Episode 71: Mark And His Dad Reflect On The Life Of Bob Knight
Mark Titus | The Mark Titus Show
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00:00 All right, Bob Knight, uh, emergency podcast, I guess, Bob Knight, uh, passing away on Wednesday,
00:05 um, on, on your birthday, dad, nonetheless, that's, uh, that was pretty weird for me.
00:10 Uh, so for those who might be new to my universe or new to the show or whatever else, uh, first
00:15 of all, this is coach Titus, uh, my father, um, Indiana basketball alum.
00:20 Uh, and I, yeah, I grew up in the state of Indiana being a, an Indiana basketball fan
00:25 because of, uh, because of my father and if I think this would be overstating it, dad,
00:30 that, that, uh, like Bob Knight was not the link in our relationship, but if there was
00:35 in fact one person who you and I like bonded through, I wouldn't say over, and we can talk
00:43 about, we're obviously going to talk about who the man was and what he meant to us and
00:46 all that sort of thing.
00:47 But if there was like one man that we bonded through, if it's not Larry Bird, which it
00:53 might be, it was Bob Knight.
00:57 Um, and so, yeah, I just wanted to bring you on the show and, and talk through both of
01:01 our feelings.
01:02 Uh, I guess my first question would be like, what, what was going through your head immediately
01:07 when I did, did I, did I break the news to you when I called you?
01:12 So what, what, what's like the first thing that you think of when you're told that Bob
01:15 Knight has passed?
01:16 Um, just greatest dang, you know, I knew it was going to happen cause I'd heard he was
01:20 not doing well and had pneumonia a number of times over the last few months and, and
01:25 some dementia, but still no one has come and doesn't make it any easier.
01:29 It was kind of a shock to be honest.
01:32 Yeah, it's really, it was weird for me that again, like no one else probably cares that
01:36 much, but for me, like in Indiana, when I, when you say the two words, Indiana basketball,
01:40 I think of you and I think of Bob Knight and for him to, for him to die on your birthday,
01:44 I was like, wow, this is a, this is a weird deal.
01:47 So, um, he was obviously, the word everyone's using is like complicated or, or complex or,
01:54 uh, yeah, like he's, he's got a complicated legacy, um, which I, I think is very fair,
02:02 but I think it's fair both ways.
02:03 And I think that people that use complicated as a, like as a softer way to say that he
02:08 was just an asshole, just an out and out raging asshole.
02:11 I don't necessarily think that's fair.
02:12 I think, I think if you're using complicated literally as, as a way to say, like, he did
02:18 a lot of great things, but he also did a lot of unforgivable things.
02:21 And it's very hazy as to, uh, you know, what that balance looked like.
02:26 Um, I, I feel like that's fair.
02:28 Where, what, what is your thought on all of that?
02:32 Just like his, his legacy in your mind.
02:34 I think he came, you know, he came from an army background, so everything was real structured
02:38 for him and there was a line and you didn't cross the line, everything was contained.
02:43 And when you did get outside of that box or outside of those lines, he struggled managing
02:48 that and he was, he was to put you back in.
02:50 Mark, you know, back in my day, coaches were to push kids to be the absolute best they
02:55 could be not physically, but although he did, I'm sure a lot of coaches did back then, but
03:01 as to, to get out of you, what you don't even see in yourself.
03:05 And if you did that today, it would hurt a player's feelings and it would hurt their
03:09 mommy's feelings.
03:11 And we'd have all kinds of social media issues, but that's why people today look at that stuff.
03:16 I think differently than guys like me back in the day who had a high school coach that
03:20 used to hit us in the legs with a towel because we weren't low enough in a defensive stance.
03:25 And my father's response was, would he hit you if you got lower?
03:28 And I said, no.
03:29 And he said, what are you talking to me for?
03:31 Get lower.
03:32 But I think, you know, with coach Knight pushing kids like he did, and then of course he crossed
03:37 the line a few times himself and created issues and was wrong, obviously, but at the same
03:43 time it was to push and push and push to get you to a breaking point almost to, to find
03:50 out what you've got and what your potential is.
03:52 And I think that was a big part of his legacy and the practices.
03:58 I had to clarify you, you said basketball.
04:00 I did not play basketball there.
04:01 Of course, Mark, you know that, but I lived with a player.
04:04 So I knew kind of what was going on and some things that you and I will not talk about
04:08 today, but his legacy of winning Mark, I think you look at the first team, the 75 and 76
04:17 teams.
04:18 That was my senior year in high school and then my freshman year of college.
04:21 So that was all just est in my brain forever because he put together, obviously a perfect
04:28 team that ended up going to be defeated.
04:30 When you look at the players he had, he had a great point guard, Quinn Buckner and Bobby
04:35 Wilkerson was a great two guard that could handle a tall, lanky guy.
04:38 And then Scott May was a solid forward and Kent Benson was a big, back in that day, a
04:44 big, not, not a whole lot different than Edie probably, but you know, he developed a heck
04:48 of a hook shot and, and, but, and then you know, last throw Laskowski in there and the
04:54 other one, I see him, I think his name slips me, but anyway, he did, he put together a
04:59 solid team that fit what he wanted to do.
05:01 The best players in the country.
05:02 I don't think so.
05:03 I don't think so.
05:04 He had some great players, but he had a team, he had a team and he knew what, what parts
05:09 he wanted to put together for that team.
05:11 Yeah.
05:12 You always, to me, what made him great.
05:13 You always like to say that he could, he could take a bad player and make him good, but sometimes
05:19 he would take a great player and also make that great player good.
05:23 Cause he was so, he like, he had such a vision for the team that he would sometimes, like
05:26 if you were to criticize his coaching abilities, it's that like the individual wouldn't shine
05:32 as much, but that was kind of by design.
05:36 But at the same time, yeah, he, I, I I've, I've heard you describe it like that a million
05:43 times and I thought that was pretty perfect.
05:45 That, that, that, that seems like a fair assessment of how he would, what he would get out of
05:50 guys.
05:51 He could, he could make everybody a good player no matter how good you are, even if you were,
05:53 even if you weren't great.
05:54 Absolutely.
05:55 Because you had to do it, you know, and it's structured as he was Mark offensively with
05:59 the motion offense, he gave him rules and the structure, but they were able to stay,
06:03 you know, spacing 15 to 18 feet apart.
06:05 You know, if you're near the ball, you go away and screen it.
06:08 If you're away from the ball, you're a cutter.
06:10 But at the end, the players had to make all those decisions.
06:12 So they did have a bit of freedom, but I will tell you this, as structured as he was, my
06:17 roommate for two or three years at IU was Butch Carter who played and Butch would have
06:22 a notebook and still has it to this day, you know, 50 years later, whatever it's been 45
06:27 years later, and Butch would come home to our apartment and sit in the chair with his
06:31 hands like in his, in his face, in his hands and stare at that book.
06:35 I mean, literally for two or three hours before every game, wow.
06:39 And flip pages and study it.
06:41 They all had to keep individual notebooks and it was that disciplined and that structured
06:46 at that time.
06:47 Which is I said this on mostly sports that I feel like night is a tug of war between
06:54 two turns of phrase, which is the ends justify the means, which is what he would he would
07:00 tell you that like, yes, I'm a hard ass.
07:03 Yes, I crossed a line many times.
07:06 Yes, not everybody would love to play for me.
07:09 But at the end of the day, my results speak for themselves and not just the winning.
07:12 In fact, he would be one that would point out the winning last.
07:16 He would say, my guys graduate, my guys are upstanding members of the community, which
07:21 is stuff that like now in 2023, you kind of roll your eyes at when you talk about college
07:24 athletics because it does, you know, as, as the professionalization of the sport is taking
07:30 place and you know, like all the, all the old timey, you know, nostalgic way to view
07:35 college sports is like, these guys are student athletes and they're returning boys into men.
07:40 All that stuff in 2023 feels a little hokey and corny.
07:44 But once upon a time, that was like kind of how the system worked.
07:50 And Knight did for all of his flaws, like he, he did check all of those boxes.
07:54 Like, like not every program was graduating players.
07:57 And he was like, that was, that was a point of pride with him.
08:00 And if you, if you screwed around, if you got arrested, if you nevermind arrested, if
08:04 you're just doing stuff you shouldn't have been doing, you were just not going to class.
08:08 Right.
08:09 So I think in his mind, he would say, yes, I was a hard ass.
08:14 Yes.
08:15 I didn't, you know, maybe people were scared of me, all that sort of thing.
08:17 But at the end of the day, I feel like I was hired to turn these boys into men.
08:21 I was hired to get them graduated.
08:23 I was hired to win basketball games.
08:24 I did all of that better than anyone's ever really done it ever.
08:28 So I am justified in all of the ways I went about that.
08:31 Now, the flip side of that, what his critics would say, the other turn of phrase would
08:35 be that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
08:38 And as much as you want to say that like all of your philosophies and your way of going
08:43 about things was the right way because the results speak for that, you maybe could have,
08:50 maybe the results were in spite of how you went about it and not because of how you went
08:54 about it.
08:55 And like, maybe, maybe you didn't need to abuse your players physically and mentally
08:58 and all that sort of thing.
08:59 And that's what, that's why I think it's so complicated is because it's not fair to say
09:02 he was just a raging asshole that was just a dick to everybody.
09:06 But it's also like, if you are someone that's like, "Hey man, the guy won.
09:09 The guy won.
09:10 What can I say?"
09:11 I don't think you can really diminish that like, yeah, some of his patterns of behavior
09:15 were bad.
09:17 And it wasn't just like a product of his time because as the, I mean, I remember growing
09:20 up in the 90s, dad, that like, people were still like, "This is a little crazy."
09:25 Like this guy's a little, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't like a snap of a finger happened
09:29 where it was like, "Oh yeah, we used to like not really notice that he was crazy."
09:33 But then, you know, society changed on it.
09:35 It turned on a dime and suddenly Bob Knight appeared to be crazy.
09:37 I mean, he was crazy his whole career.
09:41 I will tell you this, part of it, Mark, is he made a promise to parents, especially mothers
09:46 on recruiting visits and when they would come to Bloomington and that your kid will work
09:51 hard, he'll go to class, he'll get a degree, he'll earn the degree, it'll not be given
09:58 to his discipline and his way of enforcing this.
10:01 And they could play on the road and get back at three or if they got back before eight
10:04 o'clock and you had a class at eight o'clock, you're behind was at class.
10:08 And he would check on it and if you weren't there, you were going to pay for it.
10:12 And so he was very, very much that way, but he made promises to families and held to that
10:18 promise and kept pushing the kids because, not just because of that, because he wanted
10:23 to be the best they could be.
10:24 But you're right, looking back at it now, you go, "Wow, how did that guy?"
10:28 You know, I had coaches in high school and well, my fifth and sixth grade basketball
10:33 coach threw basketballs at us as we ran laps if we weren't running hard enough.
10:38 And I know a high school coach in Indiana that got fired for doing the very same thing
10:42 and I'm thinking, "What's wrong with that?"
10:43 I never did it, but he was a coach.
10:47 But it's such a different time and Coach Knight was, I mean, he was the man because he did
10:51 do things.
10:52 And Denny Crum, down the road from Bloomington in Louisville, he said, "I don't know that
10:58 he ever graduated a player."
11:00 And you know what he said?
11:01 "It's not my responsibility.
11:02 They paid me to coach basketball, not graduate players."
11:06 And Knight was the whole package.
11:07 He really was, Mark.
11:09 I know you wouldn't have wanted to play for him, but I would have had no problem for you
11:12 and Ryan to play for the man even knowing what I know.
11:14 Well, yeah, because it wasn't you.
11:15 What do you mean you wouldn't have a problem throwing me to the wolves?
11:19 I wouldn't have had a problem with anyone else playing for him either as long as I didn't
11:22 have to.
11:23 You know what?
11:24 You would have seen that I wasn't nuts when I raged at you.
11:26 Yeah, no kidding.
11:27 I gotta say, you keep talking about coaches you had when you were growing up in Indiana.
11:32 They weren't even influenced by Bob Knight, really, because Bob Knight wasn't Bob Knight
11:38 yet until after you had kind of gotten to college.
11:44 Growing up in the '90s in the state of Indiana playing basketball was wild because every
11:49 single coach, every coach that I both had and coached against and saw, literally every
11:56 memory of every single high school coach, every junior high coach, every person in the
12:00 state of Indiana ran a motion offense and thought yelling and screaming at you was what
12:05 you had to do to get through to kids.
12:09 It was because of Bob Knight.
12:11 That goes back to saying the results just spoke for themselves.
12:16 I guess if you're a basketball coach in the state of Indiana and you're a freshman basketball
12:22 coach at some high school and you're like, "Alright, well, I know the game a little bit,
12:26 but how should I carry myself as a coach?"
12:28 You're like, "Why would I not carry myself like the guy that's won three national titles
12:31 and 900 games?"
12:35 I understood how it happened.
12:36 Now as I got older, I sort of, I don't know if respect's the right word, but I appreciate
12:42 the legacy that Bob Knight has in the state of Indiana in that regard, that the trickle
12:46 down of philosophies of the game, of philosophies of how to be a leader, of all that sort of
12:52 stuff could not be overstated.
12:55 I only know my experience.
12:57 I only grew up in the state of Indiana, so I don't know what Bear Bryant was in the state
13:02 of Alabama or various other coaches other places.
13:05 But it would be hard for me to imagine a singular coach having more of an impact over an entire
13:10 state in terms of how you view the sport, the game that you're teaching, than what Bob
13:16 Knight was to Indiana.
13:19 I appreciate it now that I'm older, but I've got to say, being 11 years old and playing
13:24 for coaches, they're like, "Get your ass on the fucking line!
13:26 We're going to run!"
13:27 I was like, "What are we doing?
13:29 You're not Bob Knight!"
13:30 You know what, Mark?
13:31 He would be the first guy to tell you to coach within your own personality and be your own
13:37 person.
13:38 The philosophies, I did the same thing.
13:41 When he said, "Touch a line," he didn't mean to get this close to it.
13:44 He meant to touch the line.
13:46 Time.
13:47 If he wanted you there at 5 o'clock, 5 o'clock and one minute is after 5 o'clock, you're
13:51 going to pay for it.
13:52 You get there early.
13:53 So I used a lot of that.
13:55 I wasn't a yeller and a screamer, though.
13:57 But it's like you say, Coach Knight's influence on the state.
14:00 You know the Indiana tagline about basketball.
14:03 In 49 states, it's just basketball, but this is Indiana.
14:07 I think Coach Knight had as much to do with developing that mentality as any other person
14:12 in the state ever has.
14:13 Yeah, he was so...
14:15 He still will be.
14:16 There's still like the red sweater is iconic.
14:19 The white hair is iconic.
14:22 His entire existence.
14:23 Yeah, that's just something that I guess I want to say as we're reflecting on his life.
14:30 It's something that I guess I just took for granted, but that was just the way it was.
14:35 Bob Knight was the single...
14:38 For all the legends in the state of Indiana that have played basketball, that have coached
14:43 basketball, for what that state...
14:45 For what basketball means in that state, if you wanted to argue that Bob Knight is the
14:50 one figure that like...
14:51 And he's not even from Indiana.
14:52 He's from Ohio.
14:53 He's a Buckeye.
14:54 Right, right.
14:55 But if you wanted to argue that he is like the one figure, one icon that exists on a
15:00 different plane from everyone else in terms of just like a larger than life personality.
15:04 I mean, I don't...
15:06 That doesn't mean...
15:07 I don't mean to say that he's more important to the game of basketball than Larry Bird
15:09 or Oscar Robertson or anything else, but like just his lingering impact over the entire
15:16 state.
15:17 Like I said, I don't think it's just that he was a good basketball coach is the reason
15:20 why every high school coach wanted to be Bob Knight.
15:23 I think there was like just something about his persona that even though he kind of was
15:27 a dick, that represented like the people of Indiana and even the Purdue fans.
15:33 We talked about this before, Dad.
15:34 Like Gene Katie, it's not like Gene Katie was Dean Smith.
15:37 It's not like at IU you had like the hard ass that was like trying to yell at everybody
15:42 and then up at Purdue you had like the guy who was throwing his arm around all his players
15:45 and kissing them on the cheek and being the best friend.
15:49 Gene Katie was Bob Knight.
15:50 They were the same guy.
15:53 One of them won regular season Big Ten titles.
15:55 The other one won national championships.
15:57 That was like the difference between the two.
16:01 But yeah, for that to kind of be, but what I was saying was like Knight's persona, I
16:07 think to the outside world and certainly like people in North Carolina, I'm bringing them
16:11 up just because Dean Smith was such a polar opposite with how he seemed to, yeah, his
16:16 demeanor.
16:17 In public, in public.
16:18 Yeah, that's true too.
16:19 He could get after you.
16:22 But Dean, I think like Carolina people in particular probably look at Knight and they're
16:26 like what an asshole.
16:27 Like this guy sucks.
16:29 But I think it represented like the people of Indiana.
16:32 I do think that like that was sort of the attitude of the state.
16:35 That was Hoosiers, to your point, that's kind of how you grew up that way and you weren't
16:42 even, your coaches weren't influenced by Bob Knight.
16:44 That was just kind of how, as crazy as he was, I do think people in the state, Purdue
16:49 fans would obviously tell you that they didn't like Knight, yada yada.
16:53 But again, I would point out that your coach was basically Bob Knight as well.
16:58 I think that's the reason that people in the state had such the reverence because like
17:01 yeah, he's kind of an asshole, but that's what works for us.
17:06 We want to tell them.
17:07 Understood.
17:08 Yeah, that's how we run things.
17:09 Understood where he stood.
17:10 Right, right.
17:11 Yeah, I mean, you would agree with that?
17:13 Oh, absolutely.
17:14 Yeah, there's no question.
17:15 I mean, he and KD both were hard-nosed.
17:18 They come from hard-nosed backgrounds, tough guys.
17:21 Through that era, they grew up about the same time.
17:23 But through that era, that's just the way life was.
17:26 You worked hard for everything you got.
17:28 You were given nothing.
17:30 And you tried not to let others down.
17:33 That's the other thing, Mark.
17:34 People took pride in being a part of the university.
17:37 They weren't interested in their image or developing their own package for NIL and stuff
17:44 like that as players.
17:45 But no, they both remember what KD said to you when you went to his camp and he tried
17:51 to present you with two awards.
17:52 And you go, he said, "Come up here, Mark."
17:55 And you go, "Yeah."
17:57 He brought back the award and he did it.
17:59 You won another award and he brought it back.
18:01 And he goes, "Boy, you got some Bob Knight in you."
18:04 But they got along so much because they were so much alike, so well because they were so
18:09 much alike.
18:10 Yeah.
18:11 And a great deal of respect for each other, I think.
18:13 The other thing, too, I just mentioned in North Carolina.
18:19 The thing that I think gets lost in Knight, he wasn't just the raging asshole.
18:27 He had the softer side or had the respectful side, whatever else.
18:31 And one of the great examples that I always point to, speaking of the North Carolina stuff,
18:35 was his love of Michael Jordan.
18:37 Which I've seen some of the clips getting passed around yesterday when he passed.
18:43 That Knight absolutely loved Jordan.
18:47 You hear him talk about Jordan.
18:48 I mean, you hear him talk about a lot of his players.
18:50 He would always stand up for his players and defend them at times.
18:54 But the reverence he had for Michael Jordan was pretty freaking cool.
19:00 And this guy, this coach, called Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player he had ever
19:06 seen before Michael Jordan played one second of professional basketball.
19:10 And then Michael Jordan...
19:13 That's incredible.
19:14 Those clips are incredible to go back to where Knight's like, "I think he's the greatest
19:17 basketball player I've ever seen."
19:19 And you put that in context of today.
19:21 If a football guy was like, "Yeah, I think Caleb Williams is the best quarterback I've
19:25 ever seen."
19:26 You'd probably get fired.
19:27 You'd be like, "What are you talking about, dude?
19:30 You're insane."
19:31 But Knight was saying that about Jordan.
19:34 And then he ended up being not just right, but right in a massive...
19:38 Yeah, because in 1984, Bird and Magic and Dr. J and all these dudes, and he coached
19:45 Brodin in the Olympics.
19:49 Watching those clips is fun because it does show...
19:52 The one clip I saw was him telling the story, which I think he told on Letterman, but he
19:55 was telling the story of some...
19:57 I think Andy Katz retweeted it.
19:59 So if you're listening or watching, go to Andy Katz's Twitter and scroll down.
20:02 You'll find it.
20:03 He was telling the story of Jordan at the '84 Olympics.
20:07 He's at some luncheon or something, just speaking to coaches.
20:11 And Jordan had 19, 11, and 9 at halftime, and they're up by 29, and he's trying to motivate
20:16 the team.
20:17 And I don't want to spoil the story too much, but I watched that clip yesterday, and I was
20:21 like, "If you could just boil down who Bob Knight was into a three-minute clip, it was
20:27 that clip."
20:28 Because he kind of admits that he was unnecessarily an asshole, that they're up 29, and he's like,
20:32 "I've got to figure out a way to rip into these guys."
20:34 And I'm watching it, and I'm like, "No, you don't, Bob.
20:37 No, you don't.
20:39 You don't."
20:40 But then he tells the story in such a charming, endearing way.
20:45 He's got such a great sense of humor.
20:48 He's got such a reverence for Michael Jordan, and he's so complimentary to Michael as a
20:51 player, as a personality.
20:54 He calls Michael Jordan, he says his grin is the best grin you'll ever see, the million-dollar
20:59 smile.
21:01 But anyway, I'm rambling now, but that just came to mind.
21:06 That clip I thought was perfect, because it kind of illustrates him being complicated
21:10 in the sense that, yes, he was a hard-ass, but he also respected the hell out of guys
21:15 who busted their ass, and guys who met his standard.
21:20 He just had an impossible standard for a lot of people, but if you met that standard, he
21:25 showed you immense respect.
21:27 Well, he did.
21:28 And here's the thing about Jordan, too, Mark, to think about.
21:31 He had just been led to a national championship by Isaiah Thomas, who ended up being a pretty
21:36 decent player himself.
21:38 And it still said that about Jordan.
21:42 And the other thing, to back up, '74, they should have won the national championship
21:48 in '75, right?
21:49 And then they did a perfect season in '76.
21:52 Well, the summer of '74, '75, that summer before they had a great '74, '75 season, I
22:00 went to his basketball camp.
22:03 And there were three of us there, a sophomore from my hometown, from Logan Sport, Mark Lozier,
22:08 who was being recruited by IU and some Big Ten schools, and myself.
22:13 But I was in the middle.
22:14 Or no, I was on the outside.
22:17 And anyway, I'm laying back, like, asleep, and there's a free throw lecture.
22:21 I think Laskowski is doing it, or Bence or somebody's giving a lecture on free throws.
22:27 And I'm going into my senior year, so I lay back, and he goes, "Hey!"
22:29 Just top of his lungs.
22:30 "Hey!
22:31 You!"
22:32 And I'm like, "You!
22:35 I don't take that shit from Scott May.
22:37 I don't take it from Quinn Buckner.
22:38 I'm sure as hell not going to take it from you.
22:41 Get your ass out of here!"
22:42 And then he goes, "You!" and pointed at Lozier, but he knew him, so he skipped over him.
22:46 And he goes, "You!
22:48 You go with him!"
22:49 So he kicked us out of this free throw thing.
22:52 That was the year Coach K was there as an assistant.
22:55 Coach K comes up to the dorm and gets us and takes us back over to apologize tonight.
23:00 And he rips into me and this sophomore.
23:02 Said, "This kid's a sophomore.
23:03 You're going into your senior year.
23:04 Is that right?"
23:05 "Yes, sir."
23:06 "You need to be a better leader and be focused and pay attention.
23:10 And you enjoy the rest of this kid."
23:11 Because it was like on a Tuesday.
23:12 And Coach K came up and said, "You've got a long week ahead of you.
23:15 You don't want to screw this up or be sent home."
23:17 And so when I laid, he said, "Thanks for coming in."
23:21 He smacked me on the back so hard that I stumbled.
23:24 So I turned around.
23:25 No, I didn't.
23:26 But that was a, that was, so my point for telling that story is he was that disciplined
23:32 and wasn't taking anything from anybody before that '74, '75 team that should have won the
23:38 national championship and then went on to the '76 team.
23:41 So he didn't care who you were, what the setting was.
23:44 And you know what?
23:45 He was 33 years old.
23:46 Yeah.
23:47 I guess the take-home point is that he walked the walk.
23:51 Like he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't a dick just to be a dick.
23:55 He wasn't a dick because he was on like an ego trip.
23:58 He truly, and again, I'm not excusing the behavior and I'm not saying that this is the
24:03 way to do things.
24:05 I'm just adding the full context that like, he wasn't a guy that was just a dick for,
24:10 to be, yeah, like I said, just to be a dick.
24:13 He truly held you to that standard.
24:15 And once you hit the state, like he truly, like in that moment, yeah, he probably wasn't
24:19 going to recruit you to come to Indiana and you probably like, weren't going to matter
24:23 that much to his life, but he wasn't doing that just to like humiliate you.
24:27 He was doing that because he truly thought that he was making you a better player, a
24:31 better man, a better whatever else.
24:33 And yeah, you could argue all you want about whether that's the right way to go about that.
24:37 But Bob Knight in his heart of hearts was acting out of what he believed was the right
24:44 motivation.
24:45 And that's where, that's why complicated is such the perfect word because it is like,
24:49 there was a moment in time where that was how things were done.
24:53 Society shifted, society changed, people learn things that like, you know, this is, and then
24:58 as time went on, his behavior kind of stayed consistent, but it seemed more and more insane.
25:03 And then at no point in time was he interested in ever changing how he did things.
25:08 Oh no, he wasn't.
25:09 You weren't.
25:10 But you know what Mark, you know, you know why Mary Thomas, I mean, Isaiah Thomas went
25:14 to IU?
25:15 Because Mary, Isaiah's mama wanted it that way.
25:19 Yeah.
25:20 She wanted him to go in a boy and come out a man.
25:23 And yeah, that was her expectation.
25:25 That's why she was so into to IU.
25:28 But I will tell you another personal story that you can't find online is I had a night
25:34 for coaching and basketball, Bob Knight coach night for coaching and basketball.
25:38 And the very first day we did, the class was packed and it was hard to get into.
25:43 And he would walk out and walk in front of the class and say, good morning and say, I've
25:48 got a question for you.
25:49 How many of you people have ever had a coach you didn't like?
25:52 Well, more than half the room raised their hands.
25:53 And he goes, you know what?
25:55 We never liked all you little bastards either.
25:58 And that's how it started.
26:01 And then the next thing he said to see that door back there, that door is an eight o'clock
26:05 class at door locks at eight o'clock.
26:07 There are no tardies.
26:08 You miss one time, the best grade you can get as a B, you miss twice the best grade
26:12 you can get as a C, you miss three times.
26:15 Don't come back.
26:16 You failed the class.
26:17 So he had to keep detailed notebooks and turn those in at the end.
26:21 So guess what?
26:22 You don't want Mark.
26:23 Guess what the attendance was like?
26:24 Yeah, I imagine it was pretty good.
26:27 Yeah, right.
26:28 It was perfect because he set the standard so high.
26:31 He said what he meant and he meant what he said and he held to it.
26:35 And there were a couple that tested it and they didn't get a A plus on their transcript
26:39 like I did.
26:40 Yeah, it's just the other thing that has been fun to read is kind of the recollections of
26:47 how emotional I guess, like obviously he's emotional.
26:51 He has a short temper, but like he's a very thoughtful guy.
26:54 He's a very, you know, Bill has actually wrote a really good article on ESPN about some of
27:00 the some of his memories with night and just like how reflective he was.
27:05 He's way more intelligent than I think people outside the state of Indiana realize.
27:09 Oh, yeah.
27:10 Like he's because it's again like his persona to the outside, the outside world.
27:14 It's like not necessarily familiar on a on a on the level of his favorite book is and
27:21 some of his philosophies came from the art of war.
27:23 Art of war.
27:24 Yeah, he would always.
27:25 Yeah, he was a history major at Ohio State.
27:26 Yeah, yeah.
27:27 I mean, and his and his strategies were developed, some of them from that book.
27:32 Yeah.
27:33 And he I think his persona is he's just like a raging asshole.
27:37 Like I keep going back to that description and and it wasn't just like unhinged rage.
27:42 It was like he did have a short temper, but like there was there was a brain behind the
27:46 rage is what I'm saying.
27:47 Like there was he wasn't just like a dumb jock that like fell into basketball and then
27:53 would yell and scream at people.
27:55 And then he won games.
27:57 He was very calculated, very smart, very.
28:01 But with all of that, that I guess that is the confusing part is like for a guy who is
28:05 so reflective and relationships mean so much to him, which is why he's an all time, I mean,
28:10 goat level grudge holder, you know, and like he's a in the.
28:15 But like the the the flip side to him being a guy who's so stubborn and holds the grudges,
28:20 the reason he holds the grudges is because relationships matter to him so much.
28:23 So when he feels like he's been slighted in a relationship that he valued, he will remember
28:28 that for the rest of his life and he will hold that against you.
28:30 And I guess like what makes it confusing for me is like for a guy who has I do think he
28:35 was so highly emotionally intelligent and he had such an appreciation for relationships
28:40 and such an appreciation for the things outside the sport of basketball.
28:45 It is it remains very confusing and always will.
28:47 Like why he couldn't see that his behavior was over the line so often.
28:51 Like why why can't you see that?
28:53 Like when you demean when a reporter asked you a simple question and you lash out in
28:58 that way like surely, Bob, you can see that like that was over the line and you should
29:02 and that that's the part that like I don't fully.
29:05 I don't think he could.
29:06 I think you know what I mean?
29:07 I think I he has he had no patience for stupid stuff, stupid people, stupid questions, you
29:14 know, and didn't want time for it.
29:16 He was so focused on flushing that game, you know, the press conference going to the next
29:21 one.
29:22 He didn't like dumb questions from people or repetitive questions.
29:26 But his his sense of structure and right and wrong.
29:30 Like I said, you get outside that and it kind of almost freaked him out.
29:34 Yeah.
29:35 And when you when you attacked him or his team or his family, it got ugly in a hurry.
29:40 Yeah.
29:41 And he his sense of way the world should be.
29:45 Like you said, his someone judging him was unacceptable.
29:48 Right?
29:49 Exactly.
29:50 I guess that's that's that's that's that's the hang up that you can never reconcile is
29:54 that Bob Knight held everybody to impossible standard, but he never really fully held himself
29:57 to that standard in terms of he did with like the punctuality and with the you know, like
30:02 the discipline and the following the law and all that sort of thing.
30:05 He did not with like the relationship part of it.
30:08 And you know, not all none of us are perfect.
30:10 But like that was that was something that like even now, now that he's passed, I will
30:13 always just be like, that's tough.
30:16 That's a tough one for me.
30:17 But you know, but I think part of him holding others to his standards was him holding himself
30:22 to his standards.
30:23 Yeah, I'm saying I've got this ideal that you need to understand the way I do things
30:30 and you need to be on time.
30:31 You need to ask intelligent questions.
30:33 You need to put thought into this.
30:35 And if you don't, I'm going to straighten you out.
30:37 And that's part of being holding my structure.
30:41 Kind of.
30:42 I don't know.
30:43 Yeah, I hear what you're saying.
30:44 But also like if one of his players, you know, like if if if one of the players threw a chair
30:51 during a free throw, you know, like how would how would not have handled that?
30:55 It wouldn't have been he wouldn't have turned to him and been like, good call.
30:57 Good.
30:58 Yeah.
30:59 Good work.
31:00 No, but you know what, Mark, he was smart enough.
31:02 He used to yell and scream at Butch Carter.
31:05 And he'd be talking to other guys on the bench.
31:07 Yeah, they couldn't take it.
31:09 And Butch would stand nose to nose with him, not disrespectfully, because Butch was brought
31:13 up that way.
31:14 And Butch was a whole lot like Knight also.
31:17 And they were both hard nose and Knight knew Knight coach Knight knew that Butch could
31:20 take it, but he knew these other guys would melt by being yelled and screamed at.
31:24 So he would make Butch a captain, would run all that stuff through Butch.
31:28 Yeah.
31:29 And which was pretty smart of him.
31:31 I think that's right.
31:32 At the time, was it the what what team was it that had the most losses for a national
31:37 championship team?
31:38 Was that 81 or 87?
31:39 Oh, Indiana, you mean?
31:40 Yeah.
31:41 Yeah.
31:42 I don't know.
31:43 That's a good one.
31:44 One of their team at the time had the most losses, I think, for a national champion.
31:51 And I forget the story because I don't remember if it was Alford or was Isaiah that Knight
31:56 got the team together and ripped into them and kind of turned the team over to one of
32:01 those players without saying he was turning it over to one of those players.
32:05 And they never lost a game after that.
32:06 I don't know why I can't remember that.
32:09 87 was they were 30 and four, so it probably wasn't them.
32:13 So what was 81?
32:15 1980, 81, Indiana Hoosiers.
32:17 Hang on.
32:18 Yeah.
32:19 So anyway, he well, they were 26 and nine overall.
32:23 So is 81.
32:24 Yeah.
32:25 Yeah.
32:26 So I think it was Isaiah that took control basically of practice and then they never
32:29 lost another game.
32:30 You know, it's your old thing of a player's a player's meeting and then things go.
32:35 Yeah.
32:36 Yeah.
32:37 Players only.
32:38 Players only meetings.
32:39 Yeah.
32:40 Players only meetings are undefeated, man.
32:41 Yeah.
32:42 I mean, I'm talking about my time there.
32:43 They're at 1980.
32:44 They won the Big Ten and all that.
32:50 But Knight hated the NBA, hated everything about the NBA.
32:54 But from that 1980 team, he had five guys in the same team picture that had a huge impact
33:00 on the NBA, not five guys from Indiana, five guys that were on the same team at the same
33:05 time and had a huge impact on the NBA.
33:09 And I think that's fascinating for a guy playing for a coach that hates the NBA.
33:14 Who were the guys?
33:15 Well, Butch coached the Raptors.
33:17 Butch coached the Raptors.
33:19 Glenn Grunwald was not known as a player.
33:22 He came out of Illinois, I think was before Isaiah, was the first all state player four
33:27 years in a row.
33:28 And Glenn blew out his knee.
33:29 I mean, he blew it out before his freshman year at IU.
33:33 So he kind of gumped through his four years.
33:34 But he was the president of the Raptors.
33:36 And then Mike Woodson was a coach at the Knicks.
33:39 And Randy Whitman coached at Washington and Minnesota.
33:45 And then Isaiah Thomas, of course, what he did coach the Pacers and president of the
33:49 Knicks.
33:50 But I mean, just unbelievable to have that kind of an impact on the league that your
33:54 head coach hated.
33:55 I just think it's fascinating.
33:56 Yeah.
33:57 And then Coach K is his coaching tree as well.
34:00 So then he gets...
34:01 How do coaching trees work?
34:03 Does he get all Coach K's coaching tree as well?
34:05 Is that how it...
34:06 I guess that's how a tree works, right?
34:07 The branch off the branch.
34:08 He grows out.
34:09 Yeah.
34:10 Yeah.
34:11 You know, Coach K was only coached with Coach Knight one year.
34:13 Yeah.
34:14 And then took the Army job.
34:15 That's right.
34:16 Yeah.
34:17 Coach K was at IU.
34:18 Yeah.
34:19 For that one year when I got thrown out of camp.
34:21 I think the thing that gets lost too with Knight is his sense of humor.
34:25 That he was genuinely very, very, very funny.
34:28 Like he was...
34:30 He wasn't funny in like an ironic way where it's like, it's funny how mad this guy is
34:35 at this situation.
34:36 Like, he was actually funny to me.
34:40 And yeah, did you feel that as well?
34:43 Like he was...
34:44 Oh, the Bob Knight show.
34:45 He had...
34:46 Yeah.
34:47 He invited George King, the athletic director at Purdue to come onto the show and he didn't
34:50 come on.
34:51 So Knight had a guy bring a jackass on the show.
34:56 A literal donkey.
34:57 Yeah.
34:58 A literal donkey came onto the set and he said his name was Jack S. Purdue.
35:06 So he had a great sense of humor.
35:08 Yeah.
35:09 I think he was pretty self-aware with a sense of humor too.
35:11 Yeah.
35:12 Yeah.
35:13 Go ahead.
35:14 Go ahead.
35:15 Sorry.
35:16 Well, no, no, no.
35:17 Mark Patrick did a thing and Knight was there and he talked about this.
35:21 Mark Patrick had to present these awards or prizes that these people won going to these
35:25 different countries.
35:27 And he said some, made some joke about Puerto Rico with Knight sitting in there after Knight
35:32 had punched the cop and whatever.
35:35 And Knight came up and said, you are one funny.
35:37 And will you come down and do my golf outing?
35:41 I mean, Mark tweeted about it.
35:42 So it's public stuff.
35:43 Oh, wow.
35:44 Wow.
35:45 Yeah.
35:46 Yeah.
35:47 And so anyway, he went down for many years and did Knight's thing.
35:49 But so Knight, here he is making fun of Knight in Puerto Rico.
35:53 So Coach Knight decided he didn't want to go back.
35:55 He's been there once.
35:56 But I think to your point, like you said earlier, like if you, I don't know if stand up to him
36:01 is the right word, but if you just like, if you're not, I think you can sniff fear.
36:07 And if you're someone who doesn't show the fear, he probably does respect you.
36:11 And I think that like watching him talk about Michael Jordan, I can't help but think that
36:15 that played a huge part in it was that Michael Jordan is the player version of Bob Knight,
36:20 which is to say that like Jordan is, he's way more revered, obviously, and people like
36:26 Jordan's legacy in basketball is a very, very positive one, obviously, whereas Knight's
36:31 is probably not nationwide.
36:35 But they're kind of similar in the sense that like they were just insanely intense.
36:42 They held everyone around them to, again, an impossible standard that like almost nobody
36:46 could reach.
36:48 They acted out physically, like I mean, Jordan punched a teammate in the face.
36:53 But for some reason, like people, the Jordan part of it, like Jordan's was okay.
36:57 Jordan's was like, damn, dude, that guy really cared about winning.
37:00 Knight's is like, you know, like what an asshole.
37:03 But I, you know, whether I'm not here to say how people should feel about one or the other
37:07 or anything else, Jordan was, Jordan is way cooler than Bob Knight, really just comes
37:10 down to that.
37:12 But I do think in trying to just kind of connect the dots on like why a kid in 1984 playing
37:18 in the Olympics for Bob Knight after Knight had just eliminated Jordan.
37:21 That was the last game Jordan ever played, right?
37:25 In '84?
37:26 Yeah.
37:27 And the NCAA tournament, right?
37:28 I think so.
37:29 He knocks Jordan out of the NCAA tournament and then they're playing in the Olympics.
37:35 And for Bob Knight to say, this is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen at a time
37:38 when Kareem had already had like a pretty long career and been so dominant and Bird
37:42 and Magic are at the height of their powers, it probably speaks to like his experience.
37:48 He could just like pick up right away that this kid is the exact level of intense that
37:52 I'm looking for in a basketball player.
37:54 And I think to bring it full circle, I think that that kind of explains his approach to
37:59 all of it was like, if you can reach my level, I will respect you.
38:03 And kind of talking about your Mark Patrick story, like I think Mark Patrick stepping
38:07 up and having the balls to make a Bob Knight punch in a cop joke in front of Bob Knight.
38:12 It was like, hey man, that's, I take balls.
38:15 I respect you.
38:16 Yeah, that's respect.
38:17 But you know what?
38:18 It's almost like parenting, Mark.
38:19 If you don't have one of your children or your children say at some point they hate
38:23 you, you're probably not parenting hard enough or structured enough.
38:26 You know, and it's almost like that with Knight.
38:30 If he didn't push you hard enough to where you felt or you said that you hated him, he
38:34 wasn't pushing you hard enough to be the best you could be.
38:37 You know?
38:38 Yeah.
38:39 So I think that was part.
38:40 But I will say this, the guys that loved him obviously respected him.
38:44 The guys that didn't like him, I don't know that any truly hated him, still respected
38:50 him, I think.
38:51 Yeah.
38:52 I mean, they may not admit it, but they did.
38:54 And I really believe that they did.
38:56 Most of them, maybe a couple of them.
38:58 But I know one that didn't care for him at all.
39:01 Speaks of him very highly today.
39:04 Really?
39:05 And didn't care for him.
39:06 But that's a respect factor.
39:09 Yeah, I, that's where I think I landed on it is like, I, I think if I would have played
39:16 for him, I probably would have been that I would have been like, I hated it.
39:18 It was the worst four years of my life.
39:20 But damn, and I was like, damn, I respect that, man.
39:25 That's like, I still carry a little trauma from that four year run.
39:28 But gotta be honest, I respect the hell out of the guy.
39:31 If you evaluate it, you can learn how not to treat people too.
39:35 You know, that's true.
39:36 Yeah.
39:37 Yeah, that's true.
39:40 What's your version of the Larry Bird story that you believe?
39:43 What's the like, what's the because there's a lot of I mean, Brandon, we sat down to do
39:49 mostly sports.
39:50 He turned to me and was like, I mentioned the thing about Jordan, about how much night
39:56 love Jordan and called him the goat before Jordan played one second of NBA basketball.
40:00 And then Brandon goes, Yeah, but he also ran off Larry Bird.
40:03 And I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not the story.
40:06 And then he goes, Well, what's the story?
40:07 And I was like, that's a great point.
40:09 There are a lot of stories out there.
40:11 What's the one that you believe?
40:13 I think he I just believe that Bird got there and found it was an uncomfortable fit.
40:18 Yeah.
40:19 And I would expect back then racial relationships were different.
40:26 I don't know that I can define how they were different, but they were different.
40:29 And I imagine that was a bit I don't know.
40:31 But I think when you come in with African American players from inner cities and different
40:37 experiences than small town, French lick in the middle of nowhere, Indiana, maybe he had
40:43 some adjustments.
40:44 Indiana State was not that diverse.
40:49 I think so.
40:50 I think that may.
40:51 But I don't know.
40:52 I think I think he just felt like he was uncomfortable there after being there a while.
40:55 I don't think he was afraid of the work.
40:56 I don't think he was afraid.
40:57 Obviously, being pushed because Bird was.
40:59 Yeah, that's what I mean.
41:01 I just learned this the other day.
41:02 Speaking of Bird, I find it fascinating.
41:04 You know how you heard his back shoveled in his mother's driveway in French lick, Indiana.
41:08 Oh, yeah.
41:09 Yeah.
41:10 Oh, yeah.
41:11 I mean, the guy had millions of dollars he could have had taken, but he wanted to do
41:15 it by hand himself.
41:17 And but so he wasn't afraid of the work.
41:19 I don't know that he was afraid.
41:20 And I'd probably had never been coached like Coach Knight coached him.
41:24 Yeah.
41:25 So but I really don't know the truth either.
41:28 But that would be I think Knight letting Bird walk, which is like, you know, it doesn't
41:33 really work that way.
41:34 Like, I'm not I don't know what he's going to hold him hostage.
41:37 But Knight letting Bird go is actually a feather in the cap for like Knight sticking to his
41:43 principles and because I like Knight Knight's not a dude that like would fight if a guy
41:48 wants to leave.
41:49 He's not a guy that was like in a fight.
41:50 Oh, I don't want to.
41:51 Yeah.
41:52 Yeah.
41:53 Like, I don't think it was I don't think it was indicative of Knight's like inability
41:55 to understand how good Larry Bird was or was going to become.
41:58 I think he probably knew that guy's really, really good.
42:01 But if he doesn't want to be here, it's never going to work.
42:03 It's never going to.
42:04 Right.
42:05 Yeah.
42:06 I used to tell kids that would come up to me and say, Coach, I don't know if I want
42:08 to play basketball or wrestle.
42:10 I say, go wrestle.
42:11 Go get the hell out of here.
42:12 You know, Mark, the other side of it is it's you know that you played enough sports and
42:17 we're really good at it.
42:18 But it's a lot of hard work when you love it.
42:20 I can't imagine.
42:21 Yeah.
42:22 Do something you just kind of I'd like to try.
42:23 You know, maybe I want to go to Indiana and try and maybe make that, you know.
42:26 Yeah.
42:27 And I don't know what that got, because Bird was never afraid to work, obviously.
42:32 I got one story I want to share that, you know, but I'm going to share with the audience.
42:35 I may or may not have told this before.
42:37 My one Bob Knight story was in.
42:41 It was 2008.
42:42 It was the 2008 season.
42:43 We were in the night.
42:44 I think it was the preseason.
42:45 And I t we the year we won the postseason and I t we actually played in the preseason
42:49 and I t in Madison Square Garden as well.
42:52 And Knight was calling it for for ESPN.
42:56 And so I'm warming up on the court of Madison Square Garden.
42:59 It's one of the more surreal experiences of my life to be to be warming up in a basketball
43:04 game on the court of Madison Square Garden.
43:06 And Bob Knight's sitting over there about to call the game.
43:10 And I usually don't get I wouldn't say I was starstruck.
43:13 I don't really get starstruck.
43:15 I'm not usually one to go meet celebrities or, you know, I kind of even if it's someone
43:21 I admire, I usually just kind of like let him walk by and then just internally process
43:25 whatever is going on.
43:26 But for some reason in that moment, I was like, I got to I want to go shake Bob Knight's
43:29 hand.
43:30 And I don't know what I'm going to say to him.
43:31 But like, I mean, it's Bob Knight right there in Madison Square Garden.
43:34 And he's just he's just he's just leaning up against the scorers table with his arms
43:37 crossed waiting for the game to start.
43:38 He's about to call our game.
43:41 And I walked over and I just said, Coach, I got to I just want to come over and say
43:46 like I grew up in Hendricks County, west side of Indianapolis in the 90s, and you like were
43:53 basketball to me.
43:55 You're a hero of mine.
43:56 You're an icon in the state.
43:57 And I just want to come over and introduce myself and shake your hand and just thank
44:01 you for a lot of fun memories growing up.
44:03 And, you know, my father and I watched a lot of your games and yada, yada, yada, you know,
44:07 just kind of given that whole spiel.
44:09 And he just looks at me and could see the Ohio the big Ohio State logo on my chest,
44:13 which he's a Buckeye, too, which is right.
44:14 You know, I don't know if I knew that at the time, to be completely honest with you.
44:20 And he just looks at me and he goes, you said you're from you're from Indiana, huh?
44:23 And I go, yeah.
44:24 And he goes, Well, I tell you one thing.
44:25 If I was still at IU, you wouldn't be playing for the Buckeyes, you'd be playing for me.
44:29 I was like, Oh, my God.
44:32 But it was in that moment, Dad, that I realized that Bob Knight had dementia.
44:34 I think that was the first.
44:38 I think what Bob I was like, I was like, Coach, I don't think you have you been watching me
44:41 warm up, coach, because I don't think.
44:43 I like shooters that.
44:45 Yeah, that's true.
44:47 That's true.
44:48 He probably he probably actually could have made me a decent player.
44:51 I probably would have fit well with him.
44:52 I mean, hell, I grew up running his I grew up playing for knockoffs of him.
44:56 I grew up playing for the diet versions of him all my life.
44:59 I'm sure when I got to you, he would have yelled at me and I just would have been like,
45:02 listen, man, I'm I'm used to this.
45:05 When I built Titus as a father, you think you're going to you think you're going to
45:08 scare me?
45:09 Um, but no, I that was something that, you know, I know he was just saying it and he
45:14 didn't he didn't he didn't know me from Adam.
45:16 But right to have Bob Knight say that to me that moment, I was like, oh, my God, that's
45:20 that's a good thing, though.
45:22 Here's a kid coming up.
45:23 That's got the balls to do that.
45:26 Yeah, that's true.
45:27 That's true.
45:28 I mean, he he's he's an intimidating guy.
45:30 I mean, like, that's the beyond beyond the demeanor.
45:32 He's six, five, like big hulking shoulders, you know, and he's standing there with his
45:37 arms crossed and got the scowl on his face.
45:40 And yeah, yeah.
45:41 But you walked into his face and he yeah, he welcomed you.
45:46 I walked in with no plan either, like because as soon as I started talking, I was like,
45:49 what am I saying to him?
45:50 Like, what is what is the what is the thesis of this statement?
45:53 I don't really know.
45:54 But yeah, but you know what?
45:57 We talked about all the basketball stuff with Coach Knight, but I've got one here.
46:02 She's I know her not well, but nor through my involvement at Brownsburg High School.
46:07 But Angela Gannott is a news anchor in Indianapolis, and she sent this tweet out, said Coach Knight.
46:14 She was a cheerleader at IU back in the day.
46:17 Coach Knight yelled at me wants to sit our fans down.
46:19 He wouldn't allow our fans to be obnoxious when the opposing team shot foul shots.
46:24 True story.
46:26 We had two pair of shoes.
46:27 So the cheerleaders never wore dirty ones on the assembly hall floor.
46:31 He was he was the reason I went to IU.
46:35 So I'm just a players.
46:36 It's the entire state market.
46:38 You know, you've got an aunt that could not watch the game at 730 when Coach Knight was
46:42 coaching so she would watch it delayed at three in the morning when it came on again.
46:49 She became a huge IU fan because of night and the number of people.
46:52 Sage Steele put out a tweet said she went to IU because of Bob Knight.
46:58 These are young girls at the time making that decision, not because of his discipline or
47:02 his influence, but just what he did for the university and for the state of Indiana.
47:08 Yeah.
47:09 Well, thanks for hopping on.
47:11 This was I don't know.
47:12 I enjoyed it.
47:14 I'm sure we'll do this again, whether on air or off air.
47:17 Like we'll be doing this a lot.
47:18 But yeah, I'll never forget it for sure.
47:20 Like I said, like it is.
47:22 I think it's it's something that's like, like you put it perfectly at the beginning.
47:26 It's like you kind of saw it coming, but it's still it's still kind of hits you a little
47:31 bit just because for me, like I said at the top, like there I that would be overstating
47:36 it that Bob Knight.
47:38 It's not like you and I, you know, we don't exalt the man as a god or anything.
47:44 But if you really sit down and think about our relationship and how many times like our
47:48 you and I like have a bond through basketball, through Indiana Hoosiers basketball, and it's
47:52 Bob, like, you know, like the trickle down of like his influence on that program, then
47:56 on the state, then on the sport that, you know, and I like kind of recount the childhood
48:00 and I'm like, yeah, I mean, I guess I guess it was him.
48:03 It was like, but, you know, it was like me, my dad and Bob Knight kind of like that was
48:06 yeah, that was how I grew up, you know, like that was so for me, that was that, you know,
48:11 like it was news that was not shocking, but it was like it kind of makes you pause and
48:14 reflect and think about like a bygone era, even of all the things we were talking about.
48:19 They're like, yeah, they're never there truly never will be another Bob Knight because the
48:22 second another Bob Knight pops his head up somewhere, society is going to beat the shit
48:27 out of him and say, hey, we don't want you to know about night.
48:31 Nice.
48:32 So I got I got a question for you.
48:35 Yeah.
48:36 Should they or should they not be naming the arena assembly hall?
48:39 Yeah, absolutely.
48:40 Absolutely.
48:41 They should.
48:42 Yeah, I you know, it is a complicated thing.
48:44 But I think I don't know.
48:48 I think the the for for that university in particular, like what he did for the university
48:55 far, far, far, far outweighs the bad.
48:58 And yeah, I think it's a no brainer.
49:01 I think it's kind of embarrassing.
49:03 They didn't do when he was alive to be completely.
49:05 I think the way that's the right answer.
49:07 Yeah, I think I think I think he was right to hold the grudge.
49:12 And I think it became like a pissing match between the school and him and they didn't
49:15 want to back down and he didn't want to back down and like honest to God, like it was really
49:19 cool to see him back at Purdue.
49:21 But like anybody that was at the Purdue game that that the Hoosiers lost by a thousand,
49:25 which we don't need to talk about.
49:27 No, no, no.
49:29 But it even watching it, you're kind of like, I don't I mean, not to be crass, but like
49:34 I don't know if he's all there as that's going on.
49:36 And it's like and that kind of stunk because it's like this is this should have been solved
49:42 years ago and someone should have stepped up and connected the bridge, the gap.
49:47 It's like when Miles Brand died, it should have been the time, you know, and for whatever
49:50 reason it never happened.
49:52 And Indiana was saying because Knight's hardheaded, Knight was saying Indiana doesn't appreciate
49:55 me.
49:56 And yeah, it does suck because the guy's a legend.
49:59 He's he's beyond basketball like you touched on a lot.
50:04 And yeah, he's controversial, to say the least.
50:08 But his impact in the state of Indiana is without question and certainly at the university
50:14 is without question.
50:15 So well, Mark, there's a lot of college and high school that go through things with administration
50:20 that have no concept or understanding of what one the athletic program means to a university
50:25 to what it means to a coach and the coach's livelihood that you're messing with and things
50:30 like that.
50:31 And that's, you know, what happens in a high school level, especially, you know, in Indiana.
50:35 I mean, there's expectations from people that have no concept.
50:38 They just hear from people in the community and complain and whining because they push
50:42 my boy too hard and he didn't like it.
50:45 So but anyway, yeah, it's a tough day.
50:48 It'd be interesting to see moving forward how he's honored.
50:51 You know, I thought the governor might lower the flags for him, you know, it would have
50:56 been well accepted.
50:57 Oh, yeah.
50:58 Yeah, that's a that's a big time in 49 states.
51:01 It's just basketball statement right there.
51:02 Yeah, I mean, I'm going to say this right now.
51:05 I have no intention of ever running for governor of the state of Indiana.
51:08 But if I do, if I change my mind on that, my promise to the Hoosiers everywhere is that
51:12 when a basketball legend in the state of Indiana dies, we will we will lower the flags to half
51:17 staff.
51:18 We will do that when I'm governor.
51:19 I'm a guy.
51:20 All right, buddy.
51:21 All right, dad.
51:22 Love you.
51:23 Appreciate you making time.
51:24 Yeah, we'll have to.
51:25 Oh, any last thing.
51:26 Purdue, Kentucky thoughts.
51:27 Purdue like where I got I got asked about that yesterday in the show that I'm high on
51:37 Purdue and Kentucky going into this year.
51:39 Where where what are you what's your feeling on on that?
51:43 I disagree with both of them.
51:45 All right.
51:46 That's what I don't lose the 16.
51:47 See me get, you know, be be great again.
51:49 You weren't very good last year.
51:51 Why are you any better this year?
51:52 You got some guys back.
51:53 I still wear that sucky ass town of West Lafayette.
51:57 ugly school colors and a goofy nickname.
51:59 So all right, well, hold hold hold off for now because we're going to you obviously you
52:05 and I both know the second Purdue loses their first game I'm calling you and I've got my
52:10 phone with me here.
52:11 Don't don't exhaust all your bullets yet.
52:13 Keep them locked in the chamber and we'll have you back.
52:16 So all right.
52:17 Love you.
52:18 Appreciate it.
52:19 All right.
52:20 You too.
52:21 Take care, Marco.
52:21 (whooshing)