Amanpour & Co. - February 1, 2024
A good old-fashioned literary hoax takes shape in the new hit movie “American Fiction.” It’s a biting satire about the flattening of Black voices. It has become one of the darlings of this year’s awards season, racking up five Oscar nominations including Best Picture, as well as a Best Actor nomination for Jeffrey Wright, who joins the show.
Transcript
00:01♪♪
00:04>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
00:07TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
00:08HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:09>> I CAN CERTAINLY IMAGINE A
00:10TIME IN FIVE YEARS OR TEN YEARS
00:12WHERE THESE TOOLS ARE JUST SO,
00:14SO POWERFUL THAT LEFT UNCHECKED,
00:16THEY COULD CAUSE ENORMOUS
00:18INSTABILITY.
00:18>> THE RISKS AND REWARDS OF
00:22ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AS
00:23DEEPFAKES OF TAYLOR SWIFT FLOOD
00:24THE INTERNET, I DISCUSS WITH
00:26MUSTAFA SULEYMAN, CO-FOUNDER OF
00:30THE A.I. LAB DEEPMIND.
00:31>>> PLUS --
00:32>> THEY WANT STEREOTYPES?
00:34I'LL GIVE THEM ONE.
00:35>> WHAT IS THIS?
00:37DEADBEAT DADS, RAPPERS, CRACK
00:41AND BLACK, RIGHT?
00:43>> JEFFREY WRIGHT LEADING THE
00:44CHARGE FOR "AMERICAN FICTION," A
00:46STINGING SATIRE ABOUT RACIAL
00:48STEREOTYPES.
00:48>>> ALSO AHEAD --
00:50>> THIS WAR IS ACTUALLY THE BEST
00:52INVESTMENT WE HAVE MADE IN OUR
00:54OWN NATIONAL SECURITY SINCE THE
00:55END OF THE COLD WAR.
00:58>> "WASHINGTON POST" NATIONAL
00:59SECURITY COLUMNIST MAX BOOT
01:01TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY
01:04SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE'S BATTLE
01:05WITH PUTIN IS IN AMERICA'S OWN
01:06INTERESTS.
01:12♪♪
01:13>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE
01:19POSSIBLE BY --
01:28THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT,
01:29JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS,
01:31CANDACE KING WEIR,
01:34THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA
01:35AND MICKEY STRAUS,
01:37MARK J. BLECHNER,
01:42THE FILMON M. D'AGOSTINO
01:43FOUNDATION
01:45SETON J. MELVIN,
01:47CHARLES ROSENBLUM,
01:49KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED
01:50TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
01:51IN OUR COMMUNITIES
01:52BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG
01:56ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
01:58THESE FUNDERS, AND BY
01:59CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
02:01STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
02:03THANK YOU.
02:08>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
02:09EVERYONE.
02:10I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN
02:11LONDON.
02:11THE THREAT OF VLADIMIR PUTIN
02:13LOOMS LARGE IN EUROPE, AND TODAY
02:15THE EU SHOWED THE WORLD THAT IT
02:17IS SERIOUS ABOUT STOPPING HIM BY
02:20PLEDGING TO GIVE ANOTHER $50
02:21BILLION EUROS.
02:22THAT'S $54 BILLION OF AID TO
02:23UKRAINE.
02:26PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY LOST NO TIME
02:28THANKING EUROPE.
02:29>> EUROPE, TODAY SENDS A SIGNAL
02:32ACROSS THE ATLANTIC AND THE
02:35WORLD ALL OVER THAT THE
02:37INTERNATIONAL RULES-BASED WORLD
02:40ORDER WILL WITHSTAND ALL
02:42CHALLENGES.
02:43EUROPE SETS THE TONE FOR GLOBAL
02:45AFFAIRS WITH ITS UNITY.
02:48>> OF COURSE, ACROSS THE
02:49ATLANTIC IS THE UNITED STATES,
02:51WHICH BY COMPARISON IS STILL
02:54STUCK IN POLITICAL GRIDLOCK OVER
02:55ITS SUPPORT FOR KYIV WHICH TWO
02:57YEARS AFTER RUSSIA'S INVASION IS
02:59STILL FIGHTING FOR ITS SURVIVAL.
03:03PRO-DEMOCRACY AMERICAN LAWMAKERS
03:04ARE ALL TOO AWARE OF THE DANGER
03:06PUTIN POSES ON THE BATTLEFIELD
03:08AND ALSO IN CYBERSPACE.
03:10THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS WARNING
03:11RUSSIA WILL CONDUCT, QUOTE,
03:13INFORMATION OPERATIONS AROUND
03:15WESTERN ELECTIONS THIS YEAR.
03:16IT COMES AS THE ERA OF A.I. IS
03:19UPON US.
03:21THE TWISTING OF TRUTH, EVERYONE
03:24STRUGGLING TO DISTINGUISH WHAT
03:25IS ACTUALLY REAL, TRUTH, OR
03:28LIES.
03:29MUSTAFA SULEYMAN IS AN
03:30ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE PIONEER.
03:31AS CO-FOUNDER OF THE A.I. LAB
03:35DEEPMIND, WHICH GOOGLE BOUGHT
03:35FOR HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF
03:37DOLLARS BACK IN 2014.
03:39HE WAS ALSO IN THE ROOM WHEN
03:41PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED NEW
03:43AYE SAFEGUARDS LAST YEAR.
03:46SULEYMAN SAYS IT IS AN
03:47INCREDIBLE TIME TO BE ALIVE
03:48DURING THIS TRANSITION TO A.I.,
03:50AND THAT THE WORLD STILL DOESN'T
03:52QUITE GRASP HOW BIG A DEAL IT
03:53REALLY IS.
03:54HE JOINED ME HERE IN THE STUDIO
03:56TO DISCUSS ALL THE UPS AND DOWNS
03:58WHICH HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT IN
03:59HIS BOOK "THE COMING WAVE."
04:03MUSTAFA SULEYMAN, WELCOME TO THE
04:05PROGRAM.
04:052023 LET'S SAY HAS BEEN THE YEAR
04:07OF A.I.
04:07EVERYBODY WAS FOCUSED ON IT.
04:09AND BY AND LARGE, IT WAS THE
04:14CATSIFYIZING OF A.I.
04:15PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT THE
04:16ELECTIONS FIRST AND FOREMOST.
04:17PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT KNOWING
04:18WHAT TRUTH.
04:19WHAT SHOULD WE KNOW RIGHT NOW
04:21AFTER THIS YEAR?
04:22>> LOOK, I THINK NATURALLY,
04:23WHENEVER WE ENCOUNTER A NEW
04:25TECHNOLOGY, WE INITIALLY FEEL
04:27ANXIOUS, AND WE'RE SORT OF
04:28AFRAID.
04:28WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS?
04:30HOW IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT
04:31SOCIETY?
04:31WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR JOBS AND
04:34PRIVACY AND TRUST.
04:35AND THEY'RE ALL GOOD QUESTIONS
04:37TO ASK, BUT I THINK IN THE PANIC
04:38AND THE HYPE PERHAPS WE'RE SORT
04:39OF LOSING SIGHT OF THE VERY
04:42PRACTICAL REAL CHALLENGES WE
04:43HAVE IN JUST GETTING THIS TO
04:44WORK, GETTING IT TO BE USEFUL,
04:47GETTING IT WIDELY AVAILABLE,
04:48MAKING IT CHEAP SO THAT ANYBODY
04:49CAN PLAY WITH IT AND EXPERIMENT.
04:52AND THEY'RE THE THINGS THAT I
04:53TEND TO FOCUS ON.
04:56MY NEW COMPANY IS CALLED
04:57INFLECTION AI.
04:58WE'VE BEEN GOING FUTURE A FEW
05:01YEARS.
05:01WE CREATED A CHAT BOX PI,
05:05PERSONAL INTELLIGENCE.
05:06IT'S INCREDIBLY WARM AND KIND
05:07AND SUPPORTIVE.
05:08IT HAS VERY HIGH EMOTIONAL
05:10INTELLIGENCE.
05:10>> EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE?
05:12I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE ONE THING
05:13WE HAVEN'T GOT YET, TO EMOTIONS
05:15IN A.I.
05:15>> IT'S A FUNNY THING.
05:17A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT EMOTIONS
05:17WERE GOING TO BE REALLY
05:20DIFFICULT FOR A.I.s TO
05:22REPLICATE.
05:23BUT IN FACT THEY'VE ACTUALLY
05:23BEEN ON THE EASIER END OF
05:24THINGS.
05:24IF YOU REALLY FOCUS ON CREATING
05:26AN A.I. THAT IS SMOOTH,
05:29CONVENTIONAL, FLUENT, VERY
05:30EVEN-HANDED AND BALANCED, IT
05:31TURNS OUT IT'S POSSIBLE TO DO
05:33IT.
05:33AND OUR A.I. PI IS REALLY,
05:34REALLY GOOD.
05:36PEOPLE SHOULD CHECK IT OUT.
05:37IT'S VERY, VERY KIND AND
05:39BALANCED AND FRIENDLY.
05:40AND I THINK THAT THAT
05:41DEMONSTRATES THAT WE CAN
05:43ACTUALLY CONTROL THESE A.I.
05:45SYSTEMS.
05:46WE AREN'T AT THE MERCY OF THEM.
05:47THIS IS NOT SOME TECHNOLOGY THAT
05:48IS TAKING PLACE BEYOND US OR
05:51OUTSIDE OF US.
05:53THIS ISN'T AN EMERGENT EFFECT OF
05:54LIFE.
05:55THIS IS A TOOL.
05:56THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE MAKE.
05:58THESE ARE REAL PRODUCTS THAT WE
05:59HAVE CONTROL.
05:59>> AND THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT
06:01PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT, THAT
06:02WE ACTUALLY EVENTUALLY WILL NOT
06:04HAVE CONTROL, THAT IT IS
06:06FRANKENSTEIN AND THE MONSTER AND
06:07THE WHOLE CAUTIONARY TALE OF IT
06:10TURNING ON ITS OWN CREATOR.
06:11YOU HAVE NO WORRIES ABOUT THAT
06:12RIGHT NOW, EVEN FOR THE LET'S
06:14SAY -- LET'S JUST SAY THE
06:15AMERICAN ELECTION.
06:16WE'VE ALREADY SEEN A FAKE
06:18ROBOCALL USING A BIDEN VOICE
06:20WHICH WASN'T HIS.
06:22>> IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU SAVE
06:23YOUR VOTE FOR THE NOVEMBER
06:25ELECTION.
06:25VOTING THIS TUESDAY ONLY ENABLES
06:27THE REPUBLICANS IN THEIR QUEST
06:29TO ELECT DONALD TRUMP AGAIN.
06:32>> I MEAN, THAT EITHER IS
06:36BIDEN'S VOICE ALL PATCHED
06:38TOGETHER, OR IT'S A REALLY GOOD
06:41FACSIMILE.
06:42AND IT WAS TRYING TO TELL
06:44DEMOCRATS IN NEW HAMPSHIRE DON'T
06:45BOTHER, WAIT UNTIL NOVEMBER.
06:46THAT'S SCARY STUFF.
06:47NOBODY IS CONTROLLING THAT.
06:49>> ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
06:49>> OR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING
06:52FAKED AREN'T CONTROLLING IT.
06:53>> OF COURSE.
06:54NEW TECHNOLOGIES BRING NEW
06:56THREATS.
06:56THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
06:57AND THIS IS A NEW THREAT THAT WE
06:59ALL HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH.
07:01WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR AN A.I. TO
07:04PARTICIPATE IN THE ELECTORAL
07:06PROCESS?
07:06WE CLEARLY SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT.
07:07FOR ALL THE WEAKNESSES OF THE
07:09DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, DEMOCRACY IS
07:10FOR HUMANS.
07:13CHAT BOX, A.I.-GENERATED TOOLS,
07:16THESE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO
07:18PARTICIPATE IN THE ELECTIONS.
07:19AND THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE
07:20ACTUALLY HAVE MANY, MANY CHOKE
07:22POINTS AROUND WHICH WE CAN FOCUS
07:24THESE KINDS OF POLICIES.
07:25ALL OF THE BIG TECH COMPANIES
07:27PROVIDE ACCESS TO THESE
07:29SERVICES.
07:29AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE AN
07:31OBLIGATION ON THEM, WHICH I
07:32THINK THEY SHOULD EMBRACE
07:34PROACTIVELY BEFORE REGULATION
07:36REQUIRES IT TO PREVENT CHATBOX
07:39AND OTHER KINDS OF A.I.s FROM
07:42IMITATING A POLITICIAN OR EVEN
07:44PROMOTING OR ADVOCATING FOR SOME
07:47POLITICAL PARTY OR AN IDEA.
07:49A.I. SHOULDN'T BE PARTICIPATING
07:49IN OUR ELECTIONS.
07:50>> AS YOU KNOW, LIES TRAVEL
07:55FASTER AND STICK MORE STICKIER
07:57THAN THE TRUTH OFTEN.
07:58PEOPLE ARE JUST SUSCEPTIBLE TO
08:00LIES, TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES, TO
08:01THAT KIND OF THING.
08:03AND AS YOU ALSO KNOW, AND I
08:05WONDER WHETHER IT WORRIES YOU,
08:07YOU JUST SAID A.I., AND I'M
08:09GOING TAKE THE TECH BROS, PUT
08:12THEM IN THAT BOX.
08:13THEY HAVE NOT REGULATED
08:14THEMSELVES.
08:15THEY HAVEN'T.
08:15WHY SHOULD WE TRUST ANY MORE
08:17THAT YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO
08:18REGULATE AND FIGURE IT OUT
08:19BEFORE YOU GET REGULATED?
08:21AS YOU KNOW IN THIS PART OF THE
08:22WORLD, THEY REGULATE.
08:23THEY WANT TO REGULATE BECAUSE
08:24THEY KNOW, YOU KNOW, LEFT UP TO
08:25THE CREATORS, IT'S THE PROFIT
08:28MOTIVE.
08:28>> SO I THINK WE NEED
08:31REGULATION.
08:31I JUST THINK THAT REGULATION IS
08:33GOING TO TAKE A WHILE, AS IT
08:35ALWAYS DOES, AND OFTEN MISS THE
08:37MARK, AS IT OFTEN DOES,
08:39UNFORTUNATELY.
08:40IT TENDS TO BE REGULATING THE
08:42LOST WAVE OF TECHNOLOGY.
08:42AND WE NEED AGILE, TECHNICAL,
08:46BALANCED REGULATORS THAT ARE
08:47DEEPLY ENGAGED AT THE CUTTING
08:49EDGE OF A.I., AND WE AS A
08:52COMPANY HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY
08:55FORWARD IN TRYING TO EDUCATE
08:57REGULATORS, ADVOCATE WITH THEM.
08:58THE DOWNSIDE, THAT'S GOING TAKE
08:59SOME TIME.
09:00IN PRACTICE, I THINK IT IS A
09:01SENSIBLE THING FOR GOOGLE AND
09:04FACEBOOK, TIKTOK AND THE BIG
09:06TECH COMPANIES TO JUST DECLARE
09:07THAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO
09:08EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER.
09:09THEY'RE GOING TO DO EVERY BEST
09:11EFFORT THEY CAN IMAGINE TO TRY
09:12TO PREVENT THIS KIND OF
09:14IMITATION ON THE PLATFORM.
09:15THEY'VE DONE IT BEFORE.
09:16WE'VE SEEN IT BEFORE.
09:17AFTER, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS
09:19REAL-TIME STREAMING OF MASS
09:20SHOOTINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE
09:22CHRISTCHURCH MASSACRE IN NEW
09:23ZEALAND, FOR EXAMPLE, THE
09:25PLATFORMS GOT VERY GOOD AT
09:26DETECTING WHEN THAT WAS ABOUT TO
09:28HAPPEN.
09:28AND WITHIN SECONDS CAN NOW SHUT
09:29IT OFF AND PREVENT IT.
09:30SO THIS IS THE SAME.
09:31>> IF THEY WANT TO DO IT.
09:32YOU'RE RIGHT.
09:33THE TECHNOLOGY IS THERE, AS IT
09:35ALWAYS, BUT DO YOU WANT TO DO
09:36IT.
09:36I MEAN, FOR INSTANCE, THE TAYLOR
09:38SWIFT STUFF, YOU KNOW, THE
09:40DEEPFAKES WHICH EVERYBODY IS NOW
09:42TALKING ABOUT ON X I GUESS IT
09:43WAS, TWITTER, ELON MUSK.
09:45WHAT WORRIES YOU ABOUT THAT?
09:48AND PLUS THESE TECH PEOPLE BEING
09:51IN FRONT OF CONGRESS BECAUSE
09:53PARENTS ARE COMPLAINING THAT SO
09:54MUCH OF THIS STUFF IS SENDING
09:57THEIR CHILDREN INTO TERRIBLE
09:59MENTAL HEALTH SPIRALS UP TO THE
10:00POINT OF SUICIDE.
10:02>> I THINK THAT THIS IS A MOMENT
10:04WHEN TECH COMPANIES HAVE TO ACT
10:07PROACTIVELY.
10:07I CAN ONLY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
10:08FOR THE TOOLS THAT I PUT OUT IN
10:10THE WORLD.
10:10WE'VE DESIGNED AN A.I. PI, OUR
10:13PERSONAL INTELLIGENCE WHICH IS
10:15GENUINELY WARM AND EMPATHETIC
10:16AND BALANCED.
10:17IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO GET PI
10:19TO SAY SOMETHING OBNOXIOUS OR
10:21OFFENSIVE OR BE REALLY BIASED IN
10:23ONE DIRECTION OR ANOTHER.
10:25IT'S PATIENT.
10:26IT'S NONJUDGMENTAL.
10:27IT WILL TALK TO YOU ABOUT ALL
10:28KINDS OF THINGS YOU COULD
10:30POSSIBLY IMAGINE.
10:31THAT DEMONSTRATES THAT IT'S
10:33POSSIBLE TO CREATE THE KINDS OF
10:35A.I.s WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE IN
10:37OUR WORLD THAT MAKE FOR A
10:39CONSTRUCTIVE AND WARM LIFE.
10:40AND SO I THINK THAT ALL WE CAN
10:42DO IS TRY AND BRING TO BEAR MORE
10:44AND MORE PRESSURE ON PLATFORMS
10:45THAT DON'T TAKE THOSE KINDS OF
10:47APPROACHES.
10:47>> ANOTHER THING THAT PEOPLE ARE
10:49WORRIED ABOUT, UNIONS ARE
10:50WORRIED ABOUT IS THE LOSS OF
10:51JOBS TO A.I.
10:52SO YOU CAN BE AS EMPATHETIC,
10:54WARM, CUDDLY AS YOU WANT, BUT
10:56THE IMF FUND SAYS THE A.I. IS
10:57SET TO AFFECT NEARLY 40% OF ALL
11:01JOBS.
11:02AND UPS IS AXING 12,000 JOBS.
11:04THIS IS WHAT THE CEO SAYS.
11:06"TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED SO MUCH
11:07IN THE PAST YEAR WHEN YOU THINK
11:09ABOUT THE ADVENT OF GENERATIVE
11:14A.I.."
11:14SHE IS REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THE
11:17CHANGES WILL MEAN.
11:17THEY WANT TO LAY OFF 12,000
11:19PEOPLE AND BE VERY EXCITED.
11:21HOW DO YOU REASSURE PEOPLE IF
11:23IT'S POSSIBLE THAT IT'S NOT JUST
11:25GOING TO BE WHOLESALE LAYOFFS?
11:27I MEAN 40% ACCORDING TO THE IMF.
11:29WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE PEOPLE?
11:30>> I THINK MORE THAN TWO-THIRDS
11:32OF CEOs INTERVIEWED AT DAVOS A
11:34FEW WEEKS AGO CAME TO THE SAME
11:37CONCLUSION, THAT THIS IS
11:37FUNDAMENTALLY A LABOR REPLACING
11:39TECHNOLOGY IN THE LONG-TERM.
11:40IN THE MEDIUM TERM, OVER THE
11:43NEXT DECADE, IT'S GOING TO BE
11:44LABOR AUGMENTING.
11:45IT WILL MAKE PEOPLE SMARTER,
11:46MORE PRODUCTIVE, MORE EFFICIENT
11:48WITH THEIR TIME, MORE ACCURATE
11:50WITH THEIR ENGAGEMENTS IN
11:52WORKING IN AN EVERYDAY OFFICE OR
11:53ORGANIZATION.
11:54BUT IN THE VERY LONG-TERM, THAT
11:57SAME A.I. IS GOING TO LEARN TO
11:59DO THOSE TASKS MORE EFFECTIVELY
12:01THAN A REGULAR HUMAN.
12:02AND THAT ON ITS FACE SHOULD
12:04DRIVE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF
12:06VALUE THAT IS GOOD FOR
12:07EVERYBODY.
12:07WE'RE GOING SEE THE MOST
12:08PRODUCTIVE DECADE IN THE HISTORY
12:09OF OUR SPECIES.
12:10WE'RE ABLE TO DO MUCH, MUCH MORE
12:12WITH LESS.
12:12THE QUESTION IS HOW DOES THAT
12:14VALUE GET REDISTRIBUTED.
12:15AND THAT'S THE AGE OLD
12:17CHALLENGE.
12:18IF WE LEAVE THAT JUST TO THE
12:20MARKET, TO ITS OWN DEVICES OVER
12:22THE NEXT TWO OR THREE OR FOUR
12:24DECADES, THEN WE WILL SEE WHAT
12:25WE'VE SEEN IN THE LAST FIVE
12:27DECADES, WHICH IS THE RETURNS
12:29THE CAPITAL COMPOUND FAR MORE
12:31QUICKLY THAN LABOR'S WAGES CAN
12:33GROW.
12:33IN FACT, WE'VE ACTUALLY SEEN A
12:35STAGNATION OF WAGES OVER THE
12:36LAST FOUR DECADES.
12:38AND WE'VE SEEN MASSIVE GROWTH
12:40AND CONCENTRATION IN CAPITAL.
12:41AND THIS IS A TOOL THAT SHIFTS
12:44VALUE FROM LABOR TO CAPITAL,
12:46BECAUSE AN A.I. IS ESSENTIALLY A
12:48CAPITAL FORM OF LABOR.
12:51IT'S AN INTELLIGENT INTERACTIVE
12:53DYNAMIC INTERFACE THAT GETS
12:54THINGS DONE JUST LIKE A PROJECT
12:56MANAGER OR AN ASSISTANT GETS
12:58THINGS DONE.
12:59>> SO YOU'RE BASICALLY SAYING IN
13:00THE NEXT TEN YEARS, IT WILL BE
13:01VERY, VERY PRODUCTIVE.
13:02THERE WILL BE A LOT OF NEW JOBS
13:03CREATED.
13:04>> RIGHT.
13:04>> SO A.I. WILL CREATE NEW JOBS.
13:07WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE PEOPLE?
13:09WHAT SHOULD THOSE PEOPLE EXPECT
13:10IF AFTER THAT DECADE OF
13:11PRODUCTIVITY THEY ARE REPLACED
13:13BY THIS A.I. BECOMES CAPITAL?
13:15>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TO
13:16START THINKING ABOUT IS HOW TO
13:18ASK EMPLOYERS TO DO JOB SHARES,
13:21FOR EXAMPLE.
13:22OR TO BY DEFAULT INTRODUCE A.I.s
13:26THAT ARE COMPANIONS AND AIDES,
13:28SUPPORTS TO AN EXISTING ROLE, OR
13:30HOW WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO CREATE
13:32NEW TASKS IN THE WORKPLACE THAT
13:34ACTUALLY AUGMENT, YOU KNOW, AN
13:36A.I., WHERE YOU CAN ACTUALLY USE
13:38AN A.I. AS IN ADDITION TO WHAT
13:40YOU DO RATHER THAN A
13:41REPLACEMENT.
13:41THOSE ARE GOING TO BE DECISIONS
13:42THAT WORKERS HAVE TO ENCOURAGE
13:46OWNERS OF CAPITAL TO MAKE, AND
13:47THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO BE
13:48DECISIONS THAT REGULATORS HAVE
13:49TO START THINKING ABOUT.
13:50>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE
13:52AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS, OR
13:54ACTUALLY ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO
13:55PLAY A DESTRUCTIVE ROLE IN
13:57SOCIETY AND ON THE WORLD STAGE.
13:58SO IF THE LAST ELECTION WAS THE,
14:02YOU KNOW, THE RUSSIAN
14:03INTERFERENCE USING SOCIAL MEDIA
14:04AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER BOTS AND
14:06THIS AND THAT IN THE ELECTION,
14:08THIS YEAR IT LOOKS LIKE
14:10PRESIDENT PUTIN, HE FULLY
14:12UNDERSTANDS WHAT'S AT STAKE.
14:13IN HIS END OF YEAR PRESSER, HE
14:17DEMONSTRATED THE DANGERS.
14:19AND HE WAS ASKED -- OR HE ASKED
14:21HIMSELF A QUESTION.
14:22"DO YOU HAVE A LOT OF DOUBLES?"
14:25APPARENTLY THIS THING SAID TO
14:26HIM.
14:26TO WHICH THE REAL PUTIN SAID,
14:28"ONLY ONE PERSON MUST BE LIKE ME
14:30AND SPEAK WITH MY VOICE, AND
14:31THAT WILL BE ME."
14:32SO HE IS BASICALLY LAYING DOWN
14:34THE LAW, RIGHT?
14:35HE IS SAYING DON'T EVEN THINK
14:36ABOUT IMITATING ME, FOLKS.
14:38HOW DOES THAT SIT WITH YOU?
14:39>> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY FOR HIM,
14:43HE'S GOT NO CHANCE, BECAUSE
14:44THESE TECHNOLOGIES BY DEFAULT
14:47PROLIFERATE.
14:47THEY SPREAD FAR AND WIDE BECAUSE
14:48THEY'RE USEFUL AND EVERYBODY
14:50DEMANDS THEM.
14:51SO PEOPLE REPRODUCE THEM IN OPEN
14:52SOURCE MODELS, SOFTWARE AND CODE
14:55THAT CAN BE REPRODUCED FOR FREE,
14:57COPIED AND MADE WIDELY AVAILABLE
14:58ON THE INTERNET.
15:01RIGHT.
15:01AND SO UNCHECKED, THAT IS THE
15:03DEFAULT TRAJECTORY OF THIS
15:05TECHNOLOGY.
15:06HOWEVER, WE HAVE CHANGED A
15:08SIMILAR COURSE MANY TIMES BEFORE
15:10IN HISTORY.
15:11CONSIDER ONLINE MUSIC, FOR
15:12EXAMPLE.
15:13FOR A WHILE, TORRENTING BACK IN
15:17THE 2000s AND '90s WAS THE
15:21DEFAULT WAY PEOPLE WOULD ACCESS
15:22MUSIC AND FILM.
15:23PEOPLE WOULD PEER TO PEER SHARE
15:24THAT KIND OF CONTENT.
15:25WE HAVE THE SAME THING GOING ON
15:27AT THE MOMENT IN OPEN SOURCE.
15:28WHAT WE NEED TO SEE IS THE
15:30ARRIVAL OF MUCH MORE CONTROLLED
15:31SYSTEMS THAT REGULATE THE SPREAD
15:32OF THIS KIND OF VALUE.
15:34IT CAN'T JUST HAPPEN COMPLETELY
15:36UNCHECKED.
15:37AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE'RE IN
15:38THAT MOMENT RIGHT NOW, BUT I CAN
15:40CERTAINLY IMAGINE A TIME IN FIVE
15:42YEARS OR TEN YEARS WHERE THESE
15:43TOOLS ARE JUST SO, SO POWERFUL
15:46THAT LEFT UNCHECKED, THEY COULD
15:48CAUSE ENORMOUS INSTABILITY.
15:50>> YOU READ HEADLINES, THE ONE
15:53ABOUT OPEN AI CHANGING ITS USAGE
15:55POLICIES TO REMOVE ITS BAN ON
15:57USING CHATGPT FOR MILITARY AND
15:59WARFARE.
15:59THAT WAS REPORTED IN THE
16:00INTERCEPT.
16:00WHEN WE GET TO THOSE KINDS OF
16:02LIFE AND DEATH ISSUES, WHAT
16:03WORRIES DO YOU HAVE, AND HOW CAN
16:05THAT BE CONTROLLED?
16:06>> PERSONALLY, I'VE LONG
16:08CAMPAIGNED AGAINST THE USE OF
16:09A.I. FOR LETHAL AUTONOMOUS
16:11WEAPONS.
16:12WHEN DEEPMIND WAS INQUIRED, WE
16:15MADE IT A CONDITION OF OUR
16:17ACQUISITION THE TECHNOLOGIES
16:19DEVELOPED AT DEEPMIND COULDN'T
16:20BE USED BY GOOGLE FOR STATE
16:22SURVEILLANCE PURPOSES OR FOR
16:24MILITARY OR THE LETHAL FORCE
16:26PURPOSES.
16:26AND I'M STILL A GREAT BELIEVER
16:27IN THAT.
16:28I THINK PEOPLE WILL END UP USING
16:29THESE TOOLS FOR THOSE PURPOSES,
16:31BUT WE HAVE TO BE REALLY
16:33CAREFUL, BECAUSE THEY'RE VERY,
16:34VERY POWERFUL.
16:35AND IF THEY'RE WIDELY AVAILABLE,
16:37AND IF MILITARIES START
16:39INTEGRATING THEM INTO THEIR
16:40SYSTEMS, IT WILL REDUCE THE COST
16:41OF GOING TO WAR AND MAKE
16:43CONFLICT I THINK MUCH MORE
16:44LIKELY.
16:45>> WHAT IS YOUR BIGGEST HOPE IN
16:47THE THING THAT GIVES YOU THE
16:48GREATEST SORT OF, YOU KNOW,
16:51EXCITEMENT FOR THE POSITIVE USE
16:52OF A.I.?
16:53YOU'VE SAID IN THE MIDTERM IT
16:54WILL CREATE A LOT A LOT OF JOBS.
16:56BUT WHERE WILL WE SEE IT USED TO
16:58ITS MAXIMUM AND POSITIVE
16:59ADVANTAGE?
17:00>> YOU KNOW, WE ARE REDUCING THE
17:02BARRIER TO ENTRY TO ACCESS
17:04PERFECT INFORMATION.
17:05EVERYBODY IS GOING TO HAVE A
17:07PERFECT TUTOR IN THEIR POCKET
17:09THAT CAN TALK TO YOU ABOUT
17:11EVERYTHING THAT IS INTERESTING
17:12AND ENTERTAINING AND INFORMATIVE
17:13TO YOU IN YOUR STYLE, IN YOUR
17:16LANGUAGE.
17:17EVERYONE IS GOING TO GET MUCH,
17:19MUCH, MUCH SMARTER BECAUSE OF
17:20THIS INTERACTIVE INTERFACE.
17:22OUR A.I. PI IS REALLY GOING TO
17:24BE LIKE A CHIEF OF STAFF FOR
17:25YOUR LIFE.
17:26IT WILL BE A SCHEDULER, A
17:28PLANNER.
17:29WHO LIKES ORDERING THE GROCERIES
17:31AND PLANNING YOU A VACATION AND
17:33DOING YOUR ADMINISTRATION?
17:34YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A PERSONAL
17:35ASSISTANT IN YOUR POCKET TO HELP
17:37ORGANIZE YOUR LIFE.
17:38>> AND YOU DON'T THINK THAT WILL
17:39MAKE US DUMBER AND LAZIER?
17:42LIKE THE CONVERSATION AROUND
17:43ALGORITHMS RIGHT NOW, JUST
17:45TRAINING US ALL TO GO INTO EVER
17:49LESS DEMANDING THOUGHT PATTERNS?
17:49AND CHOICES?
17:50>> I ACTUALLY THINK IN A WAY IF
17:52YOU COMPARE US AS A SPECIES TO
17:53WHO WE WERE BEFORE THE SECOND
17:55WORLD WAR, OR WHO WE WERE IN THE
17:58'70s, YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOW A
18:00MUCH MORE TOLERANT, A MUCH MORE
18:03OPEN-MINDED IN GENERAL SPECIES.
18:04YOU LOOK ON EVERY FRONT, RACE,
18:07AND SEXUALITY AND GENDER.
18:08WE'RE FORGIVING.
18:10WE'RE RESPECTFUL.
18:11I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE WE'VE HAD
18:12MASS ACCESS TO INFORMATION.
18:13WE'RE AWARE OF ONE ANOTHER AT
18:15HUGE SCALE.
18:16AND THAT'S REALLY CHANGED OUR
18:17VALUES.
18:17I THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE NO
18:19DIFFERENT.
18:19WE DIDN'T GET DUMBER BECAUSE OF
18:25THE CALK LATER.
18:26I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING GET
18:28DUMBER BECAUSE OF A.I.s.
18:30>> MR. MUSTAFA SULEYMAN, THANK
18:32YOU FOR JOINING.
18:33>> THANKS.
18:34>>> TO A DIFFERENT KIND OF FAKE,
18:35A GOOD OLD-FASHIONED LITERARY
18:37HOAX THAT TAKES SHAPE IN THE HIT
18:39NEW MOVIE "AMERICAN FICTION."
18:40A BITING SATIRE ABOUT THE
18:43FLATTENING OF BLACK VOICES.
18:44IT'S BECOME ONE OF THE DARLINGS
18:46OF THIS YEAR'S AWARDS SEASON,
18:48WRAPPING UP FIVE OSCAR
18:50NOMINATION, INCLUDING BEST
18:52PICTURE AS WELL AS BEST ACTOR
18:53FOR JEFFREY WRIGHT.
18:53HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
18:55>> THEY WANT A BLACK BOOK.
18:57>> THEY HAVE ONE.
18:58I'M BLACK AND IT'S MY BOOK.
19:00LOOK AT WHAT THEY EXPECT US TO
19:01WRITE.
19:01>> WOULD YOU READ AN EXCERPT?
19:04>> YO, SHARONDA, WHERE ARE YOU
19:06GOING IN A HURRY?
19:09>> IF YOU'VE GOTS TO KNOW, I'M
19:11GOING TO THE PHARMACY.
19:13♪
19:13>> IF THEY WANT STEREOTYPES,
19:15I'LL GIVE THEM ONE.
19:17>> WHAT IS THIS?
19:19>> DEADBEAT DADS, RAPPERS,
19:21CRACK.
19:21THAT'S BLACK, RIGHT?
19:22>> NOBODY IS GOING TO PUBLISH
19:23THIS.
19:23>> I JUST WANT TO RUB THEIR
19:25NOSES IN IT.
19:25>> WE LOVE IT.
19:26>> WHAT?
19:27>> JEFFREY WRIGHT JOINED ME HERE
19:28IN THE STUDIO TO DISCUSS THE
19:30MOVIE AND HIS ROAD TO THE ROLE
19:31OF A LIFETIME.
19:33JEFFREY WRIGHT, WELCOME TO THE
19:35PROGRAM.
19:36>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
19:36I'M SO PLEASED TO BE HERE.
19:38>> WE'RE VERY PLEASED TO HAVE
19:39YOU.
19:39THIS IS THE BREAKOUT FILM OF THE
19:41MOMENT.
19:41AND I KNOW YOU'RE HERE PROMOTING
19:43IT FOR THE UK RELEASE.
19:44>> YEAH.
19:45>> WHICH IS THIS WEEKEND.
19:46DID YOU ENJOY PLAYING THIS ROLE,
19:58THELONIUS MONK.
19:58>> I HAD THE BEST TIME WORKING
20:01ON A FILM SIMPLY BECAUSE WE MADE
20:03THIS WITH SUCH PASSION.
20:07WE ALL FELT VERY CLOSELY RELATED
20:12TO THE ISSUES OF THE STORY.
20:13WE ALSO FELT THIS IS A STORY
20:14THAT WANTED TO BE TOLD, THAT WAS
20:15A STORY FOR THE TIMES.
20:17AND SO WE DOVE INTO THIS.
20:19IT WAS SMALL FILM.
20:20WE SHOT IN 26 DAYS.
20:21>> THAT I COULDN'T BELIEVE WHEN
20:22I READ THAT.
20:23>> BUT WE INVESTED A LOT OF
20:25OURSELVES IN IT.
20:25>> GIVEN THAT YOU ALL LOVED IT
20:27SO MUCH AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
20:27THE ISSUES AND THE STORY FOR OUR
20:29TIME.
20:29JUST IN YOUR WORDS, DESCRIBE IT.
20:31GIVE ME A SYNOPSIS.
20:33WE'VE BEEN SAYING SATIRICAL,
20:35THIS AMAZING SORT OF SATIRE ON
20:37THE STEREOTYPES OF RACE.
20:38>> IT IS THAT.
20:40IT'S SATIRICAL SOCIAL
20:42COMMENTARY, A LOT OF LAUGHS.
20:43BUT THERE IS A THROUGH-LINE OF
20:45EMOTION THAT I THINK IS
20:47SURPRISING FOR AUDIENCES.
20:48IT'S A FILM ABOUT A MAN WHO IS A
20:50WRITER, ALSO A PROFESSOR OF
20:53ENGLISH.
20:53BUT HE TENDS TO WRITE FROM A
20:56PERSPECTIVE THAT'S NOT
20:58NECESSARILY MARKETABLE, AT LEAST
20:59IN HIS CASE.
21:00HE WRITES BOOKS THAT ARE A BIT
21:03ESOTERIC, YOU KNOW, REWORKINGS
21:05OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY AND THINGS
21:07LIKE THIS.
21:07AND THE PUBLISHING WORLD SAYS TO
21:09HIM THAT'S NOT QUITE BLACK
21:11ENOUGH.
21:11WHY ARE YOU WRITING ABOUT THIS?
21:14IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BLACK
21:14EXPERIENCE.
21:15SO OUT OF FRUSTRATION HE WRITES
21:17A NOVEL THAT HE THINKS WILL MEET
21:18THEIR SATISFACTION.
21:19>> I WANT TO JUST TAKE THIS
21:21MOMENT TO EXPRESS YOUR
21:22FRUSTRATION AS THE CHARACTER
21:23WHEN YOU GO TO A BOOKSTORE.
21:24>> SURE.
21:25>> AND YOU SEE WHERE YOUR BOOK
21:27HAS BEEN STACKED IN THE
21:27BOOKSTORE.
21:28>> SURE.
21:29>> HERE WE GO.
21:30>> YEAH.
21:31WAIT A MINUTE, WHY ARE THESE
21:32BOOKS HERE?
21:33>> I'M NOT SURE.
21:35I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THIS AUTHOR
21:37ELLISON IS BLACK.
21:38>> THAT'S ME.
21:40ELLISON.
21:42>> YEAH.
21:43>> HE IS ME, AND HE AND I ARE
21:46BLACK.
21:46>> OH, BINGO.
21:47>> NO BINGO, NED.
21:49THESE BOOKS HAVE NOTHING TO DO
21:51WITH AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES.
21:52THEY'RE JUST LITERATURE.
21:53THE BLACKEST THING ABOUT THIS
21:54ONE IS THE INK.
21:58>> I DON'T DECIDE WHICH SECTIONS
22:00THE BOOKS GO IN.
22:02NO ONE HERE DOES.
22:03THAT'S HOW CHAIN STORES WORK.
22:04>> RIGHT.
22:05>> SO IT'S CONSTANTLY THIS,
22:06RIGHT?
22:07IT'S NOT MY FAULT, IT'S NOT MY
22:08FAULT.
22:09BUT THERE YOU ARE, AND THIS IS
22:10THE FIRST STEREOTYPE YOU'RE
22:12CONFRONTING IN THIS FILM.
22:12>> YES, YES.
22:13AND OUT OF FRUSTRATION, HE
22:16DECIDES TO WRITE A BOOK THAT HE
22:17THINKS WILL APPEAL TO THE
22:21PUBLISHERS' TASTES, A BOOK FOR
22:22THE MASSES.
22:23HE WRITES UNDER AN ASSUMED NAME,
22:27THIS CARICATURE THAT HE CREATES
22:30IN HIS HEAD, AND HE IS FORCED
22:32NOW TO LEAD A DUAL LIFE BECAUSE
22:34THAT BOOK BECOMES THE
22:36BEST-SELLING OF HIS CAREER.
22:38>> LET'S GO BACK TO THE
22:40BEGINNING.
22:40BECAUSE YOUR FRUSTRATION START,
22:41MONK'S FRUSTRATION STARTS WITH
22:42AN INCIDENT IN THE ENGLISH
22:44LITERATURE CLASS.
22:45I THINK IT'S AN ENGLISH
22:46LITERATURE CLASS YOU'RE
22:47TEACHING.
22:47>> YES.
22:48>> AND A WHITE STUDENT GETS ALL
22:49BENT OUT OF SHAPE.
22:50>> YES.
22:51A SOUTHERN LITERATURE CLASS.
22:52AND THERE IS A WORD ON THE
22:55BLACKBOARD BEHIND HIM THAT THIS
22:59YOUNG WOMAN FINDS TO BE
23:01OFFENSIVE.
23:01SHE IS A BIT OVERLY SENSITIVE.
23:04>> I CAN'T REMEMBER THE WORD.
23:05CAN WE SAY IT?
23:06OH, IT'S THE N-WORD.
23:07OH, YEAH.
23:08>> IT'S FROM A BOOK CALLED "THE
23:12ARTIFICIAL [ BLEEP ]" BY
23:14FLANNERY O'CONNER.
23:15>> WE'RE GOING HAVE TO BLEEP
23:16YOU.
23:17>> BUT THAT'S THE NAME OF THE
23:19BOOK.
23:19IT'S AMERICAN SOUTHERN GOTHIC.
23:21SO WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THAT
23:24HISTORY, HE'S TEACHING THIS BOOK
23:27AND THE WORD'S ON THE BOARD
23:27BEHIND HIM.
23:30THAT WAS THE FIRST SCENE
23:32OBVIOUSLY THAT I READ.
23:34IT'S THE FIRST SCENE IN THE
23:35SCRIPT, AND I WAS HOOKED
23:37IMMEDIATELY, BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH
23:40A FLUENT CONVERSATION THAT THE
23:41FILM IS HAVING ABOUT A DIFFICULT
23:44CONVERSATION AROUND RACE,
23:45CONTEXT, LANGUAGE, AND HISTORY,
23:48A CONVERSATION THAT'S HAPPENING
23:49IN CLASSROOMS ACROSS AMERICA,
23:51ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
23:52IT'S REALLY AT THE CENTER OF THE
23:54NATIONAL DISCOURSE IN MANY WAYS,
23:56THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE.
23:57BUT IT'S NOT A CONVERSATION THAT
23:58WE HAVE VERY WELL.
23:59>> NO.
24:00IN FACT, WE HAVE JUST HAD THIS
24:02CONVERSATION WHICH GOES TO THE
24:04HEART OF THE ACTUAL ISSUE,
24:06BECAUSE I CAN'T USE THE WORD
24:08THAT YOU JUST USED.
24:09SO I HAVE ALSO GOT TO BLEEP IT
24:11OUT TO AVOID, YOU KNOW,
24:14SENSITIVITIES BY AUDIENCES AND
24:17PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE
24:18NAME OF THAT ACTUAL BOOK THAT
24:20WAS WRITTEN ALL THOSE MANY YEARS
24:21AGO.
24:22>> WELL, THERE WAS A LINE IN --
24:24THAT WE CONSIDERED IN THE MOVIE,
24:27A LITTLE SECRET WE FORGOT TO PUT
24:29IT IN.
24:29DON'T TAKE IT UP WITH ME.
24:30TAKE IT UP WITH FLANNERY
24:32O'CONNER.
24:32I'LL GET YOU A OUIJA BOARD.
24:35THIS IS THE HISTORY.
24:37AND THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE
24:40FEAR TALKING ABOUT NOW.
24:43THERE IS A SEGMENT OF OUR
24:45SOCIETY THAT DOESN'T WANT --
24:46THAT WANTS TO PRETEND THAT
24:49CERTAIN PART OF OUR HISTORY THAT
24:50NEVER EXISTED.
24:51THERE IS ANOTHER PART OF OUR
24:53SOCIETY THAT'S TRAUMATIZED BY
24:54THESE CONVERSATIONS.
24:55AND SO HOW DO WE COME TOGETHER
24:57WITH ALL OF THESE STRANGE
24:58DYNAMICS HAPPENING TO HAVE
25:01PRODUCTIVE DISCOURSE AND PROBLEM
25:03SOLVE AROUND RACE AND
25:04REPRESENTATION AND IDENTITY IF
25:07WE -- IF WE ARE AFRAID OF THESE
25:09THINGS?
25:09AND SO OUR FILM IS NOT AFRAID.
25:11WE DIVE INTO IT.
25:11WE DO WIT A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR
25:14ABOUT OURSELVES AS WELL.
25:16AND SO IT PROVIDES MAYBE A
25:19LITTLE RELIEF, MAYBE A BETTER
25:23SPACE, A MORE PRODUCTIVE SPACE
25:24TO CONSIDER THESE THINGS.
25:26>> SO AFTER THAT CLASSROOM
25:28EXPERIENCE, YOU ESSENTIALLY GET
25:30SIDELINED, PUT ON SABBATICAL, OR
25:32LEAVE OF ABSENCE.
25:33>> CANCELED.
25:34>> THEY TELL YOU GOODBYE,
25:36CANCELED.
25:36THEN YOU TURN UP AT AN
25:39INTERVIEW, AN ONSTAGE INTERVIEW
25:40ABOUT THE LATEST VERY, VERY
25:42POPULAR BLACK WRITER, A WOMAN.
25:43>> YES.
25:44>> WHO HAS WRITTEN A BOOK.
25:47>> "WES LIVES IN THE GHETTO".
25:52>> ALL YOUR RADARS ARE ALERT,
25:54BECAUSE YOU SEE WHAT'S
25:55HAPPENING.
25:55THAT THERE IS A BOOK ABOUT A
25:58BLACK EXPERIENCE THAT IS
26:00APPARENTLY VERNACULAR, BUT IT
26:01ISN'T REPRESENTATIVE, YOU DON'T
26:03THINK.
26:04>> RIGHT.
26:05>> OR ENTIRELY REPRESENTATIVE.
26:06>> IT'S NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF
26:08THE WHOLE.
26:08IT'S A KIND OF NARROWING OF THE
26:11BLACK EXPERIENCE THAT IS
26:13PALATABLE TO A CERTAIN AUDIENCE.
26:15AND OUT OF FRUSTRATION WITH
26:19THAT, MY CHARACTER DECIDES TO
26:20WRITE A BOOK OF HIS OWN TO KIND
26:24OF SHINE THE LIGHT ON THE
26:26HYPOCRISY OF THE PUBLISHING
26:27WORLD AND MISPERCEPTIONS AND ALL
26:29OF THAT.
26:29AND AGAIN, THAT'S THE BOOK THAT
26:31BECOMES HIS BEST-SELLER.
26:33BUT, YOU KNOW --
26:33>> CALLED?
26:34>> HIS BOOK IS CALLED "MY
26:37PAFOLOGY".
26:38>> AND ANOTHER BOOK.
26:43>> WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SAY.
26:45THE F-WORD.
26:46>> THAT ASPECT OF THE FILM IS
26:48ABOUT A GUY WHO'S NOT ABLE TO BE
26:52HIS AUTHENTIC SELF, OR NOT
26:53RECEIVED FOR HIS AUTHENTIC SELF.
26:54HE WANTS TO BE INDIVIDUAL, AN
26:57INDIVIDUAL WHO IS CREATIVE,
26:59CREATIVELY FREE AND
27:01INTELLECTUALLY FREE.
27:02AND THE EXTERIOR WORLD IS KIND
27:04OF STUNTING HIM.
27:05BUT IT'S NOT SIMPLY LIMITED TO
27:08THE BLACK EXPERIENCE.
27:08I THINK ALL OF US WANT TO BE
27:10SEEN.
27:10ALL OF US WANT TO BE FREE.
27:12ALL OF US WANT TO BE SEEN AS OUR
27:14AUTHENTIC SELVES.
27:15AND THERE IS RESISTANCE TO THAT.
27:17SO FOR THAT REASON, I'VE HAD
27:18MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN THE
27:19FILM NOW WHO RELATED TO THAT
27:21STORY WHO WEREN'T BLACK MEN, BUT
27:22SAID YEAH, I GET THAT.
27:25I GET THE PRESSURES FROM THE
27:27OUTSIDE THAT WANT TO FORCE ME TO
27:29BE SOMETHING THAT I'M NOT.
27:31THAT KIND OF LIMIT THE SCALE AND
27:33SCOPE OF WHO I AM.
27:35SO THERE IS A UNIVERSEALITY TO
27:42IT THAT IS WELCOMING.
27:43>> "MY PAFOLOGY.
27:45>>" IS TURNED INTO THE F-WORD
27:47BOOK.
27:47YOUR AGENT IS HILARIOUS.
27:49THE SCENES BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR
27:50AGENT AND THE PUBLISHERS, IT
27:51JUST CRYING FUNNY.
27:53AND I AM GOING TO PLAY PART OF
27:56THE AN EXCERPT OF THE PUBLISHER
27:58WHO DECIDES TO TAKE YOUR BOOK
28:00AND WANT TO PUBLISH IT.
28:01>> YES.
28:01>> WE'RE BOTH VERY EXCITED TO
28:04DISCUSS THOMPSON WATT'S OFFER.
28:05>> FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY ALL
28:08OF HERE AT THOMPSON WATT ARE
28:10THRILLED WITH "MY PAFOLOGY.
28:13>>."
28:13IT IS ABOUT AS PERFECT A BOOK AS
28:15I'VE SEEN IN A LONG, LONG WHILE.
28:17JUST RAW AND REAL.
28:18MR. LEE, IS THIS -- IS THIS
28:20BASED ON YOUR ACTUAL LIFE?
28:23>> YEAH, YOU THINK SOME
28:26[ BLEEP ] ASS COLLEGE BOY CAN
28:27COME UP WITH THAT?
28:28>> NO, NO, NO, I DON'T.
28:30>> AND THEN HE GOES ON AND ON
28:32AND ON.
28:32>> YES.
28:33>> SO YOU AS I GUESS A MIDDLE
28:35CLASS.
28:35>> PROFESSIONAL CLASS.
28:38>> PROFESSIONAL CLASS ARE HAVING
28:39TO TAKE ON THIS ROLE.
28:42AND IT'S -- IT'S REALLY
28:45INTERESTING, BECAUSE THEN YOU
28:46TALK TO ACTUALLY THIS AUTHOR
28:48SINTARA, WHO DID WRITE THIS
28:50OTHER BOOK.
28:50>> PLAYED BY ISSA RAE.
28:52>> AND SHE PUSHES BACK ON YOU
28:53EVENTUALLY IN THE FILM.
28:54WHY ARE YOU BEING SO, YOU KNOW,
28:57AGAINST THIS KIND OF WRITING.
28:59>> WELL, THAT'S A CENTRAL SCENE
29:01FOR OUR FILM.
29:02IT KIND OF REPRESENTS A TYPE OF
29:04THESIS ARGUMENT IN THE FILM.
29:05ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CORD
29:07JEFFERSON AND I TALKED ABOUT,
29:09WHO DIRECTED OUR FILM AND
29:10ADAPTED THE SCREENPLAY FROM A
29:13NOVEL BY PERCIVAL EVERETT CALLED
29:19"ERASURE" CORD AND I TALKED
29:20ABOUT NOT MAKING A FILM THAT WAS
29:22SOME CLASSIST DISMISSING OF WORK
29:26THAT WAS BENEATH US, BUT RATHER
29:27TALKING ABOUT THE BROADENING OF
29:31REPRESENTATION IN FILM, IN
29:32LITERATURE.
29:33AND GENERALLY.
29:34SO WE WERE CAREFUL TO MAKE SURE
29:37THAT MONK, MY CHARACTER MAY NOT
29:39BE THE MOST RELIABLE NARRATER.
29:41HE MAY NOT BE SPOUTING THE
29:44ABSOLUTE GOSPEL.
29:45AND SINTARA'S CHARACTER IN THAT
29:47SCENE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
29:49CHECKS HIM.
29:50>> YEP.
29:51>> AND HE FINDS OUT GRADUALLY
29:52THROUGH THE COURSE OF THE FILM,
29:55DESPITE HIS OBJECTION TO HER
29:56WORK, HE BEGINS TO REALIZE THAT
29:58SHE IS AS CLEVER AS HE IS.
30:00SHE IS AS SAVVY AS HE IS.
30:02AND IN THAT SCENE, WE'RE LEFT
30:04WITH A THESIS ARGUMENT, BUT IT
30:06EXISTS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THEIR
30:07PERSPECTIVES, SOMEWHERE ON THE
30:08TABLE THERE, MAYBE IN THE SYNTH
30:13SYNTHESIS OF THE TWO IDEAS IS
30:15SOMETHING THAT APPROACHES CLOSER
30:16TO THE TRUTH.
30:16SO IT'S A WONDERFUL MOMENT FOR
30:20HIM BECAUSE HE'S NOT THE SAME
30:22MAN AT THE END OF THE FILM THAT
30:23HE IS AT THE BEGINNING.
30:24HEAVY HAS GONE THROUGH THIS
30:27PROCESS OF BEING
30:29SELF-REFLECTIVE, OF BEING
30:30CHALLENGED, AND ALL OF THE
30:32FORCES THAT ARE AROUND HIM HAVE
30:34CAUSED HIM TO ACTUALLY TAKE ON
30:36BOARD THESE THINGS, PROCESS
30:37THEM, AND TRANSFORM TO SOME
30:40EXTENT.
30:40HE GOES THROUGH A HEALTHY KIND
30:44OF PERIOD OF EVOLUTION OVER THE
30:45COURSE OF THE FILM, WHICH IS
30:46HOPEFUL, I THINK.
30:47>> IT REALLY IS.
30:48AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO
30:49SPOILER ALERTS ABOUT THE END,
30:50BUT THE END IS REALLY
30:52FASCINATING, VERY UNEXPECTED,
30:53REALLY INTERESTING.
30:53BUT IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF
30:55THIS, THE REASON YOUR CHARACTER
30:57MONK WRITES THIS BOOK IS BECAUSE
31:00YOU HAVE TO -- YOU'RE NOT
31:02EARNING MUCH OTHERWISE.
31:03>> YES.
31:03>> AND YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR
31:06MOTHER'S IN THE FILM, HER CARE,
31:07BECAUSE SHE IS GETTING
31:11INCREASINGLY INTO DEMENTIA.
31:12>> YES.
31:13>> SO THAT PART IS REALLY SO
31:15FULL OF PATHOS.
31:16THAT'S REALLY THE SAD PART, THE
31:18DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY, THE LOVING
31:20FAMILY, HOW YOU HAVE DONE ALL
31:22THIS THAT YOU'RE DOING, A FAKE
31:24YOU REALLY IN ORDER TO BE ABLE
31:25TO PAY FOR HER CARE.
31:26>> YEAH.
31:27HE IS NOT ENTIRELY CYNICAL.
31:28HE IS NOT ENTIRELY HYPOCRITICAL
31:33OR SELLOUT.
31:33HIS MOTHER IS AILING, AND HE
31:35FINDS HIMSELF REALLY AFTER A
31:37SERIES OF CRISES WITHIN THE
31:38FAMILY HAVING TO BE THE ADULT IN
31:39THE ROOM AND TAKE ON THE
31:41RESPONSIBILITY OF BEING
31:42CARETAKER TO THE WOMAN WHO WAS
31:43HIS CARETAKER.
31:45THAT FOR ME WAS THE -- WAS THE
31:48THING THAT REALLY HOOKED ME INTO
31:50THIS STORY WHEN I READ IT THAT
31:52WAS THE THING THAT I FELT MOST
31:54CLOSELY ALIGN KIND OF
31:56PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY,
31:57BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD THAT.
31:58I HAD BEEN LIVING THAT REALITY
32:01WHEN I RECEIVED THIS SCRIPT FROM
32:04CORD.
32:04MY MOTHER PASSED AWAY ABOUT A
32:07YEAR OR SO BEFORE I GOT THE
32:08SCRIPT.
32:08SHE PASSED OF CANCER.
32:10IT WAS VERY QUICK.
32:11BUT I HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE OF
32:13BEING RAISED BY TWO WOMEN, MY
32:15MOTHER AND HER ELDEST SISTER, MY
32:17AUNT, WHO IS NOW 94, WHO CAME TO
32:19LIVE WITH US IN NEW YORK.
32:22MOM, AND THEN HAVING TO BE
32:23CARETAKER TO MY AUNT.
32:25I HAVE TWO CHILDREN, THE
32:26PANDEMIC SET IN, ALL OF THOSE
32:28PRESSURES.
32:28SO IT WAS REALLY A VERY
32:31CHALLENGING TIME.
32:31AND IT KIND OF DISABUSED ME OF
32:34THE YOUTHFUL IDEA THAT LIFE GETS
32:36EASIER AS YOU GET OLDER.
32:38THAT'S WHERE OUR CHARACTER FINDS
32:40HIMSELF.
32:41AND AGAIN, THAT SIDE OF THE FILM
32:43IS, AS YOU SAY, IT'S FILLED WITH
32:44EMOTION.
32:45>> IT'S FILLED WITH EMOTION.
32:47IT'S REALLY SAD.
32:48>> AND THERE IS A WONDERFUL
32:50SIMPLE HUMANNESS TO IT.
32:52AND AGAIN, A UNIVERSEALITY TO
32:57IT, AND MANY OF US KNOW THAT IN
32:59OUR LIVES AND WHO WILL.
33:01AGAIN, IT'S AN INVITATION TO
33:02MEMBERS OF THE AUDIENCE ACROSS
33:05BACKGROUNDS TO FIND THEMSELVES
33:06WITHIN THE STORY.
33:08AND IT ALSO PROVIDES IN SOME
33:11WAYS THE ANSWER, IF YOU WILL, TO
33:15THE ABSURDITY OF THE SATIRICAL
33:16SIDE, THE KIND OF TRAGIC
33:18ABSURDITY OF THIS PERCEPTION OF
33:19THIS MAN WHEN REALLY ALL ALONG
33:21HE'S JUST LEADING THIS ORDINARY
33:26LIFE INSIDE AN ORDINARY MAD
33:28FAMILY LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
33:30>> LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, YES.
33:32CAN I JUST ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU
33:34HAVE BEEN MANY, MANY REALLY WELL
33:36RECEIVED FILMS AND SERIES AND
33:41BROADWAY, PLAY "ANGELS IN
33:43AMERICA."
33:44"THE HUNGER GAMES."
33:46JAMES BOND.
33:46THIS IS YOUR FIRST OSCAR
33:48NOMINATION.
33:48SOME PEOPLE SAY WHAT TOOK SO
33:49LONG.
33:50IT'S ABOUT TIME.
33:50DO YOU FEEL THAT?
33:51HOW DO YOU FEEL?
33:52>> WELL, MY AUNT FELT THAT.
33:53I CALLED HER.
33:55HER EYESIGHT IS NOT SO GREAT
33:56ANYMORE.
33:57SO SHE HAS DIFFICULTY DIALING
33:58THE PHONE.
33:58AND I CALLED HER THAT MORNING.
34:00I SAID HEY, I HADN'T HEARD FROM
34:03YOU.
34:04DID YOU TAKE IN ANY NEWS THIS
34:07MORNING?
34:07SHE SAID YEAH, I HEARD THAT.
34:08YEAH.
34:09YEAH.
34:09CONGRATULATIONS.
34:12BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD HAVE
34:13BEEN NOMINATED A LONG TIME.
34:15YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN NOMINATED
34:17FOR BASQUIAT.
34:19SHE SPEAKS PLAINLY.
34:20HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT IT?
34:22I FEEL REALLY GRATIFIED.
34:25BECAUSE IT'S A FILM THAT I'M
34:26PROUD OF.
34:27I'M PROUD OF THE WORK THAT WE
34:28ALL DID.
34:29THE FILM WAS RECOGNIZED IN
34:31MULTIPLE CATEGORIES.
34:31AND IT'S COMING FROM OUR PEERS
34:33WHO ARE SAYING HEY, WELL DONE.
34:36AND THAT'S A WONDERFUL THING.
34:37>> IT IS.
34:38IT'S A WONDERFUL FEELING.
34:40I JUST WANT TO A LAST QUESTION.
34:43DO YOU CHOOSE CERTAIN ROLES?
34:45SOME ARE IN THE MODERN HISTORY
34:47REALM, IF YOU LIKE.
34:48SOME ROLES, WHETHER IT'S
34:50BASQUIAT IN ART OR ANGELS IN
34:52AMERICA ON AIDS CRISIS.
34:54THIS WITH THE RACIAL
34:57STEREOTYPES.
34:57DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU WANT TO BE
35:00RELEVANT IN CONVERSATIONS IN
35:02PARTS OF HISTORY THAT ARE
35:02HAPPENING RIGHT NOW OR NOT?
35:04>> YEAH.
35:04I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE POINT, TO
35:07TELL STORIES THAT --
35:10>> I MEAN "THE HUNGER GAMES"
35:11ISN'T.
35:11>> IT IS AS WELL.
35:13>> OKAY.
35:14>> YEAH.
35:16I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE FOUND
35:19THEIR WAYS INSIDE THOSE STORIES
35:20FROM A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE.
35:22>> OKAY.
35:23>> ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THEIR
35:25RELATIONSHIP TO POWER, TO
35:28GOVERNMENT, AND IN MANY
35:29RESPECTS, A YOUNG WOMAN KIND OF
35:31EMERGING AS A HERO THAT HAD A
35:34REAL SIGNIFICANCE TO MANY YOUNG
35:36WOMEN.
35:37BUT, YES, I THINK THE BEST --
35:41MAYBE THE BEST PERIOD OF
35:43FILMMAKING IN AMERICA WAS THE
35:44'70s WHEN THESE GRITTY FILMS
35:47MADE BY SYDNEY AND ALLEN KOALA
35:50AND FRANCES FORD COPPOLA THAT
35:52WERE RELEVANT TO THE TIMES.
35:53>> YEAH.
35:54>> WERE STORY-DRIVEN BUT
35:56RELEVANT CHARACTER-DRIVEN FILMS
35:57THAT TALKED ABOUT THINGS THAT
35:59PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IN WAYS
36:02THAT ADDED TO THE DISCOURSE.
36:06AND I'M HOPING THAT OUR FILM
36:08MAYBE THROWS BACK TO THAT ERA IN
36:10SOME WAYS AND DOES SO TOO.
36:12I SAW MEL BROOKS HONORED AT AN
36:15EVENT THE OTHER DAY.
36:16HE SAID, YEAH, ALL MY STUFF WAS
36:19SATIRE.
36:20WE THROW SOME WINKS AT THAT TYPE
36:23OF SATIRE.
36:23HE SAID YEAH.
36:24BUT SATIRE DOESN'T WORK IF IT'S
36:25NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TIMES.
36:26IF IT'S NOT POLITICAL, IF IT'S
36:29NOT SOCIALLY RELEVANT, WHAT'S
36:31THE POINT.
36:31I MEAN, ESCAPISM IS GOOD.
36:33BUT, YEAH, I LIKE TO HAVE
36:37CONVERSATIONS THAT ARE
36:38MEANINGFUL TO PEOPLE AND MAYBE
36:39PROVIDE A LITTLE BIT OF COMFORT,
36:41A LITTLE BIT OF RELIEF, A LITTLE
36:42BIT OF VALIDATION.
36:43AND I THINK OUR FILM MAY DO
36:45THAT.
36:46>> WELL, EVERYBODY IS TALKING
36:48ABOUT IT.
36:49THAT'S FOR SURE.
36:51CONGRATULATIONS.
36:52>> THANK YOU.
36:53>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
36:53>> THANK YOU.
36:54>> "AMERICAN FICTION" OUT HERE
36:54IN LONDON THIS WEEKEND.
36:57>>> AND NEXT TO UKRAINE.
36:58AS WE'VE MENTIONED, A MUCH
37:00NEEDED LIFELINE FOR THE
37:02BELEAGUERED NATION CAME FROM THE
37:03EU TODAY.
37:04BUT NO SUCH HELP FROM
37:05WASHINGTON, WHERE CONGRESSIONAL
37:07REPUBLICANS UNDER PRESSURE FROM
37:08DONALD TRUMP ARE HOLDING UP A
37:09BIPARTISAN DEAL ON THE SOUTHERN
37:11BORDER THAT'S LINKED TO UKRAINE
37:13AID.
37:13OUR NEXT GUEST WARNS THIS IS A
37:16DANGEROUS MISCALCULATION.
37:18"THE WASHINGTON POST" NATIONAL
37:19SECURITY COLUMNIST MAX BOOT
37:21TELLING WALTER ISAACSON THAT
37:23PROTECTING UKRAINE ALSO PROTECTS
37:25THE UNITED STATES AND ITS
37:26ALLIES.
37:27>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
37:29I'M MAX BOOT.
37:32WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.
37:33>> GOOD TOBAC.
37:34>> YOU KNOW, THE UKRAINE
37:36COUNTEROFFENSIVE AGAINST RUSSIA
37:39THIS PAST YEAR SEEMS TO ME AT
37:40LEAST TO BE A DISAPPOINTMENT.
37:41IT GATHERED SOME TERRITORY, BUT
37:43THEN IT WAS OFFSET.
37:46>> IT SEEMS TOO THIS MEANS IT
37:48COULD GO ON FOR FIVE, TEN MORE
37:50YEARS OF BACK AND FORTH LIKE
37:52THIS.
37:52WHY SHOULD AMERICANS CONTINUE TO
37:55PAY FOR THIS WAR IF IT'S NOT
37:56GOING TO BE RESOLVED?
37:59>> WELL, WALTER, I THINK THIS
38:00WAR IS ACTUALLY THE BEST
38:04INVESTMENT WE HAVE MADE IN OUR
38:06OWN NATIONAL SECURITY SINCE THE
38:07END OF THE COLD WAR.
38:09WE'RE SPENDING LESS THAN 5% OF
38:11OUR DEFENSE BUDGET.
38:14AND IN RETURN, THE UKRAINIAN
38:16ARMED FORCES ARE DECIMATING THE
38:17RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES.
38:18THE RUSSIANS LOST ABOUT
38:19TWO-THIRDS OF THEIR PRE-WAR TANK
38:22INVENTORY.
38:22THEY'VE SUFFERED MORE THAN
38:23300,000 CASUALTIES.
38:24SO THIS IS DIRECTLY DECREASING
38:26THE THREAT TO OUR NATO ALLIES
38:28AND TO THE UNITED STATES.
38:30AND IT'S ALSO UPHOLDING THE
38:32PRINCIPLES OF LIBERALISM,
38:34DEMOCRACY, AND THE RULE OF LAW
38:35THAT WE HAVE STOOD FOR SINCE
38:36WORLD WAR II.
38:40IT SET A HORRIBLE PRECEDENT FOR
38:42THE WORLD OF RUSSIA WERE TO GET
38:44AWAY WITH ITS UNPROVOKED
38:46AGGRESSION THAT WOULD BE A GREEN
38:47LIGHT FOR CHINA TO ATTACK
38:49TAIWAN, FOR NORTH KOREA TO
38:49ATTACK SOUTH KOREA.
38:50WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN THAT
38:51KIND OF WORLD.
38:52THE UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING FOR
38:53OUR VALUES WITH A SMALL AMOUNT
38:55OF AID.
38:56WE ARE HELPING THEM TO KEEP
38:58THEIR NATION INTACT.
38:59AND EVEN THOUGH THE COUNTER
39:01OFFENSIVE FAILED, RUSSIA HAS
39:02ALSO FAILED IN ITS ATTEMPT TO
39:05DESTROY UKRAINE.
39:078 % OF UKRAINIAN TERRITORY
39:12REMAINS IN UKRAINE HANDS.
39:13IT'S VERY MUCH IN OUR MORAL AND
39:16STRATEGIC INTERESTS TO CONTINUE
39:17HELPING UKRAINE TO DEFEND ITSELF
39:19WITHOUT RISKING A SINGLE
39:19AMERICAN SOLDIER.
39:21>> AND YOU SAY THE RUSSIANS
39:23HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO CAPTURE
39:25MUCH TERRITORY.
39:26THE UKRAINIANS HAVEN'T.
39:27WE'VE SEEM ALMOST TO BE FROZEN
39:29IN PLACE, WITHIN 100 KILOMETERS
39:31OF THE LINE WE HAVE NOW.
39:33WHY CAN'T WE GET TO A TRUCE OR A
39:35CEASEFIRE IN PLACE?
39:36>> WELL, PUTIN HAS SHOWN NO
39:38INTEREST IN GENUINE PEACE
39:41NEGOTIATIONS AND WIDESPREAD
39:43SPECULATION AS HE IS WAITING TO
39:46SEE IF DONALD TRUMP WINS THE
39:48NOVEMBER ELECTION.
39:49BECAUSE TRUMP VERY HOSTILE TO
39:51UKRAINE, VERY FRIENDLY TO PUTIN.
39:53HE ACTUALLY RECENTLY SAID HE WAS
39:54THE APPLE OF PUTIN'S EYE.
39:56THIS IS THE REPUBLICAN
39:58PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE SOON TO BE.
40:02SO PUTIN HAS NO INCENTIVE TO
40:04NEGOTIATE AS LONG AS HE THINKS
40:05THAT TRUMP WILL COME ALONG AND
40:07CUT OFF UKRAINE.
40:08IN FACT, RIGHT NOW EVEN THOUGH
40:11IT'S JOE BIDEN IN OFFICE AND NOT
40:12TRUMP, RIGHT NOW THE REPUBLICANS
40:15IN THE HOUSE ARE IN FACT CUTTING
40:16OFF UKRAINE.
40:17AND SO THAT TAKES AWAY ANY
40:20INCENTIVE FOR PUTIN TO MAKE ANY
40:21KIND OF CONCESSIONS BECAUSE HE
40:22THINKS THAT IF HE JUST HOLDS ON,
40:23HE CAN WIN THIS WAR.
40:26AND, YOU KNOW, UNLESS THERE IS A
40:27CHANGE OF COURSE IN WASHINGTON,
40:29HE MAY WELL BE PROVEN CORRECT.
40:31>> AND SO WHAT HATCHES IF THE
40:36HAPPENS IF THE REPUBLICANS DON'T
40:38APPROVE THIS AID PACKAGE?
40:39YOU SAID AT ONE POINT IT WOULD
40:41MAKE YOU ASHAMED TO BE AN
40:42AMERICAN.
40:43>> IT WOULD MAKE ME ASHAMED TO
40:45BE AMERICAN.
40:46CUTTING OFF UKRAINE RIGHT NOW
40:47WOULD BE THE EXACT EQUIVALENT OF
40:49CUTTING OFF GREAT BRITAIN FROM
40:50AMERICAN AID IN 1940 WHEN THE
40:52BRITISH WERE STANDING ALONE
40:53AGAINST THE NAZIS.
40:54AND REMEMBER, A LOT OF PEOPLE
40:56WANTED TO DO THAT, INCLUDING THE
40:57REPUBLICAN PARTY.
40:58THEY WERE ACTUALLY ADHERING TO
41:00AN AMERICA FIRST FOREIGN POLICY
41:01BEFORE THE ATTACK ON PEARL
41:03HARBOR.
41:04UNFORTUNATELY, THAT AMERICA
41:05FIRST FOREIGN POLICY IS BACK.
41:08AND I DON'T THINK THAT
41:09EXEMPLIFIES THE BEST OF AMERICA.
41:10THE BEST OF AMERICA IS STANDING
41:11FOR OUR ALLIES AND HELPING TO
41:13PROTECT THEM FROM UNPROVOKED
41:16AGGRESSION.
41:16AND WE NEED TO CONTINUE DOING
41:18THAT.
41:18IF WE DON'T DO THAT, UKRAINE
41:20COULD VERY WELL LOSE THE WAR.
41:22PROBABLY NOT THIS YEAR, BUT
41:23CERTAINLY WITHIN A FEW YEARS
41:25FROM NOW.
41:25AND I THINK THAT WILL LEAVE US
41:27ASHAMED TO BE AMERICANS.
41:29AND IT WILL -- IF THE
41:31REPUBLICANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR
41:32CUTTING OFF AID TO UKRAINE,
41:34THEY'RE GOING HAVE OWNERSHIP OF
41:36THIS GEOPOLITICAL CATASTROPHE.
41:39>> AT THE MOMENT, THE SENATE IS
41:41PRETTY CLOSE TO NEGOTIATING A
41:43DEAL.
41:44SENATOR LANKFORD OF OKLAHOMA,
41:47MANY REPUBLICAN AS WELL AS THE
41:49DEMOCRATS THAT WOULD TIE THIS
41:51AID TO BORDER SECURITY.
41:53TO A MUCH STRICTER SOUTHERN
41:57BORDER WITH MEXICO SECURITY
41:59PLAN.
41:59YOU WROTE "WHICHEVER GENIUS IN
42:02THE CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICAN
42:03CAUCUS DECIDED TO CONDITION AID
42:04TO UKRAINE ON THE PASSAGE OF A
42:07COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION
42:09OVERHAUL DESERVES A MEDAL FROM
42:10THE KREMLIN."
42:12WHY IS IT SO BAD TO SAY, HEY, WE
42:15WANT TO SECURE OUR BORDER IF
42:16WE'RE GOING TO BE PAYING FOR
42:18CONTINUATION OF THIS WAR IN
42:19UKRAINE?
42:21>> WELL, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG
42:23WITH WANTING TO SECURE OUR
42:24BORDER.
42:24BUT THE TWO SITUATIONS ARE NOT
42:26LINKED.
42:26WE ARE NOT BEING INVADED BY THE
42:28MEXICAN ARMY.
42:29WE'RE DEALING WITH A LOT OF
42:30MIGRANTS AT OUR SOUTHERN BORDER
42:31THAT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
42:32THAN THE SITUATION UKRAINE IS
42:33FACING WITH THE RUSSIAN
42:35INVASION.
42:35AND I DON'T MIND LINKING THE TWO
42:37IF IT'S POSSIBLE TO GET
42:39AGREEMENT ON A BORDER DEAL.
42:41BUT REMEMBER, WALTER, THERE HAS
42:42NOT BEEN A COMPREHENSIVE
42:44IMMIGRATION BILL PASSED THROUGH
42:46CONGRESS SINCE RONALD REAGAN'S
42:47PRESIDENCY IN THE 1980s.
42:48AND NOW WE'RE SEEING WHY IT'S SO
42:50HARD TO DO THAT.
42:52BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH REPUBLICANS
42:53AND DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE HAVE
42:54MADE A LOT OF PROGRESS ON A
42:56COMPROMISE BILL, TRUMP IS SAYING
42:57THAT IT NEEDS TO FAIL.
42:59BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY, TRUMP CARES
43:01MORE ABOUT HOLDING ON TO THE
43:03BORDER AS AN ELECTION ISSUE THAN
43:05HE CARES ABOUT ACTUALLY
43:06CONTROLLING THE ISSUE.
43:07SO THE ODDS ARE THAT THE HOUSE
43:10REPUBLICAN CAUCUS WILL TANK THE
43:12IMMIGRATION COMPROMISE IN THE
43:13SENATE.
43:13THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES WHAT
43:17HAPPENS TO AID TO UKRAINE AND BY
43:18THE WAY AID TO ISRAEL AND
43:20TAIWAN.
43:20IS THAT GOING TO GET A SEPARATE
43:21UP OR DOWN VOTE OR NOT?
43:23AND IT'S IMPERATIVE THAT
43:26CONGRESS DELINK THESE TWO ISSUES
43:27SO EVEN IF THERE IS GRIDLOCK ON
43:29IMMIGRATION, UKRAINE CAN'T WAIT
43:30FOR US TO SETTLE OUR
43:32DIFFERENCES.
43:32THEY NEED AID RIGHT NOW.
43:33THEY'RE UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW.
43:35UKRAINIANS ARE DYING EVERY
43:36SINGLE DAY.
43:37THEY NEED OUR HELP DESPERATELY.
43:40>> YOU SAID THAT TRUMP LOOKED
43:42UPON PUTIN, TALKED ABOUT THE
43:44APPLE OF MY EYE.
43:46TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK WOULD
43:47HAPPEN IF TRUMP IS RESTORED TO
43:48THE PRESIDENCY.
43:50>> I THINK IT WOULD BE A
43:52CATASTROPHE FOR AMERICA AND THE
43:54WORLD.
43:54I THINK THIS WOULD REALLY BE A
43:56RETURN TO THE PREPEARL HARBOR
44:01FOREIGN POLICY ISOLATION THAT WE
44:03SHOED AFTER WORLD WAR II.
44:05EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENT FROM FDR
44:07ON HAS BELIEVED THAT AMERICA HAS
44:09TO EXERCISE GLOBAL LEADERSHIP.
44:10THE ONLY EXCEPTION IS DONALD
44:11TRUMP, WHO ADOPTS THE SLOGAN OF
44:14AMERICA FIRST THAT WAS ALSO USED
44:16BY THE ISOLATIONISTS OF THE
44:19PRE-PEARL HARBOR PERIOD.
44:20SO IT'S VERY HARD TO PREDICT
44:21EXACTLY WHAT TRUMP WILL DO
44:23BECAUSE HE IS MERCURIAL AND
44:25UNPREDICTABLE AND CAPABLE OF
44:26GOING OFF IN MULTIPLE DIFFERENT
44:28OFTEN CONTRADICTORY DIRECTIONS.
44:30BUT HE HAS BEEN PRETTY CLEAR
44:32THAT HE IS A BIG FAN OF VLADIMIR
44:34PUTIN.
44:35HE IS NOT A BIG FAN OF ZELENSKYY
44:36OR UKRAINE.
44:38HE'S CONSTANTLY TALKED ABOUT
44:40DESTROYING NATO, ABOUT TAKING
44:41AMERICA OUT OF NATO.
44:43HE'S EVEN SAID THAT HE MAY NOT
44:44DEFEND TAIWAN.
44:45SO I THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS
44:47PUT TOGETHER SHOULD BE A VERY
44:49LOUD ALARM BELL.
44:50THAT IF VOTERS CARE ABOUT
44:53EXERCISING AMERICAN GLOBAL
44:54LEADERSHIP, IF VOTERS CARE ABOUT
44:57TRYING TO SAFEGUARD THE
44:59AMERICAN-LED GLOBAL ORDER THAT
45:00HAS EXISTED SINCE 1945, THEY
45:02NEED TO VOTE FOR BIDEN RATHER
45:04THAN TRUMP, BECAUSE TRUMP HAS
45:05NOTHING BUT HOSTILITY TO THE
45:12PACS AMERICANA.
45:13>> YOU IS A THEY AS SOMEBODY I
45:16ALWAYS SAY BEING CENTER RIGHT
45:18AND PROBABLY MORE REPUBLICAN IN
45:18THEIR SYMPATHY.
45:19SO YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD VOTE
45:20FOR BIDEN?
45:21>> OF COURSE.
45:22TO TALK ABOUT MY OWN HISTORY,
45:24WALTER, I WAS A LIFE-LONG
45:27REPUBLICAN, FOREIGN POLICY
45:30ADVISER TO JOHN McCAIN, MITT
45:32ROMNEY, AND MARCO RUBIO.
45:33THE VERY FIRST TIME I EVER VOTED
45:35FOR A DEMOCRAT WAS IN 2016 WHEN
45:37I VOTED FOR HILLARY CLINTON OVER
45:39DONALD TRUMP.
45:39BUT THE DAY AFTER TRUMP WON THE
45:42ELECTION, I REREGISTERED AS AN
45:44INDEPENDENT, BECAUSE I WAS NOT
45:46COMFORTABLE WITH WHERE THE
45:47REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS GOING.
45:48AND I'M FAR LESS COMFORTABLE
45:50TODAY THAN I WAS IN 2016.
45:51IT'S VERY ALARMING TO SEE WHAT
45:53WAS ONCE A CONSERVATIVE PARTY
45:56TURNING INTO THIS
45:58ETHNONATIONALIST POPULIST PARTY
46:01OF GRIEVANCE AND XENOPHOBIA AND
46:04ISOLATIONISM.
46:05I THINK FOR A TRUMP-LED PARTY TO
46:07COME TO POWER WOULD BE A
46:10CATASTROPHE.
46:10WHEREAS ON THE OTHER HAND, IF IT
46:11WAS NIKKI HALEY, I WOULD SLEEP
46:13COMPLETELY STRONGLY AT NIGHT.
46:15EVEN THOUGH I DISAGREE WITH
46:16HALEY ON A BUNCH OF THINGS, I
46:18DON'T THINK SHE WANTS TO DESTROY
46:19U.S. DEMOCRACY.
46:19I DON'T THINK SHE WANTS TO
46:20DESTROY U.S. FOREIGN POLICY.
46:21BUT TRUMP I FEAR DOES.
46:23>> YOU HAVE A BIOGRAPHY OF
46:24RONALD REAGAN COMING OUT LATER
46:26THIS YEAR, PARTLY BIOGRAPHY AND
46:29PARTLY AN ANALYSIS OF ALL OF HIS
46:31POLICIES.
46:32AND HE WAS IN YOUR BOOK A VERY
46:35CONSERVATIVE LEADER.
46:35HOW DID THE PARTY GET DIVERTED
46:39OR CHANGED BY TRUMP FROM BEING A
46:42CONSERVATIVE PARTY TO I THINK
46:43YOU CALLED IT ETHNONATIONALIST?
46:47>> RIGHT.
46:50ETHNONATIONALIST PARTY.
46:50THAT'S A LONG STORY THAT REALLY
46:53DATES BACK TO THE 1960s.
46:55I THINK TO SUM IT UP VERY
46:57BRIEFLY, I THINK THE REPUBLICAN
46:59PARTY HAS ALWAYS HAD
47:00CONSERVATIVE ELEMENTS, BUT IT'S
47:02ALSO HAD THESE ETHNONATIONALIST
47:05POPULIST ELEMENTS WHICH WERE A
47:06LOT OF THE GRASSROOTS.
47:08AND, YOU KNOW, UP UNTIL
47:10RECENTLY, REPUBLICAN LEADERS DID
47:12NOT INDICATOR TO THAT FAR RIGHT
47:15BASE.
47:15THEY SOMETIMES THREW RED MEAT TO
47:16THEM DURING THE COURSE OF
47:17POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS AS RONALD
47:18REAGAN AND MANY OTHERS DID.
47:20BUT THEY TENDED TO GOVERN IN A
47:22MUCH MORE CENTRIST AND
47:24RESPONSIBLE FASHION, MAKING
47:25DEALS WITH DEMOCRATS AND
47:27BASICALLY UPHOLDING U.S.
47:28INTERNATIONAL LEADERSHIP.
47:31TRUMP IS THE EXCEPTION.
47:33>> LET'S TALK ABOUT REAGAN,
47:35THEN.
47:35WHAT WOULD REAGAN BE DOING IN
47:36THIS SITUATION, DO YOU THINK?
47:38>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW, RONALD
47:41REAGAN WAS THE GUY WHO BELIEVED
47:44IN FUNDING FREEDOM FIGHTERS TO
47:46FIGHT AGAINST THE EVIL EMPIRE.
47:47IT WOULD BE A NO-BRAINER FOR HIM
47:49I THINK TO SUPPORT THE PEOPLE OF
47:51UKRAINE IN THEIR RESISTANCE
47:52AGAINST RUSSIA.
47:53THAT'S A TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN
47:56FOREIGN POLICY.
47:56WHAT TRUMP IS ADVOCATING IS
47:57SOMETHING VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.
48:00>> PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST CUT OFF
48:03NEW LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS, LNG,
48:07EXPORTS FROM THE UNITED STATES,
48:08FROM NEW FACILITIES.
48:10OR HE PUT IT ON PAUSE.
48:12IT SEEMS TO ME THAT'S A GIFT IN
48:13SOME WAYS TO PUTIN AND A BLOW TO
48:15OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES.
48:15WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
48:19>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK WE'RE
48:21STILL PUMPING MORE -- MORE OIL
48:23AND GAS TODAY THAN WE EVER HAVE
48:27IN OUR HISTORY, AND MORE THAN
48:28ANY OTHER COUNTRY HAS I BELIEVE
48:30IN U.S. HISTORY.
48:32I THINK BIDEN NEEDS TO FIND A
48:35BALANCING ACT BETWEEN PRESERVING
48:38OUR SHORT-TERM ECONOMIC SECURITY
48:39AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE
48:40LONG-TERM THREAT OF GLOBAL
48:41WARMING.
48:42AND I THINK THAT'S THE BALANCE
48:43HE IS TRYING TO SEEK.
48:44BUT I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING
48:45TO BE A HUGE BENEFIT TO RUSSIA
48:48BECAUSE WE'RE ALREADY PUMPING A
48:50LOT OF OIL, AND THE PRICE OF OIL
48:52IS ALREADY PRETTY LOW IN THE
48:54WORLD MARKET.
48:55AND OUR SANCTIONS ARE BITING
48:58RUSSIA, ALTHOUGH NOT AS MUCH AS
48:59WE WOULD LIKE.
49:01>> OUR SANCTIONS ARE BITING
49:04RUSSIA, YOU SAY.
49:06BUT RUSSIA'S ECONOMY SEEMS TO BE
49:08DOING JUST FINE.
49:10HOW COME OUR SANCTIONS AREN'T
49:11WORKING?
49:12>> WELL, IT'S THE RUSSIAN
49:14ECONOMY CONTINUES TO FUNCTION,
49:15BUT THEY HAVE VERY HIGH
49:16INFLATION, MUCH HIGHER THAN
49:17OURS.
49:18AND THEY HAVE BASICALLY GONE TO
49:19A MILITARY WAR-TIME FOOTING
49:20WHERE THEY'RE DEVOTING MOST OF
49:23THEIR ECONOMY OR AN INCREASINGLY
49:25LARGE SHARE OF THEIR ECONOMY,
49:27AND CERTAINLY MOST OF THEIR
49:30GOVERNMENT BUDGET TO DEFENSE
49:31PRODUCTION IN THE MILITARY.
49:32>> BUT BY DOING SO, THEY'RE
49:34BEING ABLE TO PRODUCE MORE
49:36MUNITIONS THAN WE ARE.
49:37IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR AMMUNITION
49:40FLOW AND PRODUCTION IS HIGHER
49:41THAN WHAT WE'RE DOING FOR
49:42UKRAINE.
49:42ISN'T THIS GOING TO BE A NOT A
49:44PRETTY SIGHT IF THIS THING KEEPS
49:46GOING ON?
49:46>> WELL, THEY ARE.
49:47I MEAN, THEY ARE CERTAINLY
49:50MANAGING TO REV UP THEIR
49:53AMMUNITION PRODUCTION, BUT
49:53THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO PRODUCE WHAT
49:55THEY NEED EITHER.
49:56THEY'RE HAVING TO BUY FROM IRAN
49:58AND NORTH KOREA, THE ONLY ROGUE
50:00STATES THAT ARE WILLING TO SELL
50:02WEAPONS TO THEM.
50:03AND BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES
50:05AND EUROPE, WE ARE ALSO RAMPING
50:07UP OUR AMMUNITION PRODUCTION,
50:10ARTILLERY PRODUCTION, ALL KINDS
50:11OF WEAPONS PRODUCTION.
50:12I THINK WE CERTAINLY HAVE -- I
50:14MEAN, THE U.S. AND EUROPE ARE
50:15MANY, MANY TIMES LARGER THAN
50:17RUSSIA IN TERMS OF ECONOMIES, IN
50:18TERMS OF POPULATION.
50:19WE CERTAINLY HAVE THE POTENTIAL
50:22TO OUTPRODUCE THE RUSSIAN
50:26ECONOMY.
50:26AND I THINK CERTAINLY KEEP
50:28UKRAINE ABLE TO DEFEND ITSELF,
50:30AS LONG AS THE UNITED STATES
50:31CONTINUES TO PROVIDE THE AID
50:32THAT WE'VE BEEN PROVIDING.
50:34>> YOU'VE ALSO WRITTEN A BOOK ON
50:37PROXY WARS, SMALL WARS.
50:39AND WE'RE SEEING THIS PLAY OUT
50:40IN THE MIDDLE EAST NOW, JUST IN
50:43THE PAST WEEK THREE AMERICAN
50:46SOLDIERS KILLED BY I THINK -- I
50:48GUESS I WOULD SAY THE PROXY
50:50FORCES IN SYRIA THAT ARE
50:51SOMEWHAT PROXIES OF IRAN.
50:54AND EVEN WITH HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH,
50:56AND OTHERS, THEY'RE PARTLY
51:00SUPPORTED AT LEAST BY IRAN.
51:01AND IT SEEMS LIKE A PROXY WAR
51:03THERE.
51:04SHOULD WE RETALIATE, WE BEING
51:06THE UNITED STATES, SHOULD THE
51:07U.S. RETALIATE AGAINST IRAN, OR
51:10IS THAT SOMETHING YOU REALLY
51:11DON'T DO IN THESE TYPE OF
51:14SITUATIONS?
51:14>> I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS
51:15TO WALK A VERY FINE LINE.
51:17I THINK HE DOES NEED TO
51:19RETALIATE.
51:19BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE
51:22IRANIAN-BACKED MILITIAS CROSSED
51:23A RED LINE BY KILLING THREE
51:24AMERICAN SOLDIERS.
51:25AND THIS IS JUST ONE OF ABOUT
51:28160 ATTACKS ON U.S. BASES IN THE
51:31REGION SINCE THE HAMAS ATTACK ON
51:32ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th.
51:35SO I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN DOES
51:37NEED TO RETALIATE.
51:38BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK HE
51:40IS VERY COGNIZANT HE DOESN'T
51:41WANT TO GET INTO A WAR WITH
51:42IRAN.
51:42THAT WOULD NOT BE IN ANYBODY'S
51:44INTEREST.
51:45SO I DON'T THINK HE IS GOING TO
51:46PAY ATTENTION TO THESE UBER
51:47HAWKS LIKE LINDSEY GRAHAM AND
51:49JOHN CORNYN WHO ARE SAYING BOMB
51:51TEHRAN.
51:52I THINK THAT WOULD BE A LITTLE
51:53BIT UNHINGED AND VERY, VERY
51:56DANGEROUS.
51:56BUT CLEARLY, WE NEED TO ALSO
51:58SEND A STRONG MESSAGE TO IRAN
51:59THAT THEY CAN'T ATTACK U.S.
52:04FORCES OR THEIR PROXIES CAN'T
52:08IMPUNITY.
52:08SO I'M SURE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN
52:10AND HIS MILITARY AND FOREIGN
52:12POLICY ADVISERS ARE LOOKING AT
52:14TARGETS THAT THEY CAN GO AFTER
52:16TO SEND THAT MESSAGE TO IRAN
52:19WITHOUT GETTING INTO AN
52:22ESCALATORY SPIRAL THAT WOULD
52:23PRODUCE A MASSIVE WAR THAT
52:25NOBODY WANTS.
52:26>> YEAH, I ALWAYS THINK OF YOU
52:27AS VERY MUCH A REALIST IN
52:29FOREIGN POLICY.
52:30AND IT SEEMS THAT THESE DAYS
52:31WE'RE VIOLATING THE GRAND
52:35PRINCIPLE OF REALISM, WHICH IS
52:37NOT TO FIGHT ON TOO MANY FRONTS
52:39AND NOT TO HAVE OUR ADVERSARIES
52:42END UP JOINING TOGETHER AGAINST
52:43US.
52:44AND YET WE'RE DOING THAT WHERE
52:45WE'RE PUSHING AGAINST RUSSIA,
52:47PUSHING AGAINST CHINA.
52:48NOW PUSHING AGAINST IRAN AND
52:51THEY'RE ALL BECOMING CLOSER TO
52:53EACH OTHER.
52:55DO YOU THINK WE'RE MAKING A
52:56MAJOR STRATEGIC ERROR IN FOREIGN
52:58POLICY?
52:58AND IF SO, SHOULD WE BE OPENING
53:00UP TO CHINA OR IRAN AND TRY TO
53:03NOT HAVE OUR ADVERSARIES ALL
53:04GROUND AGAINST US?
53:07>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I WOULD NOT
53:09ACTUALLY SAY THAT ALL OF OUR
53:11ADVERSARIES ARE GROUPED AGAINST
53:12US.
53:12THERE ARE SOME OVERLAPPING
53:14INTERESTS BETWEEN IRAN, CHINA,
53:15AND RUSSIA.
53:16BUT THEY'RE NOT CLOSE ALLIES.
53:18AND IN FACT I THINK THE BIDEN
53:20ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE A PRETTY
53:20GOOD JOB OVER THE LAST YEAR OF
53:23IMPROVING RELATIONS WITH CHINA.
53:25AND AS YOU CAN SEE, CHINA IS NOT
53:27PROVIDING WEAPONS TO RUSSIA AND
53:30UKRAINE.
53:30I THINK THAT'S HUGELY IMPORTANT.
53:33AND CHINA SEEMS TO HAVE ADOPTED
53:34A SOMEWHAT MORE CONCILIATORY
53:36APPROACH TO THE U.S. AND THE
53:37WEST, AND I THINK THAT'S A
53:38POSITIVE THING.
53:39SO I THINK WE SHOULD CERTAINLY
53:41TRY TO RATCHET DOWN TENSIONS
53:42WHERE WE CAN.
53:43IT'S HARD.
53:43THERE IS NO WAY TO RATCHET DOWN
53:45TENSIONS WITH RUSSIA AS LONG AS
53:46THEY CONTINUE TO INVADE AN
53:47INNOCENT COUNTRY NEXT DOOR.
53:48IT'S VERY HARD TO RATCHET DOWN
53:51TENSIONS WITH IRAN AS LONG AS
53:52THEIR PROXIES ARE ATTACKING U.S.
53:55FORCES.
53:55CERTAINLY, WE SHOULD TRY TO
53:57AVOID GETTING EMBROILED IN
53:59MULTIPLE CONFLICTS, BUT
54:01REMEMBER, THIS IS KIND OF THE
54:04HISTORIC FOREIGN POLICY OF THE
54:05UNITED STATES GOING BACK TO 1945
54:07IS TO TRY TO PRESERVE THE PEACE
54:09IN THE KEY CENTERS OF GLOBAL
54:11POWER, IN EUROPE AND EAST ASIA
54:13AND THE MIDDLE EAST.
54:13AND SO I THINK WE STILL HAVE A
54:16VITAL ROLE, AN INDISPENSABLE
54:19ROLE AS MADELEINE ALBRIGHT SAID
54:20IN TRYING TO UPHOLD GLOBAL
54:21ORDER.
54:22AND THAT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY AND
54:24SOMETIMES DANGEROUS.
54:25BUT I THINK THE FAR GREATER
54:26DANGER WOULD BE TO ABANDON OUR
54:29INTERNATIONALIST ROLE AND
54:30RETREAT INTO THE KIND OF
54:33PRE-PEARL HARBOR ISOLATIONISM
54:35THAT DONALD TRUMP SEEMS TO
54:36ADVOCATE.
54:36>> MAX BOOT, THANK YOU SO MUCH
54:38FOR JOINING US.
54:39>> THANK YOU.
54:40>>> AND FINALLY, A NAPKIN FOR
54:43WHEN THINGS GET MESSY.
54:48LIONEL MESSI, THAT IS.
54:51A PAPER NAPKIN CONTAINING THE
54:53AGREEMENT TO SIGN THE LEGEND TO
54:55FC BARCELONA WILL GO ON AUCTION.
54:58STARTING PRICE, $380,000.
55:00THE DEAL WAS SEALED IN 2000 WHEN
55:02MESSI WAS JUST 13 YEARS OLD.
55:04IT WAS THE BEGINNING, OF COURSE,
55:05OF A BREATHTAKING CAREER AS HE
55:07BECAME ONE OF THE GREATEST
55:08PLAYERS IN THE HISTORY OF THE
55:10GAME.
55:10AND SINCE JOINING THE AMERICAN
55:12CLUB INTER MIAMI LAST YEAR, HE'S
55:16HAD A MASSIVE IMPACT ON THE
55:18PROFILE AND POPULARITY OF THE
55:19SPORT IN THE UNITED STATES THAT
55:21NAPKIN CONTRACT, A DEAL
55:22CERTAINLY WORTH MUCH MORE THAN
55:23THE PAPER IT WAS WRITTEN ON.
55:24THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM
55:26TONIGHT.
55:26IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:27COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVER
55:28NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR
55:31NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:34THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND
55:35GOODBYE FROM LONDON.