Education: Your views on the RAAC concrete crisis
More than 100 schools across the United Kingdom have been ordered to close over fears that potentially dangerous concrete used in their construction between the 1950s and the mid-90s could lead to structural collapse.
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00:00 Ian Watkinson, you're the National Lead for Health and Safety with the National Education
00:05 Union and you're not particularly happy are you with the way the situation is being handled
00:09 over rack concrete as it's known, this material that can collapse without warning when it
00:14 reaches the end of its natural lifespan. But the government for its part says that we're
00:18 only in this position with schools being told to close at short notice and uncertainty around
00:23 others while they're investigated because they've taken such a cautious approach. If
00:27 you've got an interest in health and safety surely that's an approach you'd advocate
00:31 isn't it? Well it's last minute, it's incredibly last minute. The government's known about
00:38 the problems with rack for a long time. There was a classroom ceiling collapse back in 2018
00:47 and following that there was some action taken and a self-assessment survey sent out to schools
00:53 and the government appears to have been trying to gather information because of that situation
00:59 since then. However for things to change two days or three days before the start of term
01:05 is an absolute disgrace. It leaves schools and headteachers in an impossible situation.
01:12 It's leaving parents and children trying to make different arrangements because of this
01:17 last minute announcement that the schools are going to have to be checked. Now I completely
01:23 respect if there's a concern about safety then absolutely the schools have got to be
01:27 checked and we need to know that it's safe for children and staff to be in those schools
01:33 but the government have known for a long time that there's a problem so leaving it until
01:37 the last minute is frankly ridiculous. Have you heard of concrete problems? No I haven't
01:42 heard of it no. Were you shocked too? After you told me about it and that it can collapse
01:47 schools then yeah it's pretty shocking if it could put a lot of people in danger there
01:52 so yeah. And if schools have to close for it what do you think of that? Yeah you've
01:57 got to prioritise children's education especially after things like Covid so yeah it's a really
02:01 big problem that needs solving. They didn't know that the risk had changed did it? That's
02:06 what's changed over the course of the past few weeks that rack that wasn't deemed to
02:10 be in a critical state was considered safe for now whereas things have happened over
02:16 the summer particularly the collapse of one particular beam that have indicated that even
02:21 rack that isn't deemed critical might not be safe to be left for any length of time
02:26 so they had to act didn't they? They had no choice. It's right that they've acted if they've
02:32 finally recognised that there is a critical risk but those critical risks were identified
02:37 way back and only this morning or yesterday evening a former civil servant, senior civil
02:44 servant described a situation where it was crystal clear that there were hundreds potentially
02:51 more schools at a critical risk of collapse and a critical and imminent risk of collapse
02:59 and that was several years ago and I'm sure some of your listeners and readers will have
03:05 been hearing about Rishi Sunak's response to that as he was the Chancellor at the time
03:10 and rather than investing in the remedial work that needed to be done he slashed the
03:15 budget and cut it more than in half so absolutely safety first of course safety is paramount
03:23 but parents, teachers, staff, head teachers need to know that their school is safe for
03:30 them to work in and for children to learn in and what's equally perplexing is that there's
03:36 a marked reluctance to tell us where the schools that they actually know about so far and they
03:41 don't know about all of them they won't tell us where they are. Anything was built in there
03:45 between the 60s and 80s and the material used in the industry then was not what it is today,
03:53 it's not sophisticated as it is today and of course technology and everything has improved
03:57 so I'm not surprised when you look at some of the ageing buildings there might be some
04:01 issues. Would you say you were worried about it yourself? Not because I've got nobody that's
04:07 at that age anymore so it might be children who've grown up and gone, they've got grandchildren
04:11 but they're not ready for school yet but it is a concern in terms of when you look at
04:15 the spillover of academic growth in young people after Covid and now you've been interrupted
04:21 again so what's that going to look like in 20-25 years time, it's a worry. So do you
04:27 think perhaps they might be rushing into closing without thinking about the academic impact?
04:32 Not really no but obviously they just need to think about where they can relocate these
04:37 children and educate their educational needs, that should be the priority. There is space
04:42 even in Preston where, in front of them two buildings where they're safe enough to rehouse
04:48 education at an emergency level and then think about a long-term strategy but you know God
04:54 forbid there's any accidents or any lives lost so it's probably a wise decision to postpone
05:00 the return but we must by now prioritise a plan B for where they can rehouse education
05:08 for these young people. It's been reported that there's 450 schools where RAC is suspected
05:14 based on an initial self-assessment survey but they haven't yet had a follow-up survey
05:19 done. The Education Secretary said on the BBC this morning that those surveys will be
05:24 completed within the next two weeks. What do you think should happen to those schools
05:29 in that fortnight interim period? Well it's, yeah, so if we've got a school where RAC is
05:37 suspected and there is that critical risk of an imminent collapse then it's got to be
05:44 a safety first approach. So in those schools where they've had the extra surveys and they're
05:49 having to either partially close or fully close and move learning regrettably online
05:55 for a few days in some of those schools or into quarter cabins then if that's the case
05:58 then that needs to happen. It's got to be a safety first approach but I'm not sure that
06:03 we recognise the numbers. 450 is a scary amount but Gillian Keegan also made reference to
06:08 10% of the entire school estate not having the details on 10% of those so that's over
06:15 2,000 schools. So there's different numbers being bandied about. We need to know where
06:20 those schools are, have they been surveyed and if they have been surveyed and got RAC
06:24 what's going to happen about it? That 450 figure I should say it's not known whether
06:29 the RAC within the suspected will be in a critical state because the follow-up survey
06:34 hasn't been done but when you say a safety first approach what would that mean to you
06:39 closing those 450 as a precaution even if they might not contain critical state RAC?
06:47 Well it's not known isn't it? It's that uncertainty Paul. So if you're not sure then it's got
06:51 to be a safety first approach. If there's any doubt whatsoever that a school could,
06:57 is at imminent risk of collapse or partial collapse, whether that's a ceiling coming
07:01 in or something along those lines which are the things that have happened so far that
07:07 are known about then it's got to be safety first. There's been massive disruption with
07:11 education throughout COVID obviously and not forgetting that we had some unbelievably last
07:17 minute government announcements around that time as well but it's got to be safety first.
07:22 At the same time these sort of plans should have been in place for this, plans should
07:27 have been in place for this a long time before now, two days, three days before the start
07:32 isn't good enough. It is really shocking that the council haven't
07:41 done or whoever it is haven't done anything about it especially since they built it knowing
07:47 that they were only supposed to last 30 years and they've lasted a lot longer than that
07:52 and obviously our children's safety is very, very important and I really hope that they
07:59 do something about it really quickly so that everyone's safe including the children and
08:06 the teachers and all that. So if schools are getting closed do you think
08:10 that's needed? Yes, just for the safety of the children and
08:17 all of that, just for the safety really. I do think closing the schools is necessary
08:23 just to keep everyone safe and it's unfortunate that we have to close it and that children's
08:29 invaluable learning time is being taken away but yeah.
08:33 They had also mentioned hospitals may be affected, would that be something you'd want to research
08:37 or know about more? Yeah I can't comment on that because I can't
08:40 see the link really, how that's going to work unless the hospitals are all buildings and
08:47 they need refurbishment or replacing as well so if that's what you're talking about that
08:52 makes sense, any building that's got such old material used on it there's a risk of
09:00 injury or hurting anybody disappearing for that reason.
09:05 Coincidentally I've known about it for a while but that's probably policy, procedures
09:10 and protocols that slow down the decision and that should be a part of the look at as
09:15 well. Had you heard about the issues with Concordie?
09:18 I hadn't no, I wasn't sure, I've never heard of it. I heard about the school closures but
09:23 I wasn't sure why they were closing. So now you know it's because of that are
09:27 you surprised? Yeah I'm a bit surprised, a bit shocked, you
09:30 wouldn't think that they'd be so careless I would imagine. You've got to think, they're
09:36 planning on building a school, it's not a short term building, you'd think they'd take
09:40 a lot more care and thought into what they were putting down in terms of the concrete.
09:46 So now that it's come out that they know it's not particularly safe, what do you think should
09:50 be done? I mean ideally you'd think they'd change
09:54 it, obviously that'd be quite expensive but at the end of the day it's the safety of the
09:58 next generation isn't it, so it's important that they are kept safe in schools particularly.
10:03 So schools as you've said are closing, do you think that is needed?
10:06 Absolutely yeah, obviously the safety is the most important thing I think.
10:10 Just to push you on that then, safety first approach, does that mean all 450 should shut
10:14 or? I don't know enough about those 450 schools
10:18 Paul and I know you're pushing me and you want me to say they should be shut or they
10:21 shouldn't shut but without knowing the full details on those schools, but if there's any
10:25 doubts, if there's a chance that those schools could collapse or they're at a critical risk
10:30 of imminent collapse, then it's got to be a safety first approach and the safety of
10:36 children and staff has to come first. So those schools, if it's 450 schools that
10:42 we know about, I suspect it's a lot more than that, then they have to be prioritised and
10:47 we need to know if those schools are safe to be open or not.
10:51 Just looking slightly to the longer term finally, what do you want to happen next because this
10:55 is obviously going to be a situation that's going to take some resolving over quite a
10:59 long period of time isn't it? It is, it's going to take a long time and
11:04 it's going to need serious investments. The school's capital budget has been underfunded
11:09 for well over a decade, they're billions short of spending the amount of money that's needed
11:15 to bring the school estate up to scratch. Asbestos exists, is present in around 90%
11:22 of all schools, so that's going to create a huge problem in itself for all those schools
11:27 where RAC remedial work needs to take place. But we're looking for a programme of asbestos
11:34 removal and making schools safe in that way alongside this RAC situation. So it's going
11:39 to take a massive investment, but it is time, it's long overdue time for this to happen.
11:46 There really shouldn't be anything more important than the safety of children learning at school.
11:52 Ian Watkinson, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.
11:56 You're welcome.