Our 4 Kids Are BEGGING Us to DIVORCE! Call In
We've been fighting so badly that our four children are begging us to divorce!
We met in high school in 2000. I was 18, she was 16; I was a senior, she was a junior. We'd known each other for about a month then started dating and got married five years later and then had our first kid in 2008. We have four children.
I'm in the military, traveled all over the world. We've gone pretty much everywhere together. A couple deployments, spent some time overseas. We're now back stateside.
It's been a somewhat tumultuous relationship. I think there have been issues with trust over the years on my part. You know, we both feel as though we have changed to try to accommodate the other person, but over the last, say, since the start of the new year, fights have gotten just incredibly worse.
We went to counseling years ago and that helped somewhat. Your conversation helped somewhat. That was about two years ago.
We had kind of peeled the onion back and determined that there were some childhood trauma issues with her side of the family, with mother and father. We talked somewhat about my side of the family, but identifying some of those issues from the past helped somewhat. We saw a marriage reconciler online in around the August time frame and that seemed to help.
So we're both very Christian. I'm trying to be a pastor, and that's a five-year seminary train up, and I'm about a year and a half into it. I'm also preaching about once to twice a month at our church and filling in various roles there. My wife helps out with the Sunday school. The kids are all involved.
I would say, you know, from the outside, it's the ideal life. You know, we have everything that we can do. could possibly want to need and the tumultuousness between the two of us, it's sad. We saw this marriage reconciler back in August time frame, had a few meetings. He helped us to patch things up from a biblical perspective and to kind of forgive and agree to kind of move on. And that helped.
And then about a month ago, we got into a big argument. I said we had a friend of ours who was over. I had had a couple of drinks and I was saying things--and I'm giving the paraphrased version--but I said a couple of things that upset my wife. They were not kind.
Then we went inside, got into it a little bit more and I thought she was saying something to the effect that she was going to leave again, which I had told her I didn't like. The argument had been over a procedure to have her laser eye surgery done. So then I got mad at her and said, "Oh, well, you're just gonna do this and to ruin the ruin the family?" and of course that's a that's a terrible thing to say. Then it just got worse from there. It's been weeks and weeks of non-stop bitterness, sadness, anger, back and forth. Yelling. I do not want to bias my side to say like, I'm the saint here. So if you want to drill down and get some details on things, I can do that. But I'm just kind of giving the wave tops.
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We met in high school in 2000. I was 18, she was 16; I was a senior, she was a junior. We'd known each other for about a month then started dating and got married five years later and then had our first kid in 2008. We have four children.
I'm in the military, traveled all over the world. We've gone pretty much everywhere together. A couple deployments, spent some time overseas. We're now back stateside.
It's been a somewhat tumultuous relationship. I think there have been issues with trust over the years on my part. You know, we both feel as though we have changed to try to accommodate the other person, but over the last, say, since the start of the new year, fights have gotten just incredibly worse.
We went to counseling years ago and that helped somewhat. Your conversation helped somewhat. That was about two years ago.
We had kind of peeled the onion back and determined that there were some childhood trauma issues with her side of the family, with mother and father. We talked somewhat about my side of the family, but identifying some of those issues from the past helped somewhat. We saw a marriage reconciler online in around the August time frame and that seemed to help.
So we're both very Christian. I'm trying to be a pastor, and that's a five-year seminary train up, and I'm about a year and a half into it. I'm also preaching about once to twice a month at our church and filling in various roles there. My wife helps out with the Sunday school. The kids are all involved.
I would say, you know, from the outside, it's the ideal life. You know, we have everything that we can do. could possibly want to need and the tumultuousness between the two of us, it's sad. We saw this marriage reconciler back in August time frame, had a few meetings. He helped us to patch things up from a biblical perspective and to kind of forgive and agree to kind of move on. And that helped.
And then about a month ago, we got into a big argument. I said we had a friend of ours who was over. I had had a couple of drinks and I was saying things--and I'm giving the paraphrased version--but I said a couple of things that upset my wife. They were not kind.
Then we went inside, got into it a little bit more and I thought she was saying something to the effect that she was going to leave again, which I had told her I didn't like. The argument had been over a procedure to have her laser eye surgery done. So then I got mad at her and said, "Oh, well, you're just gonna do this and to ruin the ruin the family?" and of course that's a that's a terrible thing to say. Then it just got worse from there. It's been weeks and weeks of non-stop bitterness, sadness, anger, back and forth. Yelling. I do not want to bias my side to say like, I'm the saint here. So if you want to drill down and get some details on things, I can do that. But I'm just kind of giving the wave tops.
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00:00:00 Okay, um, I have no idea, uh where to begin
00:00:04 To be honest, um just um
00:00:08 uh a heads up I
00:00:11 Told my wife about this
00:00:14 Um, I know you and I have been kind of talking i'd sent the email a couple hours ago
00:00:18 I had I just told her about this
00:00:21 uh when you had offered to
00:00:25 Um take my phone call 15 minutes ago. So she felt very blindsided, of course, and that's understandable
00:00:31 but
00:00:33 She would have liked to join in
00:00:36 Um, but I was thinking perhaps it could be a separate conversation
00:00:40 Okay, so just for background, of course you said on the live stream today that
00:00:48 You and your wife were fighting so badly that your four children were begging you to divorce
00:00:54 Yeah
00:00:56 Yeah, pretty much
00:00:57 okay, so
00:00:59 I guess give me a history of the relationship
00:01:02 And how long you've been married when you met and all that kind of good stuff
00:01:05 Sure. Sure. Okay. So, uh, we met in high school in 2000
00:01:09 I was 18. She was 16. I was a senior. She was a junior
00:01:13 uh, we'd known each other for about a month then started dating and
00:01:18 I got married five years later and then had our first kid in 2008
00:01:23 um, and then our kids are
00:01:26 Ages 14 through or sorry 4 through 15. We got four of them. Um
00:01:32 Uh, i'm in the military traveled all over the world she's been with me we've gone pretty much everywhere together a couple deployments
00:01:40 Spent some time overseas
00:01:43 Uh, we're now back stateside. Um close to family
00:01:46 uh
00:01:48 Let's see
00:01:50 it's been a uh, um
00:01:52 Somewhat tumultuous relationship, um, we've
00:01:58 I think there have been issues with uh with trust over the years on my part
00:02:04 um
00:02:07 You know, we both feel as though we have changed to try to accommodate the the other person
00:02:12 but uh over the last
00:02:17 Say since the start of the new year, uh fights have gotten just incredibly worse
00:02:22 and
00:02:24 Um, we saw a marriage
00:02:26 We went to counseling years ago and that helped somewhat
00:02:29 Um your conversation helped somewhat. Uh, that was about two years ago
00:02:34 um, we had kind of peeled the onion back and determined that there were some, uh, childhood trauma issues with uh,
00:02:40 uh her side of the family with mother and father
00:02:43 um, and I don't
00:02:45 recall that we talked we we talked somewhat about my side of the family, but um
00:02:50 Um
00:02:54 Identifying some of those issues from the past, uh, I think helped somewhat but um,
00:03:00 uh
00:03:03 We saw a marriage reconciler
00:03:05 Online in around the august time frame and that seemed to help, uh, so we're both very
00:03:15 Christian i'm trying to be a pastor and that's a five-year
00:03:20 Seminary train up and i'm about a year and a half into it. Um, i'm also doing
00:03:28 I'm preaching about once a month twice a month at our church and filling in various roles there
00:03:35 Uh, my wife helps out with the sunday school. The kids are all involved
00:03:39 Um, I I would say, you know from the outside. It's the ideal life
00:03:43 Uh, you know, we have everything that we could possibly want and need
00:03:46 and um the
00:03:48 Summultuousness between the two of us it's
00:03:55 It's sad. Um, but anyway, we we saw this marriage reconciler back in
00:04:01 August time frame had a few meetings
00:04:05 Um, he helped us to uh patch things up, uh from a biblical perspective and to kind of forgive
00:04:13 to a certain
00:04:14 Uh to forgive and agree to kind of move on and that helped
00:04:19 And then about a month ago, uh, we got into a big argument. Um, I said
00:04:24 We had a friend of ours who was over
00:04:27 I had had
00:04:29 a couple of drinks
00:04:31 and
00:04:32 I was saying things and i'm giving the the paraphrased version, but
00:04:36 Uh, I said a couple of things that uh upset my wife. They were not kind
00:04:41 And then I thought but then we went inside
00:04:43 Got into it a little bit more and I thought she was saying something to the effect that she was going to leave again
00:04:48 Which I had told her I didn't like
00:04:50 um, and so then I got mad at her and said, okay, well
00:04:53 um, well, are you just gonna
00:04:56 The argument had been over a procedure to have her laser eye surgery done
00:05:00 And I said, oh, well, you're just gonna do this and to ruin the ruin the family
00:05:04 And of course that's a that's a terrible thing to say
00:05:07 and uh
00:05:10 Then it just got worse from there. And then it was it's just been uh weeks and weeks of non-stop
00:05:15 Bitterness sadness anger back and forth. Um yelling
00:05:24 um
00:05:27 I do not want to bias my side to say like i'm i'm the saint here. So i'm going to i'm
00:05:34 You know, if you want to drill down and get some details on things I can do that
00:05:38 But i'm just kind of giving the the wave tops
00:05:40 Why would laser surgery?
00:05:43 ruin their family
00:05:45 Um
00:05:48 It it wouldn't um, I
00:05:54 The the way she had said something
00:05:58 The reconciler I told her like hey, look I never want to hear the words
00:06:01 I'm going to get a divorce because I considered that like the nuclear option threat manipulation if you actually don't get it
00:06:07 I don't like so she's she's been the one who's only ever mentioned I want a divorce
00:06:11 And then it has not ended in divorce and that's happened
00:06:13 I don't know how many times the videos but I told her I didn't want to hear that anymore
00:06:17 we got into the argument last month and
00:06:19 It had been over
00:06:25 Um, we had some debt and I wanted to
00:06:30 I was going to go on like a short deployment
00:06:34 And I would make some money from that and I wanted to put that money towards
00:06:37 Uh the debt or perhaps getting a new car and she said she wanted to
00:06:41 Have her eye surgery done
00:06:44 Uh, because he's been wearing glasses the last 20 years and she'd like that's something that she's put off for a long time
00:06:49 And as a single income like I I can understand that perspective
00:06:53 But we desperately need a new car and we have all this debt. So I was trying to kind of balance that anyway the the
00:06:59 uh argument was um
00:07:03 Uh had that was a very sensitive issue for her. Um
00:07:07 Because she's beholden to me
00:07:10 Uh to to earn the money and to to to ask to be able to use it
00:07:15 uh, and so if I say well, no, we need the money for this and that means it's just kind of like a delay for
00:07:20 For her or she doesn't feel as though she has a say in it. So I said, um
00:07:25 Um, I had gotten upset because she had
00:07:34 Responded to me and what I thought was
00:07:37 okay, well i'm just going to leave you then because we
00:07:40 I'd like I wasn't apologizing
00:07:43 Uh for what I had said about in front of the friend
00:07:46 And so I thought she was kind of threatening divorce and I was like, oh, okay
00:07:50 Well, you know like we're just blowing this whole thing up over your eyes like the eye surgery
00:07:54 Like uh, because you're not getting your eye surgery. So you're just gonna leave me then
00:07:59 um, which was just a you know, uh, that was an emotional response that was
00:08:04 uncalled for and unkind and
00:08:08 uh, very piercing
00:08:11 um
00:08:14 If that whole thing that I just mentioned
00:08:17 Go on
00:08:22 Um, so since then, um
00:08:27 Uh, we've had some
00:08:30 Instances where we've uh kind of made up
00:08:35 um where i've
00:08:38 I have tried to
00:08:39 apologize
00:08:41 Uh, but she says that I will follow up the apology
00:08:43 With a butt so I will say okay. Well, hey, look i'm really sorry
00:08:48 You know, I didn't mean to do this there, but you know, please forgive me dadada and then
00:08:53 And then
00:08:54 Later on or shortly thereafter i'd say well now I want to talk about what you did and the things that you said to me
00:09:00 which were also not kind and
00:09:02 um
00:09:05 She
00:09:07 Gets upset at that
00:09:09 Uh because she then she feels as though i'm trying to shift the blame to her
00:09:12 And uh
00:09:16 So then there have been instances after that where I have tried to do the reconcile thing
00:09:22 um
00:09:23 there are so many
00:09:25 So much stuff just kind of blurs together because there's just been so many
00:09:29 instances that have been
00:09:31 uh out of control, so it's it's
00:09:33 um
00:09:34 the short and the long of it is is that uh, I have tried and I know I have failed in my
00:09:40 Okay, i'm i'm sorry, but and I know those are kind of like, uh bean apps
00:09:44 uh
00:09:47 Uh, but I feel as though i'm being made to shoulder everything that happened
00:09:52 So even her responses to me
00:09:55 um
00:09:58 uh
00:10:00 Those those aren't her faults those are just her reacting to me
00:10:05 um
00:10:07 So, uh, that's that's like an issue that I have like I look at israel and palestine like okay
00:10:14 Palestine attack first and then israel goes in there
00:10:17 And then attacks and then it's well
00:10:19 Well, okay, you could say, you know palestine started but now they're both tearing at each other up and i'm not saying, you know
00:10:25 Yeah, I I definitely feel for for israel
00:10:29 Uh, but at some point it's like okay, how do we stop this?
00:10:32 um, and so um
00:10:35 I have not
00:10:38 Done a fantastic job at that
00:10:40 There have been too many instances that we got out of control and then finally when we kind of bring it down and we're like
00:10:45 Okay. Hey, look, maybe we should try to
00:10:47 Save it like hey, look, maybe we can we can work things out
00:10:51 The kids are like, please god. No, please don't do this to us. Please just split up. Please leave
00:10:57 um dad just go
00:11:00 um
00:11:01 and uh, like it's just the the happiness the
00:11:04 emotion in the house has really been
00:11:08 uh, like sucked out and it's it's
00:11:10 It's very very sad to see
00:11:12 Well, what are the kids what are the kids seeing oh my gosh, um
00:11:20 They have seen me, uh get upset now, I don't necessarily know that i've i've been screaming but uh when my wife would
00:11:31 I don't like to argue in front of the kids
00:11:36 And so when my wife would come in and we would get into it or something like that
00:11:41 I would very coldly I would turn my back or I would say get up or or stop doing what you're doing because she would
00:11:46 She would get very like she's broken
00:11:49 To put it bluntly and i'm not saying that in in a mean way, but like she this entire episode has just uh broken her
00:11:56 spiritually, uh, and in every kind of uh facet you can think of you mean like the last couple of months
00:12:04 Uh, I know since this thing has really like, uh started but I I believe she would probably say
00:12:10 For for for years. This has been going on. She's she's kind of felt felt broken and I haven't
00:12:17 I've been able to help repair that or help reassure her one issue that uh, she has with me. No, no, no
00:12:24 What are the children seeing that's that's the question i'm asking. Okay. What are okay? Uh, uh
00:12:32 What are they seeing? Uh, they've seen me get upset. They've seen me act wholly towards her, uh, or towards them
00:12:38 Um, they have seen her
00:12:40 uh
00:12:42 cry and be on her knees and
00:12:45 there's been lots of screaming and
00:12:48 um, each one of the kids will successively start to freak out and then watch the other one freak out and then it just
00:12:55 cascades from there and
00:12:57 um
00:13:01 It's uh, there's been no hitting but uh one thing that uh was an issue
00:13:06 what that they have seen is I
00:13:11 Apologized they have seen me like when a
00:13:16 A woman in spandex or whatever walks by
00:13:20 uh, they have seen me turn and look at them or look at like the woman walking by like ogling them and
00:13:27 They mentioned that to my wife in front of one of our friends and one of our friends was like, oh, that's a mortal sin
00:13:32 That's terrible
00:13:32 And it was you know
00:13:33 Kind of like a jaw-dropping moment because my wife had talked to me about that a while ago and I told her no
00:13:36 No, I wasn't doing that. But then the kids said that I was
00:13:39 and
00:13:41 um
00:13:43 The kid said well if he's looking at women like that, how is he looking at us? It's kind of like
00:13:48 An accusation of wait, i'm sorry. I don't understand the kids were saying if you're ogling a woman in spandex
00:13:54 What is that?
00:13:56 What does that mean to the kids? I don't follow
00:13:58 right
00:13:59 My daughters were thinking. Um
00:14:01 Is he looking at us like that oh my gosh, really yeah, so that was
00:14:09 That was heartbreaking for me as a dad especially
00:14:14 I know it's not right. I I know it's not right. Um, I have given up. It's not right
00:14:23 No, no, it's it's not right of me to to stare at a woman
00:14:26 Oh god, listen brother
00:14:28 I I could care less about that as far as all the things that you're talking about
00:14:31 You're looking at a woman's butt is like completely irrelevant to the ethics of the situation. So let's not even bother with that
00:14:37 Um, I I
00:14:42 I still feel bad for how my children
00:14:46 have been made to feel and
00:14:49 And view me
00:14:52 um in that
00:14:53 Have been made to feel that's passive voice, right?
00:14:55 Like you and your wife have terrorized your children to the point where they're begging you to divorce, right?
00:15:00 Right, right
00:15:02 right now
00:15:04 What is the I mean I have some knowledge of it, but i'm certainly not an expert. What are the christian commandments regarding?
00:15:11 Frightening your children to that degree to that degree
00:15:16 um
00:15:19 You
00:15:21 Uh anything that you do unto these little ones you do unto me
00:15:26 and jesus said that so
00:15:29 um, if we're terrorizing them, then we are
00:15:31 Terrorizing jesus we are not treating them as we would want to be treated
00:15:36 I mean if you're I mean if you're sorry i'm getting an echo. I'm getting an echo. Oh, sorry. Sorry
00:15:42 Uh, I was my I asked my wife to type me
00:15:45 What she wanted me to to say and i've got i've got that in here just from from her perspective
00:15:51 But she can't join us, right? She can't join us, right?
00:15:53 Unfortunately, no, she can't she has to take my daughter to the bible study
00:15:57 Okay, there we go. Sorry. No, no problem
00:15:59 so
00:16:02 It seems odd to me that the christian stuff is really focused on you looking at a woman in spandex
00:16:09 but not
00:16:11 You and your wife not screaming at each other in front of the children. I mean
00:16:15 Is there a faith element that i'm not understanding there?
00:16:18 I mean shouldn't that be what you would focus on first rather than other things?
00:16:21 right, so, uh
00:16:24 tying into that, um two things that we have said is
00:16:27 That I have said is hey you have not respected me like so me as the head of the household the spiritual head of the household
00:16:33 um, you
00:16:34 Have not respected me in front of the children
00:16:36 uh, and she
00:16:38 If for my part, so I have so your your christian thing
00:16:43 Is to focus on the other person's problems
00:16:45 Is that is that also the christian way to to focus on the problems that the other person has rather than reforming yourself?
00:16:51 I seem to remember a quote about the dust of the moat of the eye
00:16:55 Um
00:16:58 so with
00:17:00 with uh for my part, I have not loved her
00:17:03 As entirely as I could have so
00:17:06 That is like hey, you know, I should be doing this thing for you whether you honor me or not
00:17:12 She should be honoring me whether I love her or not. I guess that
00:17:16 Like that is my like she should be honoring you whether or not you're behaving in an honorable fashion
00:17:23 Yes
00:17:28 So that's kind of license for you to do whatever you want and then blame you for honoring you, right?
00:17:33 Right, right exactly that and that is not but that's not treating other people the way we want to be treated
00:17:38 um, and and so
00:17:41 uh, I I
00:17:42 have to do the right thing which which is
00:17:45 Since she is going to treat me with love. I should i'm sorry since she is going to treat me with honor
00:17:51 I should treat her with love as well. So it's kind of like, uh, yeah. No, you don't have to but you should because
00:17:57 That's what you're I mean. I mean, I I appreciate the theology but
00:18:02 But this is the mother of your children. I mean, why wouldn't you want to treat her as well as humanly possible?
00:18:07 Right, uh, I I have no excuse
00:18:11 I have no excuse i'm not looking for a blame or excuses. I'm just genuinely curious
00:18:15 Why you dislike her so much to the point where you're screaming at her and frightening your children
00:18:23 um
00:18:26 And I don't mean this in a judging way. I'm genuinely genuinely curious like what is so
00:18:30 Off-putting and you know, there may be good things and and i'll understand them, but I just don't yet
00:18:35 uh, so
00:18:38 Feel free to to stop me or dissect, uh as you see. Um,
00:18:42 I
00:18:45 I don't
00:18:47 I won't scream but I will get very cold. I will raise my voice, but i'll try to bring it back down again
00:18:52 Those those are not fantastic things, but I know but withdrawal withdrawal is
00:18:56 Very scary for women, right? I mean you're just using the biggest weapon there is in the male arsenal
00:19:01 Which is withdrawal and rejection, right?
00:19:03 Right, right, right, right
00:19:06 um, so one thing that I I
00:19:08 I get very upset that that bothers me tremendously
00:19:11 is um
00:19:14 I feel as though i'm being shouldered i'm being forced to shoulder the blame for every argument
00:19:19 Every so so no matter how she reacts. It's okay because I was I drew first blood
00:19:25 and
00:19:27 That's pretty much been
00:19:28 The thing since the beginning of our relationship which which I I have felt that
00:19:32 Like yeah, I know i'll admit like I I step
00:19:37 in it a lot
00:19:39 but uh, there almost seems to be
00:19:41 no
00:19:44 You know
00:19:45 Responsibility she has apologized for things that she did in the past like for the reconciliation. She uh, she did say hey look i'm sorry
00:19:52 so on and so forth, but uh, and I can forgive those things but
00:19:57 we're
00:19:59 Here and the hey, look I said those things and those were terrible, too
00:20:04 You have also said and done things that are are not okay
00:20:07 and
00:20:09 you know, I like apologize for my part for those things and and it's
00:20:13 no, uh, I
00:20:15 am, okay with
00:20:17 I was okay in doing those things because again, we go back to the you drew first blood. So you got okay. Sorry
00:20:23 I'm, uh, i'm still a little confused. I I apologize for for coming late to the party
00:20:28 Okay, so you've been together for how long?
00:20:32 Uh, 23 years 23 years. Okay
00:20:34 Now did she used to take a lot of responsibility but has stopped doing that for some reason?
00:20:39 No, that's pretty much
00:20:42 been
00:20:43 If you if you start to talk about where to place blame it gets very heated very quickly
00:20:49 Okay, I got it. So
00:20:51 She doesn't step up to take responsibility when there are problems
00:20:55 Is that fair yes, okay
00:21:01 And you've known that for almost a quarter of a century
00:21:04 right
00:21:06 So what are you doing? Like what what are you trying to change her for?
00:21:09 You've known that about her you chose to date her you chose to get engaged. You chose to get married
00:21:14 You chose to have four children together as recently as four years ago. She had another child
00:21:19 so i'm a little confused as to
00:21:22 Why I mean you're like it's like you're in the army for 23 years and you're like I can't believe I have to handle guns
00:21:31 Right, right like what am I what am I missing in terms of like
00:21:35 This is who she is and this is who you chose
00:21:39 But how do you choose someone and then demand that they fundamentally change? I'm a little confused
00:21:44 right, no, uh you
00:21:47 Uh, you can't or well, I guess well you can
00:21:51 You could try you can't but right right, but you right it's it's the bed that um, you've chosen to sleep
00:21:58 Well, let's let's say that she chose she said you know what i've been reading some unorthodox christian texts
00:22:04 And I think we should have an open marriage
00:22:06 Right. What would you say?
00:22:08 Uh, well, that'd probably be a big no-go
00:22:10 Right because you'd be saying like like no
00:22:13 We're monogamous that's been the basis of our relationship. Like you can't change it later, right?
00:22:18 Right, right. Okay. So that's this is who she is
00:22:22 Now maybe just maybe if you take a hundred percent responsibility
00:22:26 It'll cool things down. Maybe she'll see the value on that. Maybe this will change over time
00:22:31 But you're trying to like punch her into a different shape
00:22:35 Right, I mean she is who she is
00:22:40 Right, and she's good enough to have kids with why is she not good enough to accept who she is?
00:22:45 She
00:22:50 she is
00:22:52 I mean you complain that she doesn't take responsibility. Are you taking responsibility?
00:22:56 For who you married and chose to have children with
00:22:59 Right, right. I mean that's your choice. Nobody put a gun to your head
00:23:03 No, no, right. You chose to have her you chose to marry her you chose to have four children with her
00:23:09 And that's your responsibility right now you understand how cruel it is
00:23:15 To say to somebody I love you now change
00:23:24 Right
00:23:26 Well, uh
00:23:28 We're doing that to each other
00:23:30 No, but i'm not talking to her talking to you, right?
00:23:33 So you you want to blur it into her you want me you want me to keep focusing on her?
00:23:37 I'm not well. Yes. Yes, I can I I can see that but um
00:23:42 uh
00:23:44 Yeah, I I
00:23:46 Right, and that's that's what I do
00:23:48 So what okay, so tell me tell me so she doesn't take responsibility
00:23:52 There's there's something she does it's upsetting or whatever and she she blames you. She doesn't take responsibility, right?
00:23:58 Okay
00:24:01 So what's so bad about that help me understand why this is worth fighting and wrecking the marriage and frightening your children over?
00:24:06 Because it escalates very quickly. Nope
00:24:10 No, it doesn't escalate. There's no it here. Okay, right
00:24:15 There's no it here, right if someone shoots at you and you shoot back you're both shooting, right?
00:24:20 Right, right, right
00:24:22 I mean, I don't know about this turn the other cheek thing. You you may have heard that
00:24:26 Right, right
00:24:28 So it doesn't escalate you escalate
00:24:31 Right, why?
00:24:33 She'll
00:24:35 She'll say something
00:24:38 Or i'll say it's it's both of us
00:24:42 No, you're going back to both of us you see you you keep wanting to blend into her
00:24:47 Okay, she said give me something that she says that would set you off
00:24:50 Trying to think of
00:25:02 Um, i'll be accused of something
00:25:11 um
00:25:13 Well, like what like staring at a woman's butt
00:25:15 um
00:25:18 Well, there's there's there's definitely that but uh other even like minor things, um, so for uh,
00:25:25 I had a
00:25:29 Friend of mine. His wife was on my facebook page
00:25:33 And my wife said oh, she's very attractive. She's got a flat stomach da da da
00:25:38 Uh, and then she was worried that you know, we live in one side of the country. They live in the other she said
00:25:44 Well, what's to stop you from you know going out there on a short, you know training thing meeting up with her and cheating on her
00:25:52 With me, I like that's that's not even in the realm of possibility
00:25:56 um, okay, so sorry
00:25:59 I mean, she's she's had four kids that could do quite a number to a woman's figure. Uh, is she overweight?
00:26:04 Is she unhealthy? I think she's great. She looks she's right at where I I think
00:26:10 She really has not gotten like she's relatively the same size that she's been since high school
00:26:16 Okay. All right. So she is saying that you might cheat on her with this woman across the country
00:26:24 Right, right. Okay, and that okay, so hang on hang on so
00:26:30 You take that as an insult like of course, I wouldn't I love you. I'm loyal like how dare you question my is it something?
00:26:36 Like that, right if it right if I defend like no, no, it's not like that. It won't ever be like that
00:26:41 It's like why are you defending her? Why are you you know, and it just starts to go into kind of like
00:26:46 Total like it just goes. Okay. So this is a bit of a male female thing
00:26:51 All right, so she you think she's expressing a judgment
00:26:54 When what she in fact is doing is expressing a feeling
00:26:59 Mm-hmm, but you interpret that as a judgment
00:27:02 But she's just expressing a feeling do you know what feeling she's expressing
00:27:06 Insecurity. Yeah, she's insecure. She's feeling insecure. She's feeling unattractive
00:27:13 she's envious of
00:27:16 This other woman to some degree
00:27:18 So she's feeling insecure
00:27:20 And she's expressing it in this way
00:27:23 But you jump right over the feeling and you think this is some kind of judgment of you
00:27:27 And then you defend yourself as if you're attacked. Is that right?
00:27:30 right
00:27:32 right
00:27:34 So, why wouldn't you just ask her? Oh tell me more or tell me what you're feeling or right?
00:27:38 um
00:27:41 I I want to say i've tried that. Um, but it uh, those kinds of things devolve into
00:27:49 Um, you're just defending this one. So why would you pick her over me? I'm like she literally doesn't mean anything which no
00:27:57 No, no, no, no, no because she's expressing a feeling and you're interpreting it as a judgment
00:28:01 Right, right. So she says well, why would you pick her over me?
00:28:05 It's like wow, you really do sound like it sounds like you're feeling pretty down about yourself or or um
00:28:10 Is there something going on that I need to know about like you're taking it like she's in court
00:28:15 with you and she's a lawyer and and she's gonna throw you in jail like you're reacting as if she's
00:28:20 Judging you in some dangerous manner
00:28:24 Right, right. Okay. So let's go back to good old mom, right? This is usually the template, right?
00:28:29 Let's go back to your good old mom when you were a kid
00:28:31 How did your mother handle her own upset?
00:28:34 Uh attack
00:28:39 Okay, so when your mom would get upset
00:28:42 What would she do would she storm around the place looking for a problem would she
00:28:46 Find something would she yell at the kids would she like how would she react if your mom was upset? Yeah
00:28:51 pretty much like that she would
00:28:54 Like
00:28:56 She would get upset and then we would all feel the wrath, but she would also
00:29:00 Uh kind of and and I do this with my kids. Um
00:29:04 to to some degree
00:29:07 uh, she would
00:29:11 Confide in us the problems that were going on. Um, I don't know
00:29:15 Yes, okay. Yes
00:29:18 uh, so but she would like, you know huff and puff say i'm gonna get a divorce lawyer and uh,
00:29:21 and she would leave the phone book open with the you know,
00:29:24 the phone numbers and names of the divorce lawyers around and then she'd be huffy and puffy for
00:29:28 a few days and not talk to my dad and
00:29:30 um
00:29:32 And so sorry she would she would threaten divorce
00:29:35 In front of the kids or she would tell you about her desire to get a divorce and so on what she was fighting with your dad
00:29:42 All of the above
00:29:44 Okay
00:29:45 All right
00:29:46 That's terrible parenting obviously, right?
00:29:48 And how did you feel?
00:29:50 When she would do that?
00:29:52 Well horribly well
00:29:55 When I was younger I was like, oh my gosh, this is terrible when I got old i'm like, oh here we go again
00:30:02 Well, okay so but what about the attacks on you your siblings and so on
00:30:06 Um
00:30:10 Well, like your mom's in a really foul mood what happens
00:30:14 I yeah, I don't know that she would directly take it out on us. She'd just be in a really sour mood
00:30:21 She would smoke a lot
00:30:23 um
00:30:24 but I can't think of specifically where you know, she'd just be really like
00:30:28 Just really bitchy
00:30:31 But just but I don't know specifically she'd be like, well, you never clean your room, you know, and nothing like
00:30:36 Nothing like that. Oh, she wouldn't do that kind of stuff
00:30:39 no
00:30:41 I mean she would
00:30:43 You knew to kind of avoid her so I guess maybe I just didn't poke the bear or anything
00:30:48 I was always kind of like, you know, the golden child
00:30:50 so I kind of stayed out of the way and
00:30:53 Um, I think probably my brother
00:30:57 Uh and sister caught more wrath than I did. So maybe that's why i'm not
00:31:01 recalling anything
00:31:04 Specifically, but it was just a very sour time
00:31:07 And how often would your mom be moody this way?
00:31:10 I I can't remember but it was pretty often maybe monthly
00:31:18 Something like that, sorry, just kidding
00:31:23 A little bit of a cliche. Yeah every month. Yeah, the female pastor gives the fire and brimstone sermon. All right, go on
00:31:29 Yeah, every yeah, it's uh
00:31:32 Yeah, maybe monthly every few months something like that, you know, this stuff kind of blurs together as a kid
00:31:37 That's but that if it's every couple of months your mom's in a bad mood
00:31:40 I mean, that's true of most people, isn't it?
00:31:43 Right, right. It wasn't like some constant grinding
00:31:46 overshadowing
00:31:48 Thing like seven years of winter or something, right?
00:31:50 So if you're saying it was every couple of months, then we may have to look elsewhere
00:31:53 right, right
00:31:56 It was it was pretty regular I would say there were there were some pretty horrendous fights but to thinking back, you know
00:32:03 30 years is uh to whether it was weekly or monthly my brother is he's
00:32:09 He might have experienced it more than I but yeah, it was
00:32:14 Yeah, did your mother did your mother know?
00:32:18 that she had
00:32:20 feelings
00:32:22 Or did she assume that her irritation was always due to external factors like you kids just don't keep this place clean
00:32:29 Like did she know she was upset and then would find problems or did she feel?
00:32:33 That her upset was caused by the problems
00:32:37 It was
00:32:40 It was almost 100 my father, um, and then she would get into it with my brother, um,
00:32:48 uh, but he had his he has his own
00:32:50 emotional issues, but uh
00:32:53 yeah, I don't know that you know, she was
00:32:56 It was really like all it was was just my dad like her and my dad just did not get along. So
00:33:02 um
00:33:05 Okay, it's a very very good way of not answering the question. Okay. Did your mother ever say?
00:33:09 Oh, you know, I i'm just i'm in a really bad mood. I'm sorry kids
00:33:13 Let me just you know, take a little moment to get myself together. No, no, she would she would not say that no, okay
00:33:19 So she didn't know
00:33:21 She had feelings she only perceived
00:33:23 that she had
00:33:26 Valid judgments, does that make sense?
00:33:29 Like i'm upset because you kids it's not like she's in a bad mood and yells at the kids
00:33:33 She yells at the kids because the kids are bad. Like she just it's all judgment. It's not emotion. Does that make sense? Right?
00:33:40 Yeah
00:33:43 And how did your dad handle this these rampages?
00:33:46 um, he generally
00:33:49 No surprise here. I did what I do which was to uh, withdraw, um be somewhat
00:33:56 um cold
00:33:59 um reclusive
00:34:01 Retreat to his work. Uh the avoidance
00:34:04 Um those kinds of things. Okay, so you're just reenacting your parents marriage, right? Right, right, right
00:34:13 Why?
00:34:15 I mean we know about it when you were a kid I assume so why would you do it?
00:34:19 Right, right. Exactly. Uh, and and we know this and yet, um
00:34:23 Here we are
00:34:26 Okay, why it still doesn't answer the question why are you reenacting something that you really didn't like in your parents marriage
00:34:33 I have no excuse
00:34:42 All right, how much of your childhood did you spend dodging or managing your parents conflicts or your mom's moodiness?
00:34:48 I would guess most of it
00:34:58 You know when they would get in yeah, so you spent most of your childhood managing
00:35:05 resentfully managing other people's moods, right
00:35:09 But
00:35:11 Mm-hmm that that is uh
00:35:16 That is true. I would try to do that. You had you had no power or control over your environment
00:35:22 Right, you just had to manage other people's moods now other people's moods
00:35:28 They were inflicted on you
00:35:31 As if you caused them, right?
00:35:34 Right
00:35:37 And so your sense of control
00:35:39 Is not over yourself. It's not over
00:35:42 Knowledge, it's not over
00:35:45 Animals, it's not over the world. It's not over your emotions. Your sense of control is managing other people
00:35:51 Is that fair to say
00:35:54 Yeah, I think that was also one of the conclusions that we came to when we spoke last time was that people piser power power appeaser
00:36:02 um
00:36:04 Uh, and then that's being in the military
00:36:07 Being a power appeaser
00:36:11 Type person and what is your relationship with your parents at the moment?
00:36:16 Um
00:36:20 Pretty good. My dad and I are pretty close. My mom and I talk pretty frequently. Um
00:36:26 I've i've talked to them about the issues that i've had in in the past with them
00:36:32 Um, and like most of your call-in shows people like well, you know, we did the best we could
00:36:36 um
00:36:39 And following them for relationship advice though is not
00:36:43 Okay, so your parents have totally gotten away with some pretty bad dysfunctions, right?
00:36:49 Like they've they've gotten away with being pretty terrible in some ways
00:36:52 I'm sure they were good in some ways as well
00:36:54 but
00:36:54 You know threatening divorce and acting out your bad mood against your kids and and forcing your kids to have to manage your moodiness
00:37:00 For most of their childhoods, it's pretty terrible
00:37:03 And you don't hold them accountable at all really, right?
00:37:07 I mean you had a conversation or two, but they made their excuses and you just
00:37:10 Whistled and moved on, right?
00:37:13 Yeah, I think you can say that no, that's fine. I mean, that's fine. Okay, so you can forgive
00:37:19 your parents
00:37:22 For what they did when you were a child
00:37:24 And you never chose them, right? You're just born into that situation
00:37:28 So you can forgive your parents and not hold them accountable, but by god your wife
00:37:32 She's gonna be held accountable, right? She's got to take responsibility
00:37:36 Yeah, like you understand how messed up that is, right? Right, right like the woman you chose
00:37:42 You gotta hold her feet to the fire
00:37:45 right
00:37:47 but the people who
00:37:48 Harmed you as a child that you never chose. Oh, they totally get off scot-free
00:37:53 Yeah, yeah
00:37:55 so you understand
00:37:57 Your wife has no respect whatsoever
00:37:59 For your moral judgment and you can understand why, right?
00:38:03 Right, absolutely
00:38:06 Because I mean I hate to put it this bluntly, but I know it's an emergency situation. You're a flaming hypocrite
00:38:12 Right
00:38:14 Because you're like you better take responsibility for how you treat me and she's like, oh, yeah
00:38:18 Why don't you call your mom have another nice little pleasant chat with her?
00:38:21 Because you're so big on holding people accountable for how they treat you, right?
00:38:25 Mm-hmm
00:38:27 So you're taking out your anger at your mom on your wife, right
00:38:32 Just as she took her anger out on you
00:38:37 If you want to be mr. Forgiveness, that's fine start with your wife
00:38:45 If you're not gonna be if you're gonna be mr. Hold people accountable start with your mom
00:38:49 right
00:38:52 So why haven't you held your parents accountable?
00:38:55 I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't but why is your wife taking the brunt for all of this stuff when you're mad at your
00:39:02 parents
00:39:04 I guess because I felt as though I had come to peace with it
00:39:08 Okay, so that's great so forgiving people forgiving people and you come to peace with them, right
00:39:14 So why haven't you forgiven your wife if forgiving people just brings you peace and even if the people have harmed you for years
00:39:21 You could just forgive them and be at peace. So if being at peace is possible with your parents
00:39:25 Why isn't it possible with your wife who you chose?
00:39:28 Um, right, there's no reason why it it shouldn't be um
00:39:36 What's
00:39:39 The way I look at it as is i'll i'll step in it
00:39:46 no
00:39:50 I just feel like i'm making excuses
00:39:52 Well, you can't I mean you're an eloquent guy and I appreciate that and you're an intelligent guy and I appreciate that too
00:39:59 But there's no magic words that can unriddle this one, right?
00:40:02 No, why do you forgive your parents and attack your wife
00:40:09 Um
00:40:19 Because my wife is obligated to be with me and my parents aren't and i'm taking the relationship that I have with her for granted
00:40:26 Well, why is she obligated to be with you well it for the christian reasons
00:40:35 Um, and I have promised to be faithful and loving and I have no but hasn't she threatened to leave you
00:40:43 Yes, okay, so she's not obligated to be with you
00:40:48 Why is the person you chose being treated much worse?
00:40:52 Than the people you never chose why is the person who may have done you some wrong as an adult
00:40:57 Being attacked while the people who did you wrong when you were a child and had no choice are forgiven
00:41:03 Because I make excuses for them, I'm no I get it so you make excuses for them, right?
00:41:12 Right, and you know, they say well we did the best we could right?
00:41:17 Right. Okay. Why isn't that enough for your wife? Why doesn't your wife get to say?
00:41:20 Well, hey, I did the best I could and you're like, okay great
00:41:24 Right, yeah, yeah, you're right
00:41:28 But why
00:41:32 If you're in the middle of a fight with your wife and she says oh no i'm doing the best I can
00:41:36 Would you be like? Oh, you know what? That's right. You know, absolutely. I mean it works with my parents
00:41:40 It'll work with you. All is forgiven kiss kiss hug hug
00:41:46 Maybe it's pride
00:41:48 Well, I don't know that's just a word that doesn't explain much to me but i'm certainly happy to hear how it would play
00:41:53 I'm, not i'm not willing to accept responsibility for
00:41:57 My actions and not holding my parents accountable
00:42:00 Well, I just if you have a principle called people can do you harm and you can just forgive them and everything is fine
00:42:09 Then why again? Why doesn't that principle apply to your wife?
00:42:14 Well, it's not that i'm not willing
00:42:17 To forgive my wife I I am um
00:42:22 it
00:42:25 almost always
00:42:26 You're absolutely not because you've been yelling at her and you've been yelling back and forth for like a month or two at least right?
00:42:32 I know that there've been problems earlier as well
00:42:34 When was the last time you had a fight with your parents in the same way that you've had a fight with your wife?
00:42:40 When was the last time that happened?
00:42:43 Maybe a year ago. I mean but not not in this fashion. No, but no no this fashion
00:42:47 This this level of anger and self-righteousness and aggression and and and blame attack. When was the last time you had?
00:42:55 A fight with your parents
00:42:58 Yeah, never never
00:43:01 Okay
00:43:03 I mean I had it out with him over the phone for like an hour, but definitely not like for a month going on
00:43:07 No, but did you yell at them? Did you?
00:43:10 Yeah, I did. I I yelled at him told him how upset I was
00:43:13 Okay, and they said well we did the best we could and then everything's been fine since then, right?
00:43:18 Um it
00:43:21 well
00:43:24 Well you and they they did apologize for you know, the fighting and things that they they they did but yeah
00:43:31 Yeah, your wife has apologized too as you've mentioned before so
00:43:33 Right. So your wife has apologized your parents have apologized, but you treat your parents infinitely better
00:43:39 than you treat your wife, right?
00:43:41 Yeah, do you think your wife doesn't notice that
00:43:45 Uh, she probably does
00:43:50 Well, I mean at some level she's gonna be like well, hang on. I mean your parents treated you way worse than I ever have
00:43:56 Because you were a kid
00:43:59 And you didn't choose them your parents treated you way worse than I ever did and you just have one
00:44:04 You just have one flyby conversation with them on the phone. You get mad at them. They apologize and everything's been totally fine since
00:44:11 Even though they've never brought it up again or never really made any restitution or anything like that
00:44:15 Right, but I put one foot wrong your parents can bully you and draw you into their divorce dramas
00:44:21 And your mom can snap at you and snarl at you for years. So you spend most of your childhood
00:44:26 Managing your mom's ill temper and your parents
00:44:30 imminent divorce
00:44:33 but god forbid
00:44:35 I want some fucking eye surgery
00:44:37 Right, right
00:44:40 I mean she's out. I'm like i'm not trying to take her aside
00:44:44 Like i'm obviously i'm perfectly convinced that she's done terrible things or bad things or wrong things as well
00:44:49 But i'm just saying from her perspective
00:44:51 Right you have the capacity
00:44:54 To forgive forget and move on with everyone except who?
00:44:59 Her except her
00:45:04 You treat everyone infinitely better than you treat the mother of your children am I wrong?
00:45:10 So, um, uh, no, no, you're not wrong. I can I um, uh ask you a question here. Yeah
00:45:18 So usually when we get into these are and and I will caveat this right now with I am incredibly uncomfortable with
00:45:26 Uh shouldering all this blame and I know that there is the side of me that is trying to immediately off shift it
00:45:32 So i'm just going to say that from the emotional iq perspective
00:45:35 um, uh
00:45:37 But but you are absolutely correct. I am not denying those things
00:45:41 I just say like I know how i'm feeling right now
00:45:43 And I know that like there's the side of me that's like quick. We have to get to a spot that's less uncomfortable
00:45:48 um
00:45:50 Uh, so with with that being said and please shoot holes in whatever i'm about to say, uh, like you always do but uh
00:45:57 if um
00:46:00 I will step in it. I I will I will screw up. I will say something terrible mean and hurtful
00:46:04 Uh, no, no, no, no, no, hang on. Hang on. Hang on
00:46:07 When was the last time you just up and said something terrible mean and hurtful to your parents?
00:46:11 Uh
00:46:14 Never okay
00:46:16 So your wife is perfectly aware that you have the complete capacity to never ever ever
00:46:22 Say anything mean or hurtful. So we're already we've already blown it
00:46:27 Right. She sees you having chats with your
00:46:31 uh
00:46:31 friends with your parents with your boss or your commanding officer with with
00:46:36 Waiters with people on the phone who've screwed up an order with like she sees all of this right?
00:46:41 And you being perfectly civil and never ripping off anything mean or hurtful, right?
00:46:45 Right, right and then
00:46:48 You turn to her and what happens?
00:46:50 right
00:46:51 Kablamo, right? She gets so so
00:46:53 You treat the mother of your children if i'm right about this and I obviously correct me if i'm wrong
00:46:59 Maybe you've I don't know beaten up a waiter for getting your pasta order wrong
00:47:02 But you treat the mother of your children
00:47:05 The very worst of anyone because she's the only person who gets this level of abuse or aggression or whatever, right?
00:47:12 I don't want to do that. I don't want well, I don't care what you want to do or not
00:47:18 I'm an empiricist right what i'm doing, which is what you're doing. That's what i'm doing
00:47:21 So she sees that you are treating her. Look i'm not talking to her i'm talking to you, right?
00:47:25 So if I talk to her i'll have this sort of things to say to her
00:47:29 but your wife
00:47:32 Looks at you being nice to everyone in the world and shitting on her
00:47:36 Right, right
00:47:38 Yep, and you say you want to be honored
00:47:41 Right, right. Exactly. So why do you have that? But this is what I said in the live stream. Why do you have the permission?
00:47:49 To say shitty things to your wife and no one else
00:47:54 What's what's the difference
00:47:56 I don't know you do have that permission because you do it and you don't do it to anyone else, right?
00:48:03 If you had Tourette's syndrome, then you'd be screaming out mf at a policeman or a pilot or whoever a waiter, right?
00:48:11 so you
00:48:12 don't
00:48:14 Spill these verbal aggressions at anyone except your wife. So what's the difference? Why is it?
00:48:21 That you treat her the worst when it is in fact your most important relationship
00:48:26 Look your relationship with your wife is infinitely more important than your relationship with your parents
00:48:31 Is that fair to say because she's the mother of your children. She's the future. She's your companion
00:48:35 And who did you swear to love honor and obey in the marriage ceremony? Was it your parents?
00:48:39 No, it was her. No
00:48:43 You have become one flesh
00:48:45 Love honor and obey right?
00:48:46 So your vows your love your future your children all of them say you should be treating your wife the very best
00:48:52 Of everyone and yet you treat her the very worst and listen, you're not a dumb guy
00:48:57 You're a good guy a smart guy a nice guy and and you have the capacity to treat people. Well consistently
00:49:02 What is the rule that says I treat everyone well
00:49:10 Except my wife
00:49:14 There is none
00:49:15 No, there is a rule. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is
00:49:18 I have some ideas, but you absolutely have that rule in your head
00:49:21 Right, right, right
00:49:24 Yeah, um
00:49:28 When your parents gave you these bullshit non-apologies of what we did the best we could blah blah blah blah blah
00:49:33 Did you get cold and angry and hang up on them and turn away and all of the stuff you do with your wife?
00:49:39 Uh
00:49:43 No
00:49:45 I didn't get angry with it, but no no, I get that
00:49:47 But you you also don't rip off these verbal bombs at her uh, your parents or anything like that
00:49:52 Or do you do it with friends? Do you do it with co-workers? Do you do it?
00:49:54 Well, of course i'm probably the easiest going guy except for with my wife, right? Okay. So that's the question
00:50:01 Right the woman you chose
00:50:04 And made vows to to treat the best you're treating the worst right? This is why when you said we're really christian i'm like
00:50:10 I'm
00:50:13 Quite there yet in my humble opinion, right? Right. I want to get there. I want to okay
00:50:17 So your vows are to treat your wife the best
00:50:21 So we have to figure out
00:50:24 What rule do you have in your head that gives you permission
00:50:29 To do this
00:50:33 And also makes it I don't know the right thing to do or a good approach or something like that
00:50:37 I mean, I assume you guys have been yelling at each other off and on for over 20 years, right?
00:50:41 Yeah, okay
00:50:43 What is the rule that says this is a
00:50:47 Not just an okay thing to do but a good thing to do
00:50:50 And I can ask you if you don't know the answer I can ask it another way
00:50:56 Uh, yeah, if you could if you could ask it another way, I think I know but is it okay?
00:51:02 What happens what happens if you turn the other cheek?
00:51:06 Use our good lord. Jesus christ example and don't fight back. What happens if
00:51:11 You nod and smile and ask for clarification and don't fight back and don't yell and don't be cold and don't
00:51:18 Be angry and what happens if you're just curious and open and listen what happens?
00:51:23 To you to your marriage to your manhood to your relationship if you don't fight
00:51:29 If if I don't fight it
00:51:33 usual well
00:51:35 No, no, what what's your fear? Not well, because I mean you have been fighting for over 20 years
00:51:39 What's your fear of what happens if you don't fight?
00:51:41 We won't have that we won't feel needed or loved by not engaging in a conflict with the other person, okay, go on like is is
00:51:55 What you're asking me or telling me
00:51:59 Yeah, okay. Okay. So, uh, one of the other conclusions that we came to in the the last thing
00:52:05 uh in our call a couple years ago was
00:52:07 Um that we had this underlying
00:52:10 Like we felt loved and needed when we were creating conflict with each other
00:52:14 So she would well whatever happened a couple years ago hasn't worked
00:52:17 So I appreciate you referencing that but you know, we'll just chalk that up in the not winning column. So that's fine
00:52:22 What happens if you don't fight what happens to your relationship? What happens to your marriage?
00:52:28 It becomes tense
00:52:32 I'm, sorry
00:52:33 It'll become tense
00:52:35 Well, are you talking about already? No, what is your fear? Like if you don't fight?
00:52:39 With her if you don't if you treat your wife as well as you treat your average waiter
00:52:44 or your mother
00:52:47 Right if you treat your wife well, and you don't fight with her even if she's kind of punchy even if she's
00:52:51 Flailing at you or something like that because your mom did all of that right and you didn't fight with her
00:52:57 Right. So, you know how to not fight with an aggressive woman, right?
00:53:01 I mean, that's how you were raised not fighting with an aggressive woman. Is that right?
00:53:04 Right. Okay. So what happens if you don't
00:53:09 Fight if you treat your wife at least as well as you treat your mother what happens what's your fear?
00:53:17 But i'm probably giving up my masculinity or pride
00:53:26 I'm not i'm a bit concerned that pride is a generic answer that you have like just pick
00:53:31 Yeah, what are the rotating seven deadly sins? Maybe it's gluttony. I don't know could be sloth, right? Right, right
00:53:35 So what is your what happens if you don't fight?
00:53:38 What happens emotionally to you?
00:53:41 What emotion are you avoiding by doing all this useless fighting?
00:53:45 Taking responsibility like that like if I
00:53:56 Like responsibility is not an emotion. That's it. That's some analytical nonsense. What is the feeling that you are avoiding by fighting?
00:54:04 Discomfort okay, that's not quite an emotion and it's like something negative. Yeah, I get it. But what
00:54:13 and so if she is
00:54:17 I'm just being brought here
00:54:19 But if she says something mean or something like that to me and I turn the other cheek so to speak
00:54:23 And just let it slide
00:54:26 Um, no, no, not just let it fly
00:54:28 But you know, oh that's you know a bit of a zinger what's going on or you know
00:54:31 Is anything I can help with or like, you know, I get zingers all the time
00:54:34 You see him in the live stream, right and right, you know, like hey, what's going on? No, tell me more or whatever, right?
00:54:39 I do not know I
00:54:45 Well, I know
00:54:47 I think
00:54:48 Okay, so if if you get zinged at and you don't fight back you my friend
00:54:55 Are a kid again
00:54:57 Yeah, because that's what happened with your mom you couldn't fight back you just had to swallow it right right right
00:55:07 And if you're a kid again, you can't be a husband. You can't be the leader of the household
00:55:12 I think this is where the pride thing kicks in a bit, right?
00:55:15 Right, right, right. Yeah, so to be a man you have to not react as you did when you were a kid
00:55:20 Now with your mom, you're still a kid, right?
00:55:23 so you do all of that stuff, but if you don't fight back, then your wife becomes your mother and
00:55:29 you lose any respect in the household and
00:55:31 You never get to escape your childhood and all that kind of stuff right, right, right, right, right
00:55:37 Yeah, yeah, I can see that
00:55:41 You had to let your mother
00:55:49 Ride over you or run over you so to speak and you know, of course you did right?
00:55:53 We all do when we're kids, right?
00:55:54 We have to let her if our mothers are bitchy
00:55:56 We have to just find a way to swallow it, right?
00:55:58 we'll usually kick back a bit in the teenage years like fight back a bit in the teenage years, but
00:56:02 But that's a lot of shit to swallow, right
00:56:05 Especially female to male right? It's a little bit extra if that makes sense
00:56:10 A little bit extra shit to swallow right female to male. It's one thing to be dominated by a dad
00:56:16 It's a little bit of a different thing to be done. I don't mean to laugh
00:56:19 It's a little bit of a different thing to be dominated by a mom, right?
00:56:21 Yeah
00:56:23 Okay. Yes
00:56:25 Do you think you have any anger at your mom and how she treated you as a kid
00:56:32 Like like right now like just thinking off the top of my head no, but there is definitely i'm sure there is yeah
00:56:45 No, no, yeah, I take that back. Yeah, like
00:56:47 Like there are some things that have definitely bothered me that I tried to confront her on
00:56:54 And that's I realized that she wasn't going to budge on and i'm like, okay
00:56:59 Well, I just kind of have to deal with that
00:57:01 Okay, so
00:57:04 Why do you have to deal with that
00:57:07 Why do you have to accept that your mother's not going to budge on stuff
00:57:11 You
00:57:13 Uh, well because I uh, well I
00:57:19 Why do I have to accept it? I like you do you mean like accept them in my like
00:57:23 Like defooing them kind of no. No, no forget about the practicality. Let me ask it a different way. Sorry
00:57:29 I was unclear on that. All right
00:57:31 What does it mean?
00:57:34 That your mother
00:57:38 Won't accept or talk about or honor your request
00:57:42 To have a conversation about how she treated you as a kid. What does that mean?
00:57:45 If you were to say oh, no, we are going to talk about this. This is really important to me
00:57:50 And you were the parent you defined the relationship and you messed up mom a lot of times and we need to talk about it
00:57:56 If you were insistent
00:57:58 And you said no, no, no, we are going to talk about it. What would your mother do?
00:58:02 That she would shut down and walk away
00:58:05 Okay, and then you follow her and you say no. No, I mean
00:58:08 Yeah, put on your big girl panties. We are going to talk about this, right?
00:58:11 I mean, this is stuff you inflicted on me. I didn't choose it. I got to deal with it
00:58:15 and so if you just kind of
00:58:17 Pursued the conversation what would happen?
00:58:21 Uh, well, it would just
00:58:24 End at a certain age. She would just just shut that down. Like, okay. So what does that mean that your mother?
00:58:30 Would absolutely refuse to talk about something essential for your mental health
00:58:36 And she doesn't care about it
00:58:38 Her mental health is more important. Well, I don't think it's mental health to avoid talking about things
00:58:43 Her defenses are more important than your needs
00:58:45 Right, right. Right. So does she have a bond with you?
00:58:49 Somewhat. Yeah
00:58:52 No, she doesn't because a bond is when you do things that are really uncomfortable
00:58:56 For the sake of the other person
00:59:02 Mm-hmm
00:59:03 Right, your kids don't need to be bonded with you to go to Disneyland, right?
00:59:06 Right
00:59:09 So the bond is when there's things that are really uncomfortable
00:59:11 Does your mother have a bond with you?
00:59:15 Or is she
00:59:18 More interested in her own defenses and avoidance
00:59:22 well
00:59:24 Yeah more interested in her own defenses
00:59:28 Do you know what it is to be truly bonded?
00:59:32 No. Right
00:59:36 Which is why you and your wife are playing around with this
00:59:41 detonation
00:59:43 device called divorce or
00:59:45 Abandonment, which is why you when you're threatened you rip off the bond, right? You you get cold you turn away, right?
00:59:52 Just as your mother does
00:59:57 If your mother prefers her own defenses to you
00:59:59 In other words if she's willing
01:00:03 To sacrifice your mental health love and happiness for the sake of her own bullshit. She does not love you
01:00:11 And the harm that you think is in the past is actually in the present if I am inconvenient enough
01:00:20 If I upset somebody else
01:00:25 They will leave they will reject me. They will abandon me
01:00:29 Yeah
01:00:37 Now i'm sure that your mother claims to love you, right
01:00:40 Yeah claims to care about you. But
01:00:43 If you have a legitimate request
01:00:46 She will abandon you she will simply reject you right
01:00:51 Now if you were to say to your mother every time she called I still want to talk about this what would happen?
01:00:56 Um, it would just end that like she well she wouldn't call
01:01:03 So she will I mean you keep thinking I give it defu defu. Okay
01:01:07 If you continue to want to have an honest and direct relationship with her about things that are very important to you
01:01:14 And you have a perfect right to talk about
01:01:16 she
01:01:18 Will separate from you. She will divorce you
01:01:21 If you're honest with her, right
01:01:23 Right. Do I have that? I don't want to put words in your mouth. I mean that sounds like what yeah
01:01:27 She would probably not talk with me or she would say. Oh, why can't you forgive me? Uh, you know stuff along those lines
01:01:34 Right. It's like well, I will forgive you when you earn forgiveness and when we talk about it
01:01:39 Yeah
01:01:41 which would be
01:01:42 Almost that because i've tried to talk to her about some other things that were very uncomfortable and
01:01:45 I'd have to say oh don't cheat your mom like that. You're really hurting her
01:01:50 Like well, she didn't care when I was a kid, you know, and I would say stuff like that
01:01:53 Well, look, you know that you can't talk to your parents like this. Uh
01:01:56 so
01:01:58 Right, so they
01:02:00 Will reject who you are despite the fact that them listening would be incredibly
01:02:05 Healthy and healing for you. They would rather you continue to exist in this kind of
01:02:10 fractious torment
01:02:13 Than to simply take responsibility and listen
01:02:18 Right, and what's your big complaint about your wife? She doesn't take responsibility
01:02:22 Yeah, yeah, you get that that's not about your wife fundamentally, right?
01:02:27 Your parents
01:02:34 Don't act in a way that I would define as consistent with love
01:02:40 Right consistent with love is man. You can come to me with anything
01:02:44 right
01:02:48 You can come to me with anything right nothing can come between us we are one flesh
01:02:52 I'd say that my dad is a little bit more willing. Um, i'm not so much
01:03:03 Well, no because your dad what you just talked about your dad was like shooting you down talking to your mom
01:03:08 Right, right if but if he was there without her he would yeah, I could probably I could have that
01:03:15 More intimate conversation with him and he would
01:03:18 He would be more apt to talk to me but but since he was there
01:03:22 But you still haven't had that conversation with him, right? Right? Yeah. No, that's a good point
01:03:27 I i'm not saying whether you should I mean just the fact is you haven't right? So it's very theoretical, right?
01:03:31 right
01:03:34 So your parents
01:03:37 Threaten to break the bond and will break the bond or the pretend bond your parents
01:03:45 Will destroy the relationship rather than listen to your complaints your legitimate reasonable complaints
01:03:50 Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah
01:03:55 So conflict
01:03:58 Is bond destruction?
01:04:00 Right and what happens with you and your wife
01:04:05 Bond destruction conflict is bond destruction and now the conflict has gotten so high
01:04:13 What are your children begging for?
01:04:15 Right divorce bond destruction
01:04:18 To be yourself to be honest to be direct to be vulnerable to have needs all means
01:04:26 bond destruction
01:04:30 So then when you have a conflict with your wife there's a panic
01:04:35 Because if these conflicts arose with your parents
01:04:40 You could be out on the street. You could be not fed. Right like biologically genetically. This would be our fear, right?
01:04:46 I personally myself. I mean I can't tell anyone else what to do, but I personally myself
01:04:55 I'm not interested
01:04:58 In having people in my life
01:05:00 Right who only pretend to have a bond
01:05:04 Right. I mean if there are people in my life and they they want my loyalty and they want all the benefits of having
01:05:10 A bond with me beautiful wonderful lovely great. Let's talk about it, right
01:05:13 But I don't do the pretend bond stuff because then people what they do is they say
01:05:17 Well, I want all the benefits of the bond, but I don't actually want any of the discomfort of the bond
01:05:23 Right, right. I want to loyalty. I want
01:05:26 Family, I want blood is thicker than water. I want honor respect my your parents, right?
01:05:32 I want all of that stuff, but oh don't give me any of that uncomfortable conversation shit. No, thank you. That's that's unpleasant
01:05:39 Right, right, right, right
01:05:41 Which is a guy in a business who wants to spend all the money and doesn't want to do any of the work
01:05:48 Yeah, I guess that would be kind of fun, but that's not the way it is. Yeah, right
01:05:54 And threatening the bond is a foundational control mechanism and it's very destructive
01:06:08 And it's really really kind of murderous in a way
01:06:11 For a parent to threaten the bond with a child is kind of is it is experienced by the child is kind of like a death
01:06:17 threat
01:06:18 Because children can't survive without their parents, right? Right. Absolutely
01:06:22 And you're angry at being controlled and manipulated and bullied in that way
01:06:35 That if you're honest
01:06:37 You're thrown out with the trash
01:06:39 If you're honest you put out with the dog if you're honest
01:06:42 Your parents will take the tent and move in the middle of the night and you'll wake up under the
01:06:47 stars at sunrise
01:06:49 Right, right
01:06:51 And that's a shitty way to treat
01:06:53 Kids, right? I mean would you you wouldn't ever say to your children do what daddy says or i'm kicking you out of the house
01:07:00 at the age of five
01:07:02 Right. Ten, right?
01:07:04 Right
01:07:06 That's the nuclear option and it's it it destroys the relationship
01:07:11 But your wife is not your mother
01:07:17 Right. I know that's like an annoyingly Freudian thing to say of course, right and you know that
01:07:24 But I think that you have some unprocessed anger and frustration
01:07:31 frustration
01:07:32 and fear at the threats your parents
01:07:34 Threw on you when you were a kid
01:07:37 If you complain you're out
01:07:40 Don't you contradict us? You can't have your own thoughts. You can't have any complaints
01:07:45 Or you're out
01:07:48 Or we will I mean we might still keep you in the house, but we're not going to talk to you
01:07:52 Right. We're going to turn away is
01:07:55 It just a question is that
01:07:59 because that sometimes I feel like
01:08:01 And again correct me if i'm wrong, but I feel like if I dissent from my wife i'm going to be
01:08:08 Isolated cut off not talk to board so on and so forth is that
01:08:16 Like I I can't have that relationship with my parents and speak to them the truth and then I
01:08:24 Can't also
01:08:29 I'm experiencing the same thing with with my wife if I tell her but it sounds like you do it to your wife more
01:08:34 Because you say that she's mad at you and you clam up withdraw get cold, right?
01:08:39 um
01:08:42 when I
01:08:43 I'm, sorry, you can totally change that. That's just what I remember. I could have misremembered
01:08:47 right, right now, um, so
01:08:50 We'll get into and this is just a very broad generic synopsis, but i'll say something rude or mean
01:08:58 Uh, she'll react to me when what she wanted me to do was apologize and not dig in and defend what I had done
01:09:05 I usually won't apologize for maybe it'll take me a couple of days
01:09:09 Maybe it'll take me sometimes i've apologized right off the bat. Sometimes it'll take me a couple days
01:09:13 Sometimes it'll take me a week
01:09:15 Um to come around and say yeah, okay, you know what I did was was wrong and I shouldn't have done that
01:09:19 um, sometimes i'll caveat it with a a but but I generally
01:09:23 what i'll do is
01:09:27 It's very annoying for her to see me go about my day and not be affected by it
01:09:32 By what's going on? So let's say the next day, you know
01:09:35 We we're still simmering from the anger of the argument from the day before I will talk. Oh, hey kids. How you doing?
01:09:40 i'll whistle i'll
01:09:42 Sing songs hymns, whatever i'll go about my day. Oh, I gotta do this and I don't know that you know
01:09:46 and i'll actually there's like nothing going on and she will say that I am avoiding her and maybe i'm
01:09:51 Perhaps I am but i'll i'll do what i'll try to think. Hey, you know
01:09:56 I'll try to initiate like some casual conversation or something like that to kind of spark things
01:10:00 And it sometimes doesn't go. Well, yes, there are times. That's a power play, right?
01:10:05 And the power play is you're bothered more than I am. I'm fine
01:10:09 Right
01:10:12 You're saying that's that's your part
01:10:14 Which is oh, no, i'm fine. Hey, man, if you're bothered, I guess you're the weak one. I'm the strong one. I'm fine. I don't care
01:10:21 Right, right and that that definitely comes from your parents. I mean without a doubt
01:10:26 That your parents would be like messed up and there'd be some then they'd be when people would come over or whatever
01:10:30 They'd be fine and right, right
01:10:32 Or i'll talk to you
01:10:35 Right. Um, well, you know things will get very morose around the house and then I feel this need to like, okay. Well the like
01:10:41 Get the kids out go do something occupy them. So they're not around because if we're around each other we'll just be
01:10:48 Sniping at each other
01:10:51 Okay, right right right i'm like, okay well I need to you know get the kids
01:10:56 and i'll take the kids and i'll go do something and then
01:10:58 um that
01:11:00 Becomes kind of a i'm using them as
01:11:03 Lever or i'm trying to i'll spend the time to build a relationship with them
01:11:08 But not try to spend the time to build a relationship or repairing it with my wife right now
01:11:12 You understand how unbelievably
01:11:15 Weak and girly and manipulative all this shit is
01:11:19 Yes
01:11:22 Just be direct like can can you be direct? Can you say? Yeah, i'm i'm hurt. Oh, yeah
01:11:26 I'm upset or i'm angry at you and it's not fair or I said something mean and that's bad
01:11:32 I'm, so sorry like that's you know
01:11:34 You're the mother of my children like can you be direct or is it all of this like fucking chess pieces three-dimensional?
01:11:39 And well i'm gonna move the kids here and i'm gonna pretend i'm gonna whistle because I don't want to show that i'm upset
01:11:44 Like you can't be directed. That means that you grew up without a bond
01:11:47 Yeah, uh, I cannot be
01:11:52 That's what um, I
01:11:54 I almost feel as though like sometimes both approaches don't work because when I feel like okay
01:11:59 Maybe things have calmed down. I can try and be reconciliatory
01:12:02 And i'll try to approach and i'll say okay. Well, hey, look, yeah, i'd really like to talk about these things
01:12:06 Let's not get upset. Let's not yell. Let's you know
01:12:08 Let's let's try and talk these things through so I can hear what you're saying and so on and so forth
01:12:12 Already done the damage by being manipulative for a day or two or three
01:12:17 Right, right
01:12:18 So you've already hurt and frustrated her
01:12:20 And angered her and bewildered her like you're just walking around like i'm really upset and he doesn't seem to care at all
01:12:26 That's really frustrating and hurtful, right?
01:12:28 And then after a couple of days of this kind of mental torture, you're like, hey
01:12:32 Let's just sit down and talk about this reasonably. It's like I don't think so
01:12:35 Right, right, right, right. Exactly. Yeah, that's a that's a jerk move to do
01:12:40 To the mother of my children
01:12:46 That you chose and continue to choose right, right exactly. So the directness the directness
01:12:52 I mean, I don't know if you've read real-time relationships, but it's directness of just
01:12:57 Here's what I think here's what I feel no judgment just facts
01:13:00 I feel like if I don't fight back i'm gonna fall down a well or it's like I got that feeling like i'm
01:13:09 I don't know what's going on. I don't know why i'm so right
01:13:14 I I I feel this after you said that not because of it. It just happened, right?
01:13:18 Right, right. Um
01:13:21 Yeah, no, i've never really done that I think uh
01:13:26 Because how okay do you have a relationship where you don't
01:13:31 Manipulate and you're just straight and direct about what you think and feel
01:13:35 With my wife or are you just meaning anyone?
01:13:40 I don't think
01:13:42 Maybe maybe one of the pastors but other than that, um, I can't one of the pastors
01:13:55 One does your pastor know that your marriage is in shambles and your kids have been for divorce?
01:14:01 Right. Yes, he does. He does. He does know that. Okay. Yeah. All right
01:14:05 now
01:14:09 Manipulation equals one thing
01:14:11 And one thing only that's not often understood. I just lay this out there if it doesn't fit you obviously, you know
01:14:17 Shrug it off like a bad coat
01:14:19 Manipulation is the same as isolation
01:14:22 Because you can't correct connect with someone directly you can't be visible you can't be seen you can't be accepted for who you are
01:14:30 You're just pushing all of these
01:14:33 Imaginary chess pieces all over the place trying to make an effect or have an effect
01:14:37 You can't be direct which means you can't be seen and you can't see the other person
01:14:41 You can't reveal let down your defenses and be intimate with someone be connected with someone be vulnerable to someone
01:14:46 Which means that you're surrounded by this moat and you're in a castle of isolation
01:14:51 Right, you're like some old king who can't ever who can't talk to someone on the other side of the kingdom
01:14:59 He's just got to send messages and hope they get there. He can't ever hug. He can't ever connect
01:15:03 Right, right, right
01:15:07 And also if you grow up without a bond that isolation is foundational, I mean it's
01:15:12 You're not loved and respected and treasured for who you are but only insofar as you serve the petty weak
01:15:21 emotional needs and manipulations of your parents
01:15:24 You can spend your whole life pleasing people because you can't connect with them or they won't connect with you
01:15:32 You
01:15:34 So you're saying that i'm going around manipulating and it's
01:15:45 Because I feel this sense of isolation
01:15:49 Well, you have to if you've not directly connected with somebody it always goes through this filter of manipulation
01:15:54 If you can't just directly talk to someone and say honestly what you think and feel
01:16:02 Right and you're kind of alone, right
01:16:04 Yeah, I I so, uh
01:16:10 yes, I I I realize I
01:16:12 I I chose my wife and she is the mother of my children and
01:16:18 So many of these other things and I I
01:16:23 Get emotional and I say abusive and hurtful and mean things and yet at the same time
01:16:29 I do want to be able to talk with her about things that are truthful and honest and and uncomfortable
01:16:34 Because I feel as though I can't have that bond with my parents, but I want to be able to do that with her
01:16:39 But when I try to I know it elicits some uncomfortableness on on her behalf and i'm not letting myself off the hook
01:16:46 What's on your wife because you've trained her in this way and she chose you
01:16:49 Because you're I mean you're rewriting the equation here. You're saying i'm going to be direct and honest now
01:16:57 Right
01:16:58 Now, well, I'm, sorry go ahead
01:17:00 Uh, there have been times where I have tried to approach her
01:17:04 With things that are truthful and honest and they have been they've been blown up into fights
01:17:08 and there are times that I have
01:17:10 More often than not that I have been that i've said something mean and rude and that has resulted in well
01:17:14 You've got a you've got a lot of bodies, right?
01:17:16 I mean you got 23 years of this or 22 years of these kinds of fights. So it's going to take a while to turn
01:17:22 To turn around
01:17:26 Uh, is it sorry, um, uh, I have to go do my uh guard checks real quick. Is it possible?
01:17:32 I I don't know what time I know
01:17:34 You're on a very limited time schedule, but I don't know. Um, no, there's a little bit more. Uh, you want to give me a callback?
01:17:41 Yeah, is that is that okay? Yeah. Yeah, just go do your thing and give me a callback
01:17:45 Okay. Um, what's my uh time window here? Because I know you probably have to well, how long do you need?
01:17:51 Uh, hold on, um just roughly
01:17:55 Would 30 minutes be okay? Uh, yes, we could do 30 minutes
01:17:59 Okay. Okay. I it may be sooner than that, but uh, i'll i'll call you back as soon as possible
01:18:05 All right. Thanks, man. Bye. Okay. All right. Thanks. Bye. Ah, there we go
01:18:08 There we go. All right you back
01:18:11 Yes. All right. All right. All right
01:18:14 Um, so I guess yeah, I mean that's maybe just a theoretical way of or a framework for looking at it
01:18:21 But of course the big question is like what do you want to have happen? What's under your control?
01:18:26 That doesn't rely on your wife
01:18:29 choosing anything
01:18:31 That's the big question, right? Because the moment that you say well, i'll do x but my wife better do y
01:18:36 Well, you just lost control of the situation, right?
01:18:38 Right, right, right, right. So what can you commit to that's most in alignment with the christian values?
01:18:46 That will have you like, you know, if your marriage succeeds your marriage fails
01:18:50 I mean, it's not completely under your control. Of course, your wife could just decide to leave you
01:18:54 but in general, I think the best approach in life is to say
01:18:59 I couldn't have done any better
01:19:02 Right, and then if something doesn't work out or whatever
01:19:05 Then at least you don't see kicking yourself later saying oh I should have done this that or the other if that makes sense
01:19:10 So what can you do
01:19:15 That is going to give you the best conscience and I think the best conscience aligns with the best outcome for your marriage
01:19:21 But what can you do?
01:19:22 That's going to align
01:19:24 most
01:19:26 With virtue with christ-like teachings with christianity with what you consider to be the good and of course your wedding vows
01:19:32 right
01:19:34 um
01:19:36 I would like to save it like like I I
01:19:45 I do care deeply about her and I I want the kids, you know, I want the kids to
01:19:49 I don't want to go through this on purpose, but I want them to see that
01:19:54 You know, I I messed up and
01:19:58 Was able to fix it, you know that I I when I had a problem I sought out guidance and
01:20:08 Fix what I could about me to
01:20:14 Save the marriage, you know and be a good dad be a good husband be a good
01:20:19 father pastor
01:20:21 Everything you know, I
01:20:23 Right, all right
01:20:29 Now, i'm, sorry, you don't have to answer anything
01:20:32 You don't want to answer. Um, but I assume I assume that your wife, uh, you and your wife are still having to some degree
01:20:39 Sexual relations of some kind or another and i'm not asking this just for right, right, you know prudence
01:20:44 I'm that there's a sort of reason why i'm asking and right i'm just you don't have to answer
01:20:48 I just go on the assumption that you know, you've got four kids, right?
01:20:50 So one of the worst things that can happen to a woman
01:20:54 Is if she goes through the experience?
01:20:59 of
01:21:01 I'm good enough to have sex with but i'm not good enough to treat. Well
01:21:06 Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's absolutely yeah, that would be horrible. Yeah to feel like that. Yeah, she she uh
01:21:12 I could say that she probably feels that she that is no, I I know that's that's
01:21:19 She's just being used right? She's yeah
01:21:22 I mean because then it's of course I don't like you but i'll use your body is something that really is
01:21:28 and that's kind of like a woman who's
01:21:32 You know calling you an asshole and and swearing at you and then saying right. Oh, i'm gonna need a lot of money
01:21:37 Right, like i'm good enough my wallet. I'm just not good enough to treat well
01:21:42 And so that's that's another huge issue. Of course that makes women. Um
01:21:48 Really hostile is you know, it's like well you you just treated me like crap and now you want to have sex which means that
01:21:57 It's just my body you're interested in and you really don't like me as a person
01:22:01 But she'll use my body and that of course as you know, it's very disconnected from
01:22:05 The soul right? Right, right. So absolutely, um a to uh
01:22:11 Little context there when we are not fighting. It's absolutely fantastic. I
01:22:16 More than I could possibly want. Uh when we're when we're fighting
01:22:20 There's none which is understandable because I also don't want her to feel like
01:22:25 Um, she is being used and and you know, it's also not in the mood either. Um, but uh,
01:22:31 um
01:22:33 Yeah, I get that. That's just something to remember
01:22:35 The other thing of course is that if you if you say things that indicate
01:22:40 contempt for character
01:22:42 Uh, you know the biggest sign of a divorce is contempt right where you just curl your lip
01:22:49 They're not even worth interacting with they're so crazy. They're like there's no
01:22:53 Uh, there's no respect at all
01:22:55 And and the reason for that is that if you say to a woman, you know, I don't know I hate you or something
01:23:00 I'm not saying you would have said that but if you say something really hostile and negative towards a woman
01:23:04 Then either you mean it
01:23:08 In which case I mean, I don't even then everything's just a charade and it's nonsense
01:23:13 Or you don't mean it, but you're just saying it to hurt her and get your way
01:23:16 like either you do kind of hate her or
01:23:20 you're just
01:23:22 hurting her and bullying her to get your way and this is why
01:23:24 Speaking harshly to your partner is just I mean, I can't even it's just the worst thing
01:23:30 Emphasize how much that is not on the table, right? Right? And also, uh, i'm sorry. Go ahead
01:23:35 um
01:23:37 there are
01:23:39 Three things that I can think of that i've i've said to her
01:23:43 um
01:23:45 one is
01:23:48 This is about five years ago
01:23:50 I said to her you're the worst person i've ever met
01:23:53 Which is absolutely devastating to hear
01:23:56 And she's she's never forgot. She she yeah, she's never she's never forgot. I don't blame her. So i'm not
01:24:02 and
01:24:05 But i've said that to her and then um, we were arguing
01:24:07 on our way to church
01:24:10 and I
01:24:11 I said why can't you be a better mom?
01:24:13 And then we walked into church and I acted like there was nothing
01:24:17 going on and then um
01:24:19 Uh, she has had
01:24:23 Uh 16 miscarriages and
01:24:26 for
01:24:28 many of them I have
01:24:30 Not been there either emotionally or physically
01:24:33 Um during her time of need and she feels
01:24:37 An absolute abandonment and she is not wrong in that I have 16 miscarriages my gosh. Yeah
01:24:46 I'm, so sorry
01:24:48 she's uh
01:24:49 She's really tough
01:24:51 She's really tough
01:24:53 Wow, wow
01:24:56 Wow, okay. All right. So you want to keep the marriage, right?
01:25:02 I I wouldn't want to be married to me
01:25:08 Okay, do do you want to work on the marriage you want to fix the marriage yes
01:25:15 Yeah, yes, I do. Um
01:25:17 I can't blame her for not wanting to forgive me when I say those things, right?
01:25:22 Right. Yeah. Well, I mean it's not a mortal sin
01:25:26 uh, so you can
01:25:28 You know if if you went to an extremity where you said like you're the worst person i've ever met and why can't you be?
01:25:34 A better mother and so on
01:25:36 If you get to an extremity like that and that draws you up short and you say my gosh
01:25:39 I really have to work on my anger issues
01:25:41 I really have to work to get take anger management like if that's something where you hit rock hit rock bottom
01:25:46 And fix yourself then that stuff is forgivable. In other words, you can
01:25:50 Forgivable is when you look back and you say it was a good thing that that happened. I didn't like it at the time
01:25:57 But it was a good thing that he said that to me because that was when things really began to turn out
01:26:02 Right. Does that make sense?
01:26:04 Yeah, I know that's that's that's beautifully put. I never looked at it that way
01:26:08 But that hasn't happened right? You just keep bouncing down, right? There's no bouncing back up, right? Right, right, right
01:26:14 I just keep digging in it keeps getting worse. Yeah, so
01:26:18 That's when
01:26:21 Forgiveness is earned is when you turn it around and you know, hopefully this is something like that. Um,
01:26:28 So what
01:26:31 Is the biblical commandment?
01:26:34 For these you say messed up. Um, I don't mean to be overly harsh. I've used this stuff as a sin
01:26:40 You know messed up is oh man
01:26:44 I had that appointment and I completely forgot about it because I forgot to put it in my reminder or whatever, right?
01:26:49 Right. I mean you went against your vows, right?
01:26:52 Right. Yeah to love someone doesn't mean that you also tell them they're the worst person you've ever met
01:26:58 right
01:27:00 if she has deficiencies as a mother then you work to support her as
01:27:04 I have deficiencies as a father. My wife wife will work to support me and vice versa
01:27:09 And so yeah, we all have deficiencies. That's why partnership is so good, right?
01:27:13 Right, right. So if she has deficiencies, you don't loftily tell her how bad she is you work with her to improve, right?
01:27:20 Right, right, right, right
01:27:22 So you made vows
01:27:24 I mean really it's to God, right?
01:27:27 Right. Absolutely. It involves your partner, but the vows are
01:27:31 to God
01:27:33 And what does God think of how you fulfilled your vows?
01:27:36 Right
01:27:38 I've done a terrible job of it
01:27:41 Well and
01:27:44 I mean, obviously not a hundred percent terrible. She's still there, but you know, there's there's a squeaky bit of room for improvement
01:27:50 Let's say right? Right, right. So if you fail your vows
01:27:57 Is it something that is acceptable within christianity to blame somebody else for you failing your vows?
01:28:04 No
01:28:09 I mean, I think
01:28:11 that I mean my understanding of it is
01:28:13 There can be influences, but it's ultimately up to you
01:28:17 Right, right
01:28:19 Like if somebody says I dare you
01:28:21 to sleep with that woman like you're married or whatever and and somebody says I dare you to sleep with that woman and you say
01:28:27 No, and then they say well, no, I double dog dare you and you're like, oh, okay
01:28:31 Well, then I will right now you could say well, it's the other person double dog daring me
01:28:36 But it really comes down to your own free will eventually, right?
01:28:38 Right, right
01:28:41 Yeah, so to counter sin
01:28:43 We have to withdraw
01:28:47 blame because blame
01:28:49 Weakens our willpower and our resolution to pursue virtue
01:28:53 Because blame is just another word for excuse, right? Right, right, right
01:28:58 Well, my wife provokes me therefore I get angry and it's like that's right
01:29:02 No, yeah, it's removing the culpability on my
01:29:05 Well, then you're not as put upon as jesus was getting nailed up on calvary
01:29:10 and he didn't curse his
01:29:12 Right actually asked for forgiveness right for those who were literally nailing him up
01:29:18 But you curse your wife when she angers you right, right, right. Yep
01:29:22 So I think to recommit to the vows
01:29:27 Is to recommit to your relationship with god and to recommit to the humility of saying yes
01:29:34 Look, we all we all sin. We all have temptation
01:29:37 we all have ill tempers and so on and sometimes those ill tempers can be good like I always think of
01:29:42 Jesus and the money changes right takes out the whip because sometimes anger righteous anger
01:29:48 Is like just war it's a it's a it's a good a noble thing
01:29:51 But not to the mother of your children, even though she may be behaving badly
01:29:55 So to be a leader
01:29:58 To be a leader
01:30:00 Is to not blame anyone
01:30:02 right
01:30:04 And you want to be the head of the household, but if you're head of the household
01:30:07 You know the buck stops here. It means that you are responsible
01:30:11 You get the respect and you get to be in charge so to speak
01:30:15 But when you get the respect and you get to be in charge, it means that you can't blame
01:30:19 Anybody else for anything if you want the highest paycheck, then you have to not blame right other people
01:30:26 Right, right. We it's yeah, you can't
01:30:28 You know take credit for all the successes and then when it doesn't go well be like, oh i'm not associated with that. It's no
01:30:35 You you take yeah, it's the old thing that when the company's doing well
01:30:39 I'm the best leader there is when the company's losing money. It's because of those damn workers
01:30:44 Right, right, right. So yeah, if you if you want to be the head of the household then um
01:30:49 The head is the one that takes all so you just have to take all the responsibility
01:30:53 Right, of course the goal is and I think the ideal is if you take more responsibility
01:30:57 Your wife at some point will probably follow suit and start taking responsibility
01:31:01 But if you blame her and say well, you just don't take responsibility and that's why i'm angry
01:31:06 Then you're modeling not taking responsibility while asking someone to take responsibility
01:31:11 Right, right
01:31:14 Yeah, yeah, yep valid valid point and what it really comes down to in my humble opinion is
01:31:21 Man, we haven't really talked about them much, but you got four kids here
01:31:25 Yeah
01:31:28 now they
01:31:30 Should be the north star that you guide everything by
01:31:33 Right because they did not choose to come into this situation
01:31:38 You chose to have children you chose to keep those children you're chosen you're choosing to raise those children and good for you
01:31:44 But they're not here by choice your wife and yourself are here by choice
01:31:49 Anything which is
01:31:53 Harmful to your children is absolutely off the table
01:31:58 Right, like you wouldn't feed them a steady diet of chocolate and peanut brittle, right?
01:32:02 Right, you wouldn't not take them to the dentist. You wouldn't
01:32:05 Say you can
01:32:08 You don't have to ever go to sleep. You wouldn't right you would
01:32:11 You do things that's for the betterment of your children for the health and welfare of your children
01:32:16 And your children are currently being tortured by the level of conflict
01:32:19 right
01:32:21 now that is
01:32:23 A failure in my view of love for your children
01:32:27 Because I think you love being right or being
01:32:31 justified or
01:32:34 being self-righteous
01:32:35 More than the humility of saying I have to do what's best for my children. And if my wife is pushing my buttons
01:32:42 I have to think of god. I have to think of my vows. I have to think of my virtues
01:32:47 I think I have to think of jesus, but I absolutely completely and totally have to think of my children
01:32:52 right
01:32:54 Yeah, yeah
01:32:56 I mean if we're going to look at the duality
01:33:00 Who's running the marriage?
01:33:04 God or the other guy
01:33:07 Well
01:33:12 The other guy right now
01:33:14 Well, I think so. I think you've let hate into your heart and again, I understand this where it comes from
01:33:19 I think you've let hate into your heart. I think you've let pride into your heart. I think you've let
01:33:23 justification and
01:33:26 wanting to dominate rather than
01:33:28 in gender respect
01:33:30 And listen, I mean we all have that it's it's part of human nature
01:33:34 It's you know, we could say it's it's our fallen state or however you want to put it
01:33:37 But that's exactly why we need these values and these virtues and this commitment to
01:33:42 Doing things in a proper and righteous way
01:33:45 Yeah, yeah
01:33:48 If you crack up the marriage
01:33:52 Without having given it all of your virtuous effort
01:33:56 Right, then you are modeling
01:34:00 Helplessness hopelessness and despair for your children
01:34:03 Right, right, and they will just simply repeat it
01:34:06 Yeah, what you're saying is well, you know
01:34:09 You can have been together for 23 years and it just doesn't work out
01:34:13 Right, and then they'll just never want to
01:34:17 Do that themselves
01:34:20 Well, you will then see
01:34:22 right, you know, the devil gives you this immediate satisfaction of being right and dominating others and
01:34:28 Storing around and and then what happens is you get to see your children repeat your mistakes
01:34:34 Which is appalling to your heart
01:34:36 Right, like that's the punishment people in hell. I mean, you don't have to die to go to hell, right?
01:34:41 Right. In fact dying can be a relief from the hell of seeing your mistakes be repeated on the part of your children
01:34:47 Yeah, yeah, absolutely
01:34:54 And you know what the right thing to do is right this is not a huge mystery
01:34:57 I'm not saying it's easy, right but you know what the right thing to do is
01:35:00 Right. You need to find a way to calm your temper
01:35:03 you need to apologize and make restitution and
01:35:07 You need to not do the tit for tat stuff, which is okay
01:35:12 I'll take one half step towards you, but you better take a half a step towards me, right? Because then you have no free will
01:35:18 right
01:35:20 right because then you're just yeah, always hinging it on somebody else and
01:35:24 Yeah, I don't think that the
01:35:26 You know when I was a kid, you know, the statement was always uh, well the other kids were doing it
01:35:31 Oh, yeah. Well if they all jumped off the brooklyn bridge, would you jump off it too? Right? It's like you have to have your own
01:35:36 Ownership of your virtues it has to be you committing to virtues and god
01:35:42 Is not going to say to you. Well, you don't have to be good if your wife doesn't match you step for step
01:35:48 That's what that's what the devil would say because then you can just cast aside being good
01:35:54 Right, right because hey, man, I took one step. She didn't take one step
01:35:58 So now I can go back to being a jerk again, right? Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent point
01:36:03 Which is kind of like if you know
01:36:05 If you and your wife were both fat and you wanted to lose weight, you wouldn't sit there and say well
01:36:10 I lost two pounds. My wife didn't lose anything. So i'll just go back to eating
01:36:14 crap
01:36:16 right
01:36:22 Yep, and if you can show your kids turning this around
01:36:25 Then they may say it got really bad and we're glad that it did because that's when things began to really turn around
01:36:33 Yeah
01:36:36 It's um, it's at a point where when I come home
01:36:40 But i'm like i'm i'm staying the night. They're like, oh, please god go
01:36:44 Please leave
01:36:49 Right and that's got to be just tearing your heart in a thousand pieces. Yeah. Well, um
01:36:56 I I tell my wife i'm like hey
01:36:59 I uh, I you know
01:37:03 I don't want to restart. I don't want to go out and find somebody else
01:37:06 I like the like that the life and the things and stuff that I have
01:37:09 And uh
01:37:13 She she says well, you're just staying staying with me for the kids. You don't actually love me
01:37:19 And you don't actually and i'm i'm just trying to figure out how I can over
01:37:22 You know it demonstrate like okay. No, I I i'm going to do this
01:37:28 recommitment
01:37:30 to you
01:37:31 You know and that it's not well i'm just staying together for can be i'm staying together for the kids and you know
01:37:36 I don't want to lose all my money
01:37:38 Well, I mean if I if I were talking to her though, I would say don't you try that self-pity thing with me young lady
01:37:44 Uh-huh, because you chose him, too
01:37:48 Right you chose to I mean you knew who he was you knew he had a temper you knew he had a vicious tongue
01:37:53 And you chose to date get engaged get married have children stay with
01:37:58 Uh-huh, so you can't be a victim here
01:38:01 Because then what you're doing is you're teaching your children that you can make all the choices in the world and still be a helpless victim
01:38:08 Right, so she chose you
01:38:12 She has remained with you
01:38:16 And so she can't be I mean, I mean you could easily say to her. Well, you're just here with me for the income
01:38:22 Right. Well, all right. Yeah, I mean how does that that doesn't really help anything and you're both still there
01:38:28 And it's not up to you anymore
01:38:31 It's not up to you anymore. It's up to what's best for your children
01:38:35 Right, and of course as you know
01:38:38 If you were to leave your wife, like let's not have any delusions about the grass being greener on the other side
01:38:44 Right of the fence if you if you leave your wife, you're gonna be broke
01:38:48 Right, you think you have money troubles now
01:38:52 Wait till you get divorced
01:38:54 Right, and you got two households to run and you got legal bills
01:38:57 Right
01:39:00 Or your wife has to what go and get a job and then who's going to take care of your kids?
01:39:04 You got a four-year-old
01:39:05 Right, right. So you think you're broke now?
01:39:08 You think you've got money troubles now you wait till the marriage collapses and then you'll be like man
01:39:12 We had we were the Rockefellers back then now with the Flintstones
01:39:16 Right, right. So there's no grass is greener. You're gonna have way less money
01:39:20 It's going to take you years and years and years
01:39:24 To get over being married. They say it takes about half the length of the relationship to get over it
01:39:29 right
01:39:31 you are
01:39:33 still going to be
01:39:35 A bit of a mean guy, but you'll be a bit of a mean guy with a huge failure as well
01:39:41 Right, right, right and you'll be trying to
01:39:43 Figure out what to tell your kids
01:39:46 you'll be a mess and you'll be
01:39:48 Unable to
01:39:53 Find love now if if you do everything right and and great and wonderful
01:39:57 Then it still doesn't work out at least you will have acquitted yourself with honor and you'll have a good conscience about it
01:40:02 And that's a big step
01:40:04 forward but if
01:40:05 You know you say terrible things and you fight with your wife and you escalate and then the marriage
01:40:09 She leaves you you leave her or something like that. You've got heartbroken kids. You're broke
01:40:13 Uh, you're gonna be a mess. You're gonna be like living in a car trying to date. I don't know what right but it's gonna be
01:40:20 a disaster so I mean and and again
01:40:23 it's
01:40:26 About what is best for your kids now
01:40:27 Your kids are saying we would rather you two be apart and that shows you just how much damage has been done to them
01:40:33 Because right for children as a whole for their parents to divorce is generally considered or feels like just about the worst thing
01:40:39 Possible, but they would prefer that to what's happening, right?
01:40:42 Right
01:40:46 Which means that you have?
01:40:48 Betrayed
01:40:50 Your vows to god
01:40:53 Jesus your wife
01:40:55 Yourself, but in most particular in your children
01:40:59 Right, you chose to have them and you gave them kind of an acid nest for them to try and get comfortable in which they can't
01:41:05 Do right. Yeah
01:41:07 Yeah
01:41:09 Yeah
01:41:12 And now I I so
01:41:15 Practical stuff again. I'm not a big one for like this practical stuff, but this and this is an emergency
01:41:19 I'll just give you my two cents of thoughts and then i'll let you finish the the chat
01:41:24 uh
01:41:27 Relationship
01:41:29 Relationship detox as a whole relationship detox. This is anyone and everyone
01:41:34 Who has not helped is expendable?
01:41:37 Okay, anyone and everyone who hasn't sat you down and said dude your marriage is going off the rails like what is happening
01:41:43 How can I help this is like we care about you. We care about your kids family friends
01:41:48 Congregation members pastors. I don't care
01:41:51 Anybody who's let you slide this far into this kind of mess is expendable
01:41:57 Because they're not committed to helping you. They're not committed to the health and sanctity of your marriage and the protection of your children
01:42:04 Your parents do they know yeah. All right, and what have they done?
01:42:12 Um
01:42:16 They've been one-sided
01:42:20 Which is which side?
01:42:22 Right. Well, obviously mine. Well, I don't necessarily know that
01:42:25 So have they said she's terrible. She's doing everything wrong. You're a poor victim. I mean obviously not quite that obvious, but right, right. I I
01:42:34 That that's why I don't
01:42:40 I you know, I go to them to to complain but i'm not like oh, yeah, you know what?
01:42:44 Hey, you're right mom and dad. I should just leave her. Um, but what do they say there about her they uh
01:42:51 My uh, my mom says I should work it out my dad. Um, he wants me to work it out, but he's also like, uh
01:42:58 I could see why you would want to leave
01:43:00 so
01:43:02 I guess what does working out mean though? Oh, right. Right. Right. Well, I uh
01:43:07 Well, you you know if I tell him like hey dad, you know, I want to go see a counseling service
01:43:13 I want to he's like, okay. Yep. Absolutely if I was like dad, I want to run away. He did. Okay. Sure
01:43:17 you know, so he he's kind of going on my
01:43:21 You know
01:43:23 suggestions of of how I
01:43:25 Do it my mom is always because she was the one who fought to keep her and my dad together
01:43:29 Um, she's always like yeah, I know you guys can work it out
01:43:32 So your mom was the one who fought to keep oh your mom and your dad together, right?
01:43:38 Yeah, my mom and dad was the one who was leaving the page the the yellow pages open to the divorce lawyers and stuff
01:43:43 Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, which is why it's not the best advice to to listen to them
01:43:47 So I kind of take what they I I you know, I listen to what they're saying, but i'm not like, oh, okay
01:43:52 Well, mom and dad have great rock solid relationship advice. I'm gonna follow that but have they ever said
01:43:57 Gee, I wonder where you got your vicious tongue from
01:44:01 Uh, uh
01:44:05 My dad has said oh, yeah. Hey, that sounds like uh your mom, you know, like when I say something or he's like
01:44:10 Hey, yeah, you know you get your anger from me
01:44:13 And and he'll oh he would say you get your anger from your mom
01:44:16 So she was he would say you get your anger from your mom
01:44:19 No, no, no, he would say that uh, like I got my uh withdraw because I would tell him
01:44:24 Hey, you know when i'm talking with my wife i'll say something mean and then i'll kind of withdraw and be cold and he's like
01:44:30 Oh you get that from me?
01:44:31 Uh, and then i'd say oh I will do you know something else and he said oh that's that sounds like your mother
01:44:36 You know, so he was able to pinpoint
01:44:39 Where these certain traits and things like that were so he was you know, he he knew
01:44:43 Like when I would explain something he was like, oh well that sounds like your mother and I so he okay so have they
01:44:51 said gee
01:44:53 We got to really work on this stuff or we're really sorry that we gave you this bad modeling because it's really having a huge
01:44:59 effect
01:45:00 Right. Uh, they haven't said, uh that they are
01:45:04 well, they
01:45:06 They feel really bad that we're going through it, but they haven't
01:45:08 They've stopped short of saying wow, that's us
01:45:12 You know and you're modeling that i'm so so sorry that we set such a poor example
01:45:18 Um, they may have said something
01:45:21 Light along those lines, but I can't remember anything specifically. I probably would have remembered if they had
01:45:28 So but yeah, I think you would have too. Okay, so they're not taking any responsibility
01:45:35 For modeling a bad marriage, right? They see it. They don't take responsibility for it and they are you know
01:45:42 Whichever direction of the wind I blow they'll blow too
01:45:46 So if I say I want to run they'll say go ahead and run if I say I want to stay they'll say stay
01:45:50 Um, and how long have you been talking with your parents about the problems in your marriage?
01:45:55 Uh, i've generally just been talking with my dad
01:45:59 because those were times when it was like
01:46:03 Okay, she's actually kicking me out of the house. She's like screaming at me. I want a divorce leave me
01:46:08 Don't come back to the house. Yada. Yada. Yada. I was like, I don't know where i'm gonna go. I don't know what to do
01:46:12 um, and so those were times when I was like
01:46:15 um
01:46:17 I I didn't know what to do
01:46:19 Um, and so so for probably about the last uh, I I talked to my dad
01:46:25 back in uh, august when we were first going through the reconciler
01:46:30 Um, and I I didn't go into any depth. I was just like hey, we're having problems. It's it's really rough
01:46:36 um, and then I gave him kind of an update, okay, hey actually working things through and then
01:46:41 Maybe three weeks or so ago. I told him hey
01:46:44 Um, by the way now it actually looks like it's super official
01:46:47 Um, it's gotten super bad and he's like well, you know, I was really hoping that you guys would work it out
01:46:53 But you know, sometimes these things happen, you know, you kind of relapse from
01:46:56 You know, you you make up and then all of a sudden boom. It's just
01:46:59 It's just kind of like a time delay
01:47:01 and uh
01:47:03 Okay, so the man is completely useless worse than useless
01:47:05 No, he's I mean like look, I mean the conversations that we're having
01:47:10 I mean i'm right no expert in this area just some common sense stuff, but
01:47:15 Your dad who's known you forever, right?
01:47:19 And who watched you grow up and saw you as a baby and like he said well, you know
01:47:23 Sometimes these things happen. Well shit I can say that anyone can say that. Yes. Sometimes things do happen
01:47:29 That's really insightful dad boy. Does that ever does that ever illuminate the landscape?
01:47:34 Yeah, yeah shit happens. Yeah. Yeah good one
01:47:37 Okay, so
01:47:41 They're they're modeled bad behavior. They're not taking any ownership. They excuse themselves
01:47:45 We did the best we could they provide you no insight or valuable information and don't take any ownership for anything they did
01:47:52 Right, correct
01:47:54 Well
01:47:56 If you had to choose between your parents and your wife
01:47:59 Pretty expendable my parents. Well, I mean they're the past and your wife is your future and your kids
01:48:06 Need their mother and you guys together getting along a lot more than they need their grandparents
01:48:12 right
01:48:14 That's uh
01:48:16 Ooh
01:48:20 Yeah, that is not uh, that is not easy
01:48:22 But so so uh
01:48:26 I I feel really bad because it's like okay
01:48:31 I'm going to pick my parents over my wife and it's like I don't like delivering bad news to anybody
01:48:36 To include my wife even though I will do it. All right, i'll get i'll get into it with my wife, but the the
01:48:42 Anxiety that I have from like, you know having to tell the boss something no or or to displease somebody
01:48:49 let alone my parents, but then like
01:48:51 I like I I love my wife so much and i'm such a freaking
01:48:54 Jerk and dick and it's like here. I am like, well, I don't know if I can cut ties with my parents
01:48:59 Listen, i'm not i'm not saying you have to cut ties with your parents. I don't know
01:49:04 But you gotta have a clear line in your head where you see these people like all the behavior that is fucking up your marriage
01:49:12 Right anybody who's modeling that behavior. You have to take a break from
01:49:17 Right now this doesn't mean oh brother father. I will never see you again
01:49:20 This is it. I don't and but and it could you could but in your head in your mind
01:49:26 Doesn't matter what happens in your head and in your mind doesn't matter what happens in the world in your head in your mind
01:49:32 everyone who's modeling
01:49:35 irresponsibility
01:49:37 Everyone who's modeling a complete lack of insight anybody who's blaming others anybody who's useless
01:49:43 Right, you have to have a mental barrier. I don't know what happens in the world, but you have to have a mental barrier
01:49:49 right, which is
01:49:52 my parents
01:49:54 Are doing the opposite of whatever helping is
01:49:57 right
01:49:59 because
01:50:00 If your parents won't take responsibility
01:50:02 And they're
01:50:05 with respect and and
01:50:07 Honor in your mind
01:50:10 Will you be able to take responsibility?
01:50:12 right
01:50:14 No
01:50:15 You won't be able to do it
01:50:17 Right now if you say I you know, my parents won't take responsibility. That's kind of toxic
01:50:22 I don't know what happens in the world. I don't do the world thing. I just do what's in the mind, right?
01:50:27 But you have to denormalize all of that stuff
01:50:32 Because
01:50:35 You are still looking up to your parents and accepting your parents
01:50:39 Accepting your parents their behavior bleeds over into you. It's kind of like a possession
01:50:44 Whatever we approve of we reproduce whatever we normalize we act
01:50:49 right
01:50:51 So i'm not saying you've got to go up and march and have some horrible conversation with your parents or anything like that
01:51:00 I have no idea but in your head you have to say
01:51:02 These are people who have a bad marriage
01:51:08 They're not giving me any good advice. They don't take any responsibility
01:51:11 And they threaten the bond with me every time I disagree with them
01:51:14 Are those good elements to have in my marriage right now in your head?
01:51:18 I don't again what happened to the world is not important to me what happens in your head is
01:51:23 Right. Absolutely not
01:51:26 If you're going to like, you know, if you're going to quit drinking you can't be around a bunch of alcoholics
01:51:31 Right, and if you're going to start taking responsibility, you can't be around people again
01:51:37 Whether it's physical or not doesn't matter, but you can't be around people who don't take responsibility
01:51:41 If you want to take responsibility and you do
01:51:44 If you can't hold your parents to account how on earth can you hold yourself to account
01:51:51 Right. I don't know how to put the distance between those relationships
01:51:55 Well, I don't know either you could certainly say, uh, you know, man
01:52:01 I i've really got to take i'm taking a break from all my relationships just to focus on my marriage
01:52:06 You know i'll be back in touch i just i've really got to sort this out I get I don't know what you should or shouldn't do but that's
01:52:12 Certainly a possibility they say no. No, we want to help and it's like yeah, I appreciate that
01:52:16 But you know everything i've been doing hasn't been working
01:52:19 I just need to take a different approach and I just have to put everything
01:52:23 Into my marriage look
01:52:25 I mean if you had if you had a pickup game of football every weekend and it was interfering with your marriage you'd say to you
01:52:30 You know your wife was mad and she was overwhelmed
01:52:34 And writing three new babies in the house or something, right?
01:52:36 And you'd say to your your football buddies you'd say hey, man
01:52:39 I gotta take a break from the football because you know, I gotta focus on on my marriage
01:52:43 My wife's kind, you know, we got three babies at home
01:52:46 Do you know what I mean?
01:52:46 Like you would say that right and your buddies wouldn't be like hey, man, that's rude. That's bad
01:52:50 That's like to be like hey, man, we understand, you know, like go go deal with your marriage. We'll be here
01:52:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah
01:52:58 Yeah, that's a good point
01:53:03 I
01:53:05 Mean the one thing you know is that all of your relationships
01:53:12 have not prevented this crisis from
01:53:16 Right hitting the way that it has right, right and that means everyone
01:53:21 Is a participant in this disaster, right? You your wife her parents your parents
01:53:27 Extended relatives friends. Whoever is not you said that there's one pastor that you have a good relationship with
01:53:33 So everyone who's not treating this as the emergency that it is
01:53:36 Is a participant in the pileup
01:53:41 We we have kept it relatively, uh secret. She has not told her parents I have told
01:53:47 my parents
01:53:49 um
01:53:51 Uh, there have been a couple of people at work and they're like, they're very supportive
01:53:56 I mean in supportive of like, you know trying to save the marriage and everything
01:53:59 but you know, they haven't like
01:54:03 Yeah, yeah, well I mean
01:54:05 But her parents should know
01:54:08 You right. She she has not told them. No, she no, no, but she shouldn't listen. You're a parent. I'm a parent
01:54:14 Right, you know when you're upset, right? You know when your kids are happy, you know when your kids are unhappy
01:54:19 You know when your kid comes home from school before they say anything, you know
01:54:22 Whether they've had a good or a bad day, right?
01:54:24 Right, right, right. So this idea like she hasn't told them and therefore they don't know that's willful ignorance
01:54:31 Right and the fact that they have zero idea if it's true that they have zero idea how their daughter's marriage is going
01:54:38 I don't even know what to say
01:54:41 How is that even remotely possible?
01:54:43 their relationship is
01:54:46 Probably along the lines of the level of disastrousness of my parents. So
01:54:50 right, so
01:54:53 She's not telling them because they would only add stress to the situation I assume right
01:55:00 Yeah, I would I would guess that they would probably uh say
01:55:03 You know for for her to leave me
01:55:08 um
01:55:11 Yeah, they they would I do not they would not be supportive of it, okay
01:55:16 so
01:55:18 They're not helping either. Yeah. Yeah
01:55:20 In fact, she has to put she's funny thing because she probably gets mad at you for putting on a fake smile when the world
01:55:26 Is falling apart, right?
01:55:28 Yeah, i'm sure she does that with her parents, too
01:55:31 Yeah, and i'm sure you don't respect that either because you're looking at her saying well, wait a minute
01:55:35 You could be totally nice to your parents, but you're calling me every name in the book or whatever, right?
01:55:39 Right, right, right. So it's the same thing for both sides. You're both seeing each other
01:55:44 Act the best to the people who've harmed you the most and at the worst to the people you chose
01:55:49 Right, right, right
01:55:52 Yeah
01:55:55 You know the don't shit where you live man the people you live with
01:55:58 They're the people who should absolutely always and forever get your very best
01:56:02 time attention and consideration
01:56:05 Yeah, not strangers not people from the past not parents not waiters not
01:56:09 Whoever teaches yeah
01:56:13 And we all know that it just seems to be hard to put that into practice
01:56:19 Yeah
01:56:25 You
01:56:27 But yeah, I mean
01:56:29 I don't claim any intimate relation, but jesus has got to be weeping about what's happening to these kids. Oh, yeah, absolutely
01:56:35 Yeah, it's uh, and that is on you and that's on your soul
01:56:38 Yeah
01:56:41 Absolutely, if uh, if you were me
01:56:43 Um
01:56:48 Every time we've tried to sit down with the kids and say hey guys, we're gonna work on it
01:56:52 We're gonna make it like we're gonna try to figure something out
01:56:54 Um, they're like, oh, please god. No, please just just stop
01:56:58 um
01:56:59 You're you're me you walk into
01:57:02 Uh the house tomorrow at the end of the guard shifts
01:57:06 um
01:57:09 Knowing that things are somewhat stable only because i'm not there
01:57:12 Um, what would you recommend?
01:57:15 I wouldn't I wouldn't say I wouldn't say a damn thing to the kids
01:57:20 Unless I had at least three months of good behavior under my belt
01:57:23 Okay
01:57:26 Right. I mean if like you're not but if you were an alcoholic and you had
01:57:30 Promised your kids you even quit drinking 20 times before but you just kept kept back drinking again
01:57:35 Right, right. Then of course you wouldn't tell them because it would just be cynical, right?
01:57:40 Right, you would stop drinking and then after a couple of months if not drinking
01:57:46 Oh, they'd probably bring it up, right?
01:57:47 But if they didn't you'd say oh you might have noticed by the way, right a couple of months ago. I quit drinking
01:57:52 I'm, really really sorry about all of this and then you can talk about it
01:57:55 And they won't be rolling their eyes like i've heard this 20 times before. Right, right, right
01:58:00 Yeah, excellent point
01:58:03 Excellent point
01:58:05 Well, so, uh, but then they walk around each day and they're like hey what's going on with your mom and with your mom's relationship
01:58:15 Uh, well, I mean my response to that would be it should never have been your job to know there were any problems
01:58:21 Right. I'm, really sorry that you guys got caught in the crossfire. It's inexcusable. It should never have happened
01:58:27 You know for what it's worth
01:58:29 My mom dumped her relationship problems on me and I was aware of them and I hated that and I did the same thing
01:58:34 And i'm ashamed of that was the wrong thing to do
01:58:36 We're working on it. I don't want to
01:58:39 get into details because
01:58:43 We're working on it and
01:58:45 It's not your job. Your job is to be a kid and
01:58:47 Right. Enjoy your child. Enjoy your life. Not to worry about mom and I but we're working on it and we
01:58:53 We're committed to each other and we're getting good advice and we're trying to make everything right
01:58:58 But yeah, please don't don't make this your your consideration
01:59:01 It's it's our job any more than you should worry about the bills or the taxes or whatever, right? Right, right. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent
01:59:11 Yes, yeah, but just treat your wife like you would treat a stranger
01:59:17 Right, you you could be perfectly nice to a stranger listen i've said some relatively harsh things you're not popping off on me, right
01:59:25 Right. So treat her like a stranger. I know that sounds odd, right but strangers get better behavior
01:59:32 right, right
01:59:34 when they I mean
01:59:36 Everybody should but like again, why are you like what you're saying?
01:59:40 Like why are you dishing it out to the one who loves you the most?
01:59:44 And you're giving the worst
01:59:46 That you got to them, you know, and they you shouldn't be doing that. That's just
01:59:50 Well, I mean you can be nice and if you are going to be nice
01:59:55 Be nice to the people
01:59:58 Who you have to spend the rest of your life with and you chose to have children with
02:00:00 Yeah
02:00:03 But you can do it
02:00:05 So do it. I mean, I know easier said than done, but I mean you do it easily every day
02:00:10 I mean you have a fight with your wife you go to the grocery store and you probably make jokes with the cashier
02:00:15 Right
02:00:17 So you can yeah
02:00:18 you can let go of your temper and you can be positive and engaging and funny and warm and
02:00:22 you can do all of that stuff, so just
02:00:25 Do it with her
02:00:26 now that does mean overcoming resentment and bitterness and all of that, but you know, that's
02:00:33 That's the godly way, isn't it right? Yeah
02:00:36 To commit to virtue though it hurts like hell. Yeah
02:00:42 Well, it's yeah
02:00:45 I keeps it. Well, she doesn't piss me off then i'll be yeah. Yeah, no excuses. Yeah, the no excuses thing is like I don't
02:00:52 Yes, she's going to piss you off. So what you piss her off, but it doesn't give you an excuse of bad behavior
02:00:58 That's like, you know, it's like the old joke. I could resist everything except temptation
02:01:02 Right, it's like well, it's it's a it's only a virtue
02:01:06 If you're tempted, right?
02:01:08 Right. I'm not tempted to become a ballerina, right? I mean, it's only a virtue if you're tempted. So the fact that it's hard
02:01:14 Sometimes if she's pushing your buttons to stay calm, well, that's exactly why it's a virtue
02:01:19 It's pretty hard to forgive people who've just nailed you to a cross, but that's kind of the thing, right?
02:01:24 Right, right, right
02:01:26 Yeah, yeah
02:01:30 And you know, I mean usually what happens is if somebody's pushing your buttons and you feel that temper rise
02:01:34 And you don't act it out. You're probably just gonna end up bawling
02:01:37 Honestly, like I mean there's that level of vulnerability underneath all of that that level of sadness and rejection and pain and yeah
02:01:43 And and that's that's what connects people. Yeah. Yeah
02:01:47 Um
02:01:52 In addition to the things that you've said, uh
02:01:58 Um
02:02:00 For my wife
02:02:02 I
02:02:05 Hope this is not coming across as shifting blame
02:02:10 I
02:02:14 I feel very
02:02:20 I feel terrible for all the things that i've done for
02:02:23 Or that i've that i've said and done
02:02:28 to her
02:02:30 um
02:02:32 You know
02:02:35 How do I help support her
02:02:39 In building her confidence so
02:02:43 Say for instance, you know if a woman
02:02:46 Looks in the mirror and says oh I look fat or I look ugly or something and you say no you don't
02:02:51 And they say oh, yes, I do or whatever, you know, and it doesn't matter how many times you compliment them. They they don't
02:02:58 Feel that they don't believe that and so let's just tell me more tell you you feel fat tell me more
02:03:02 What is it you dislike or who are you comparing yourself to or you know, just be curious. You don't take it personally
02:03:08 It's not something you have to fix. She feels fat. I mean, don't you ever have that you're just like oh, man
02:03:13 I I thought I could fit into these pants every now or whatever right you or you've just looked at some gymnast
02:03:18 And you're like, holy crap. I got some muffin top, right? So is she just feeling fat?
02:03:23 It's not it's not a thing for you to fix. You're not her
02:03:26 Parents or whatever and oh, no, you look great. No, it's like oh tell me more
02:03:30 Oh, when did you think that or have you felt that or you know, it's not it's not a problem
02:03:34 You just be curious about it, right? Right, right, right
02:03:36 well, um, I feel
02:03:39 It's
02:03:43 I feel bad because I I you know, I tell her like oh no, you do it beautiful you do and then later on
02:03:50 It's well, you're looking at other women. You don't think i'm attractive
02:03:55 Tell me no, no, no then you engage like it's a real thing
02:03:58 right
02:04:00 You know, like if if uh, if you're playing
02:04:02 dinosaurs with your kids and they say oh look, there's a stegosaurus you look over and say
02:04:07 oh my god and scoop the kids up and run to the car and and call animal control and no because they're just it's just
02:04:14 Imagination, right? So she's she's picturing herself as fat or ugly. It's like oh tell me more, right?
02:04:21 Right. Oh, well you think this and you know, that's I I didn't call you fat. So just tell me what you're thinking about
02:04:26 I mean, yeah, you feel unattractive do you feel and the other thing too is you know, if you want to help her with her confidence
02:04:32 Maybe stop tearing her down, you know verbally, right? Right. Absolutely. Yeah. No, that that's definitely uh,
02:04:38 The the equation there. Yeah
02:04:42 Yeah, that's uh, yeah. I mean if I go burn someone's house down, I don't get and say well
02:04:46 How do I help them maintain their house? It's like well, maybe don't burn it down
02:04:50 Right, right, right, right, right
02:04:52 Yeah, that's that goes back to the the ceo taking credit for when the business is good and when it's not it's everybody else's fault
02:05:00 Yeah, if she says I feel ugly it's like oh tell me more or you know, I feel unattractive. Oh, i'm
02:05:06 Curious what you what you mean by that and you know, yeah more right and yeah
02:05:11 Yeah, yeah because I because I want
02:05:14 uh
02:05:17 the simultaneous hypocrisy of my statements right now of of
02:05:21 Uh, I want her to feel attractive. I want her to feel loved and then I said all this
02:05:26 Terrible horrible things in the past to her
02:05:30 and uh
02:05:32 If she says I feel unattractive you can also say yeah
02:05:35 Well, i've said some things that were really bad and i'm that did not help and i'm for that i'm very sorry
02:05:39 Yeah
02:05:41 Yep, absolutely, correct
02:05:46 Absolutely, correct
02:05:48 All right
02:05:53 I owe her one hell of an apology
02:05:55 Well, and I think that's important but before the apology you just need to behave better because otherwise you apologize
02:06:01 And then you end up in another fight like just work to not react work to be curious
02:06:05 Work to be vulnerable work to be open work to be direct. Don't manipulate if you hate the fight say I hate the fight
02:06:11 you know and
02:06:13 just be direct and then
02:06:16 After a certain amount of time where she's grown to trust you because you've been more consistent
02:06:20 then I think you can apologize and it won't be
02:06:23 Perceived as manipulative because there's already been a big change, right? Right, right, right, right. Okay. Okay. Excellent point
02:06:31 Excellent. And of course if she wants to talk i'm, you know, obviously would be be happy to help. I mean this is uh,
02:06:36 um
02:06:37 I mean, I care about you guys, of course
02:06:38 But I also think of these these kids and whatever can be done, especially the four-year-old younger ones as a whole
02:06:43 Whatever. Yeah, all right, brother
02:06:45 well, listen, I got to I did cough off a chunk a day from a chunk of time from today, but i'm really glad we had a
02:06:51 chance to talk and
02:06:53 Uh, I I gosh I I absolutely cross my fingers and wish you guys
02:06:56 The very best in uh, what's going on?
02:06:59 Thank you stefan god bless you thank you so much for for your
02:07:04 your
02:07:07 Pinpoint insight and your ability to to just break these things down. Um
02:07:12 Thank you so much. You're welcome, man. Keep me posted about how it's going and I certainly wish you all the very best
02:07:17 Thank you. Stefan. Take care. Take care brother. Bye