Graham Falk is joined by Edinburgh Evening News women's sport writer Jack Dawson to discuss the contrasting emotions of last night's 6-0 win for the Lionesses over Scotland. How good was it to see Beth Mead back? Despite the last minute heartbreak, are England back to their best? Has time ran out for Pedro Martinez Losa after a horrific Nations League campaign? All that and loads more.
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00:00 [Whistle]
00:01 [Music]
00:04 Hello and welcome back to National World's WSL Show.
00:08 My name is Graeme Falk, I'm a writer here for the Scotsman and National World
00:12 and today I'm joined by my co-host, Edinburgh Evening News' Jack Dawson
00:16 for a WSL Show debut.
00:19 Tons to get through but first and foremost, the most important thing, Jack.
00:22 Yeah, I'm great, I'm great. How are you, Graeme?
00:24 Getting by. It was a bit of a late one last night, wasn't it?
00:28 We're going to obviously get into the game but I'm not sure what time you left Hamden last night
00:32 but I think I was about 11 o'clock. How late were you?
00:34 Yeah, it was just after that. It was probably about 11.30.
00:37 It's obviously a long drive back to Edinburgh after that but got there in the end.
00:43 I was very lucky in the sense that I can pretty much, if I jump high enough
00:50 I could probably land in Hamden or land back home from Hamden so I live very close.
00:53 So you had the extra hour on top but look, it was a chaotic night, let's be honest,
00:58 in many different ways and we're going to look at it from an England perspective
01:01 and also from a Scotland perspective but for those who aren't aware,
01:04 which I'm sure you are, England thrashed Scotland 6-0 but were still denied a place
01:08 at the top of the Nations League after the Netherlands scored not one but two injury time goals.
01:13 So heartbreak for England there because obviously it means a lot of them will be part of Team GB
01:18 going to the Olympics and heartbreak for Scotland doubly I guess because it's not even
01:22 the crumb of comfort that some of them might get in that squad although I'm pretty certain
01:26 none of them cared about Team GB at the end of that final whistle.
01:29 But tons of disgust but I'll ask a really straightforward question, Jack.
01:33 What did you make of the game from just a neutral perspective I suppose?
01:36 Well, I mean it was certainly entertaining from a neutral perspective. Six goals.
01:42 England just seemed to carve through Scotland in the end and I mean it's just fair play
01:49 coming to a place like Hamden and knowing you've got a job to do and coming so close to doing it.
01:56 It took a last-minute goal from the Dutch to eventually see them go through.
02:01 I mean it's exactly what England would have hoped to happen if you didn't get a bit of bad luck
02:08 at the end going on with the Netherlands but yeah, I mean some of the goals were great as well.
02:14 Like Lauren James' second and England's third was just great to watch especially after,
02:20 well a minute after she scored the previous one.
02:23 And yeah, England were just absolutely phenomenal really and it wasn't as much as Scotland being
02:32 not on it but just England especially after Lauren James got her first and England second.
02:39 They just absolutely ran the show then and it was nice to see from an England perspective
02:47 but probably not so good if you're sitting in the sands of Hamden watching on Scotland.
02:53 You know what I mean?
02:55 Not at all and I think, look, we're going to be discussing Scotland in the second part of the show
03:00 because there is that conversation to be had as well and I think there'll be a lot of Scotland fans
03:05 listening here saying, you know, England were great but God, Scotland were terrible.
03:10 I actually agree with you a little bit.
03:12 I think it was maybe a little bit in the middle of Scotland were below par
03:17 but England were phenomenal last night but I think Scotland will also be incredibly frustrated
03:23 that they pushed them so hard at the Stadium Light on the back of them getting into the World Cup final.
03:27 I know there's caveats to that and how quick the game came around and stuff like that
03:31 but if Scotland were simply not at it, England were really at it and Lauren James in particular.
03:38 I mean, for me at the moment, the most on form player in the WSL,
03:42 arguably the world in some ways in the way that she's playing and she does it so effortlessly.
03:46 It just makes it look even better but look, ultimately, disappointment for England, Jack.
03:54 We chatted to Serena Vigeman and Niamh Charles in the aftermath of the game
03:57 and they were obviously gutted, especially Niamh and Esme as well.
04:02 But I think they were immensely proud of what they'd achieved in the context of just the one game
04:07 and the fact that they got so close and when you talk small margins,
04:10 this is the smallest of small margins you could ever possibly get.
04:13 What have you made of England over the past two games?
04:16 Because there was a couple of question marks coming in after that defeat against Belgium
04:19 but nine goals, two big wins and literally, what, 30 seconds from top of the group?
04:26 I mean, I think it's just highly unlucky at the end of the day.
04:30 Like you said, they had a bad result against Belgium and they knew what they had to do coming into it
04:35 and when they were 2-0 down against the Dutch, it looked like it would be over
04:41 and they somehow managed to turn that around.
04:43 They showed the passion and the fight that they needed to take it to the last game
04:48 against Scotland's biggest England derby, many would argue,
04:53 and they ran the show and it looked like they'd had it for large periods of the game
04:59 and like you say, it's the smallest of the margins, a last second goal which eventually cursed them
05:06 and if you would have told a lot of England fans and England players after, you know,
05:13 after their 2-0 down against the Dutch that they would have took it to the last second
05:18 at the last game, you know, some of them might have looked at it like, I'm not sure,
05:24 but they did it and it's something they can be proud of, I think, especially because, you know,
05:33 there's not many times you'll get undone by, I mean, there's not many times you'll win 6-0
05:38 and not progress, you know what I mean?
05:41 So they can certainly be proud and, you know, it's a tournament where it's not the result
05:48 they wanted at the end of the day in terms of not going through, but there's not many times
05:54 you can come away from a 6-0 win and play as good as you do and feel disheartened
06:00 at the overall stages.
06:05 So, yeah, I think that in hindsight, they can look back and be proud of what they
06:13 almost achieved in a way, you know what I mean?
06:17 - Absolutely.
06:20 I think you wanted to discuss a little bit about the games in general, Jack, but is there
06:25 any sort of things that were playing on your mind, anything that, you know, you've taken out
06:29 of those games as well that you maybe wanted to fire at me so I can hear the sound of my own voice again?
06:34 Obviously Beth Mead made a comeback to the England squad to her first start and she ended up
06:39 getting amongst the goals as well.
06:40 What did you make of her appearance?
06:45 - I'm a huge fan of Beth Mead.
06:46 I think I've touched on this before.
06:48 You know, one of the first players I watched was Beth Mead because I'm from Sunderland.
06:52 The first women's team I watched was Sunderland and Beth was the number nine up front.
06:56 And so I've got a lot of affection for Beth Mead as a fan.
06:59 She's been a great person in my experience to interview and chat to and someone with a real fire
07:06 and a real talent and a real ability to lift England as a national team as she did during the Euros.
07:12 Not like it was just Beth Mead that won the game, won the tournament, sorry, but she had a big part
07:18 to play in it and I think we've seen what sort of a fit and fire in Beth Mead can do.
07:22 I think I was actually surprised by how good she was.
07:25 I know she's been back for a few months for Arsenal and just started playing games again for Arsenal,
07:30 but she looks like Beth Mead of a year ago before the ACL injury, like just came straight back.
07:35 And I think there's a lot of discussion around the physical aspects of coming back from an ACL injury.
07:41 There's tons of mental aspects of it.
07:43 And I think credit to Beth last night and the performance she put in second half against the Dutch.
07:50 She does not look affected by much.
07:52 I'm sure she has been, but for me, second in the Ballon d'Or the year before.
07:58 Obviously, she can't take part in the awards this season because of the fact that she got injured,
08:04 but one of the best players in the world.
08:06 And for me, I'm sure Chelsea fans might disagree with me here and say Lauren James,
08:10 but for me, Beth Mead's England's most important player.
08:13 And for women's football, just great to see her back, although I think Scotland might disagree.
08:17 Yeah, I know. Like you say, it was a phenomenal performance.
08:21 And another player you touched on earlier in the show was Lauren James.
08:25 She got amongst the goals as well, another two.
08:28 What did you make of her running the show at Hamden?
08:31 I just love how she plays.
08:37 There's points when I just think, 'Oh, she's not going to get to that,' or 'She just missed that.'
08:40 And then she's four yards in front of a right back, a left back or whoever's marking her.
08:45 I mean, her second goal, England's third, it's just...
08:50 It just looks so effortless, but it obviously isn't,
08:53 because you can't just ping 25-yard shots past Lee Gibson.
08:57 I mean, look, Lee Gibson, yeah, look.
09:00 Plays for Glasgow City, someone I know really well.
09:02 Fantastic professional, fantastic player.
09:05 Really a person on the Scotland squad that sets really high standards.
09:09 Difficult to beat. Comes up in the big moments for both club and country.
09:13 But there's just nothing you can do with quality like that.
09:16 And I think, you know, at the minute, as much as I think Beth Mead's England's most important,
09:21 you can't say that Lauren James at the moment is not the most informed player,
09:25 potentially, on the planet in the way that she's playing.
09:27 I mean, I'm sure there'll be people in Barcelona that might disagree with me on that one.
09:31 But look, she's scoring two, three goals on a weekly basis, international level and also for club.
09:37 I think she could go on to become the world's best player within a couple of years.
09:42 She's been informed for a while, but that form's now beginning to become the norm.
09:47 And that's absolutely terrifying for anyone that's not Lauren James or Chelsea or England.
09:51 Like you say, she just makes everything look so easy at the moment.
09:56 Like her second goal, as you touched on there, she just kind of lined it up,
10:01 knocked it in the top corner and just walked off like it was nothing.
10:05 But yeah, the way she hit it as well, though, Jack, as well, when she hit it,
10:10 there's power behind that and there's precision and everything that goes behind it.
10:15 But when you watched it, it was almost like you went, I know what she's going to do.
10:18 She's going to curl it in the top right-hand corner, but no one could do anything about it.
10:21 And that's the scary part. You can see what's coming, but how do you stop it?
10:25 I mean, Emma Hayes might have the answer, but she's going to keep that one in training, isn't she?
10:31 I think there was one point where Aaron Cusper absolutely took her out.
10:35 And I think that's potentially the only way you can stop her, just foul.
10:38 She's too strong. She's too fast. She's too clever with her work.
10:42 She's too clever with her feet. And she's just, what is she, 21, 22?
10:46 It's like she knows what she wants to do, even before she's touched the ball,
10:51 even before they've given it to her.
10:53 She already knows what she's going to do, where she's going to put the ball.
10:56 And when she's on form like that, like Scotland, they don't stand a chance.
11:03 They don't stand a chance.
11:05 And it was magnificent to see at times, a real price on the eyes to just see her
11:15 just strut about the pitch, knowing what she's going to do and just controlling the game.
11:20 I think when you look at that second goal as well, the reaction from the crowd was like,
11:28 "Ah, what do you do with it?"
11:30 But we will get into Scotland because there'll be Scotland fans going,
11:34 "Yeah, it's great as it always was. We got beat 6-0. We want some questions asked as well."
11:37 So we're going to take a wee break.
11:39 We're going to come back with some questions around Scotland,
11:42 maybe touch a little bit more on England and the performance last night
11:45 and what it means in terms of the fact that they still didn't qualify.
11:48 [Whistle]
11:49 [Whistle]
12:02 Welcome back to the Women's Super League show for part two of our Nations League special,
12:10 shall we say, covering England-Scotland, which of course myself and Jack were at last night,
12:14 where England won by six goals to nil.
12:17 We covered a lot of the brilliant performances from the line-esses
12:21 and what the result would have meant for them,
12:24 considering that they got knocked out with the latest of late goals because of Netherlands.
12:28 But as always, there's another team on the opposite side of that brilliant performance from England,
12:33 which I think if you're Scottish, you're going to be incredibly frustrated
12:37 and potentially humiliated by the performance last night.
12:40 I think, Jack, I've covered Scotland throughout the campaign.
12:44 I think people will know I'm an England fan that covers an awful lot of Scotland,
12:48 so a bit of a mixed bag for me here this one.
12:50 But it's been a really disappointing campaign for me.
12:54 It started off really brightly with that sort of narrow two-one loss to England,
12:57 which actually ended it a six-game unbeaten run for Scotland,
13:01 which had included wins over Australia, big wins over Costa Rica,
13:04 I think it would be Finland within that as well.
13:06 And it looked like maybe things were starting to click with Pedro Martinez Losa
13:10 because there was questions before that, the defeat at the Republic of Ireland.
13:13 But I think now that we can sit and assess what has happened with Scotland in those six games,
13:18 we've got three goals, tonnes conceded, no wins and only two draws,
13:23 both one of them being at like a last gasp draw against Belgium at Hampden Park.
13:30 It's been disappointing.
13:31 But how do you think Scotland are going to be looking back over this campaign as a whole?
13:34 Have they regressed, do you think, from the beginning of 2020?
13:37 Yeah, I think it's clear to see after that game against England that the campaign overall will just,
13:45 you know, it's not what they wanted at all.
13:48 I mean, to come bottom of the group, they want to be in this group, in the Nations League,
13:54 and they've obviously been relegated now.
13:57 And going into the England game, they're obviously not playing for anything but pride.
14:03 And as much as people will argue about the conflict of interest going into the game
14:08 and all that with the Olympics, Scotland wanted to win that game.
14:11 There's no question about it.
14:13 They wanted to win that game.
14:14 And at the end of the day, it was over at half time.
14:18 You could argue it was over before half time.
14:20 As soon as the second goal went in, Scotland just seemed to stop playing almost.
14:26 And they only really started playing again when it went 5-0.
14:31 And at that point, the game's over and there's just no point.
14:36 So, yeah, it's probably one of the most disappointing campaigns and results
14:43 Scotland could have imagined coming into it, to not win a game.
14:47 And to just go from narrowly losing to England away in Sunderland
14:53 and arguably deserving a point of just being played off the park by the end of it,
14:58 I think it's hard to say that they haven't regressed.
15:02 It almost seemed like they were just all over the place at the back.
15:08 And England were just carving through them like hot knife with butter towards the end.
15:13 I mean, even when England knew they needed a sixth, it took all but a couple of minutes
15:19 for Lucy Bronze to get the sixth.
15:22 It was that easy for them at the end of the day.
15:24 So, yeah, I'm sure they're frustrated and some of them might even be embarrassed
15:31 to lose 6-0 to England at Hampden.
15:34 And it's going to take real grit to bounce back from this.
15:38 And I'm sure they will because they showed at the start of the year,
15:43 like with wins over Australia, like you mentioned, that they're clearly good enough
15:47 to compete, they've got a good team, and they just need to get out of this
15:51 bad run of form and bounce back properly.
15:57 I did want to ask about that because there was a lot of discussion around,
16:00 and we've discussed England's quality, and I think there's no doubt that England
16:04 are a better team on paper than Scotland.
16:06 Without a doubt, I think exactly the same with the Netherlands,
16:09 and you could argue that I think Belgium are a better team as well.
16:13 But I also think it's a little bit overplayed how, quote, unquote,
16:19 how much lack of quality Scotland have.
16:23 There's been dealt a really big blow with the injury at Caroline Weir.
16:25 I think there's no doubt in that, Caroline, in terms of what she brings to Scotland
16:29 and Real Madrid.
16:30 She's one of the world's best players.
16:32 I was really surprised she wasn't in the Ballon d'Or list.
16:34 So she's obviously a massive miss.
16:35 And Emma Watson, you could say, is arguably their most promising young player
16:40 and was showing some real form and was playing every single game
16:44 before her ACL injury.
16:46 So there's two massive blows there, and I'm not going to discount that.
16:48 And I know those-- well, Caroline played the sort of opening game
16:52 against England in the first sort of 15, 20 minutes against Belgium
16:55 and has been absent since then.
16:56 And Emma's been out for the entire tournament.
16:58 But when you look at the quality Scotland have, and a lot of people say
17:02 that the quality is just not there, but I would beg to differ with that.
17:04 I think you've got-- Erin Cuthbert is arguably one of the best players in the WSL
17:09 and a real sort of powerhouse in the midfield, can play all over the shop,
17:15 world-class player, in my opinion.
17:16 There's a reason that she plays on Chelsea's team every single week
17:19 alongside the likes of Lauren James.
17:21 And then you've got Kirsty Hansen, who was obviously a WSL nominee
17:25 for Player of the Year last year.
17:26 And Kirsty is one of the most exciting, most assistful players
17:31 over the past year in the WSL.
17:33 And then you look at sort of other players within that squad.
17:36 You've got Jenna Clarke, who's doing incredibly well for Liverpool
17:38 at centre-half.
17:39 Yes, she's very young.
17:40 Yes, there's things to learn and grow from.
17:42 But alongside her, you've got the likes of Rachel Corsi,
17:44 who's playing weekly for Aston Villa.
17:47 On top of that, you've got Martha Thomas, who I think, correct me if I'm wrong,
17:51 is still the WSL's top scorer.
17:52 So I think to say that Scotland don't have the quality to not get beat 6-0
17:57 by England and get hammered off Holland and not even get a win
17:59 or even get close to getting a win, which they haven't been,
18:02 in these six games is maybe a little bit overplayed.
18:05 So when you read through that quality and you look at that sort of quality,
18:08 you do begin to pinpoint where is the problem in there.
18:11 Is it set-up, is it formation?
18:12 And everything goes back to the manager when it comes to poor performances
18:18 and poor results.
18:19 Now, Pedro Martinez has been there since 2021.
18:22 It's quite obvious the style that he wants to play.
18:24 He wants to bring that possession-based style.
18:27 But with two years down the line now, he's lost against Republic of Ireland
18:31 to not qualify for the World Cup, and that was poor.
18:35 He did say yesterday he feels that he's the right man to take Scotland
18:39 to major tournaments.
18:42 He used the example of beating Australia, and he used the example
18:44 of beating Austria.
18:47 But Australia was over six months ago, and Austria is well over a year ago.
18:53 I've had many interactions with Pedro, and I'm a real big fan of him as a person.
18:57 Very, very warm, very, very intelligent, and a very, very nice man.
19:01 However, football is football, and the result's not going right on the pitch.
19:05 I don't know if you agree with me on this, but there's a lot of fans
19:08 saying the same thing.
19:09 Is it finally time for Scotland to maybe move past Pedro?
19:12 Is the time up?
19:14 I think he's certainly going to be feeling the pressure now.
19:16 I think you cannot lose 6-0 to England and not feel pressure.
19:22 There was 15,000 fans at Hampden, second highest for a Scotland women's game
19:30 at the stadium, and they've just witnessed the team get played off the park.
19:34 If you're sitting there as a Scotland fan, knowing, like you said,
19:38 they didn't qualify for the World Cup, they lost to Ireland,
19:42 they've just got relegated from the Nations League, didn't get a win,
19:45 and you've just been played off the park by England,
19:48 you're going to be feeling the pressure.
19:50 I think time might well be up for him now.
19:54 Like you said, there's plenty of quality in that squad.
19:59 To not really give the game a go I think would be the most disappointing thing
20:05 because to be over at half-time, it's just like – can you really defend that
20:13 in a way that it was over?
20:15 Like you heard him say after the game he was thinking about making changes
20:20 before half-time.
20:22 So if you're thinking about that, then you've got the team wrong,
20:26 and if you've got the team wrong, it's never going to end well.
20:32 So I think it's two failed campaigns now ultimately,
20:37 and you'd be lucky to come out of that surviving with a job
20:43 because Scotland should be getting to tournaments,
20:46 and they should be competing in those tournaments with the quality they have.
20:51 Ultimately, at the end of the day, they haven't done that,
20:55 and that's just the line of it at the end of the day.
20:58 It's all right competing against Australia and almost getting a draw against England,
21:06 but at the end of the day, if you're not getting the results that get you
21:09 to the tournament and getting the wins on the board in the Nations League,
21:13 that's just it unfortunately.
21:17 I think, like I say, he'll really be feeling the pressure,
21:20 and he'll be hoping he comes out of it with his job still intact,
21:25 but we'll have to wait and see I suppose.
21:30 Yeah, I think I've covered Scotland throughout this Nations League tournament
21:34 and pretty much since they didn't get to the World Cup,
21:37 and I'll repeat till Kingdom come, he's one of the loveliest men
21:40 that I've ever met, but the results are just not there at the moment,
21:43 and I think we started this campaign with a lot of discussion surrounding Scotland
21:48 being able to compete with bigger nations, not necessarily beat them,
21:51 but I think you targeted two wins.
21:53 I think you could look at maybe one against Belgium and then a shock result elsewhere
21:57 or maybe beating Belgium twice or something like that,
21:59 and it seemed like a reasonable thing to aim for on the back of a six game
22:03 on beating Rwanda, beating Australia.
22:05 They'd previously shown they could beat Austria, and yeah,
22:07 their Republic of Ireland game was absolutely dreadful,
22:10 but it was beginning to become more of like that was the anomaly rather than the norm,
22:16 but I think you look at this tournament and the Nations League,
22:20 yes, the teams I think are better than them, and yes, they've had their injury issues,
22:24 but my big concern, which my concern was there before the England game in fact,
22:29 is I don't really understand the style.
22:31 I don't really understand the plan, and they look like a team devoid of identity,
22:36 and I think when you look through the amount of players that they have
22:39 within the squad, which you mentioned before, that should be competing
22:42 at a higher level, big WSL players, very good players.
22:46 Scotland should be at least getting closer than getting hammered off Netherlands
22:50 and hammered off England, and he said last night, you know, we want,
22:55 he said we want resource and investment, and we need to look at why countries
23:01 like Switzerland, Portugal, and Belgium are performing where they are
23:05 when they're so close to us in the rankings, which is a far change
23:10 from the start of this Nations League tournament of I think we're getting close
23:13 to competing with the big nations, so you have to wonder why that's changed
23:17 in his mindset and why he felt they were close two, three months ago,
23:21 and now they are at a point where he wants to see what's happening in Switzerland.
23:25 But, you know, good luck to him, because I really would like to see him succeed,
23:29 and I'd really like to see Scotland succeed, but of course the questions are there.
23:33 But that's pretty much all we've got for today.
23:35 Jack, thanks very much for joining me for the first time.
23:37 It's a great debut.
23:38 Thank you. Thank you for having me.
23:40 [Music]