Active vs. Passive Investing: Insights from Industry Experts. Chintan Haria and Arun Kumar offer perspectives on investment strategies, helping investors choose the right approach.
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00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 Hello, viewers and investors.
00:09 Welcome to another episode of our exciting and informative
00:12 webinar designed to make your investing journey a little less
00:15 puzzling.
00:16 This episode is spearheaded by ICICI Potential Mutual Fund.
00:20 I am Kundan Kishore, Deputy Editor, Outlook Money,
00:23 your host for this session.
00:24 And today, we have an exciting topic
00:26 to discuss, active versus passive investing, which
00:29 one suits more.
00:31 In recent past, the active versus passive investment
00:35 debate has taken the center stage among investors,
00:38 possibly due to availability of numerous innovative products
00:41 in passive space.
00:43 Today, we try to decode up with our experts
00:46 which one suits more, active versus passive investing
00:48 approach.
00:49 To guide us for this insightful journey today,
00:52 we are privileged to have Mr. Chintan Haria, Head Product
00:55 Development and Strategy, ICICI Potential Mutual Fund,
00:59 and Mr. Arun Kumar, Head of Research at Funds India,
01:03 one of India's largest digital wealth management platform.
01:06 So without further ado, let us unravel
01:10 the world of active versus passive investing
01:13 with our two great experts.
01:14 So Chintan sir, first of all, I would like to ask you,
01:17 could you please help our viewers
01:18 to understand the key difference between active and passive
01:22 investing approach?
01:24 It is amazing, Kundanji, that the last one week,
01:28 I have done two client events in two different cities,
01:32 and I have done one webinar.
01:33 One webinar which was dedicated to active versus passive,
01:36 so this is my second discussion on it in the last one week.
01:39 And in both the client events, in fact,
01:41 it's general that in all client events these days,
01:43 this active versus passive, should I invest in index fund,
01:46 that discussion is happening and clients are asking that,
01:50 which is essentially also telling us that the awareness
01:52 level of clients, thanks to platforms like you, which
01:55 are teaching clients about every aspect of financial investing,
01:58 is quite good.
02:00 Now coming to your question on active versus passive
02:03 and the debate around it, clearly in India,
02:06 the first debate should be equity versus something else.
02:09 So first debate should be that invest in equity.
02:13 Why should one invest in equity?
02:14 Now I think we've probably passed that hurdle
02:16 with more than 8 crore Demat accounts, 4 crore investors
02:20 in mutual funds.
02:22 That probably is now accepted and it will grow as a field,
02:26 so that's good.
02:27 Now after we've accepted that equity
02:29 is important in our portfolio, the next question
02:31 comes, should it be in actively managed mutual funds
02:34 or passively managed mutual funds?
02:35 And first, what is active and what is passive?
02:38 Active is basically where, based on the scheme's defined
02:42 objective, the fund manager chooses the stocks,
02:45 chooses the weightages, chooses the sectors,
02:48 and creates a portfolio.
02:49 That's active fund management.
02:51 Passive fund management is essentially
02:54 where indices are already known, they
02:56 are publicly available documents,
02:58 the methodology is well available,
03:00 and based on the methodology, whatever is the portfolio,
03:03 the asset management company replicates the portfolio
03:06 to the extent possible, and that is called as passively managed
03:10 funds, where there is no active involvement of any fund
03:13 manager in picking and choosing the sectors, stocks,
03:15 and weights.
03:16 That's passive management.
03:17 Now to your question, what should be the investor doing
03:21 if there is an active option and a passive option?
03:23 I think as we move along and we'll discuss more,
03:27 but an investor should have everything
03:30 possible in their portfolio, depending
03:32 on the size of the portfolio.
03:34 So if an investor is a, let's say, a first time investor,
03:38 they'll probably start with an asset allocation product
03:41 like the Balanced Advantage Fund.
03:42 And as they grow in their journey,
03:43 they'll probably have some element of lexicap, value,
03:47 special situations.
03:49 And then the understanding of equity markets being good,
03:52 they can pick and choose the passive funds.
03:55 So if, for example, an investor in 2020 March
03:58 felt that, OK, I'm very positive on the markets,
04:00 and I want to buy small caps.
04:03 I want to buy all the small caps available in one go.
04:06 Why not just go for the passively available small cap
04:08 250 index?
04:09 Because it's giving me everything in one go,
04:11 rather than going for a specific selection of fund manager,
04:14 and where the fund manager will select 30, 40 stocks
04:17 and create a portfolio.
04:18 I want to buy the entire market.
04:19 So that's where the passive will come in.
04:21 So the discussion is not active or passive.
04:24 The discussion is how we can have the best of both worlds
04:27 by choosing active and passive.
04:29 Because there are certain segments which
04:31 are not available in passive.
04:32 For example, asset allocation schemes and Balanced Advantage
04:35 Fund category is not available in passive right now.
04:37 Arbitrage is not available in passive right now.
04:40 So effectively, you have best of both worlds.
04:42 And just to simplify it, an investor
04:44 need not get worried, because this is also
04:46 one question which comes in.
04:48 There are so many funds, so many mutual funds,
04:50 so I active versus passive is only complicating my life.
04:53 How do I handle it?
04:54 So we'll obviously-- and Arunji is here,
04:57 and he is a master at making things simple.
05:00 But don't be too complicated in life.
05:02 Active and passive both deserve a mention in your portfolio,
05:06 and how and what we'll discuss as we move along.
05:08 Thank you.
05:08 Arun, what is your take on this?
05:11 Yeah, so if you mostly look at this debate of active
05:15 versus passive, I completely agree with Chintan
05:17 that the initial-- the real problem is getting into equity
05:21 and then hold on for the next seven years.
05:24 The real challenge is people invest in equities,
05:26 but still--
05:28 there are three challenges.
05:29 One, there are bad news, and then you panic sell out of it.
05:32 And every time you get new money, there is again bad news,
05:35 and then you say, I will postpone my investments.
05:38 And then you keep rotating out of funds
05:40 based on whichever is doing well at the current time.
05:43 So I think broadly, behaviorally,
05:45 equity as an asset class is a behaviorally challenging asset
05:49 class, and so implementation is the key problem.
05:52 So let's assume that we have to solve that at the first level.
05:56 Then people come on to the second problem
05:58 of active versus passive.
06:00 My sense is broadly, at least, this
06:03 is predominantly coming from the global context,
06:05 and the equation is kind of nullifying
06:11 into one single element, which is cost.
06:14 So that active--
06:15 I mean, passive is very cheap, and active
06:17 is slightly more expensive.
06:18 And hence, anything that is lower the cost, the better,
06:21 is how the whole equation goes.
06:23 But if you really think about it, and for a second--
06:26 I mean, this holds true, assuming that everything else
06:29 is the same.
06:30 But just to ensure that we all understand it better,
06:34 for a second, let's assume that costs were the same.
06:36 Argument is, let's say, active--
06:37 all active funds had the same cost,
06:40 and all passive funds had the same cost.
06:42 There was no difference.
06:43 Then how would you choose?
06:44 Now, this makes it interesting, because then you suddenly
06:46 ask, saying that, OK, costs are the same.
06:49 So I will have to pick which is the portfolio that
06:52 is better for me.
06:54 And now the question is, which portfolio is better?
06:56 Now, when you say passive, you don't talk
06:58 about what is that portfolio.
06:59 Passive, in other words, basically
07:01 says that the larger the stock, the better.
07:04 While you call it passive, essentially,
07:06 let's say if you're buying Nifty 50,
07:08 you're buying the top 50 companies.
07:09 And it's, again, a very concentrated index.
07:12 So the largest 15 stocks will technically
07:15 be around, say, close to 70% of your portfolio.
07:17 So in other words, you are essentially
07:19 saying a stock at, say, a market cap of, say, $2,000 crores
07:23 is more--
07:24 will provide me better returns than a stock at, say,
07:27 $50,000 crores.
07:28 Now, if I tell this to anybody, suddenly the next question
07:31 that you would ask is, why should that be?
07:33 Why can't a $50,000 crore market cap company be better?
07:36 But that's the rule.
07:37 The rule of passive basically says, the larger, the better.
07:41 So if a company is larger, then I
07:43 will put more of your money there.
07:45 So it's a simple rule-based strategy.
07:47 Now, you can't ask--
07:48 so the question that you have to ask is,
07:50 is this the only rule that can work?
07:52 So when will this rule work?
07:54 Obviously, simple, that if the top 15 companies or the larger
07:57 stocks do better, then obviously,
08:00 passive funds will have a very, very good streak.
08:03 So if the larger piece of--
08:05 I mean, the larger stocks do well.
08:07 And if you look at US, the larger stocks
08:09 have done disproportionately well in the last 10 years.
08:11 And no wonder passive has done well.
08:13 Now, let's look at other forms of passive,
08:16 where it's called factor investment, where people said,
08:19 hey, why should this be the only rule?
08:20 The larger, the better.
08:21 There can also be rules like, higher
08:23 the quality of the stocks, I should give higher weightage.
08:26 So this is called quality investing.
08:28 Then some people might say, I want
08:29 to go for lower-valued stocks.
08:31 So then you say, lower the valuation,
08:33 I will give higher weightage.
08:34 So this becomes a form of value as a style.
08:37 Then there will be growth.
08:39 Like if stocks are expected to grow higher or better
08:42 than the others, I will give a higher weightage.
08:44 Then there's the other thing exactly opposite to passive,
08:47 which is mid- and small-cap investing, which basically
08:49 says the opposite, that the smaller the companies,
08:51 it can outperform my passive benchmark.
08:54 So these are the four broad sides.
08:56 And obviously, there is momentum,
08:58 which says stocks which have run up well
09:01 will continue to do well.
09:02 And then there's a dividend format of investment.
09:04 So passive is broadly a rough shortcut
09:08 of explaining the fact that larger the better.
09:10 But there are also other rules, like lower the value
09:12 the better, higher the quality the better,
09:15 higher the momentum the better, lower the size the better,
09:18 higher the growth the better.
09:20 So the first level is, within these five, what will do well
09:23 will predominantly depend on the environment.
09:25 But globally, it's also been seen
09:27 that the other formats of picking stocks
09:31 have also done well over long periods of time.
09:33 Now, then you can ask the question,
09:35 saying, within this format, should I
09:36 go completely rule-based?
09:38 Or can Indian fund managers add some points,
09:40 and there will always be some few lower-quality companies
09:43 which can get into these indices?
09:45 Can they pull that off, and then add their own ones,
09:48 and then add value?
09:49 So this is the whole equation.
09:51 So in our sense, we believe that in the large-cap space,
09:54 it's becoming very, very difficult for active fund
09:56 managers, because two reasons.
09:58 One, the overlap is very high.
10:00 So almost 60% of the portfolios are the same.
10:02 So with 40% to outperform has become very difficult.
10:05 So if this equation changes, then maybe it
10:09 might become a little more easier.
10:11 And then the second aspect of the fact
10:14 is that, again, the cost is also reasonably high
10:17 vis-a-vis passive.
10:18 So if the costs come down and the overlap starts to come
10:22 down, then there is a better chance for large-cap.
10:25 But right now, our sense is large-cap
10:26 is a segment where more or less both are equally placed.
10:29 But however, in the small-cap, you
10:30 are seeing that active funds comfortably
10:34 outperform the passive indexes over long run.
10:36 And mid-caps also, you are seeing the same trend.
10:38 So somebody who is mixing large and mid and small-cap
10:43 can reasonably still attempt a decent outperformance
10:46 over the long run.
10:47 But again, you have to remember that all active funds
10:49 compulsorily will have periods of underperformance for sure.
10:54 And you will have to go through that.
10:55 So this is how I look at the debate right now.
10:58 And passive should probably be, as Chintan told,
11:01 a good starter product.
11:02 And then eventually, once you get a little sense
11:05 of how this works, then I think you
11:07 can step up to mixing different styles
11:11 and using active preferably.
11:12 And worst case, you don't want to do that.
11:14 You can still go for a factor-based investing.
11:17 So this is how I would look at the situation right now.
11:21 OK, fine.
11:22 Very well explained.
11:23 But Arun, I'll come to this outperformance,
11:26 underperformance a little later.
11:28 But I just wanted to understand from you,
11:30 as you rightly mentioned, the cost factor.
11:32 Cost is one of the major factors.
11:33 And that is the advantage with the passive funds.
11:36 So here I would like to ask you, how
11:38 do these differences impact long-term investments
11:41 result in case of passive investments?
11:45 Again, as I told, in large-cap segment,
11:48 the cost is a very, very big factor.
11:51 Because primarily, the universe available is only 100 stocks.
11:56 So if you look at most active large-cap funds,
11:59 because the universe available is only 100,
12:01 they have to compulsorily invest 80% of their portfolios
12:05 into these 100 stocks.
12:06 And hence, the overlap is very, very high.
12:09 So on an average, if you look at it,
12:11 most funds have an overlap of almost close to 60%.
12:15 So which means you have only 40% of your portfolio, which
12:18 is differentiated from the passive, say, Nifty 50 or Nifty
12:22 100.
12:23 So with 40%, I have to deliver 2.5% outperformance
12:28 on that 40% basket just to compensate
12:31 for 1% expense difference.
12:32 So let's assume your passive fund is cheaper by 1%.
12:36 Then on my 40% basket, I have to outperform 2.5% every year
12:40 just to stay at the same level.
12:43 And let's say if it's a higher expense differential,
12:45 then it becomes even tougher.
12:47 Which is why on the active large-cap side,
12:51 the cost is becoming a very big problem.
12:54 And the fact that the funds are also overlapping
12:57 is becoming a problem.
12:58 So if the overlap comes down and the cost differential
13:01 comes down, I think then it might again
13:05 tilt towards the active passive.
13:07 But that's the problem that we're seeing there.
13:09 But at least in other categories,
13:11 though there is a cost differential,
13:12 there is enough opportunity for fund managers
13:15 to identify and provide outperformance.
13:17 So this is why you are seeing small caps,
13:19 most funds are able to comfortably outperform.
13:21 Again, you are seeing similar trends in mid-caps.
13:23 Again, flexi-caps are nothing but a mix
13:25 of large, mid, and small caps.
13:27 So based on the fund manager's skill set,
13:31 they're able to blend it and they are also
13:33 able to outperform.
13:34 So I think except for large caps,
13:36 the cost part is not becoming a big deterrent as of now.
13:40 Probably five years down the line,
13:42 we may have to monitor how it affects the mid-cap space.
13:46 But right now, cost is becoming an issue
13:49 only on the large-cap space.
13:50 The other spaces, they're comfortably
13:52 able to outperform despite the cost differential.
13:56 Chinta sir, I would like to understand from you,
13:59 typically investments are for long-term.
14:02 And if you look at the performance of schemes
14:04 across the categories--
14:05 I'm not talking about large-cap, mid-cap, or small-cap.
14:08 If you look at the performance of schemes across categories,
14:12 so over the period of time, say 10 years or 15 years,
14:16 most of the actively managed funds have done quite well.
14:21 So in that case, what would be your suggestion for investors?
14:27 How they should choose between active and passive?
14:31 The first thing is if investors actually
14:33 stay invested for 15 years, whether it is active or passive,
14:36 they'll be happy is what we probably
14:38 can gauge based on what has happened in the past.
14:41 Because over a 15-year period, the ups and downs
14:44 and the risks and negative news, market cycle all plays out.
14:49 So if investors indeed-- and that's
14:51 how equity should be looked at, that the longer you invest,
14:54 the better it is.
14:55 Whether it is through active, whether it is through passive,
14:57 it probably matters less.
14:59 In the case of India, you mentioned about a 15-year
15:02 journey.
15:04 That's probably from, say, 2003, 2004, 2005 to today,
15:08 which essentially is a 17, 18-year journey.
15:10 India started to-- basically, the emerging market
15:14 started to climb after 2002, 2003.
15:16 And there were lots of opportunities
15:18 which fund managers could probably explore.
15:21 And that was the phase between 2003 and 2008
15:25 where active fund managers did very well.
15:27 Then because of the housing financial crisis that
15:30 happened in-- or the global financial crisis which
15:32 happened in the US, there was a sharp correction in India.
15:35 And in that phase between 2008 and 2011,
15:39 passive funds did better than active
15:40 because active fund managers took
15:42 the hit of many of the sectors which were probably
15:45 doing well in 2008.
15:46 Let's say real estate, metals, et cetera.
15:49 However, there were certain fund managers
15:50 who stayed away from these sectors
15:52 and were in probably the defensive sectors of pharma,
15:56 technology, and FMCG.
15:57 And they did very well in 2009, '10, and '11 also.
16:01 So while generally fund managers struggled,
16:04 there were some who actually ended up doing well,
16:06 especially those who follow the value theme.
16:09 2011, '12, India was going through a bad time.
16:12 And 2013 onwards, if you look at it,
16:14 markets started to bounce back.
16:16 The period between August 2013 and 2018, January,
16:20 then active fund managers did very well.
16:23 So it's a toggle between active fund managers doing well
16:26 in 2003 to 2008, 2008 to 2013 being a very difficult period
16:32 for India in an economic sense, and markets not doing well,
16:36 and that the larger caps did well.
16:38 And so the passive funds, which generally
16:41 are investors tend to invest in, let's say the larger cap
16:45 funds in passive, that did well.
16:47 2013 to '18, again, we saw where active did phenomenally well
16:51 across the board.
16:52 I think generally-- and Arun would
16:54 have the numbers at the back of his hand knowing him--
16:56 in 2013 to 2018, active funds did well.
17:00 Again, 2018, after the implementation
17:02 of long-term capital gains tax, there
17:04 was a very sharp fall in the side markets, mid-caps,
17:07 small-caps.
17:08 In 2018 to 2020, till COVID struck,
17:11 passive did very well because the entire contribution
17:15 of positivity to the markets was in the top 10 names in Nifty.
17:19 Apart from top 10 names in Nifty,
17:21 every other category and segment below the top 10
17:24 was almost negative and sharply negative
17:26 in the case of mid and small caps.
17:28 So in that scenario, where the fund manager is diversifying,
17:31 they basically took it between 2018 and 2020,
17:34 and passive did better than active.
17:36 And the story for the last two years, between 2021 and 2023,
17:41 is pretty much in favor of active funds,
17:43 where active funds have been able to beat benchmark,
17:45 even in the large-cap category, because
17:47 of the turn in the markets towards a more broad-based
17:51 rally.
17:51 So the answer is very simple.
17:54 I do not know what will happen tomorrow.
17:55 But what I know is that it is a--
17:58 let's say it depends on the market cycle,
18:01 whether active does better than passive.
18:03 What investors should ideally do is have an asset allocation,
18:06 have an advisor in place.
18:08 The advisor can basically advise the investor
18:10 between active and passive.
18:12 And within passive, just to highlight,
18:14 there is a concept of gold fund of fund, silver fund of fund,
18:18 which is unique, right?
18:19 And that can be added to your portfolio
18:21 to give you that necessary diversification.
18:23 So passive, of course, has a lot of options.
18:26 And as Arun mentioned, in passive, you can choose.
18:29 If you are a momentum investor, you
18:31 will get that factor-based fund as well.
18:35 If you want low volatility and more stable stocks,
18:38 you'll have that factor.
18:39 So the options are there.
18:41 But I don't expect every investor
18:42 to know every possible fund that is there.
18:45 I do this for a living, day in and day out.
18:47 And I cannot keep a track of all the funds that are
18:49 available in the market, honestly.
18:51 So it requires probably some amount of focused advice.
18:55 And that can be provided by a good intermediary
18:58 to each investor.
19:00 So self-select is good.
19:01 But if you have an advisor, you'll
19:03 get a holistic approach, which is very important to get
19:05 both active and passive, or the best
19:07 of both active and passive.
19:09 Thank you.
19:10 Arun, I would like to understand from you,
19:12 as Chintan rightly mentioned, that certain active funds have
19:16 given better returns, or they have performed well
19:18 in certain market times.
19:20 So I would like to understand from you,
19:22 because you are hardcore into the research.
19:25 So basically, as far as active funds are concerned,
19:30 in addition to generating alpha, containing the downside
19:33 is equally important for actively managed funds.
19:38 So what is your experience so far?
19:40 How the fund managers have managed their--
19:42 I mean, contained their downside when there was not a--
19:45 when there was an unfavorable market scenario?
19:48 At least the Indian evidence is overwhelmingly
19:51 in favor of active fund managers when it
19:54 comes to reducing the downside.
19:56 So if you take the recent COVID fall, especially for--
20:02 a small cap is probably a good category, which is probably
20:05 the most volatile.
20:06 And that is a good category where
20:07 you can see if active fund managers are
20:09 adding a lot of value.
20:11 The index was almost--
20:12 let's say this fall started from 2018,
20:15 and it went on till '19, and then it started to recover.
20:17 But then again, 2020 COVID hit.
20:20 So let's say you measured from 2018 start
20:23 to the bottom most point at 2020,
20:26 say, around that March 23 level.
20:29 The index was almost down close to 60%,
20:32 almost 58% to be precise.
20:34 Let's assume it's 60%.
20:35 But most of the funds were anywhere between 40%, 45%.
20:39 While it looks only like a 10%, 15%,
20:41 but if you look at the amount of returns required
20:44 to get back to 100, it becomes a massive,
20:47 almost like a 50% differential.
20:50 So it's a huge outperformance that small and--
20:55 I mean, small cap funds have done.
20:57 The same phenomena has happened in mid-caps.
20:59 So broadly, if you look at how small and mid-caps work,
21:03 they do extremely well vis-a-vis the mid- and small-cap
21:07 index, especially during falls, which is
21:09 why over a long period of time, every time there's
21:12 a sharp fall, the active fund managers
21:15 tend to do extremely well.
21:16 And then obviously, in the next one-year period,
21:18 it looked like active fund managers are underperforming
21:21 because you have fallen lesser, and you require much lower
21:24 amount to get back.
21:25 While because your index has fallen a far higher amount,
21:31 it looks optically that this is doing very well,
21:33 which is why once you measure over long cycles, which
21:37 contains a large up cycle and a down cycle,
21:40 and then you again wait for the next up cycle,
21:43 you will find that active small caps and active mid-caps
21:46 and also active flexi-caps, because again, they're just
21:49 a combo of large, mid, and flexi.
21:52 All three have been comfortably-- and in fact,
21:54 large caps also, if you look at extended time frames
21:57 of over 15 years, because they have-- the edges are
21:59 a little small, so they will have to--
22:02 you will have to give them a long enough rope.
22:04 You can't keep checking for every three or five years.
22:07 But at least on the small caps and mid-caps and flexi-caps,
22:10 a seven-year time frame is good enough for you
22:12 to meaningfully see a decent-- provided that you pick
22:15 the right fund managers.
22:17 And again, for large caps, my sense
22:19 is you might have to give them an extended time frame,
22:22 because it is getting a little more difficult
22:25 vis-a-vis the other segment.
22:27 But it's clearly in favor of active funds.
22:30 The data is clearly in favor of active funds
22:32 when it comes to reducing the downside compared
22:35 to the benchmark, at least from an Indian context.
22:39 But here, Arun, it's very difficult for common investors
22:44 to pick the winning horse.
22:46 I mean, a fund that will do better in the future.
22:49 So in that sense, I mean, passive works well.
22:52 Right.
22:53 Right.
22:53 So if you are somebody who doesn't
22:57 have any intermediary or an advisor to guide you,
23:02 then I think it is--
23:03 let me be honest, it is a little difficult,
23:05 because one, the first challenge is how do you figure out
23:09 who is the right active fund manager for you?
23:12 And then again, as Chintan told, there are different styles.
23:15 There are styles like low volatility, momentum, value,
23:19 quality.
23:20 And all these styles end up doing well in certain phases.
23:23 And they also underperform in certain.
23:25 But overall, the way it works is when they outperform,
23:28 they more than compensate for the under--
23:30 so an ideal good advisor would kind of blend different
23:33 approaches together and figure out some good fund managers who
23:38 have been there, done that over long periods of time,
23:41 and who can go through those tough times
23:43 without giving up.
23:43 If you look at a classic case like iPru's discovery,
23:47 iPru value discovery, till 2020, if you
23:50 look at their five-year, three-year, seven-year
23:52 performance, nobody would have touched it.
23:54 But now suddenly, in the last three years,
23:56 the fund has done extremely well,
23:57 because value was out of favor.
23:59 So not just iPru value, any other fund manager
24:02 who had chosen that value-oriented style
24:05 was going through a bad time.
24:06 So it's not the fund manager's fault.
24:08 It's just that the style wasn't in favor.
24:10 Now quality is going through bad times.
24:12 But again, after five years, you will again
24:14 see that quality also comes back.
24:16 So the idea is different styles do well
24:19 at different points in time.
24:20 So if you want to do a good job in active fund investing,
24:25 you shouldn't only go by past performance.
24:27 Then you'll end up only overloading
24:28 on a particular style, only to see
24:30 that the style is underperformed after you enter.
24:32 So you need to consciously blend four or five styles together
24:36 and possibly some global exposure,
24:38 and figure out the best fund manager.
24:40 It is a little complicated.
24:43 So you may need some help on that.
24:44 But let's say if you don't want to do that,
24:46 and if you're a DIY, I think you should
24:48 start with a simple broad-based passive index.
24:50 Then as you gain expertise, you then
24:53 figure out whether you want to do factors
24:55 or whether you want to do fund.
24:57 But if you are finding it difficult,
24:59 stick to a simple asset allocation plan,
25:01 or products which are ready-made,
25:03 which can do the asset allocation also,
25:05 and then start your journey.
25:07 But this, I think, definitely you
25:09 will need some help on figuring out which fund manager
25:12 and how to blend these different styles together.
25:15 Arun, I will come to you for the portfolio part.
25:17 But let me understand from Chintan sir
25:20 what all options are there in passive space.
25:22 Then we'll make the portfolio together.
25:25 So Chintan sir, could you please help us understand
25:29 what kind of products are there in passive space?
25:32 Passive funds include index funds and ETFs both.
25:35 Just to highlight again, because many people
25:38 would get confused, there is not much difference
25:41 between an index fund and an ETF.
25:43 Index fund and ETF, both are mutual funds.
25:46 The difference is index funds is mimicking the benchmark,
25:49 but it is like a typical mutual fund
25:51 wherein you put a subscription and a deduction,
25:53 and that happens based on the NAV.
25:57 In the case of ETF, ETFs are also mimicking a benchmark,
26:00 replicating a benchmark, just that that particular portfolio
26:04 is listed on the exchange, and you can buy it and sell it
26:06 in units as low as one unit.
26:08 So ETF is nothing but basically a replication of portfolio
26:12 which is listed, and index funds are not listed.
26:15 They are basically available for purchase and sale
26:17 based on the day and NAV.
26:18 Both are passive.
26:19 Both have indexes or underlying indices
26:22 which are well-defined, and the methodology
26:25 is also well-defined.
26:26 Now coming back to the options that you have.
26:29 Now, if you look at the options in passive which you have,
26:32 the first option is market cap-based indices,
26:35 which is what Arunbhai was mentioning.
26:37 The most popular, the largest AUM typically
26:42 is in market cap-weighted indices,
26:44 typically the Nifty 50s and Sex 30
26:47 are two broad benchmarks which have probably
26:50 in the industry the largest AUM today,
26:52 and they have the top 50 names and top 30 names in India
26:57 based on the methodology of the respective index provider.
26:59 So those are large cap indices.
27:01 Then there are mid-cap indices which follow from 101 to 250
27:05 by market cap, and there are small cap indices which
27:07 are beyond 251 or 250 stocks.
27:10 So these are market capitalization-based indices
27:13 whose weights are also decided by the market cap
27:15 or the free-for-market cap.
27:17 Apart from market capitalization-based indices
27:19 in India, as the demand for products
27:22 and as the interest of AMCs have also
27:25 increased along with the interest of distribution
27:27 investors, you have a lot of sectors and themes
27:29 which are available in passive.
27:31 So much like how in active funds you
27:32 have an infrastructure fund, an FMCG fund, a pharma fund,
27:37 similarly on the passive side also
27:38 you have a lot of options of themes.
27:41 If I have to speak about IPRO and the various themes which
27:44 are available, you have banking, private bank,
27:48 you have financial services, ex-bank, you have health care,
27:51 you have IT, you have auto, the list is quite wide.
27:56 So we are trying to basically give an option to the investor
27:59 that if you are positive on any particular sector or theme,
28:03 you should have an alternative on the passive side
28:05 to invest in that team, be it for a trade,
28:07 be it for a long-term allocation.
28:09 That is dependent on the asset allocation of the investor.
28:11 So market cap-based indices, sector or thematic-based
28:14 indices, including infrastructure as a passive fund
28:17 is also available.
28:19 Consumption as a passive fund is available.
28:21 If I move to smart beta ETFs, which is essentially
28:26 what Arunabh was mentioning, momentum, low-volume sector.
28:29 Smart beta, while it sounds technical in very simple terms,
28:33 smart beta ETFs are ETFs which have underlying indices,
28:38 which pick and choose stocks on the basis of certain factor
28:44 or factors.
28:45 For example, low volatility as a factor.
28:48 So you define the universe.
28:50 Out of top 100 companies, I will pick the stocks
28:54 which on the last one year basis has shown the lowest volatility.
28:58 So you basically rank the stocks on volatility
29:01 in the lowest 30 stocks on the basis of one year.
29:04 You pick those stocks.
29:05 And in the case of low-vol, even the weightages
29:08 are then basically based on the lowest volatile stock getting
29:12 the highest weight.
29:13 So it is relatively lowest volatile stock
29:15 getting the highest weight.
29:16 And that's how the weights are taken care of.
29:17 So that's on low-vol.
29:18 Momentum is slightly different from low-vol.
29:22 Best performing stocks on the price basis on six months
29:25 and one year are taken into account,
29:27 maybe from a universe of, say, 200 stocks.
29:30 And that 30 stocks which have shown price momentum,
29:33 which are the best performing on six month and 12 month adjusted
29:36 for some standard deviation, those
29:38 are picked up and then rebalanced every six months
29:41 or based on the methodology.
29:42 So you have smart beta ETFs.
29:43 This is very similar to what active fund managers actually
29:46 do, just that active fund managers would probably
29:50 have the flexibility of being valued today,
29:52 grow tomorrow, quality later, depending on the market cycle.
29:55 Very difficult to do, because as an individual,
29:58 if I'm a value fund manager, for me to become growth fund
30:00 manager is very difficult, or a very high quality at high price
30:04 is very difficult.
30:05 But theoretically, you can do that in an active fund.
30:08 You can maneuver yourself.
30:09 But in a passive fund, which are smart beta oriented,
30:12 the fund is defined.
30:14 So it's low-vol.
30:15 Momentum, quality, value, which is NV20, popularly known as.
30:19 So those are anyways defined.
30:21 So you have market cap.
30:22 You have sector thematic.
30:23 You have smart beta.
30:25 And then, of course, you have commodities.
30:27 So in India right now, gold and silver
30:29 are the two commodities which are available.
30:31 There are some which may be having passively managed
30:34 international funds also, like NASDAQ, for example,
30:37 is one of the passively managed international funds, which
30:40 is a NASDAQ index fund.
30:42 And the last piece is on the debt side.
30:44 So I think the PSUSDL as a category
30:48 had grown significantly and still
30:50 is relevant for investors.
30:51 So you have that category also available on the passive side.
30:54 So these are the broad categories which are available.
30:57 And over the last five, six years at ICICI,
30:59 we've basically had this clear determination
31:04 that we should provide everything
31:06 which is possible from an investor-centricity
31:08 perspective, which will allow them to create the portfolio.
31:11 And now I'll hand it over to you and Arun
31:13 to basically create that portfolio with the products
31:16 that we've basically launched over the last five, six years.
31:19 Thank you.
31:19 Thank you, sir.
31:21 So Arun, as Chintan bhai has rightly mentioned,
31:24 that there are a plethora of products in passive space also.
31:26 And you were talking about this growth-style funds,
31:30 taxier-style funds, value-style funds.
31:33 So in that scenario, a common investor, how an investor
31:37 can build their portfolio?
31:38 So you can look at it in two ways.
31:40 One is somebody who is completely new
31:44 and does not have any guidance.
31:47 So let's make a distinction between new investor
31:50 and existing investor.
31:51 Sure.
31:52 Discuss first the new investors.
31:54 Right.
31:54 So somebody coming first time to the equity markets,
31:59 complete new investor.
32:00 Obviously, the first step would be
32:01 to decide how much goes into equity,
32:04 how much goes into debt.
32:05 So let's say they've decided on that.
32:07 Now the question is, let's say I'm, say, 70% equity.
32:10 Now the question is, how do I build my 70% equity?
32:13 Now I might have an SIP, which mostly it
32:16 will be an SIP because I will keep getting my salary.
32:19 And there might be occasional ups and downs.
32:21 So for a starter portfolio, the simplest index,
32:26 which is the market cap weighted index,
32:27 can be a very broad-based index, like, say, the NIFTY 500
32:31 or the BSE 500.
32:33 Or let's say if you want to even more simplify it,
32:36 just stick to a NIFTY 50 fund just for starting.
32:38 And maybe do it for two, three years
32:40 because the real challenge is to adapt for the equity market
32:46 volume.
32:46 With every year, you'll have a 10%, 20% fall.
32:48 And whenever you have the incremental money
32:51 to invest, you will find it very difficult to invest.
32:54 And then you will always see something else doing well,
32:57 and you'll be tempted.
32:58 So first two, three years is a good time for you to--
33:00 because anyway, it will be a small amount,
33:02 and you're also building it.
33:03 So the first level is to just get comfortable
33:06 with how this asset class works.
33:08 Now once you're done, say, two, three years,
33:11 then probably you can add the second level of slightly
33:15 a higher volatile but better return kind of a product,
33:20 which is a simple NIFTY mid-cap 150 index.
33:23 So first level, you start with, say, the NIFTY 50 or NIFTY 100.
33:27 And then you add the next 150 companies
33:30 that are classified as mid-cap, probably 30% of your portfolio.
33:33 So roughly, it becomes 70% into large cap.
33:37 And then the 30% goes into mid-cap.
33:39 Then maybe again, you let it run for two years.
33:42 So by five years, you have probably
33:44 seen different parts of how the market behaves.
33:47 And you also have got a good sense of how mid-caps behave
33:50 and how large caps behave.
33:52 And post this, now you can take a call
33:54 now whether you want to move into these active-based
33:57 products or factor-based products.
33:59 But broadly, the way we approach the active side
34:02 is that we call it the five-finger strategy, where
34:04 the simple idea is there are different approaches which
34:07 work over long periods of time, apart from the simple market
34:10 cap rating, which is, as Chintan told,
34:13 there is a quality is one particular approach.
34:16 There is value, which is another approach.
34:19 And then there is growth at reasonable price,
34:21 which is another approach.
34:22 Then there is mid-cap or small-cap investing,
34:24 which is another approach.
34:25 And then there is global investing.
34:27 So we pick one or two good fund managers to play all of these
34:31 and put together as 20% each into--
34:34 so five funds, 20% each.
34:36 We club them together.
34:37 And we've been running it for the last four years.
34:40 We've not changed any funds.
34:41 And it's delivered an outperformance of almost close
34:44 to 4% with much lower volatility.
34:47 So the point is--
34:48 but the key point to note is that every one year,
34:51 you will find that a completely new set of two funds
34:54 underperform.
34:54 And when it underperforms, it's drastically underperforming.
34:57 And there are two funds which are doing dramatically well.
34:59 But that's how the solution is supposed to work.
35:01 If all five work really well at one single point in time,
35:05 then you have to be worried because that's not the design.
35:08 The design is three has to do well
35:10 and two has to do bad every year.
35:12 And which is the three, which is the two,
35:14 will have to keep rotating once every two, three years.
35:18 So this is one approach that you can use.
35:19 So broadly, this is how I would look at it.
35:22 And for somebody confused, you should probably
35:24 start with both.
35:25 And then once you get conviction that whichever
35:28 works well for you, then you start moving either
35:32 to active or passive.
35:33 So we have seen a lot of our large clients
35:35 use this blended approach.
35:37 And then based on the comfort, keep moving towards--
35:42 I mean, for our case, it's active.
35:43 Since active has worked for them,
35:45 they have slightly moved towards active.
35:46 But this is also one more approach,
35:49 which very large investors can do.
35:52 Because at large sums of money, you are also in a dilemma.
35:55 And you don't start and you keep debating this.
35:57 So I think 50-50 is probably a good starting point
36:02 for somebody who's very confused on how to start.
36:04 So basically, you mean to say that a new investor should
36:08 begin with passive funds?
36:12 Yeah, if you're a new investor and if you
36:13 don't have any guidance, then passive
36:16 is a good way to start.
36:17 And over a period of time, move to active.
36:19 But if you have the required guidance,
36:22 you can start with active.
36:23 But make sure you are blending different styles.
36:25 Don't go only by past performance.
36:27 Because mostly, let's say if you're investing today,
36:30 mostly you'll end up with only value funds.
36:32 You won't have any other--
36:34 you won't be touching anything on quality.
36:36 Today, maybe it won't be even valued.
36:38 Probably only small cap funds, because all caps
36:40 have done extremely well.
36:42 So if you only go by returns, then you
36:44 will end up overexposing yourself only
36:46 to one particular approach.
36:48 And when that cycle turns and that approach doesn't do well,
36:51 then you again shift to the other approach, which did well.
36:54 So every time you will miss out on the past three years.
36:57 Because you have to remember that if you're entering value
37:00 discovery today, you have to ask, why didn't I
37:02 enter three years back?
37:03 Because if you go back three years,
37:04 then the fund was underperformed.
37:06 So similarly, if you have quality in your portfolio,
37:09 you should ask, why did I enter quality three years back?
37:11 Because quality was doing extremely well as a state.
37:14 But if you had both of these together,
37:16 though quality is not doing well,
37:17 you will have the behavioral edge
37:20 to sustain because value is more or less compensating
37:22 for quality's underperformed.
37:25 Because the whole point is how the market environment changes
37:28 is very, very difficult to predict.
37:30 Because there are hundreds of events which happen.
37:32 So nobody knows, including the fund manager,
37:35 as to when the environment will come in favor.
37:37 Because if somebody would figure that out,
37:39 then you will have a product which
37:41 will only get the best style.
37:42 And you'll have one AMC which takes everything out.
37:45 So the fact that nobody has been able to do it
37:47 across the world means that you can't
37:50 time when a style comes in favor and out of favor.
37:53 So the best thing is to blend.
37:55 For experienced investors, you look at active,
37:58 blend different approaches.
38:00 For new investors, start with passive.
38:02 And over time, move to active based on your knowledge level.
38:06 If you're new and you know how this works,
38:10 then you can start with active.
38:11 So this is how broadly I would look at the whole--
38:15 in terms of how to build portfolio.
38:17 Chetan sir, would you like to add something here?
38:19 Arun has covered it well.
38:21 But generally, when I do client events,
38:24 this question comes, where should I put my money?
38:28 I said that where should I put my money
38:30 has only 10 different questions which will come to mind.
38:34 What is your current income?
38:35 What is your current allocation?
38:37 What is your responsibility?
38:39 Do you have a marriage and family, child going abroad?
38:43 You want to buy a car?
38:44 You have an EMI going for your home loan.
38:46 So all these questions will come in.
38:48 So instead of asking 10 questions to clients
38:50 when they ask me where to invest,
38:51 I essentially tell them that it's very easy for you
38:54 to create a portfolio of funds which
38:57 will suit you over a long period of time for wealth creation.
39:01 We've been proponents of hybrids in a very big way.
39:03 So much like I said, you need to have active and passive both.
39:07 I'll probably create something which I believe
39:09 will work for most investors.
39:10 And then if Arun wants to add something, Arunbhai can add.
39:14 One is you need to anchor your portfolio.
39:17 You need to build a strong foundation for your portfolio.
39:20 That is generally built with funds
39:22 like balanced advantage fund category or multi-asset
39:24 category.
39:25 Clearly there, you get fund management
39:29 taking care of your equity and debt
39:31 evaluation-based investments.
39:33 And I think from an active fund management piece,
39:36 we do believe you should have about 40% to 50%
39:38 of your portfolio in balanced advantage fund and multi-asset
39:41 fund as a combination.
39:45 Then there are many options that you have-- special situations,
39:49 value discovery, flexi-cap funds, multi-cap funds,
39:52 all-cap, mid-cap.
39:53 Depending on your risk appetite, you can have all three of these
39:56 and have 30% of your portfolio in that.
39:59 Balance 20% of your portfolio.
40:01 I'd say you can have simply 10% of that in gold ETF fund
40:07 or silver ETF fund as the case may be.
40:12 Because I believe with 13 years of underperformance
40:15 for both gold and silver, specifically
40:18 gold, in an uncertain economic environment, that
40:21 will help you hedge your portfolio well.
40:23 And also you can look at any of these smart beta products
40:29 in your portfolio.
40:30 So low vol, or quality, momentum.
40:33 Depending on what you've chosen in your active fund,
40:35 if you want to complement it, you
40:37 have the options in the passive fund.
40:38 And if you really don't know what to do,
40:40 then you have the option of buying a single instrument,
40:43 which will give you exposure to 500 stocks in the market.
40:46 So you have large, mid, and small.
40:48 You have the top 500 names, which is essentially
40:51 either the NSE 500 or the BSE 500 as the case may be.
40:54 We have the BSE 500 ETF fund, which is basically
40:58 on the BSE 500 index.
41:00 So you don't have to worry.
41:01 You basically get the 500 stocks,
41:02 and then you keep it for the longest term.
41:05 And that should help you participate
41:06 in a meaningful manner in those stocks and grow your wealth.
41:10 So you create a portfolio or a bouquet.
41:13 I have not spoken about international investing
41:15 right now in general, because international markets look
41:17 more vulnerable.
41:18 But that could also be a piece at some point of time
41:20 later, because you have some funds which give you
41:23 international exposure.
41:24 But currently, it's probably India,
41:25 which is looking better along with commodities.
41:28 Thank you.
41:29 In fact, Arun, I would like to ask you, in fact,
41:33 your opinion for our young investors,
41:37 those who are quite new, and they simply
41:39 look for which fund has given five years or three years,
41:42 not five years.
41:43 They typically look at two years, three years.
41:45 Some of them might look at one year return,
41:47 and they blindly invest in those funds.
41:50 So what would be your advice for such kind of investors?
41:54 See, the first thing is to realize that any fund,
41:58 be it passive or factor fund or sector or whichever fund
42:03 or active fund, all funds will compulsorily
42:07 go through a bad phase.
42:08 Like let's say if you are passively invested in Nifty,
42:11 Nifty next 50, let's say, three years back,
42:13 everybody used to say, hey, this is one index which always
42:16 does well.
42:17 It's been able to beat Nifty 50.
42:19 It's been able to beat most of the active funds.
42:23 Now suddenly, you see that that has done extremely bad
42:28 compared to Nifty 50.
42:29 So suddenly, now everybody is like, probably Nifty 50,
42:32 you should have.
42:32 So the whole point is that at all points in time,
42:35 irrespective of whichever fund you buy,
42:37 you will always have something better than your fund,
42:41 especially after you buy in the next three years.
42:44 That is the nature of it.
42:46 So the first thing, you have to be really clear in terms of,
42:49 why are you buying the fund?
42:50 And the next question that you have to answer
42:52 is, if let's say I'm buying an active fund, for sure,
42:55 it will have a three-year or a five-year stretch
42:58 of underperformance at some point for the next time.
43:00 Now, if you are not able to stick to it
43:03 at that point in time, most likely you will give it.
43:05 So which means that you need to know one, which is the fund--
43:08 so the toughest part is, behaviorally,
43:10 how do you stick to something which is not doing well?
43:13 But that's how it works.
43:14 So which is why I think you need to know,
43:16 what is the approach that the fund manager is following?
43:19 And try to blend it with something
43:21 which is probably the opposite or something which
43:24 is very complementary, so that not all the four or five funds
43:28 are going through the entire downturn together.
43:33 So which is why my sense is, behaviorally, active funds'
43:36 biggest challenge is that these underperformance phases,
43:40 people give up.
43:41 And then they move to some other style,
43:42 which is currently already done well,
43:45 only to see the fund performance again go down.
43:48 Then again, they move on to the other fund
43:50 from which they exited.
43:52 Then by the time they do it over a 10-year cycle,
43:54 they end up drastically underperforming past.
43:57 Now, the way passive investors have mentally
43:59 solved for this is that every time they
44:01 see any other active fund outperforming,
44:04 they tell themselves that, either way,
44:07 I couldn't have identified it earlier.
44:09 And hence, this is the right strategy.
44:11 So you have a mental language that you
44:13 have given to you, which helps you to be convinced
44:16 that, though something else is doing well, either way,
44:19 I couldn't have picked it up.
44:21 So because that language is there,
44:23 it becomes a little more easier for passive investors.
44:25 But for active investors, which is
44:27 why the approach of blending it together
44:30 will give you the feeling that, hey,
44:31 there are other two or three funds which are doing well.
44:34 These two were not--
44:36 I mean, they're doing great two years back.
44:38 Now it's OK, because eventually, in the next two, three years,
44:41 this will again come back.
44:42 So my sense is, try to blend it together.
44:45 Because if you only go by past performance,
44:47 you'll have a very, very bad X day.
44:48 Go by styles.
44:49 Go by good fund managers.
44:51 If it's on the passive, make sure, as Chintan told,
44:54 get the entire 500 as a starting point.
44:57 Then eventually, add more complexities to it.
45:00 But passive also requires a lot of active decisions.
45:03 Again, as Chintan told, there's a gamut
45:05 of ways in which you can play the passive as well.
45:08 So first level, keep it really simple.
45:10 And as much as possible, once you
45:13 get to a larger size, do get some proper guidance.
45:16 Whatever the extra amount that you pay,
45:18 more or less gets compensated in the long run.
45:20 Because any small mistake kind of compounds over the long run.
45:25 So at a larger sum of money, it's far, far better
45:29 that you get a decent and a proper guidance.
45:32 So I would like to conclude here that if you
45:35 are new to investments, begin your investments
45:38 with passive funds.
45:40 And later on, you can add active and other style of funds
45:44 in your portfolio.
45:45 Right?
45:46 Sure.
45:46 That would be precisely my point.
45:51 OK.
45:52 So with this note, we have come to the end of today's episode.
45:56 Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us today.
45:58 Thank you, Kundan.
45:58 It was a pleasure.
46:00 Thanks a lot.
46:00 Thank you.
46:01 Viewers, we hope you enjoyed our conversation today.
46:04 Please don't forget to share your comments and feedback
46:07 on this episode.
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46:11 at editor@outlookmoney.com.
46:13 We will be back with our next edition soon.
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