Stakeholders with Shireen: Azimah Abdul Rahim

Free Malaysia Today

In this episode of FMT’s talk show series, “Stakeholders, with Shireen”, the co-founder and chair of Parents’ Action Group for Education Malaysia, Azimah Abdul Rahim shares with Shireen Muhiudeen how the country can realise the enormous potential of its children through education.  Shireen Muhiudeen is the author of the book “We Are All Stakeholders: Culture, Politics, and Radical Accountability in the Boardroom”, published on April 14, 2023 and available on Amazon.   She is also a fund manager and founder of Corston-Smith and a senior ESG investment professional in Emerging Asia. She is also an FMT columnist.  Free Malaysia Today is Malaysia’s leading bilingual news portal.   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  Free Malaysia Today is an independent, bi-lingual news portal with a focus on Malaysian current affairs.    Subscribe to our channel - http://bit.ly/2Qo08ry   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check us out at https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com Follow FMT on Facebook: http://bit.ly/2Rn6xEV Follow FMT on Dailymotion: https://bit.ly/2WGITHM Follow FMT on Twitter: http://bit.ly/2OCwH8a  Follow FMT on Instagram: https://bit.ly/2OKJbc6 Follow FMT on TikTok : https://bit.ly/3cpbWKK Follow FMT Telegram - https://bit.ly/2VUfOrv Follow FMT LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/3B1e8lN Follow FMT Lifestyle on Instagram: https://bit.ly/39dBDbe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download FMT News App: Google Play – http://bit.ly/2YSuV46 App Store – https://apple.co/2HNH7gZ Huawei AppGallery - https://bit.ly/2D2OpNP  #FMTBusiness #FMT #StakeholdersWithShireen #SwS #CorstonSmith #ShireenMuhiudeen #AzimahAbdulRahim #PAGE #Exclusive

Transcript

00:00 (upbeat music)

00:02 - She is the chair of PAGE,

00:12 the Parent Action Group for Education,

00:14 and has been a strong voice for Malaysian parents

00:17 concerned about the standards of education in the country.

00:20 My stakeholder today is Azima Rahim.

00:24 (upbeat music)

00:27 (upbeat music)

00:30 Good morning Azima, welcome to the program,

00:45 and thank you for being here today.

00:47 - Thanks, Shireen, what an honor to have me here today,

00:49 thank you.

00:50 - So we are gonna talk about education,

00:52 and as you know, education is the backbone of society.

00:56 And recently we had COVID,

00:57 which has disrupted learning as we know it.

01:00 Just wondered if you could share with us your views

01:03 of how disruptive COVID has been on children.

01:06 - You know, I'd like to refer to this survey research,

01:13 which was done recently by LEAP-Ed.

01:17 LEAP-Ed manages the trust schools in Malaysia.

01:22 And it was a paper done by Monash University Malaysia,

01:27 by Professor Nias.

01:29 They came to the conclusion that one out of three students

01:34 didn't find anything new in their learning, you know,

01:41 post-COVID, and two out of three students

01:47 didn't find that there was any support

01:49 in the learning given.

01:51 We see that with COVID, post-COVID,

01:56 the learning loss, of course, obviously became a lot deeper.

02:01 And before schools opened,

02:06 the ministry said that they would assess students

02:09 to see how much of the learning was lost.

02:13 So over two months, they assessed students,

02:15 and I suppose they came to a conclusion

02:19 that so much needed to be done.

02:21 But I think the action that was taken post-assessment

02:26 was inadequate because they weren't able to cover that loss.

02:31 And that loss continues to this day.

02:36 I read that every three months,

02:40 for every three months, that children were not in school,

02:44 if they're below the age of nine and 10 years old,

02:48 is equivalent to one year of not learning.

02:52 And I don't know, and I suppose more and more discussions

02:55 will be taking place and more research

02:57 as to the actual impact on the children.

03:01 If we look at the situation here

03:05 where we had some children with no connectivity,

03:09 they had no devices, and some children had devices,

03:14 some children had connectivity.

03:18 How could we bridge the gap going forward

03:20 to make sure that everybody is given an opportunity

03:25 should something like this happen again?

03:27 You know, during COVID, there were students who had devices

03:31 and there were some who didn't.

03:33 And those who had devices at least maybe maintained

03:38 what they were already learning in schools.

03:40 But of course, I think a large majority of them did not.

03:44 This is one of the things we've been saying

03:46 to the ministry, you know,

03:47 the children are already comfortable with devices.

03:50 You should continue that routine or practise

03:55 when they come back into schools.

03:57 I don't see that happening.

03:59 They should have taken advantage.

04:01 You know, they should have capitalised

04:02 on that way of learning by using devices,

04:07 hardware, and there's so much software available,

04:15 especially for science in English.

04:19 So you don't even need to reinvent science

04:24 and even math in English,

04:26 because these children were already learning it

04:28 from software and whatever devices they had from home.

04:33 It was a matter of scaling up

04:34 when the students came back to school.

04:36 The ministry should have probably spent more on devices.

04:41 You can even share devices.

04:44 It doesn't need to be one-to-one.

04:46 The software is readily available.

04:47 It's a matter of picking out what you need for that lesson.

04:51 And, you know, it need not even be English software.

04:57 There's also a lot in Bahasa Malaysia.

05:03 So I think when we did, you know,

05:08 the teaching and learning of science and maths

05:09 in English in 2003,

05:10 when the government bought in,

05:13 spent three billion ringgit on hardware and software,

05:18 we had already seen the use of, you know,

05:22 tools for learning.

05:26 And I think we were so ahead of time

05:28 that countries were coming to see

05:30 how we were using, you know,

05:34 these learning tools online and offline

05:37 to supplement teaching methods.

05:41 Unfortunately, this was abolished.

05:45 The teaching of science, maths, English was abolished,

05:48 you know, six years later.

05:50 But at that time already,

05:55 the ministry was looking at teachers as facilitators

05:59 and hardware and software were there

06:02 to supplement teaching.

06:04 And that's carried on.

06:06 And if we had continued with that way of learning,

06:10 we wouldn't have been impacted as badly during COVID.

06:14 Because we were already, you know,

06:16 ahead of many, many countries.

06:19 So if we had not reversed,

06:24 we wouldn't have been so badly affected.

06:27 You know, I've seen some models

06:28 where they've actually just taken computers,

06:30 they've uploaded the e-learning programs,

06:33 and then they've sent it out to rural areas,

06:36 not so much Malaysia, but in other parts of the world.

06:38 And the children there just, as long as they have power,

06:42 they can actually learn from it.

06:43 And the results have been amazing.

06:46 And I don't know if maybe this is an answer

06:49 or something do you think that we could do

06:52 so that the children in the very, very rural areas

06:54 are able to continue their competencies

06:57 and skillset in education.

06:59 - Absolutely, because as you said,

07:02 we only need electricity.

07:04 You don't even need internet,

07:06 because a lot of the learning can be done offline.

07:09 It's a matter of loading it and then playing it.

07:12 And not only that, there's also a teacher shortage.

07:16 So this is how it's gonna come in

07:19 to help with the teacher shortage.

07:22 I've just been told that we have something like,

07:25 I think 10,000 teacher shortages.

07:27 And it's not just English teachers,

07:30 but also Bahasa Melayu teachers.

07:32 But all this can be learned.

07:33 We just need the teacher to come in,

07:35 facilitate the class, turn on the devices.

07:37 The children know what to do.

07:39 They'll be guided.

07:41 And then the class just starts and continues and ends.

07:45 And the more motivated the child is,

07:48 it's the child can actually control his type of learning.

07:53 And the child decides whether he wants to progress

07:56 or not on his own, independent learning.

07:59 And also the teachers is just there to facilitate and guide.

08:03 - So if we look at some of the countries around the world,

08:08 and some of the bold decisions leadership has taken.

08:11 So for example, I look at India.

08:13 India in the old days,

08:15 they decided that they were going to emphasize

08:18 math and science.

08:19 And you look at what that leadership decision

08:22 has done to India today.

08:24 India is unmatched.

08:25 And they're producing individuals that are world class.

08:29 Indonesia has taken a bold step.

08:31 They've got a technocrat entrepreneur

08:33 to lead the education department or the education strategy.

08:36 What do you think about taking bold steps for education?

08:42 Do you think the time is right now

08:44 and Malaysia needs to start looking at something like that?

08:47 - Yeah, I think we had the opportunity

08:51 to take bold steps a long time ago and we didn't.

08:54 And we're still debating over language

08:58 when we should be flying to the moon.

09:01 India and Malaysia has differences as well as similarities.

09:04 We both inherited an English education system.

09:09 The difference is that India is huge, you know,

09:13 and we're not.

09:14 They've got what, 1.2 billion population,

09:16 we are only 32 million.

09:18 But they decided that they would retain

09:21 that English medium education system.

09:24 We didn't, I think that was a mistake.

09:27 Post 1969, after the racial riots,

09:32 the education minister then, without going to the cabinet,

09:37 decided on national TV that all English medium schools

09:41 would be abolished.

09:42 This is knowledge that many people are not aware of.

09:46 Because the prime minister then

09:49 wanted to have a Malaysian identity.

09:52 That was the start of Malay medium schools

09:55 and also the start of vernacular schools.

09:58 Vernacular schools were enhanced.

10:00 English medium schools died.

10:02 And I think this was a great detriment to us

10:06 because even though they had wanted to boost

10:10 the Malay language, make it international language,

10:12 now 60-odd years down the road, we still haven't done that.

10:15 You know, the language of ASEAN is English.

10:18 Even Indonesia can't make it Bahasa Indonesia

10:21 and forget about Bahasa Melayu being the language

10:24 of ASEAN.

10:27 It's not too late because we started with BPSMI in 2003.

10:32 That got abolished.

10:36 We started again with a dual language program,

10:39 giving the option to parents to decide

10:42 whether their children are to be taught science and maths

10:44 in English or national language.

10:46 And that's been going on since 2016.

10:49 I was part of the syndicate team.

10:52 So now it's 2023.

10:55 The Ministry of Education says that they're expanding,

10:58 but I'm not too confident because the only states

11:03 which are really into the dual language program are Sarawak.

11:07 Sarawak has gone 100%.

11:09 They started with primary schools 100%

11:12 with 1,200 over schools, primary schools,

11:16 because they started primary schools.

11:18 So of the 1,000-odd schools which are doing

11:21 the dual language program, if you take away Sarawak,

11:25 there are only 348 schools, or just 7.5% of primary schools

11:30 that offer the dual language program.

11:33 And I think this is really pathetic.

11:36 How are we gonna move a nation if only a handful of schools,

11:40 348 primary schools out of 7,000,

11:45 are offering the dual language program?

11:48 And even so, there's probably just one class per level

11:53 offering science and maths English.

11:56 So I think we really have to work on the numbers.

12:00 The ministry really has to work on the numbers

12:02 because there are parents who are very happy

12:05 to get their children to learn

12:07 and to be taught science, maths, and English.

12:09 But the ministry appears to be putting

12:14 in so many more conditions

12:18 to make it so difficult for schools to apply

12:22 to become schools that offer the dual language program.

12:26 So because, again, I was in the syndicated thing,

12:30 we make it so very easy for schools to ask

12:35 to be DLP schools.

12:38 Only there were only three criteria.

12:40 One was parents' written consent.

12:43 Secondly, teachers must be ready.

12:46 And thirdly, resources must be adequate in school.

12:50 But along the way, the Australian nationalists came in

12:53 and said, "We must give significance to the Bahasa Melayu."

12:58 So now, for the schools to apply

13:00 to become dual language program schools,

13:03 they must meet the Bahasa Melayu criteria.

13:07 They must meet the national average.

13:09 So when you have this fourth criteria,

13:13 you already stop half the schools

13:16 from applying to become dual language programs

13:18 because they don't meet the national average

13:20 for Bahasa Melayu, which is really odd.

13:23 So the other question is, what is the ministry doing

13:28 to ensure that this 50% of schools

13:30 that don't meet the national average for Bahasa Melayu

13:33 meet the national average

13:37 so that they can apply to become DLP schools?

13:41 That is the question.

13:43 And not only that, these 50% of schools

13:45 which don't meet the DLP criteria

13:48 are already immersed in Bahasa Melayu

13:51 because they only have English language 10% of lessons.

13:56 And yet they cannot meet the national average

13:58 for Bahasa Melayu.

13:59 The irony of it.

14:02 I mean, when you look at some of our successes

14:06 as a country previously, many companies relocated here.

14:09 They had the BPO, the business outsourcing program

14:14 because we had the language.

14:17 So the languages, you had India, Philippines and Malaysia.

14:21 They came here to set up call centers

14:23 because we had the language.

14:25 So there's a step further that we can think about

14:29 when you can articulate

14:31 in one of the most used languages in the world.

14:34 Azima, you've been pushing math and science

14:38 in English for years.

14:39 What drives you to do this?

14:42 All right.

14:44 What drives me I think is because

14:48 I truly believe our children have great potential.

14:52 Yeah.

14:53 They just need to be guided.

14:55 I think we've been around since 2008.

14:59 Paige has been around since 2008.

15:01 At least for now, I don't hear people saying

15:06 that the English language is a colonial language anymore.

15:10 So I think we've moved on.

15:13 I also see that the rule of folk

15:16 are very open to the English language.

15:18 Now I think the only people who are against

15:22 the dual language program,

15:23 that is learning science, maths and English,

15:26 are those who just cannot open their minds

15:30 to the importance of the English language

15:32 until it's too late.

15:34 And they find that,

15:35 why are their children not getting the good jobs?

15:38 And I think the government today,

15:41 or rather the Ministry of Education today,

15:43 should be looking at STEM.

15:47 Focus on STEM, focus on English,

15:51 and focus on the good jobs

15:54 that our children will fill in the future.

15:59 I think this idea of becoming more Islamic

16:05 than PAS, and using the children in school through this,

16:10 I think they've got it all wrong.

16:12 They're on the wrong path.

16:14 If parents are convinced that the education system

16:18 is going to give the children better jobs,

16:20 I think we will progress.

16:23 And I think also, going back to India,

16:28 India's decided that STEM is important.

16:30 We need to change our mindset as well.

16:34 STEM is important.

16:35 I've also sat in the Science Education Committee

16:39 of Academy Science Malaysia for two years.

16:42 There were two things that we did.

16:44 One was to bring in inquiry-based science education

16:48 into the education system.

16:50 We piloted some schools, they were doing very well,

16:52 and now it's across the board.

16:54 So that's fantastic.

16:57 They've also been very supportive with us,

16:59 pushing science, maths and English.

17:02 And I think that MOSTE should work more closely with MOE.

17:07 MOSTE and MOE, some time back,

17:13 set up the National STEM Centre.

17:16 This was to cover everything STEM.

17:18 But it started off, they were undecided

17:21 whether to place it under MOSTE or MOE,

17:23 but MOE decided they would take it.

17:26 Unfortunately, the new minister came in and closed it,

17:31 which is a shame because there's so much thinking

17:34 and so much hard work gone into setting up

17:36 the National STEM Centre.

17:38 Even if they had thought that the National STEM Centre

17:42 had already fulfilled its purpose,

17:47 they could have made it, given it broader responsibilities

17:53 and truly make it national.

17:58 Unfortunately, the National STEM Centre was taken by MOE,

18:01 was put in the basement of the MOE,

18:03 and it was in the basement of the MOE,

18:06 and it was equipped with hardware and software

18:10 that nobody wanted.

18:11 - Right.

18:12 - Plus it didn't have a budget,

18:13 so it just died a natural death.

18:15 So I think things like this, we have to have a bit more,

18:20 we just have to open our minds to STEM.

18:25 And I think there's a difference between India and us.

18:28 We fail to do that.

18:29 But I think it's not too late.

18:30 I think we should focus on STEM

18:35 because we need to become creators, innovators.

18:41 - Correct.

18:43 - And not just consumers.

18:44 And this is the message that we've been saying all this time.

18:49 And everybody's using iPhones and smartphones.

18:54 Why can't we make our own smartphones and iPads?

18:57 Why can't we produce our own hardware and software?

19:00 I think we're already producing our own hardware and software.

19:02 We need to produce our own hardware and sell it.

19:05 - If you look internationally,

19:06 we have so many Malaysians who are just world-class.

19:11 And it's not as if we can't.

19:13 And I know that some countries, our neighboring countries,

19:17 actually come to Malaysia to look for smart children.

19:20 And then they offer them scholarships, and then off they go.

19:24 And then they get ingrained in their system.

19:26 And we just become an area to produce children,

19:29 to give to other people.

19:31 And this is a sad fact

19:32 because then we're losing our own talent at a very young age.

19:36 - Exactly, because despite what we say

19:40 about our poor education system,

19:42 we're actually producing world-class global citizens.

19:46 And countries like US, UK, Australia, Singapore,

19:50 step them up.

19:51 And we're losing fantastic talent.

19:57 We're actually subsidizing these developed countries,

20:02 the rest of the world.

20:04 - Yeah. - Terrible.

20:06 - Azima, thank you so much for being on the show.

20:09 As usual, you've been enlightening and so forward-thinking.

20:14 - Thanks a lot, Shirin.

20:16 We've still got a long way to go,

20:19 but I think we just have to be consistent and persistent

20:24 and provide the checks and balances as we have always been.

20:28 - You heard a passionate Azima Rahim of PAGE,

20:34 who wants the government to take bold steps in education,

20:37 especially in the teaching of science

20:39 and mathematics in English,

20:41 and the adoption of modern technology

20:44 and tools to enhance learning.

20:46 As Azima said, Malaysian children have enormous potential.

20:52 What the country needs are policies that empower

20:56 and enable our children to thrive on the global stage.

21:00 I am Shirin Mohideen.

21:02 See you next time on Stakeholders with Shirin.

21:06 (upbeat music)

21:08 (upbeat music)

21:11 (upbeat music)

21:14 you

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