For this weeks In Conversation we sat down with singer-songwriter Lucy Rose to talk about her experiences with rare pregnancy-related osteoporosis, how Paul Weller helped restore her confidence, working with US rapper Logic and her bright new album ‘This Ain’t The Way You Go Out’.
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00:00 I just, to be honest, I just don't want any other new mum to have to go through it.
00:05 And a lot of the issues that I found was just out of lack of awareness.
00:10 So my GPs, even when we discovered what I had, they're like, "Oh, we just didn't know this existed.
00:16 None of us knew that this was a condition that we should be looking out for."
00:26 Hi, I'm Rhianne Daly and today I'm joined by Lucy Rose for the latest in NME's In Conversation video series.
00:32 Hi Lucy, how are you?
00:33 I'm okay, how are you?
00:34 I'm good, thank you.
00:36 So you're back with a new album, This Ain't The Way You Go Out, in April.
00:39 It's your first album in five years?
00:42 Something like that, yeah.
00:44 It's been a long time.
00:44 Five years.
00:45 You were planning on taking a break, then the pandemic happened, then you had a baby,
00:49 and then your whole life got turned upside down.
00:51 What happened?
00:53 Yeah, definitely was hoping to have a break.
00:57 I think my last show here was at the Barbican and I was like, "See you soon in another lifetime,"
01:02 thinking I was just going to have maybe just a couple years off, or just take the pressure off
01:07 to go straight back into writing and recording.
01:10 And then, yeah, pandemic happened, which happened for everyone.
01:15 And then I had a baby, which was absolutely incredible.
01:20 Really best experience of my life.
01:22 And then I started going through a bit of trouble with relatively okay back pain to start with,
01:30 which just increased over the months after having Otis, to a point where I just, yeah,
01:35 life was definitely upside down.
01:37 I couldn't walk or move.
01:40 Breathing was virtually excruciating all the time,
01:44 until I found out that I had broken my back in multiple places.
01:48 And you were going back and forth between doctors and physios and people.
01:52 How long was that process of trying to find out what was going on?
01:55 Yeah, months, really.
01:57 I think my back pain stepped up and got really bad around when Otis was about five weeks old.
02:04 And again, I had no, because this is my first baby, I really had no gauge on what was normal,
02:10 what was regular normal back pain, what your body should feel like after having a child or any of it.
02:16 And then I didn't get a diagnosis.
02:19 So this was in July until December time, really.
02:24 That must have been very, I guess frustration is probably an understatement,
02:27 but frustrating to kind of be telling people that there was something wrong with you
02:31 and not having them listen or kind of look at your back even.
02:34 It was still like deeply worrying, to be honest.
02:37 And I genuinely started to sort of question my own mental health, really,
02:43 because I went repeatedly to the GP and explained what was going on
02:49 and got told repeatedly that it was completely normal.
02:52 So at that point it was like, if this is normal, what is going on?
02:57 I can't care for my baby. I can barely care for myself right now.
03:02 And I'm being told repeatedly that it's normal and I should just keep going on.
03:08 So at that point it was, yeah, I didn't really know where to turn.
03:12 Probably the only time in my life I really needed medical help,
03:15 like desperately, desperately needed help.
03:18 Yeah, didn't really know where to go with it.
03:21 What kind of support resources did you have in that time?
03:24 Well, I think it was just one day I was trying to come down the stairs
03:29 and I would have these back spasms all the time.
03:32 I would just have a back spasm, which would mean that I would just sort of cry out
03:37 in excruciating pain.
03:39 And my husband was just like, this is too much.
03:42 I'm going to book you an MRI.
03:44 Just got on the phone and booked me this private MRI scan,
03:49 which luckily we did get our money back for.
03:52 And then that showed you these eight broken vertebrae in my back.
03:55 What was that moment when you finally got that diagnosis
03:58 and you realised how severe this thing that you'd been living with was?
04:02 Very strange.
04:04 I remember talking to the doctor at the hospital and he was like,
04:07 yeah, I've got your MRI here, I'm going to talk you through your spine.
04:10 This vertebrae is broken and this vertebrae is broken.
04:13 And immediately I was like, I knew it.
04:16 I was sort of relieved in a way.
04:20 I just really was.
04:22 And sort of this huge adrenaline rush I remember having of this information.
04:28 And then a bit of a, to everybody who'd been a part of my life in a few months,
04:34 being like, what's going on with Lucy and her back?
04:37 And be like, this is what's going on.
04:39 I have the piece of paper here.
04:41 We can all look at it and understand it now.
04:44 So weirdly relieved.
04:45 And then I think probably 24 hours later,
04:49 suddenly very concerned about why that had happened.
04:53 Yeah, absolutely.
04:54 Did they give you kind of any explanation about why that does happen
04:57 to certain women after pregnancy?
04:59 So at the time, that doctor sort of talked me through my breaks
05:04 and then sent it to my GP surgery.
05:08 And then I didn't hear from my GP surgery.
05:11 I was sort of waiting, like, what do we do next?
05:13 And I remember calling them.
05:16 And then I remember, like, before we got into it,
05:19 their lawyer's getting in contact with me, which was odd.
05:21 So it's sort of saying you need to get a lawyer now.
05:23 And I was like, I don't want a lawyer.
05:25 I don't want to see the NHS either.
05:27 I just really need some help.
05:29 Yeah, eventually we found out.
05:31 My GP, I spoke to him, and we decided to get a bone density scan.
05:36 And then it was when my bone density scan came back,
05:40 sort of like minus 4.4 in my spine,
05:42 which just got sent directly to me, actually just got emailed to me.
05:45 And then I was sort of deciphering what it meant via Googling
05:50 the density that I'd been given,
05:53 and found out that I had severe osteoporosis.
05:56 So I sort of worked it out myself,
05:58 and then had to try and work out how I got better, really.
06:02 Did you feel like if you didn't get this MRI yourself,
06:04 then you probably, or you might not ever get an answer?
06:07 I don't know, because I don't, like, I have no idea.
06:11 Because I can't imagine of being able to carry on.
06:17 I think I would have just had to keep going back to the doctors even more, I think.
06:21 The MRI just fast-tracked that.
06:23 But yeah, if you didn't have the money, because it was expensive,
06:25 it was like £3,000 or something.
06:28 If you didn't have the money, yeah, just very grateful that I was able to do that
06:31 and fast-track just that little bit of time,
06:33 even though, you know, five months down the line of having back pain.
06:36 Yeah, that must have been such a strain on your mental health as well as your physical health as well, I guess.
06:40 Like, you're recovering from having a baby,
06:42 which is a big change in your life, physically, mentally.
06:46 And then you also have to deal with this.
06:48 Yeah, to be honest, it's very hard to even remember a lot of it now.
06:54 But yeah, it was an extremely difficult time.
07:00 It was very, very scary.
07:03 And on top of that, I think having a new baby, that was solely looking for me and my partner to look after them.
07:09 At that point where I felt so vulnerable in myself that I couldn't do anything.
07:13 It was like an out-of-body experience,
07:15 because until then I felt like I was a strong, able person and resilient.
07:21 And at that point it felt like my entire character changed in terms of who I was,
07:28 because I felt very unrecognisable.
07:31 And I guess at that point you didn't know if you'd be able to make music again either,
07:35 because you probably didn't know if you'd be able to walk again.
07:38 Yeah, to be honest, it did drop down the old list of priorities.
07:41 At that point, it was like, 'Will I be able to walk again?'
07:44 And a few doctors were saying, 'I'm not sure. We'll have to see how your back heals.'
07:49 Most have said, 'Your life will be very different from that one.'
07:52 And to be honest, luckily I've got to a point where it isn't drastically different at the moment,
07:59 other than back pain that I suffer with, which is manageable,
08:03 and not being able to go skiing or horseback riding, which I'm fine with.
08:08 Touch wood, yeah.
08:10 The life that I want, I'm able to have still, which I'm grateful for.
08:15 When you first started being able to play piano again, even if it was just for a few moments,
08:18 how important was that for you mentally and for your recovery?
08:21 To be honest, I don't think I would have gone near it, because in the past,
08:25 if I ever have gone through difficult circumstances in life,
08:30 music has often made me delve into it in a way that is difficult.
08:34 So it's a painful experience.
08:37 And I think because this is probably the worst thing that I've ever gone through in my life,
08:40 I was very aware that I didn't actually want to go near music.
08:43 I was like, I do not need to feel worse than I already do, so I'm maybe not going to do that.
08:50 And then it really was just spending all the time with Otis,
08:54 and trying to entertain the baby and do things that, you know,
08:57 he would want to explore the house and would want to play the piano,
09:00 and naturally I would sit down with him on my lap and start playing.
09:04 So it was a very different reason of coming back to the piano, coming back to play.
09:08 And slowly that came from me playing Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star on the piano, literally,
09:15 or whatever that was familiar to him, into playing some chords to him
09:19 and showing him some of the other things.
09:21 And it was in that natural thing that happened that suddenly I was discovering new chords.
09:26 And I think maybe because it was for him, they weren't too down.
09:31 They were trying to make something joyful, like in a way.
09:35 And then I just started, yeah, playing. And then that was when it was really exciting,
09:38 because suddenly I was playing piano and it was making me feel good.
09:43 And that is a different experience that I didn't think I would have.
09:48 So it really helped me get back into finding that part of myself anyway,
09:54 and then going on to making the record.
09:56 How did it feel when you kind of came to start writing the lyrics?
09:59 Because the album does, of course, touch on this experience that you've been going through.
10:02 I put those right off. I'll do those last. I'm going to do all the fun stuff first.
10:08 And I really did. It was a different way of making a record, because I had the chords, the melodies,
10:14 and then got my drummer and my bass player, and we were just in the music room around the corner.
10:20 We just jammed out the songs, and I could mumble whatever words I had, really.
10:26 I hadn't spent too much of it. It was just a subconscious thing, really, at that point.
10:30 And just have fun playing with a drummer and a bass player, and the song started taking shape,
10:35 and I was like, "This is feeling really fun. This is really great."
10:38 And then went to record some demos initially, and then those demos progressed into making the record.
10:43 Then I was like, "I need to sit and write these lyrics."
10:48 And I think it was, I noticed, about 40 months old, he started nursery.
10:51 And I think because I knew my time was so precious, I really sat,
10:56 like properly sat down as soon as I dropped him off, notebook and pen, and just wrote everything.
11:04 The stuff I wasn't comfortable with didn't go in it. It's stuff I was, and it just, yeah.
11:09 I did have to delve into it, but I think because the music was there,
11:12 and I was listening to these forms of these uplifting music in many ways,
11:17 I was listening to it, I felt more empowered to tell the story than down about it, if that makes sense.
11:25 Is that kind of a different approach to how you've done past albums of leaving the lyrics to the very last,
11:30 and letting whatever you've been coming up with musically lead the sound and the feel of the album?
11:35 Definitely. Often it has just been the song.
11:38 To be honest, I've hardly written any songs on piano,
11:41 and the only reason I was is because I couldn't play guitar because of my back.
11:45 So I ended up playing a lot more on the piano, but before it would just be a guitar and a vocal,
11:50 and the lyrics all formed, the song would be there,
11:53 and I would just delicately put an arrangement around a finished song.
11:58 And instead it was like, let's make music that makes me feel really good,
12:04 and that's fun to play, because, and then the lyrics came on last really.
12:10 I feel like the album does sound very Lucy Rose,
12:12 but there's also lots of very different layers in the sounds that people probably wouldn't associate with you.
12:18 I guess there's some break beats on there, and lots of fun things like that.
12:22 Where did they come from in the process of writing?
12:26 I'm trying to think. When I started doing the demos, I think it was December time,
12:31 and I don't know what year, sorry. I could be that person who tries to remember what I come up.
12:36 But I think October time, I had a text from my friend Bobby, who's an artist called Logic,
12:43 who's a rapper predominantly and does hip-hop in America, saying,
12:47 "Hey, I'm making this record, and we're going to go old school."
12:49 Because I'd done a record like this many moons ago, where we're just going to get the musicians in the room,
12:54 and we're just going to make this record and do all the finishing touches.
12:57 "Will you come to New York for a week?"
12:59 And I was just probably one and a half, so tiny, and I was thinking, I can't do that.
13:04 Also my back, is it going to manage?
13:06 And he's like, "We're going to fly you first class, it's good."
13:09 I was like, oh my God, I'm going to do it.
13:11 And then probably the hardest thing I'd done since having a child, all of this, was taking this risk,
13:18 because you have to be confident, I guess, to get on a plane and think,
13:23 I'm going to go into the studio and sing and do all this stuff with all these people I don't know.
13:26 And it was so good for me, because I probably had very little self-esteem at that point,
13:31 and confidence in getting back into music, and I hadn't even started the process we just talked about.
13:36 And then I just had a week with the most enthusiastic Americans,
13:41 and the opposite of British people, who were like, "This is amazing, we're making great music!"
13:46 I would sing anything, it felt like anything, and they'd be like, "That was genius, I love it!"
13:51 This constant, just making you feel like you're not terrible.
13:57 And then I just came back with that energy.
14:00 And I think some of the hip-hop and the breakbeats, definitely I love hip-hop.
14:04 I really do love Logic's music a lot, I listen to it a lot.
14:07 I just was like, let's bring some of this free energy back into what I'm doing here,
14:13 which is not overthinking things, and not analysing whether this is the right move to make with each instrument.
14:20 And I really didn't with my bass player and my drummer when we started playing,
14:23 I was like, "I'm not going to say anything until you guys are happy with your parts."
14:28 And they'd be like, "So you just let me know, we'll play it as many times as you need to play it until you're happy with it."
14:32 And then when they were like, "I feel like I've honed my part after we played it for half an hour to an hour, there's nothing for me to say."
14:39 So it was a really easy process, because I was like, "Great, this is much freer than anything I've done before."
14:46 You said that when you were working with Logic, that he talked about the ideas of closed creativity and open creativity.
14:53 What are they and how did they impact this album?
14:56 He's such a fascinating person. When we went in, he had a finished record of songs and beats and his parts all down,
15:06 but he wanted to add textures, whether it was keys or real bass or vocals or strings and wind instruments and all those different things.
15:14 And he said, "When I'm writing my lyrics and when I'm writing the song, I'm in closed creativity.
15:19 But now in the studio with you guys, I'm completely open." So it's really about getting people in the room that you trust and you like what they do,
15:28 and then letting them do what they do best without controlling it too much, which I think is a trap that anyone can fall into,
15:35 and probably I have in the past. And it was very freeing to be able just to sing ideas that I had and put them down and do that.
15:44 And I just thought, "I need to do this when we get home," because it seems like a much funner experience than doing too much talking, really.
15:53 Yeah, and trying to make it stick to one vision, I guess, and not letting it go wherever it needs to go.
15:59 Yeah, words can be meaningless. I could have said a million things like, "Hey, can we try and make it sound like this?
16:05 And I've got this idea and I've got this idea." Or I could just say, "I think you're both amazing musicians.
16:11 Can we just play this song I've written until it feels good?" And it was a million times better than if I'd used a load of rubbish words
16:19 and filled their head with stuff before they even picked up their instruments, really.
16:24 As well as Logic, kind of been someone who gave you confidence back in what you were doing musically, Paul Weller also played a part in this album, From Afar, I guess.
16:33 He let you use his studio and he kind of gave you free reign over it because he was so impressed with what you were making, right?
16:39 Probably and also because I was asking him. A combination of two things. He has always been amazingly kind to me.
16:50 One of my favourite people I've met on this journey musically. And yeah, he'd offered before, he's always been really supportive, like,
16:59 "Do you want to write a song together? We should do something. What can we do?"
17:02 And I have been too nervous a lot of the time and probably too insecure to take him up on stuff.
17:09 And coming out of my back and regaining this part of my life again that I really thought was lost forever,
17:16 I just had a little bit more, just a braver person to a certain degree. And then message him and like,
17:23 "Can I actually borrow the studio that you probably offered me five years ago?" I don't even know how long ago it was.
17:28 And just record some demos for a day and then recorded these demos. And then I just got a phone call from him.
17:35 I can't remember if a couple of days later after being there being like, "These are brilliant. These demos are great.
17:40 I've listened to them." I was like, the fact that he'd gone into a studio and listened to what I'd done was just, again, felt massive to me.
17:47 And then just gave me as much support as he could. He was like, "Anything you need, you just need to use the studio.
17:53 You're making a record. These aren't demos." At this point, he was like, "You don't need a producer.
17:58 You just need to keep coming here and laying down your music. And if you want any help with strings or direction,
18:04 I know string players, I know these people. You just give me a call and I'll help in any way that I can."
18:11 So I was buzzing. I was like absolutely buzzing. Because I do find thinking about how to make a record feels insanely daunting.
18:19 And I don't have a manager. And you sometimes go like, "Okay, so how does this process start necessarily?
18:25 Who are the right people even to make it with?" So yeah, that was massive.
18:33 Talking about being brave as well, you just texted Quez out of the blue, I guess.
18:37 You didn't know him before and asked him to work on the record with you.
18:40 Yeah, I had a lot of support from my friend, Steph, who had given me his number.
18:46 And was like, "Text him." So I was like, "I think Quez would be perfect to do his thing on all these tracks.
18:52 We've got them to a really good place, but it needs more." She was like, "100% just text him."
18:57 I was like, "How am I meant to... How do I text someone who has no idea who I am probably?"
19:02 So I think actually she might have composed a message, which I then copy and pasted and sent to him.
19:09 And then I think, honestly, a few hours after I sent it, we were on the phone chatting about the record.
19:14 And it was that quick. So again, yeah, from coming to a place...
19:18 From coming, honestly, not to sound too mopey about myself, but coming from a place I was in,
19:25 which is... I was hugely, almost ashamed about what had happened to my body and my experience and embarrassed.
19:35 And feeling like I just wanted to hide forever.
19:39 Then coming to a place where these amazing musicians and people were coming to support me in making a record
19:45 and telling me, "This is good and we should make it," and wanting to be involved, it really helped rebuild me entirely.
19:53 Yeah. Do you feel like everything you've gone through, like maybe texting Paul Weller and asking to use his studio,
19:58 texting Quez when he doesn't know who you are, feels less of a big deal, less scary,
20:05 because it's so small compared to the things that you have been through with your body?
20:09 I think I just, not wanting to swear, was having a bit of an effort moment, you know what I mean?
20:14 Just like, "What's the worst that's going to happen?" Probably the same as what you're saying.
20:17 "What's the worst that's going to happen?" They're going to say no.
20:19 And to be honest, being painfully, I don't know, self-deprecating in the past and worrying,
20:29 sometimes I wonder if it is because I have no confidence or is it because I'm too scared to put myself out there,
20:36 because I have an ego, if that makes sense.
20:38 Yeah.
20:39 Like my ego is too scared about having any rejection, so I'd just rather not go there at all because I wouldn't be able to handle it.
20:46 So I was trying to also let go of that part of myself, of the nerves, of making a mistake,
20:51 or someone not wanting to work with me and how that would make me feel,
20:54 and be just like a freer person in terms of that doesn't matter if they don't want to work with me, it's all good.
21:00 At least I'm trying, at least I'm putting myself out there in a way that I haven't before.
21:03 When it came to releasing the first song from the album, I know you talked on social media about having this kind of fear or trepidation around
21:10 whether people would still be interested, if you'd still be relevant.
21:13 How has it been for you, actually, pulling out songs and seeing the reaction from people,
21:17 being able to reconnect with fans who are still very much interested in Lucy Rose?
21:21 I hope so. Obviously very joyful. I think there's a sort of way everyone talks about how you've got to keep churning out the music,
21:29 you've got to keep up momentum, it's all about momentum.
21:32 So having an enormous break and then, it sounds bad, but feeling slightly older.
21:39 I don't know if it makes a difference being a female or not, my experience is that I feel older and I'm a woman,
21:48 it feels difficult to come back and feel relevant still.
21:53 I was a bit not concerned because it doesn't matter either way, but I've been really pleasantly surprised
22:01 that people are messaging and commenting on the stuff and listening to it.
22:08 Some of my friends at the pub, one of their friends said, "Have you heard this new artist, Lucy Rose?"
22:14 That really made me chuckle. She's not new, but this is great.
22:19 The fact that someone could even perceive me as this new artist that's coming out with this music,
22:23 to a certain degree is exciting to me because it feels like it's reaching new people.
22:30 I'm old and washed up in my head, so it's different.
22:35 You got back on stage recently as well, you played at Ronnie Scott's. What was that like?
22:39 That was so much fun. We had this show at the Roundhouse coming up and I knew I wanted to do a really small,
22:48 intimate, let's test the waters with the players and the music.
22:54 I think over time I've just become less... I enjoy less being squashed into tiny little venues where the air is hot.
23:04 I don't know if it's since the pandemic or anything, but for me that's a bit like a nightmare to be honest,
23:09 to have everyone squashed in and a buzzy show where it's one in one hour.
23:13 I really don't want to do something like that. It's way too much effort for me and everyone who's coming to this show not to enjoy it.
23:21 I've been to Ronnie Scott's before and had the best experience ever because you've got table service.
23:26 Just sitting in this really plush seat, your perfect eye line.
23:30 You can see the musicians and people are bringing you drinks. You can have your dinner in the interval. It's ridiculous.
23:36 I was like, "Imagine if I could play Ronnie Scott's." I really think that would be the best experience for my fans,
23:42 to hear this new music in that sort of place. It was really, really enjoyable.
23:48 I had to do an interval which was different, so I played the whole record start to finish and then had a break
23:54 and then played a load of old songs. I really enjoyed being back playing music again.
23:59 What was it like playing the new album for the first time then?
24:02 Like being on a runaway train, to be honest. I was like, "Please remember what you're doing, Lucy.
24:08 Please remember all your words." Because it was the first time I played it ever to anybody other than in the recording process.
24:15 But the band, not to go again, be too much of a cliche, but the band are crazy.
24:21 They are just some of the best musicians I know, if not the best musicians I know, and lovely group of people.
24:30 So, yeah, brilliant.
24:32 And you revisited old songs as well. What was it like going back to those songs, I guess, when you were a very different person?
24:38 Yeah, it totally felt like that. There was a few songs that I was like, "This is not bad, actually."
24:44 Like, "This is an okay song," which is different for me because I'm probably always too in it to ever think like that.
24:50 But I remember thinking, "This is quite nice to play this. I'm enjoying playing this."
24:54 And they weren't so painful. The last record, especially, was everything we talked about.
25:02 I delved deep into the pain, and I lived in it within the music.
25:07 And playing them now, I felt like I could play them and enjoy playing them without feeling too much,
25:13 which, again, was weirdly enjoyable, really.
25:17 Yeah. You mentioned the Roundhouse show that you have coming up.
25:20 What are your plans for that show? Are you going to be doing the whole album in full there as well?
25:24 Yeah, I think it's just, I think maybe it's the week after the record's come out, so people are going to have to really get into it quickly, get to know those songs.
25:33 I don't know how, at the moment, to work out how to mix the two stuff, because if you've seen me and my career, my album's quite varied.
25:44 The music's quite varied, so I need to work out a clever way that it's not too much like a rollercoaster of up and down, up and down.
25:52 But I will be playing the whole record and a load of other ones.
25:56 Moving forward, I guess you're feeling better at the moment, you're doing okay.
26:00 What are your plans going forward for touring or for making more music?
26:04 Good question. What does my life have in store? I don't actually have a clue. In all honesty, that would be the honest answer.
26:10 Touring, the answer's probably not very much, to be honest. I have loved touring and I toured hugely over my career and done Latin America and all sorts of things.
26:25 I've really been a hugely important part of music and connecting to fans, but I just feel like my little boy's just too small at the moment.
26:34 He's only two and I know he'd be fine. Maybe I wouldn't be fine. He'd probably not be bothered and I would be just crying in a travel lodge every night.
26:44 I'm trying to do something different, which is putting out the music in a way that feels really enjoyable and not having to push myself too hard too soon, because it is all so fresh.
26:56 So, yeah, taking it slow. And new music, yeah. I've written a few new ones that I keep poking quares about on text message, like, "Let's go!"
27:08 You're planning to work with him again then?
27:11 I hope so, fingers crossed. Yeah, I've had a great experience working with him.
27:17 And with everything that we've spoken about, with the osteoporosis and everything you've been through, obviously that's very hard for you to talk about.
27:24 But why is it important for you to share your story through the album, through interviews?
27:28 I just, to be honest, I just don't want any other new mum to have to go through it. And a lot of the issues that I found was just out of lack of awareness.
27:39 So my GPs, even when we discovered what I had, they're like, "Oh, we just didn't know this existed. None of us knew that this was a condition that we should be looking out for."
27:49 And again, when the lawyers got in contact, I was like, "Can we just, is there any way of just emailing all of the GPs in the UK and letting them know, 'Here's a condition that exists that you don't know about, so this doesn't happen again.'"
28:00 And sadly, they're like, "That's not really an option. We can't do that." So I just feel like if I can somehow talk about it, raise awareness, if there is anyone listening to this who's suffering in that way, they can be taken seriously.
28:15 Because I think, yeah, we start distrusting on our own bodies and our own knowings of what's right or wrong. And it leads us to just suffer more than we need to, really.
28:26 Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time, Lucy. That was great.
28:30 No, thank you.
28:31 Thank you.
28:32 Thank you.
28:33 (upbeat music)
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