable in general and that's why
00:05:04 sometimes women do succeed in the workplace because the things a man might
00:05:09 be I might ask for even have the b**** pun intended right to ask for a woman may not be able.
00:05:17 You know I just want to interject there.
00:05:20 Your name is not Sheree.
00:05:22 I know ladies are always first right but I just want to I just want it's just when he made the analogy to you know don't have the balls and it's just always a pet peeve of heart that you know what where did that ever come from you don't have the balls to do something.
00:05:40 You don't say come on let's test the killer fortitude but you know you kick a man in the balls.
00:05:47 That's like a Achilles heel. You go down on the ground so the balls the whole fact that you're using that as a position you know.
00:05:54 Indicator of power somehow.
00:05:56 Indicator of power is a bit of an oxymoron.
00:06:00 Yes and no.
00:06:01 I don't think it's power though but.
00:06:03 Let me tell you why.
00:06:04 If you're saying.
00:06:05 Let me tell you. You see that argument what he said there that argument actually came from a woman.
00:06:08 So what you're doing is parroting an argument of a woman.
00:06:10 That's one.
00:06:11 Two.
00:06:12 Two is that it came from and it could be erroneous.
00:06:15 Which is not so bad. Parroting an argument of a woman.
00:06:18 I didn't say it was bad.
00:06:20 I didn't say it was bad.
00:06:22 I didn't say it was bad.
00:06:23 [Laughter]
00:06:26 Hide it a little bit.
00:06:28 I didn't say it was bad.
00:06:30 The man didn't say that at all.
00:06:31 That was an insinuation right.
00:06:34 Which sometimes women jump to in terms of conclusion.
00:06:37 That's not that good right.
00:06:38 I want to challenge something as we continue.
00:06:44 I want to count how many times you say some women before you start a sentence in this discussion.
00:06:50 Okay.
00:06:51 And tell me if that's just not very much a generalization.
00:06:56 So is it that you feel that you maybe know enough or have done enough research or had enough life experience
00:07:04 to be able to say confidently this is what some women do.
00:07:08 I'm just saying.
00:07:09 Do you prefer to see a percentage of women?
00:07:11 I prefer that to speak on behalf of women.
00:07:14 Listen, let's just drop the argument.
00:07:17 Well okay, I will consider what you're saying before I say it.
00:07:22 I'll consider that.
00:07:23 But I like what you said in terms of percentage.
00:07:25 So let me go back to the point you were saying about the cojones.
00:07:29 No, no, no.
00:07:33 That term came from because in general it was generally thought that a man was more assertive in certain actions.
00:07:41 And a man in terms of physical aggression and action.
00:07:44 So when you use cojones, even though I agree, a vagina by technical is stronger.
00:07:50 Physiology, a vagina is stronger than cojones.
00:07:53 So I get what you're saying.
00:07:55 But that's not the context it was used in.
00:07:57 In terms of the masculine energy and aggression and assertion.
00:08:00 But to identify that, you're talking about a man.
00:08:02 Correct.
00:08:03 That's what I see it as.
00:08:05 So before that analogy came up and I interjected, I apologize for you making a point.
00:08:11 I'm trying to remember now.
00:08:13 We were talking about women being more agreeable.
00:08:17 Oh right, women being more agreeable.
00:08:19 So I think it's society's expectations and the rules that are placed on women that makes them more agreeable.
00:08:26 If you look at the rules that they're placed in, so motherhood, they automatically become agreeable to some extent.
00:08:33 I guess taking care of a house, right?
00:08:36 So you become more agreeable that way.
00:08:38 Women would generally within the workforce as well started off in these support positions.
00:08:44 So when you're in these support positions, you're like, okay, yes, whatever you need, that kind of thing.
00:08:48 So I think it's a societal kind of expectation on women that women have adopted.
00:08:53 And it's not necessarily wrong. It's just the way society has just evolved, right?
00:08:58 But I hear what you're saying in terms of maybe women not negotiating for a better salary because they're worried about the organization not having enough money.
00:09:11 I can very much say I have never cared about an organization's budget when it came to negotiating my salary.
00:09:19 And I hear what you're saying, but on the other spectrum of that, there are women who really within the workplace, it's very difficult to get that kind of equity as it relates to pay.
00:09:32 In a job that I very recently had.
00:09:36 Call names now?
00:09:37 No, no, no. I can do that.
00:09:38 Okay, please.
00:09:39 You know, I learned that myself and a male counterpart, we both came into the organization at the same time, and he received a significant amount more money than I did.
00:09:53 And we had almost the exact qualifications.
00:09:56 And you attribute that immediately to the fact that he was male?
00:09:59 Absolutely. 100%.
00:10:01 What was the actual reason why?
00:10:03 Probably he was greasing something on that table.
00:10:05 What was the actual proven reason why?
00:10:07 I'll leave it to that because as well, my background is in law enforcement and child protection and that sort of thing.
00:10:14 So it's all very heavily male dominated.
00:10:17 Belief is not what you cannot see.
00:10:19 Exactly. Belief is perception. Lack of empirical evidence.
00:10:23 I am so in love. That's what he said. The same way he can say some woman is the same way I'm saying.
00:10:28 That's the front thing. That'll balance out.
00:10:33 So you didn't think to ask him?
00:10:35 No, because I wasn't in a position to do that. And just it wouldn't look right, you know, being still employed there.
00:10:41 So it's kind of just something that you have to kind of take up.
00:10:43 You see what she said there, it wouldn't look right. That's an example of the agreeableness.
00:10:47 Because a man might say, I hear about this man getting money.
00:10:50 But don't you get what I mean?
00:10:52 So you understand where the agreeableness comes in?
00:10:54 In a corporate environment, she wouldn't do that.
00:10:56 In a what environment?
00:10:58 I think it depends on the industry.
00:11:01 Agreeableness.
00:11:02 I think it's agreeableness and it's an assumption because he's male.
00:11:06 And I think that there are many situations that I take your point, but I think there are many situations where,
00:11:12 and I asked the question up to this morning, I asked a woman, I said, when you're going for a job, a particular job,
00:11:20 and remember we put it in context of in particular environments.
00:11:24 And I think even in Jordan Peterson's case, he spoke about the example in Scandinavia,
00:11:32 where in a natural order of things, when people had their own decisions to be made,
00:11:36 females gravitated to jobs that were support based, emotion based.
00:11:43 Went to a position of being an engineer.
00:11:46 Is it then that women are looking in, and I'm not even using the word some women,
00:11:51 I'm just, are women sometimes going to positions and thinking that, and in your case,
00:11:56 it's an assumption that I'm not getting that because it's a male.
00:12:01 It wasn't an assumption. That was it. That was the reason. There was no other reason.
00:12:04 I take it's an assumption because it was never asked.
00:12:08 And this is why women have to fight, you know, because when we see this is what it was,
00:12:14 y'all are coming and saying, no, it wasn't the right thing to do.
00:12:17 No, no, no, no, we're not saying no, we're not saying no, no, it could very well be that.
00:12:21 No, it could very well be that. What we are saying is you're not certain that it is that
00:12:26 because you never asked, you never clarify. Nobody say, well, yeah, A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
00:12:31 You understand what I'm saying? Right? No, you may very well be correct.
00:12:35 But until you find out and you know for sure, we have no idea.
00:12:39 Could it be nepotism? Could it be negotiated better?
00:12:44 Maybe he's tickling something under the table.
00:12:47 You're not saying that, be real.
00:12:50 But I am not, I am not, I am not.
00:12:53 OK, and if I was the only person that this happened to, then I would say yes.
00:12:57 You know what? Maybe there is some underlying factor.
00:13:00 But this happens disproportionately to women when we look at whatever studies.
00:13:04 I mean, I don't know, like it probably in the States, it's a little better in terms of the gender pay gap closing in.
00:13:10 And I don't have much research on what it's like in Trinidad, but, you know, based on my experience and what I've seen
00:13:17 and just anecdotal evidence, it appears that there's a huge gender gap as a result of just being a woman.
00:13:24 So can we bring that into the context as well of then diversity that, for example, if there's a job that's open
00:13:31 and you say, OK, well, I have to fill a black quota or I have to fill an Asian quota
00:13:36 and I'm hiring somebody based on that as opposed to are they the best person for the job.
00:13:42 Now, and people will say, yeah, a lot of times you have to hire someone based on, you know,
00:13:48 you have to have a certain quota that you have to fill.
00:13:50 But then ask yourself, if you're in a situation of say war or on a plane, would you want the best person
00:13:59 or would you want diversity or would you want equality?
00:14:02 But can't you, but then you make it seem like the diverse person is not necessarily the best person.
00:14:07 I'm just speaking.
00:14:09 Why is there a choice between the diversity and being the best?
00:14:17 He didn't say that.
00:14:19 But they could also.
00:14:21 And there it is. It could be either one.
00:14:24 But your question is posing a choice, right?
00:14:27 Is it that I want the diverse person or do I want the best person?
00:14:30 I want the best person regardless of who they are.
00:14:34 Right. But I don't know.
00:14:38 So military service, military service.
00:14:41 You know, you hear the argument all the time that if Trinidad and Tobago decided to go down that road, right,
00:14:45 how many women at that point would then decide, hey, you know, they want equality or they decide at that point,
00:14:51 hey, I'm going to go.
00:14:53 I think I think there is, you know, men do have that to face where there are a lot of inequalities
00:14:59 within the space of being a man, you know, be it being drafted into the military.
00:15:04 I know criminal sentences.
00:15:07 I know like men are like more likely to receive higher criminal sentences than women.
00:15:12 A lot of things. Right.
00:15:14 A lot of things that child support, alimony, all these things that men.
00:15:18 So I'm not saying that men don't have their battles to fight and they want to fight.
00:15:27 But there were, I think, also in you guys trying to fight those battles and kind of make awareness.
00:15:35 I would have said you guys. So like some women.
00:15:39 No, I mean, guys in this room.
00:15:43 You guys in this room.
00:15:45 But it also, you know, acknowledging women's rights and I guess, you know, that diversity and the disparity in sexual violence
00:15:55 and kind of like domestic violence doesn't negate the fight for the men. Right.
00:16:00 So it doesn't really have to be, in my opinion. And I don't.
00:16:03 So when I said I wasn't a feminist earlier, is that I don't believe one cause is better than the other to some extent.
00:16:12 You know, I think human rights is human rights. Right.
00:16:15 Yeah. And how we go about highlighting awareness on all these different rights is really important.
00:16:22 It's more about even though, you know, I will say things like, you know, you're saying some women and you're generalizing and all of that.
00:16:28 At the end of the day, I still think we're all in one fight because we all have valid biases or differences that happens.
00:16:38 So, yeah, I forgot what the initial point was, but that.
00:16:41 No, I take it because it gives us a really good segue. We're going to take a short break now.
00:16:45 But when we come back, as we continue on the topic of just say no, we're going from equality.
00:16:50 And I still want to continue touching on that particular topic.
00:16:53 But as you brought up, you know, where men face in terms of in terms of any criminal system, men, men, men have a very unfair.
00:17:06 I'm not saying that, you know, I want to see more women in prison. Right.
00:17:09 It's an unfair. And we talk about even when it comes to domestic violence.
00:17:13 So I think this is a good segue to say, OK, let's take a break. And when we come back, let's let's really focus on that aspect of just saying no.
00:17:20 But we're not giving up on the whole conversation about equality for men and women.
00:17:38 Welcome back to Manhood. Now, the conversation we started about equality between men and women, and we referenced Jordan Peterson's research on women being agreeable in the workplace and that they should be a little more assertive in asking for what they want or at least even saying no.
00:17:55 So in that stead, we moving forward a little bit to the just say no part of it, but we want to close off that equality aspect of it, understanding exactly what we mean when we say equality versus between men and women.
00:18:12 Now, my my thing is, is that because we are humans, things may not always be equal.
00:18:20 And sometimes equality is based on our perception. Right.
00:18:24 Now, we could have some numbers with it. But if we go in straight workplace, I remember your reference about women disproportionately paid less than men.
00:18:35 That's something you could measure. But as the example you gave in terms of the place you would, you know, we wasn't too sure exactly what caused it.
00:18:44 So there may be some other factors. Tell me what you think.
00:18:50 So one, I think that's the reason why, you know, I'm going to stand by that. But as it relates to when I think about equality in relation in the context of men and women, I really see it as more of women and both men having the ability to choose what they want to do.
00:19:10 Right. And I think that's really the meat and potatoes of, I guess, like the feminist movement.
00:19:17 So it's not in my opinion, it's not really a measure of does the man have this and as a woman have this and is it 50/50?
00:19:25 But to me, in my opinion, it's OK, so the woman, she can make a choice.
00:19:29 She can make a choice to say, I want to work or maybe I don't want to. I want to get married. I want to have kids. I don't want to have kids.
00:19:36 And, you know, because we have to we have to look at the history as well. Right.
00:19:40 It wasn't only up until a few couple of years ago where women were able to work or even were able to have their own bank accounts. Right.
00:19:48 And that's very recently. So I think in for me and my perception of equality is everyone really having the freedom to choose.
00:19:59 So we go down the road. I mean, we've discussed a couple of things on manhood and, you know, from masculine energy to toxic masculinity to I mean, I myself was just about to do it.
00:20:10 Mansplaining. And I asked myself, is it that in every environment, because, you know, have you ever experienced where or a situation or had girlfriends or any colleagues at all
00:20:24 where they've actually said to you that this person got the job because they were male?
00:20:30 Like, where does it come from that there's an assumption that the person got the job because they were male?
00:20:36 Is it because it's a male dominated environment? I don't think it's a subject.
00:20:39 I think data shows that data clearly shows that women are paid less than men in certain industries.
00:20:46 I know, like, you know, within recent times that that scale has been tipped a bit.
00:20:51 But we're not talking about economies of scale, I'm talking about position.
00:20:54 So let's start with position first. In terms of CEOs, I mean, is it in FTSE, for example, I think seven of the top those companies in Europe have females as the head.
00:21:06 So are we are you speaking like I'm asking you to pick your poison?
00:21:11 Are you speaking about position or are we talking about pay or are we talking about position and pay?
00:21:17 Well, I think I think they're both related to some sense, right, because the higher position you are in, the higher that you're paid.
00:21:25 But if you were to think of it in the context of Trinidad, and again, I could be biased in my thinking,
00:21:30 but I have been in the social service field for a very long time and I've seen, you know, my job is to interact with families on a daily basis.
00:21:41 And I see I see disparity. I see it very much. And I you know, it would be wrong of me to come on and say it doesn't exist.
00:21:48 So maybe my situation is a one off.
00:21:51 You want to say, well, I'm going to jump in it because, again, what I was trying to do.
00:21:54 And again, it's not an opinion. I'm not chastising you or trying to get a particular get you to sweat.
00:21:59 Thanks for not chastising me, Robert.
00:22:03 It's what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get a clear understanding to those who are listening as to what is the position for us to then have a further discussion about.
00:22:12 So when you say position and pay, I'm saying is it that, you know, is it that they're not seeing enough CEOs?
00:22:17 Because when you see it, talk about work as a social worker, that's in a relationship.
00:22:20 But something that we want to talk about a bit further in this episode of Manhood or this conversation of Manhood.
00:22:26 But I'm talking about the workplace because at home it's something different where the man might say, OK, well, I have to go.
00:22:31 The woman has to stay home. Right. That's it. We're going to get to that.
00:22:36 I'm talking about in the workplace, because if we're talking about economies of scale, for example, I always remember World Cup.
00:22:44 The football team, the US football team had advocated for higher pay or equal pay with men.
00:22:52 Right. I see that as ludicrous. And I'm going to say that that's my opinion.
00:22:56 And the reason for that is it's typically down to economies of scale.
00:23:00 And it's the same reason I would say that footballers like Messi, etc., deserve the pay that they're going to get.
00:23:05 Because if the football, if men's football is bringing, say, hundreds of billions of dollars, right, the two arguments say, one, who am I?
00:23:15 What am I getting the money from the clubs, etc., is to come and see this footballer.
00:23:19 So if it's for this footballer and I'm seeing these quality of footballers, then that footballer should get the money, not the management.
00:23:26 Right. And the same thing with regards to females.
00:23:29 If more men or in terms of sponsors, the game is watched more by in terms of men's World Cup brings in more money, then they get economies of scale.
00:23:42 They get paid more. If women's football does the same, then by all means, economies of scale pay them equally.
00:23:50 But that's not the case. So to say you want more means somebody's somebody's busing.
00:23:56 So I want to go ahead and answer. Right. So I'll put up to answer.
00:23:59 So what I'm going to watch Shriners speaking about and I'll comment on what you say.
00:24:03 Right. If it is really because I mean, I haven't done extensive research, but when we talk about the gender pay gap started in the States, right.
00:24:11 I started asking some businessmen here and doing small research, not too significant.
00:24:18 And some of the businessmen actually said, you know, if they could actually pay a woman less, it would be better for their business.
00:24:25 And they were showing me that it really do exist because a businessman, if I could have more employees and pay less, that's better for business.
00:24:31 Right. So they were showing me that it really don't exist. They have to pay everybody equally. Right.
00:24:38 Now, and that's what I'm asking for, empirical evidence. Yeah.
00:24:42 That's what I'm saying. No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't interview every businessman in Trinidad. Right.
00:24:47 So just some. Yeah. Right. And some of the business owners were women also. Right.
00:24:53 And they were saying that doesn't exist. There's no there's no way legally.
00:24:58 And I say legally because I'm not talking about a small parlor or something where you could pay somebody wherever you want.
00:25:03 I'm talking about a business place where you have to apply. There's a job spec. There's a there's no way that there is a position.
00:25:10 So as I say, social work, the salaries are thousand dollars. And because you're a woman, I could try to pay you nine hundred dollars.
00:25:16 There's no way that that exists empirically thus far. Right. Again, I didn't say I interview every business space. Right.
00:25:23 And then coming to what you're saying, I agree with you about bringing in money, because let's just say male or female,
00:25:31 because there are some female athletes that might want to see more than male athletes.
00:25:35 They should get more money in that field because it's based on the club paying them is based on how much money they're bringing in.
00:25:41 I could even give a good example. When we think about football, we think of Messi, we think about Ronaldo. Right.
00:25:47 Who is the best female footballer? I have no idea. But you know that because of your profession.
00:25:53 Most people do even know that. So why should she even be paid more?
00:25:57 Because nobody even wants to go and see you play. If you understand what I'm saying. So I agree with the equality.
00:26:02 If you're popular and everybody want to come and see you, take the money. Whether you're a boxer, whether it is.
00:26:07 Right. That's the sports arena. And with the business arena, I don't know anywhere where there's a job spec.
00:26:14 It seems there's a pay amount. And because you're a woman, I could pay you less.
00:26:19 But sorry, but I'm not even going to ask you initially, do I? Because we talk inequality. Right.
00:26:25 You said that you brought it to yourself. You put that personal example inside of there where you say you was in some job.
00:26:31 Right. And you and the guy. And you said that you only have just about equal qualifications.
00:26:38 Right. So is it that is the exact same thing? Yes or no. But even though you might have the same qualifications,
00:26:44 where you are putting the same amount of work, like the same output was coming from both of you.
00:26:50 No, but we got recently hired. So that's not, you know, so there would be no measure of whether or not.
00:26:57 Okay, so it's like you said that from the start, he was going to get more and you were going to get less.
00:27:02 Which I think is just ingrained bias. But yeah, this is probably not the audience to argue that.
00:27:08 And for me, and that's based on what you answered what I was saying earlier, where it's just that's basically bias.
00:27:14 It doesn't need to be gender based or anything like that. Because I can see for myself as well.
00:27:18 Recently, I did a job and my female counterpart, she's given more than me.
00:27:25 And I actually put more energy and more vibes to the event. And I put up more, but it's like, whatever.
00:27:32 I mean, and that's simply because she was a woman.
00:27:35 No, I just think that's because the organizers deemed her more valuable or the organizers see that because she may have this background,
00:27:44 maybe she could get this. But I never thought to myself because she's a woman, they decide to give her more because this or because that.
00:27:51 It's just because to me, it's not always about just the gender or the sex or anything like that.
00:27:58 But the person that is doing the hiring or the person that is in charge and as I said, bias, because everybody has it or what they believe or their belief.
00:28:06 Right. So sometimes it all just boils down to people. Right.
00:28:10 And what people think or they want to operate or they want to run life or run their business.
00:28:15 Because you just said the businessman simply said if he could, he would. Maybe rightly so.
00:28:21 Who's to say? If he could get, if he could pay employees less just because a woman, that's better for business for him.
00:28:26 Because even like in a simple variety store, in a simple variety store where everybody could get any same minimum wage,
00:28:33 I could tell you that that guy inside is going to be doing all the heavy lifting.
00:28:37 Every time there's a boxer move, he's going to get called to move the box and he's pumping.
00:28:42 He's not going in the gym or nobody, he's looking ripped just from the work.
00:28:45 All right. And all these girls, all these women may be doing any job as wiping on the shelf.
00:28:50 Yeah, yeah. I definitely, I think men are expected to do more manually than women.
00:28:58 Well then they should be expected to be paid more.
00:29:00 My hours sprite speak up now.
00:29:02 Good thing the mics and we have the audio to pump it up.
00:29:06 I want to again, you know, I always try to get an understanding of where we're coming from.
00:29:13 We're having a good conversation here. And what it comes down to is fair is fair.
00:29:18 I would say to you that I totally, I totally understand where you're coming from, Shirin.
00:29:26 I would also say that maybe sometimes it comes down to the interview because whether it's male or female,
00:29:32 even though you have the same qualifications or you may have better qualifications,
00:29:36 how was the interview conducted?
00:29:38 What did that person get from that person that might be more fitting to the particular role?
00:29:43 And they feel they can get more, not just out of the specific role, but in terms of the ad value.
00:29:49 Having said that, I would say some of the most powerful women I know, or let me rephrase that,
00:29:58 some of the most powerful people I know in Trinidad and Tobago are female.
00:30:02 Let's use Anselma Carl and Guardian Media.
00:30:04 Some of the most powerful members of Anselma Carl are all female.
00:30:08 The highest positions in Guardian Media all are female.
00:30:14 And they're not put there because they're female.
00:30:18 They're put there because they're the best person for the job.
00:30:20 And I can tell you they go toe-to-toe with the men on all fields and very educated.
00:30:27 Well, I don't think I argued that women are not in powerful positions within Trinidad and Tobago.
00:30:34 I think that they are.
00:30:35 And I think that that speaks a lot about our culture and how we see women and how we view women.
00:30:43 But if I was to really pull that, again, that's within a certain space, right, like within a corporate space, within this space,
00:30:52 you see how women are regarded.
00:30:55 But if we were to look at it from violence against women, maybe, right, and I don't mean to come off topic or anything,
00:31:04 but if you were to look at it as violence against women, right,
00:31:06 we see where women are treated more unfairly in these kind of circumstances and these things.
00:31:15 So even if we are to say, OK, but you know what, it have all these female CEOs out here.
00:31:21 So that must mean that as a society, we love women and we're not biased towards women.
00:31:29 I think we'd be wrong in saying that because, you know, the data does show that women do experience a lot more violence against them.
00:31:38 And I think just a lot more unfair circumstances.
00:31:41 And again, this could just basically be from my own experience.
00:31:45 And again, it's biased because of my job. Right.
00:31:47 So this is what I see every day. So it's going to be what I think.
00:31:52 So I do want to put that out there as well.
00:31:55 But again, I want us to be very careful in not making the conversation, well, we have all these CEOs and all these these female leaders.
00:32:05 So that must mean that women are doing better than men.
00:32:09 Not at all. You're right, because I mean, one of the things that even when you mentioned about gender based violence,
00:32:15 that, you know, one in three, I think it's in Trinidad, that, you know, men being a more dominant force physically,
00:32:24 you will certainly have that over women.
00:32:27 But what about there's also the data that shows the highest, the higher, the higher of the two in terms of gender to the suicide rate are males.
00:32:35 Yeah, that's because males don't have that venue, you know, that that avenue to to to see what they feel or if they themselves are being abused because there are other forms besides physical.
00:32:45 You know, there's mental, there's this financial. Well, I think the lack of mental health within in spaces normally occupied by men and the discussion of mental health is a huge disservice to men.
00:32:58 And definitely something that I advocate for. So I just want to before we go to a break, you know, just again,
00:33:04 just to put it into context that we're not in any way saying that women are undeserving of equality and in terms of even equity in pay.
00:33:14 It's just a matter of how you position yourself. And we know we need to do better.
00:33:20 We focused on mansplaining and the whole reason for that topic, for example, was to identify that men, you know, call men out on this.
00:33:27 You know, we do it, identify it. And when you know, as a behavior change since then, since the mansplaining episode, do you feel like I don't know, maybe, you know, if we touched one, you know, I'm not going to be able to choose.
00:33:40 The yours? The mine? Yeah. OK. I would certainly say, yeah, you know, like for me, a lot as I as I start off the show, you know, you go in there with a certain subject.
00:33:51 You've done a bit of research and then you think, OK, well, I know I'm going to lead this conversation and I usually would leave it.
00:33:57 And then during the conversation, you realize, wow, you know, I've gotten pause for thought.
00:34:02 And then by the end of it, there's always nuggets and there's always that, you know, that, you know, where I reflect.
00:34:11 And I think, you know, I could make a change and you have a better understanding, even more than, you know, charge APT of things like mansplaining and toxic masculinity and masculine energy.
00:34:24 So because the thing is, is not we not fight. And that's sometimes where it gets skewed to me.
00:34:33 It's not it's not men fighting against women, because if there are disparities on both ends, then we find the solutions will raise society in general.
00:34:42 So why ask somebody the evidence? Because if women are really getting less than men, there's something that should be fixed.
00:34:50 If men do more work than women and not getting paid, then that's something that should be fixed.
00:34:55 Right. For all of us, all of us to rise. So that's why even when questioning, because I want to make sure, because even in my own, because all of us have a bias, right, that is human.
00:35:05 Right. And that bias, of course, is not based on evidence.
00:35:09 Most times it's based on life experiences, which could be evidence in some realms.
00:35:14 But let's say it's not statistical evidence. So everybody have a bias.
00:35:18 We have to be able to cut through that bias and see the truth of things.
00:35:21 And that's what I really want. Yes, I enjoy the banter. Right.
00:35:25 But I mean, in terms of what matters about us, is men being better in general?
00:35:29 Of course, if we be better, the women around us better, our children, etc., etc.
00:35:34 So I just add in that. Perfect. Perfect answer.
00:35:37 And that's pretty much what we want to get at, because we can get into sport, for example, if you really want to.
00:35:44 If women want equality across the board and not being very specific, which you are, then you can say, OK, well, why isn't Shelley-Anne Fraser-Price running when you say both?
00:35:54 You know, there are reasons for that. We're not going to get into the biology, but the fairness of as a human, unless it really is something that's associated with biology, there should be equality.
00:36:05 I wonder if I agree with equality, but if I really believe in it after talking about this. I don't know.
00:36:11 A hot topic there then becomes, how do women now feel about men seeing to themselves, now I'm a woman, and now entering your sport and taking control.
00:36:27 We're not supposed to go to a break, because that's a whole new topic.
00:36:30 That's a whole new topic, but yes, we take a short break.
00:36:33 So welcome back to the conversation, Robert.
00:36:46 Again, I want to say thank you for inviting me. It's been a very interesting conversation.
00:36:49 When you initially started, you talked about just saying no and kind of relating that to Jordan Peterson and women just saying no within the workplace and advocating for themselves.
00:37:01 When I think of just saying no within the context of our society and especially our generation and of course my job as well, I think of just saying no in terms of male-female, well I shouldn't say male-female relationships, relationships in itself, and violence, sexual violence.
00:37:20 That's just what comes to me because of, again, what I do for a living.
00:37:24 So just saying no and what that means, right?
00:37:29 And we can empower women, and even in my discussions that I've had on other forums, I always say, especially to young women, to just say no.
00:37:40 If you don't like something, if you don't like a guy, say no.
00:37:43 If he's like, let's go out, let's go out, or let's take a drink.
00:37:45 There's this thing that happens very, very often.
00:37:48 I shouldn't say here, I think it just happens.
00:37:51 Where there's such a pressure to drink, right?
00:37:55 Especially for women in social situations.
00:37:58 And I've been in so many social situations where you want a drink?
00:38:01 No, I'm all right.
00:38:02 Nah, you gotta take a drink, you gotta take a drink, right?
00:38:04 And at what point is, even if I'm empowering a woman to just say no, that a man is hearing that no?
00:38:13 Because I could tell a woman just say no, just say no, but if men are not hearing the no, then what happens, right?
00:38:20 So I really want to kind of delve into that and what just say no means to you and/or you.
00:38:28 And are you hearing when a woman say just say no?
00:38:31 Or does just say no mean, "Oh gosh, oh gosh, come now, come now, come now," you know?
00:38:37 And that happens. It happens so very often.
00:38:40 All right. I'll jump in.
00:38:43 One is, I agree with telling people in general just say no.
00:38:48 I don't know statistically if women are pressured more than men to take a drink.
00:38:52 To me, let's say Trinidad, let's use Trinidad alone.
00:38:55 I think everybody kind of pressured.
00:38:57 I remember when I was younger and I didn't really want to drink, right?
00:39:00 I grew up religious, right?
00:39:02 And I know not to take a drink.
00:39:04 But God, you can't say a thing, you know, even though I wasn't 18 yet.
00:39:09 Men, I think, and I saw many men get under that pressure.
00:39:12 So I'm not sure if it's a female-only thing.
00:39:14 I think you keep discarding every point that I bring up.
00:39:18 A little bit on purpose.
00:39:20 Well, it's not really--I don't think it's--why?
00:39:22 Why do you think you should explore that within yourself?
00:39:24 Let me tell you why. Because one--
00:39:26 Because you don't think it's valid in me saying that?
00:39:28 No, no, no. If we go in with the stats and what you were saying before,
00:39:31 if I know for sure female are disproportionate with something,
00:39:35 I want to hear about it so we can improve it.
00:39:37 Women are raped way more than men.
00:39:39 Right, we shouldn't rape, yes, no?
00:39:41 We're talking about drinking, right?
00:39:43 No, but you're saying disproportionately affected, right?
00:39:48 Yeah, because we're talking about pressure to drink.
00:39:51 That's the topic we're staying on, pressure to drink.
00:39:53 But that was an example, and that's not the topic.
00:39:55 The topic is a woman saying no and a man hearing them say no.
00:39:59 So that was just an example of the bigger topic, in my opinion.
00:40:02 So I'll start from there and then--
00:40:04 Yeah, are men hearing women when they say just say no?
00:40:08 Okay, I'll segue into that.
00:40:10 The thing is that I think and I can see I saw with some men
00:40:16 is that sometimes you don't hear the no, right?
00:40:20 Because you want what you want, right?
00:40:22 So if we're going straight from a man-woman point of view,
00:40:25 I'm not saying all men or some men, right?
00:40:27 Let me just say I have seen--
00:40:29 In your experience.
00:40:31 They want what they want.
00:40:33 I've seen men do it.
00:40:35 Even men in my family, they go to a store and they have a female clerk
00:40:39 and she's not smiling, and she has to smile for him, right?
00:40:43 Now, I always thought something was wrong with that
00:40:46 because if a person feels the smile--
00:40:48 I like good service.
00:40:50 I want a smile, but at the same time I can't force a smile.
00:40:53 So there goes something small into the bigger things.
00:40:56 Some men want--
00:40:58 See, Luisa, it's with some men.
00:41:00 I'm not biased with it.
00:41:02 Some men would want a woman to react to them a certain way,
00:41:05 and if she doesn't, he would force it, right?
00:41:08 I can see that, whether it's forced to the point of sexual violation
00:41:12 or even forced--
00:41:14 Rape, not sexual violation. That's not a thing.
00:41:16 What is sexual violation?
00:41:18 I didn't read you rape yet.
00:41:20 What is sexual violation to you in differentiating between rape and sexual violation?
00:41:24 Tell me.
00:41:26 I was first in terms of speech.
00:41:28 If you touch it and it will stick it in, so that's violation as opposed to rape?
00:41:31 I'm just wondering.
00:41:33 No, I'm interested now because I would have known the disconnect to me.
00:41:37 I would have thought rape is actual intercourse or penetration.
00:41:40 But are you saying that there's one sense--
00:41:42 No, but I mean that--
00:41:44 So when you say sexual violation, right?
00:41:46 If you were to say--
00:41:48 Let's say sexual assault.
00:41:50 So it's not rape, but it may be sexual assault,
00:41:52 or it may be some kind of criminality.
00:41:56 It's not a sexual violation.
00:41:58 You're not going to get arrested for sexual violation.
00:42:00 No woman is going to say you sexually violated.
00:42:02 I mean, they could.
00:42:04 Before you reach the point of breaking the law, right?
00:42:07 Because I've seen some men put their arms around women, right?
00:42:11 And you could see the woman uncomfortable, but that's what he wants.
00:42:14 So if you're going to call it sexual, it's some sort of violation
00:42:17 because it's the person that you're touching them.
00:42:20 And I've seen that, and I've seen men because they want their way.
00:42:23 So I'm saying it does exist, right?
00:42:25 And it's something that we should speak about.
00:42:27 Why do you think men have this persistent kind of attitude
00:42:34 when it comes to getting what they want from women?
00:42:37 I'll use two factors. It could be more, right?
00:42:40 But I'll use two factors from what I've seen.
00:42:42 Because I've had female clients who came to me
00:42:46 because they wanted to be more assertive in situations, right?
00:42:49 And because of the type of work I do, I actually put them in the field
00:42:53 to see how they operate with men
00:42:55 so I could give them a better handle in terms of how to do things.
00:42:58 So one is her confidence was low, right?
00:43:02 And some men pick up on that.
00:43:04 So they see an opportunity where they could take advantage of a situation.
00:43:07 So one, taking advantage.
00:43:09 Two, I've seen some men, because of ego--
00:43:11 now ego sometimes is low self-esteem, so your self-esteem low.
00:43:15 So let me say a car use lyrics, or you're not confident in your looks,
00:43:19 or maybe your possessions, or whatever you think, to get a female.
00:43:22 So then you become forceful to take what you want because of low self-esteem.
00:43:27 And then on another realm, sometimes misinformation.
00:43:30 Because some of us men were taught you have to be persistent.
00:43:34 If you're persistent, you'll get through.
00:43:36 That's part of the methodology. You need to be persistent.
00:43:39 So even if you're getting clear signs that the woman may be not interested
00:43:43 or do like you, if you are persistent, you'll get through.
00:43:47 But sometimes you want to say, "And I want to bring Karen in
00:43:50 because I noticed we haven't introduced him, Karen, aka Chyney.
00:43:54 Thank you for joining us."
00:43:56 We also like to thank Tadi for being part of the first couple of segments.
00:44:03 But you see it all the time where you talk to friends,
00:44:08 and the woman says it all the time, "This man was really persistent.
00:44:11 I tell him no about seven, eight times.
00:44:13 I know happily married, three, four children."
00:44:15 Yeah, but persistent is that persistence and that trustiness.
00:44:18 Right, right.
00:44:20 Persistence is cool. I could ask--I mean, I just say it.
00:44:22 I could ask a girl out on a date.
00:44:24 I just send you DMs and just message you,
00:44:26 and you blank me and blank me and blank me and blank me and blank me.
00:44:29 That's different from me--
00:44:31 Wrapping you up in a party.
00:44:33 Wrapping you up in a party and running you down
00:44:35 and standing behind your whole party, two people behind you watching.
00:44:38 All right, cool. Now time to go and make money.
00:44:41 Trustiness is different from persistence.
00:44:43 Persistence is I could be very nice and formal.
00:44:45 "Hi, Shireen. Let's go to dinner."
00:44:48 "Oh, you know, tonight's bad, okay?"
00:44:50 Keep on the accent.
00:44:52 "Tonight's bad, okay? All right, cool."
00:44:54 Next Thursday I message her again and then so forth and so forth
00:44:57 until she say, "All right, you know what?
00:45:00 He ain't coming across the wrong way,
00:45:02 but all right, let me see what's going on this Thursday.
00:45:04 I'll go out with him."
00:45:06 That is where the difference is in trustiness and persistence.
00:45:09 But women want bad men.
00:45:11 You know what I mean?
00:45:13 [interposing voices]
00:45:15 It's not bad men or no?
00:45:17 What do women want?
00:45:19 Robert, you're now saying it, so you obviously can talk on behalf of the men.
00:45:25 Since using my boy, Jordan Peterson,
00:45:27 according to Jordan Peterson research, right,
00:45:29 some of his research is that--
00:45:31 and we could go both men and women,
00:45:33 because some men want bad girls, too, right?
00:45:35 It's not necessarily bad.
00:45:37 What bad man and bad girl have is a certain level of assertiveness
00:45:42 and a certain level of freedom that a lot of us crave.
00:45:46 So a bad man or a bad girl really care about the rules,
00:45:49 and they are more themselves than people who are agreeable
00:45:52 or people who not bad, they kind of stay to the rules,
00:45:56 but they really want a little more freedom,
00:45:58 so they're attracted to the--
00:46:00 according to the research, according to that research,
00:46:02 they crave the freedom that that person, man or woman, exhibits.
00:46:05 What do you think, Karen?
00:46:07 [laughter]
00:46:11 Shereen, what do you think?
00:46:14 I like you with trustiness.
00:46:16 I do like you with trustiness.
00:46:18 Again, I understand what you're saying in terms of differentiating between the--
00:46:22 but again, that's individual preference, right?
00:46:25 But if we were to really talk about it on a more general aspect of--
00:46:30 again, and I want to go back to empowering a woman to just say no
00:46:34 and then a man not hearing it, right?
00:46:37 So I'm going to put this question out for anybody.
00:46:40 I'm not looking at him in particular, Robert.
00:46:43 [laughter]
00:46:45 But how many times or have you guys ever been in a situation where--
00:46:50 and I'm going to say a sexual situation--
00:46:52 where a woman has said no and you've continued because you didn't hear that no, right?
00:46:59 And let's say that was to happen.
00:47:01 You didn't hear the no.
00:47:02 She tell you no, you didn't hear the no, you'll have sex.
00:47:05 In your perception, you'll have sex, right?
00:47:09 She goes to the police and reports she was raped, and you're like, wait, what?
00:47:14 No, we just had sex.
00:47:16 And then her report to the police is, yeah, but I told him no, I told him no, I told him no, right?
00:47:22 So now the police is asking you, did she tell you no?
00:47:25 And you sit on there and you say, oh, shit, you know what?
00:47:28 She really tell me no.
00:47:30 So I'm saying that because this is a very likely situation that could happen,
00:47:36 and I'm not saying this to scare men or anything, but, you know--
00:47:40 Don't be scared because when we had that discussion, you would have never known.
00:47:45 You thought listening in the act of a woman saying no is like being choked, she's part of the thing.
00:47:49 Correct, correct.
00:47:50 I got inside there already.
00:47:52 Up until she show up to the police station the next day and says she tell you no,
00:47:55 and you can't tell--in your head you might not want to admit it because you don't want to admit rape or something like that,
00:48:01 but in your head, when you sit at home, you're saying, you know what, the girl really told me no.
00:48:06 So it's really a matter, in my opinion, of introducing the idea of the conversation of consent and what that is.
00:48:14 But, again, I don't know if men are ready to do that because it's much easier for you to just go and go
00:48:20 until a girl gives in as opposed to would you--can I have sex with you, can I kiss you, you know what I mean?
00:48:27 I don't want a man who's beautiful.
00:48:31 But also to just cover yourself as a man, right?
00:48:36 But what about the other way around as we talk about sex?
00:48:38 You go ahead.
00:48:39 A woman and a--you're on top of a man, and the man says, hey, no, no, I got all that.
00:48:46 Actually, the legs do that.
00:48:48 You understand?
00:48:49 You know when men do that, the legs grip and you're holding your suit.
00:48:53 How much men make sure that a woman that they're doing it to me, I'm saying no.
00:48:59 And the woman know--the woman know too because you get to that point of when you start, you can't--
00:49:05 Well, then I would advise that person to go to the police and make a report against rape.
00:49:10 We mean really.
00:49:11 I know.
00:49:12 But that's something that could really happen.
00:49:16 And the only way the country is going to change--
00:49:19 Let me throw something out, right?
00:49:21 And most--a lot of people disagree with me with this, but thus far I've seen this to be true.
00:49:27 Men, right, we men, everything is our fault, right?
00:49:32 Hear my--hear my--hear my--everything is our fault.
00:49:35 We are responsible for everything.
00:49:37 We are responsible for head in society.
00:49:39 We are responsible for when everything--
00:49:41 Who gave you the basis of head in society?
00:49:44 I told you they could disagree with me.
00:49:46 Just know, just know.
00:49:48 Hear, hear, so because from everything I'm hearing, right?
00:49:51 I'm here with the head in society.
00:49:53 Even with sex, we responsible to make sure nothing goes wrong.
00:49:58 Sex is a problem.
00:49:59 Let me use what I'm sure you're saying, right?
00:50:02 Right?
00:50:03 And so I throw that out because even with the no, I think--and I think a man should be cognizant during sex to make sure that the woman enjoying herself, next thing, something going on, et cetera.
00:50:16 But I've never heard anybody say the opposite, but let me go with that, right?
00:50:21 Let me go with that.
00:50:22 And then research, so this is not me saying this, research shows that even in sex, a woman would prefer the man take off her clothes and she take off her own clothes because he has to be the person doing it.
00:50:33 Who did this research?
00:50:34 Where you get that from?
00:50:35 We could--we could--
00:50:36 [laughter]
00:50:37 I think Jordan Peterson had something--something about that, right?
00:50:40 You agree?
00:50:41 I know, let's--
00:50:42 I want to take off my own clothes, but again, this is not the topic of conversation.
00:50:45 No, let me go back from the start.
00:50:46 This is not--
00:50:47 What I throw out, what I throw out is that everything is a man's fault.
00:50:50 I throw that out because based on what I hear and because even consent, if we go to some of the longitudinal study thus far from places where the consent is actually low, right?
00:50:59 The--even women say that lame, if you understand what I'm saying, they don't want a man to come to ask consent, they want a man to finesse them, they want to et cetera, et cetera.
00:51:08 I'm going to have to hold this against her.
00:51:10 I think what you said for the longitudinal, to me, kind of--kind of situational because I don't think in countries that are around 100 years or 50 years yet.
00:51:18 But even in some of those cases, so I'm not saying anything wrong with consent.
00:51:22 I--I--I think no man should violate a woman in any way.
00:51:25 Do you think a man should receive consent before having sex with a woman?
00:51:29 Of course.
00:51:30 Oh, yeah.
00:51:31 Without a doubt.
00:51:32 Anybody should have consent.
00:51:33 So why are there so many instances where I'm saying no and I'm not just saying me personally, but I'm just saying like a woman is saying no and there's this culture of persistence.
00:51:44 So you--are you saying that--
00:51:46 Is there not a culture of persistence? Do you agree?
00:51:48 I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway.
00:51:50 You--that is--I don't know what that was saying, what kind of man you're dealing with, but what I'm saying is--is if you blank him already and you continue and you continue--
00:51:59 if he bears you and he blanks you and you continue and continue and continue, then that's your choice to get up and get out of there because it's either you go and let him do it or you're that scared that something will happen that you--
00:52:09 Right. I love that you say that because--right. So is it--right.
00:52:13 So now we're in a situation where we're in the bed, I'm saying no, I'm saying no, and he keeps going, right?
00:52:18 And a woman--
00:52:20 He can pick up his hankies and leave, though.
00:52:21 Right. But not all women can do that, right?
00:52:23 Not all people could do that.
00:52:25 And then if we were to talk about that, we'd have to look at the imbalance of power, right?
00:52:29 So a man is usually the one who is in that relationship, the person in power, be it physically, be it emotionally, be it mentally.
00:52:37 Everything is all important. Remember I said that.
00:52:39 The man--no, but you have to discuss the imbalance of power when you're discussing something like this, right?
00:52:46 But you're not giving further clarity. So I'm saying to you, if you're in the police station, let's go back to that example of you.
00:52:54 So you're in the police station the day after, and the police officer asks you, did she or did she not say no?
00:53:01 Now, there are moments of your deep trust, literally and figuratively, and you are--you know, your eyes roll back and you're at it, whatever the position is, right?
00:53:12 And she says no. There's a big difference to, as Chiny pointed out, you pick up yourself and you try to move, and he holds you.
00:53:22 Now that he holds you, then he would know at that point that, listen, I am--in many ways, you're now very conscious of a physical action of she's trying to fight and get away, and you're holding this woman down.
00:53:32 So you're saying that there should be different levels of no?
00:53:37 No, no, I'm not saying--
00:53:38 Because we can't have a segment saying just say no, and then any segment saying, well, she didn't really say no.
00:53:47 He's not saying anything yet.
00:53:49 What I'm trying to get at is that when I first heard that once a woman says no, it's rape, right, I'm seeing that at that point, I'm seeing that--look at the man's perspective at that point,
00:54:03 that he might not have heard, he might not think she's serious, you know, it's like, hey, we've come home here, we've reached this point, and we're doing it.
00:54:11 But if she's saying--
00:54:12 But then that's the discussion right there, that you just said that she might not think he's serious, and I think it's the responsibility of the man to now learn--
00:54:21 Remember what I was saying.
00:54:22 --that when a woman says no, she's serious.
00:54:25 So she's saying--
00:54:26 I can't say no--
00:54:27 She's saying no, and she's still so.
00:54:28 --and you say--
00:54:29 And she's still getting through with it.
00:54:30 Yes, that is very possible.
00:54:32 --and then you're making a move to say no and some sort of--
00:54:35 Because again, men are usually in a more dominant position, so--
00:54:39 But if you--
00:54:40 --they're in a position--
00:54:41 --physically--
00:54:42 So wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:54:44 So look at my side, look at yours, like, he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, what's the war, right?
00:54:48 Me and you need bedroom war, ain't I?
00:54:50 Yeah.
00:54:51 You saying, wait, boy, I could take you.
00:54:53 I could take you.
00:54:54 Let me hold you down quick, and then get out it.
00:54:58 You know, what you mean?
00:54:59 What you mean?
00:55:00 Like, for instance, I just said this is probably a bad example.
00:55:03 Which I even have.
00:55:04 [LAUGHTER]
00:55:05 This is a bad example, but hold on, right?
00:55:07 Like, it's halftime and party and things.
00:55:09 Like, I should be going and calling for sex.
00:55:11 You know, I'm going to call the coast guard, and then we're going on a cruise, right?
00:55:14 And I'm ticking, and I'm saying, you know, I'm here with whoever it may be, and they're not saying me,
00:55:19 because what ticking going to do?
00:55:21 Ticking going to watch me and say, dog, look at this food, and just whine back on me,
00:55:24 and I carry nothing, and I don't know.
00:55:26 Oh, gosh, sis.
00:55:27 I hear me little mama, like when little mama end up saying, oh, gosh, just come off the stage.
00:55:31 Just come off now.
00:55:32 I can do that.
00:55:33 Come on, come now.
00:55:34 You want to take the front, yeah?
00:55:35 Give me a ease up now, please.
00:55:36 And all right, cool, they whine back for a little 20.
00:55:39 You know what?
00:55:40 Whatever.
00:55:41 And then they'll go about their business, but I now get cruise, cruise, cruise rape.
00:55:46 No way, now you get violated.
00:55:48 Yeah, no, that's a violation.
00:55:49 I didn't want that to happen to me.
00:55:51 Then you should have, you should have, I'm sorry.
00:55:53 How?
00:55:54 How?
00:55:55 But I think that's the same argument, you know.
00:55:57 Yeah, but that's different.
00:55:58 You were saying that she should have leave, and she's saying that you should have move.
00:56:00 Receiving a whine in a party is different from--
00:56:02 No, what do you mean?
00:56:03 If I don't want it, I don't want it.
00:56:04 Yeah, but receiving a whine in a party--
00:56:05 Sure, you might set up--
00:56:06 No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:56:07 --a whine in a party, you know, take it upon themselves, grab everything, and they take it upon themselves.
00:56:14 But I want to bring it back into the context, because I really want people to understand where I'm coming from.
00:56:21 I'm saying to you that if you're in bed and you're no longer interested and you show no signs, based on you're saying the words--
00:56:29 That should be enough.
00:56:30 --right?
00:56:31 But if you're saying the word and you're saying no--
00:56:32 I argue that that's enough.
00:56:33 I'm not saying it isn't.
00:56:35 When a woman says no, it's no.
00:56:37 But I'm saying to you that women, again, must also take responsibility to understand that if you are in the throes of it and you no longer want it,
00:56:45 and you're not making any other gesture apart from saying no, how is it at that point where the man is thinking,
00:56:51 "Well, you consented up until this point, and are you really serious?
00:56:55 Like, have you ever been in a relationship where a woman says, 'Oh, no, I don't want any.
00:57:01 You sure you don't want any, babe? Yeah, I don't want any.'"
00:57:04 And then when you get it, half your plate gone, right?
00:57:07 So I'm just saying that a lot of women--
00:57:09 I don't know how you think you could compare food and sex, but in this context--
00:57:12 Because we're not talking about religious in the context of a one-night stand.
00:57:17 We could talk about--
00:57:19 So what do you think the awareness should be apart?
00:57:21 Because what I'm hearing is--
00:57:22 Some sort of move.
00:57:23 So just say no and punch him.
00:57:25 So that should be the name of the segment?
00:57:27 It could be just say no and maybe a prompt or something like a tune in your head or something that shows the man that--
00:57:34 So then why do we have to teach women to do something other than just say no?
00:57:40 Just say no plus something, because men--this is what I'm hearing--they're not capable of--
00:57:49 [interposing voices]
00:57:53 Let her finish.
00:57:54 Because that's what you're saying. Yes, it is.
00:57:56 You're saying that, okay, it can't be just the word no.
00:58:01 It has to be the word--
00:58:02 Let her finish.
00:58:03 You're saying it has to be the word no plus you need to move your head or you need to do this, right?
00:58:08 That's all I'm saying.
00:58:09 The idea, just say that.
00:58:11 So what I'm saying is why does it have to go from just say no plus do something else as opposed to the conversation continuing to stay,
00:58:20 "Man, you know what? She said no, so let it just be no."
00:58:24 Right?
00:58:25 But that's not what you ought to do.
00:58:26 But where you join this--
00:58:27 It can't be just say no. It's got to be just say no plus something else.
00:58:30 What I'm saying to you is hear me well.
00:58:34 Hear and listen.
00:58:35 I am saying to you that just say no. No is no regardless.
00:58:41 Right?
00:58:42 Make it very clear. No is no.
00:58:44 What I'm saying to you, just like in a job interview, some way to add value, I'm saying when you say no, if you are really saying no at that point,
00:58:52 it will be more in your favor to show more than just no.
00:58:59 Yeah, okay, but I'm literally saying no.
00:59:02 As opposed to no and turn it some sort of gesture that shows you are not hearing enough.
00:59:07 Let me jump in that way.
00:59:08 Just say no person action.
00:59:13 Just now.
00:59:14 Which we usually do in these conversations.
00:59:16 Just now, Robert, what he's saying is correct.
00:59:19 If a woman says no, no is no. Right?
00:59:22 Correct.
00:59:23 What he's saying about another gesture, I do quite agree with you with that.
00:59:27 Because I don't know what the next gesture is.
00:59:29 I'm going to tell a man now just say no and punch them.
00:59:32 Let me finish now.
00:59:35 You said before, because this is on camera, we can rewind and see.
00:59:40 You said that men have to be capable of understanding what a woman means.
00:59:45 Remember what I said when I was going back?
00:59:47 Just now.
00:59:48 But I'm saying no.
00:59:49 Just now.
00:59:50 You don't even need to be sure.
00:59:52 Yes, no, no.
00:59:53 What I'm saying is about men having the power and everything is our fault.
00:59:58 Men have a lot of responsibilities on us to understand what we mean and also what women mean.
01:00:04 Now, you can argue with me on this, but what you are saying is clearly that.
01:00:07 And I can show many examples of this.
01:00:09 That if you have power, with great power comes great responsibility.
01:00:14 And understanding sometimes the nuances of a woman might be a high learning curve.
01:00:20 And thus far, what I've seen is that is just the burden we are to carry, you know, about understanding.
01:00:26 Because you meet 10 different women, 10 different women, signals of no, yes, is 10 different things that you may have to understand.
01:00:34 Or else, based on what we're saying, then your ass is grass.
01:00:38 So understanding the language, right?
01:00:41 So today you learn Japanese, tomorrow you learn Chinese, tomorrow you learn African, tomorrow you learn things.
01:00:46 That's just the burden sometimes or the privilege or the power that we have to understand the responsibility that we have when we're dealing with women.
01:00:54 Yeah, I agree.
01:00:56 And I think also understanding the risk, right?
01:00:58 So in me saying this and me advising, I don't want to say advising, but me just having this discussion, it's to let you guys know that that is a very real possibility that, you know, you could be having sex with a woman and then she says no.
01:01:12 Next day, she in the police station saying she said no.
01:01:16 And it would be an actual fact that she did say no.
01:01:19 Even if we were to throw in, so let's say we threw in, you know, maybe drugs or alcohol with the Nemex, right?
01:01:24 Trinidad has a very big party culture and party scene.
01:01:28 I know I wasn't living in Trinidad then, but there was this, what was the drug?
01:01:33 What's the drug or drink that--
01:01:35 Molly?
01:01:36 No, it's Molly. But like back in the day, there was a drug that they would give Spanish fly, correct, right?
01:01:43 Well, it was a well-known--
01:01:44 It was a--
01:01:45 Spanish fly boy, well, it was good.
01:01:47 And it was a very well-known fact that if you give a woman Spanish fly, she becomes so intoxicated that you're able to have sex with her.
01:01:55 And it became someone--
01:01:56 Trustiness again.
01:01:57 Again, so but again, and so now seeing that that's the culture, right?
01:02:01 We all accept that that's what has happened within the past.
01:02:04 It's not the culture, but it has happened in the past.
01:02:06 It's a culture that happened. It's discussed almost as like common knowledge, right?
01:02:10 So we no longer have Spanish fly. So let's say now we have new drugs in, right?
01:02:14 So we have Molly, we have ecstasy, so now it's going to be translated into that.
01:02:18 So then the question becomes if a woman is high on Molly, high on some kind of ecstasy, or that she's drunk and she's saying no,
01:02:28 then what is the responsibility and/or the risk to a man in that situation?
01:02:33 And these are things that you, you know, as men, you just want to think about, right?
01:02:36 But Sherine, what happens in the police station and the man says, "I didn't hear her say no"?
01:02:42 Well, then you know--
01:02:43 But she's already started to say that she consented to sex, so they have that on record.
01:02:48 They consented to sex. So the question then is, well, did you hear her say no?
01:02:52 Because she's now saying she said no, but she's already agreed that she consented to sex.
01:02:56 Oh, how is she saying no and consented at the same time?
01:02:58 Because we are saying that during sex, the woman then says no.
01:03:03 So at any point she changes her mind, no is no, right?
01:03:06 And it's rape, and that's what men are hearing, and that's what's part of the scariness.
01:03:10 Now, if you're taking it forcefully from the start, then you know it's rape, right? It's obvious.
01:03:14 The surprising fact to hear is that during the act, if she says no during that point,
01:03:20 and there's no punch or there's no movement to get out of dodge, right?
01:03:24 That if she goes to the police station the next day, you're going to be in shock to then say to yourself,
01:03:32 "I don't understand. She consented."
01:03:34 Now, when they go to the police officer and you say, "Yeah, she said no," then they have you there for rape.
01:03:39 But what if you say, "I didn't hear her," but it's on record that she has said she consented?
01:03:45 Right, but it's still a matter, right?
01:03:46 So I guess it's up to the investigator to collect evidence,
01:03:51 and I guess it's maybe if the matter goes to the judge or the jury.
01:03:54 Whatever it is, she said she didn't hear.
01:03:56 But again, that's what due process of law is.
01:04:01 It's going to be your word against hers, and you guys go through whatever system.
01:04:05 Right, but that's the whole long run, but I just said, "I don't know. They might have cut this out or something."
01:04:11 But watch it like this, right?
01:04:12 Normally, she--I'm going to say that because this is not the kind of people I know.
01:04:16 I know a couple of people, you understand?
01:04:18 It's not even need to be that serious.
01:04:20 I guess woman equality, inequality, equality with men thing, you understand?
01:04:25 Like, he get some sex, you understand?
01:04:28 You know, the girl got a little choke out, a little hard slap, nothing wrong with that.
01:04:32 Cool. I don't know what I'm saying.
01:04:34 A little choke out, a little hard slap, cool, nothing wrong with that.
01:04:37 Some days later, he and the man--she and the soldier fall out, you understand?
01:04:41 And she just doesn't lie down, go to the police station and say, "Yeah, look, you raped me.
01:04:45 Look, hard slap, hard cuff." And in his head, he's thinking, "But wait now.
01:04:49 But no, we do this together. Look, I take some hard cuff too."
01:04:53 You understand?
01:04:54 And at that point, police want to take your word for it over him.
01:04:58 Right, but that was--
01:04:59 He's going to take a lock up and police want to come by your house and embarrass the man.
01:05:02 Well, and that was a discussion we were having earlier as well.
01:05:06 That is a plight that men have to deal with, right?
01:05:08 False allegations.
01:05:09 And again, it would be up to trusting the system.
01:05:12 Right, so when you say in the air, "Boy, man is persistent and thing and thing,"
01:05:16 that is the kind of man that must come around you or you who is wrong.
01:05:20 Because if I tell him, "Me no," or we lie down and bend our things,
01:05:23 "Oh, my God, my God, yeah, you know what? I'm just not into this."
01:05:26 All right, well, what? So I just be cool, useless, cool.
01:05:29 That's you, Chiny. That's you.
01:05:31 Well, right, that's how I think 9 out of 10 minutes.
01:05:34 That's not a bra.
01:05:35 And I think also it comes down to--we need to take a break and come back
01:05:39 because there's a lot in here, a lot of good discussion.
01:05:42 We just need to really bring it into focus as to what the message is.
01:05:46 We understand the message is very clear.
01:05:48 It's just saying no, and at any point a woman says no, it's no,
01:05:52 unless that's a part of your safe word.
01:05:56 And in doing that, it also comes down to your answer.
01:05:59 I think the type of man--because for me, being with a woman,
01:06:05 I want to--a big part of me is making sure that she's pleasured.
01:06:09 And if that's a huge part of me wanting to--that's where my ego comes in.
01:06:13 I want to make sure she's pleasured, she's had a good time,
01:06:16 and therefore if in that circumstance that's not happening,
01:06:19 then any form of no, whether it's said or it looks that way
01:06:25 or you're getting a particular vibration, I'm done.
01:06:28 If a form of being pleasured is forceful, then we'll do that too.
01:06:32 That's a different conversation.
01:06:35 That's one we could come back from the break with.
01:06:38 That's a good point, whether that's part of what they call "foray."
01:06:42 Those are all scenes that people like to enact.
01:06:45 Foray, all right, all right. I've never heard that before.
01:06:48 Part of your bed romantics. Take a short break.
01:06:52 [music]
01:06:56 [music]
01:07:04 Right, people, so welcome back to the Manhood Conversation.
01:07:08 Now we discuss many different topics between the dynamics between men and women.
01:07:13 Just say no, we talk about equality, and we talk about even asking for consent
01:07:20 and what constitutes rape, and in terms of people in the middle of the act of sex
01:07:26 that someone could say no, and you have to acquiesce to that
01:07:31 or else it could be considered rape.
01:07:33 We're trying to figure out exactly how we would know what no is.
01:07:37 We discuss no means no.
01:07:40 Just come in with some of those dynamics because I found some research from New York
01:07:45 where affirmative consent was actually implemented in law
01:07:50 and some of the dynamics surrounding it.
01:07:53 So I'll just read it quickly.
01:07:55 "Police and defense attorneys may no longer present the victim's lack of refusal during sex
01:08:01 as evidence of non-consent because they were saying that once you sign the document,"
01:08:08 now there's an actual document for affirmative consent,
01:08:11 where before two people have sex they actually have to sign something
01:08:15 saying that they both consented.
01:08:17 They're saying once they signed, neither person could refuse in the middle of sex.
01:08:23 Now this is important because it kind of even negates what we were talking about.
01:08:28 This is important for me because human dynamics are such a fluid thing
01:08:35 and really understanding when is no, what means no,
01:08:41 what are the norms of the dating culture, should I keep pursuing,
01:08:46 it really brings in the question, that gray area.
01:08:49 Now personally I say if somebody say no is no, whether it is male or female.
01:08:54 If somebody say no, they don't want to do something is no.
01:08:56 Also I think most times, and I could be wrong,
01:09:00 that you could feel the energy when somebody don't want to do something.
01:09:03 I say most times because again this human dynamics,
01:09:06 and as I was saying before, with us men we have the privilege
01:09:11 and the responsibility and the learning curve of figuring out
01:09:14 what every woman we interact with means in certain scenarios.
01:09:17 So I'm saying that we men, because we have power in certain scenarios,
01:09:23 we could be responsible with our power to ensure because even if a woman say
01:09:30 that she consent, yes she want to have sex with you, based on the law,
01:09:34 if in the middle of the sexual act she says no,
01:09:36 and she goes and report it, it could be considered rape.
01:09:40 So you know they say knowledge is power.
01:09:42 So understanding that this is the reality of things,
01:09:45 you could put it in your mind so that when you're in the dating scenario,
01:09:50 this is something to consider.
01:09:52 Now it might be a lot, but if this is the reality right now,
01:09:55 it's better to face reality so you could be able to navigate it in a healthy manner.
01:09:59 You could imagine, and I use the word "tiredness,"
01:10:03 a man will get in his head after hearing something like this,
01:10:06 imagine you in the middle of the act and a woman says no meaning,
01:10:09 it might touch another orifice or something might happen,
01:10:13 and you go no, no, no, and you just, in your head, no,
01:10:16 and you might start to pull back and all of a sudden there's floppy loppy,
01:10:19 you're done, you're not even interested again, because the anxiety,
01:10:25 you might be feeling at that point, any kind of thing,
01:10:28 she might just be no to that position or no, it hurts, or no, you're cheap,
01:10:32 and you just hear no and fly off like, okay, it could throw men off.
01:10:39 Yeah, I completely agree.
01:10:41 So women also have to know that if you say no,
01:10:44 and you're not saying no with a certain element of force,
01:10:47 so listen, I'm not saying you can't be overpowered,
01:10:49 I'm saying where no, the man might hear it, or no meaning,
01:10:53 the man might understand specifically where you're coming from.
01:10:56 No is no, and I'm not arguing with that, I'm just saying that if you know,
01:11:00 and you can be in a situation where the man,
01:11:04 you start to get a lot of paranoid men out there.
01:11:07 Well, can I just say, I think, Robert, I think it's interesting
01:11:12 that in a discussion about consensual sex and a woman saying no meaning,
01:11:20 indicating she no longer wants to have sex with this person,
01:11:23 and that could be for very different reasons,
01:11:25 that your concern is how the man thinks, how the man reacts to hearing no,
01:11:33 seems to be your concern as opposed to the state that the woman is in
01:11:39 that brings her to where she has to say no, right?
01:11:43 And I take your point, but this is manhood.
01:11:46 The whole aim of this show is to reach men and young men
01:11:51 and to give them advice and to let them know where they stand.
01:11:54 So it's not one concern over another.
01:11:57 Just saying no is no, and of course we want how we show up.
01:12:01 And I don't believe in domestic violence, I don't believe in abuse of women,
01:12:05 I don't believe in non-equality.
01:12:07 So I'm saying to you that what my concern is to be able to express to the young men
01:12:13 and men listening here, to be able to say, okay, well, I'm asking you as a female
01:12:17 to also reach out to women and let women understand, as we've done in shows,
01:12:21 the trigger points and what may, in your consideration, even if we're saying no
01:12:26 and even if we're saying that violence of any kind could never be accepted,
01:12:31 a woman should also know that, listen, it wouldn't go against you to understand triggers,
01:12:39 to understand that this is how you can assist.
01:12:43 So you should make your no a little more powerful.
01:12:49 A little more powerful so the man knows that--
01:12:51 So no, so then the term no means no, is that right?
01:13:00 Or no for you to hear.
01:13:02 So it's no means no but loud enough for the man to hear
01:13:06 and forceful enough for him to understand that you mean it.
01:13:10 So then it's not really no means no, it's no means no plus all these other factors.
01:13:14 And I just think it would be more beneficial to men if from you here,
01:13:19 no, to relieve yourself of any risk, of any kind of unwanted--
01:13:24 Just be paranoid.
01:13:25 I'm not saying just be paranoid, I'm just saying be careful
01:13:28 because this is what the reality is.
01:13:30 No, but that's how the game is, that's why everybody, this will apply to everybody,
01:13:34 that certain people are like, men are things to lose, though.
01:13:38 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
01:13:40 So if I think just say, "I'm somebody in the right mind,"
01:13:44 maybe like, you know what, before I get myself in a monkey pants,
01:13:47 let me just not be a part of that.
01:13:50 And then where do you draw the line?
01:13:52 You know, you spoke about choking or that sort of sexual plea.
01:13:57 Where do you draw the line?
01:13:58 Well, I think sexual proclivities, it's a different conversation in itself, right?
01:14:04 Don't we have time to talk about it?
01:14:07 I-- you know, again, I'm not a sex therapist,
01:14:11 and I don't feel like I have much to say on sex,
01:14:14 or that's probably a horrible thing to say, but I think that's different.
01:14:19 I think discussions about what you like in sex or even a check-in,
01:14:23 like, you know, do you like this, is this okay?
01:14:26 You can get verbal or nonverbal cues of whether or not you should continue
01:14:29 or not continue.
01:14:30 So there are cues?
01:14:31 I think there-- I'm not saying there isn't.
01:14:33 So there could be cues in "no," a cue to say "no off" or "no stop."
01:14:39 I'm just saying the cue is there.
01:14:41 Body language, right?
01:14:42 Body language.
01:14:43 If it is, you choke her, and then she has to slap out, and then--
01:14:47 What's a thing? Why are you calling it a thing?
01:14:49 I don't know.
01:14:50 What is that?
01:14:51 I don't know.
01:14:52 Oh, yeah, don't make me--
01:14:54 You talk, man, you talk.
01:14:56 You talk, you know, because we're--
01:14:57 I don't think you should--
01:14:58 If I--
01:14:59 Bad with a woman.
01:15:01 Bad with a woman and end up choking her and then she has a hard slap out,
01:15:07 and then next time around, you know, I look at her,
01:15:10 she does the same hard slap again, and she's got a flinch up,
01:15:13 and she's--oh, then, yeah, okay, cool.
01:15:15 Right.
01:15:16 No hard slap again on her ass because that's too--
01:15:19 It's a cue.
01:15:20 And again, that's picking up on the cues too, which I think is safe.
01:15:23 So, again, this is a topic that we will continue to talk about in Manhood,
01:15:28 and we will continue to have these conversations.
01:15:31 And I want people to know that nothing that was discussed here
01:15:34 is a specific opinion of anyone.
01:15:37 It's a discussion here to meet people where they are
01:15:40 and to have everyone know--you know, everyone's thinking their own thoughts,
01:15:44 and it's about trying to have a discussion around that,
01:15:49 and sometimes a heated discussion, but it's a very powerful discussion
01:15:52 and a positive one in the end because the end result is always to make a positive change.
01:15:57 So, you know, if we can have some context, what's your takeaways on that?
01:16:02 Let me start with Shireen.
01:16:03 On what?
01:16:04 On "Just Say No," on the topics today.
01:16:06 Do you feel that you've been heard?
01:16:09 I do.
01:16:10 I think that this forum and this outlet is necessary because our world is changing, right,
01:16:16 and so fast, so rapidly.
01:16:20 And I think men and/or women really shouldn't be caught up in saying,
01:16:25 "I didn't know that it was like this," or "I didn't know that this is how it is now," right?
01:16:30 So having these discussions and having these forums
01:16:32 and understanding the risk of sitting at actions to both men and/or women
01:16:37 I think is very, very important.
01:16:39 And with regards to equality, what are some of the things that you'd want to see
01:16:43 apart from just pay or position?
01:16:46 How can someone make sort of an immediate change, low-hanging fruit,
01:16:51 and then grow to having a better understanding of what women are going through and feeling?
01:16:56 Well, I always say that I think violence against women is heavily perpetrated on men's assumption of women
01:17:06 or what men think of women.
01:17:08 So I think if men were to change how they see and/or view women--
01:17:12 it could be small things, like Chiny not calling them "thing," right?
01:17:16 And maybe--not to blame you, but less objectification, I think.
01:17:23 Those kind of really small, low-hanging fruit things
01:17:26 is what can really change the culture of men towards women.
01:17:32 That's a whole other topic I'd like--because you mentioned objectification,
01:17:36 but women like men.
01:17:38 You want to feel--
01:17:40 Don't say what women--you think men want to feel.
01:17:45 Agreed, I agree. I stand up.
01:17:48 I've often heard about the battle of the sexes, right?
01:17:53 And I know sometimes we do it in a joking manner,
01:17:55 so I'm not taking away from the joke and the fun of it.
01:17:58 But inevitably, I don't believe in the battle of the sexes because nobody wins.
01:18:03 So it don't make sense that we fight in each other.
01:18:06 I advocate for truth, and that's what we started Man Under Water,
01:18:10 with men speaking the truth.
01:18:12 So therefore, if you're speaking the truth--and normally,
01:18:14 adding both men and women--say exactly what you mean,
01:18:18 say exactly how you feel, what you like, what you don't like,
01:18:22 and be honest with yourself.
01:18:24 So even before being honest with someone else, right?
01:18:28 First, men, be honest with yourself in terms of what you want from a woman,
01:18:33 what you're willing to do, what you don't want to do, etc.
01:18:37 Also, I still add in that men--we have to ensure and learn every language
01:18:42 of every woman that we know so that we can navigate it properly.
01:18:46 Whether you find that hard or difficult, right now--
01:18:48 And I think it's the age as well, right?
01:18:51 That's the reality that I see.
01:18:54 And talking to the men, and older men, younger men,
01:18:57 I'm always willing to be proven wrong,
01:19:00 but we know means know, either way we take it.
01:19:04 And let's not fight each other, let's hear each other out,
01:19:08 so we can make a healthier society.
01:19:11 -Karen? -Karen.
01:19:13 Me, I think you know means know thing, pretty easy, in my opinion.
01:19:18 -That's great. -I didn't know it was normal.
01:19:20 Like, okay, cool, if somebody say no, okay, move on with your life.
01:19:25 And there are a couple of other things you could be doing,
01:19:28 like running down what's not for you, to get yourself in a big mama's pants.
01:19:32 And just say, "If you're talking about sex, I don't like this."
01:19:35 And then I wasn't here for the big equality part,
01:19:37 but equality thing, if you ask me about that, that's a whole next thing,
01:19:40 because I don't really--I don't find I have any man-woman inequality.
01:19:44 I know women making more money than men in the same position that she did,
01:19:49 like how she was saying, she and homeboy coming to the same time,
01:19:53 and he ended up making more money than she was making.
01:19:56 But I know it's the opposite.
01:19:58 I work in places where the secretary is making more money than me.
01:20:01 Why? Why do you think?
01:20:03 There you go, you understand?
01:20:05 So the inequality thing and the equality thing, I think,
01:20:08 that's maybe in your industry, but I think that's a big, super big issue
01:20:13 that I find is something that happens in children,
01:20:16 not plenty in terms of work and those kind of things.
01:20:20 Okay.
01:20:21 So I would like to close by just saying I know Shireen is probably
01:20:26 really wanting to retort to that statement, but what it comes down to
01:20:31 is there's certainly--what we can agree on, Shireen, and guys,
01:20:35 we can agree there is a movement.
01:20:37 There clearly was a disconnect, and there still is an ongoing disconnect.
01:20:42 I mean, the Western Hemisphere is a bit more pronounced
01:20:45 in terms of the changes that are being made
01:20:48 as opposed to some other countries.
01:20:54 With that being said, there needs to be change.
01:20:57 Human is human.
01:20:59 The position is the position.
01:21:01 I was going to say the right man get the job,
01:21:04 but may the right person get the job.
01:21:07 There's just certain positions that are better suited to a male,
01:21:12 and there's certain positions that are better suited to a female.
01:21:15 But in the bigger context of things, the better person gets the job,
01:21:19 not down to ethnicity, not down to gender.
01:21:23 It's just the best suited person.
01:21:25 That's the way I feel about it.
01:21:27 But we have a lot to do.
01:21:29 We've only scratched the surface.
01:21:31 If that--
01:21:32 I mean, I'm not a perfect world.
01:21:34 That's what you'd like it to be, right?
01:21:36 But it's not utopia.
01:21:38 But in order to make the change, you have to acknowledge
01:21:41 that change needs to be made.
01:21:43 And I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:45 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:47 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:49 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:51 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:53 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:55 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:57 I think that's what we need to do.
01:21:59 I think that's what we need to do.
01:22:01 I think that's what we need to do.
01:22:03 I think that's what we need to do.
01:22:05 I think that's what we need to do.
01:22:07 I think that's what we need to do.
01:22:09 I think that's what we need to do.
01:22:11 What rights do we have that you all don't have now?
01:22:13 None.
01:22:15 So what's the fight about?
01:22:17 Because research shows that women are discriminated in many aspects of life.
01:22:22 So I think that would be a whole different show.
01:22:25 We're going to have a whole next show.
01:22:27 To say that because women have the same rights as men
01:22:30 doesn't mean that they don't experience bias.
01:22:32 I think that would be incorrect to say.
01:22:35 I agree because it also comes down to
01:22:38 everybody can apply for a position.
01:22:40 But who gets a position in the end?
01:22:42 And is there a boys club?
01:22:44 Boys clubs exist.
01:22:46 But that's a whole other topic of discussion.
01:22:53 We understand that it is there.
01:22:56 And we have to start acknowledging it.
01:22:58 I do take Johansi's point that women also need to understand the part that they play.
01:23:03 And even though it might seem to, why?
01:23:06 Why should we be doing that?
01:23:08 And if we continue to do that, you know the definition of insanity?
01:23:11 Continue to keep doing the same thing but you're expecting a different result.
01:23:14 So if you know that there are certain things that are going to trigger men to do certain behaviors,
01:23:18 instead of saying, well that's their ego, that's their insecurities, that's how they show up.
01:23:22 I've heard it before, men and their sh*t.
01:23:25 But that's what it is.
01:23:27 So if you continue to do those things, don't expect a different result.
01:23:31 But if you want to make a change, sometimes a change needs to start from somewhere.
01:23:35 So the little changes may reap big results.
01:23:39 And when it comes to my thoughts on no, I just want to be very clear, no is no.
01:23:45 And I think the safer thing to do is to say, you know, let's debate it after.
01:23:50 Let's debate the why.
01:23:52 If you're deep into it and the woman says no, or whoever your partner is says no,
01:23:59 at that particular point, stop, debate it after, hey, why you said no.
01:24:04 Let the ego come out at that point.
01:24:06 Safeguard yourself.
01:24:08 So, Yohansi, Shireen, Chyney, aka Karon, Karon aka Chyney, always a pleasure.
01:24:14 This has been Manhood, another really powerful discussion.
01:24:17 No means no, just say no.
01:24:29 Manhood, brought to you by Jameson, natural sources since 1922, and Racetrap.