On this episode of Engine Masters presented by AMSOIL
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00:00 You asked for this and we're gonna do it.
00:02 This is a shootout between gasoline and E85.
00:06 (gunshots)
00:08 (dramatic music)
00:28 This is Engine Masters presented by AMSOIL
00:30 and finally we're doing the test that you've asked for.
00:33 It's gonna be gasoline versus E85.
00:36 And I admit I resisted doing this for a long time.
00:39 And here's the reason.
00:40 If you're gonna go to the pump,
00:42 which is what an average guy's gonna do,
00:44 and buy gasoline or buy E85,
00:47 you don't really know what you're getting.
00:49 There are so many different blends of fuels
00:53 depending on location, emissions, time of year.
00:57 And an E85, theoretically, that's 85% ethanol
01:01 and 15% gasoline, but legally it can be as low
01:04 as 70% ethanol and it can be more than E85.
01:08 And so doing a comparison of stuff
01:10 that you pull out of the pump
01:11 is not gonna be representative of what might happen
01:13 in your neighborhood and so it's kind of a worthless test.
01:17 But here's how I solve that.
01:19 We're gonna use Rocket Brand products.
01:21 This is Rocket Brand 114 octane racing fuel.
01:25 It's consistent, you know exactly what you're gonna get
01:28 when you buy this thing anywhere and any time of the year.
01:31 And the same is true for the Rocket Brand E85 racing fuel
01:36 that we're going to use.
01:37 So now we have a level playing field.
01:39 In the gearhead world,
01:40 there's really three markets for E85.
01:43 There's guys with Boost who wanna be able
01:45 to run higher octane on the street.
01:47 Then there's guys who just have a regular hot rod
01:49 that would run on pump gas
01:50 and they just wanna know what E85 would do for them.
01:54 But what we're gonna address is the third category,
01:56 which is like this engine right here.
01:59 It's a big block Chevy.
02:00 It's gonna make 750 or 60 horsepower.
02:03 It's 489 cubic inches.
02:05 And the main thing you need to know about it
02:06 is that it has 13 and a half to one compression,
02:09 so it will not run on pump gas.
02:11 Therefore, you're stuck with race gas
02:13 with an engine like this.
02:14 And what we're gonna show you now
02:15 is what your option might be to run E85 instead
02:19 and find out what the differences are
02:21 and also does it make more power?
02:23 And at the end, we're gonna wrap up this whole show
02:25 with a bunch of considerations
02:27 about how you might run E85 or not.
02:31 So we're gonna go ahead and test it first
02:33 with the Rocket Brand 114 racing fuel
02:36 before we hit it with some of the E85.
02:39 We're gonna head into the dyno and do that right now.
02:41 Amsoil time.
02:44 So this engine is sort of a freak
02:46 because on one hand, it's a street motor
02:48 with a hydraulic roller cam and regular bearing clearances.
02:52 And on the other hand, it has 13 and a half to one compression
02:55 and makes a whole bunch of power.
02:56 So this time, I'm gonna choose the Dominator Racing Oil
02:59 'cause we're not really worried about like,
03:01 you know, drain intervals and things like that.
03:03 On it, it has a high film strength
03:04 that's gonna protect the bearings
03:06 with that high compression.
03:08 And man, I gotta tell you,
03:09 the audience has just disappointed me
03:11 with their demands for an actual funnel.
03:14 Okay, so we have this thing on the dyno
03:20 all ready to run Rocket Brand 114 through it, right?
03:24 - Yeah, it's a 13 to one compression motor.
03:26 It'd get away with 112, but I just feel comfortable
03:28 with 114.
03:29 - So Steve's already got this thing tuned up.
03:33 This thing likes 35 degrees of total ignition advance.
03:36 Well, let's show them the baseline.
03:38 (engine revving)
03:41 (engine revving)
03:44 So our baseline shows 635.6 pound feet of torque
04:07 at 5,700 RPM, and we made 761.5
04:12 all the way up at 6,700 RPM.
04:16 So there's only 1,000 RPM spread there,
04:18 but that's 'cause the torque is real flat in here.
04:21 You hear all the time, higher octane burns slower.
04:25 And that is not the case.
04:28 Octane's a rating to resistance to detonation.
04:31 It does not affect the speed of the flame front.
04:34 And I think it's speed of the flame front
04:36 that changes the optimum ignition timing.
04:38 - Yes.
04:39 - What about the old rule, more fuel, more timing?
04:42 - More fuel, more timing?
04:44 - Bump the cam, tip the mag.
04:45 - Yeah.
04:46 - How about lean is mean?
04:47 - Lean is mean, that's another one.
04:49 Yeah, that is where it's at.
04:51 - There's so many cliches, but really,
04:53 until you start testing it,
04:54 you really don't know what the motor makes.
04:56 It wants whatever makes the most horsepower.
04:58 - Well, I was just digging into sort of this minutia
05:00 that we don't normally talk about on the tuning on the dyno,
05:02 just because I'm really curious to see
05:04 how it changes when we go to the E85.
05:06 So there's our baseline on the power
05:08 and the tune-up on gasoline, 761.5 horsepower.
05:13 We're gonna find out what the E85 does,
05:15 and I don't even know.
05:16 You say it's gonna make more mid-range.
05:18 Do you have any clue?
05:19 - It's gonna make more horsepower.
05:21 - Yeah? - Yes.
05:22 - I'm gonna say it makes more from the starting point
05:24 at 3,500 up through peak torque,
05:26 but I don't think we're gonna see
05:28 a higher peak horsepower number.
05:31 - Okay, ready to pour E85 in it?
05:33 - I, I am.
05:35 I don't like the smell.
05:37 - Really?
05:38 See, I've got no experience with this stuff.
05:39 Does it stink?
05:40 - Smells like dirty socks.
05:41 - Okay, you can handle that.
05:42 Steve and I will change the carburetor.
05:44 How's that? - Perfect, that works.
05:45 This is gonna be the easiest changeover ever.
05:48 First of all, we're gonna drain all of the gasoline
05:51 out of all of our lines
05:52 and replace it with the Rocket brand racing E85
05:55 at 112 octane.
05:57 That part's super simple.
05:59 So is this.
06:00 The carburetor that we ran in the gasoline application
06:03 is from my favorite line of carburetors ever,
06:07 the Holley XP.
06:09 This is a 950 tuned for gasoline.
06:12 And the good news is that Holley offers
06:14 the exact same carburetor tuned for E85.
06:18 It's got the same boosters, the same butterflies,
06:21 the same Venturi, the same radiused entry,
06:23 all of that stuff.
06:24 It's tuned differently
06:26 because there's a different energy in gasoline
06:28 than there is in E85.
06:30 Depending on what the mixtures are that you're getting,
06:33 it's somewhere between a 20 and 30% reduction
06:37 in BTU or potential energy with the E85.
06:42 Because of that, to make up the same power as gasoline,
06:46 you have to run 20 to 30% more fuel.
06:50 And that's what this thing is tuned to do.
06:52 Here's the last thing you need to know.
06:53 When you see us tuning for air fuel ratio in the dyno,
06:56 you gotta know that our meter is calibrated for gasoline
07:00 and will give you a different readout
07:02 when running on E85.
07:04 For example, at peak power,
07:05 the E85 might want a true air fuel ratio of 8.2 to one,
07:09 but because the meter is calculated
07:12 for the different optimum air fuel ratio on gasoline,
07:15 it just reports it in a different scale.
07:17 It's not wrong, it's just a different number.
07:19 Okay, that was really complicated,
07:20 but I know what you really gotta know,
07:22 which is what is the power and tuning differences?
07:24 And that's what we're gonna find right now
07:25 as we go hang this thing on our big black Chevy.
07:29 Yeah, here's the thing.
07:30 I cannot stand it when people use a sealer
07:32 between a carburetor and intake manifold.
07:34 The gasket is good enough.
07:36 Not saying I haven't done it, but you really shouldn't.
07:39 However, if you are using any kind of a sealant
07:42 in an application where there's gas touching it,
07:44 then you do not want to use RTV,
07:47 like the Optimum Gray or Black.
07:49 You also cannot use any anaerobic sealers.
07:53 The Permatex packaging will say anaerobic.
07:55 You can't use that either.
07:56 You want to use a product called either
07:57 Permashield or MotoSeal.
08:00 Those are solvent-based sealants
08:02 and they can handle gasoline.
08:04 But I'm hoping nothing ever has to touch E85.
08:08 It's disgusting.
08:10 We're about to switch to the Holley E85 tuned carburetor,
08:13 but I want to show you a couple things.
08:14 First of all, look how this is actually a Dominator flange
08:18 for like a 4500 series Holley.
08:20 Those carburetors, the XP's are double drilled,
08:22 so you can use either the 4500
08:24 or the smaller 4150 bolt pattern, which is cool.
08:27 Also, this right here is the temperature probe
08:30 that we are using to look at intake manifold temperature.
08:34 When we're talking about ambient in the room 90
08:36 and in the manifold 50 on gasoline,
08:38 that's what's telling us that.
08:40 Throw on that new piece of jewelry.
08:43 That's too nice.
08:44 I've never had an E85 carburetor.
08:46 I mean, neither, I can tell that's what it is
08:47 'cause it says E85.
08:49 - What was the first clue?
08:50 (laughing)
08:51 (upbeat music)
08:53 - E85 power like that.
08:59 Like that.
09:03 This is going to be my first real E85 experience.
09:08 - I really never knew it was this easy
09:10 to become an E85 guy.
09:12 - Just swap the carburetor, you're done.
09:14 Ready?
09:15 - Yeah.
09:15 (engine revving)
09:18 - Okay.
09:37 The black line is the E85 and red is gasoline
09:41 and it's up everywhere through the mid range
09:43 except for right up at the top, it's the same.
09:45 - Yeah, it's within a couple of numbers up here
09:46 and this is what I've seen in the past
09:48 is it makes more torque, but not necessarily more peak.
09:50 - So I'd be inclined to go with the timing.
09:53 - Gonna go put a couple of degrees in, you think?
09:55 - Yeah, I think it needs a little more timing
09:57 with the E85, even though I have no experience
10:00 with it.
10:00 (laughing)
10:01 - And I was saying,
10:02 what would lead you to that conclusion?
10:04 - I think it burns slower.
10:06 - Because?
10:07 - Because it's got a lot of alcohol in it.
10:09 Could be wrong, but that's what I'd go with.
10:13 - That's what you're going with for now.
10:14 - Yeah, and then I think it'll make more power
10:16 than the gasoline too.
10:17 - We can try timing and put a couple degrees in.
10:19 - Sure, try it.
10:20 Okay, we're gonna go stab it a couple degrees
10:23 of total ignition advance.
10:24 (upbeat music)
10:27 Okay, we're gonna see what we get
10:30 with two more degrees of timing.
10:31 (engine revving)
10:34 - No, didn't like that.
10:41 - Looks like it picked up a couple pound feet of torque.
10:43 - Yeah, picked up tiny, tiny, tiny bit.
10:47 That could be oil temperature.
10:49 - We could add a little bit of fuel to the primary,
10:52 just 'cause it's not quite balanced for one,
10:54 just to see if richening it up a little bit,
10:56 if it seems to like that.
10:58 - I was just thinking I'd love to splash
10:59 a little more fuel in it.
11:01 - I think nothing.
11:03 - Let me go do that.
11:05 - You want me to help?
11:06 - We can go do that.
11:07 (dramatic music)
11:09 (engine revving)
11:12 - Here we go.
11:19 (engine revving)
11:22 Same, same traded numbers left and right.
11:37 I mean, it lost a couple pound feet of torque,
11:39 picked up one or two feet.
11:40 - So once again, you're calling out of the box
11:42 almost the magic tune.
11:43 - Well, you know, I think there's a bigger window
11:45 with the E85 than there might be with gasoline.
11:47 It's not quite as sensitive.
11:49 The last one of these I ran,
11:50 it was pretty spiffy right out of the box.
11:52 There wasn't much I could find with it.
11:54 - Who needs EFI and custom tuners
11:56 when you can take a carburetor out of the box
11:57 and slap it on there and be done with it?
11:58 - See, if that were gasoline, four jet sizes,
12:00 you saw what happened when we had done it with gas.
12:02 - Sure.
12:03 - It improved it.
12:04 - Mm-hmm.
12:05 - Well, now.
12:06 - Made not much difference, so it's more insensitive
12:08 to the jetting number change.
12:10 So where do we go from there?
12:11 I mean, I feel like basically we tuned it up on gas
12:15 and it was perfect.
12:16 We took this carburetor out of the box, it was perfect.
12:18 - I know, it feels like we should be doing something to it.
12:20 - Right.
12:21 - But we did and it didn't change anything.
12:25 - I know, salad bowl.
12:27 (laughing)
12:29 - That's the key.
12:30 - That's the fix all?
12:31 - Yeah.
12:32 - Power-wise, there's no downside.
12:34 - No.
12:34 - Right.
12:35 - None whatsoever.
12:36 - What we're looking at here is the black line
12:37 being E85, red line is gasoline.
12:42 And our peak numbers are not very much different.
12:45 So what you really have to pay attention to
12:46 is the difference in area under that curve
12:49 all the way from 3,500 up to 6,000.
12:52 - There's 13 pound feet of difference.
12:54 - Yeah, the E85.
12:55 - Significant.
12:56 - Is better and cheaper and stinks.
12:59 - Race gas smells good, this smells, well, not so good.
13:02 - Let's have a look at the difference
13:04 in intake manifold temperature,
13:05 ambient versus manifold temperature.
13:07 Okay, so all the way up at 6,800 RPM,
13:11 on the E85, we had 87 degrees in the room
13:14 and 47 in the intake manifold, so a 40 degree drop.
13:18 On gasoline, it was 90 in the room and 51.
13:21 It makes me wanna get educated on it more
13:23 and come back and do it on boost
13:24 because I think that is more what the average guy
13:27 is looking to do with it.
13:29 - Well, and I mean, how do you drive a motor
13:30 like this on the street with 13 to one compression?
13:33 - Well, you don't.
13:34 - At 14 or $15 a gallon for race gas
13:36 versus the cost of 91 octane.
13:39 - Yeah, you just made me actually realize
13:42 another benefit of what we just did.
13:44 With the E85, it means you can have a 13 and a half
13:46 to one engine and drive it on the street.
13:48 - Exactly.
13:49 - Ding.
13:50 (laughing)
13:51 - I thought that was the whole point all this time.
13:53 Where have you been?
13:54 - That's why we picked this motor
13:55 because we didn't think it was much of an advantage
13:57 with 10 to one.
13:57 - Well, I was thinking it was more like,
13:59 oh, save money on race gas and find out,
14:01 you know, what the difference is in power.
14:02 But yeah, you can pour the E85 out of a pump
14:06 into your 13 and a half to one motor.
14:08 - Yeah, yeah, that's the big deal for an air shopping motor.
14:10 - All of a sudden it makes sense to live in the Midwest.
14:12 - And you wick up some, you know, like boosted stuff.
14:14 - Yeah.
14:15 - Run the boost way, way up that you can't do on 91 octane
14:17 and you can on this.
14:18 - Yeah, for some reason I got that,
14:20 but the compression didn't.
14:21 - Cylinder pressure.
14:22 - Yeah, my cylinder pressure is leaking out my ear.
14:26 It tells me it's worth learning more about.
14:29 - Yeah, it's good.
14:30 - I guess it'll be a later night than it is
14:32 because we all need to go home and study.
14:34 - Let's get out of here.
14:35 - It's time for the pros and cons of E85,
14:41 but first I have to admit something.
14:43 - Okay, I'm all ears.
14:44 What have you got?
14:45 - Well, if it wasn't obvious to the audience already,
14:48 this is the first time I've ever actually run E85
14:50 in anything.
14:51 - Well, I've got the edge on you, buddy.
14:53 - But the thing is, we went away from my test
14:56 and it gave me a bunch of questions.
14:58 So I was able to go do some research
15:00 and I made notes and I have a list.
15:02 Let's go with pros and cons.
15:04 - All right.
15:05 - You can throw your personal twist into this.
15:07 - I think octane per dollar, the ratio,
15:09 it makes it a great value.
15:11 - I didn't even think of octane per dollar,
15:12 but you're right.
15:13 That's the perfect way to state that.
15:15 So you can get basically high octane race gas on the street.
15:18 So that's pretty good.
15:19 It can be cheaper to buy than gasoline too.
15:22 People think that adds up to being cheaper,
15:24 but it gets worse miles per gallon.
15:26 So I think it just adds out.
15:27 - I completely don't care about fuel economy.
15:29 Let's move on.
15:30 - It's in the wind, who cares?
15:31 Okay, here's the other thing is,
15:33 the tuning window is broader on E85 than it is on gas.
15:38 Meaning you can make the same power
15:39 when you make mistakes on your air fuel ratio.
15:42 And I think what's good about that
15:43 is that the various stuff that comes out of the pump,
15:46 E70 to E90, whatever it is and everything,
15:48 the reason all those guys get away with running boost on it
15:51 is they just run them kind of fat and call it a day
15:53 and it's all happy.
15:53 And I think we saw that a little bit in our tuning.
15:55 I'm out of pros.
15:56 Do you have any more pros?
15:58 Oh, it made more power.
15:59 - It did.
16:00 - Mostly.
16:01 - We can't forget about that.
16:02 That's what we're all about here.
16:03 - So it made what, eight to 10 numbers
16:05 all throughout the curve and then fell off
16:07 and made the same horsepower.
16:08 I think Brulé's got the right theory on that.
16:10 Because you have to run more fuel with E85,
16:14 the fuel droplets are taking up air space.
16:17 - Right.
16:18 - And that would mostly happen at the higher RPM
16:19 when it's pulling most fuel, right?
16:21 - And pulling the most air and the extra fuel
16:23 displaces some of that air.
16:24 - Exactly.
16:25 - Hence less power.
16:26 - And that's probably why it rolls over up there.
16:28 - That's just a random theory, but we could be correct.
16:30 I sense that you've got the cons stacked up like dominoes
16:34 ready to just make your argument.
16:35 - Well, there's just one that I'm really worried about
16:37 all the time.
16:38 - What's that?
16:39 - Corrosion.
16:40 - Oh, that is at the top of my list right after stinks.
16:44 - Ooh.
16:45 - Stuff is gnarly.
16:46 - I didn't think it smelled that bad.
16:47 - So one of the things that it eats really, really bad
16:50 is, like magic, rubber hose.
16:52 Which is why we've got that sponsor Earl's
16:54 who does the vapor guard.
16:55 And that is the whole point of this stuff.
16:58 Is that it is easy to use rubber hose
17:00 that won't eat itself alive like most
17:04 conventional rubber hoses will if you subject it to ethanol.
17:07 Also, did you know that it is corrosive to aluminum?
17:10 - Oh yeah.
17:11 I've tested CC's in aluminum heads with alcohol
17:13 and not dried it off.
17:14 - Oh yeah.
17:15 - And then the next day it's all white powdery corrosion
17:16 fluffing out.
17:17 - Yeah.
17:18 So the other thing is it's hydroscopic.
17:20 And so it absorbs water and then that water separates.
17:23 And so that leads to corrosion in and of itself.
17:26 And think of this.
17:27 If you've got a fuel system that's on the edge
17:30 with gasoline.
17:30 - Good point.
17:31 - Like it's got a 5/16 line on it.
17:33 You just screwed the pooch for E85,
17:35 you're gonna need to upgrade.
17:36 You can need bigger fuel pump, bigger lines,
17:38 all of that stuff.
17:39 So that's just something to think about.
17:41 Oh, here's another one.
17:42 Did you know that the pump version is actually 105 octane?
17:47 - Yeah, I mean you don't know what you're getting though.
17:49 Depending on the alcohol content.
17:51 Maybe higher, maybe lower.
17:52 Maybe they just picked a random number
17:53 and said we'll call it 105.
17:55 - Here's the other thing about it.
17:56 Is even though it's rated at 112 octane,
17:59 it's numbers for the research and motor method
18:02 for the octane rating are offset from gasoline
18:05 in a way that means it's actually susceptible
18:08 to pre-ignition.
18:09 - I'll just take your word for it on that.
18:11 - I mean this is research that I did.
18:13 I read last night some Marlon Davis stories
18:15 and some SAE papers and stuff.
18:16 You need to run a couple ranges cooler on your spark plugs
18:19 if you're gonna run E85.
18:20 And make sure you don't have any like carbon
18:22 or hot spots in your chamber.
18:23 I didn't know this one at all until I read it last night.
18:26 You can't run paper fuel filter with E85.
18:29 - Oh, it'll eat it up?
18:30 - It'll disintegrate.
18:31 You gotta have a stainless steel fuel filter.
18:33 So there's even more expense stacked up.
18:35 And here's the last one that's sort of on that same note.
18:38 If you have an electric fuel pump,
18:39 whether it's submerged or whether it's a horizontal kind,
18:42 the fuel flows around the pump and the motor mechanism
18:47 and lubricates it.
18:49 Well, E85 doesn't have the lubricity of gasoline
18:52 and so you can fubar your electric fuel pump
18:54 even sooner than you normally would.
18:56 Aside from the fact that you're already working it harder
18:58 because it's delivering more fuel.
18:59 - So what's the fix?
19:00 Can you have some additive or something like that
19:02 you can put in your E85?
19:03 - Don't use E85.
19:05 - Huh, I kind of like the E85.
19:07 - What?
19:08 I didn't expect that outcome.
19:10 I have to admit, I think it's really cool
19:11 that you can buy high octane gasoline at the pump for cheap.
19:15 I think it's really cool that it makes power.
19:17 But all of those downsides for me personally,
19:20 add up to no.
19:21 - I like the fact that it's better than Avgas
19:23 at lower price as far as octane.
19:26 So, that's a win. - So you would use it in your car?
19:28 - Yeah, that's a win.
19:29 - You would use it in your car?
19:30 - Oh yeah.
19:31 - Oh, come on.
19:32 - You may not know this, but in science lab in high school,
19:36 my project was converting an engine
19:38 to run on denatured alcohol, which is ethanol.
19:41 - Deve Dolcich invented E85.
19:43 - A pioneer, see?
19:44 - There'll be that and other fun facts to know and tell
19:48 on future episodes of Engine Masters presented by Amsoil.
19:51 - I even got an A on that project.
19:55 - You failed this one.
19:56 (laughing)
19:58 - Did you happen to get a whiff?
20:06 - It's terrible.
20:06 - It's terrible.
20:07 - It is stanky.
20:09 - Ooh, I thought--
20:09 - It smells like Everclear that dirty socks
20:11 have been washed in.
20:12 - Yep.
20:13 - It's gross.
20:14 - I thought it was a pretty tasty smell myself.
20:16 - You would.
20:17 (whooshing)
20:19 you