Amanpour & Co. - February 12, 2024
Transcript
00:01♪♪
00:04>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
00:05TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
00:06HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:08>>> NO, I WOULD NOT PROTECT YOU,
00:10IN FACT, I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM
00:11TO DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY
00:12WANT.
00:12YOU GOT TO PAY.
00:14>> AMERICAN ALLIES AGHAST AFTER
00:16TRUMP INVITES PUTIN TO INVADE
00:18NATO COUNTRIES.
00:19I GET REACTION FROM INDEPENDENT
00:21U.S. SENATOR ANGUS KING.
00:23>>> THEN --
00:24>> THIS IS AN OPERATION THAT WE
00:26HAVE BEEN PREPARING FOR AWHILE.
00:28>> ISRAEL RESCUES TWO HOSTAGES,
00:30AND THE DEATH TOLL IN GAZA
00:31SHOOTS UP.
00:33I SPEAK TO ISRAELI CHARITY CEO
00:37YAEL NOY ABOUT CARRYING ON HER
00:38MISSION TO HELP SICK
00:40PALESTINIANS.
00:41>>> AND -- NETANYAHU TARGETING
00:44RAFAH, EVEN AS BIDEN URGES
00:45RESTRAINT.
00:48JOURNALIST SARAH HELM JOINS ME
00:49ON WHAT COULD BE COMING.
00:51>>> PLUS --
00:52>> NEVER LOOKED AT THE MOST
00:53DRAMATIC RETIREMENT IN THE
00:55WORLD.
00:55>> LIFE AFTER POWER.
00:57AUTHOR JARED COHEN TALKS TO
01:01WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT
01:05PRESIDENT
01:06PRESIDENTS
01:08FINDING PURPOSE AFTER LEAVING
01:13THE WHITE HOUSE.
01:21>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS
01:21MADE POSSIBLE BY --
01:24THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
01:26JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
01:29CANDACE KING WEIR.
01:31THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA
01:32AND MICKEY STRAUS.
01:35MARK J. BLECHNER.
01:37THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO
01:38FOUNDATION.
01:39SETON J. MELVIN.
01:41CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
01:42KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED
01:53TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
01:54IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
01:54BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
01:55>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED
01:55BY THESE FUNDERS.
01:56AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
01:57STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
01:58THANK YOU.
02:04>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
02:05EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE
02:06AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
02:08AS VLADIMIR PUTIN CONTINUES HIS
02:10QUEST TO CONTROL UKRAINE, DONALD
02:12TRUMP GIVES THE KREMLIN LEADER A
02:14GREEN LIGHT TO INVADE AMERICA'S
02:16OWN ALLIES.
02:16THE GOP PRESIDENTIAL
02:19FRONT-RUNNER RAISED ALARMS IN
02:20WASHINGTON AND AROUND THE WORLD
02:21AFTER SAYING THIS -- ONES OF THE
02:27PRESIDENTS OF A BIG COUNTRY
02:28STOOD UP, SAID, WELL, SIR, IF WE
02:30DON'T PAY, AND WE'RE ATTACKED BY
02:32RUSSIA, WILL YOU PROTECT US?
02:33I SAID, YOU DIDN'T PAY?
02:35YOU'RE DELINQUENT.
02:36HE SAID, YES.
02:38LET'S SAY THAT HAPPENED.
02:39NO, I WOULD NOT PROTECT YOU.
02:40IN FACT, I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM
02:42TO DO WHATEVER THE HELL THEY
02:42WANT.
02:43YOU GOT TO PAY.
02:44YOU GOT TO PAY YOUR BILLS.
02:47AND THE MONEY CAME FLOWING IN.
02:51>> NATO'S LEADER STEPPED IN WITH
02:53SOME QUICK DAMAGE CONTROL.
02:54HE SAID TRUMP IS PUTTING
02:57EUROPE
02:58AND AMERICA AT RISK.
03:00THIS, AS U.S. LAWMAKERS WORKED
03:01OVER THE WEEKEND TRYING TO GET
03:03AN AID BILL PASSED FOR UKRAINE
03:05AND ISRAEL.
03:05PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS THE FAILURE
03:06OF CONGRESS TO SUPPORT UKRAINE
03:08WOULD AMOUNT TO CRIMINAL
03:10NEGLIGENCE.
03:11THE PRESIDENT IS ALSO GROWING
03:12PUBLICLY MORE FRUSTRATED WITH
03:13THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER
03:16BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, CALLING
03:18OPERATIONS IN GAZA OVER THE TOP.
03:20INDEPENDENT SENATOR ANGUS KING
03:21SPENT THE WEEKEND WITH
03:23COLLEAGUES WORKING ON THIS
03:24FOREIGN AID BILL, JUST DAYS
03:25AFTER MAKING AN IMPASSIONED
03:28SPEECH ON THE SENATE FLOOR.
03:30>> WHENEVER PEOPLE WRITE TO MY
03:31OFFICE, THEY SAY, WHY ARE WE
03:33SUPPORTING UKRAINE, I ANSWER,
03:38GOOGLE 1938.
03:40WE COULD HAVE STOPPED A
03:42MURDEROUS DICTATOR WHO WAS BENT
03:44ON GEOGRAPHIC EXPANSION AT THAT
03:45TIME, I SAY, WE, THE WEST, AT A
03:52RELATIVELY LOW COAST.
03:53THE RESULT OF NOT DOING SO WAS
03:5655 MILLION DEATHS.
03:59THAT CHAPTER HAS HAUNTED ME,
04:01BECAUSE IT ECHOES SO STRONGLY IN
04:03WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IN UKRAINE.
04:08>> AND SENATOR KING, WELCOME NOW
04:09TO THE PROGRAM.
04:10THAT WAS A VERY, VERY DRAMATIC
04:13AND HISTORICALLY FOCUSED
04:17COMMENT.
04:17AND I WONDER WHAT YOUR
04:18COLLEAGUES, YOU KNOW, SAID TO
04:21YOU ABOUT THAT, OR DO YOU THINK
04:23IT WILL FOCUS THEM TO EVENTUALLY
04:24PASS THIS AID BILL?
04:27>> WELL, I GOT A GOOD RESPONSE
04:29FROM MY COLLEAGUES, A LOT OF
04:31THEM SAW IT OR THEY SAW THE
04:34VIDEO OF IT, AND MOST OF THEM
04:35AGREE.
04:37WHEN I SAY MOST, LAST NIGHT, WE
04:38GOT, I THINK, 67 VOTES TO MOVE
04:39FORWARD ON THE SUPPLEMENTAL
04:41BILL.
04:41THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD INDICATION
04:42OF SOLID BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.
04:43AND I'M DEEPLY HOPEFUL THAT THAT
04:48SUPPORT WILL CONTINUE OVER THE
04:49NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS, AS WE WORK
04:50THROUGH THIS PROCESS TO GET THIS
04:53BILL, THIS CRUCIAL BILL, PASSED.
04:56IT -- AS YOU POINT OUT, THIS IS
05:01HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT.
05:04IT WOULD BE A CATASTROPHE IF THE
05:06U.S. WALKED AWAY FROM UKRAINE.
05:09IT WOULD EMBOLDEN PUTIN, XI
05:12JINPING.
05:13THERE COULD NOT BE A WORSE
05:15MISTAKE IN THE 21st CENTURY THAN
05:19WALKING AWAY, QUITTING ON
05:20UKRAINE.
05:21>> SENATOR KING, YOU SAID ABOUT
05:23EMBOLDENING ADVERSARIES LIKE
05:25PUTIN, SO, WHAT IS YOUR
05:26ASSESSMENT, HOW DID YOU TAKE
05:28TRUMP'S COMMENT, WHICH WE
05:29PLAYED, AT A CAMPAIGN RALLY,
05:30ESSENTIALLY, HE USED THE WORD
05:34ENCOURAGE PUTIN TO DO WHATEVER
05:35THE HELL HE LIKES.
05:38>> WELL, WHEN I FIRST SAW IT, I
05:39THOUGHT IT WAS A JOKE.
05:40I THOUGHT IT WAS SOME, YOU KNOW,
05:41PARODY OR A.I.-GENERATED FAKE, I
05:45MEAN -- I CAN'T IMAGINE SOMEONE
05:48SAYING THAT.
05:49THE ESSENCE OF OUR NATIONAL
05:50SECURITY STRATEGY FOR 80 YEARS
05:53HAS BEEN DETERRENCE.
05:55THE BEST WAR IS THE ONE THAT'S
05:56NEVER FOUGHT.
05:57AND THE WAY TO AVOID FIGHTING A
05:59WAR IS, YOUR ADVERSARIES KNOW
06:00THAT THEY WILL FACE OVERWHELMING
06:02RESULTS AND CONSEQUENCES IF THEY
06:04COMMIT AGGRESSION.
06:07TO HAVE SAID SOMETHING LIKE
06:07THAT, WHICH BASICALLY, HE SAID
06:09TO PUTIN, I DON'T CARE WHAT THE
06:11HELL YOU DO, IF THEY HAVEN'T
06:13CHIPPED IN ADEQUATELY, ACCORDING
06:15TO HIS STANDARDS, IS
06:16UNBELIEVABLE.
06:16I MEAN, IT JUST SORT OF -- IT
06:19COMPLETELY UNDERMINES THE
06:21CONCEPT OF DETERRENCE, BECAUSE
06:22IT'S NOT ONLY DETERRENCE, IT'S
06:24AN INVITATION.
06:25AND BY THE WAY -- BY THE WAY, IN
06:27TERMS OF SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, I
06:29OFTEN HEAR AROUND HERE, WELL,
06:31WE'RE DOING TOO MUCH, THE
06:32EUROPEANS AREN'T DOING ENOUGH.
06:33AS A PERCENT OF GDP, WE ARE 15th
06:35IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF OUR
06:38SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.
06:39NUMBER 15.
06:42VIRTUALLY ALL THE EUROPEAN
06:43COUNTRIES ARE AHEAD OF US.
06:45I THINK ESTONIA IS CONTRIBUTING
06:47SOMETHING LIKE FIVE TIMES AS A
06:49PERCENT OF THEIR GDP THAN WE
06:51ARE.
06:52SO, THIS IDEA THAT THE EUROPEAN
06:54COUNTRIES AREN'T STEPPING UP,
06:55AREN'T PARTICIPATING, AS I SAID
06:56ON THE FLOOR THAT DAY, IS JUST
06:57BUNK.
07:00>> AND ACTUALLY JUST A WEEK OR
07:02SO AGO, THE EUROPEANS VERY
07:06CONSPICUOUSLY STEPPED IN WITH A
07:0850 BILLION EURO AID PACKAGE FOR
07:11UKRAINE, WHILE YOU AND THE
07:13UNITED STATES ARE STILL FUMBLING
07:14AROUND.
07:14I KNOW YOU ARE TRYING TO GET
07:16THEM TO PASS IT, BUT I WANT TO
07:18ASK YOU MORE ABOUT THIS TRUMP
07:19QUOTE.
07:20YOU KNOW THE SECRETARY-GENERAL
07:22OF NATO JENS STOLTENBERG DOESN'T
07:26TALK ABOUT INTERNAL U.S. POLICY
07:27OR STATEMENTS BY, YOU KNOW, BY
07:30CANDIDATES, BUT HE DID
07:31IMMEDIATELY STEP OUT AND IN A
07:34PREPARED STATEMENT SAID THAT ANY
07:36SUGGESTION THAT ALLIES WILL NOT
07:37DEFEND EACH OTHER UNDERMINES ALL
07:38OF OUR SECURITY, INCLUDING THAT
07:40OF THE U.S.
07:41AND PUTS AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN
07:42SOLDIERS AT INCREASED RISK.
07:46SO, THAT'S THAT POINT.
07:49I WANT TO ASK YOU WHETHER, LIKE
07:51SOME OF TRUMP'S DEFENDERS, DO
07:52YOU THINK THAT WAS JUST A
07:55TRUMPIAN CRAZY COMMENT ON A
07:56CAMPAIGN, OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT
08:00TRUMP SHOULD BE TAKEN AT HIS
08:02WORD, GIVEN THAT HE IS THE
08:04FRONT-RUNNER, YOU KNOW, FOR THE
08:05GOP?
08:08>> WELL, ANOTHER QUOTE I USED IN
08:10THAT SPEECH THAT YOU PLAYED A
08:11CLIP OF WAS MAYA ANGELO WHO ONCE
08:15SAID, IF SOMEONE TELLS YOU WHO
08:16THEY ARE, YOU SHOULD BELIEVE
08:17THEM.
08:17HE TOLD US WHO HE WAS.
08:18HE TOLD US WHAT HIS POLICY WOULD
08:20BE.
08:20HE'S BEEN THREATENING ONE WAY,
08:23SHAPE, OR FORM, TO GET OUT OF
08:24NATO SINCE HE WAS IN THE
08:25PRESIDENCY.
08:27SO, I -- THIS COMMENT WAS
08:28SHOCKING AND, AS I SAY, PRETTY
08:32MUCH UNBELIEVABLE, BUT IT'S
08:34CONSISTENT WITH THE DIRECTION
08:35THAT HE'S BEEN MOVING EVER
08:37SINCE.
08:37IT GOES THIS WHOLE IDEA OF
08:39AMERICA FIRST.
08:41YOU KNOW, THAT ECHOES FROM
08:45THE 1930s.
08:45THAT MEANS, WE DON'T SIDE WITH
08:48OUR ALLIES.
08:49BUT NATO HAS WORKED.
08:51IT HELD THE SOVIET UNION IN
08:52CHECK FOR 70, 60, 70 YEARS, AND
08:58TO UNDERMINE THE CONFIDENCE THAT
09:02OUR ALLIES HAVE, AND ALSO TO
09:03INVITE AGGRESSION FROM VLADIMIR
09:08PUTIN IS -- IS THE SHEEREST
09:10FOLLY.
09:10I -- AS YOU CAN SEE, I'M -- FOR
09:14A U.S. SENATOR, I'M SORT OF
09:16SPEECHLESS.
09:16IT WAS REALLY AN AMAZING,
09:19APPALLING STATEMENT.
09:19>> YOU KNOW, AS YOU HEARD
09:21PRESIDENT BIDEN, ALONG WITH THE
09:23GERMAN CHANCELLOR, ESSENTIALLY
09:24SAID THAT IF THE SENATE DOESN'T
09:27APPROVE THE FOREIGN AID PACKAGE,
09:29IT'S CLOSE TO CRIMINAL NEGLECT.
09:32REPUBLICAN MITCH McCONNELL, THE
09:34MINORITY LEADER IN THE SENATE,
09:36MADE A BIG APPEAL, YOU KNOW, GOP
09:39MITCH McCONNELL, MADE A BIG
09:40APPEAL OVER THE WEEKEND.
09:41JUST TAKE A LISTEN.
09:43>> I KNOW IT'S BECOME QUITE
09:46FASHIONABLE IN SOME CIRCLES TO
09:49DISREGARD THE GLOBAL INTERESTS
09:49WE HAVE AS A GLOBAL POWER.
09:56TO BE MOAN THE RESPONSIBILITIES
09:59OF GLOBAL LEADERSHIP.
10:00THIS IS THE IDLE WORK FOR IDLE
10:01MINDS, AND IT HAS NO PLACE IN
10:02THE UNITED STATES SENATE.
10:04>> I MEAN, AGAIN, THAT'S PRETTY
10:08DIRECT COMMENTARY AND ADVICE TO
10:09THE SENATE, OF WHICH YOU ARE A
10:10MEMBER, OF COURSE, AND YOU WERE
10:12PROBABLY THERE WHEN HE WAS
10:13SAYING THAT.
10:13SO, WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
10:15WHETHER YOU THINK THIS BILL IS
10:15ACTUALLY GOING TO GET THROUGH --
10:19>> WELL, NUMBER ONE, I WAS THERE
10:21WHEN HE MADE THAT SPEECH, AND IT
10:23WAS A VERY POWERFUL SPEECH.
10:25AND AS I SAY, THERE'S STRONG
10:28BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.
10:28WE HAVE 67 VOTES LAST NIGHT.
10:30I THINK WE COULD BE HEADED
10:32TOWARD EVEN A MORE LOPSIDED VOTE
10:34IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.
10:35I CERTAINLY HOPE SO.
10:37BUT ARE WE GOING TO GET IT DONE?
10:39I THINK SO.
10:40HERE'S WHAT'S GOING ON NOW.
10:42AS IS TYPICAL IN MANY PIECES OF
10:44MAJOR LEGISLATION.
10:45BOTH SIDES HAVE AMENDMENTS
10:46THEY'D LIKE TO RAISE.
10:48IN ORDER TO PROCESS AMENDMENTS
10:51YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TIME
10:53AGREEMENT, BECAUSE UNDER THE
10:55ARCANE RULES OF THE SENATE, EACH
10:57AMENDMENT COULD TAKE HOURS, IN
11:00FACT, EVEN DAYS, BEFORE YOU
11:01WOULD GET TO A VOTE.
11:02SO, IT INVOLVES A LITTLE BIT OF
11:03COOPERATION TO SAY, OKAY, WE'RE
11:06GOING TO DO THE AMENDMENTS, BUT
11:08WE'RE GOING TO COLLAPSE THE
11:09TIME.
11:09RIGHT NOW, SEVERAL OF THE
11:10MEMBERS ARE SAYING, WE'RE NOT
11:13GOING TO COOPERATE, WE'RE NOT
11:14GOING TO COLLAPSE THE TIME,
11:16WE'RE GOING TO REQUIRE THIS, YOU
11:17KNOW, TO GO FOR WEEKS.
11:18AND I THINK ONCE THAT HAPPENS,
11:22IF, INDEED, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS,
11:23WE MAY END UP MOVING TO THIS
11:26BILL WITHOUT AMENDMENTS, WHICH
11:28WOULD BE A SHAME.
11:29BUT I THINK THE PEOPLE THAT WANT
11:30THE AMENDMENTS SHOULD SAY, HEY,
11:32LET'S GET THIS THING DONE.
11:34>> AND CAN I JUST SWITCH A
11:36LITTLE BIT TO, YOU KNOW, ANOTHER
11:38VERY, VERY DIFFICULT WAR, AND
11:39THAT'S THE ONE IN THE MIDDLE
11:40EAST, WHICH INCREASINGLY
11:41PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS TEAM
11:46PUBLICLY EXPRESSING FRUSTRATION
11:48WITH THEIR ALLY NETANYAHU IN
11:48ISRAEL.
11:51AND URGING RESTRAINT ON
11:53CIVILIANS AND A PROPER, WORKABLE
11:55PLAN TO REMOVE ANY CIVILIANS
11:57FROM GAZA OUT OF HARM'S WAY.
11:59HOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN IS
12:01DIFFICULT TO SAY, BUT YOU KNOW,
12:03EVEN THE BRITISH FOREIGN
12:04SECRETARY HAS SAID, YOU KNOW,
12:06THAT THEY ARE VERY, VERY
12:07CONCERNED.
12:07WHAT DO YOU THINK U.S. POLICY
12:09SHOULD BE RIGHT NOW ON THIS
12:11ISSUE, GIVEN THE -- ACCORDING TO
12:14THE, YOU KNOW, THE PALESTINIAN
12:16HEALTH AUTHORITIES, NEARLY
12:1928,000 DEAD, INCLUDING CHILDREN
12:20IN GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
12:23>> WELL, THREE WEEKS AGO
12:25YESTERDAY, I WAS IN BENJAMIN
12:27NETANYAHU'S -- IN A MEETING WITH
12:29HIM, YOU KNOW, DIRECTLY, ACROSS
12:32THE TABLE, AND MADE THE SAME
12:34POINT.
12:34ONE OF THE POINTS I MADE WAS,
12:36THE BOMBING THAT YOU'RE NOW
12:36DOING IS HARMING ISRAEL AND
12:40CIVILIANS MORE THAN HAMAS.
12:42IT'S COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
12:44AND THE SAME GOES WITH THEIR
12:45SORT OF HALF-BAKED LACK OF
12:47COOPERATION WITH HUMANITARIAN
12:52AID.
12:52NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AN
12:53ATTACK ON RAFAH -- YOU GOT TO
12:54REMEMBER THAT A MONTH AND A
12:57HALF, TWO MONTHS AGO, THE
12:59ISRAELIS WERE SAYING, MOVE OUT
13:01OF GAZA CITY, MOVE SOUTH TO THE
13:03CIVILIANS, MOVE TO THE SOUTH OF
13:04GAZA, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO
13:06CONCENTRATE AND GET HAMAS.
13:07CIVILIANS DID THAT, AND NOW
13:08THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT ATTACKING
13:10THE VERY REGIONS WHERE THE
13:12CIVILIANS WENT IN ORDER TO SEEK
13:15SAFETY.
13:15I UNDERSTAND THE PRESIDENT'S
13:16FRUSTRATION.
13:19BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, IF HE WAS
13:21HERE, HE WOULD SAY, THE ISRAELI
13:21PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED AND HORRIFIED
13:24BY WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th,
13:25THE WORST ATTACK ON THE JEWISH
13:27PEOPLE SINCE THE HOLOCAUST.
13:29IN ISRAEL, IT'S STILL OCTOBER
13:307th.
13:31THAT -- THAT HORRENDOUS ACT IS
13:34STILL REVERBERATING.
13:36HOWEVER, WHAT THE ISRAELI -- THE
13:38ISRAELIS NEED TO GO AFTER HAMAS,
13:40BUT THE QUESTION IS, HOW TO DO
13:42IT, AND HOW TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN
13:43CASUALTIES, BECAUSE -- AND THIS
13:45IS WHAT I SAID TO NETANYAHU.
13:47I SAID, YOU MAY BE WINNING ON
13:49THE GROUND, AND I'M NOT SURE
13:51THAT'S HAPPENING NOW.
13:51YOU MAY BE WINNING ON THE
13:53GROUND, BUT YOU'RE LOSING THE
13:55INFORMATION WAR.
13:56AND THIS BOMBING OF CIVILIANS,
14:00FIN NANGLING WITH AID AND THOSE
14:03KIND OF THINGS ARE NOT DOING
14:05ISRAEL ANY GOOD.
14:06I SAID THIS AS A SUPPORTER, A
14:08FRIEND OF ISRAEL, BUT THIS IS A
14:09VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION.
14:10ONE IDEA THAT I'VE SUGGESTED TO
14:12THE WHITE HOUSE IS THAT WE MOVE
14:17A -- ONE OR TWO HOSPITAL SHIPS
14:19TO THE MEDITERRANEAN ON THE --
14:22ON THE SIDE OF GAZA, GAZA
14:24BORDERS THE MEDITERRANEAN.
14:25LET'S MOVE THOSE HOSPITAL SHIPS
14:27THERE SO IMPORTANT HEALTH CARE
14:28CAN BE PROVIDED WITHOUT HAMAS
14:31BEING IN THE BASEMENT, AND I
14:33THINK THAT'S A WAY THAT THE
14:34UNITED STATES COULD MAKE A
14:36REALLY SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION.
14:37>> YEAH, ONE OF YOUR ALLIES,
14:39FRANCE, HAS DONE THAT, AND IT
14:40ACTUALLY HAS WORKED.
14:41SO, THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO
14:42SEE.
14:43CAN I JUST FINALLY ASK YOU,
14:44BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S GOING
14:47TO BE A BIDEN/TRUMP MATCH-UP.
14:49BOB BOWER, WHO IS PRESIDENT
14:51BIDEN'S PERSONAL LAWYER, SAID
14:52THE SPECIAL COUNSEL REPORT ABOUT
14:55BIDEN'S MEMORY WENT, QUOTE, OFF
14:57THE RAILS.
14:58SO, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AS AN
15:01INDEPENDENT, WHEN IT COMES TO
15:02NOVEMBER, WHAT DO YOU THINK
15:07VOTERS WILL THINK?
15:08ARE THEY GOING TO BE FOCUSED ON
15:10BIDEN'S AGE AND TRUMP'S
15:11VOLATILITY, AND THE KIND OF
15:12THINGS HE SAID ABOUT RUSSIA AND
15:14THE LIKE?
15:15>> I THINK THE ANSWER IS BOTH.
15:17THERE'S NO QUESTION, FROM JUST
15:18TALKING TO PEOPLE, POLLS, ALL
15:18THE INFORMATION THAT PEOPLE ARE
15:20CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S
15:21AGE.
15:23THEY ARE ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT
15:26THE NATURE OF DONALD TRUMP, WHAT
15:27HE'S TALKING ABOUT DOING, THE
15:29DAMAGE HE WOULD DO TO THE
15:30COUNTRY, SO -- IT IS A CONCERN.
15:32I THINK WHAT JOE BIDEN HAS TO
15:33DO, BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER, IS
15:36DEMONSTRATE TO THE AMERICAN
15:37PEOPLE THAT HE HASN'T LOST A
15:38STEP.
15:38THAT HE'S ABLE TO GIVE AND TAKE
15:41AND WORK IN AN OPEN AND
15:47UNREHEARSED SETTING.
15:49AND CONVINCE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
15:51THAT HE'S STILL GOT IT.
15:53THAT'S GOING TO BE -- IT'S GOING
15:55TO BE AN ISSUE IN THE CAMPAIGN.
15:56THERE'S NO REASON TO -- TO DENY
15:58IT.
15:59AND WE'LL JUST HAVE TO SEE
16:00HOW -- HOW AND WHAT WAY THE
16:03PRESIDENT STEPS UP.
16:06>> SENATOR ANGUS KING, THANK YOU
16:07VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING
16:08US.
16:11>>> AND, AS WE SAID, TWO
16:13HOSTAGES ARE FREE TODAY, AFTER
16:15ISRAEL CONDUCTED AN OVERNIGHT
16:16OPERATION IN RAFAH TO RESCUE
16:23THEM.
16:24THE OPERATION ALSO KILLED DOZENS
16:27OF PALESTINIANS IN RAFAH, AND
16:29ACCESS TO FOOD, WATER, AND
16:30MEDICINE IS GROWING INCREASINGLY
16:31LIMITED.
16:34BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, ISRAELI
16:36CHARITY ROAD TO RECOVERY WORKED
16:38TIRELESSLY TO HELP TAKE SICK
16:41PALESTINIANS, MOSTLY CHILDREN,
16:42FROM GAZA TO ISRAELI HOSPITALS.
16:44ON OCTOBER 7th, HAMAS KILLED
16:46SOME OF THE VOLUNTEERS AMID THE
16:481,200 ISRAELIS WHO WERE
16:53SLAUGHTERED, WERE WOMEN LIKE
16:54VIVIAN SILVA, WHO WORKED FOR
16:55THIS CHARITY.
16:57BUT DESPITE SUCH HORROR, THE
17:03CHARITY IS FIGHTING.
17:18YAEL NOY, THANK YOU FOR BEING
17:20WITH US.
17:21I WANT TO JUST START WITH THAT
17:23STATEMENT, BECAUSE IT'S
17:25PRETTY -- IT'S PRETTY PROFOUND
17:26AND GOES TO THE HEART OF
17:29HUMANITY, AND I WONDER HOW YOU
17:31HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP YOUR
17:35HUMANITY AFTER THIS HORROR THAT
17:36YOUR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES AND
17:37PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO.
17:42>> I REALLY DON'T KNOW.
17:44I JUST COULDN'T STOP.
17:46I THOUGHT I JUST MUST KEEP ON
17:49DOING WHAT I'M DOING, BECAUSE
17:51OTHERWISE, I WILL DRIVE ME NUTS,
17:54YOU KNOW?
17:54IT WAS SUCH A TERRIBLE DAY, AND
17:56WE ARE STILL IN THOSE TERRIBLE
17:58DAYS, SO, I THINK WHEN I'M DOING
18:00MY JOB, I'M JUST TAKING CARE OF
18:03MYSELF, YOU KNOW?
18:05BEFORE EVEN THE PALESTINIANS,
18:07AND I'M JUST TAKING CARE OF OUR
18:11SOCIETY, TO STAY MORAL AND GOOD,
18:13BECAUSE IT'S REALLY, REALLY HARD
18:15IN THESE DAYS TO DO IT.
18:17>> TELL ME, WHAT DID YOU USED TO
18:21DO, JUST FOR OUR AUDIENCE TO
18:24UNDERSTAND, WHAT DID YOUR GROUP
18:25USED TO DO BEFORE OCTOBER 7th?
18:29>> WE'RE DOING THE SAME NOW.
18:31WE TAKE PALESTINIANS THAT NEED
18:32TO GO TO TREATMENT IN ISRAEL,
18:34SO, WE ARE PICKING THEM UP FROM
18:36THE CHECKPOINTS IN THE EARLY
18:38MORNING TO THE HOSPITAL, AND
18:40WHILE THEY FINISH, THEY'RE
18:42CALLING US AND WE'RE TAKING THEM
18:43BACK TO THE CHECKPOINT.
18:44SO, WE DID IT WITH GAZA PATIENT
18:46AND ALSO THE WEST BANK PATIENT,
18:48AND SINCE THE EIGHT OF OCTOBER,
18:50WE TAKE JUST THE PEOPLE FROM THE
18:51WEST BANK, AND WE HAVE NO BORDER
18:53WITH GAZA NOW.
18:56>> SO, YOU KNOW, JUST SOME OF
18:58THE STATS.
18:59BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, YOUR
19:01ORGANIZATION, ROAD TO RECOVERY,
19:02FERRIED MORE THAN 1,500
19:04PALESTINIAN PATIENTS FROM GAZA
19:06AND THE WEST BANK TO HOSPITALS
19:08INSIDE ISRAEL EVERY YEAR.
19:10AND, OF COURSE, YOU WERE TAKING
19:12THEM TO AID THAT WAS COMPLETELY
19:14UNAVAILABLE FOR THEM IN THE
19:15PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.
19:16AND WAY BACK IN MAY, BEFORE THE
19:20ATTACKS, YOU SAID, I COULDN'T
19:21LIVE HERE WITHOUT DOING
19:22SOMETHING.
19:22WE LIVE IN SUCH A COMPLEX AND
19:23DIFFICULT REALITY.
19:25THIS IS A TINY GESTURE I DO IN
19:28ORDER TO FACE THIS REALITY.
19:29I'M ASSUMING FROM WHAT YOU SAID,
19:31YOU STAND BY THAT NOW, BUT HOW
19:33HAS YOUR RELATIONSHIP CHANGED IN
19:36THE INTERVENING MONTHS BETWEEN
19:39YOURSELF AND THOSE PALESTINIANS
19:41WHO YOU'RE STILL HELPING,
19:42BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GROUP?
19:46>> I DON'T THINK WE CHANGE.
19:48WE'RE STILL -- I HAVE A LOT OF
19:50FRIENDS ALSO OR COLLEAGUES IN
19:52GAZA AND IN THE WEST BANK, AND
19:54WE KEEP ON TRYING TO BE -- I
19:59DON'T KNOW TO BE FRIENDS, BUT TO
20:00BE NEIGHBORS, LIKE GOOD
20:04RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BOTH OF US,
20:05BECAUSE BOTH OF THE SOCIETY WILL
20:06STAY HERE EVEN AFTER THE WAR, SO
20:09WE ARE DOING JUST THE SAME.
20:10SOMETIMES IN THE RIGHT, WHILE
20:14I'M TAKING THE PATIENT, THERE IS
20:15SILENCE IN THE CAR, AND THEY
20:17SOMETIMES EVEN GET SLEEP, BUT I
20:19THINK THE TIME THAT WE ARE
20:20TOGETHER IS LIKE SEEDS OF HOPE
20:23FOR THE OTHER DAYS THAT THEY
20:25KNOW US AND WE KNOW THEM AND
20:25THEY -- THEY WILL REMEMBER THAT
20:29WE GIVE OUR HAND EVEN IN THOSE
20:30TERRIBLE TIMES.
20:33>> AND TO REMIND PEOPLE, MANY OF
20:34THE -- MANY OF THE ISRAELIS WHO
20:38WERE IN THOSE VILLAGES AND
20:41KIBBUTZES NEAR THE GAZA BORDER
20:43HAVE HAD TO BE EVACUATED TO
20:45OTHER PARTS OF -- SO, YOU ARE
20:46DOING THIS, OR MANY OF YOUR
20:50VOLUNTEERS, EVEN HAVING BEEN
20:51FORCED TO RELOCATE.
20:53YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF NEPHEWS IN
20:54THE IDF, AND YOUR BROTHER IS A
20:56PILOT IN THE AIR FORCE.
20:57HOW DOES YOUR FAMILY REACT?
21:00HOW DOES YOUR ISRAELI FRIENDS
21:02WHO ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THIS
21:03WORK REACT TO YOUR CONTINUED
21:04OUTREACH?
21:08>> WOW, I THINK THIS IS THE
21:10HARDEST THING, BECAUSE, WITH MY
21:12FAMILY, WITH MY BROTHER, I TRY
21:13NOT TO TALK A LOT ABOUT WHAT I'M
21:15DOING NOW, BECAUSE IT'S -- IT'S
21:17VERY PAINFUL, YOU KNOW, ALL OF
21:19OUR SOCIETY IS SO WOUNDED NOW,
21:20AND I DON'T WANT TO HURT ANYONE
21:23ABOUT TALKING WITH WHAT I'M
21:25DOING, BECAUSE I KNOW SOME OF
21:26THEM ARE REALLY DON'T LIKE IT,
21:29SO I'M KEEP ON DOING IT, BUT I'M
21:31MORE CAUTIOUS WHEN I'M TALKING
21:33ABOUT IT IN -- TO THE ISRAELI
21:37SOCIETY, BECAUSE SOME SAY, NOW
21:38YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE A SIDE.
21:39YOU CANNOT HELP THE ENEMY, EVEN
21:41THOUGH I DON'T THINK THOSE
21:43PATIENT THAT I'M TAKING THEY ARE
21:45MY ENEMY AT ALL.
21:46BUT NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN
21:48ISRAEL CAN HEAR IT RIGHT NOW.
21:53>> YAEL, YOUR OWN PARENTS WERE
21:55HIDING ON OCTOBER 7th.
21:56THEY ARE FROM A KIBBUTZ, ONE OF
22:00THOSE THAT WAS ATTACKED.
22:02I -- TELL US HOW THEY MANAGED TO
22:04SURVIVE, HOW YOU FELT, HOW THAT
22:06DAY WENT DOWN FOR YOU.
22:08>> WOW.
22:10LISTEN, THIS WAS A TERRIBLE DAY,
22:11AND I THINK MOST OF THE DAY, WE
22:15DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW -- HOW BAD
22:16IT IS, BECAUSE MY PARENTS ARE
22:21RELIGIOUS, SO, IN THE BEGINNING,
22:23IN THE MORNING, THE PHONE WAS
22:25CLOSED.
22:25THEY DON'T TALK ON THE PHONE.
22:31AFTER FEW HOURS, THEY UNDERSTAND
22:33THEY SHOULD OPEN THE PHONE AND I
22:34TALK TO THEM AND THEY SAID THEY
22:35ARE SAFE IN THE SAFE ROOM, BUT
22:37THEY ARE HEARING THINGS OUTSIDE,
22:39AND WE JUST ASKED THEM TO STAY
22:40SAFE AND NOT TO GO OUT.
22:43MY FATHER IN THE MORNING, HE
22:44DIDN'T KNOW, SO, HE WENT TO THE
22:46SYNAGOGUE, YOU KNOW, HE WAS JUST
22:47WALKING IN THE KIBBUTZ AND
22:49SOMEONE SEE HIM AND SAY, RUN
22:52AWAY, AND SO, MY PARENTS WERE
22:54THERE IN THE SAFE ROOM, AND WE
22:55WERE GOING NUTS, ME AND MY
23:00SISTER AND MY BROTHER, AND WE
23:01WERE JUST PRAYING THAT IT WILL
23:03END.
23:04>> YEAH.
23:04WELL, WE'RE VERY HAPPY THAT FOR
23:05THEM IT DID END SAFELY.
23:08YOU STILL HAVE TWO MEMBERS OF
23:11ROAD TO RECOVERY WHO ARE BEING
23:14HELD HOSTAGE.
23:14ONE OF THEM IS 83 YEARS OLD, AND
23:19ANOTHER WHO IS 79.
23:21YOU HAVE KNOW -- DO YOU THINK
23:23THAT YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THEM
23:25AGAIN?
23:26>> WOW.
23:28I'M PRAYING EVERY DAY THAT THEY
23:30WILL BE BACK, BUT YOU KNOW,
23:31I'M -- WE CANNOT LOSE THE HOPE,
23:33SO, WE'RE JUST HOLDING THE HOPE
23:34AND MAKING THE HOPE EVERY DAY
23:38AGAIN AND AGAIN.
23:39THEY MUST COME BACK.
23:41>> I WANT TO PLAY THIS FROM YOU,
23:44FOR YOU, IT WAS ACTUALLY OCTOBER
23:4517th, SO, ABOUT TEN DAYS AFTER
23:48THIS, WE HAD SHARON LIFSHITZ
23:51HERE IN THE STUDIO FOR ONE OF
23:52OUR SEVERAL INTERVIEWS WITH HER,
23:54AND AS WE KNOW, HER MOTHER WAS
23:55ONE OF THE FIRST, IF NOT THE
23:56FIRST TO HAVE BEEN -- TO HAVE
23:57BEEN RELEASED EARLY ON.
24:02THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT HER
24:03FATHER AND HIS COMMITMENT.
24:05>> MY FATHER HAD VERY STRONG
24:07OPINION ABOUT THINGS, BUT HE
24:10ALSO FELT THAT YOU MAKE PEACE
24:11WITH ENEMIES, THAT OUR JOB IS TO
24:15FIND SHARED GROUND.
24:17I THINK GROUNDED IN HUMANITY.
24:19AND THERE'S NO ALTERNATIVE.
24:20AND I DON'T THINK HISTORY SHOWS
24:24US THAT THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE.
24:26>> AND YAEL, ONE OF THE IRONIES
24:29IS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ATTACKED
24:31WERE THE VERY PEOPLE WHO
24:31ACTUALLY HELPED A LOT WITH THE
24:36PALESTINIANS.
24:36AND I WONDER, THE PEOPLE WHO
24:38WERE ATTACKED BY HAMAS, AND I
24:40WONDER WHAT YOU THINK NOW WHEN
24:42YOU THINK OF YOUR PATIENTS, THE
24:44PEOPLE IN GAZA, YOU SEE THE
24:46DEATH TOLL MOUNTING, THE INJURY
24:48TOLL, YOU KNOW, SKYROCKETING.
24:50DO YOU HEAR ANYTHING FROM THEM?
24:52ARE YOU ABLE TO CONTACT?
24:53I MEAN, THEY CLEARLY DON'T HAVE
24:55ACCESS TO THE KIND OF HELP YOU
24:56WERE PROVIDING BEFORE.
25:00>> NO, WE -- WE CANNOT HELP
25:01THEM, BUT WE ARE -- I THINK THE
25:05MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT I CAN
25:05DO NOW IS TO BE A WITNESS FOR
25:08THEIR SUFFERING, YOU KNOW?
25:09AND I'M TALKING WITH THEM.
25:10AND THEY CALL ME, AND EVEN MY
25:12DAD, HE'S IN TOUCH WITH ONE OF
25:13THE PATIENT THAT HE WAS -- HE
25:17WAS TAKING A SMALL CHILD, AND HE
25:21WAS TAKING HER AND HER DAD A LOT
25:22TO THE HOSPITALS IN ISRAEL, AND
25:26HE'S IN TOUCH NOW WITH HER
25:27FATHER, AND HE -- THEY BOTH
25:32WORRIED FOR EACH OTHER, SO I --
25:34WE CANNOT REALLY HELP THEM.
25:35WE TRY TO SEND MEDICINE IN THE
25:37BEGINNING OF THE WAR, BUT THE
25:38MEDICINE DIDN'T GET INTO -- THEY
25:42DIDN'T GET THEM.
25:43SO, NOW, I JUST CAN TALK WITH
25:46THEM AND SAY, I KNOW WHAT
25:48THEY'RE GOING THROUGH, AND I'M
25:50WITNESS, YOU KNOW, JUST TO HOLD
25:51THIS WITH THEM.
25:55>> YAEL NOY, ROAD TO RECOVERY,
25:57THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR
25:59BEING WITH US.
26:00AND CONTINUING YOUR IMPORTANT
26:01WORK.
26:01>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
26:03>> THANK YOU.
26:04>> THANKS A LOT.
26:06>>> NOW, PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN
26:09NETANYAHU TOLD ABC NEWS THIS
26:10WEEKEND THAT RAFAH IS, QUOTE,
26:14THE LAST BASTION OF HAMAS.
26:17PRESIDENT BIDEN PRESSURED HIM TO
26:19ENSURE THE SAFETY OF CIVILIANS
26:20THERE.
26:20LISTEN TO ONE MAN SAY THAT HE
26:22FEELS COMPLETELY TRAPPED NOW.
26:26>> Translator: IF BY SOME
26:29MISFORTUNE THERE'S AN INVASION
26:30OF RAFAH, IT MEANS TWO-THIRDS OF
26:32THE POPULATION WILL DIE.
26:34EVERYWHERE ELSE, THERE'S ALWAYS
26:35A WAY TO GET OUT AND ESCAPE.
26:37BUT WE CAN'T GET OUT OF RAFAH.
26:38WE HAVE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.
26:41EITHER WE DIE HERE OR WE DIE IN
26:43OUR HOMES.
26:44>> EITHER WE DIE HERE OR WE DIE
26:46IN OUR HOMES, HE SAID.
26:47JOURNALIST SARAH HELM KNOWS GAZA
26:49WELL, HAVING VISITED AND WORKED
26:50THERE, AND IS SOUNDING THE ALARM
26:52BELL ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF
26:53PUSHING INTO RAFAH NEXT.
26:54WELCOME, SARAH, TO THE PROGRAM.
26:55>> THANK YOU.
26:56>> SO, YOU HAVE SPENT A LOT OF
26:58TIME AS A MIDDLE EAST
27:00CORRESPONDENT FOR THE
27:01INDEPENDENT, YOU'VE WRITTEN
27:03BOOKS AND YOU SPENT A LOT OF
27:04TIME IN THAT REGION.
27:05AND SPECIFICALLY IN GAZA.
27:06>> YEAH.
27:07>> TELL US WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW
27:08ABOUT RAFAH NOW.
27:11WHAT IS THE CONFIGURATION?
27:13WHERE CAN PEOPLE GO, WHAT CAN
27:14THEY DO TO GET OUT OF THIS?
27:16>> SO, RAFAH HAS LONG BEEN KNOWN
27:20AS -- BASICALLY A BORDER TOWN.
27:22IT'S RIGHT UP AGAINST THE BORDER
27:23WITH EGYPT TO ITS SOUTH, THE
27:28SINAI DESERT BLOWS IN ACROSS
27:30RAFAH.
27:30THERE USED TO BE HUGE SAND DUNES
27:32ON THE EDGE OF THE TOWN.
27:33AND THEN TO ITS EAST IS ISRAEL.
27:35TO ITS WEST IS THE SEA.
27:37TO ITS NORTH IS THE REST OF THE
27:39GAZA STRIP.
27:40SO, WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING OVER
27:41THE LAST -- SINCE OCTOBER IS
27:45THAT THE ISRAELI ARMY HAS PUSHED
27:49PEOPLE SOUTH, AND THEIR OBVIOUS
27:52INTENTION, IN MY VIEW, AND IN
27:54MANY PEOPLE'S VIEWS, HAS BEEN TO
27:57GATHER EVERYONE BY THE RAFAH
27:59BORDER IN SUCH A SITUATION WHERE
28:00THEY CREATE SUCH A HORRIFIC
28:03NIGHTMARE OF CROWDS, MORE THAN A
28:07MILLION PEOPLE, PUSHED UP
28:08AGAINST THE BORDER FENCE, VERY
28:11LITTLE ACCESS TO HUMANITARIAN
28:13AID, AND THEY WILL CREATE A
28:16SENSE OF DESPERATION AND
28:18HYSTERIA THAT EGYPT WILL HAVE NO
28:19CHOICE BUT TO OPEN ITS BORDER
28:21AND THEY WILL END UP GOING
28:22THROUGH THERE.
28:22>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU THIS,
28:24BECAUSE THAT GENTLEMAN THERE
28:26SAID, YOU KNOW, WE'RE EITHER
28:27GOING TO DIE HERE OR IN OUR
28:30HOUSE, YOU KNOW -- ARE YOU
28:31HEARING FROM PEOPLE THERE?
28:32ARE YOU IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE
28:33THERE NOW?
28:34>> YES, I AM.
28:35>> BECAUSE THERE IS A SENSE OF
28:37PANIC, WE'RE HEARING.
28:38>> I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS
28:40IS THAT THERE ISN'T ANY
28:42INTERNATIONAL MEDIA ON THE
28:43GROUND.
28:44I SPEAK TO PEOPLE AS BEST I CAN.
28:46I SPEAK TO PEOPLE OUTSIDE WHO
28:47ARE PALESTINIANS WITH FAMILY
28:48INSIDE.
28:49THEY ARE BRILLIANT AT BEING IN
28:50TOUCH WITH EACH OTHER, THEY HAVE
28:51THEIR WAYS.
28:53SO, I SPOKE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO A
28:55VERY, VERY GOOD FRIEND LAST
28:58NIGHT, A WOMAN TRANSLATOR WHO IS
29:01CURRENTLY IN AMERICA, I WORKED
29:02WITH HER A LOT, AND SHE WAS --
29:04HER MOTHER AND HER TWO SISTERS
29:05AND THEIR HUSBANDS AND THEIR
29:06SMALL BABIES ARE ALL IN GAZA.
29:08THEY LIVED IN THE MIDDLE AREA.
29:10SHE GAVE ME A VERY DIFFERENT
29:12PICTURE, NOT IN ANY BIG SENSE,
29:14BUT JUST KIND OF A TEXTURE.
29:16SO, THEY HAD FLED FROM THEIR
29:17HOUSE IN THE MIDDLE AREA, AS
29:20EVERYBODY ELSE HAD, TO RAFAH AND
29:22THEY SET UP THEIR TENT AND MADE
29:23THEIR TENT WITH OLD BLANKETS AND
29:25OLD TOWELS AND THE BABIES HAD
29:27THEIR NAPPIES AND EVERYTHING
29:28THAT WE'VE BEEN HEARING,
29:28DESPERATION.
29:30AND THE MOTHER HAD SAID,
29:32ACTUALLY, THIS IS -- WE CAN'T
29:33TOLERATE THIS.
29:34THIS IS APPALLING, WE'RE GOING
29:35TO GO BACK.
29:36SO, A FEW DAYS AGO, THEY
29:38WALKED -- THEY WALKED SOME OF
29:39THE WAY, IT'S TOO FAR, THEY GOT
29:41A TRUCK OR SOMETHING, AND THEY
29:42MADE THEIR WAY UP THE COAST ROAD
29:44BACK TO THE MIDDLE AREA, AND
29:44THEY'RE BACK NOW HOME.
29:47>> OKAY, SO, THIS IS
29:49INTERESTING, BECAUSE THE ISRAELI
29:51PRIME MINISTER, OR SPOKESPEOPLE,
29:51HAVE SAID, WELL, WHY DON'T THEY
29:54JUST GO BACK TO THE NORTH, WE'VE
29:56CLEARED HAMAS OUT OF THE NORTH,
29:59AND MAYBE THEY'RE GOING TO GO
30:00BACK THERE.
30:01IS THAT ACTUALLY POSSIBLE?
30:03MAYBE THESE PEOPLE HAD HOUSES
30:04LEFT --
30:04>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A VERY,
30:06VERY MIXED PICTURE.
30:07I THINK IT'S VERY CONFUSED, AND
30:09I THINK WE'RE NOT GETTING FULL
30:11PICTURE, BUT WHAT I CAN GATHER,
30:12IN THE NORTH, QUITE A LOT OF
30:14PEOPLE DIDN'T LEAVE.
30:15LESS PEOPLE THAN YOU THINK
30:17STAYED.
30:18NOW, WHAT I'M TOLD IS THAT IF
30:19YOU'RE WANDERING AROUND AND, YOU
30:21KNOW, THESE PEOPLE HAVE HUGE
30:23CONNECTIONS, ALL THE DIFFERENT
30:24GROUPS OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA
30:25HAVE SET UP THEIR OWN SORT OF --
30:27IF YOU LIKE, WHATS APP GROUPS,
30:31IT'S NOT WHATS APP, IT'S THEIR
30:34OWN VERSION OF IT, RAFAH, GAZA,
30:36SET SET TRA.
30:37SO, APPARENTLY, IF YOU ARE IN
30:38THE NORTH AND YOU'RE IN GAZA
30:39CITY, YOU WILL PROBABLY FIND
30:42ABOUT THREE FAMILIES LIVING IN
30:44EACH STREET.
30:45THAT KIND OF THING.
30:45MOST OF IT IS GONE.
30:47MOST OF IT IS DESTROYED.
30:49BUT A LOT OF THEM ARE JUST GOING
30:50BACK AND LIVING IN THE RUBBLE.
30:52SO, I HAVE ASKED PEOPLE, SO, HOW
30:54ARE YOU FEEDING YOURSELVES,
30:55PARTICULARLY IN THE NORTH?
30:56THEY ARE INCREDIBLY INVENTIVE,
30:58THE PALESTINIANS, AND THE GAZANS
31:01PARTICULARLY, BECAUSE THEY'VE
31:02HAD TO BE.
31:03THEY -- YOU KNOW, THEY'RE
31:04DESCRIBED AS THE GREATEST
31:06PATCHER UPPERS IN THE WORLD,
31:07BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THEY'VE EVER
31:08DONE, AND SO, WHAT THEY'RE NOW
31:10DOING, WHICH I HADN'T HEARD
31:11BEFORE, THEY'RE GOING -- A LOT
31:12OF SHOPS AND A LOT OF STORES
31:14WERE DESTROYED AND SUPERMARKETS,
31:16EVEN IN GAZA CITY, BY THE
31:18RUBBLE, THEY ARE GOING INTO THE
31:18RUBBLE OF THE STORES AND GETTING
31:21FOOD OUT, TINS, PASTA, RICE,
31:24STUFF THAT WAS IN THE STORES
31:26THAT JUST WENT UNDER THE RUBBLE.
31:27THEY'RE DOING THAT.
31:27MY FRIEND WHO IS AN AMERICAN,
31:29HER LITTLE BROTHER IS -- THEY'VE
31:33GOT HOME NOW, HE IS GOING OUT
31:37AND FINDING FOOD.
31:37WHICH HE ENJOYS, BECAUSE IT'S
31:39KIND OF SOMETHING HE CAN
31:41CONTRIBUTE TO THE FAMILY'S
31:43SURVIVAL.
31:43BUT THERE ARE DRONES OVER THEM
31:44ALL THE TIME AND BOMBS DROPPING
31:47SPORADICALLY STILL NOW.
31:48BUT THE OTHER IMPORTANT THING TO
31:49SAY ABOUT THAT WAS THAT I'M TOLD
31:51THAT THIS MIDDLE AREA, THERE ARE
31:53VERY FEW ISRAELIS IN IT.
31:55AND THEY HAVEN'T --
31:56>> IS THE MIDDLE AREA, IS THAT
31:58GAZA CITY AREA?
31:59>> NO, IT'S SOUTH OF GAZA CITY,
32:01BUT BETWEEN GAZA CITY AND RAFAH,
32:04SO, LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF
32:04THE STRIP, AND THE ISRAELI ARMY
32:07HAS NOT YET PUSHED OR HAS NOT
32:09PUSHED RIGHT THROUGH TO THE SEA,
32:11BECAUSE THE -- SO, THERE'S A
32:12SENSE OF FREEDOM THERE, IN A
32:15WAY, BUT OF COURSE, THERE'S NO
32:15AID, NO NOTHING.
32:18ALTHOUGH THEY'RE SETTING UP
32:19LITTLE CLINKS.
32:20NOW, HER MOTHER IS A DIABETIC,
32:22AND SHE NEEDS MEDICINE, AND I
32:24SAID, HOW IS SHE DOING?
32:25SHE SAID, WELL, EXTRAORDINARILY,
32:26THERE'S A LITTLE CLINK THAT'S
32:28REOPENED.
32:28I SAID, WHO'S RUNNING IT?
32:30AND SHE SAID, VOLUNTEERS.
32:31SO, THEY'RE --
32:32>> TOTAL DIY SITUATION.
32:33>> TOTAL DIY SITUATION.
32:35SO, IN TERMS OF YOUR QUESTION
32:37ABOUT CAN PEOPLE MOVE BACK
32:38NORTH, I DON'T THINK THAT THE
32:41ISRAELI ARMY OR THE PRIME
32:42MINISTER OR ANYONE HAS A CLUE
32:43WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
32:45THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA WILL DO
32:47WHAT THEY CAN.
32:48IF THEY THINK THEY CAN GET BACK
32:49UP NORTH.
32:50NOW, APPARENTLY, WHEN THIS
32:52PARTICULAR FAMILY WENT NORTH ON
32:53THE SEA ROAD, I SAID, THERE MUST
32:55HAVE BEEN CHECKPOINTS, SHE SAID,
32:57NO, THERE WEREN'T.
32:59IT WAS DANGEROUS, THERE ARE
33:00DRONES AND STUFF GOING ON ALL
33:01THE TIME, BUT THEY GOT BACK.
33:03SO I THINK SOME OF THEM WILL
33:04START GOING BACK NORTH, YES.
33:06>> YOU KNOW, IN YOUR TIMES THAT
33:08YOU WERE THERE, I WONDER, DID
33:10YOU HAVE ANY ENCOUNTERS, DID YOU
33:12INTERVIEW HAMAS LEADERS.
33:12>> YES, MANY.
33:14>> WHAT DID THEY SAY ABOUT THEIR
33:17ESSENTIAL INABILITY TO PROVIDE
33:18FOR THE DAILY NEEDS OF THE
33:19PALESTINIANS?
33:20I MEAN, THERE WERE PROTESTS BY
33:23PALESTINIANS IN GAZA SHORTLY
33:24BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.
33:25AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW,
33:29THEY'VE SPENT SO MUCH TIME BEING
33:32QUOTE UNQUOTE RESISTANCE.
33:34>> HOW COULD HAMAS PROVIDE FOR
33:36THE INHABITANTS?
33:37THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.
33:38GAZA HAS BEEN UNDER BLOCKADE.
33:42>> BUT THEY GET THE MONEY, YOU
33:43KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
33:44THEY'VE BEEN GETTING $30 MILLION
33:45A YEAR, FAMOUSLY, A MONTH.
33:49NETANYAHU SAID IT WAS OKAY FOR
33:50THE QATARIS TO SEND IT IN, FOR
33:53HUMANITARIAN REASONS.
33:54>> BUT THEY CAN'T IMPORT
33:56ANYTHING.
33:56ISRAEL CONTROLS EVERYTHING GOING
33:57IN IN TERMS OF FOOD AID, I MEAN,
34:02OKAY, HAMAS RULES GAZA, AND IN A
34:06WAY, I ALWAYS SORT OF SAW IT AS
34:09AN INTERNAL JAILERS FOR GAZA,
34:10FRANKLY.
34:16THEY DO RULE IT.
34:17THEY CONTROL A LOT OF THE STUFF.
34:18BUT IN TERMS OF -- WHICH BRINGS
34:20ME TO THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT
34:21THAT EVERYBODY HAS TO REMEMBER
34:23IS THAT NEARLY ALL THE PEOPLE IN
34:25GAZA ARE REFUGEES FROM 1948.
34:27>> RIGHT.
34:28>> THEY -- PEOPLE DON'T KNOW
34:30ABOUT GOING HOME TO THE NORTH OF
34:31GAZA.
34:32ACTUALLY, WHERE THEY WANT TO GO
34:33HOME TO IS THE VILLAGES JUST
34:35ACROSS THE FENCE.
34:35>> YEAH.
34:37>> AND --
34:37>> THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER STORY.
34:39>> IT IS, BUT IT'S RELATED,
34:41BECAUSE I DON'T THINK YOU CAN
34:42UNDERSTAND, OR THAT ANYBODY CAN
34:44UNDERSTAND THE TRAUMA OR THE WAY
34:46THEY'RE REACTING AS
34:48PALESTINIANS, UNLESS YOU KNOW
34:49THIS.
34:50>> YEAH.
34:50THEY'VE CALLED IT THE -- BUT I
34:53WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THIS IS
34:55SUPER IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW, AND
34:56YOU MENTIONED IT AT THE
34:58BEGINNING, THIS -- THIS IDEA OF
35:00PUSHING THEM OUT INTO EGYPT.
35:02WELL, YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELIS SAY
35:03IT'S NOT THEIR AIM, THE
35:05AMERICANS SAY, WE WON'T SUPPORT
35:07THAT, THE EGYPTIANS HAVE
35:10FORTIFIED THE BORDER MILITARILY,
35:12THEY DON'T WANT THAT, EITHER.
35:13>> NO.
35:14>> IT'S UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN,
35:16RIGHT?
35:16>> IT'S EXTREMELY UNLIKELY,
35:20BECAUSE THE EGYPTIANS ABSOLUTELY
35:22WON'T LET THEM I UNDER THE
35:24CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES.
35:25NOT SO MUCH BECAUSE THEY DON'T
35:26WANT TO LET THEM IN, BUT TO DO
35:29SO IS PRECISELY, BACK IN 1948.
35:32YOU LET THEM INTO EGYPT, WHICH
35:34IS A LOT OF ISRAELI LEADERS HAVE
35:36SAID --
35:38>> HAVE SAID, YEAH.
35:39>> AND THEY WILL NEVER GO BACK.
35:41YOU'LL HAVE ANOTHER SET OF
35:42REFUGEE CAMPS IN JORDAN, IN
35:44LEBANON, AND THEY'LL NEVER BE
35:45ABLE TO RETURN, AND THE
35:46EGYPTIANS KNOW THAT, AND THE
35:47PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES DON'T
35:48WANT TO BUT MY -- MY
35:50UNDERSTANDING AND MY PREDICTION
35:51IS, UNLESS, YOU KNOW, WORLD
35:55LEADERS, BIDEN, OBVIOUSLY, IN
35:57PARTICULAR, STEP UP AND SEE WHAT
35:59AN ABOMINATION IS GOING ON UNDER
36:02HIS WATCH, WHAT A HORRIFIC
36:05SLAUGHTER AND CATASTROPHE HAS
36:07ALREADY GONE ON, THEN -- THEN WE
36:10MIGHT HAVE SUCH A HUMANITARIAN
36:11CRISIS THAT THE WORLD FEELS
36:12THEY'VE GOT TO LET THEM INTO
36:14EGYPT.
36:14>> INCLUDING THE NEW FOREIGN
36:16SECRETARY, LORD CAMERON, HAS
36:17TOLD THEM TO THINK VERY
36:19CAREFULLY.
36:19BUT DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO
36:21HAVE ANY EFFECT?
36:22>> NOT ON NETANYAHU, NO.
36:23I DON'T THINK IT WILL.
36:24BUT I THINK -- I THINK IT MIGHT
36:27HAVE AN EFFECT ON OTHER WORLD
36:29LEADERS MAYBE.
36:29>> INTERESTING.
36:30SARAH HELM, THANK YOU VERY MUCH,
36:32INDEED.
36:32THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING ON
36:33THE GROUND INFORMATION ABOUT THE
36:35SURVIVAL OF PEOPLE THERE.
36:36>> YEAH.
36:37>>> NOW, IT IS NO SURPRISE THAT
36:39ALL EYES ARE ON THE U.S., AS JOE
36:43BIDEN AND DONALD TRUMP VIE FOR
36:44THE PRESIDENCY, AND THE MOST
36:47INFLUENTIAL JOB IN THE WORLD.
36:47BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN LEADERS
36:49LEAVE THE WHITE HOUSE?
36:50IN HI NEWS BOOK, FORMER STATE
36:52DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL JARED COHEN
36:53TAKES A LOOK, A CLOSE LOOK, AT
36:56SEVEN PAST U.S. PRESIDENTS AND
36:58THE PATHS THEY TOOK AFTERWARDS.
37:00AND HE'S JOINING WALTER
37:02ISAACSON.
37:03>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
37:08AND JARED COHEN, WELCOME TO THE
37:09SHOW.
37:10>> IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE, WALTER.
37:12>> YOU KNOW, IN 1797, WHEN
37:16GEORGE WASHINGTON LEAVES OFFICE,
37:17I WAS LOOKING AT YOUR BOOK "LIFE
37:18AFTER POWER" AND I REALIZE THAT
37:20THE WORLD WASN'T REALLY --
37:22DIDN'T HAVE MANY EXAMPLES OF
37:24WHAT HAPPENS, I MEAN, NAPOLEON,
37:27WE DIDN'T HAVE THE LIFE AFTER
37:29POWER SYNDROME.
37:30TELL ME, WHY DID YOU START
37:31WRITING THIS BOOK AND WHAT ARE
37:35WE LOOKING FOR WHEN WE LOOK
37:36ABOUT LIFE AFTER POWER?
37:37>> LOOK, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN
37:39INTERESTED IN THIS ILLUSIVE
37:40QUESTION OF, WHAT DO WE DO NEXT?
37:42AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHERE WE
37:43OFTEN LOOK FOR CASE STUDIES TO
37:45INFORM OUR OWN TRANSITIONS,
37:47WHOEVER WE ARE, AND WHATEVER WE
37:48DO, IT'S USUALLY BUSINESS
37:50EXECUTIVES, AND IT'S ATHLETES.
37:52WE'VE NEVER LOOKED AT THE MOST
37:54DRAMATIC RETIREMENT IN THE
37:55WORLD, WHERE YOU HAVE THE
37:55BIGGEST FALL FROM POWER TO JUST
37:58BEING AN ORDINARY CIVILIAN,
37:59WHICH IS THE PRESIDENCY OF THE
38:00UNITED STATES.
38:01AND AT A TIME WHEN WE'RE WORRIED
38:03ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY, IT'S
38:04IMPORTANT TO REFLECT EVEN BEFORE
38:05GEORGE WASHINGTON, THE FOUNDING
38:07FATHERS WERE VERY WORRIED ABOUT
38:08THIS QUESTION OF WHAT TO DO WITH
38:11EX-PRESIDENTS, BECAUSE THEY
38:12HADN'T REALLY EXPERIENCED THE
38:13PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER.
38:15SO, IT IS AMUSING.
38:16ALEXANDER HAMILTON IN THE
38:17FEDERALIST PAPERS, HE ASKED THE
38:19QUESTION, DOES IT PROMOTE THE
38:20STABILITY OF THE REPUBLICAN TO
38:21HAVE HALF A DOZEN OR SO MEN WHO
38:22HAVE BEEN ELEVATED TO THE
38:24PRESIDENCY BASICALLY WANDERING
38:25AROUND US LIKE DISCONTENTED
38:27GHOSTS?
38:28AND MORE THAN 200-PLUS YEARS
38:30LATER, WE FINALLY GET AN ANSWER
38:31TO HAMILTON'S QUESTION, WHICH
38:33IS, EX-PRESIDENTS CAN EITHER BE
38:35A TREMENDOUS PARTNER TO THEIR
38:37SUCCESSOR OR THEIR MOST
38:39FORMIDABLE ADVERSARY.
38:39>> WELL, THE PERSON WHO SORT OF
38:41SETS THE TONE RIGHT OFF IS
38:44GEORGE WASHINGTON BY DOING THE
38:46PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER,
38:50STEPPING DOWN.
38:51HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT?
38:52>> THE GEORGE WASHINGTON
38:55PRECEDENT OF TWO TERMS IS ONE OF
38:56THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISIONS
39:00THAT SETS THIS, YOU KNOW, KIND
39:01OF IDEA THAT EX-PRESIDENTS ARE
39:04MEANT TO KIND OF LEAVE POWER AND
39:05STAY OUT OF POWER.
39:07WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT IT
39:09DOESN'T GET CODIFIED UNTIL FDR
39:11IS ELECTED FOUR TIMES WITH THE
39:1322nd AMENDMENT.
39:14SO, JUST BECAUSE WASHINGTON SET
39:15THE PRECEDENT DOESN'T MEAN IT
39:17WAS FORMALLY CODIFIED AS LAW.
39:19AND SO, WE KIND OF WINGED THIS
39:21FROM GEORGE WASHINGTON UNTIL IT
39:25WAS -- THE CONSTITUTION WAS
39:26AMENDED AND IT PRETTY MUCH HELD.
39:28IT'S INTERESTING, WE NOW FIND
39:29OURSELVES IN 2024 IN THE ONLY
39:32TIME OTHER THAN 1892 WHERE WE
39:35ARE LIKELY TO HAVE A REMATCH
39:37BETWEEN TWO PRESIDENTS OF THE
39:40UNITED STATES.
39:41THE ONLY OTHER TIME THAT IT
39:42HAPPENED WAS 1892 WHEN GROVER
39:45CLEVELAND CAME BACK TO CHALLENGE
39:47BENJAMIN HARRISON.
39:48SO, IT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF JUST
39:52HOW OFFSCRIPT WE'VE GONE FROM
39:53OUR POLITICAL EVOLUTION.
39:54>> IN SOME WAYS, THE PRECEDENT
39:56FOR EX-PRESIDENTS, THE MODEL WAS
39:59SET BY THOMAS JEFFERSON.
40:02VERY INTERESTING CHAPTER IN YOUR
40:03BOOK.
40:03TELL ME ABOUT WHY WHAT HE DID
40:06AFTER POWER WAS SO IMPORTANT,
40:08AND SO REFLECTIVE THE NOTION OF
40:11PRINCIPLE BEING WHAT YOU DO WHEN
40:13YOU DO A NEXT CHAPTER.
40:14>> SO, ONE CAN OF THE THINGS I
40:16ARGUE IN THE BOOK IS THAT THOMAS
40:17JEFFERSON WAS THE FIRST FORMER
40:18PRESIDENT TO MAKE SOMETHING OF
40:20HIS POST-PRESIDENTIAL YEARS.
40:20AND EACH CHAPTER LOOKS AT A
40:23DIFFERENT EX-PRESIDENT AND THE
40:26SPECIFIC MODEL THAT THEY
40:28FOLLOWED, AND WHAT I DESCRIBE
40:29THOMAS JEFFERSON AS, HE'S THE
40:32QUINTESSENTIAL SERIAL
40:33ENTREPRENEUR, ORRER IS Y'ALL
40:34FOUNDER.
40:34HE HAS THREE THINGS ETCHED ON
40:36HIS EPITAPH THAT HE AUTHORED.
40:38TWO OF WHICH HAPPENED BEFORE HE
40:39WAS PRESIDENT, INCLUDING THE
40:41DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND
40:43ONCE THAT HE ACCOMPLISHED AT 82
40:44YEARS OLD, THE FATHER AND
40:45FOUNDER OF THE UNIVERSITY OF
40:46VIRGINIA.
40:48THOMAS JEFFERSON NEVER WANTED TO
40:49BE PRESIDENT, HE TRIED TO RETIRE
40:50THREE TIMES, BUT AS A COFOUNDER
40:52OF THE REPUBLIC, HE HAD A
40:55FOUNDER'S OBLIGATION TO CONTINUE
40:56TO SERVE IN THE REPUBLIC.
40:58AND ALL THAT DID WAS MAKE HIM
40:58LOSE TIME, AND GET CLOSER TO
41:01MORTALITY.
41:02HE BELIEVED VERY STRONGLY THAT
41:03THE REPUBLIC THAT THEY HAD
41:04FOUNDED WAS IMPERFECT.
41:05AND IF YOU DIDN'T CREATE A
41:08PROPER INSTITUTION, AN ARTS AND
41:10SCIENCES INSTITUTION TO TRAIN
41:11THE NEXT GENERATION, YOU
41:12WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO PASS THE
41:14TORCH TO A NEW CADRE OF
41:18REVOLUTIONARY-MINDED PEOPLE THAT
41:18WOULD FIX AND PERFECT THE
41:19MISTAKES THAT THEY MADE IN THE
41:20CONSTITUTION.
41:21AND SO, UVA WAS MEANT TO BE THAT
41:23UNIVERSITY, AND POOR THOMAS
41:26JEFFERSON, WHEN HE OPENS THE
41:27DOORS AT 82 YEARS OLD TO THE
41:29UNIVERSITY HE HAD LITERALLY
41:31PERSONALLY ARCHITECTED, YOU
41:33KNOW, SIX MONTHS IN, YOU HAVE A
41:35GROUP OF YOUNG STUDENTS, YOU
41:36KNOW, COVERING THEIR FACES WITH
41:40MASKS, THROWING BAGS OF URINE,
41:42BEATING A PROFESSOR WITH THEIR
41:45CANE, AND ALL IT TAKES IS THOMAS
41:48JEFFERSON TO CALL A MEETING WITH
41:54JEFFERSON, MADISON, AND MONROE,
41:55AND FOR HIM TO EXUDE SUCH A
41:59STATUS WITH THESE STUDENTS, ONE
42:00BY ONE, THEY CONFESSED, AND
42:02JEFFERSON REMAINS THE ONLY
42:04EX-PRESIDENT TO CREATE AN
42:05INSTITUTION THAT'S NOW LASTED
42:06MORE THAN 200 YEARS, ALTHOUGH
42:09EVERY PRESIDENT WITH THEIR
42:10CENTER AND LIBRARY AND
42:14INSTITUTION HOPES TO DO THE SAME
42:15THING.
42:16>> YOU SAID THAT JEFFERSON'S
42:18PRINCIPLES NOW DAYS IN CURRENT
42:20LIGHT, SOMEWHAT COMPLEX.
42:22BEING SCRUTINIZED.
42:23AND YET, IN SOME WAYS, THAT'S
42:26JEFFERSONIAN TO DO THAT.
42:27>> LOOKS THIS MAY BE A
42:28CONTROVERSIAL THING TO SAY.
42:29I THINK THE VERY IDEA THAT -- I
42:32THINK JEFFERSON WOULD HAVE FOUND
42:33THE VERY IDEA THAT HIS
42:34IMPERFECTIONS AND HIS FLAWS WERE
42:37CRITICIZED BY LATER GENERATIONS
42:38AS THE NORMS EVOLVED, I THINK HE
42:42WOULD SORT OF SMIRK AT THAT,
42:44SAY, I ACCEPT THAT, AND VIEW
42:46THAT AS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT,
42:47BECAUSE THAT'S CORE TO MY
42:50PRINCIPLES, AND YES, VERY
42:53JEFFERSONIAN.
42:54HE HAD A SELF-AWARENESS OF THE
42:56IMPERFECTIONS OF HIS OWN LIFE
42:58AND WHAT HE AND HIS FELLOW
43:00FOUNDERS HAD ACTUALLY
43:01ARCHITECTED AT THE DAWN OF THE
43:03REPUBLIC, AND HE HAD A LOT OF
43:04FAITH AND HOPE THAT THE NEXT
43:05GENERATION WOULD FIX THOSE
43:07PROBLEMS.
43:07AND THIS IS WHY, YOU KNOW, WHEN
43:10HIS BELOVED UNIVERSITY OF
43:11VIRGINIA IS ENGULFED IN A
43:12STUDENT RIOT WHERE THEY'RE
43:14CHANTING "DOWN WITH UNIVERSITY
43:16PROFESSORS," IT'S SO APPALLING
43:17TO HIM.
43:18AT 82 YEARS OLD, THERE'S NOT A
43:19LOT OF TIME LEFT.
43:20AND HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT
43:22INSTITUTION WOULD SURVIVE LONG
43:23ENOUGH THAT HE COULD KIND OF GO
43:24OUT GRACEFULLY AND BE REST
43:27ASSURED THAT THE NEXT GENERATION
43:28WOULD CARRY THE TORCH FORWARD.
43:30>> CONFESS MY FAVORITE
43:33POST-PRESIDENCY, AT LEAST FROM
43:34DEEP HISTORY, IS, OF COURSE,
43:37JOHN QUINCY ADAMS.
43:39TOTALLY AMAZING WHAT HE DOES,
43:41INCLUDING, GOING BACK TO THE
43:42HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, BUT
43:43MAINLY FIGHTING FOR PARTICULAR
43:46PRINCIPLE, AND THAT SETS THE
43:47TONE FOR YOUR BOOK, WHICH IS
43:49THAT YOUR NEXT CHAPTER HAS TO BE
43:51BASED ON PRINCIPLE.
43:52EXPLAIN WHAT JOHN QUINCY ADAMS
43:55DID AND WHY HE'S SO IMPORTANT.
43:56>> OUT OF THE SEVEN PRESIDENTS
43:58THAT I WROTE ABOUT IN "LIFE
44:00AFTER POWER," THE REASON THEY
44:02FOUND A GREATER SENSE OF PURPOSE
44:04AFTER THE WHITE HOUSE IS THEY
44:05HAD A DOGMATIC SENSE OF WHAT
44:07THEY WERE PRINCIPLED ABOUT AND
44:09THEY DOUBLED DOWN ABOUT THAT IN
44:11THE POST-PRESIDENCY, AND PART OF
44:12WHAT MADE THEM SUCCESSFUL IN THE
44:14CASE OF JOHN QUINCY ADAMS, I
44:15CALL THAT CHAPTER THE SECOND
44:17ACT, BECAUSE JOHN QUINCY ADAMS
44:19PRESIDENCY IS JUST ONE TERM, WAS
44:20AN INTERMISSION BETWEEN TWO OF
44:21THE GREATEST ACTS IN AMERICAN
44:23HISTORY.
44:24THE FIRST ONE, ARCHITECTED FOR
44:26HIM TOP DOWN AND HANDED TO HIM
44:27BY HIS FAMOUS PARENTS THAT SET
44:29HIM ON A PATH TO BEING
44:31PRESIDENT.
44:31AND THE SECOND ACT WAS ONE THAT
44:34HE INADVERTENTLY FOUND, WHICH
44:36WAS, HE WENT ON TO SERVE NINE
44:38TERMS IN THE HOUSE OF
44:40REPRESENTATIVES, WHERE IN A MUCH
44:41LOWER STATION, HE FOUND A MUCH
44:42HIGHER CAUSE, AND BECAME THE MAN
44:44WHO MAINSTREAMED WHAT IN THE
44:471830s AND 1840s WAS A FRINGE
44:52ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT.
44:54HE'S APPOINTED BY GEORGE
44:55WASHINGTON TO SERVE IN HIS
44:56ADMINISTRATION, AND HE DIES IN
44:581848 IN HIS NINTH TERM IN THE
45:00HOUSE, SERVING ALONGSIDE ABRAHAM
45:03LINCOLN.
45:04SO, HE'S THIS LIVING BRIDGE
45:05BETWEEN MULTIPLE GENERATIONS,
45:06AND HE GOES BACK TO THE HOUSE OF
45:08REPRESENTATIVES BECAUSE HE'S
45:09ALREADY SERVED EVERY OTHER
45:10PUBLIC POSITION, INCLUDING IN
45:11THE SENATE, SO, HE DOESN'T KNOW
45:13WHAT ELSE TO DO BESIDES SERVE.
45:14SO, HE DOES WHAT ANY CONGRESSMAN
45:15DOES, YOU KNOW, IN THE EARLY
45:181830s, WHICH IS, YOU JUST START
45:20READING PETITIONS.
45:21AND SOME OF THOSE PETITIONS WERE
45:23FROM ABOLITIONISTS.
45:24WHEN HE SAW THE REACTION IN
45:26CONGRESS, HE THOUGHT IT AN
45:28AFFRONT TO THE RIGHT TO
45:30PETITION.
45:31THIS WAS SOMETHING HE WAS SO
45:34PASSIONATE ABOUT, THE RIGHT TO
45:35FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
45:36THE ANGRIER THE SLAVEOCRACY, THE
45:40MORE PETITIONS HE PRESENTED.
45:43HE HAD NOT BEEN AN ABOLITIONIST,
45:45AND OVER TIME, HE JUST SORT OF
45:47WAKES UP ONE DAY, AND FINDS
45:49HIMSELF THE LEADER OF THIS
45:50MOVEMENT, AND I BELIEVE THAT THE
45:51ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT WAS
45:54ACCELERATED A FULL DECADE, JUST
45:57IN TIME FOR ABRAHAM LINCOLN TO
45:58JOIN THE HOUSE, BECAUSE OF JOHN
46:00QUINCY ADAMS.
46:01>> WE SOMETIMES THINK IT'S ALL
46:02ABOUT DAD.
46:04DO YOU THINK IT CAME IN THE FACT
46:05THAT HIS FATHER, JOHN ADAMS, THE
46:06SECOND PRESIDENT, HAD THAT AS
46:08PART OF HIS CORE?
46:10>> NO, I MEAN, I THINK WHAT'S
46:12INTERESTING, JOHN QUINCY ADAMS
46:13TALKS VERY LITTLE ABOUT SLAVERY
46:16BEFORE HE GOES INTO THE HOUSE.
46:17AND SOME OF THAT IS A FUNCTION
46:19IN BETWEEN THE MISSOURI
46:21COMPROMISE, AND THE TIME THAT
46:22JOHN QUINCY ADAMS GOES INTO THE
46:23HOUSE IN THE EARLY 1830s, IT'S
46:26JUST NOT A HOTLY DEBATED TOPIC,
46:28WHICH, AGAIN, IS WHY THE
46:30ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT AROUND
46:31THAT TIME IS MORE FRINGY AND
46:33SEEN AS MORE RADICAL.
46:35AND SO, HE -- WE FOUND SLAVERY
46:38ABHORRENT, BUT IT WAS NOT A
46:41DOMINANT ISSUE.
46:42SO, THIS IS WHAT I FIND SO
46:44PRESCRIPTIVE ABOUT JOHN QUINCY
46:46ADAMS.
46:46WE ALWAYS ASSUME FOR THAT GREAT
46:47SECOND ACT, YOU HAVE TO KNOW
46:49EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO.
46:51THOMAS JEFFERSON KNEW HE WANTED
46:52TO GO FOUND A GREAT UNIVERSITY.
46:53IT WAS THE THIRD VOLUME IN HIS
46:55LIFE TRILOGY.
46:56JOHN QUINCY ADAMS KNEW WHAT HE
46:58WAS PRINCIPLED ABOUT, AND HE
47:00SUBMITTED HIMSELF TO THOSE
47:01PRINCIPLES, AND THE CAUSE FOUND
47:03HIM, RATHER THAN HIM FINDING THE
47:03CAUSE.
47:04>> ONE OF THE POST-PRESIDENCIES
47:08I HAVE TROUBLE GETTING MY HEAD
47:09AROUND AND ASSESSING, OF COURSE,
47:11IS HERBERT HOOVER.
47:14I DIDN'T KNOW THIS, I READ IN
47:15HIS BOOK ABOUT HOW IN 1938, HE
47:18GOES AND VISITS HITLER IN
47:22GERMANY.
47:22YET, HE DOES OTHER THINGS THAT
47:24ARE VERY USEFUL.
47:26HOW DID HE END UP BECOMING SO
47:28MUCH, I GUESS, MORE CONSERVATIVE
47:30AFTER HE LEAVES OFFICE, AND EVEN
47:34SETTING THE GROUND FOR
47:35APPEASEMENT, BEFORE WORLD WAR
47:37II?
47:39>> WELL, LOOK, SOME OF IT IS, HE
47:41WAS A QUAKER AT HEART, SO, HE
47:42SORT OF LOATHED THE IDEA OF WAR.
47:44YOU KNOW, THE BOOK TELLS THE
47:45STORY OF HERBERT HOOVER, A MAN
47:49WHO LIVED TO BE 90 YEARS OLD AND
47:51BASICALLY DEFINED BY 3 1/2 YEARS
47:53OF HIS LIFE BECAUSE OF THE GREAT
47:54DEPRESSION.
47:55PEOPLE FORGET THAT HERBERT
47:55HOOVER, BEFORE HE BECAME
47:58PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,
47:59WAS KNOWN AS THE GREAT
48:01HUMANITARIAN.
48:01HE WAS THE MAN WHO FED THE WORLD
48:02AFTER WORLD WAR I, HE WAS THE
48:05MAN THAT LED RELIEF EFFORTS
48:07AFTER THE GREAT MISSISSIPPI
48:08FLOOD OF 1927, WHICH AFFECTED
48:09MOST OF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN
48:11POPULATIONS.
48:11HE WAS AN ORPHAN, WHO BECAME A
48:14SELF-MADE MILLIONAIRE.
48:15HE WAS KNOWN AS A GREAT BUSINESS
48:17EXECUTIVE.
48:18AND HE WALTZES INTO THE WHITE
48:20HOUSE IN 1928 WITH A SWEEPING
48:23ELECTORAL VICTORY, AND HE HAD
48:25BEEN COURTED BY DEMOCRATS AND
48:27REPUBLICANS ALIKE, SO, HE WAS
48:28KIND OF A BIPARTISAN FIGURE.
48:30AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE GREAT
48:32DEPRESSION HAPPENS AND HE LOSES
48:33HIS BID FOR RE-ELECTION IN 1932,
48:35HE LOSES ALL THAT WHICH HE HAD
48:37GAINED IN HIS LIFE.
48:39AND, YOU KNOW, FEELS NO REGRET
48:40OVER HIS POLICIES OVER THE GREAT
48:44DEPRESSION, YOU KNOW, HE
48:45BELIEVES THAT FDR IS ESSENTIALLY
48:48MANIPULATED AND DUPED, YOU KNOW,
48:49THE COUNTRY, INTO THIS IDEA OF
48:52COLLECTIVISM, AND IT BREAKS THE
48:55ENTREPRENEURIAL SPIRIT.
48:56SO, HE'S IN THIS SELF-IMPOSED
48:58POLITICAL EXILE, YOU KNOW,
48:59DURING THIS SORT OF 12 YEARS OF
49:02FDR'S PRESIDENCY, AND HE TRIES
49:03TO BE A GREAT HUMANITARIAN
49:06AGAIN, GO TO EUROPE TO SORT OF
49:07STOP, YOU KNOW, THE TIDE OF WAR,
49:09HE DOESN'T INTEND TO MEET
49:11HITLER, BUT IT -- EUROPE IS THE
49:12ONE PLACE, YOU KNOW, IN THE
49:14ENTIRE WORLD, WHERE HE GOES AND
49:15STREETS ARE NAMED AFTER HIM, AND
49:17HE'S POPULAR, BECAUSE HE FED
49:17THEM AFTER STARVATION, YOU KNOW,
49:21FOLLOWING WORLD WAR I.
49:21SO, HE GOES TO GERMANY TO MEET
49:23WITH, YOU KNOW, NGOs AND THE
49:25LIKE AND HE GETS SUMMONED BY
49:28HITLER.
49:28AND BECOMES THE ONLY PRESIDENT
49:29AND THE ONLY AMERICAN OTHER THAN
49:31THE AMBASSADOR THAT IS THERE
49:32WITH HIM, TO MEET ADOLF HITLER
49:34AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.
49:35AND HE COMES BACK TO THE U.S.
49:37AND, YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT
49:38DOESN'T WANT TO READ OUT, HE
49:40DOESN'T BRIEF ANYBODY, WAS NEVER
49:43SUMMONED TO WASHINGTON, AND JUST
49:44SINGLE DIGIT DAYS LATER, ANSWER
49:50SLUSH HAPPENS.
49:53WHEN HARRY TRUMAN BECOMES
49:58PRESIDENT, THERE WAS ONLY ONE
50:00MAN IN THE WORLD, AS THEY ARE
50:01STARING THE END OF WORLD WAR II
50:03IN THE FACE, WHO KNEW WHAT WAS
50:06LIKE TO BE PRESIDENT, KNEW HOW
50:09TO FEED THE WORLD, SO, HE
50:11RESURRECTS HERBERT HOOVER.
50:12>> JIMMY CARTER, I THINK, HAS
50:14HAD THE LONGEST POST-PRESIDENCY,
50:15AND CERTAINLY HE'S HELPED
50:18REDEFINE THE IDEA OF SERVICE IN
50:21A POST-PRESIDENCY.
50:22WHAT LESSONS DID YOU DRAW FROM
50:23HIM?
50:24>> SO, IF HERBERT HOOVER WAS A
50:26STORY OF RECOVERY, AND GETTING
50:30BACK THE SORT OF -- THE PLATFORM
50:33THAT YOU ONCE HAD, JIMMY CARTER
50:35WAS A DIFFERENT VERSION OF THAT,
50:36BECAUSE HE, TOO, LEFT OFFICE IN
50:401981 DEEPLY UNPOPULAR.
50:41HE MADE A DECISION THAT HERBERT
50:43HOOVER DID NOT MAKE, WHICH WAS,
50:44YOU KNOW, THE MOMENT HE GOT OUT
50:46OF OFFICE, HE KNEW HE WASN'T
50:47GOING TO MAKE ANOTHER RUN AT THE
50:49PRESIDENCY, AND SO, AS HE BEGAN
50:51WHAT HE DESCRIBED AS HIS
50:53INVOLUNTARY RETIREMENT, YOU
50:54KNOW, HE WAS A MAN COMMANDED BY
50:56DEEP FAITH, INCREDIBLY
50:57PRINCIPLED ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT
50:58MY FAITH COMMANDS ME TO DO
51:00WHATEVER I CAN FOR AS LONG AS I
51:04CAN, WHENEVERI CAN.
51:06UNSHACKLED FROM THE PRESIDENCY,
51:07HE DECIDED TO CREATE THE FORMER
51:08PRESIDENCY, AND HE BASICALLY
51:10BUILT A POST-PRESIDENTIAL
51:11ADMINISTRATION THAT UNLIKE HIS
51:12PRESIDENCY WOULD NEVER END.
51:14AND HE WAS THE FIRST FORMER
51:16PRESIDENT TO BUILD
51:18INFRASTRUCTURE AROUND THIS IDEA
51:19OF BEING A FORMER AND MAKE IT A
51:19PLATFORM IN AND OF ITSELF, AND
51:22HE BECOMES BOTH A GREAT PARTNER
51:25TO HIS SUCCESSORS AND A
51:26TREMENDOUS NUISANCE TO HIS
51:28SUCCESSORS.
51:29SO, THE TWO EXAMPLES OF A
51:31NUISANCE ARE WHEN GEORGE H.W.
51:34BUSH IS GETTING READY TO LAUNCH
51:37OPERATION DESERT STORM, JIMMY
51:38CARTER SECRETLY WRITES TO
51:40PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE
51:41SECURITY COUNCIL, YOU KNOW,
51:43TRYING TO ADVOCATE THEM GOING
51:44AGAINST THE U.S. POSITION.
51:46THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE
51:46MOST SUCCESSFUL, YOU KNOW, U.N.
51:50SECURITY COUNCIL MOMENTS OF
51:53COLLECTIVE ACTION, NOT REALLY
51:53SEEN BEFORE OR AFTER, AND CARTER
51:57IS SECRETLY OPPOSING IT.
52:00OR IN 1994, WHEN BILL CLINTON
52:02SENDS JIMMY CARTER TO PYONGYANG
52:05TO MEET WITH THE LEADER THERE,
52:06HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT CARTER IS
52:07CAPABLE OF, AND SO, HE TELLS
52:09HIM, YOU'RE A MESSENGER.
52:11YOU'RE NOT AUTHORIZED TO MAKE
52:13POLICY.
52:13AND BILL CLINTON TURNS ON CNN
52:14AND FINDS JIMMY CARTER
52:17ANNOUNCING THAT HE'S NEGOTIATED
52:18A NUCLEAR BREAKTHROUGH ON
52:21NON-PROLIFERATION WITH THE NORTH
52:23KOREANS.
52:23SO, LOOK, JIMMY CARTER, YOU
52:25KNOW, REPRESENTS THAT ALEXANDER
52:26HAMILTON, YOU KNOW, THE ANSWER
52:29TO HAMILTON'S QUESTION OF BEING
52:31A FORMIDABLE ADVERSARY OR
52:34NUISANCE TO YOUR SUCCESSOR, OR
52:35BEING A PARTNER, AND AT 42-PLUS
52:38YEARS, HE'S HAD THE LONGEST
52:39ACTIVE POST-PRESIDENCY, AND I
52:41THINK IT'S ENDED UP BEING
52:43INSTRUCTIVE FOR EVERY SUCCESSIVE
52:45PRESIDENT THAT'S FOLLOWED.
52:47>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LESSONS
52:48AND THE POST-PRESIDENCIES, WHAT
52:50DO YOU -- WHAT WOULD YOU HOPE
52:52THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD TAKE
52:54FROM THAT?
52:55WHAT LESSONS SHOULD HE LEARN
52:56FROM YOUR BOOK?
52:57>> LOOK, THE NUMBER ONE LESSON
52:58FROM THE BOOK IS, ANYBODY MAKING
53:01A TRANSITION, WHETHER IT'S TO
53:03RETIREMENT OR A MICROTRANSITION
53:04IN YOUR LIFE, THE SOONER YOU
53:06FIGURE OUT WHAT YOUR CORE
53:07PRINCIPLES ARE, AND LET THOSE
53:09PRINCIPLES GUIDE YOU, THE SOONER
53:12YOU'RE ABLE TO EXTRICATE
53:14YOURSELF FROM EGO AND VANITY AND
53:16LUST FOR POWER.
53:17AND SO, I THINK IT'S -- IF
53:19YOU'RE LOOKING AT SORT OF
53:21DANGEROUS POWER OR, YOU KNOW,
53:24DISCONTENTED GHOSTS WANDERING
53:26AROUND US, THOSE THAT FEEL LIKE
53:28THEY LACK PRINCIPLES, THOSE THAT
53:30FEEL LIKE THEY'RE MEANDERING
53:33WITHOUT PRINCIPLE, ARE
53:35OFTENTIMES THE MOST DANGEROUS
53:36PEOPLE TO HAVE AGGREGATED POWER.
53:40AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT
53:42WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS, YOU
53:44KNOW, IN ADDITION TO THIS BEING
53:45THE ONLY TIME SINCE 1892 WHERE
53:47YOU HAVE A PRESIDENTIAL REMATCH,
53:49YOU ALSO HAVE THE TWO OLDEST
53:50CANDIDATES IN HISTORY, ECLIPSED
53:52ONLY BY THE LAST TIME THESE TWO
53:53SAME CANDIDATES RAN AGAINST EACH
53:55OTHER FOUR YEARS PRIOR.
53:57AND YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF THE
53:58QUESTION, PERHAPS WE'RE IN THIS
53:59SITUATION THAT WE'RE IN, WHERE
54:02YOU HAVE THE TWO OLDEST
54:04CANDIDATES, THEY'RE LESS POPULAR
54:05THAN THEY WERE FOUR YEARS AGO,
54:08IT'S AN ONLY ONCE REPEATED
54:10REMATCH.
54:11MAYBE WE'RE IN THIS SITUATION
54:12BECAUSE YOU HAVE TWO PRESIDENTS
54:13THAT DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP
54:15POWER.
54:15>> JARED COHEN, THANK YOU SO
54:16MUCH FOR JOINING US.
54:16>> THANK YOU, WALTER.
54:19>>> AND FINALLY, THIS WEEKEND,
54:21WE LEARNED THAT A TRANSFORMATIVE
54:22FIGURE IN CLASSICAL MUSIC HAS
54:23DIED.
54:27THE CONDUCTOR OF THE BOSTON
54:31SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA FOR NEARLY
54:32THREE DECADES.
54:33HE GALVANIZED THE MUSICAL WORLD
54:41WITH HIS FASHION.
54:43HE PERSONIFIED THE POWER OF
54:45MUSIC TO BUILT A BRIDGE BETWEEN
54:47ASIAN AND WESTERN MUSIC AND
54:49PERFORMERS.
54:49AND HELPED EASE RELATION BETWEEN
54:51WASHINGTON AND BEIJING WHEN HE
54:53LED A TOUR OF CHINA.
54:54I GOT TO SEE HIM IN ACTION
54:57MYSELF IN EUROPE IN THE EARLY
54:58'70s, HIS BRILLIANCE AND HIS
55:00DYNAMIC ENERGY LEFT A DEEP
55:04IMPRESSION.
55:05IN 2015, HE WAS AWARDED A
55:06KENNEDY CENTER HONOR BY
55:08PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.
55:09IT WAS HIS LAST TRIP TO THE
55:09UNITED STATES.
55:11>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR
55:12PROGRAM TONIGHT.
55:13IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:14COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY
55:14NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR
55:17NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:19THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND
55:20GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.