Sawal Yeh Hai | Maria Memon | ARY News | 15th September 2023
#NAB #supremecourt #corruption #BilawalBhutto #PPP #ElectionCommission
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Maria Memon
Guests:
- Barrister Gohar Ali khan (Lawyer)
- Ashtar Ausaf Ali (Former Attorney General)
- Mohammad Zubair Umar PMLN
- Saleem Mandviwalla PPP
Complete details of corruption cases restored after NAB amendment case verdict
Kala qanoon use kehte hain jo ghalat istemal ho," Former AG Ashtar Ausaf's big statement
What will PPP do if ECP fails to announce election date??
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Maria Memon
Guests:
- Barrister Gohar Ali khan (Lawyer)
- Ashtar Ausaf Ali (Former Attorney General)
- Mohammad Zubair Umar PMLN
- Saleem Mandviwalla PPP
Complete details of corruption cases restored after NAB amendment case verdict
Kala qanoon use kehte hain jo ghalat istemal ho," Former AG Ashtar Ausaf's big statement
What will PPP do if ECP fails to announce election date??
Transcript
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24:09 Welcome back. We have with us Mr. Mohammad Zubair, former Governor of Sindh, and Renma Muslim-e-Nawaz.
24:14 They are in London right now. We met them today.
24:18 We will talk to Mr. Zubair about the party meeting and the possibility of returning.
24:24 Assalam-o-Alaikum Mr. Zubair.
24:26 Yes, Assalam-o-Alaikum.
24:29 Did you all listen to the meeting together or did you have a meeting later?
24:34 Were you all together when Nawaz Sharif met?
24:37 The meeting was decided when we met.
24:41 I think it was around 4pm when we met in Pakistan.
24:47 The decision was made then.
24:49 What was Mr. Nawaz Sharif's first reaction?
24:53 I don't think there was any reaction.
25:00 It was expected that he would do something before leaving.
25:07 We didn't know what exactly he would do.
25:10 But we knew that something would happen that would create a sense of excitement.
25:17 What would happen now? What would be the implications?
25:21 He has been supporting PTI.
25:24 He had to make the PTI people happy.
25:30 He had to give them a gift.
25:32 How did the PTI people get happy?
25:34 You are saying that your case will not make a difference.
25:37 Mr. Rana Sinha said that if you get caught, it is the PTI people.
25:39 How did they make the PTI people happy?
25:41 The PTI people are understanding.
25:43 They made them happy and said that they had forgiven the case.
25:47 They had given the case to the NAB.
25:51 We had to suffer for 3.5 years.
25:56 Not just the law itself, but the vicious interpretation of the law.
26:01 The government of Imran Khan.
26:03 We had to suffer for that.
26:05 The most surprising thing is that Mr. Bandyal did not read the judgements.
26:10 The Supreme Court judges had made a lot of criticisms of the NAB.
26:21 They said that the NAB was interpreting the law wrongly.
26:25 They said that the NAB was using the law as a political witch hunt.
26:29 They had used more harsh words in the judgements.
26:33 If we had not been caught then what would we have been caught?
26:38 You had consulted with Mr. Bukla and he said that there would be no problem.
26:41 The long list of cases and the references that were sent to other courts will be transferred back.
26:46 So, legally, for Mr. Nawaz and Mr. Shabazz and the other leadership, there would be no problem.
26:52 Mr. Bukla said that go ahead. Is everything fine?
26:55 It is too early.
26:57 I had not even spoken to Mr. Bukla when I met him.
27:02 The decision had come a little while ago.
27:06 I am speaking from a political point of view.
27:09 The legal understanding that was on the basis of the three and a half years of Imran Khan's rule.
27:16 The NAB law was being used in a wrong way for political witch hunting.
27:22 At that time, there was no conviction.
27:30 The conviction of Mr. Nawaz was different from the case of Mr. Nawaz.
27:37 Mr. Shabazz's case is different.
27:40 Mr. Nawaz's case is different from Mr. Shabazz's case.
27:45 The cases like this will be transferred and opened.
27:48 So, those legal matters will be transferred.
27:51 You have said again that Mr. Nawaz is coming back on 21st.
27:55 Is this the final date?
27:58 Is there a chance for a change?
28:00 Or can it be made flexible by looking at the political situation?
28:03 Can it be done ahead or behind?
28:05 There is no flexibility.
28:08 If there is, it will be of the first coming, not of the second coming.
28:12 This is very clear.
28:14 Obviously, when he is coming after four years,
28:19 it is a big challenge for the party.
28:24 We think that the election campaign will start from here.
28:28 We have to create momentum.
28:31 To create momentum, we have to go to every level of the organization.
28:37 We have to go to the lower level and plan.
28:41 There is time for that.
28:43 There is no time to wait for anything.
28:46 You were waiting for the change of the Chief Justice.
28:50 That is a fact.
28:53 Why are you putting so much burden on the Chief Justice?
28:57 Don't you think that this will go towards making it controversial?
29:02 If you pin your hopes there and give an impression that you will get relief from there.
29:07 Is this a good approach?
29:09 No, we are not expecting anything extra from the new Chief Justice.
29:16 We are expecting justice.
29:20 We did not expect anything from Bandyal.
29:23 We knew that he was a part of the group that started this game in 2017.
29:30 He was not giving up.
29:32 He did the same on the last day.
29:35 Ijaz-ul-Ahsan is still the judge.
29:38 Even today, if you look at the upright judge, Jagra Bansi,
29:43 he has disagreed with this judgment.
29:48 I understand that his note was not even read in the court.
29:52 But now he is here.
29:54 We have read it.
29:56 He is saying that this is the right of the Parliament and the right of the elected representatives.
29:59 But you have repeatedly said in your speeches that when the new Chief Justice will come,
30:03 you have tweeted many times about your leadership.
30:06 It seems that you have put a lot of weight on your expectations.
30:16 You predict the future on the basis of past records.
30:22 The new Chief Justice has a strong record.
30:26 He has also made very strong judgments.
30:32 We have no objection to his strong judgments.
30:36 They should be strong and in accordance with the law.
30:39 But when Nawaz Sharif has not done anything like this,
30:44 then what is the justice in this case?
30:58 What is the justice in this case according to the PMLN?
31:01 The justice in this case is the same as what Justice Mansoor has written in his note.
31:08 This is the right of the Parliament.
31:11 But it is not just my opinion.
31:15 I think that for the last 15-20 years,
31:18 everyone has felt that the NAB ordinance is a black law.
31:24 And it becomes a black law when it is used in a wrong way.
31:29 The NAB ordinance was the same as the PMLN's ordinance from 2008 to 2013.
31:40 But it was not used for political vigilance.
31:42 Sir, the people's party cases of the PMLN are the same as you have made.
31:47 Today, Bilawal has said that you have taken them out of Punjab in 2013.
31:54 You are running away from the elections.
31:59 There is a very long charge sheet against you.
32:03 PMLN has not made any cases.
32:07 The people's party has not made any cases.
32:10 Bilawal is the head of the people's party.
32:13 He wants to do his politics.
32:15 He does not want to own any responsibility in politics.
32:19 He was a part of the government in the last 16 months.
32:23 He is distancing himself from that.
32:25 He has the right to do his politics.
32:29 He can attack the PMLN.
32:31 Sir, is he doing it on his own will?
32:34 Is it obvious that the people's party head is doing it on the will of the PMLN or is he doing it on his own?
32:42 I do not know what his perception is as a political competitor.
32:50 I think it is obvious that he is doing it on the will of the PMLN.
32:54 He thinks that this is the future of the people's party and the election campaign.
33:03 The most ridiculous thing is that he is asking for elections again and again.
33:06 He wants elections within 90 days of the assembly being held.
33:11 He does not even answer when he came to the CCI meeting and approved the new census.
33:20 What did that mean?
33:22 He said that he will make us believe.
33:24 Which forum did he make us believe that the election commission will not act on this?
33:31 At that time, the debate had started.
33:35 If the 2023 census is approved at the CCI meeting, then elections will be held on that basis.
33:41 And the election will be held on that basis means that there will be a delay.
33:45 If he is approving the new census in the first week of August, then the delay will not be possible.
33:54 I do not know why he said that.
33:59 The delay was not possible but only your party knows the date of February.
34:02 Mr. Rana Sinhaullah came to the board and said that the elections were held in February.
34:06 The people's party also says that only the PMLN is giving the specific date of February.
34:10 No one else is giving it.
34:12 Neither the election commission knows when the elections will be held nor any other party.
34:14 Only the PMLN knows that the elections are being held in February.
34:16 Who told you this?
34:18 No one told me.
34:20 It is very simple.
34:22 The election commission itself gives an expected period.
34:27 The period of the restrictions will be in the period of December.
34:29 As soon as the census was notified after the CCI meeting in 2023,
34:34 it was expected that the census will be completed somewhere in December.
34:38 After that, they need 60 days to run the electoral process.
34:42 So, whether it is in the middle of February or at the end of January,
34:45 what difference does it make?
34:47 We do not know.
34:49 The election commission said that it will work in December.
34:53 The chemistry between you and Raja Riaz was excellent.
34:57 There was excellent coordination.
34:59 Raja Riaz spoke about February and Rana Sinhaullah spoke about February.
35:02 Raja Riaz says that his elders told him.
35:05 Who told you?
35:07 Raja Riaz and Rana Sinhaullah both belong to Faisalabad.
35:10 So, there must be some coordination.
35:12 Is there a WhatsApp group of Faisalabadis in which this can be discussed?
35:16 No.
35:18 You are telling the policy of the PMLN.
35:21 This is common sense.
35:23 If someone asks you,
35:25 when the census was notified in 2023,
35:29 what did you think, when will it be?
35:32 Sir, we thought that it would be in the period of three months.
35:37 But you have been running the process as per your own initiative.
35:40 You want to go to the elections after the return of Nawaz Sharif in February
35:44 and after keeping all the margins.
35:46 That is why you are becoming the facilitator of this process.
35:50 We started the debate about what Bilal Bhutto has demanded.
35:55 I am just saying that Bilal Bhutto was on board on this.
36:00 He cannot distance himself from this.
36:03 We did not know what was going to happen.
36:05 He was so innocent.
36:07 This was such a big issue.
36:09 It was not a small issue.
36:11 It was not a small issue.
36:13 Some PMLN leaders, I think Rana Sinhaullah said this before,
36:19 that the census would be on the basis of 2017.
36:21 But when it changed and it was accepted that it would be in 2023,
36:25 everyone knew about it.
36:28 We should have raised this question before the CCI meeting.
36:33 We should have raised this question in May itself.
36:37 The results of the census have come.
36:40 We should have started working at that time.
36:42 But it has been delayed a lot.
36:44 Thank you very much for giving us time from London.
36:47 We will come back after the break.
36:48 We will talk about the development of the NAP.
36:50 We will talk about the press conference that Bilal Bhutto did.
36:53 Welcome back.
36:58 The Central Executive Committee of the People's Party met today.
37:00 Bilal Bhutto Zardari held a press conference
37:02 and repeated the demand of holding elections within 90 days.
37:07 He also talked about the level playing field that the People's Party is repeatedly discussing.
37:13 And what Bilal Bhutto said about the task of resolving the issues
37:18 that the CCC has assigned to Mr. Zardari.
37:21 If we listen to this short,
37:27 then Mr. Manbivala will be with us and we will talk to him.
37:29 What statement did Bilal Bhutto give?
37:31 Senator Salim Manbivala is with us on the telephone line.
37:38 Thank you very much.
37:40 Senator, can you hear me?
37:42 Yes, I can hear you.
37:43 The People's Party has been discussing the 90-day elections for a long time.
37:46 After the CCC, the thought was that
37:49 maybe some legal strategy is being considered.
37:53 But you are not doing anything legally.
37:56 You have demanded from the Election Commission.
37:58 The Election Commission is not listening to anyone.
38:00 It is not listening to the other parties either.
38:02 They are saying that they will give a date in December.
38:04 They have clearly given the answer.
38:06 So they are standing there and your stance is there.
38:09 But the matter did not go beyond this.
38:12 Our stance will remain the same.
38:15 We cannot have any other position.
38:18 We will demand from the Election Commission
38:21 that you give a date for the elections.
38:23 There is nothing else to demand from the Election Commission.
38:30 We cannot ask them to give a date in November or December or January.
38:35 We can ask them to give a date for the elections in 90 days.
38:40 Whenever you want to give a date.
38:41 So at least we will continue to demand this from the Election Commission.
38:45 And they are not giving a date.
38:47 They have not given a date yet.
38:49 That is the stage of the political parties.
38:52 What do they want to do on this?
38:54 Because this is not a one party issue.
38:56 People's Party wants this and others don't.
38:59 So we have to collectively meet all parties
39:03 and reach a consensus
39:05 that what should be the next step of our political parties
39:09 and give a date for the elections.
39:10 Sir, your major coalition partner in the last government is PMLN.
39:13 They are comfortable.
39:15 They are saying that it will be in February and everyone is on board.
39:17 So that will be out of the equation.
39:19 I am saying that if PMLN is saying this,
39:23 then they should give a date for February.
39:25 At least give a date.
39:27 They are not taking the name of giving a date.
39:29 So we need a date.
39:31 They should give a date for February, January or December.
39:33 At least give a date.
39:36 I am asking you as a political expert,
39:39 why are they not giving a date?
39:41 What is the obstacle?
39:43 I don't know.
39:45 Because Farooq Naik gave a presentation to CEC.
39:48 He told us the difficulties.
39:50 That the things that the election commission has to overcome,
39:53 they will give a date only after that.
39:55 And that is delimitation.
39:57 And other things like lightening etc.
39:59 So until they do those things,
40:02 it is difficult for them to give a date.
40:05 But sir, the People's Party has shown flexibility.
40:07 You said in the beginning that there is no need for delimitation.
40:10 And then in yesterday's discussion,
40:12 in the last session of People's Party,
40:14 Shazia Murry said that if we have to do it, then let us do it.
40:16 And still give us a date.
40:18 Despite your flexibility,
40:20 there are no dates for delimitation.
40:22 Do you have any doubt that this can go beyond February?
40:25 In the back of the mind,
40:27 you are thinking that the election date might not come.
40:29 We don't have any doubt.
40:33 But the thing is that
40:34 asking for a date for the election is not wrong, right Maria?
40:37 We should all demand that.
40:39 The whole country should demand that.
40:42 It is not only the political party.
40:44 The President has also written a letter.
40:47 The President has a legal right to distribute the date.
40:50 A group of people think that the President can give a date.
40:54 The law ministers, the caretakers,
40:56 they said that they cannot give a date.
40:58 They wrote a letter to the Supreme Court to explain this.
41:02 Are you all clear that the Election Commission has to give a date.
41:04 There is no doubt in this.
41:06 No, Farooq Naik also briefed us in the CEC Committee
41:11 that the President does not have a mandate.
41:14 The mandate is with the Election Commission.
41:17 Okay.
41:19 And the level playing field issue,
41:21 that the CEC has given the responsibility to Asif Zardari
41:24 to talk about the level playing field.
41:27 When you talk about the level playing field,
41:31 you have to talk about it,
41:33 so what are the consequences?
41:37 Who do you have to talk to?
41:39 PM Lank says that he is moving towards the level playing field.
41:44 The problem is only with the People's Party
41:46 and the way of justice.
41:48 Look, mainly, some concerns were shown,
41:52 especially by our friends from Sindh,
41:55 that there is victimization going on there.
42:00 And the caretaker government is systematically going after
42:03 the decisions of the PPP,
42:06 the previous government,
42:08 and they are being derailed in some way.
42:11 And people are being harassed,
42:14 they are being removed,
42:16 things like that.
42:18 So, on top of that, he said that
42:20 we say to President Zardari that
42:23 he has to indulge in anyone,
42:26 from the caretaker government,
42:29 from the government,
42:30 whoever he wants to talk to,
42:32 and resolve this matter.
42:34 Sir, how did the level playing field tilt?
42:37 For what reasons?
42:39 Because a few months ago, it seemed that
42:41 the People's Party had a very good chance,
42:43 but now it has tilted.
42:45 Now it seems that the People's Party has more chances
42:47 than the Noon League.
42:49 What was the turning point?
42:51 What has changed in your opinion?
42:53 Look, I think that nothing has changed,
42:56 but in the last few months,
42:57 our previous government and the Chief Minister of Sindh
43:00 have raised a lot of concerns in the CEC.
43:03 There were not so many other concerns,
43:06 but because of their concerns,
43:08 this position came to light.
43:11 And that is why they spoke about it,
43:13 and in the end, everyone said that
43:15 we give you a mandate to proceed.
43:17 Sir, but this was not four months ago.
43:19 Four months ago, the situation was different.
43:21 It seemed that Hawa Karuk was on the People's Party side.
43:23 Now it is not.
43:25 In that context, I am asking,
43:26 what has changed?
43:28 I am understanding that
43:30 the change as far as the caretaker government,
43:33 has been more than the change in Sindh.
43:36 Otherwise, there was not so much change before that.
43:39 And since the caretaker government
43:41 has come into Sindh,
43:43 things have become a little different.
43:46 Right.
43:48 Thank you very much.
43:50 We would like to ask more questions
43:52 to Mr. Mandivala,
43:54 but we will have to end the program here.
43:55 The Pakistan People's Party is still discussing
43:57 the level playing field.
43:59 It is raising its objections.
44:01 Mr. Zardari, according to Mr. Mandivala,
44:03 whoever he wants to consult,
44:05 whether it is the caretaker government
44:07 or the Mukhtar Dharhal,
44:09 this is his decision.
44:11 The program is over.