Le Génocide au Rwanda compte environ 800 000 morts parmi le peuple Tutsi. Pourtant tous les génocidaires n'ont pas été retrouvés ni jugés. En effet un exil massif leur a permis de se créer une nouvelle identité et recommencer une vie, ailleurs. En France plusieurs associations alertent sur leur présence et la nécessité qu'ils passent devant la justice, malheureusement les longues procédures ralentissent les jugements. Jean-Pierre Gratien et ses invités se demanderont alors ce que deviennent les génocidaires réfugiés en France, en Europe et dans le monde entier et s'ils pourront tous être jugés un jour.Pour en débattre, Dafroza Gauthier cofondatrice du Collectif des parties civiles pour le Rwanda, Éric Emeraux colonel, ancien chef de l'Office central de lutte contre les crimes contre l'humanité, les génocides et les crimes de guerre (OCLCH) et Laurent Larcher journaliste et essayiste.LCP fait la part belle à l'écriture documentaire en prime time. Ce rendez-vous offre une approche différenciée des réalités politiques, économiques, sociales ou mondiales....autant de thématiques qui invitent à prolonger le documentaire à l'occasion d'un débat animé par Jean-Pierre Gratien, en présence de parlementaires, acteurs de notre société et experts.
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00:00:00 Générique
00:00:01 ...
00:00:15 -Bienvenue à tous.
00:00:16 Il serait nombreux, très nombreux, à se tairer quelque part en France.
00:00:20 Débat d'oct' s'intéresse au criminel du génocide de Rwanda,
00:00:24 avec, pour commencer, un documentaire exclusif,
00:00:27 "Rwanda, à la poursuite des génocidaires",
00:00:30 réalisé par Tonas Riby et Stéphane Joubert.
00:00:33 En 1994, Daphroza Gauthier a vu sa famille,
00:00:36 en grande partie, assassinée durant le génocide rwandais.
00:00:39 Depuis, avec Alain, son mari,
00:00:41 elle n'a eu de cesse d'enquêter sur ceux qui ont participé à ces crimes
00:00:45 et qui se sont réfugiés dans notre pays
00:00:48 pour qu'ils y soient jugés.
00:00:50 La suite est à découvrir avec ce film,
00:00:52 puis Daphroza Gauthier sera avec nous sur ce plateau,
00:00:56 en compagnie du journaliste Laurent Larcher
00:00:58 et de l'ancien chef de l'Office central de lutte contre les crimes,
00:01:02 contre l'humanité, les génocides et les crimes de guerre,
00:01:06 Eric Emeraud.
00:01:07 Avec eux, nous ferons le point sur la traque mise en oeuvre
00:01:10 pour juger les génocidaires rwandais.
00:01:12 Bon doc.
00:01:13 ...
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00:01:33 -Ce qui nous anime, c'est véritablement redonner
00:01:37 une place aux victimes.
00:01:40 Le procès, c'est ce qui va rendre rescapé
00:01:43 la dignité qu'ils ont perdue pendant ce génocide.
00:01:47 ...
00:01:55 ...
00:02:03 -Je suis toujours fébrile aujourd'hui.
00:02:06 J'attends toujours les jurés avec impatience.
00:02:09 C'est toujours la même question qui m'en hante.
00:02:12 Est-ce qu'ils vont comprendre cette histoire ?
00:02:15 ...
00:02:19 -30 ans après la guerre civile au Rwanda,
00:02:21 le génocide des Tutsi,
00:02:23 entre 800 000 et 1 million de morts,
00:02:25 un ancien gendarme rwandais est jugé par la cour d'assise de Paris.
00:02:29 L'ex-militaire, aujourd'hui âgé de 66 ans,
00:02:31 est accusé de crimes qu'il nie formellement.
00:02:34 ...
00:02:39 ...
00:02:44 -C'est trop gros, là.
00:02:45 Il m'a dit qu'il m'avait fait,
00:02:47 qu'il avait acheté le vrai,
00:02:48 qu'il avait acheté le vrai,
00:02:50 qu'il me l'avait laissé à moi.
00:02:52 ...
00:03:03 -Je m'appelle Dafroza Gauthier, mon carabinière.
00:03:06 Je suis née au Rwanda, il y a très longtemps, déjà.
00:03:09 J'habite à Reims aussi depuis une petite quarantaine d'années.
00:03:14 ...
00:03:17 J'ai trois enfants.
00:03:18 J'ai un mari, Alain Gauthier.
00:03:21 Et notre histoire est directement, malheureusement,
00:03:26 liée au génocide.
00:03:27 ...
00:03:32 -Nous, notre objectif, c'est de poursuivre en justice
00:03:36 les personnes qui sont soupçonnées d'avoir participé
00:03:39 au génocide perpétré contre les Tutsis du Rwanda
00:03:43 et qui se trouvent sur le territoire français.
00:03:46 ...
00:03:49 Quand on s'est embarqués dans ce combat pour la justice,
00:03:52 on ne pensait pas que ça allait nous engager
00:03:55 comme ça, à ce point-là.
00:03:57 ...
00:03:59 Depuis 94, nous n'avons pas passé une journée
00:04:03 sans parler du génocide,
00:04:06 sans évoquer la vie des rescapés
00:04:09 ou la poursuite des génocidaires.
00:04:12 ...
00:04:18 ...
00:04:41 Ce que nous faisons, c'est de prendre notre bâton de pelerin,
00:04:46 d'aller au Rwanda,
00:04:47 interroger les vivants, les survivants, quand il y en a,
00:04:51 ou interroger les habitants du lieu.
00:04:53 ...
00:04:55 Si on veut que ces génocidaires présumés
00:04:59 comparaissent devant la justice,
00:05:01 on n'a pas d'autre choix, en fait.
00:05:03 ...
00:05:12 -Bigouma, c'était un adjuge en chef
00:05:15 d'Agnanza, dans le sud du Rwanda.
00:05:18 ...
00:05:24 Agnanza, on évoque la mort de 90 000 personnes.
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00:05:30 Et Bigouma est mêlée à la majorité de ces crimes.
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00:16:26 -Début de l'année 94, je pense que ma mère a commencé à...
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00:22:50 - They are well kept.
00:22:53 - Yes, the coffins.
00:22:56 - Yes, the coffins.
00:22:58 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:01 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:04 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:07 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:10 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:13 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:16 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:19 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:22 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:25 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:27 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:30 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:33 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:36 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:39 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:42 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:45 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:48 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:51 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:54 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:56 - Yes, the coffins.
00:23:59 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:02 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:05 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:08 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:11 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:14 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:17 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:20 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:23 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:25 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:28 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:31 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:34 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:37 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:40 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:43 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:46 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:49 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:52 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:54 - Yes, the coffins.
00:24:57 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:00 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:03 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:06 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:09 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:12 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:15 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:18 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:21 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:23 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:26 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:29 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:32 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:35 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:38 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:41 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:44 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:47 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:50 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:52 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:55 - Yes, the coffins.
00:25:58 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:01 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:04 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:07 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:10 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:13 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:16 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:19 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:21 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:24 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:27 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:30 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:33 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:36 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:39 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:42 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:45 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:48 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:50 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:53 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:56 - Yes, the coffins.
00:26:59 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:02 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:05 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:08 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:11 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:14 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:17 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:19 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:22 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:25 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:28 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:31 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:34 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:37 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:40 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:43 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:46 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:48 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:51 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:54 - Yes, the coffins.
00:27:57 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:00 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:03 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:06 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:09 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:12 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:15 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:17 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:20 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:23 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:26 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:29 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:32 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:35 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:38 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:41 - Yes, the coffins.
00:28:45 - Alain loves the goats.
00:28:47 - You see, since 1994, I have a phobia.
00:28:54 In 1994, the birds gave me joy.
00:28:59 They kept eating our bodies.
00:29:03 In another trauma, you immediately think about it.
00:29:12 You don't think about the beauty of the birds.
00:29:15 I don't see a bird as a poet.
00:29:19 It's sad.
00:29:22 - A genocide never succeeds completely.
00:29:30 There are always survivors.
00:29:33 These survivors are there to witness what happened.
00:29:39 Everything is based on testimonies in the Tutsi genocide.
00:29:43 Many written documents have been destroyed.
00:29:49 For 30 years, many witnesses have disappeared.
00:29:53 If we don't collect these testimonies,
00:29:56 we won't be able to organize trials in France.
00:30:00 So there is an emergency.
00:30:04 - It's a very beautiful bird.
00:30:06 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:09 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:12 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:15 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:18 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:21 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:24 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:27 - It's a beautiful bird.
00:30:31 - It's a region inhabited by many Tutsis.
00:30:34 There are hills where there were only Tutsis.
00:30:37 Today, unfortunately, there are no more Tutsis.
00:30:41 - It's beautiful.
00:31:00 - It's beautiful.
00:31:02 - It's beautiful.
00:31:05 - It's beautiful.
00:31:08 - It's beautiful.
00:31:11 - It's beautiful.
00:31:14 - It's beautiful.
00:31:17 - I don't know if I can say it,
00:31:29 but I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:32 I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:36 I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:40 I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:44 I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:48 I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:52 I'm very happy to be here.
00:31:57 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:00 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:04 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:08 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:12 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:16 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:20 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:25 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:28 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:32 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:36 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:40 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:44 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:48 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:53 I'm very happy to be here.
00:32:56 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:00 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:04 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:08 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:12 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:16 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:21 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:24 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:28 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:32 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:36 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:40 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:44 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:49 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:52 I'm very happy to be here.
00:33:56 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:00 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:04 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:08 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:12 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:17 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:20 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:24 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:28 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:32 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:36 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:40 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:45 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:48 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:52 I'm very happy to be here.
00:34:56 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:00 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:04 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:08 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:13 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:16 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:19 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:23 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:27 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:31 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:35 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:39 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:44 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:47 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:51 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:55 I'm very happy to be here.
00:35:59 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:03 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:07 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:12 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:15 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:19 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:23 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:27 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:31 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:35 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:40 I'm very happy to be here.
00:36:44 France is the only country that refuses to extradite these people to Rwanda,
00:36:51 where they would have already been tried.
00:36:55 The number of cases that are being filed at the judges' office is not enough.
00:37:01 We have been denouncing the unbearable slowness of the victims for 25 years.
00:37:11 In 2015, we received an anonymous letter denouncing Bigouma.
00:37:17 He worked at the University of Rennes as a security officer.
00:37:22 So we immediately seized this case.
00:37:28 The survivors are not the ones with the most views.
00:37:32 That is to say that a survivor is either hidden in a mouse hole,
00:37:39 or he was hidden in a place where he could not be seen.
00:37:44 He is either a victim of a crime,
00:37:49 or he is a victim of a crime committed by a criminal.
00:37:55 Or he was hidden in a shelter of a benefactor.
00:37:59 But we need the witnesses of the killers.
00:38:11 Because they are the ones who know.
00:38:16 Rwanda, Rwanda
00:38:20 You know, going to jail is not that easy,
00:38:40 when you know that he lives there.
00:38:44 - What's your name? - Alain.
00:38:46 - And you? - Alain Gauthier.
00:38:49 - Does he agree to talk? - Yes, he agrees to talk.
00:38:53 - To talk about the genocide here in Ayanza? - Yes, about the genocide.
00:38:58 We are here in Ayanza.
00:39:07 We are here to talk about the genocide in France.
00:39:17 - In France? - Yes, we are here to talk about it.
00:39:21 We are here to talk about the genocide in Pigouma.
00:39:26 - In Pigouma? - Yes.
00:39:28 - In Agida. - Yes, in Agida.
00:39:32 - In Mounzi. - In Mounzi?
00:39:36 - Yes. - Yes?
00:39:37 - Yes, I was in the police station.
00:39:40 I was in Pigouma,
00:39:43 I was in the police station.
00:39:47 I was in the police station.
00:39:50 I was in the police station.
00:39:54 I was in the police station.
00:39:58 I was in the police station.
00:40:05 I was in the police station.
00:40:08 I was in the police station.
00:40:12 I was in the police station.
00:40:16 - In the police station? - Yes, in the police station.
00:40:20 I was in the police station.
00:40:24 - You were in the police station? - Yes, I was in the police station.
00:40:28 - I was in the police station. - Yes.
00:40:30 Whether they lie to you or not, you should ask them.
00:40:40 You will understand something if you just hear a sentence.
00:40:46 In Pigouma, in Agida and Mounzi,
00:40:56 there is a saying,
00:40:58 "If you don't know the meaning of the sentence,
00:41:02 you will not be able to understand it."
00:41:06 In Pigouma, in the village of Pigouma,
00:41:10 there is a saying,
00:41:14 "If you don't know the meaning of the sentence,
00:41:18 you will not be able to understand it."
00:41:23 - In Pigouma, in the village of Pigouma,
00:41:26 there is a saying,
00:41:30 "If you don't know the meaning of the sentence,
00:41:34 you will not be able to understand it."
00:41:38 - In Pigouma, in the village of Pigouma,
00:41:42 there is a saying,
00:41:46 "If you don't know the meaning of the sentence,
00:41:51 you will not be able to understand it."
00:41:54 - In Pigouma, in the village of Pigouma,
00:41:58 there is a saying,
00:42:02 "If you don't know the meaning of the sentence,
00:42:06 you will not be able to understand it."
00:42:10 - In Pigouma, in the village of Pigouma,
00:42:14 there is a saying,
00:42:19 "If you don't know the meaning of the sentence,
00:42:22 you will not be able to understand it."
00:42:26 - He only released negative vibes.
00:42:29 - I wanted to tell him to shut up,
00:42:33 but he kept going.
00:42:37 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:42:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:42:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:42:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:42:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:42:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:05 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:33 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:43:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:01 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:29 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:44:57 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:25 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:53 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:45:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:21 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:49 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:46:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:17 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:45 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:47:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:13 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:41 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:48:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:09 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:37 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:49:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:05 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:33 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:50:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:01 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:29 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:51:57 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:25 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:53 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:52:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:21 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:49 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:53:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:12 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:17 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:40 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:45 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:52 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:54:56 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:00 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:04 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:08 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:13 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:16 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:20 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:24 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:28 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:32 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:36 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:41 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:44 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
00:55:48 - I'm going to the village of Pigouma.
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01:06:08 - This extract is here to show what your work with this collective is about.
01:06:12 - It's about gathering testimonies, finding witnesses,
01:06:16 - and then, in the long run, bringing these witnesses to a trial in France,
01:06:20 - as will be the case for Pigouma.
01:06:24 - It's extremely difficult to do this work, to find witnesses, to collect testimonies.
01:06:28 - Explain to us the difficulty of the work you have to do at this stage.
01:06:34 - It's a work, I was going to say, ungrateful.
01:06:37 - It's a work where you can't rest once you're on a killer's trail or on a case.
01:06:42 - You have to keep moving forward, you have to look for witnesses,
01:06:47 - you have to go there, you have to come back, you have to go back,
01:06:52 - see others, hear what they have testified on the phone,
01:06:57 - and then, you have to go back to the place where you were.
01:07:03 - Sometimes, on the phone, they alert us,
01:07:06 - which we haven't seen before.
01:07:09 - It's really a long-term work.
01:07:14 - And we're almost 30 years after the facts.
01:07:18 - I imagine it only makes your action more complicated.
01:07:22 - Naturally, I think that soon we won't be able to go to trial at all,
01:07:27 - since the witnesses are disappearing,
01:07:32 - because, yes, quite simply,
01:07:35 - since the witnesses are disappearing,
01:07:38 - since everything is based on the testimony about our trials.
01:07:42 - So there are no screams, or very, very, very few.
01:07:46 - And in this, unfortunately, we will have to stop.
01:07:51 - Since the creation of your collective, how many times have you gone to Rwanda
01:07:56 - to collect these testimonies, convince these witnesses,
01:08:01 - during trials in France?
01:08:03 - Well, there weren't many trials.
01:08:08 - No, there were very few.
01:08:10 - There were six, so far, including three definitive sentences.
01:08:14 - And each time you went there?
01:08:16 - That is to say that a file, sometimes, it's at least ten trips.
01:08:21 - At least ten trips, if not more.
01:08:24 - But what we do is, we sometimes combine two, three,
01:08:29 - which is very advanced, we work on the next one, on the other,
01:08:33 - but generally, we focus now that there are trials,
01:08:37 - we focus on the trial to come.
01:08:39 - Today, we have one in November, so we are focused on that one.
01:08:44 - But also, we think about the one that will happen next year.
01:08:48 - So, no, it's a pretty hard job, it's not obvious.
01:08:54 - On this track, maybe on our French territory,
01:08:58 - because that's what interests us the most, those who are watching us today,
01:09:02 - where are they hiding? How are they hiding? How do we find them?
01:09:06 - Are they a bit of a "Mr. Everyone" today?
01:09:09 - When did they, for the most part, arrive in France?
01:09:12 - I saw that at the beginning of the 2000s, we saw, we would have seen,
01:09:16 - a certain number of them taking refuge in France.
01:09:18 - What can you tell us about that?
01:09:21 - Well, in fact, most of them wear the camouflage of the model citizen,
01:09:27 - that is to say that their goal is above all not to make waves, to stay under the radar.
01:09:32 - And so, it's true that the work of the CPCR is essential for us,
01:09:36 - because they do this detection work both in Rwanda, but of course in France,
01:09:41 - and that we, our base of skills, it is registered from the moment the individual is in France.
01:09:49 - Once we started this track, it was the case for Bigouma,
01:09:54 - so on the basis of all the elements, the testimonies that are victims,
01:09:57 - also authors who are collected by the CPCR, we will take everything back.
01:10:02 - That is to say that our goal is to transform the trial,
01:10:05 - transform the trial of all this work that is done by NGOs,
01:10:09 - because it's true for Rwanda, it's true for Liberia, it's true for Syria.
01:10:12 - And so, once we have determined the positioning of the individual in France,
01:10:18 - we will work on a traditional judicial inquiry,
01:10:22 - which will basically put into operation, work in three environments.
01:10:25 - A physical environment, a digital environment and a financial environment.
01:10:30 - So on the physical environment, we use all the traditional investigation techniques
01:10:35 - that we have, that the law gives us in terms of anti-terrorist struggle, for example.
01:10:40 - So that means phone calls, surveillance, filings, soundproofing,
01:10:44 - in fact, everything we need.
01:10:46 - And then, of course, we will also confront all these elements
01:10:51 - with the current digital environment, which is very important,
01:10:53 - since everyone uses phones, everyone uses the Internet,
01:10:56 - so we sweep all that away.
01:10:59 - And finally, the financial environment.
01:11:01 - And it is thanks to the financial environment that we were able to detect Bigouma,
01:11:06 - who was hiding in Cameroon, because for once,
01:11:09 - we are also making round trips between France and Rwanda.
01:11:12 - And when we go to Rwanda, of course, we start to hear testimonies of victims.
01:11:16 - And there may be a leak in our files.
01:11:20 - But that's what happened. Basically, he left France.
01:11:23 - So on the surveillance work of his family,
01:11:26 - we were able to quickly see that there were Western Union,
01:11:30 - financial flows that were going to Cameroon.
01:11:33 - And since we are, we are part of a narrow international cooperation logic
01:11:37 - with Europol, Eurojust, and then the different structures of the UN that you mentioned.
01:11:42 - Because the hunting ground is international.
01:11:44 - It is international and that without cooperation, already simple like that,
01:11:49 - it would be complicated and without cooperation, it would be impossible.
01:11:51 - And there, on the basis of these elements, we were able to know
01:11:54 - what the financial flows were and to know that he was actually positioned in Cameroon.
01:11:59 - So afterwards, we just have to place alerts and bells on his family.
01:12:04 - And then when we realized that there was a movement that was possible by his wife,
01:12:10 - since she was going to take the plane,
01:12:12 - we just had to put a welcoming committee in connection with international cooperation
01:12:18 - and the international arrest warrants that were issued in his favor.
01:12:20 - And so from there, he was arrested on the spot at the airport when he came to pick up his wife.
01:12:24 - And brought back home in France.
01:12:26 - So after that, he stayed for a long time in Cameroon in temporary detention.
01:12:30 - And then, indeed, he was extradited to France to be judged.
01:12:36 - Laurent Larcher, are there any branches that have allowed these Rwandan genociders to infiltrate France?
01:12:46 - So it's very difficult to investigate on this issue.
01:12:50 - There is such a blur, such a...
01:12:52 - You just heard, I didn't know, there were even leaks
01:12:55 - even within those who are in charge of investigating these genociders.
01:12:59 - So you can imagine a little bit the... I would say the fog that surrounds all this.
01:13:04 - So then, yes, we can imagine that there are obviously branches.
01:13:07 - What are these branches that we can imagine?
01:13:10 - So, well, we can imagine that there are already branches of friendly relations.
01:13:15 - So, to take the case of France, people who have worked in Rwanda or who have worked on the Rwandan file,
01:13:20 - who have established personal relations with each other and who feel a form of loyalty towards each other.
01:13:26 - So they will shake hands.
01:13:28 - We are also talking about a Catholic branch. Does it exist? And why?
01:13:32 - It is also obvious, this is another aspect of the file, that there are also Catholics among the genociders.
01:13:41 - And that the Catholic Church in Rwanda, but also in its relationship with other churches,
01:13:47 - and in particular with the French Church, there are things there, yes, there have been contacts.
01:13:53 - I think that, I don't know if they are branches, but at least movements like the Catholic Aid, maybe, or the CCFD.
01:14:02 - So I'm not saying that they are instituted branches, because it's a very serious accusation.
01:14:08 - But there have undoubtedly been bias, facilities, once again for questions of loyalty,
01:14:13 - also people who did not understand what had happened or who shared the vision of the time, of Abiyarimana,
01:14:22 - who felt that the Hutus were rather the victims and the Tutsis the culprits.
01:14:27 - Unfortunately, it is this inversion that was in the minds of the people of the time,
01:14:33 - and that remains and remains, I fear, in the minds of some of our contemporaries.
01:14:38 - And so there are facilities, that's for sure.
01:14:41 - We know that there were French bishops who went to Rwanda in 1994, at least in Goma,
01:14:46 - who were hit by the seminarians they met, Hutus, or priests, Hutus,
01:14:52 - who had spread a vision totally unfounded of genocide, by aggressing things, once again.
01:14:59 - Faced with what they saw, they were upset, and as if by chance, we found priests,
01:15:05 - Rwandan priests, whose past was still very, very, how to say, ambiguous, not to say crazy,
01:15:13 - to find themselves priests in dioceses of these bishops.
01:15:16 - And there, it's a real problem, it's a problem, all the more so, it seems to me,
01:15:20 - that the Catholic Church, the French Church, has never investigated these questions.
01:15:25 - We're going to listen for a moment to your husband, Alain, with a new excerpt from the film.
01:15:29 - For more than 20 years, we have filed more than thirty complaints,
01:15:34 - and until now, unfortunately, only five people have been judged and convicted.
01:15:51 - France is practically the only country today that still refuses to extradite these people to Rwanda,
01:15:58 - where they would have already been judged.
01:16:01 - So, the questions of the slowness, of course, of our justice on these cases,
01:16:06 - I think that to hope, or even to judge, an old genocidal, it takes ten years,
01:16:12 - and then it's a cost, it's about a million euros.
01:16:16 - That's it, so you have to count five years, appeals, two years, and castrations, two or three years, so it's ten.
01:16:22 - And your husband says in this excerpt, "France is practically the only country today that still refuses to extradite these people to Rwanda,
01:16:29 - which would have already allowed them to be judged." Where is the problem there?
01:16:33 - Why does France refuse to extradite its former Rwandan genocidal?
01:16:39 - I think it's a question of law, we should perhaps ask this question to the Court of Cassation,
01:16:45 - which refuses, which has stopped, which refuses to extradite them.
01:16:49 - At the beginning, we were told that there was the death penalty in Rwanda, the death penalty does not exist,
01:16:54 - we were told that the TPR does not extradite in Rwanda, the TPR extradited in Rwanda,
01:17:00 - and now, the last of the last, it's that the post-genocide organic law was elaborated after the genocide.
01:17:12 - So, in fact, it's as if France could not have, for example, judged Papon,
01:17:16 - but we're not going to produce laws before the crime is even committed.
01:17:21 - So it's completely nonsensical, I think it's up to the Court of Cassation, to their magistrates,
01:17:27 - to answer this question that we absolutely do not understand.
01:17:31 - It's true that it's difficult to understand, since genocidal proceedings in Rwanda have taken place in Belgium,
01:17:39 - in Germany, in Canada, in Finland, in Norway, in Sweden, in the Netherlands,
01:17:42 - and they, these countries, in parallel, extradite certain genociders.
01:17:48 - We, in France, we do not do it. Do you have an answer to this question?
01:17:52 - Well, yes, Daphroza gave some elements, there are these legal issues.
01:17:57 - Recently, there was a stoppage of the Court of Cassation which evolved a slightly similar issue with the Syrians.
01:18:06 - The diplomatic relations are also more and more fluid,
01:18:13 - fluid, pacified, with Rwanda, so we can perhaps estimate that in the years to come, things will evolve.
01:18:19 - And would it really speed up the proceedings to judge these Rwandan genocides, as Alain Gauthier says in this excerpt, your husband?
01:18:27 - Inevitably, because in fact, as we said at the beginning, we are working on 150 files that concern the entire planet.
01:18:35 - Between Sri Lanka, well, in short, it means that at the moment, we do not have investigators who are permanently dedicated to Rwanda.
01:18:44 - So inevitably, we are breathing, it also assumes, as the CPCR does, to have 80-90 hearings,
01:18:52 - since we are only working on testimonies, so we can not rely on a testimony, so it's permanent back and forth, etc.
01:19:00 - And then, the Court of Cassation in Paris must also be available to be able to judge correctly.
01:19:06 - And there, of course, it gets a little complicated. So yes, it would still be good to evolve on this field.
01:19:14 - Laurent Larcher, you have an answer?
01:19:16 - I have asked the question several times to my interlocutors in the Cadorce or the Elysée, I do not understand the answer.
01:19:21 - I do not understand the answer.
01:19:23 - So what is the answer they provide you?
01:19:25 - What you said.
01:19:27 - The same thing?
01:19:29 - So, we have the idea of non-retroactivity of the laws, except that for Barbie, for example, we have completely applied the non-retroactivity,
01:19:37 - Barbie, not only was asked for her extradition for a crime that was not defined by law when it was committed, and fortunately we did.
01:19:45 - And that's what's crazy enough, is that we allow ourselves, with Rwanda, things that we would not bear for ourselves.
01:19:53 - Imagine that the country in which Barbie was, was a refugee, and one refused extradition in France, for the reasons that France evokes,
01:20:05 - that is to say, the definition of the crime dates from the commission of the crime, so there is no reason.
01:20:12 - And then, at one point, until 1980, there was the death penalty, imagine that a country says "no, at your place there is the death penalty, so we will not extradite a war criminal"
01:20:20 - or "your justice is not great, we do not seem exactly equitable".
01:20:24 - Yes, in fact, behind the issues of extradition in general, it is not especially linked to Rwanda, there are diplomatic issues, always.
01:20:33 - So, it's up to you, how to say, if you want to open the tap or close it, it was the case between France and Italy, also for years on a certain number of criminals.
01:20:44 - So that's the story.
01:20:47 - So, put yourself in the place of Rwanda, and put yourself in the place of the victims of genocide.
01:20:51 - It is up to Rwanda to judge its criminals.
01:20:54 - Well, France does, and it is for the better, but it is first of all up to Rwandan justice to judge its criminals who have committed a crime in their country.
01:21:02 - Do you agree with that?
01:21:04 - Yes, not only do I agree, but I completely subscribe.
01:21:07 - Criminals must be judged in the same place where they have committed crimes.
01:21:13 - Yes, and also the education, to be judged in front of the victims, in front of the population, because all this is also educational.
01:21:23 There are children, young children, who are also committing genocide today.
01:21:27 It would be nice if they heard about these trials in the villages where we are investigating.
01:21:31 There have been the Gacaca trials, of course, but it's starting to go too far.
01:21:36 The closure was in 2012, if I remember correctly.
01:21:41 So it would be really nice if a man like Bigouma, who has just been tried here in Paris,
01:21:47 it would have been very, very nice if he was tried there, at home, in Nianza,
01:21:53 where he committed all these crimes, he has committed many, in different places,
01:21:57 but at least he should be there, close to the police station where he worked, close to the court, so that he is judged.
01:22:04 - The rest now, you continue, of course, without relaxation, with this question.
01:22:10 - Yes, this question, which we have to ask ourselves, nevertheless.
01:22:13 Should this trial be ended one day? Should we turn the page?
01:22:18 Maybe in the name of a national reconciliation in Rwanda, or are you going to continue this trial relentlessly?
01:22:26 Because it's the commitment of a life.
01:22:29 - Well, genocide is a crime that does not age.
01:22:34 - It's prescriptible, you have to remember, it's a prescriptible crime.
01:22:39 So I don't see how we can know that a criminal, a genocidal, somewhere,
01:22:46 and stay silent or do nothing.
01:22:51 Anyway, it's a citizen's job, it's not just us.
01:22:55 We, moreover, we act within the CPCR, the collective of civil parties.
01:23:02 I thank all the members of the CPCR who allow us to do this work, as well as our lawyers,
01:23:09 because without them it would be really difficult to do it anyway.
01:23:14 But in any case, no, we have to continue. It's not just us, in fact.
01:23:19 Every citizen should grasp this question, to make criminals judged.
01:23:24 In France, it happens like that, I don't see it.
01:23:28 If we know it, we have to do it again, we have to denounce it.
01:23:32 - 30 years later, or almost, an imprescriptible crime,
01:23:36 the hunt will continue too, on the side of the law enforcement?
01:23:39 - So for me, there is absolutely no doubt.
01:23:42 From the moment, and this is the principle of universal competence in France,
01:23:48 that we have applied, it is still good not to have workers
01:23:53 who live quietly on our territory and who can thus also benefit from the vastness of France.
01:23:59 This is still a bit the key to the problem.
01:24:02 And it concerns Rwanda, but also all the countries that possibly,
01:24:07 all the individuals who come to take refuge in France,
01:24:10 who come from Syria, RDC, well, whatever you want.
01:24:14 For me, there is no state of mind, we must pursue them without relent.
01:24:19 - Thank you, really a big thank you.
01:24:22 To all three for participating in this Debadoc,
01:24:24 dedicated to the track of the Rwandan genociders,
01:24:27 with this exclusive documentary that we have proposed today,
01:24:31 made, I remind you, by Thomas Riby and Stéphane Joubert.
01:24:34 You can of course react to this show, and it will be on #Debadoc.
01:24:39 Thank you also to Selma Sally, who, as usual, helped me prepare this show.
01:24:43 I'll see you for a next Debadoc, same place, same time,
01:24:46 and always with her documentary and her debate.
01:24:49 See you soon.
01:24:51 - Bye.
01:24:52 - Bye.
01:24:53 - Bye.
01:24:54 - Bye.
01:24:55 - Bye.
01:24:57 - Bye.
01:24:58 - Bye.
01:24:59 - Bye.
01:25:01 - Bye.
01:25:02 [Musique]