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00:50 Hello, and welcome to NDTV Profit.
00:57 You're watching the Portfolio Manager.
00:59 My guest today is Vineet Arora, who
01:01 is the Managing Director and Head of Investments,
01:04 Asset Management at Nav Capital, based out of Dubai.
01:07 Nav Capital is a fund house, which
01:10 is in the Dubai International Finance Center.
01:13 It has two funds, which are registered with the Singapore
01:16 Monetary Authority of Singapore.
01:18 And it invests in some of the small cap, micro cap,
01:22 and mid cap companies in India.
01:25 Vineet, thank you very much for joining us on NDTV Profit.
01:30 My first question to you is that a large chunk
01:33 of your portfolio, you have been focusing
01:36 on investing in some of the small and micro caps,
01:40 especially if I see you're one of the largest anchor
01:42 investors for some of the SME platforms,
01:46 companies listing on that.
01:48 My first question to you is that, how
01:50 do you go about selecting stocks in these small and micro caps?
01:56 Thank you, Sajid.
01:57 Thank you for having me on the show.
01:58 And good morning, everyone.
02:00 So we've been focusing on SME sector,
02:03 largely riding on the India growth story.
02:07 Of course, the selection involves a lot of travel.
02:10 As I said, I spend about two weeks a month in India.
02:14 And so do my two of my analysts, who
02:16 extensively traveled across the country length and breadth.
02:19 We largely focus on tier two cities,
02:22 because that's where you find most of the SME companies
02:25 doing well.
02:26 Good hub for us has been Pune, Maharashtra, Ahmedabad,
02:31 or cities around that.
02:33 Some in north, some down south, a couple of them in Calcutta.
02:38 So key is literally actually meeting these companies,
02:42 understanding the business model,
02:44 understanding the promoters, because balance sheets
02:47 get made at 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 crores.
02:51 At this point, you're looking at companies who've never
02:53 had access to capital.
02:55 You're infusing them with capital
02:57 to take them to the next level of growth.
02:59 So apart from businesses and the promoters,
03:02 it's literally the family or the people
03:05 who are running the business that's very, very important
03:07 that we look at.
03:09 And a lot of companies we met long before the IPO process.
03:15 So sometimes we invest pre-IPO, and we see the journey,
03:18 how they're performing.
03:20 It's a continuous engagement, because data points
03:23 are very, very sparse and scarce.
03:26 I'm not sure of the data, but you rely a lot
03:28 on what you see on the ground yourself.
03:31 That involves a large part of the selection process.
03:36 Of course, we have our own metrics and parameters
03:38 that we look at before we invest into a company.
03:42 It ticks all the boxes.
03:43 We go in.
03:45 But then it needs a lot of patience,
03:48 because one has to be aware that the company never
03:50 had access to capital.
03:52 They've just got capital, so you need
03:53 to give them time to do their capacity expansion,
03:56 put up a new plant, or build up their bench strength,
03:59 depending on the business they are in.
04:01 And work with them, help them wherever required.
04:05 So it's a lot of mentoring and nurturing
04:06 involved in the process.
04:09 I just wanted to check with you on the process
04:13 there, because you yourself mentioned
04:15 that many of the companies don't have a balance sheet.
04:18 They're first time coming to the public markets,
04:21 and there's a window for them so that they
04:23 can list on the SME platform.
04:25 And once they mature, they can migrate to the main board.
04:30 How do you finally decide where to invest?
04:33 Because the investing norms are also
04:35 a little different for the SME platform.
04:37 You have market makers who will make market for you,
04:43 and entry and exits are a little higher.
04:45 Unlike the main board, you have a threshold level
04:48 of investing, even for retail.
04:50 And you come from an institutional background.
04:53 How do you go about saying that, what kind of liquidity
04:56 I need before I invest in an SME platform?
05:01 So liquidity is, again, a process
05:02 that happens over time as the market looks
05:05 the value in the stock.
05:06 Of course, when a stock list has a lot of liquidity,
05:09 but for somebody who's looking at just the initial pop,
05:12 that works well.
05:13 But liquidity will dry out after a couple of weeks,
05:15 and then rebuild if the company continues to do well.
05:19 So some of the things that we look at when
05:21 I look at a company, the company has
05:23 to be profitable consistently.
05:27 It should be growing faster than the industry, much faster
05:30 than the industry, despite limited capital.
05:35 It should also have a very small market share,
05:38 and that goes in line with the growth
05:41 and a smaller market share.
05:43 So that becomes a very, very key metric for us.
05:48 Promoters have to be good in terms of their background
05:50 checks.
05:52 And it should have some moat about the business.
05:56 The companies that we invest in, for example,
05:58 Enron Technology Services, we invested in the IPO
06:01 in January, December, Jan last year, a year back.
06:05 The company was facing a challenge
06:07 where the government said make in India
06:09 for certain types of machinery in the airport services sector.
06:13 And there was nobody manufacturing it,
06:15 and these were the guys who were servicing it literally
06:18 with a 90% market share, very small business,
06:21 but literally turned out to be a sweet spot.
06:25 All that company needed was capital
06:26 to set up assembly lines and take it to the next level.
06:32 So we like that business.
06:34 Or if I could take example of paints industry,
06:36 let's say Asian paints have a 59%, 60% market share,
06:41 having a CAG of 12%, 13%.
06:45 How far it can grow from here after it reached 60% market
06:49 share?
06:50 If I could look at that industry,
06:52 I would look at a company with a niche market,
06:56 maybe a 0.1% market share, and it's
07:00 growing to 1% market share with the infusion of capital.
07:05 So it's a very different approach.
07:07 Somebody like us would never buy Asian paints,
07:09 but would look at a smaller player who's
07:12 starved of capital and can ride that growth curve
07:16 if they get the capital.
07:18 What could be the holding period for such investments?
07:22 Because a lot of retail investors also look at SMEs,
07:25 and we have seen nearly 148 SME companies getting listed
07:30 on both NSE and BSE platforms.
07:32 And many of them doing the IPOs have a huge over-subscription
07:36 that comes in.
07:37 That also translates into a higher price on listing as
07:41 well.
07:42 So what should be the holding period for investors,
07:44 given the fact that we see a lot of investors in India
07:48 today who are flippers in the first week of listing?
07:52 So bulk of the investors are actually flippers.
07:55 If you check the data, most of them
07:58 sell on day one and day two.
08:00 And especially with the frenzy going on right now,
08:03 IPOs getting over-subscribed 400, 500, 600 times,
08:06 some even 1,000 times.
08:09 It's a question of getting a lottery ticket
08:12 and winning that lottery.
08:13 And you sell on listing gains of 100%, whatever, 200%,
08:19 capture the pop and get out.
08:21 But that's not really the right approach.
08:24 We never define a holding period.
08:26 But ideally, if I'm getting into those companies,
08:29 we would look at at least two to three years for them
08:31 to actually grow to a level that was envisioned.
08:36 If a company wants to set up a new plant,
08:38 the plant will not be set up overnight.
08:40 It'll take probably a year.
08:42 After that, it needs to operationalize the plant,
08:46 kind of drive the growth, drive the sales,
08:50 make it in terms of get all your parameters right
08:54 in terms of profitability, in terms of margins,
08:56 et cetera, et cetera, some rationalization.
09:00 So you need to give time.
09:01 As long as we feel that the company and the management
09:05 is in the right direction, we will not sell.
09:09 Rather, in a lot of instances, we've
09:11 been actually buying at even 2x or 3x the price,
09:15 because we can see where the company is going,
09:17 where the management is going, and the growth
09:19 prospects for the company.
09:22 And similarly, what will be the exit strategy or exit
09:27 methodology?
09:27 Because as you said, liquidity will be very little.
09:31 Many of them will have exited during the first week.
09:34 And if you're holding on for a period of time
09:37 and you have a substantial stake in the company
09:39 or substantial shares in the company,
09:40 exit is not going to be as easy as in the main board.
09:43 So how does an investor who wants
09:46 to hold on for a couple of years have
09:51 an exit plan for the SME platform?
09:55 So a lot of companies, if you see,
09:57 if there are about 1,100 companies which
09:59 are listed on SME, about 200 have already
10:02 migrated to the main board.
10:04 With the new regulations coming in,
10:07 where now they need to be there for three years
10:09 and meet certain capital criteria.
10:11 So if you've invested in a bona fide good company,
10:15 gradually it will move to the main board
10:17 and liquidity will dramatically change.
10:20 Having said that, we have not faced an issue in terms
10:24 of exit.
10:25 Of course, if you want to exit, you just
10:27 don't go and place a large sale order, which
10:30 is not good for the market, for the ecosystem.
10:33 You do it slowly.
10:35 In our case, because we have continuous inflow of capital,
10:38 we are never under pressure to sell.
10:40 So if you have to exit, we'll calibrate it
10:42 over a month or whatever time it needs.
10:47 Because I'm looking at your returns,
10:51 since inception it's around 146%.
10:54 That's a huge return.
10:55 And given the fact that you have a good exposure to the SME,
10:59 you're the best person to say how to play the SME platform
11:02 and trade or invest in SME companies
11:06 and get returns from there.
11:08 Do you find that all companies which
11:11 are coming on the SME platform are
11:12 able to scale up to the promises that they have made?
11:17 Not all, but quite a few of them are able to scale up.
11:20 So if you see, we probably invest in one of the 10
11:24 IPOs that comes in.
11:27 And a lot of these companies, we've actually been watching
11:29 and talking to them way before the IPO.
11:34 It's just that-- and that's, again, a journey.
11:37 It's a very casual approach where
11:40 we speak to about four to five portfolio companies every day
11:42 on a casual basis, just trying to see what they're doing,
11:46 where they're heading.
11:47 No specific questions, but a normal casual chat.
11:50 And answers come in.
11:53 And that gives you a lot of comfort or discomfort
11:55 as you go along.
11:57 The key is, if you look at India as a growth story,
12:02 now, of course, we don't have to sell India.
12:05 But it's driven largely by SME.
12:08 India's almost 30%, 35% GDP comes from the SME segment.
12:13 SME segment generates about 40% of India's employment.
12:16 There are about 600,000-odd SMEs in India, of which probably
12:20 50,000 are listable.
12:23 And only about 1,000 have listed.
12:25 So we've just scratched the tip of the surface.
12:28 There's huge value out there.
12:31 Unfortunately, these companies have never had capital,
12:35 never had proper balance sheets, corporate governance.
12:38 They never knew that they have to do this.
12:43 But what has happened is, I think, since 2016, for me,
12:47 what I look at is the changing point.
12:50 When demonetization happened, a lot of these companies
12:53 were forced to come into the mainstream cash business top.
12:56 This was followed by digitization
12:58 of Indian economy, GST reform.
13:01 So now, a lot of these companies have proper balance sheets,
13:05 but not capital.
13:08 Think of a company having a 30, 40 crore top line,
13:11 generating a part of 1%, 2%.
13:13 Promoter has a family to take care of,
13:15 doesn't get bank lines.
13:16 So whatever he earns, saves, goes back into the business.
13:20 And with that, he's able to grow 15%, 20%.
13:23 Now, if he gets 15%, 20%, 30 crores of capital,
13:28 you can see that he can scale it up from 40 to 200, 300.
13:32 And gradually, the time will tell
13:34 whether he can go to 2,000 crores or 20,000 crores or not.
13:38 But all the big companies today were SMEs at one point,
13:42 by definition.
13:44 Whether you look at Amazon or Apple or in India,
13:47 look at any of the large groups, they all started small.
13:50 So my final question before we go into a break,
13:55 we've seen some excesses also happening in this segment.
13:59 In the sense, it's overheated.
14:01 Regulator is constantly watching on it.
14:04 There's always this thing of whether this segment is
14:09 getting-- there is some abuses being done by either the bankers
14:13 or the investors or, for that matter, companies who
14:16 are coming into that platform.
14:18 How do you caution a retail investor who
14:22 wants to invest in an SME company
14:25 and stay away from all the red flags?
14:30 I think there are many merchant bankers in the industry.
14:33 So my first check for a daily investor
14:35 would be look at the active merchant bankers in the segment
14:39 and look at their performance.
14:40 Because they are the ones who spend months
14:44 doing their due diligence, whether it's
14:48 creating a corporate governance structure,
14:50 whether it's preparing a DRHP valuation, et cetera, et
14:54 cetera.
14:55 So for a retail investor, that's a public data available.
15:00 There's a public data available on the anchor investors.
15:03 You can see their track record in terms of the companies
15:05 that they've invested, how they've fared a year or two
15:08 years or three years down the line,
15:10 and whether they're still holding the company or not.
15:15 So I think that kind of analysis,
15:17 apart from reading on about the company,
15:22 spend some time on the DRHP, try and get
15:24 hold of the investor presentation,
15:26 spend some time on that, rather than just looking
15:29 at a gray market premium and applying for the IPO
15:32 and waiting for a lottery.
15:35 So one has to be cautious.
15:36 And retail investors can do little due diligence.
15:40 But there are enough tools available
15:42 which are more of surrogates rather than direct data points
15:46 available.
15:47 Vineet, stay on.
15:49 We'll be back after a short break
15:50 where we will discuss some of the portfolio of Vineet, where
15:54 he's invested, especially some of the interesting sectors
15:57 and SME companies that he has invested in.
15:59 Stay tuned to The Portfolio Manager.
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17:53 Welcome back.
18:00 You're watching The Portfolio Manager.
18:01 And I have Vineet Arora, who is the MD and head of asset
18:05 management at NAV Capital.
18:07 Vineet, let's take us through your portfolio.
18:13 You have roughly-- you spent 20% of your investments
18:17 in pre-IPO, and then followed by micro and small cap,
18:22 which is 60%, and then you have 20% cash.
18:25 What is the reason that you keep 20% cash?
18:28 Is it because you need to have the dry powder
18:31 for this quick investment, or is there secondary market
18:34 opportunities that you look for?
18:36 So over the last two months, our cash holdings
18:39 have gone up, largely because we've
18:41 seen some fraud in the market.
18:43 And we are being extra cautious by holding some cash,
18:48 waiting for some corrections.
18:50 The second reason we hold substantial cash
18:52 is sometimes when a good opportunity comes
18:55 in the pre-IPO space, and you need to move fast for that,
18:59 you need to have cash ready.
19:01 It's your ability to actually give capital to a company
19:05 when it really, really needs it.
19:08 And as investors, it helps you to get a better price
19:11 point of entry pre-listing.
19:16 Third reason we hold cash is because it's a liquid fund.
19:20 So if somebody wants a redemption,
19:22 we don't want to be under pressure to sell anything.
19:26 That's largely three reasons that we
19:28 hold substantial amount of cash at all point of times.
19:31 So if I look at your sector allocation,
19:34 you have RAS, which is a sector.
19:37 Can you explain what is that for us?
19:39 And you have nearly 20% allocation to that sector.
19:45 So 20% has grown because of the companies that we invested
19:49 have grown multi-fold from the time we invested.
19:54 But it's quite an interesting space.
19:56 So I met a promoter about two years back,
20:00 slightly more than two years, who's
20:02 running a managed offices business,
20:03 looking to list his company, trying to raise capital.
20:09 Around the same time, WeWork India
20:12 raised about $300 million at $1.2 billion valuation,
20:18 operating 64,000 seats.
20:20 We looked at this company, $10 million valuation, 18,000 seats
20:24 and profitable, even during COVID.
20:27 Understood the business and why others are not
20:31 able to crack the code, and this guy is.
20:33 And we went and invested in the company.
20:36 And we participated in subsequent rounds as well.
20:40 Stock has done almost 22, 23x from our first round
20:44 of investment now.
20:45 Which is this company?
20:48 This is called EMS India Limited.
20:52 So now the market cap is fully diluted,
20:54 this is about 2,500 crores.
20:57 But our first investment was at 85 crore rupee valuation.
21:02 So if you compare $1.2 billion to $10 million,
21:05 64,000 seats to 18,000 seats, loss-making to profit-making,
21:10 I think it was a no-brainer at that point of time.
21:14 We also invested in a company called TCC Concept.
21:18 Again, it's been two years of journey now.
21:20 Now we've kind of started to see the fruits, where
21:23 the company is ready to launch its products in the market.
21:28 Pathbreaking on the real estate side,
21:30 again, more on the real estate services side
21:33 as commercial broking and allied services.
21:37 But again, they've done some phenomenal work
21:39 in last two years.
21:41 And we've seen the journey.
21:43 So within the SME space, which are the sectors and teams that
21:47 are working for you?
21:49 Because as you go to mid and higher,
21:51 the sectors are very broad in nature.
21:55 But the teams are not there.
21:57 But you get those teams in the smaller companies
21:59 and micro-cap companies.
22:03 So some of the companies that have worked well for us
22:05 are in the IT space or IT services,
22:09 but not like a servicing model, what
22:12 a Wipro or Infosys would do, but very, very niche players
22:17 who are either in partner trainings
22:19 or making modules for some of the larger players,
22:24 doing some back-end work, but which is high tech.
22:27 Some of the investments have done well on the, for example,
22:30 digital studio side, which I would put in the same basket
22:34 as technology.
22:36 Drone sector has done very well for us.
22:38 We were the anchors to the first drone IPO, which
22:41 was Dronacharya in India, the third one, which
22:44 is drone destination.
22:46 We did not invest in IdeaForge because we
22:48 found it a bit too expensive.
22:51 So these have done well for us.
22:54 In general, ancillary services across sectors have done well.
23:00 We have done spices.
23:01 We've done semiconductors.
23:04 As we talk, we are investing into the company
23:08 that we-- which was our first investment from the fund, which
23:11 is a fintech SaaS platform, which is scaled up very nicely,
23:14 highly profitable.
23:16 And now we're looking for ways to take it public.
23:21 We are doubling down or tripling down now.
23:28 It's right.
23:29 And you're also invested in consumer appliances,
23:32 or consumer segment through Inflame and other companies
23:36 as well.
23:37 Yes.
23:37 So how do you see that market growing?
23:42 So consumer sector in general is doing OK.
23:46 But of course, it's driven by spending.
23:48 And especially the rural side has done quite well.
23:52 So a case in point would be FMCG company on the spending side,
23:56 Annapurna Swadesh, wherein we did pre-IQ at 40 rupees.
24:01 IQ came at 70, and I think it's rated 330 or something.
24:05 We continue to hold.
24:06 We haven't sold.
24:08 Inflame has done quite well.
24:11 They are into appliances manufacturing.
24:13 But they're more of an outsourced player
24:14 where they supply to larger players like Havils, et cetera.
24:20 So this is like you investing into a Dixon, which
24:24 is onto the appliances and TVs and other things.
24:28 This is the lower end of similar segment.
24:32 And what about pharma and health care?
24:35 I see Sotac Pharma is one of the companies
24:39 where you have some invest--
24:41 So we continue to hold a fantastic team
24:44 of people running the company very, very down to earth.
24:49 They've set up a new plant, which
24:51 is just becoming operational.
24:53 So we'll start seeing the traction now.
24:54 Again, we invested almost a year back.
24:58 I think the IQ came in April last year.
25:01 So you need to give time for the plant to come up,
25:04 the capacity to come up, the efficiencies to start showing.
25:08 But we stay invested.
25:09 We invested in Trident Pharma.
25:11 That's done decently well.
25:13 Again, we stay invested.
25:15 That's more on the intellectual property
25:18 right side of business, API side of business.
25:20 This is more on the manufacturing side.
25:21 So same industry, but different segments.
25:26 Finally, you have sizable stakes also in this.
25:29 It's not just some shares, but you have the sizable stakes.
25:34 Do you guide them through the process
25:36 of moving from a SME platform to a main board
25:38 as well as investors, long-term investors in these companies?
25:43 Yes, we do.
25:44 As I said, we talk to three to four companies
25:46 on a daily basis, probably meet all of them
25:49 in a six-month period.
25:52 We try and understand the challenges they are facing.
25:54 Wherever we can add value, we add value in the system.
25:59 Whether they want to talk to a supplier in some other country
26:03 or a buyer in some other country to actually help them
26:07 articulate what they're trying to say, because a lot of them
26:10 have never done it, or help them go in the right direction.
26:15 And because, let's say, we invested in 40, 50 companies,
26:19 we try and see a mutual fit also within our investment
26:24 portfolio, wherever we can add value
26:25 in terms of cross-introducing them
26:28 to companies in a portfolio so that both of them grow.
26:32 Vineet, it was a pleasure talking to you today.
26:35 Thank you very much for joining us on ADTV Profit.
26:38 That was Vinod Arora, who is the managing director and head
26:40 of asset management at Nav Capital,
26:42 taking us through some of the details of the SME platform
26:46 where he is a large investor in many of the companies
26:50 through anchor investing and subsequently.
26:53 And thank you for watching today, The Portfolio Manager.
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30:49 Well, it's an earnings-heavy week on the Nifty.
30:51 You have Reliance Industries, HUL, Ultratech.
30:53 All are expected to come out with their December quarter
30:56 earnings today.
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31:00 Today on NDTV Profit, we get to you
31:03 top voices from the World Economic Forum, Davos,
31:07 where top economists and corporations
31:09 are speaking about the changing landscape of the business
31:12 world and the global economy.
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31:21 Good afternoon and welcome.
31:29 You're watching Market IQ on NDTV Profit.
31:31 I'm Harsh Saita.
31:32 With me is Pallavi.
31:33 We're going to take you over the next half an hour about all
31:36 that's happening in markets.
31:37 Let's quickly look at where the Nifty and the benchmarks are
31:40 at.
31:41 You're looking at 7/10 of a percent of gains
31:43 on the Nifty 50 around.
31:45 The Nifty is roughly 60-odd points above its day's low.
31:49 So that's one positive way to look at it.
31:52 Let's also look at the contributories as we speak.
31:55 You're largely seeing gains coming in
31:57 from the likes of an ICICI, a Bharti Airtel up nearly 4%
32:00 in trade today, and L&T, an Axis Bank, leading the charge.
32:04 Can we also have the heat map there just
32:06 to kind of figure out as to which
32:08 stocks are gaining and losing?
32:09 And you'll see on the map the top gainers,
32:12 the likes of an ICICI Bank, a Bharti Airtel.
32:16 Even an ITC is up 1% and an Axis Bank among those
32:20 who are leading the charge.
32:22 In terms of the losers, well, it's an advance heavy week,
32:26 or rather an advance heavy day, I beg your pardon.
32:29 4% higher on Bharti Airtel, as you can see.
32:32 NTPC, ONGC also leading the charge, roughly 2.5% higher.
32:36 It's even Tata Steel, ICICI Bank.
32:38 In terms of the declines, just about 8%
32:40 led by IndusInd Bank, 3.5% lower on the back of those
32:44 poor or weakest sort of numbers.
32:47 The numbers were largely in line.
32:48 Actually, the slippages came in slightly higher
32:50 than what the market was expecting.
32:53 And that's what's keeping the stock in use, down 3.5%,
32:56 the top loser on the Nifty 50 today.
32:58 Let's quickly look at where the broader markets are at.
33:01 You're seeing the Nifty mid-cap and small-cap both gain 1%.
33:04 Plus, that's a healthy advance after the week
33:08 that we've seen for the Nifty 50 as well.
33:11 You're seeing the Nifty Bank around 2/5% higher.
33:14 But outside of that, the Nifty Fin
33:16 is up around 9/10 of a percent today,
33:18 which is, again, a positive.
33:20 Outside the financial pack, the Nifty Metal
33:22 is gaining 1.3 odd percent, again, a positive there.
33:26 That's the top sectoral gain for the day.
33:29 Among the losers, we have the likes of a Nifty Media,
33:32 probably the only sole loser among sectoral indices.
33:35 And if we can look within the Nifty Media
33:37 to quickly check as to what the constituents of the Nifty Media
33:40 are doing, you'll see that largely the losses are
33:44 driven by Zee and Dish TV.
33:47 Outside of that, you are seeing green across the board.
33:51 So Nifty Media, specific pocket, which is seeing a bit of red.
33:54 But outside of that, you are seeing
33:56 good buying that's happening.
33:58 And it looks like the market is going
34:02 to stay in the green through the day, at least today.
34:05 At least that's the cues we're tracking.
34:07 Last off, I want to look at the advance decline as well,
34:10 Pallavi, because it seems that we
34:12 are in favor of the advances.
34:14 But how much?
34:15 There you go.
34:16 3 is to 1 in favor of--