WINS event - European Women Sport Officiating Forum by EOSE
If you missed our inspiration session yesterday, here's the replay!
Moderator: Gwenda Stevens from World Rowing
Guests: Kateryna Lavryk from Council of Europe #Allinplus, Céline Martin-Schmets from EuroHockey and our Secretary General Charlotte Girard Fabre
NO REF - NO GAME
Womem are the future of officiating
#sportofficial
If you missed our inspiration session yesterday, here's the replay!
Moderator: Gwenda Stevens from World Rowing
Guests: Kateryna Lavryk from Council of Europe #Allinplus, Céline Martin-Schmets from EuroHockey and our Secretary General Charlotte Girard Fabre
NO REF - NO GAME
Womem are the future of officiating
#sportofficial
Category
📚
ÉducationTranscription
00:00 Now we can start with the second part of our event.
00:05 And as you see here, I have three dynamic ladies at my table.
00:09 First of all, I have Charlotte Girard-Fabre.
00:13 She is the Secretary General of the International Federation of Sport Officials and AFCA.
00:18 And also former international referee in ice hockey and referee at Winter Olympics and World Championships.
00:24 Then I have Celine Martin-Schmidt.
00:27 She is an international hockey umpire for men and women.
00:31 And then I have Catharina Lavriek.
00:34 She is representing the Council of Europe Olympus Project and the Council of Europe Sport Division.
00:40 Thank you.
00:42 So, Charlotte and Celine.
00:46 My first question for you both is, and you've just seen who will answer first, so I will not...
00:55 What has been your highlight of your officiating career?
01:01 Oh my gosh. Which career?
01:04 Yes, that's also...
01:07 I'm a former ice hockey referee with six World Championships and two Olympics.
01:12 I'm a national referee for handball and a new international referee for curling.
01:19 So, a long career.
01:24 But I have to confess the best or the highlight of my career is not...
01:32 It wasn't on the ice.
01:34 It was when people called me and said, "You're assigned for Olympic Winter Games."
01:42 This little call changed my life twice.
01:48 In 2014 and in 2018.
01:53 And this moment is really the most intense for me in emotional.
02:01 But for sure to ref a lot of very famous players, male and female, at hockey, in handball, in curling, it's amazing too.
02:14 Michelle, within 20 years you will have some other highlights also, so...
02:19 Hopefully.
02:21 For me, I have a lot of very good moments because every tournament, every moment in hockey is special.
02:31 I didn't have the chance to get that email going to the Olympics yet, so maybe one day I will have that feeling.
02:38 But not yet.
02:40 But I have two highlights.
02:42 I did the semi-final of the Euros, so the European Championship, two years ago.
02:48 In a stadium full of people in the Netherlands.
02:52 It's the country of the hockey, so imagine the atmosphere was amazing going on that pitch with the national anthem.
02:59 Your body is shaking just from the atmosphere.
03:04 And I did last year something very special.
03:06 I had the chance to umpire men at international, top-level hockey club and international team.
03:13 And it makes it feel also special because it's getting more and more in hockey, the gender equality, so I'm lucky and happy to be able to experience that.
03:23 Ah, that's nice.
03:25 Celine, I just want to ask also, at what age did you start officiating?
03:30 I started when I was 15.
03:33 So, 20 years ago, no?
03:36 Less.
03:39 Nationally more than 20 years ago.
03:43 And in international I did my very first tournament in 2007.
03:47 So I've been doing international tournaments for 16 years now.
03:52 And what was your motivation to become an official?
03:56 So I was not very nice with the umpires when I was a kid.
04:01 I loved to know the rules of the game, so I've learned the rules really fast.
04:09 And then I was upset when it was parents umpiring and for sure they knew the rules, but sometimes they were not running fast enough for me or I don't know, seeing good enough.
04:21 So my mom said, "If you think you're better, take the whistle."
04:25 So I did.
04:27 And I still do every week, so I'm still in that.
04:31 Okay, because I'm now looking at the photo of Borine and I think she has a little bit the same.
04:35 Yes, tell me about that.
04:37 I think so, I think so.
04:40 Charlotte, for you, at what age did you start officiating?
04:45 Oh, I started very soon because when you play in the ground at school, not for sport, but you play, I don't know the word in English, but to catch the other, you need a referee.
05:01 So I like that.
05:03 I started very soon, but at school, when I was 11, I realized that the person who never leaves the ground was the referee.
05:17 And I don't want to leave the ground to change to my colleagues, so I stay on the ground, I become a referee and I write many sports when I was young.
05:29 And was that really your main motivation?
05:32 Yes, I think just to keep involved in the game as a player or as a referee, but never leave the ground.
05:41 It's my major motivation, for sure.
05:44 And I was very lucky because I grew up in a female family with my mother and my grandmother.
05:51 My grandmother was a very famous feminist in France and she was very involved in feminist and abortion law and stuff like that.
06:04 So I wasn't, I haven't, how do you call that, the plateau vert, the glass?
06:13 The ceiling.
06:15 Yeah, I never had that, so when I was very young, I said, "I would like to do ice hockey."
06:22 My grandmother said, "Yes, no problem."
06:24 And I had to wait three months, a derogation, to allow me to go on the ice with boys.
06:31 So I began my feminist action very soon.
06:36 You started young, that's good.
06:39 Katerina, what is Council Europe doing in the area of gender equality in sport?
06:45 Well, gender equality is a huge topic for our work, in general, for the whole organisation.
06:51 But specifically for sport, we do it through several ways.
06:54 So one way is through standard setting.
06:56 So we have recommendations for all family member states.
07:00 For example, on gender mainstreaming sport, how to implement it, or again, sexism generally on both ends.
07:07 Another way is through awareness raising activities.
07:10 So for example, every year, on the occasion of Women's Day, we organise a roundtable for women in sport.
07:16 And this year, we had the very big pleasure of having Charlotte sharing with us her testimony.
07:22 And this is something we try to bring in different people and to share on different topics.
07:28 And the biggest, I guess, way is through our flagship gender equality project, All In Plus,
07:34 which is the continuation of the All In Project that took part in 2018-2019.
07:40 And we are very pleased that now the All In Plus also addresses sport officiating to promote gender equality in sport,
07:50 to advance gender equality in sport.
07:52 And as Charlotte mentioned this morning, we have successfully added sport officiating to our indicators.
08:00 And these indicators, they are really the basis of all our work in the All In Plus project.
08:05 So these indicators about leadership, about sport officiating, about coaching, participation, media, gender-based violence,
08:14 and of course, more broadly, gender equality policies and programmes.
08:17 And they underline our work in all three pillars.
08:21 So the first one is data collection, that we contact over 18 countries, and we contact ministries of sport.
08:27 We contact National Olympic and Paralympic Committees and National Federations of Olympic and Paralympic Sports.
08:34 And we will be all asking them questions about all these topics.
08:38 The second one, which is also very much highlighted in the WINS project, is the exchange of good practices.
08:43 So we have a special online library where we contact different countries, not only in Europe, our side,
08:49 and just to ask them what are they doing well, and how we can learn from that,
08:54 and how we can help other people learn from that.
08:57 And our third pillar is the media.
08:59 So we're trying to work with media professionals and through them to improve the coverage of women's sport.
09:06 For example, next month we'll be having an informative session for sports journalists in Lausanne.
09:11 We'll be discussing the portrayal guidelines.
09:14 We'll be discussing safe reporting, how to report on gender-based violence cases in sport.
09:19 We'll be discussing storytelling and many more on the topic.
09:22 Just trying to raise the discussion on these topics and contribute to general activities.
09:27 I'm sure everybody in this room is also trying to do.
09:30 Thank you.
09:32 Charlotte and Céline, I think that you have had, meanwhile, some obstacles in your career as an official.
09:40 But what has been the biggest one?
09:44 I think, I'm not sure it's related to only female or men, but it's getting the trust of the players.
09:56 So as an official, when you go on a field, for me, when you can find a way to get the trust of the player,
10:04 that's when you can really enjoy and they trust you and they go with you.
10:10 But it's a long run before that, so you need to prove in many games, many times, that you can do it.
10:18 And the players are the most difficult to convince.
10:22 Once they're convinced, it's okay.
10:24 But it's really the repetition of good practice and good games and exchange and question with them and open chat.
10:31 I think the openness and the chat with them help really to overcome that.
10:36 But you need to build the trust between you and the players to be able to achieve anything and everything.
10:45 Charlotte?
10:47 I'm more engaged.
10:51 Okay, the first obstacle in my career, all my careers, is sexism, for sure.
11:01 Okay, I play ice hockey, it's not a female sport, it's a men's sport, you know what I mean.
11:09 But it's very hard to get the trust, but simply to go on the ice with guys,
11:18 I've asked Jenny Southern, sorry, about sexism, sexism from the Federation, sexism from my colleagues,
11:28 sexism from players, because I rep for many years, maybe more than 10 years,
11:36 in a high-level professional men's league in France.
11:41 So it depends on the guy you have in front of you, but sexism is the worst,
11:49 and the worst obstacle was my colleagues, my men colleagues.
11:55 Not all, not all, but to be honest, 50% of them are very misogynistic, it's against women.
12:08 "Go to your kitchen" or this is a more sympathetic sentence,
12:16 but sometimes they kick up the ball on my head or try to get injured me before the game,
12:25 because they just would like to be used for the man.
12:31 It was incredible, a lot of, how do you say "menace" in English?
12:38 Threat.
12:39 Threat, about abuse, my car was burned with beach rags on it.
12:51 Yeah, so many obstacles.
12:54 [Laughter]
12:57 I was not feeling it, it feels like it's different.
13:01 As I remember well, Charlotte, it has been at a certain moment, it has exploded, really,
13:09 and that was also your decision to leave as a referee of ice hockey.
13:15 Yeah, when I decided, because I didn't open my mouth for 10 years,
13:22 because I know when I open my mouth, I denounce all things, they will cut my head.
13:30 So after two Olympics, I had the feeling that I had an immunity.
13:39 But no, after my second Olympics in ice hockey, I decided to denounce all the sexist harassment,
13:49 sexist violence against me, but against young girls, young referees,
13:56 and they cut my head.
14:01 Yeah, I was in the top four in the world, but the French Federation cut my head.
14:08 Simply like that.
14:10 They erased my international license.
14:14 So I had two choices.
14:19 First, depressed, so I depressed.
14:22 [Laughter]
14:24 I made a big burnout, but after that, I switched and I moved to Handball with my husband,
14:32 as a gender equality, be known, referee, and we faced another type of sexism.
14:41 Again.
14:42 And we moved to curling, and in curling, everything goes well.
14:46 [Laughter]
14:47 Come to hockey.
14:49 So it's clear that you are passionate about officiating, because otherwise, I think you would say,
14:55 "Okay, never again in any sport."
14:57 No, never again.
14:58 But it's...
14:59 Yeah, for sure, sexism is a big issue to recruit women.
15:07 That's crazy.
15:09 Céline, have you encountered issues of barriers specific to being a woman?
15:15 Not very barriers, but more...
15:21 I don't know how to say that in a politically correct way.
15:24 [Laughter]
15:26 Some more experienced guys want to be with your daddy, so they are...
15:33 [Laughter]
15:35 But they don't want.
15:36 Yeah.
15:37 So I've faced that.
15:39 So in some federations, some countries more than others.
15:43 And not all of the men, because we have a coach empire, men and women, so it's mixed.
15:53 So it's okay with that.
15:55 But some of them, they think because they are more experienced, let's say like that,
16:00 that they have the right to be more comfy with you, even if you don't like it.
16:04 So yeah, it happens.
16:05 And we have faced that recently in the European Championships, so a little bit.
16:12 So I don't think it's worse than at some places.
16:18 And I've never had that in Belgium, to be honest.
16:21 But yeah, some people think that it's okay with the age difference or with the experience,
16:28 that you can be more comfy with you.
16:31 So yeah, it still happens.
16:33 But I think field hockey is not the worst.
16:36 When I listen to your story, I would have stopped many, many years before you.
16:43 I'm not that brave to stay through all of that.
16:46 So I really, that's more my admiration, because I'm not sure I could have done that.
16:52 Otherwise you can change to hockey, yeah?
16:55 Yeah, we are looking for some women.
16:58 And the French don't have any women in the top level hockey.
17:03 Do you have hockey?
17:04 Yes.
17:05 They're going to Paris.
17:06 They're going to Paris.
17:07 They qualified for the Olympics.
17:12 I have six moms.
17:15 She knows the rules.
17:18 She knows the rules.
17:20 And Katerina, how does your work in gender equality address sport officiating?
17:28 Well, in addition to what I've mentioned before, we have our Poland toolkit, which we prepared four years ago,
17:37 but I still find it incredibly relevant.
17:40 It contains very practical tips for decision makers, for policy officers, for managers,
17:46 on how to put in practice gender-miscruint approach in very simple language.
17:52 And it has recommendations that concern sport officiating in relation to finance, funding, human resources,
18:00 equipment, clothing, sports facilities, so all the issues that were mentioned during the previous panel.
18:06 And I would invite you to take a look at it on our website.
18:11 It's at coe.in/olympus.
18:15 And one of the main recommendations that I find crucial in this toolkit is that we need more gender-disaggregated data on sport officials.
18:25 And this is basically the first step for addressing the problem.
18:29 We need to know the gap actually exists, and we need to show people the gap actually exists.
18:34 And this is what we're trying to do with the Olympus.
18:36 So in the questionnaire, we have specific questions about the number of registered officials,
18:42 the number of officials in the elite level, the number of officials in Olympic and Paralympic Games,
18:47 about the existing measures, how to recruit more women in sport officiating,
18:53 and about gender equality in training of sport officiating.
18:56 So these are really important topics that we think should be added, they should be discussed.
19:00 And this is, well, we hope that we can contribute to the field with our efforts as well.
19:05 And of course, we're trying to raise the issue of sport officiating with our partners.
19:10 So when we discuss anything related to gender equality, we ask them,
19:13 "Okay, have you thought about sport officiating? Have you added this? Have you considered this?"
19:18 Because we think we are in a position to do that, and now it is our responsibility to do so.
19:23 It's exactly very important that we have also the data, and we know where we have to work on it.
19:31 Charlotte and Celine, have you ever been treated differently to men who officiate at the same level in your sport?
19:40 Never.
19:41 Never.
19:42 No.
19:43 She wanted to start here.
19:45 Start with the positive.
19:48 No.
19:49 I think it's more difficult in your sport than in mine, but still, I think as a woman, especially in Belgium,
19:57 we need to prove more than the men. So for many, many years, I've been doing men and women games,
20:07 but to get to the next level in men, it took me much longer than some of my colleagues.
20:19 So I think, I feel, but it's not on paper, that as a woman, you need to prove more than your men colleagues.
20:28 Even if you do more sport, even if you run more, even if your fitness is better, if your reading of the game is better,
20:36 I think at the same level, you need to prove a bit more to be able to...
20:41 And I've had that in the last year, reaching a final, it's the same.
20:46 You need to prove double in the semi to be able to get the final.
20:50 That's my feeling, maybe people would tell you otherwise, but...
20:54 Not here.
20:56 But I still believe I'm privileged in field hockey that they let me do that.
21:03 So, no, I'm not the only one at the top men level, there are three women.
21:07 So it's getting better and easier for them, but I had to fight against walls to be able to achieve that.
21:14 So it has been long, because I'm doing that for 15 years, but hopefully now, the people following can get through that wall easier.
21:26 So that's a small achievement, but I'm proud.
21:29 What is the question?
21:35 Yeah, I would say yes, it's different, or not, but at the end it's always discrimination.
21:47 For example, in a lot of federations, you have to reach some fitness tests to obituate at a level.
21:56 And in many, many federations, the fitness test is based on the male level.
22:03 So if you know, maybe you know, female and male are different.
22:11 Really?
22:13 Yeah.
22:14 So sometimes it's very hard to reach the fitness level.
22:19 Another type of discrimination, because we talk about discrimination on this point.
22:25 For a woman who is pregnant, female referees who are pregnant, she will be away from the field for 9 or 12 months.
22:40 It's the same for the male referee, we broke his knee 9 or 12 months away from the field.
22:50 But at the end, a lot of federations take the woman after pregnancy, maternity, and to level under the initial level.
23:03 But for the men, he broke a knee, he restarted the same level.
23:09 So the discrimination is sometimes just institutional.
23:13 But I totally agree with you, we have to make the double to be in the same level.
23:22 So sometimes it's very frustrating or very tiring.
23:26 Tiring, that's the word.
23:28 And sometimes also you need to do double your best to be where you want to be.
23:36 And sometimes they are saying, "Ah yes, but she's..." I will not say the word, but it starts with a B.
23:42 And I'm saying, "Come on!"
23:46 I just would like to add, because Gwenda is an international Olympic umpire in rowing.
23:55 Future Olympic.
23:57 Future Olympic rowing, so good for Paris.
24:01 But she is involved in gender equality in sport shaking, so you are our moderator.
24:09 But you are involved in our fighting.
24:12 And I would just like to add, when we prepare this roundtable, we are looking for a moderator.
24:20 And we had a lot of men names.
24:24 And Gwenda said, "Oh, okay, I accept, but I'm shy, I'm stressed."
24:32 It's normal.
24:34 But without her work, her job, we are the men to talk about women.
24:43 Okay.
24:45 I don't know what to say.
24:47 Thank you Charlotte for your kind words.
24:52 The next question is, what do you think about sport and the organizations?
24:58 What would be the main action to take to make the sport attractive to women officials?
25:05 Just attractive?
25:08 Be sexy?
25:11 On sport level.
25:15 Do you want to answer?
25:17 Okay, go for it.
25:19 On my view, because I'm in the middle of this table, I'm a former referee, I'm a president of the CC of EPAS.
25:31 So I'm in the middle of the field this time.
25:35 And I'm sure the main role of the federation, of the organization, is to have a strong commitment in gender equality.
25:45 As Warren said, if you are not able to give one female name and one name, you don't have anybody at the Olympics.
25:57 It's a start.
26:00 And after that, to recruit, to say, "Hello women, we need more role models."
26:09 We need role models.
26:11 As Jamie, for example.
26:13 Yeah, you are.
26:15 We need visibility in a lot of things.
26:19 But without political commitment, engagement, very strong, we could do everything we want.
26:29 At the end, it's no work.
26:34 Yes.
26:36 You want to say anything?
26:38 As an intergovernmental organization, our work is through the governments of the countries.
26:45 So our approach is very top-down, which is not always very effective.
26:49 But what we can do and what we do do is we push sports officiating on the agenda.
26:54 So we make sure organizations know we are interested in this, and now it also becomes one of their priorities.
26:59 And through this, of course, I really absolutely agree with the raising awareness and visibility.
27:05 For example, we are planning also to create media content, so video clips, about different women in sports.
27:12 And to make them role models.
27:14 Not necessarily the top level, regular women who work in sports in different positions,
27:18 so that people know them and they can relate to them and they think, "Okay, I can be that person."
27:23 So this is something we could do and maybe we should do.
27:26 Okay.
27:28 Jean, do you want to add something?
27:30 Yeah, I think if you see someone doing it, you're going to say, "Okay, I'm not the only one, and I can do it as well."
27:37 But when you feel you are alone and you are the only one, it's even more stressful.
27:43 But if you see, "Oh, look, she's a French, she's a policewoman, and she's also a referee.
27:51 Oh, she's nice and she's always smiling and she can do that."
27:55 So by seeing other people and by showing where a lot of young girls are coming,
28:01 and they are very shy, but they are doing an amazing job, so I think they should be on posters.
28:06 So I used to work at the Belgian Hockey Federation for the women in sports, women umpires.
28:13 And that was my first thing, like make awareness and visibility about those normal women
28:21 who just come every weekend on the field.
28:25 Because in Belgium it's only 20 women umpires in hockey for 300 men.
28:31 So we need more women, but it's difficult because you don't see each other so much.
28:37 And you need to have a whole model.
28:40 And Laurine is one of us, but it's not only top level and going to Olympics.
28:45 You're going every week in every different club and people offer you a drink and say hello
28:53 and recognize that you're going to do an amazing job.
28:56 So it's really awareness and visibility which is the most, I think, action we can do.
29:02 And it's easy. We don't need so much money to do that.
29:05 It's just small actions that can help a lot.
29:09 Exactly, the visibility is really important.
29:13 Because in the time, it's already 5 or 10 years ago, the road rolling,
29:18 and I'm only talking for the athletes, every photo that you saw in brochures or whatever,
29:24 it was always male athletes, always men.
29:28 So now they were thinking also, okay, we want to have more female athletes,
29:33 but then we need also to change the visibility.
29:36 And that's why they now have changing.
29:39 Quite good that you have a little bit, let's say, 50% men photos, let's say,
29:45 I call it like this, and then also 50% of female.
29:49 And I think for the officials it's the same.
29:52 There must be more visibility and also women can be an official.
29:57 So, Katharina, why is it important for the Council of Europe
30:01 to work on gender equality in the Court of Decision?
30:04 Well, the first and the biggest reason for us is that
30:08 gender equality in officiating is a human rights issue.
30:11 So here we speak about the principles of equality and non-discrimination,
30:15 about the access to work, access to education, opportunities for decision-making,
30:21 and the right to be treated with dignity and with respect.
30:25 And this is the primary reason. This is all about it.
30:28 Of course, because it also embodies the core values of our European sports charter
30:34 that Charlotte is intimately aware of.
30:38 And this charter is basically the document that enshrines the protection,
30:44 respect and promotion of human rights of everybody involved in sport.
30:49 And gender equality is one of its main principles.
30:52 And of course, if we speak about dignity and fairness and about realizing human potential in sport,
30:59 we have to make sure that our sporting culture actually reflects Hispanics
31:04 and that we have to ensure that sporting opportunities are equal for everybody,
31:08 regardless of their gender. And this is our rationale behind the All in Plus project.
31:13 Okay, then I have a last question for Charlotte and Sylvie.
31:19 Let's say a little girl is running up to you and she's asking,
31:25 "Hi, I would like to be a great umpire like you. What advice can you give me?"
31:32 What would you say to the girl?
31:34 Go! Hi! No, no! It's just, especially when they are young, they don't have as much fear.
31:43 When I was 15, I was on a pitch with my whistle. I had no fear.
31:47 All those men, they were looking at me like, and I had no fear because what they can do to me?
31:53 They're going to yell at me and so what?
31:55 So I think it's more stressful now than when I was 15, to be honest.
32:00 And I think the biggest step is to try.
32:03 They need to go on that pitch and see that it's possible.
32:07 It's working. They know the rules. They know how to blow the whistle.
32:10 It's just, you go on the pitch and you try.
32:12 And yeah, it's again, visibility. If they see someone doing it, they will want a role model.
32:19 So it's just to be a role model for them and push them to try and to succeed.
32:25 Yeah. It exists. A little girl like that.
32:30 Yes.
32:31 I've seen some. Come on.
32:34 Where is your faith? Come on, give me a clue.
32:37 I'm sure we have a lot of little girls and more and more little girls around the world keep a whistle
32:47 because when you give a whistle to a little girl, you give her the chance to learn to say no, to say stop,
32:57 to learn where is her place in society.
33:02 So it's a main issue. And I'm sure we have more and more girls because we are more and more to take the floor,
33:11 to say, hey, it's not a big deal to be in the middle of the field with a whistle, with a flag, with a...
33:19 I don't know what we're doing.
33:22 [Laughter]
33:24 Silence.
33:27 So I would like to say to her, welcome.
33:32 Welcome. I would like to become your mentor because you don't...
33:39 You need protection, but you need someone just beside you to help you if you need.
33:48 And the second sentence will be, could you introduce me to your parents because I would like to congratulate them.
33:58 It's just about education because it's just about education.
34:03 When the parents yell a lot against referees, you're sure kids not become a referee.
34:13 And if the kid is a woman, oh my gosh, she returns the kitchen.
34:20 So it's about education. It's about our problem, each of us, to say, no, don't yell on the referees.
34:32 It's a human and the human is a woman in 50%.
34:37 So welcome to this little girl.
34:42 Nice. I would like to ask the audience, do you have any questions for Catalina, Celine or Charlotte?
34:51 I have one. Just a short one.
34:55 I couldn't run, so...
34:58 I really love to be here in 25 years with a round table with men, only men,
35:06 explaining how we can be 50/50 now because we have 75% women as a referee and only 25% men.
35:18 So this is my dream in 25 or 30 years.
35:22 In your truck?
35:25 No, the dream is too high.
35:29 One guy says, I have a dream, no?
35:32 Yeah.
35:34 I believe in 20 years we are 50/50, it's happiness.
35:39 Job done.
35:41 50/50 is good enough for me.
35:43 You will have the round table.
35:47 Charlotte, you never want to go back to ice hockey?
35:50 Yeah, I can say it.
35:52 You never want to go back to ice hockey?
35:55 I didn't like.
35:57 Sorry? Did you say?
36:02 I live ice hockey, you know what, and you could find on the web my story in podcast in English too.
36:10 The better English is the subtitle, so...
36:15 But I couldn't go back.
36:19 I cannot go back because for different reasons, because I lost my knees, it's the first one.
36:28 I lost my passion for the sport because the sport...
36:36 How can I say that without crying?
36:42 I had my most beautiful emotion with the sport, with two Olympics, with six World Championships.
36:52 But at the end, the end was so bad for me to go back there because even I had some allies, I had a lot of enemies.
37:08 Because I did something they didn't want to hear.
37:13 Yeah, it's too bad.
37:18 Yeah, it's too bad that it's life and after a big burnout, I get up on my knees.
37:24 I have a knees, but I get up on my knees.
37:27 And I try to do my best in other way, for women hockey shaking, for hockey shaking, for the governance of sport.
37:35 So I would like to say we don't have just one sport or one passion in our life.
37:42 And we could choose to change our way to do the best year after year, day after day.
37:51 Very lucky to have you.
37:54 Yeah.
37:56 Is it that you leave hockey, change something in hockey for a moment?
38:08 Probably not.
38:11 I left in France because the Omerta was organized by another woman.
38:18 She wouldn't want to lose that she bought.
38:27 Because, yeah, she organized the Omerta and it was maybe, it was the hardest thing for me.
38:36 The lack of support by a female referee in ice hockey.
38:41 So never, no, nothing changed in ice hockey in France.
38:49 Sorry to hear that.
38:50 Oh, it's okay.
38:54 Do you have a positive question?
38:59 We have very smiling people around the table, so we have five minutes, so do not hesitate to ask something.
39:08 Positive.
39:09 Positive.
39:11 What you think is positive.
39:14 No, you.
39:15 Me, okay, me.
39:16 There is other sports better.
39:18 No, a lot of things are positive.
39:21 We are here, it's positive.
39:24 And above all, I would like to say I never fight against men because a lot of men are allies.
39:32 And as an example, Patrick Vajda, the president of ISU and AFCAM, gave me the chance to be here today and to be good or not, but he gave me, one day he gave me a chance.
39:48 So sometimes, and maybe often, men are allies of women in gender equality issues.
39:58 Is this positive?
39:59 Yes.
40:02 Okay, then I want to close with a positive, and shout I wish you all the luck in curling.
40:09 Céline, I wish you all the luck for Los Angeles.
40:14 And Katerina, I would say keep on the good work in the Council of Europe.
40:18 Thank you very much.
40:24 We can add something for you for Paris 2024.
40:29 Congratulations.
40:37 I would like to give the floor to Patrick Vajda, the boss of the policy.
40:45 He was an Olympic French referee.
40:49 He is president of AFCAM, and if you don't know who is AFCAM, this is the meeting point of the 238,000 French judges and referees, all sports included.
41:01 And of course, he is our president of IFSO, International Federation for Sports Officials.
41:07 I give you the floor Patrick.
41:08 Thank you very much Melinda.
41:10 I would like to begin by saying thank you to the two rounds.
41:17 You were really fantastic, including Jenny.
41:27 What you did, all of you, was really fantastic.
41:31 I learned a lot, even if I work on this area since more than 25 years.
41:37 I already learn a lot every day about women and women as a referee.
41:46 I just would like to say two or three sentences.
41:50 I heard a very short time ago, a French coach saying to a football during a match of the first division in front of the TV,
42:03 with something like two or three million people looking at the TV,
42:08 say to a woman referee, "You are much better in your kitchen."
42:13 It took six matches without the authorization to be on the ground.
42:20 Six matches, it's nothing.
42:22 Because you have a radio, you have Zoom, you have Steam, so it can inform everybody.
42:26 So it's nothing.
42:28 Another thing is when I heard, I do not remember who said that,
42:33 but I have the impression, and I told you also this morning, that referees sometimes are slaves.
42:43 Referees in general.
42:45 But women referees are more slaves than the men.
42:50 So for me, it's really the situation of the referee and the situation of the women referee is really unacceptable.
42:59 Well, so some good points.
43:01 First of all, what Tom said about the number of women who complete the questionnaire.
43:12 3,264 women referees.
43:16 This is incredible and fantastic.
43:19 With 64 countries, which is another point, totally fantastic.
43:23 But I am a little nervous about the results.
43:29 78% agree that they receive the exact same treatment than the men.
43:37 I cannot believe it.
43:39 Frankly speaking, I cannot believe it.
43:41 Or they do not know what means the same treatment because they don't know the treatment for the men.
43:49 So I am really surprised by this 78% and I am really not in agreement with that.
43:58 Another point which was also very important is the mentoring.
44:03 It's really important to understand what it means and particularly for the referees.
44:09 Mentoring for us, men or women, or women or men, it's really, I can say, an important rule.
44:18 Because we do not have the confidence of the others.
44:22 We do not have the confidence of the players.
44:24 Sometimes, yes.
44:25 But in the majority of the cases, they say it is the fault of the referee.
44:29 Which is a very easy answer when you lose the match.
44:33 Nevertheless, when you have a mentor with you, working with you, and able to explain,
44:40 you do something well or you do something not perfect because you have to improve this and that.
44:48 This is a really fantastic methodology and it's particularly true for the women.
44:54 It's not, when I say particularly true, it's because in general, we have men in front of women.
45:02 And I think it's not the right solution.
45:04 We need women in front of women.
45:07 Why?
45:08 Because the questions asked by the women referees to their mentors are totally different,
45:14 totally psychologically different than what the men are doing with men referees.
45:22 So it's important to have a mentor as a woman first.
45:27 It's important to have also, how is it, women at the very highest level,
45:35 who are able to continue to explain to the young referees what they have to do if they want to reach this level.
45:43 This is really, don't stop your career.
45:46 I talked about Celine, where is Celine?
45:50 Oh, sorry.
45:52 Don't stop.
45:54 When you finish your career, because unfortunately, one day you will finish, continue as a mentor,
46:00 continue to help the younger women, it's very important.
46:05 So for me, the mentor is really somebody able to evaluate and to say the truth to you.
46:12 Somebody able to have your confidence, a woman who is confident in or with you.
46:18 Somebody who is able to delete the barriers you have naturally.
46:25 Somebody also able to give you some facilities in order to free power.
46:31 25 years ago when we began in this area, the worst case was, as I think Charlotte explained,
46:40 no dressing room for women, no dress for women referees.
46:45 Now in France, because of what we began 25 years ago, now we are on the right way.
46:51 Not totally perfect, but we are on the right way.
46:55 So this type of question, if a young referee is going to the federation or to the club,
47:01 saying where is my right shirt, this young referee will have a very short career.
47:08 I can't tell you.
47:09 But if the mentor is doing this, but this pyramid will change and we will continue to the road,
47:17 to the very high level, and particularly at the Olympic level, or the world championship level,
47:23 or international level, we have only 17% women and the other are men.
47:31 So 70, from 50 to 70.
47:34 Just because we lost a lot of young girls during this long road from the beginning to the international level.
47:43 Why?
47:44 This is a very important question and perhaps this will be the topic of our next round table,
47:50 or our next ERS+ project.
47:54 But it's very important and the solution, we have a solution, no we don't have a solution.
48:00 We know that a solution exists, particularly if we are able to keep these young referees
48:08 coming from the scholar level, if we are able to keep these young women with us for a long time,
48:18 and to explain to the federation that they are coming from the scholar federation
48:24 and they have now to work at the federal level.
48:27 Why do you not use these young women?
48:32 And we don't know the answer for the moment, but it's true that when the young ladies are coming from
48:40 the scholar to what we call the federal level, we lost certainly about 25%.
48:48 So it means we lost 50% of the entire world.
48:53 And just to finish, the most important, I don't want to use the word lessons, but perhaps it's a lesson for all of us,
49:07 including me, it's very important to have a very young woman referee and referees in general.
49:16 They have to begin very, very young. As Charlotte said, when you begin, you learn how to say no.
49:24 You learn how to take a decision. You know to impose your view, to explain that because you are in this position,
49:32 you have to be listened and the people in front of you have to respect your decision.
49:40 So when you begin that very, very, very young, it's easier to progress for you and the noise of the spectators
49:50 or the coach has no impact on you. And this is really the important thing.
49:57 Ask the young lady or the young referees to begin as young as possible.
50:03 This is the best way to have more women and also the best way to keep more women.
50:08 Because if we have more women at the beginning, at the end we will have more women also.
50:13 So thank you for what everybody is doing. Thank you for the people who worked on the wins.
50:21 The group was fantastic and the results were very amazing and it's the first time you did it.
50:29 It's the first time that somebody worked on this particular topic. So thank you very much for what you have done.
50:39 Thank you also Pandora for your help. Pandora, thank you.
50:46 And it was really a pleasure to have you on board and the work you have done was really fantastic.
50:56 Thank you Wenda and you will have the last word.
51:02 Thank you Patrick. Exactly, we are coming to the end of our event.
51:09 I just would like to thank Tom for his short, medium and long term recommendations and insights. Thank you.
51:17 I would also like to thank Jolanda for the Dutch case study.
51:22 And also Janie for her online toolkit that was very powerful.
51:30 And I would like to thank Charlotte and Celine for the inspiring stories.
51:35 I would also like to thank Catalina for her support through Council of Europe.
51:40 And I will also thank Patrick Vajda because I admired always your passion about officiating.
51:49 So I think it will be very hard for next year to have another president.
51:53 So I would ask you, please think about it.
51:58 Two years, come on, just think about it.
52:05 And then I have only my last three points.
52:09 And let's say the first point is, a wise sentence is, collect data of your empires.
52:16 This is very important.
52:19 And the second one, share your knowledge.
52:22 And then the third one, just be sure that you have your book with you.
52:28 Because each of you will find interesting points that you can use on your own work domain.
52:34 I would say now, have a safe trip back home and let's keep in touch. Thank you.
52:39 [Applause]