Phil Smith answers fans questions following Michael Beale's departure at Sunderland
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00:00 Hello again, welcome to an emergency edition of On The Whistle, coming to you from my very
00:16 humble abode as you can see. A very dramatic day on weir side I think it's fair to say,
00:23 for those of you that haven't seen it, although I suspect if you're watching this that you
00:26 know pretty well and have read basically everything there is to read about it, but Michael Beale
00:30 has left the club earlier today, confirming that Mike Dodds will be going back to his
00:35 previous role as interim manager until the end of the season. So yeah, I put a call out
00:40 earlier today to see if there was any questions, anything people wanted to talk about on the
00:43 back of today's news and I got loads of questions so thanks so much for sending them in. Sorry
00:49 I haven't got the most professional of setups for you here but I'm sure you can understand
00:53 it's been quite a long day and I'm sure you can also understand if I fumble over my words
00:58 a little bit because it's been, yeah, it's been a hectic one. So we're going to get straight
01:03 into it actually, first question comes from Peter who actually asked on the story who
01:07 knew what when. So yeah, really interesting question, I'll take you behind the curtain
01:12 as much as I possibly can. Obviously there was a fair amount of rumours sort of over
01:16 the weekend off the back of the Birmingham game heading into sort of Sunday and Sunday
01:21 evening. That was mainly based off the fact that Bale obviously didn't travel home with
01:26 the team, I think he was seen once near getting a flight back to Scotland. So obviously you
01:31 sort of do your checks then and just see if there's anything happening. Our very strong
01:35 understanding which I completely sort of stand by and still believe now was that that was
01:40 pre-planned, obviously he was just going home to spend some time with his family, the players
01:44 wouldn't have been necessarily been on a Sunday anyway so there was nothing to it at that
01:48 point. Sometimes probably the thing that might surprise people sort of externally and sometimes
01:53 still takes me by surprise is how quickly these things actually develop. So I genuinely
01:57 don't think this decision had been taken finally until this morning. Obviously not a lot of
02:03 people are aware of it at that stage and we certainly weren't. That began to change around
02:08 lunchtime and I think you've probably seen sort of rumours on social media as well just
02:13 because obviously it all gets basically sorted and agreed, the terms and what have you and
02:19 then it's at that point that people start to get told about it and decisions are sort
02:24 of made following on from the decision for the manager to go. So that was kind of how
02:27 it accelerated and then you just go through the usual process really of you make sure
02:32 that you've spoken to numerous people, you would never ever just hear one thing and then
02:36 do a story on it. You're trying to get as much of the context as you possibly can and
02:41 like I say you speak to a number of people before you arrive at the decision that you're
02:45 comfortable that it's definitely correct and that's when we sort of, we at The Echo ran
02:50 it. What I would say is that although the actual decision as I say escalated really
02:55 quickly to date, I think it has something that's been sort of in the balance for a while.
03:00 I think if you remember back before Stoke City when results had been quite poor for
03:04 a little while, Bill did a really kind of explosive press conference where he sort of
03:09 said he wasn't getting the level of respect that his journey in the game deserved, suggested
03:14 that a lot of the reason why fans didn't want him was because of where he was from and he
03:18 also basically said as well that it didn't matter what he did and what the results and
03:21 performances were like, people would never take to him. My understanding is that went
03:25 down pretty badly in terms of the actual club and I think that Stoke game, I think this
03:30 is a scenario where if it had gone slightly differently, there's a chance the decision
03:34 would have been made then. Obviously Bill oversaw a bit of uptick in results and that
03:38 gave him some more time. But I think off the back of the weekend, the situation obviously
03:44 escalated, mainly because the results have been poor, but I also think there was an acceptance
03:49 that maybe the Tracheum handshake thing kind of underlined whatever the rights and wrongs
03:54 of it, whatever actually happened, that it was going to be really difficult for Bill
03:57 to turn this around and win fans over. So I think that was definitely a factor in it,
04:02 not actually what happened, I just think maybe it underlined to everyone that it wasn't going
04:05 to work. And I think normally we all sort of say mutual consent and we know that that's
04:10 not really what happens, a manager gets sacked by the club. I do think while this was a club
04:14 decision, I think it was genuinely a fairly two-way process. I think Michael Bill understood
04:19 that it was going to be really difficult for him to be a success here off the back of everything
04:22 that had gone on. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, Peter, but hopefully
04:26 it's given you a little bit of insight and thanks very much for sending it in.
04:30 What have we got next? Yeah, I've got one from James Dunlop, which I think the question
04:35 kind of reflects what a few of you have been asking, so I'll kind of put this all in one
04:39 category and hopefully it'll answer everyone's question. James says, "With hindsight, is
04:43 there anyone you think Kyrill/Speakman would have preferred to hire instead of Beale in
04:47 December and how much might they struggle to appoint someone as a head coach rather
04:51 than manager, especially given the strike and recruitment scenario?" I think this is
04:55 a really, really good question. I think there's two aspects to it. So firstly, going back
04:58 to December, I definitely think that Sunderland would have preferred to hire, I think they
05:04 had a few candidates that they really liked, as well as Beale. Beale interviewed really
05:08 well and they were genuinely enthusiastic, I think, about him, so that's important to
05:12 stress. But there were a few candidates I think they liked, primarily from abroad. Will
05:16 Steele was very obviously one of them. What they found was that for financial reasons,
05:22 logistic reasons, it was going to be really, really difficult to get them out of their
05:25 clubs at that stage in the season and that's why they went in a different direction. I
05:31 do think that makes you question why they decided to get rid of Mowbay when they did,
05:35 should you have done your due diligence on the people you might want to hire and their
05:38 availability beforehand? I would argue that maybe so. I'm sure the club would have their
05:42 reasons for why it panned out that way. But I definitely think that they would have preferred,
05:47 or their first choice, I think, after the interview process was either Will Steele or
05:51 someone of that profile. Throwing it forward to the summer, I think there's two things
05:56 to it. The kind of coach that they're looking to hire, probably someone younger, making
06:01 their way in the game. I think everyone understands now that the days of the manager have gone
06:05 and I think that everybody understands going into head coaching roles that you're not going
06:10 to have the final say on recruitment. Rather, I should say, you're not going to have a huge
06:15 central role in recruitment. I think actually most coaches are quite happy to work in that
06:20 environment. I don't see that being a major issue. Where I think there probably is a question
06:25 is around the fact that we know that Sunderland really want to keep as much as possible their
06:29 coaching team in place. I know that there have been some candidates in the past who've
06:34 been a bit unsure because they want to bring their own staff with them. I can see both
06:38 sides of the argument. I can see the club argument that you want stability and continuity,
06:41 particularly if you want to implement a playing style that will last for a long time. Then
06:46 you need to keep some of the coaching staff to keep those messages the same. You can also
06:49 understand anyone coming into the job wanting to bring some of their own staff with them
06:53 and I do think Beale maybe suffered from not having someone he trusted who he could lean
06:56 on. So, yeah, hopefully that answers that question a little bit. I do think Sunderland
07:01 will be an attractive job in the summer. I genuinely think that the calibre of player
07:05 that's here now and that tends to get recruited will really appeal to somebody. But I think
07:09 there are definitely some things to ponder. The lack of stability, I should say, is a
07:14 big difference this season. It's definitely something that Sunderland will work to correct
07:18 because they've done so much work to get rid of this image of chaotic Sunderland, Sunderland
07:23 in disorder, a place with a really clear strategy, real stability and a really settled place
07:28 to work. I think it's going to be a bit of a task to get that back. So, it's something
07:31 to think about going forward.
07:33 I've got a question here from Chris which I thought was a really interesting question
07:36 and one I wanted to talk about. He says, "Do the club need to consider fan sentiment when
07:40 looking for the next head coach? Beale was bad but his appointment brought negativity
07:44 from the start." I really, really like this question because I think it's a really interesting
07:48 point. One of the things that Sunderland sort of stressed when they appointed Beale, even
07:53 though he was quite unpopular with the supporters, was that, well, Tony Mowbray wasn't universally
07:58 popular when we appointed him, Alex Neil wasn't universally popular when we appointed him
08:03 and people broadly, including myself I should add, were really keen to see Roy Keane come
08:07 back and they sort of said, "Look, you've got to trust our processes, all the information
08:12 we have, the interview processes we do and so far it's worked out really well." And I
08:16 think that's largely fair. What I do think this episode has shown is that even in the
08:21 new era where managers aren't all powerful in charge of recruitment, it's not just about
08:27 coaching. The role of Sunderland's now head coach rather than manager is such an important
08:31 one because it's such a club of such a big size and of such intensity that leadership
08:36 skills, communication skills in particular, being able to build a rapport with the supporters,
08:41 being able to explain to them directly what's going on but without getting too high or too
08:45 low as us journalists and fans all get too high and too low at times if we're honest.
08:50 I think that's such an important quality. Tony Mowbray was really good at it, Alex Neil
08:54 was excellent at it. Going even further back to people like Sam Allardyce, their mood would
08:58 pretty much be exactly the same whether you won or lost and they also had such an easy
09:02 way of speaking to fans. And that's something that Sunderland need to consider I think.
09:07 It's not about appointing someone who's popular with the fans but it's about understanding
09:11 that in my view, getting someone who you think is going to communicate well with the supporters
09:16 and has those really strong communication skills actually helps you because it helps
09:21 you explain to supporters what you're doing, why you're making certain decisions and that
09:26 way you can get a buy-in that otherwise you can struggle with I think. So while I don't
09:30 necessarily agree that fan sentiment should be considered, I do think communication skills
09:35 and leadership skills, public facing skills, I do think that should be a massive part of
09:43 the thinking going forward and I hope that's something to take into consideration because
09:46 personally I think they underestimated that side of the job with Michael Beale.
09:50 So thanks very much for your question Chris. We've got a couple now, Tony and John, both
09:55 basically asking very similar questions which is along the lines of, is giving it to Mike
10:00 Dodds until the end of the season? Essentially accepting that Sunderland aren't going to
10:04 go up the season. I think there's two aspects to this. One is they genuinely really like
10:09 Mike Dodds and really rate him and he very, very nearly got given the job on an interim
10:13 basis until the end of the season after Marbury left and as I discussed their first target
10:17 wasn't there. They just felt it was a little bit soon from I think. So I'm going to be
10:21 fair and say they know he's popular with the players, which he is, they know he's won a
10:25 bit of popularity with the fans because he did a good job last time. I think they do
10:28 genuinely believe he gives them as good a chance as anyone and certainly an improved
10:32 chance of making it into the playoffs. What I would say is that all the challenges I spoke
10:37 about in my second answer in terms of getting their preferred candidate during the season,
10:42 all of those still apply now. So two months on it wasn't going to be any easier to hire
10:47 any of these other options that I talked about. So I think it's a little bit twofold. I don't
10:52 think it's an acceptance that the season is over, but I do think it's an acceptance that
10:56 the calibre or the kind of candidate they want is likely going to have to come in the
11:01 summer. So yeah, hopefully that answers that a little bit.
11:05 Let's see what else we have got. Ah yes, this is one from my colleague James who says, 'Why
11:13 is this football club not normal?' Well, I wish I had the answer to that other than I
11:20 suppose there's something about us that all keeps us coming back for more. I think the
11:23 one thing I would say, as I've just alluded to there, is that I think it's a club of real
11:28 intensity and you need someone who is really, really capable of managing those ups and downs.
11:33 And as I mentioned, I think we've seen some of the managers who've done that really effectively
11:37 in the last few years. And that's definitely something that we need to think about.
11:42 So the last one is, 'Given the failure in the interview process the last two times you've
11:46 done it, Neil was the right man but pretty clear Kane was the number one choice and then
11:50 Bale after. Do you have any faith we will get the right person or is it better we have
11:54 a number one choice and just go for them?' Well, I think what I would say to that is,
11:58 it's a really good question. I think that Alex Neil probably was Christian Speedman's
12:04 preferred choice. But what you've got to remember is that in a football club there's lots of
12:10 different opinions and lots of different views and it's not necessarily always easy to come
12:16 to one sort of uniform solution. There's a lot of conflict and voices. The other thing
12:21 I would say is that my personal view is I'm not sure Michael Bale was necessarily the
12:25 first choice after the interview process this time. I actually think that there were other
12:29 candidates after the interview process and Bale who did interview well was then turned
12:34 to after maybe those candidates didn't arrive. So I'm not entirely sure it's the interview
12:40 process itself. The two questions I would ask on the back of that is, one thing that
12:45 I have wondered is, A, why didn't they have a better sense of potential candidates' availability
12:52 before they did the interviews last time? I think that's a fair question. The second
12:55 interview that I find slightly strange, the aspect of the interview that I find slightly
12:59 strange is, we've seen the style of play has kind of become a bit more defensive, a bit
13:05 less open, a bit less exciting. Now I can sort of understand the reasons for that to
13:09 try and improve someone's defence, but it totally goes against what the club have been
13:12 saying about creating a really dynamic, front-foot, exciting style of play. It really makes me
13:17 interested as to what was sort of discussed about identity and style of play in the interview
13:22 process. That's a really interesting question that hopefully I'll get the chance to ask
13:25 at some point because I think that's a fairly legitimate concern. So again, I hope that
13:30 answers your question. I think generally someone's talent ID, both in terms of players, staff
13:35 and head coaches has been pretty good so far, but this is obviously a huge misstep and I
13:40 think that this appointment in the summer is going to be a huge one. So yeah, hopefully
13:45 I've brought a bit of insight into the day and the decision and what comes next and all
13:49 of that with this video. Thanks very much for sending your questions in. We'll be back
13:53 on Saturday with another one after the... Crikey, who are we playing on Saturday? Swansea City
13:58 at home. Sorry, it's been a long day. Yeah, I think that, listen, I think this is the
14:04 right decision for the club. I think the season's hanging on a knife edge a little bit and I
14:09 think it's vitally important that they get a string of results from the next few games.
14:13 I do think that Mike Dodds is probably pretty well placed to get a response from the players,
14:18 especially for Saturday's game, which is huge. So yeah, fingers crossed, but I think it does
14:23 clearly it's the shortest tenure in managerial history that can't all be about, at Sunderland
14:28 I should say, that can't all be about just the manager themselves. That has to ask questions
14:34 to the people who made those decisions and that's definitely going to be a big theme
14:37 going forward in the coming weeks and months. So yeah, hope I've answered your questions.
14:43 Thanks so much for sending them in. I'm really enjoying doing these because they're really
14:45 fantastic questions and I really enjoy getting my teeth stuck into them. And yeah, we'll
14:49 be back at the weekend. Thanks for watching.
14:51 [END]
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