In an exclusive interview with HW News English, NCP Ajit Pawar faction state president Sunil Tatkare answers various qustions regarding the party and its future plans.
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00:00 Namaskar, this is Sanjay Zogh here. I am joined by Ajit Pawar led NCP's Maharashtra Unit Chief,
00:07 Mr. Sunil Tatkare, who is a veteran leader and a party MP. We are going to discuss a range of
00:13 issues. The revised list of district guardian ministers, the ongoing legal battle between
00:19 the Ajit Pawar camp and a Sharad Pawar led group, what will be the party's strategy to consolidate
00:26 and increase presence in Maharashtra and on top of it, how Ajit Pawar is going to increase his
00:35 grip on the party and the state politics. So welcome Sunil ji for HW News. We have got
00:43 a lot of issues to discuss and thanks a lot for spending the time. My obvious question is,
00:48 a little while ago, ultimately Ajit Pawar led group has succeeded in getting what they want.
00:56 So how do you explain on the revised list of the district guardian ministers that have been
01:02 declared a little while ago, but Raigad which is going to be or which is your home district
01:08 continues to be absent from the list. Is it still a contentious issue? Is there any dispute with BJP
01:14 and Shindele Chhusain? First of all, I should say that I am very much happy
01:19 for two reasons. One is for the portfolio which was given to our camp and the way by which Ajit
01:26 Dada has selected the ministers, keeping our own ideology, Shaukh, Lambedkar. Likewise, that and
01:33 even every region, Bidarbah, Marathwada, Western Maharashtra, North Maharashtra, Bhokan and the
01:38 Humain and all minorities. So, all are being included therein. I mean the faces, true faces
01:44 of the NCB party. That is one thing. Regarding as you asked just now that revised list of the
01:50 guardian ministers has been published. I am really happy for that. I welcome on behalf of my party as
01:55 the state president and the seniors they have got their district therein, especially say Pune,
02:03 then Kulapur, Parbhani, Beed, then Guniya, Bhuldana, then Nandurbar and all that.
02:10 Question about, especially regarding the ragged what you have asked me, there is no
02:14 any confrontation between all of us. You see, when there is an alliance of three parties and
02:19 when we get together for the first time, this is the first alliance. Of course,
02:25 alliance with the Sena was also first. That was also the first experience. Having long battle
02:30 with the Sena, whole of my political career and whole of the Congress and the NCB career, we are
02:36 fought equally with Sena as equally with the BJP. But even then we joined the Sena government in
02:44 2009. Maybe the equation different or whatsoever there, whenever that topic will come, I would
02:49 like to emphasize something on that issue. You see, the Rai Gurd is there and also Nasik is
02:55 also there. Nasik is also important district because not only our senior leaders is Mr.
03:01 Chakan Bujbhai is there, but our five MLAs are from there. Sometimes in a negotiation,
03:06 sometimes in a dialogue, it takes some time because expansion is also awaited there.
03:11 So, I feel in a few days that can be also sorted out very nicely.
03:15 Sunil ji, you touched a very interesting point about the manner in which this entire
03:20 conglomeration has taken place. You deviated from Sharath Pawar, joined hands with so-called
03:26 Mahashakti, the BJP to which as you rightly said fought so vigorously and of course with
03:33 Shinde led Siv Sena. What has provoked this kind of arrangement in Maharashtra and how it is taking
03:39 a shape now? You see, this is not the first time that we have gone with the BJP. Yes, we have joined
03:46 the BJP government first time. That is true. But in the history of the past, as you know,
03:51 as Mr. Rajiv Dada also briefed there, in 2014, you see, there was one possibility before even
03:59 the Parliament poll was there that we, BJP and Sena may have contested the pre-poll alliance
04:08 election of 2014. I know the detail, but I don't want to quote anything down for that.
04:15 But in 2014, after the election results of Vidhan Sabha declared, the local assembly,
04:23 there was a clear cut mandate to the BJP. 122 seats they were there. Of course,
04:30 four parties they have contested independently. BJP, Sena, Congress, NCP, they contested
04:37 separately the election. But even after the results were declared fully in the states,
04:43 say around by 12.30 to 1 o'clock, I myself as the state president and the National General Secretary,
04:48 Mr. Pappul Patil, we announced that we are giving outside support to the BJP.
04:53 So, that started since then. Then Anand Mhats also one time was there in 2016-17.
05:02 Long discussion was there that we need to join the BJP government. Of course,
05:08 I was a witness of that. But I won't say anything in detail about that. But Mr. Ajit Dada,
05:14 he had explained about this in our MET when we had a gathering of our state NCP unit therein.
05:23 And so, even in 2019, you see there was pre-poll alliance between Sena and BJP.
05:32 They contested parliament together. They contested assembly together. We as Congress and Congress,
05:39 we also contested together. It was a pre-poll alliance between all these recognized parties
05:45 in the state. You see, in 2019, the results were declared of the assembly. BJP-Sena alliance,
05:53 they backed about 165 seats together. 105 BJP, there some independence stand.
06:01 Shiv Sena, I think 56-57 and 5-6 there independent MLAs. So, almost 180. So,
06:08 clear cut mandate of the Maharashtra people has given to the BJP and Shiv Sena. But something
06:14 went wrong because of the promises given between whom, between them. Who had promised what,
06:21 I don't know. I don't want to make any comment because we are not a part of that thing. Because
06:26 that was between the BJP and the Sena. And then the new alliance emerged. Had we ever expected
06:33 that Congress, Sunia Gandhi will support Uddhav Thackeray led Sena? That is one thing.
06:41 We always, since NCP form, not only before that, I know because I contested assembly election in
06:51 1985, I lost my very small margin. In 1990, unfortunately, I could not get Congress ticket.
06:58 But even then that time, Shiv Sena and BJP, they had came together. Late Hindu Riddhal Samrat,
07:08 Mahasaheb Thackeray and Pramodji Mahajan, they had their alliance on the basis of the agenda of
07:14 the Hindutva. Since then, the Sena and BJP, they were getting more seats. Earlier, they were having
07:22 very few seats. And since 1990, as you said, as I said, they came together. In 2019, after there
07:32 was a difference, political difference, maybe because of the Chief Minister Shiv, Sena and BJP,
07:39 they were different. So, there were two possibilities. Either BJP and NCP can come
07:44 together and form the government and or what the MUA came there after, that is the Sena,
07:49 Congress and the NCP. And then Uddhav Thackeray led the government. There was the government.
07:56 You see, till now, till 2009, as somebody says, some criticizes that we fought against the BJP
08:07 and the people has given the mandate. Equally, the mandate was given against the Sena. You see,
08:13 whole of the Kulkarni, my whole political life, I contest, I had given the fight with the Sena.
08:20 So, there is no question of why there can be a difference between the BJP and the Sena.
08:25 If we can join the hands with the Sena for the government, for the power. So, now the decision
08:31 consciously taken by the Ajit Dada, along with not only it was his own decision, it was his
08:37 alone decision, seniors, they have given, devoted their political life for the party in last 25
08:44 years and since before that in the Congress, all of us, we sat together and we joined the government
08:52 consciously but keeping our ideology intact. Our ideology, secularism and ideology of Shah
08:58 Abul Ahmed Kar, it is intact. So, joining hands with the BJP in the government has not made any,
09:04 that does not affect any part of our ideology. So, we are going ahead with that. So, it is going on
09:10 well. Absolutely. Sunil ji, but the major issue which is being revolved around this alliance is
09:15 that there has been a threat because of the CBI, EDE and income tax basically raids and also,
09:23 you have compromised, even though you said that secularism is intact, but the BJP has been
09:28 allegedly involved in the communal polarization, pursuing their Hindutva agenda. So, against this
09:34 backdrop, what is your say on this and how are you going to get adjusted with a mighty BJP in
09:41 Maharashtra? You see, I would like to just answer you one question. Higher than Sena has left their
09:48 Hindu... They are also very recently, very, very, very equally or one step ahead than the BJP even.
09:55 But then how the secular parties, so-called secular parties like Congress and the...
10:00 NCP.
10:02 Yeah, of course. I am NCP. So, how they can then have an alliance with that...
10:08 In fact, Sunil ji, you succeeded to get this secularism word in your common program,
10:14 minimum program. That was your achievement. But what you have to say about the Hindutva,
10:19 which is being propagated by BJP, there has been an attack on BJP for communalizing
10:24 the entire political sphere. How are you going to adjust with this kind of a narrative?
10:28 No, you see, when since 1989, in our country or in our state,
10:35 there is a political compulsion, there is no any government without the coalition.
10:44 When the coalition government is being required and the various parties of different ideologies,
10:49 they came together. Even Indian politics, you can observe in 1989, then onwards,
10:54 so 91 to 96, Narsimha Ravijiv was there, the Prime Minister. But not only was Congress,
11:00 those who very hardly, very hardcore opposed to the Congress, they support Congress government.
11:07 You see, 96, 98, 99, these in a span of three years, three parliament elections.
11:15 At that time also, government will form. Then onwards, UPA, then onwards,
11:19 NDA, all these are the Indian now political scenario has changed. Even in Maharashtra,
11:25 see, in 1995, first time Sena-BJP coalition government. Since then, up to today,
11:30 there is a coalition government in Maharashtra. So, ideological different parties came together
11:38 to run the government. It is in our country. Even in the, as we say, I can say, Nitish Kumar,
11:45 he is now the best conveyor for the so-called INDA alliance, India alliance. But he had,
11:52 once upon a time, he had fought with, pre-poll alliance with RJD, Lalu Prasadji. In between,
11:59 he left him and he joined hands with the BJP. Then he contest, he fight the election with BJP
12:05 pre-poll alliance and after two years, he again joined hands with the RJD. It happens. Mamataji
12:11 was also once upon a time the part of the central government in the India. So, it happens in Indian
12:16 politics. So, now why only we are being targeted? When we can join hands with the Sena, that was
12:25 being observed. Okay. That time nobody questioned like this. Now, some people are questioning
12:33 second line, I mean the leadership of some of our colleagues, they are questioning us. Then why we
12:40 can join hands with the Sena that time? Even after Eknath Shinde's, when he left the government,
12:47 all MLAs of NCP, all ministers of NCP, they have signed the letter. They wrote the letter to the
12:54 Honorable President of our sub that we should join the government. Then how it was that time?
13:01 What was the difference between that time? Where that ideology had gone that time? So,
13:06 these are the questions. We at MGRI, taken the conscious decision under the leadership of Ajit
13:12 Dada to take Maharashtra ahead. That is one thing and he is a, see our state is a progressive state.
13:21 Our state has its own identity in the country. So, we thought it is better that we should join
13:30 the hands with the government. So, you have been all the time preaching or Mr. Dada also that we
13:34 have joined because of development, development and development. But do you really feel there
13:38 was a threat from ED, CBI and enquiring agencies and that led and that was a huge compulsion
13:45 basically to join and literally surrender with the BJP? That was a general criticism which we
13:50 have been posing. You see, that is a false one. Not at all true. I explained so many times,
13:57 specially against me and Dada, there were allegations in the government of 2012 and 14
14:03 and who was the key behind that, we know. In which government we were there,
14:08 one who was leading over the government, who was playing all these kind of mischief
14:12 by the Congress. Congress led government that time. I allied very strongly and with the contention
14:19 that today in 2014 to 2019, there was an enquiry by all the agencies. There was never the name of
14:27 Mr. Ajit Dada, never the name of Sunil Thakkar. All agencies have enquired thoroughly on that
14:33 ground. Even some cases were gone to the court and court has also discharged whatever the
14:42 allegations that time they had made in. Mr. Bhushan, okay, he was there behind the bar.
14:48 So, unfortunately, that was also unfortunate for all of us. But then now he is there. So,
14:54 what question of the threat of the agency now? What thing left? Only because of criticizing us,
15:00 this is something is... I mean, giving them some kind of a browning point.
15:06 Okay. Sunil ji, just two, three questions. I know I have to wind up. You are also so busy.
15:12 The obvious question is now on the 6th October, there is going to be the hearing at the election
15:18 commission and very interestingly, your God, your Vitthal, your former president and your,
15:24 you know, the Neta, Mr. Sharath Pawar is going to appear in person before the election commission.
15:31 How do you see this battle is going to take shape and how are you determined to get the party name
15:37 and a symbol? You see, Supreme Court, this constitutional bench recently and the election
15:47 commission, which is, Sonevan body is there and they have given the decision recently. See,
15:55 going through that decisions very thoroughly, I mean, the legally, constitutionally and everything,
16:02 we have gone through it and very consciously, we have taken the decision to join the NDA.
16:09 There is a constitution of our party also NCB is there. So, going through all these aspects
16:15 and consulting the legal experts in these matters and of course, we also know the previous judgment
16:23 given by the constitutional bench, 5 judges bench recently and election commission has also decided.
16:32 So, that is what we say, we have the support of the MLAs. See, this is not a secret paper,
16:39 like an exam one has to go for the 10th standard or the 12th standard. It is an open one. There
16:45 are the marks certainly given for the written exam, for the oral exam and for the ground reality exam.
16:50 So, we are having the maximum support of the MLAs. So, that is the ground reality therein. So,
16:56 whatever is there, so election commission is there. Going through all the details given by us
17:04 and all others, they will take the appropriate decision that is there. Nothing else.
17:08 We are pretty confident of that. Whatever the stake we do have there and past decision given
17:17 by the Supreme Court constitutional bench, we are pretty confident about that.
17:22 So, basically you are going by the number of the legislators that your party claims,
17:26 so you have support of some 43 legislators and also cutting across the office bearers. So,
17:31 we are basically banking on that. Is that so? No, no. You see, why I should disclose right
17:35 now that, you know that majority of the MLAs from the Maharashtra, all MLAs from the Negelland,
17:41 one MLA from the Jharkhand, they have supported Dada. They have taken the conscious decision
17:47 therein and much of the party office bearers also. So, whatever the information needed for that,
17:53 we have already submitted to the Honorable Election Commission. Basing off that,
17:58 you see, it is the practice of that, that election commission go for,
18:01 they will take the appropriate decision. Sunilji, just a very interesting question
18:09 is about what will be the party strategy to consolidate in Maharashtra? You know,
18:13 you have a new avatar. You although claim you are the original NCP. How are you going to take it up?
18:19 How are you going to increase your strength across the state and how are you going to give
18:24 a representation to both the old guards as well as the newcomers and the young faces?
18:29 You see, as I said earlier, since beginning, we are saying that our party is a democratic party
18:35 and there is a democracy in the party always. See, we never choose our leader. Likewise,
18:41 Congress from the upper end, from the Delhi, from the Delhi High Command. I know when I got
18:46 elected twice, second time in 1999 and even 2004, our party leader was chosen among us the MLAs.
18:54 Not even given by the party High Command the name. So, our party is basically democratic.
19:01 This is the democracy. In democracy, you see, the majority always prevails everything. So,
19:09 we have taken the decision democratically. The majority of the MLAs, they feel that we
19:14 should join the government. Maximum numbers of the MLAs. So, that is there.
19:18 But at the state level, how are you going to increase the presence? When the time of
19:24 distribution of the ticket, how are you going to give the representation? How are you going to give
19:29 and treat women because the women bill has passed? Can you just throw a light on this?
19:33 Yeah, this is a good thing that we welcome this bill. After so long waited this bill.
19:39 Many parties, they tried for that but ultimately Narendra Modi ji and his government succeeded to
19:45 passing the bill therein. So, we welcome for that. Of course, deal amendment and everything
19:50 will take place because the number of MLAs and MPs has not been increased for last 40-50 years.
19:55 So, that is naturally being there. So, no one can criticize on that basis why that is not
20:00 since 2004. That takes some time too. There are some procedures are therein. So, those totally
20:08 failure for bringing the women's reservation, now they are criticizing all these things. Anyway,
20:13 that is a different thing. As a party, as NCP, we have our cradle there in the whole of the state.
20:20 But we have to stand on. We are reorganizing. See, Dada is the idol of youth across the Maharashtra.
20:26 He is really idol of the youth. You see, women, there are lot of questions there. Farmers,
20:33 there are some issues are always there coming up. So, I feel under the leadership, dynamic leadership
20:40 of Mr. Ajit Pawar, we will strengthen our party and we will prove in the election. Ultimately,
20:45 party, how much is being strengthened in our democracy is the only barometer,
20:50 how much seats you bag in the government. So, we are pretty confident about that.
20:55 That will go for that. And now, till today, we are not yet discussed at our level that about the
21:03 Parliament election. You see, Assembly election is 2024, September. So, it is almost of a year.
21:10 But Parliament election will come soon. We will sit across the table and we will
21:17 sit on the bhatwar. We will do it well. Sunil ji, are you getting really adjusted
21:21 with, you know, now you are all the time recalling you and Ajit Dada, just praising,
21:26 showering praise on Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Amit Shah. From, you know, Sharath Pawar being
21:33 your idol, your vital and suddenly now you are glorifying Mr. Modi and Amit Shah. Are you really
21:39 getting adjusted, acclimatized with this kind of a political environment now? You see, once in 2019,
21:47 when we accept Uddhavji as the Chief Minister, not only we, but the Congress, Congress led by
21:53 Sunil Gandhi, when they accept, you see, this is a political adjustment. You see, and Narendra
21:59 Modi's leadership is charismatic leadership, no doubt for that. You see, after 1989, the first
22:05 leader in the country on his charismatic leadership, the people of India who did the BJP.
22:12 Of course, we were fighting against that time. I fought against all that odds. I lost my 2014
22:19 election by only 2000. In the Parliament too, lost 2000 votes. Nothing at all that. In 2019,
22:26 the way was double than 2014. I won. So, that is not a question for us. It is a question of the
22:33 country and the country led by him at international, that is the policies. There are so many things
22:42 as we see when Indira Gandhi was there, some all foreign affairs policies and everything,
22:49 she had built up a different, her own, Garima, she had done. Now, Narendra Modi is doing it.
22:57 See, we are born in, our whole political career has gone with certain ideology which we are carrying
23:05 still further. So, that is not a questioning. But right now, as I said in the, since we start
23:12 our dialogue, that now Indian politics or our state politics is alliance politics nowadays.
23:18 You have your own agenda, your own ideology therein, but there is no way,
23:25 as we can see in Indian politics also or even the state politics also. There is no way. So,
23:33 now that is what, because of that, once upon a time, Congress was the master stroke playing in
23:38 the Maharashtra. They were having their own majority all the time. I recall those days.
23:45 You see, 62, 67, 72, 78, of course that Janata Party government, that time it was a slendering,
23:51 then 1980, after Powar Sahib government was dissolved by the Indira,
23:57 led by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, then of course when the Congress came,
24:03 even in 1980 Parliament election also, Congress has won more seats in the Maharashtra. So,
24:08 that is not in 1985, even 1990. So, since then onwards, since 1995, there is a coalition,
24:16 ministry compulsion in Maharashtra. I do not feel how much, at least this election,
24:22 29th election, coalition is there. People's alliance.
24:25 So, what is your view on the Maratha and OBC reservation? This question I have to ask you
24:30 because this is really hotting up and this is really taking a shape in the Maharashtra politics.
24:35 As a veteran leader, what is your say and what is your party stand on this?
24:38 You see, the stand is very clear. The Maratha community should get their reservation,
24:42 but not touching the quota of the OBCs. Since beginning, when party was united,
24:48 that time also the stand was the same. Today also the stand is the same. So, there is the reservation
24:56 for the Maratha community has and has to be given by the government, but it should retain.
25:03 It should not be, I mean, the dismissed by the High Court. So, keeping with the reservation
25:08 policies, the laws, our constitution, likewise that the government has to think for that and
25:14 the OBCs quota, the reservation, that should remain intact.
25:18 But the chorus for this caste-based census is also increasing. Chagan Bujbal has been quite
25:23 at the front of this. Mr. Chatkare, what is your party stand on this? Do you really
25:28 press for caste-based census in Maharashtra?
25:30 No, we will discuss. We feel that it should be like Bihar. I think and I was told,
25:35 and it is best of my memory, in 2011, there was caste-based...
25:40 The census was held, but the report was not released.
25:45 Who was that time in government? Who were leading the government?
25:49 Now some Congress leaders are saying that OBCs are wearing very less, very much less
25:58 faces in the Indian bureaucracy like that. So, why that was kept? Why that was not come
26:07 to the people of India when it was done in 2018? It was an UP government. We are the
26:13 part of the UP government. So, we are equally responsible. Why we should blame India now?
26:19 Absolutely.
26:20 It was there happening in the country, whole of the country.
26:22 Yes.
26:23 That was not even the public, that was not even the knowledge to the people, not even
26:29 the Parliament. So, you see, the people are changing their narratives as per what they
26:37 feel suit for the elections. We should not go, we should not think only for the election.
26:42 We should think for the country and the society always.
26:46 Sunilji, my last question which I am going to conclude is that, within both of your factions,
26:51 some of your leaders still feel that there is definitely a room for a patch-up between
26:56 Sharath Pawar and Ajit Pawar. You have been associated with both the leaders. I know your
27:01 background. Such a groom by Mr. Pawar as well as the former Chief Minister A. R. Antule.
27:07 My God, such a veteran leaders you have worked under. Do you really feel there is a possibility
27:13 of some kind of a patch-up in the coming days?
27:16 Oh, you have left it to the God Almighty. I think I should conclude on this point of a very
27:23 interesting gesture that Mr. Tadkare is leaving this entire question of patch-up and compromise
27:29 between the two groups to the God Almighty. But he has given a lot of insight to the party's
27:35 strategy, what the party is definitely thinking about, the secularism, the Hindutva, and at the
27:41 same time, how they are going to consolidate in Maharashtra to increase its presence while
27:48 remaining with Mahayati, that is BJP, which is a juggernaut and the Shinde Lekshmi Sena.
27:54 Mr. Tadkare, thanks a lot to be with SW News and we are really happy that you have given some kind
28:02 of an insight and with this kind of best wishes, I will conclude this interview. Thanks a lot.
28:07 Thank you very much for giving me such a good opportunity to express my party views
28:12 throughout the country. Thank you.
28:14 Thanks a lot. Thank you.
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