Amanpour & Co. - February 27, 2024
President Joe Biden met with top Congressional leaders today, pressing them to pass his aid package for Ukraine and Israel. The failure of Congress to act is hurting Ukraine and undermining America on the global stage. Politico National Security Reporter Alexander Ward takes a look at how Biden’s foreign policy team copes with all of these challenges in his new book, “The Internationalists.”
Transcript
00:00♪♪
00:03>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
00:05TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
00:07HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:07>> WE'RE CLOSE.
00:08WE'RE CLOSE.
00:09IT'S NOT DONE YET.
00:11>> BENJAMIN NETANYAHU POURS COLD
00:13WATER ALL OVER PRESIDENT BIDEN'S
00:14HOPES FOR A DEAL AS GAZA FACES
00:17FAMINE AND COMPLETE CHAOS.
00:18THE HEAD OF NORWAY'S MAIN
00:21HUMANITARIAN AGENCY JAN EGELAND
00:22JOINS ME FROM INSIDE THE
00:25WAR-RAVAGED ENCLAVE.
00:26>>> THEN --
00:27>> HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?
00:29>> TWO YEARS ON, WE REMEMBER THE
00:31ATROCITIES OF BUCHA.
00:32MY REPORT FROM THERE ABOUT THE
00:34FACE OF RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE.
00:36>>> PLUS --
00:37>> WE'VE GOT FIVE BODIES FROZEN
00:40INTO A GIANT BLOCK OF FLESH.
00:41>> A MURDER MYSTERY SET IN
00:43DARKNESS AND ICE.
00:46MY CONVERSATION WITH TRUE
00:46DETECTIVE STARS JODIE FOSTER AND
00:49KALI REIS.
00:50>>> ALSO AHEAD --
00:51>> NOTHING GETS JOE BIDEN MORE
00:52ANIMATED THAN BEING SEEN AS THE
00:55PROTECTOR OF DEMOCRACY
00:56WORLDWIDE.
00:56>> CAN BIDEN RESTORE AMERICA'S
00:58FOREIGN POLICY?
01:00POLITICO'S NATIONAL SECURITY
01:01REPORTER TELLS WALTER ISAACSON
01:03ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK "THE
01:04INTERNATIONALISTS."
01:10♪♪
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02:01THANK YOU.
02:06>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
02:07EVERYONE.
02:08I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN
02:09LONDON.
02:10NOW, THERE APPEAR TO BE MAJOR
02:13DISAGREEMENTS ABOUT THE
02:13POSSIBILITY OF AN AGREEMENT FOR
02:14A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND
02:17HAMAS.
02:17AFTER WEEKS OF NEGOTIATIONS,
02:19PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS A DEAL TO
02:21RELEASE ISRAELI HOSTAGES COULD
02:22BE MADE BY NEXT MONDAY, WHICH
02:24WOULD ALSO MEAN A HUMANITARIAN
02:27PAUSE FOR GAZA.
02:27AND SPEAKING TO TALK SHOW HOST
02:29SETH MEYERS, HE WAS OPTIMISTIC
02:32FOR FUTURE DIPLOMACY.
02:33>> THERE'S A PROCESS UNDER WAY
02:35THAT I THINK IF WE GET THAT --
02:37THAT TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, WE'RE
02:39GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOVE IN A
02:40DIRECTION WHERE WE CAN CHANGE
02:41THE DYNAMIC AND NOT HAVE A
02:47TWO-STATE SOLUTION IMMEDIATELY,
02:47BUT A PROCESS TO GET TO A
02:50TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
02:50>> BUT THE ISRAELI PRIME
02:52MINISTER'S OFFICE DASHED ANY
02:54HOPES FOR AN EARLY CEASE-FIRE,
02:55AND KEY MEDIATOR QATAR SAYS
02:58DISAGREEMENTS CONTINUE OVER,
03:00QUOTE, NUMBERS, RATIOS, AND
03:02TROOP MOVEMENTS, PRESUMABLY
03:04REFERRING TO THE NUMBER OF
03:05HOSTAGES RELEASED FOR
03:06PALESTINIAN PRISONERS AND THE
03:08WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS
03:09FROM GAZA.
03:10THE DEATH TOLL THERE IS FAST
03:12APPROACHING 30,000, AND TODAY
03:14FRANCE AND SEVERAL MIDDLE EAST
03:16NATIONS AIR DROPPED AID INTO THE
03:18TERRITORY, BUT THE U.N. WARNS OF
03:20A LOOMING FAMINE.
03:22THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM SAID IT'S
03:26SUSPENDED ITS AID DELIVERIES
03:27AMID, QUOTE, A COLLAPSE OF CIVIL
03:29ORDER.
03:30JAN EGELAND, WHO IS HEAD OF THE
03:32NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL, A
03:33MAJOR HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATION,
03:34IS IN GAZA NOW FOR THE FIRST
03:36TIME SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th HAMAS
03:39SLAUGHTER OF ISRAELIS THAT HAS
03:40LED TO THIS FIERCE
03:43COUNTEROFFENSIVE.
03:43AND HE JOINED ME FROM RAFAH.
03:46>> JAN EGELAND, WELCOME TO THE
03:48PROGRAM FROM RAFAH.
03:49>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
03:50>> WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE THERE
03:52AND SEE IT FOR THE FIRST TIME?
03:55WE'VE HEARD A LOT.
03:56WE'VE SEEN PICTURES.
03:57WE HEAR REPORTS FROM INSIDE.
03:59WHAT ARE YOU SEEING WITH YOUR
04:00OWN EYES?
04:02>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, YOU HAVE TO
04:04COME TO GAZA TO UNDERSTAND THE
04:10DEVASTATION, THE DESTITUTION,
04:11AND THE DESPERATION OF THE
04:13PEOPLE HERE.
04:14I HAVE NEVER IN MY MANY, MANY
04:16YEARS AS AN AID WORKER SEEN A
04:19PLACE THAT HAS BEEN SO BOMBARDED
04:23FOR SUCH A LONG TIME WITH SUCH A
04:27TRAPPED POPULATION WITHOUT ANY
04:29ESCAPE.
04:29SO PEOPLE ARE TRAUMATIZED BEYOND
04:33BELIEF.
04:33THEY LIVE UNDER THE MOST
04:36HORRIFIC CONDITIONS.
04:37I WAS IN A SCHOOL TODAY WITH 50
04:41PEOPLE SLEEPING IN A SMALL
04:45CLASSROOM, YOU KNOW, 250, 200
04:49PEOPLE SHARING ONE LATRINE, AND
04:52NO REAL WATER, FOOD.
04:57WE'RE TRYING TO DO ALL WE CAN AS
04:59THE NORWEGIAN RESCUE COUNCIL,
05:01BUT WE'RE REALLY, REALLY
05:04OVERSTRETCHED IN THIS OCEAN OF
05:05NEEDS.
05:06>> JAN EGELAND, YOU KNOW,
05:08FINALLY THE INTERNATIONAL
05:10COMMUNITY HAS STARTED TO AIR
05:11DROP SOME AID.
05:12BUT WHAT WE SAW WAS THAT SOME OF
05:15IT DROPPED INTO THE SEA, AND THE
05:18PICTURES ARE REALLY ONES OF, YOU
05:20KNOW, I MEAN TOTAL JUST PANIC.
05:26PEOPLE ARE SCAVENGING.
05:28PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER.
05:29PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO GET THE
05:31PLASTIC -- I GUESS THEY'RE
05:32MILITARY RATIONS.
05:33CAN THERE BE NO BETTER WAY OF
05:35DELIVERING AID EVEN IN THE MIDST
05:37OF A WAR?
05:38>> THERE CAN BE A MUCH BETTER
05:40WAY REALLY, AND IT'S UP TO
05:44ISRAEL WITH THE UNITED STATES
05:47AND EGYPT TO FIX IT.
05:49OF COURSE AIR DROPS IS SOMETHING
05:51OF A VERY LAST RESORT.
05:53YOU DO THAT TO BESIEGED AREAS AS
05:56WE DID IN SYRIA WHEN THE ISLAMIC
06:00STATE WAS BESIEGING IT AND SO
06:03ON.
06:04JORDAN IS DOING SOME AIR DROPS.
06:05IT'S VERY COSTLY.
06:06IT'S VERY LIMITED AND VERY HARD
06:12TO DO.
06:13THE SOLUTION IS TO GET THE RAFAH
06:18CROSSING AND CA RIM SHALOM TO
06:23WORK TO ACCORDING TO ITS PURPOSE
06:24AND ACCORDING TO ITS CAPACITY.
06:25I COULD SEE MANY HUNDREDS OF
06:28TRUCKS LINED UP AT THE RAFAH
06:30CROSSING WHEN I CAME TODAY.
06:33IN KEREM SHALOM, IT'S BEEN DAYS
06:35WITH ONLY A HANDFUL OF TRUCKS
06:37EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE A MUCH
06:39BIGGER CAPACITY FROM THE ISRAELI
06:41SIDE.
06:42BUT THERE THEY LET EXTREMISTS,
06:46EXTREMISTS BLOCK THE AID TO THE
06:48CHILDREN AND WOMEN, THE INNOCENT
06:51ON THIS SIDE.
06:51>> YOU KNOW, AS PEOPLE WHO ARE
06:54SAYING HOW CAN WE SEND AID INTO
06:56THE PEOPLE WHO KILLED OUR WOMEN
06:58AND CHILDREN AND KIDNAPPED OUR
07:00PEOPLE, SO THE POLITICS IS EVEN
07:02PLAYING OUT AND THE TRAUMA ON
07:04THE BORDER THERE.
07:05BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU HOW YOU
07:09REACT TO, LET'S JUST SAY,
07:11PALESTINIANS WHO TALK TO REUTERS
07:12SAID ABOUT THE AIR DROPS, WE
07:14CAME, THROWING OURSELVES TOWARD
07:16DEATH TO GET SOME FLOUR.
07:18WE CAN'T FIND ANYTHING.
07:19HAVE MERCY ON US.
07:20ANOTHER SAID, OUR LIFE HAS
07:22BECOME HELL.
07:23AND WE KNOW, BECAUSE A CNN
07:26INVESTIGATION FOUND THAT ISRAEL
07:27ACTUALLY FIRED ON A U.N. CONVOY
07:30CARRYING FOOD SUPPLIES EARLIER
07:31THIS MONTH, FEBRUARY 5th.
07:35>> YES.
07:37YES.
07:38AND ALSO, I MEAN, IT'S BEYOND
07:41BELIEF THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE
07:43MOURNING, OF COURSE, THE WORST
07:45MASSACRE IN THE HISTORY OF
07:47ISRAEL ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER
07:50WOULD BELIEVE THAT TAKING AWAY
07:53FOOD FROM CHILDREN AND WOMEN,
07:55COMPLETELY INNOCENT, HAD NOTHING
07:56TO DO WITH THE 7th OF OCTOBER,
07:59COULD IN ANY WAY HELP THE POOR
08:03HOSTAGES HERE.
08:03THE HAMAS MILITANTS HAVE FOOD,
08:07AND THEY ARE IN TUNNELS.
08:10THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE
08:13PEOPLE THAT WE AID.
08:16THE CHAOS, YES, AROUND THE AID
08:20LINE IS BECOMING WORSE AND WORSE
08:22BECAUSE THERE'S SO LITTLE AID
08:24COMING IN.
08:29TODAY I'M PRETTY SHAKEN ACTUALLY
08:29FROM WHAT I SAW.
08:31THE MINUTE WE CROSSED THE BORDER
08:32FROM, YOU KNOW, ORDERLY -- YOU
08:40SEE THE AID TRUCKS GOING FULL
08:41SPEED DOWN THE ROAD, BEING
08:44CHASED BY GANGS OF YOUTH WHO
08:47JUMP THE TRUCKS AND, BEFORE OUR
08:50EYES, LOOT MATTRESSES, BLANKETS,
08:55FOOD, ET CETERA, TO THE
09:00DESPERATE PEOPLE OUTSIDE TO WANT
09:02TO GET SOME AID REALLY.
09:04>> JAN, IS THIS ANARCHY?
09:06IS THIS STEALING, OR IS THIS AN
09:10ATTEMPT TO DISTRIBUTE, YOU KNOW,
09:12IN AS CRAZY A WAY AS YOU
09:14DESCRIBE, TO DISTRIBUTE THIS
09:15AID?
09:15>> I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY
09:21SELF-SERVICE BY THOSE STRONGEST
09:23WHO HAVE RECEIVED NO AID.
09:24>> RIGHT.
09:25>> AND WHO HAVE GRANDMOTHERS,
09:28CHILDREN, NEPHEWS WHO ARE
09:29STARVING.
09:30>> MM-HMM.
09:33>> PEOPLE ARE NOT LOOTING EACH
09:37OTHER.
09:37THEY LOOT WHAT THEY SEE AS AN
09:41INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY COMING
09:43WITH FAR TOO LITTLE TO THEM.
09:44SO THEN THEY TAKE WHAT THEY CAN
09:49GET.
09:49WE HAVE A SPECIAL WAY OF GOING
09:53IN WITH NRC.
09:55WE HAVE NONE OF OUR TRUCKS
09:58LOOTED YET, AND WE DO ORDERLY
10:01DISTRIBUTIONS WITH LOCAL
10:02ORGANIZATIONS WHO HAVE TO USE
10:04THEIR OPEN TRUCKS IN A SITUATION
10:07OF DESPERATION.
10:08AND BY THE WAY, THE POLICE,
10:11WHICH WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE SOME
10:14ORDER IN THIS, WAS BOMBED
10:18REPEATEDLY ISRAEL.
10:20THE BLUE UNIFORMED POLICE.
10:22SO THEY ARE GONE NOW.
10:24THEY ARE IN CIVILIAN CLOTHING,
10:26TRYING TO SHOOT IN THE AIR.
10:28NO.
10:28>> LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE
10:32YOU'RE IN RAFAH SPECIFICALLY.
10:34YOU'VE PROBABLY HAD SOME ACCESS
10:36TOWARDS KHAN YOUNIS.
10:37BUT WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
10:39VERY CONCERNED ABOUT RIGHT NOW,
10:40INCLUDING THE RESIDENTS WHO WE
10:42CAN MANAGE TO HEAR FROM, ARE IN
10:46THE NORTH.
10:46THERE'S A PICTURE WE'RE GOING TO
10:47PLAY.
10:47IT'S A MOTHER WHO SAYS THERE'S
10:49NO MORE MILK IN THE ENCLAVE OR
10:50AT LEAST UP THERE.
10:52SO SHE'S WRAPPING A DATE IN A
10:54GAUZE AND LET HER BABY BOY SUCK
10:56IN IT AS IF TO SUCK ALL THE
10:58JUICE OUT OF THIS DATE.
10:59>> YEAH.
11:00>> WE HAVE HEARD THAT THERE ARE
11:02STORIES OF YOUNG CHILDREN SAYING
11:03THAT THEY WOULD RATHER DIE.
11:05WE'VE HEARD ADULTS SAY THEY ARE
11:08GOING TO -- THEY'RE PREPARING TO
11:09DIE.
11:10THEY THINK THEY WILL ALL DIE.
11:12CAN YOU GET TO THE NORTH WHERE
11:14WE UNDERSTAND THERE IS A FAMINE
11:15RISING THERE?
11:16WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE
11:17NORTH?
11:17WILL YOU GO TO THE NORTH?
11:20>> I'M NOT ABLE MYSELF NOW TO GO
11:24TO THE NORTH.
11:26NRC HAS EIGHT AID WORKERS IN THE
11:29NORTH, AND THEY ARE, THEMSELVES,
11:32STARVING.
11:33WE GOT A LITTLE BIT OF FOOD TO
11:35OUR AID WORKERS THE OTHER DAY.
11:39BUT THE CONVOYS HAVE REALLY BEEN
11:42THOROUGHLY LOOTED FROM THE
11:46DESPERATION AND LAWLESSNESS IN
11:48THIS BOMBARDED NORTH.
11:49SO THERE IS VERY LITTLE AID.
11:51THERE IS VERY LITTLE SUPPLIES
11:58THAT START.
11:59FAMINE IS BREAKING OUT THERE.
12:01THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE
12:02IT, WHICH SHOWS THAT THE
12:07CROSSING -- ISRAEL COULD FIX
12:09THIS.
12:09THEY ARE THE OCCUPYING POWER.
12:11THEY HAVE THE OVERWHELMING
12:12MILITARY SUPERIORITY.
12:14THEY COULD HAVE CONVOYS GOING
12:16OVER CARNEY CROSSING WHICH IS IN
12:19THE MIDDLE AREA FROM WHERE YOU
12:20CAN EASILY REACH THE NORTH.
12:22IT'S VERY HARD FROM HERE SOUTH
12:23IN RAFAH AND KEREM SHALOM AREA.
12:28>> WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ARE
12:30NOT?
12:30WHY DO YOU THINK A BASIC FOOD
12:34AND WATER AND MEDICINE SUPPLIES
12:36ARE NOT HAPPENING?
12:37>> BECAUSE OF WHAT IS A
12:43MISCONCEPTION, A MILITARY
12:45EXPEDIENCY.
12:46LET'S JUST SMASH THE PLACE AND
12:49THEREBY REACH VERY FAST A
12:50MILITARY OBJECTIVE.
12:52THEY'RE NOT REACHING -- HAVEN'T
12:54REACHED THE MILITARY OBJECTIVE
12:55AFTER ALL OF THESE MONTHS.
12:59SO I HOPE TO SEE SOME SANITY AND
13:03HUMANITY ON THE ISRAELI SIDE.
13:05THIS IS NOT THE ISRAEL I KNOW
13:08FROM 40 YEARS OF COOPERATION,
13:10INCLUDING THROUGH THE OSLO
13:12AGREEMENT.
13:13THEN THERE WAS ALWAYS
13:16POSSIBILITIES TO REASON AND TO
13:18GET AID TO PALESTINIANS IN NEED.
13:22I HOPE TO SEE DAYS WHERE THIS
13:26COMES BACK.
13:27>> SO JAN EGELAND, YOU OBVIOUSLY
13:29HAVE TO HAVE ISRAELI
13:31COORDINATION, PERMISSION,
13:32WHATEVER THE WORD IS TO GET IN
13:34EVEN FROM RAFAH, EVEN TO TALK
13:35AND SEE WHAT THEY NEED THERE.
13:38SO WHAT ARE YOU NOW SAYING TO
13:40YOUR ISRAELI INTERLOCUTORS.
13:45DO THEY UNDERSTAND THE EXTENT OF
13:47THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE?
13:48>> WELL, I WONDER.
13:51OF COURSE THERE IS THIS
13:54DEHUMANIZATION ON BOTH SIDES.
13:58SO, OF COURSE, ON THIS SIDE,
14:00PEOPLE ARE NATURALLY CONCERNED
14:02WITH FAMINE AMONG CHILDREN.
14:05ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, IT IS THE
14:08HOSTAGES THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE
14:12AND ONLY ISSUE.
14:14SO I'M LOOKING TO THE UNITED
14:15STATES TO BROKER NOW A DEAL
14:18WHEREBY THERE IS AN EXTENDED
14:21CEASE-FIRE FOR THIS
14:24WAR-EXHAUSTED POPULATION, A
14:25RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES, RELEASE
14:28FROM PRISONERS ALSO THAT ARE
14:30SITTING IN ARBITRARY DETENTION
14:31ON THE OTHER SIDE.
14:32AND THEN LET'S REBOOT AND START
14:35TO DISCUSS A FUTURE WITH SOME
14:38HOPE FOR BOTH PALESTINIANS AND
14:40ISRAELIS, SECURITY FOR ISRAEL,
14:42HOPE AND JUSTICE FOR THE
14:44PALESTINIANS.
14:45>> IT'S REALLY SUCH A DISASTER.
14:49LISTENING TO YOU IS VERY, VERY
14:51DISCONCERTING.
14:52JAN EGELAND, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
14:53INDEED.
14:53>> THANK YOU.
14:54THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
14:57>>> UKRAINE IS ALSO TESTING
14:59WESTERN RESOLVE, NOW IN THE
15:01THIRD YEAR OF RUSSIA'S INVASION.
15:02THEIR DEFENSE MINISTER SAYS THAT
15:04HALF THE WESTERN ARMS DELIVERIES
15:06FAILED TO ARRIVE ON TIME, AND
15:08NOW AFTER THE RETREAT FROM
15:10AVDIIVKA LAST WEEK, UKRAINIAN
15:12FORCES HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM THE
15:14NEARBY VILLAGE BUT SAY THEY ARE
15:16BUILDING UP DEFENSES ALONG A NEW
15:17FRONT LINE.
15:19WHO CAN FORGET THE MASSACRE THAT
15:21SHOWED THE WORLD THE WAR'S TRUE
15:23FACE?
15:23IT WAS IN BUCHA, THE KYIV SUBURB
15:25THAT REVEALED ATROCITIES AND
15:28ALLEGED RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES THAT
15:30TOOK PLACE EARLY ON IN THE WAR.
15:31AND I VISITED THAT TOWN ON THE
15:34SECOND ANNIVERSARY OF THE
15:36INVASION.
15:36AND JUST A REMINDER, OF COURSE,
15:38WHAT HAPPENED THERE IS STILL
15:38INCREDIBLY DISTURBING.
15:47THIS FATHER WALKS ME THROUGH
15:49BUCHA'S GRISLY PLACE IN HISTORY.
15:51HUNDREDS WERE BRUTALLY KILLED
15:54HERE DURING RUSSIA'S MONTH-LONG
15:56OCCUPATION, INCLUDING WOMEN,
15:57CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY.
15:59>> 99 YEARS OLD.
16:00>> OH, MY GOD.
16:031923 TO 2022.
16:05>> YES.
16:12>> THESE PEOPLE DIED NOT DURING
16:15THE FIGHTING BUT DURING THE
16:16OCCUPATION SAID THE FATHER, WHEN
16:18THE RUSSIAN WORLD CAME HERE.
16:19AND THIS IS ITS FACE.
16:21THESE ARE CORPSES.
16:22THESE ARE RAPED PEOPLE.
16:23THIS IS EVERY APARTMENT AND
16:25HOUSE LOOTED.
16:26THIS IS THE FACE OF THE RUSSIAN
16:32WORLD.
16:33FATHER ANDREI BECAME KNOWN AFTER
16:36THE RUSSIANS WERE PUSHED BACK
16:38FOR REVEALING THE SITE OF A MASS
16:39GRAVE JUST HERE ON HIS CHURCH
16:41GROUNDS, FILLED WITH 160 PEOPLE.
16:45HE SHOWS ME THE ORIGINAL POSTING
16:47ABOUT IT ON FACEBOOK, MARCH
16:4912th, 2022, WHEN RUSSIAN FORCES
16:52WERE STILL OCCUPYING BUCHA.
16:55AND FROM THIS MEMORIAL, YOU CAN
16:56SEE THAT RED HOUSE.
16:58MOST OF THE FAMILY WAS KILLED AS
17:00THEY TRIED TO FLEE.
17:02WHEN THE RUSSIANS TURNED A HEAVY
17:04MACHINE GUN ON THEIR CAR.
17:06IT STILL HAUNTS AND HORRIFIES
17:07THE GRANDMOTHER, VALENTINA.
17:13"IT'S VERY HARD FOR ME TO
17:14REMEMBER THIS.
17:15TWO YEARS HAVE PASSED, AND IT
17:17SEEMS LIKE IT HAPPENED TODAY,"
17:19SHE SAYS.
17:19"I SAW THEM OFF TO GET OUT OF
17:21THIS HELL, BUT THEY DIDN'T.
17:23THEY WERE SHOT."
17:26THIS IS THE FATE THEY WERE
17:29TRYING TO ESCAPE.
17:30THE MAIN STREET IN THIS
17:33RESIDENTIAL KEY SUBURB STREWN
17:35WITH BODIES, ALL CLEARLY
17:38CIVILIANS.
17:38THE DISCOVERY OF BASEMENT
17:41TORTURE AND EXECUTION CENTERS.
17:42PEOPLE FORCED TO KNEEL AND LIE
17:44WITH HANDS TIED BEHIND THEIR
17:46BACKS.
17:46WOMEN AND GIRLS RAPED.
17:49>> Translator: HOW COULD THIS
17:51HAPPEN?
17:51HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?
17:54>> STANDING ON THE STREET TODAY
17:56FEELS A LITTLE LIKE STANDING IN
17:57A GRAVEYARD.
17:58IT'S WHERE THE HORRORS OF THE
18:00RUSSIAN INVASION WERE FIRST
18:02EXPOSED, AND IT REMAINS A FIELD
18:04OF EVIDENCE, A MEMORIAL, AND A
18:07PILGRIMAGE SITE.
18:08>> Translator: WE BELIEVE THAT
18:09THESE ARE WAR CRIMES, AND THIS
18:10ALL WOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS A
18:12GENOCIDE BY THE WORLD.
18:14>> Reporter: PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY
18:15CAME HERE APRIL 4th, 2022, RIGHT
18:18AFTER HIS FORCES DROVE THE
18:19RUSSIANS OUT, AND HE BRINGS ALL
18:21HIS INTERNATIONAL VISITORS AND
18:23WORLD LEADERS TO BUCHA TO REMIND
18:25THE WORLD JUST WHAT THEY'RE
18:27FIGHTING AGAINST.
18:28MOSCOW HAS CLAIMED WITHOUT
18:29EVIDENCE THAT THIS WAS ALL
18:31STAGED AND WAS A PLANNED MEDIA
18:35CAMPAIGN.
18:36RUSSLAND WAS THE WAR CRIMES
18:38PROSECUTOR.
18:39HE'S NOW GOVERNOR OF THE KYIV
18:41REGION.
18:42"DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE
18:43RUSSIANS SAID IT WAS FAKE AND
18:45THE BODIES WERE FAKE AND THAT
18:46THE UKRAINIANS HAD KILLED PEOPLE
18:50THEMSELVES?"
18:50HE ASKS ME.
18:52WHEN WE SEIZED THE PHONES, WE
18:54PROVED TO THE WHOLE WORLD IT WAS
18:56THE RUSSIANS WHO KILLED PEOPLE,
18:59UKRAINIANS.
18:59RUSELAND SAYS THE WAR CRIMES
19:01INVESTIGATIONS CONTINUE USING A
19:02TROVE OF EVIDENCE FROM MULTIPLE
19:04CAMERAS, PHONES AND OTHER
19:06RECORDINGS.
19:07BUT WHEN THEY INFORMED THE
19:08RUSSIAN SOLDIERS THEY IDENTIFY,
19:10THEY DON'T COOPERATE.
19:12AND FATHER ANDRE TELLS US THE
19:15AWFUL TRUTH IS THAT BODIES ARE
19:16STILL BEING DISCOVERED TODAY,
19:18TWO YEARS ON.
19:20"FROM TIME TO TIME, WE FIND
19:22SOMEONE BY ACCIDENT," HE SAYS.
19:24"THE RUSSIANS HAD HIDDEN THEIR
19:26BODIES SOMEWHERE, AND WE FIND
19:28THEM.
19:28SO UNFORTUNATELY THE NUMBER OF
19:30PEOPLE WHO DIED IS INCREASING."
19:35MY REPORT FROM BUCHA JUST AS THE
19:38TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY WAS PASSING
19:39THIS WEEKEND.
19:40>>> WE TURN NOW TO THE SPOOKY
19:43HIT TV SHOW "TRUE DETECTIVE:
19:46NIGHT COUNTRY" SET IN ALASKA AND
19:48STARRING HOLLYWOOD LEGEND JODIE
19:50FOSTER AND BOXING CHAMP TURNED
19:52ACTOR KALI REIS.
19:54THIS FOURTH SEASON IS THE
19:55HIGHEST-RATED OF THE WHOLE
19:57ANTHOLOGY.
19:57HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
20:00>> I'M WORKING ON THIS NEW CASE,
20:03A MISSING SCIENTIST FOUND ON THE
20:07EDGE OF THE VILLAGES.
20:10FROZEN SOLID.
20:15>> IT'S BEEN SIX YEARS.
20:16WHY ARE YOU HERE?
20:18>> BECAUSE WE BOTH KNOW WHAT
20:19REALLY HAPPENED.
20:22>> BOTH STARS JOIN ME HERE IN
20:25LONDON RECENTLY JUST AHEAD OF
20:26THE SHOW'S RECENT GRAND FINALE,
20:28AND HERE IS OUR CONVERSATION.
20:32JODIE FOSTER, KALI REIS, WELCOME
20:33TO THE PROGRAM.
20:34>> THANK YOU.
20:35>> THANK YOU.
20:35>> YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ON
20:36TELEVISION FOR A LONG, LONG
20:38TIME, RIGHT?
20:38ON TV.
20:39I MEAN HAVE YOU EVER DONE A
20:40MAJOR IN YOUR ADULT LIFE TV
20:42SERIES?
20:43WHAT ATTRACTED YOU ABOUT "TRUE
20:46DETECTIVE" AND THIS PARTICULAR
20:48SERIOUS.
20:49>> I HAVE BEEN DOING A LITTLE
20:53BIT OF DIRECTING ON TELEVISION,
20:54SO IT'S SOMETHING I WAS FAMILIAR
20:55WITH.
20:55I WAS JUST LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT
20:58OPPORTUNITY, THE RIGHT SCRIPT,
20:58SOMETHING THAT MOVED ME REALLY.
21:00>> WHAT ABOUT THIS DOES?
21:01BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAY MOVING, I
21:04MEAN IT'S HORROR GENRE, IT'S
21:07THRILLING.
21:07IT'S IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT.
21:08I MEAN IT'S REALLY HEAVY DUTY.
21:10>> YEAH.
21:10IT'S A FULL EXPERIENCE.
21:12WE'RE SO PROUD OF THIS.
21:14I MEAN ISSA LOPEZ, THE DIRECTOR,
21:16JUST DID SUCH A MAGNIFICENT JOB
21:19WRITING ALL THE EPISODES AND
21:20CREATING THIS WORLD WITH THE TWO
21:22TRUE DETECTIVES THAT ARE FEMALE
21:24NOW.
21:24WE REMEMBER SEASON ONE AND
21:25MATTHEW McCONAUGHEY AND WOODY
21:28HARRELSON, BUT THERE'S SOMETHING
21:29REALLY EXTRAORDINARY ABOUT THE
21:30ANTHOLOGY AND BEING ABLE TO SAY
21:31WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING
21:32COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
21:33>> SO SINCE JODIE BROUGHT UP
21:36SEASON ONE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS THE
21:38DUDES.
21:40IT WAS THE BROS, YOU KNOW.
21:42IT'S GOOD OLD MALE TESTOSTERONE
21:44AND GETTING IT DONE, AND IT WAS
21:45REALLY -- IT'S ALSO A LITTLE
21:47SCARY AND SPOOKY.
21:49WAS IT THE FEMALE-LED CHARACTER
21:51OF THIS ONE THAT ATTRACTED YOU
21:53TO IT?
21:54AND IT'S YOUR FIRST MAJOR
21:56ON-SCREEN, RIGHT?
21:56>> YES.
21:57IT'S MY FIRST MAJOR ON-SCREEN.
21:59IT'S ONLY MY THIRD ACTING JOB AS
22:00WELL.
22:01SO I MEAN IT WAS -- THE STORY AS
22:04JODIE SAID THAT ISSA CREATED AND
22:07FROM THE FIRST PAGE I WAS
22:09CAPTIVATED ON THESE VERY COMPLEX
22:12CHARACTERS.
22:12SHE INCORPORATED THE PEOPLE OF
22:15ALASKA INTO THE CREATION
22:17STORIES, INTO THE CRIMES, INTO
22:19EVERY PART OF THE STORY IS
22:20AROUND THE PEOPLE.
22:21THAT'S WHAT REALLY ATTRACTED ME
22:23TO THIS VERY, VERY INTENSE STORY
22:25AND TO THE CHARACTER.
22:26>> AND NOT JUST AROUND THE
22:27PEOPLE.
22:28THIS IS VERY MUCH AN INDIGENOUS
22:31NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE THAT
22:32WE'RE ALL ENTERING.
22:33YOU ARE PART CAPE VERDEAN, PART
22:35NATIVE AMERICAN.
22:36WAS THAT ALSO AN ATTRACTIVE
22:39CALLING POINT FOR YOU?
22:40>> ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE THE
22:43REPRESENTATION OR LACK THEREOF
22:43THAT WE HAVE AS INDIGENOUS
22:45PEOPLE, IT'S GETTING A LOT
22:46BETTER AND WE'RE IN SUCH A GREAT
22:48TIME.
22:48SO WHEN IT WAS PRESENTED TO ME,
22:51THIS CHARACTER NAVARRO, SHE WAS
22:54PART OF TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS,
22:56PART OF THE COMMUNITY SHE WAS
22:56GOING TO BE POLICING.
22:59>> IT WAS YOUR CASE ALL THOSE
23:00MONTHS.
23:00YOU DIDN'T CLOSE IT.
23:05>> EXACTLY.
23:05>> IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SO
23:07FAMILIAR TO ME BECAUSE IT'S KIND
23:08OF THAT BALANCE THAT YOU HAVE TO
23:10HAVE.
23:10YOU DON'T FEEL ENOUGH FOR
23:11EITHER, SO IT JUST ATTRACTED ME
23:13TO THIS CHARACTER.
23:15>> JODIE FOSTER, KALI WAS A
23:18BOXING CHAMP.
23:18>> STILL IS.
23:19>> AND WILL MAYBE GO BACK TO
23:20BOXING?
23:20>> I'M NOT RETIRED YET.
23:22>> OKAY.
23:23AND SAID THAT WORKING WITH YOU
23:24WAS LIKE TRAINING WITH MIKE
23:26TYSON.
23:26>> OH.
23:27>> YES, IT WAS.
23:28>> WITHOUT THE BITING.
23:31>> YOU'VE STILL GOT YOUR EAR.
23:33>> IT WAS LIKE TRAINING WITH
23:35MIKE TYSON IN HIS PRIME.
23:37WHAT BETTER WAY TO --
23:39>> IT MUST BE INTIMIDATING.
23:40THIS IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S
23:42GREAT, GREAT ACTORS SINCE THE
23:44AGE OF 6 YEARS OLD.
23:46MULTI-OSCAR-WINNING, AWARD
23:48WINNING, DIRECTOR AND ALL THAT,
23:49IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS FOR SO MANY
23:51REASONS FOR SO MANY YEARS.
23:52WAS IT INTIMIDATING?
23:54>> ABSOLUTELY.
23:54I WAS TERRIFIED.
23:56BUT I WAS EXCITED BECAUSE I KNEW
23:59SOMETHING TERRIIED ME LIKE
24:03THIS, I KNEW I WAS GOING TO
24:05LEARN SO MUCH.
24:06>> JODIE, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY A
24:09MENTOR OF SORTS, I GUESS, FOR
24:11ALL THE NEWCOMERS AND YOUNGER
24:12ACTRESSES.
24:13BUT I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN
24:15READING, AND I WANT YOU TO
24:16EXPLAIN IT TO ME, THAT WHEN ISSA
24:18BROUGHT YOU THIS, YOU DECIDED
24:19THAT YOU WANTED YOUR CHARACTER,
24:23LIZ, TO BE AGED UP.
24:24>> WELL, MY AGE, YES.
24:26>> YOUR AGE.
24:27>> YES.
24:27>> BUT PUTTING NAVARRO'S STORY
24:31AS THE CENTER.
24:32IS THAT RIGHT?
24:33>> YEAH, I THINK ISSA PROBABLY
24:35WANTED THAT TOO, BUT IT WAS
24:36SOMETHING I REALLY WANTED TO
24:38REMIND US THAT WE WERE DOING
24:40SOMETHING THAT ISN'T DONE VERY
24:42MUCH, JUST TO HAVE THE CENTRAL
24:43VOICE OF THE FILM BE AN
24:44INDIGENOUS VOICE, TO BE LOOKED
24:48THROUGH THOSE EYES IN A WAY NOT
24:51JUST BECAUSE WE'RE DOING
24:51REPRESENTATION, BUT BECAUSE WE
24:52REALLY WANT TO BE IN THAT BODY
24:53AND REALLY UNDERSTAND IT FROM
24:54THAT PERSPECTIVE.
24:55SO TO DO THAT, I'M JUST HERE TO
24:57SUPPORT.
24:58SO I KIND OF REVERSE ENGINEERED
25:03SUPPORT KALI'S CHARACTER'S
25:04JOURNEY.
25:04>> THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ENOUGH.
25:07>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A
25:08FUNNY THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN
25:11YOU TURN 60, I THINK.
25:13AT LEAST FOR ME, I FEEL LIKE
25:14THERE'S SOME WEIRD CHEMICAL THAT
25:15STARTS GOING OFF IN YOUR BODY,
25:17AND YOU JUST DON'T CARE.
25:18AND PART OF THAT NOT CARING IS
25:20THAT YOU SUDDENLY REALIZE THAT
25:22IT'S SO MUCH MORE FUN AND MORE
25:25SATISFYING TO RECOGNIZE THAT
25:26IT'S NOT YOUR TIME.
25:27IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S TIME, AND
25:29IT'S UP TO YOU TO HELP SUPPORT
25:30THEM AND BRING WHATEVER
25:31EXPERIENCE AND WISDOM YOU HAVE
25:33TO THAT PROCESS.
25:34AND YOU GET TO BE PART OF A
25:36TEAM, WHICH IS AMAZING.
25:37IT'S SO MUCH BETTER THAN DOING
25:39EVERYTHING ON YOUR OWN AND BEING
25:40ALL NERVOUS AND ANXIOUS ABOUT
25:42YOURSELF.
25:42>> AND KALI, THAT IS REALLY
25:46GENEROUS IN MY OPINION.
25:49WHAT DID YOU -- YOU BROUGHT A
25:50LOT OF YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, I
25:52THINK, FROM WHAT I READ, TO THE
25:54CHARACTER.
25:55YOU HAD AN EXPERIENCE THAT WAS
25:57VERY NEGATIVE WITH A POLICE
25:59OFFICER IN RHODE ISLAND WHERE
26:01YOU COME FROM, AND, YOU KNOW,
26:03YOU PLAY A VERY VULNERABLE
26:05CHARACTER IN THIS.
26:07JODIE'S CHARACTER IS MUCH MORE
26:09HARD ASS, RIGHT?
26:10MUCH MORE HARD BITTEN, RIGHT?
26:12>> YEAH.
26:12SHE DOES SOME ASS KICKING,
26:14THOUGH.
26:15>> NO, SHE DOES.
26:17>> SHE HAS A BAD TEMPER.
26:19>> AND YOU'RE PRETTY PHYSICALLY
26:21INTIMIDATING AS YOU'RE PORTRAYED
26:22IN THAT FILM.
26:23BUT YOU HAVE A VERY SOFT SPOT
26:25FOR THE CENTRAL CHARACTER, WHO
26:26IS THE MURDERED WOMAN, ANNIE,
26:28AND ALSO YOUR OWN SISTER.
26:33THERE'S SO MUCH THAT COMES INTO
26:35THIS HORROR DETECTIVE FLICK.
26:37>> YEAH, THERE IS.
26:40THE HORRORIS THAT IT'S
26:43REALISTIC.
26:43ISSA PUT A LOT OF REALISTIC
26:46ISSUES, ESPECIALLY AROUND THE
26:48INDIGENOUS COMMUNITY, ONE BEING
26:50MISSING AND MURDERED INDIGENOUS
26:52WOMEN.
26:52WE DON'T GET MAINSTREAM
26:53ATTENTION ON THIS, AND THERE
26:54ISN'T ANY ANSWERS.
26:56IN ISOLATED COMMUNITIES,
26:58ESPECIALLY INDIGENOUS
26:59COMMUNITIES, SUICIDE RATES ARE
27:00TEN TIMES WORSE.
27:01WOMEN ARE TEN TIMES MORE LIKELY
27:03TO FACE VIOLENT CRIMES IN THEIR
27:04LIFETIME.
27:05SO THESE ARE THE REALISTIC
27:08ISSUES THAT WERE REALLY NEAR AND
27:09DEAR TO MY HEART PERSONALLY AND
27:11THAT I BROUGHT RIGHT INTO
27:13NAVARRO'S CHARACTER.
27:14SHE HAS THIS CRAVING FOR TRUTH
27:16AND JUSTICE FOR THESE WOMEN.
27:17SHE DOES HAVE A SHORT FUSE
27:19RIGHTLY SO.
27:19THERE WAS A LOT OF REALISM FROM
27:22MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND THE
27:23OTHER EXPERIENCE THAT I'VE HEARD
27:24FROM DIFFERENT FAMILIES AND
27:25COMMUNITIES DURING MY RESEARCH.
27:27>> THIS POLICE OFFICER IN RHODE
27:28ISLAND, WHAT DID HE DO?
27:29DID HE BEAT YOU UP?
27:30DID HE GET YOU IN A -- I CAN'T
27:32REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT HAS HE
27:33SEEN THIS?
27:34>> I HOPE SO.
27:35I REALLY DO.
27:35I HOPE SO.
27:36YOU KNOW, IT'S CRAZY THE THINGS,
27:39TOO.
27:39THAT REALLY MESSED ME UP BECAUSE
27:41I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.
27:43I WAS AT WORK.
27:43I WAS A SECURITY OFFICER AT A
27:46CLUB, AND HE CAME IN AND JUST
27:48ASSERTED HIS AUTHORITY IN THE
27:49WRONG WAY THAT THEY DO, AND HE
27:51JUST STARTED WAILING ON ME.
27:59HE JUST WENT CALLING ME ALL
28:01DEROGATORY NAMES AND THREW ME IN
28:02THE PADDY WAGON AND TOLD ME I
28:04HAD TO APOLOGIZE IN ORDER TO GET
28:05MYSELF OUT.
28:06WHAT HE DIDN'T KNOW IS THERE WAS
28:08A CAMERA UNDERNEATH WHERE
28:09EVERYTHING HAPPENED.
28:10BUT I WAS CONFUSED.
28:11IT WAS A DARK TIME IN MY LIFE,
28:14AND IT REALLY MESSED ME UP,
28:15ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU THINK LIKE
28:17POLICE OFFICERS ARE SUPPOSED TO
28:18BE THERE TO HELP AND PROTECT AND
28:20SERVE.
28:21YOU KNOW, I'M PART OF NOT A
28:23POLICE OFFICER, BUT I WAS
28:24SECURITY.
28:24SO TO FLIP IT ON ITS HEAD AND
28:26KIND OF REALLY HAVE TO FACE THIS
28:28ACTUAL THING, PUT THE UNIFORM
28:30ON, IT WAS -- IT WAS CATHARTIC.
28:32I WILL SAY THAT.
28:33BUT I'M PROUD THAT I WAS ABLE TO
28:34DO THAT.
28:35I COULDN'T EVEN HEAR SIRENS FOR
28:37A WHILE.
28:37IT WAS REALLY BAD.
28:39>> WOW.
28:40JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SCENERY,
28:42OBVIOUSLY IT'S SET IN ALASKA,
28:43THE NIGHT COUNTRY.
28:44BUT YOU DIDN'T FILM IN ALASKA,
28:45RIGHT?
28:46YOU FILMED IN ICELAND?
28:48>> WE FILMED IN ICELAND BECAUSE
28:50WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FILM IN
28:53ALASKA.
28:53IT WAS TOO REMOTE, AND THERE ARE
28:54NO ROADS IN A LOT OF THE PLACES
28:56WE'D HAVE TO BE.
28:57WE FILMED IN ICELAND, AND WE
28:59BROUGHT EVERYBODY FROM ALASKA
29:01THERE.
29:01THAT WAS FUN.
29:02WE HAD WONDERFUL ALASKAN ACTORS
29:04AND ALSO GREENLANDIC ACTORS WHO
29:07SHARE A HERITAGE.
29:08SO SOME OF THEM, THEY SORT OF
29:09MEET IN THE ARCTIC AND ALL THE
29:15NATIVE INUIT PEOPLE CONNECTED
29:17WITH EACH OTHER, SO THAT WAS
29:18SATISFYING.
29:19>> WAS IT DARK ALL THE TIME?
29:20OBVIOUSLY EVERY SCENE WE SEE IS
29:22DARK, AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IF
29:26YOU'VE GOT SADS OR SOMETHING,
29:27IT'S DIFFICULT.
29:28>> IT'S DARK MOST OF THE DAY.
29:29WHEN THE SUN IS UP AND LIKE THE
29:31DARKNESS OF THE DARK, IT'S ONLY
29:33LIKE DAWN FOR LIKE MAYBE THREE
29:34OR FOUR HOURS OF THE DAY.
29:36IT'S VERY LIKE A TWILIGHT.
29:38BUT IT'S DARK.
29:39BUT I WASN'T PERSONALLY
29:41AFFECTED, BUT I CAN SEE HOW
29:42BEING IN AN ISOLATED AREA LIKE
29:44THAT FOR THAT LONG, DARK ALL THE
29:45TIME --
29:46>> HOW LONG WAS THE SHOOT?
29:47>> WE WERE THERE FOR SEVEN
29:48MONTHS.
29:48>> AND ALL DARK DAYS?
29:51>> WELL, NOT ALL OF THEM.
29:52WE GOT THERE IN OCTOBER, SO IT
29:54WAS MORE LIKE FALL, AND IT
29:56WASN'T --
29:56>> SO WE GOT TO EXPERIENCE THE
29:58TRANSITION OF IT BEING KIND OF
29:59LIKE NORMAL TO ALL DARK.
30:00THEN WHEN WE LEFT, IT WAS GOING
30:02BACKWARDS ACTUALLY.
30:02>> SO THE LAST MAJOR THRILLER
30:05DETECTIVE THAT YOU PLAYED
30:07OBVIOUSLY WAS IN HANNIBAL
30:08ELECTOR.
30:09>> "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS."
30:11>> "SILENCE OF THE LAMBS,"
30:14SORRY.
30:14GOT AN OSCAR.
30:16HOW DIFFERENT WAS THIS?
30:17>> WELL, I NEVER PLAYED ANOTHER
30:19POLICE OFFICER SORT OF FBI
30:20INVESTIGATOR EVER AGAIN BECAUSE
30:23I FELT LIKE "SILENCE OF THE
30:23LAMBS" WAS SUCH A UNICORN.
30:25IT WAS SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY
30:27MOVIE.
30:27ALL THINGS CAME AND WERE
30:29ALIGNED, AND I REALLY HAVEN'T
30:31FELT THAT FEELING UNTIL THIS
30:33ONE.
30:33I WAS SAYING THAT LAST NIGHT,
30:34YOU KNOW.
30:36THIS FILM WAS VERY EASY TO MAKE
30:37BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH LOVE,
30:40AND IT'S SO GENUINE, AND WE WERE
30:42ALL CRAZY ABOUT EACH OTHER.
30:44AND SOMEHOW EVERYTHING JUST KIND
30:45OF FELL INTO PLACE.
30:46AND I FELT THAT ABOUT "SILENCE
30:48OF THE LAMBS" TOO.
30:49>> CONGRATULATIONS BECAUSE
30:50YOU'RE NOMINATED AGAIN, IN THIS
30:51CASE BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS FOR
30:55"NYAD."
30:55TELL ME THE STORY.
30:56>> IT'S THE STORY OF DIANA NYAD,
30:59WHO IS A SWIMMER, HAD BEEN A
31:02MARATHON SWIMMER FOR HER WHOLE
31:03LIFE, AND THEN CAME BACK AT THE
31:04AGE OF 60, FINALLY ACCOMPLISHING
31:07HER MISSION AT 64 TO SWIM FROM
31:10CUBA TO FLORIDA.
31:10>> THAT'S MORE THAN 100 MILES.
31:12>> MORE THAN 100 MILES, AND NO
31:14PERSON ELSE HAS EVER DONE IT
31:15WITHOUT A SHARK TANK.
31:16>> IT REALLY IS EXTRAORDINARY.
31:17YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO ONE OF
31:19THE THINGS I THOUGHT WAS
31:20INCREDIBLY MOVING ABOUT IT IS
31:21NOT ONLY HER DETERMINATION AND
31:22HER SUCCESS AT THAT AGE, PLUS AT
31:26ANY AGE, BUT ANNETTE BENNING AND
31:29YOURSELF AGAIN KIND OF AGED UP.
31:31I MEAN YOU WERE NOT SHY ABOUT
31:33THE SUN DAMAGE AND THE MASK
31:35DAMAGE THAT SHE HAD.
31:38I MEAN THAT TAKES SOME COURAGE
31:39ALSO.
31:39>> YEAH.
31:41AS I SAY, I WAS BEST SUPPORTING
31:44ABS BECAUSE I NEVER HAD TO GET
31:46IN THE WATER.
31:47I BASICALLY STOOD ON THE BOAT
31:49AND SUCKED IN MY STOMACH.
31:51>> AND SHOUT AT HER.
31:52>> YOU KNOW THE ACTUAL REALLY
31:54BONNIE, THE FRIEND, AND DIANA.
31:56>> DIANA AND BONNIE ARE GOOD
31:59FRIENDS.
31:59I LOVE THEM.
32:00THAT REALLY WAS THE REASON I DID
32:01IT.
32:02THAT AND WORKING WITH ANNETTE.
32:03I SEE THEM ALL THE TIME, BONNIE
32:06AND DIANA.
32:06WE PLAY CARDS TOGETHER AND WATCH
32:08TENNIS MATCHES TOGETHER.
32:09I REALLY LOVE THEM.
32:12>> IS IT SO REALLY EXCITING TO
32:14GET AN AWARD NOMINATION?
32:16AGAIN, YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT
32:18SINCE YOU WERE --
32:19>> 3.
32:19>> 3?
32:20>> YEAH.
32:20>> BOGGLES THE MIND, RIGHT?
32:22>> SO CUTE.
32:23>> YEAH, IT'S EXCITING.
32:25YOU KNOW, I THINK TRUE DETECTIVE
32:27IS ONE OF THE BEST EXPERIENCES
32:28I'VE EVER HAD.
32:30YOU'D THINK LIKE, OH, WELL, IT'S
32:32NEVER GOING TO GET ANY BETTER.
32:33BUT THEN YOU GET TO 61 YEARS
32:35OLD, TRUE DETECTIVE, AND I DO
32:37FEEL LIKE WE'RE THIS FAMILY AND
32:39WE DID SOMETHING I'M SO PROUD
32:40OF.
32:41SO IT'S SURPRISING THAT IT GETS
32:44BETTER AND BETTER.
32:44>> JUST TALKING ABOUT A FAMILY,
32:46THERE'S THE WHOLE TAXI DRIVER
32:47KIND OF CAST, GROUP, THAT'S ALL
32:49MEETING AT THE OSCARS, RIGHT?
32:51>> THAT'S RIGHT.
32:52>> ROBERT DE NIRO AND MARTIN
32:56SCORSESE AND "KILLERS OF THE
32:58FLOWER MOON."
32:58>> YES.
32:58>> WILL IT BE NICE TO SEE THEM
33:00ALL AGAIN, OR DO YOU SEE THEM
33:01REGULARLY?
33:02>> NO, I DON'T SEE THEM
33:03REGULARLY.
33:04BUT EVERY TIME I SEE THEM I'M
33:05LIKE, WOW, DAMN, WE'RE OLD.
33:08>> I READ BY THE TIME YOU DID
33:09THAT FILM, YOU THINK --
33:11>> I WAS 12 YEARS OLD.
33:12>> YOU WERE 12, AND YOU HAD MORE
33:14EXPERIENCE IN FILM.
33:15>> YES.
33:15>> THAN EITHER MARTIN SCORSESE
33:18OR ROBERT DE NIRO.
33:19>> I HAD MADE MORE MOVIES THAN
33:21EITHER ONE OF THEM AT THAT
33:22POINT.
33:22IT IS FUNNY TO SEE -- I MEAN OF
33:25COURSE I HAVE SO MUCH RESPECT
33:26FOR SCORSESE AND DE NIRO AND ALL
33:28OF THE MOVIES THEY'VE MADE.
33:29BUT, YEAH, MY REFERENCE FOR THEM
33:31IS VERY DIFFERENT.
33:32MARTIN SCORSESE HAD A LITTLE
33:34FUNNY MUSTACHE, AND HE WAS
33:35REALLY YOUNG, AND HIS MOTHER WAS
33:37ON-SET THE WHOLE TIME.
33:38SHE WAS ALWAYS LIKE --
33:39>> ON TAXI DRIVER?
33:40>> YEAH.
33:41SHE WAS TUCKING IN HIS SHIRT ALL
33:42THE TIME AND PATTING HIS BUTT.
33:44>> AND NOT MAKING SURE YOU WERE
33:46OKAY.
33:46>> I DO HAVE A DIFFERENT MEMORY
33:48OF THEM.
33:49>> PATTING HIS BUTT.
33:50THAT'S GOOD.
33:51AND JUST BECAUSE, "KILLERS OF
33:54THE FLOWER MOON" IS ANOTHER
33:55AMAZINGLY TIMELY FILM IN TERMS
33:57OF DIVERSITY AND REPRESENTATION
33:58OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.
33:59>> MM-HMM.
34:00>> DID YOU LIKE THE FILM?
34:02>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S MIXED
34:04FEELINGS ABOUT THE FILM.
34:06THEY'RE NOT ANYTHING NEGATIVE.
34:07IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHERE
34:08YOU KIND OF HAVE TO TAKE THINGS
34:10IN STEPS.
34:11I BELIEVE THAT I AM SO PROUD
34:12THAT THEY WORKED WITH THE OSAGE
34:14NATION TO TELL THE STORY FROM AN
34:16AUTHENTIC -- FROM THAT
34:18EXPERIENCE, FROM THAT
34:18PERSPECTIVE INSTEAD OF GOING IN,
34:20SAYING WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO
34:21DO, AND THEN DOING WHAT THEY
34:22WANTED TO DO.
34:23IT WAS SO -- I AM SO PROUD OF
34:26LILY GLADSTONE AND THE ENTIRE
34:29INDIGENOUS CAST AND THE OSAGE
34:30NATION.
34:31SHE DID A WONDERFUL JOB, AND SO
34:33DID THE WHOLE CAST.
34:34I THINK HAVING AN ALLY LIKE
34:36MARTIN SCORSESE WHO TOOK HIS
34:37PLATFORM AND WORKED WITH THEM,
34:39IT'S AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY TO
34:40CONTINUE TO GO FORWARD.
34:41I DID ENJOY THE PERFORMANCES IN
34:43IT.
34:43I THINK THAT IT CAN GO -- KEEP
34:47GOING IN --
34:47>> KEEP BEING DEVELOPED?
34:50>> KEEP BEING DEVELOPED IN A
34:52GOOD DIRECTION.
34:52>> I WAS GOING TO SAY ONE OF THE
34:54THINGS WE HAVE GOING FOR US IS
34:55WE HAVE THIS THING CALLED
34:57STREAMING, AND YOU'RE ABLE TO
34:58HAVE LIMITED SERIES.
34:59IT GIVES YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO
35:01EXPLORE SOMETHING IN A REALLY
35:02DEEP WAY, SOMETIMES A DEEPER WAY
35:03THAN YOU COULD EVER DO ON FILM.
35:05AND EVEN THOUGH SCORSESE WAS
35:06ABLE TO DO A MOVIE THAT LASTED
35:083 1/2 HOURS, QUITE LONG, RIGHT,
35:09TO EXPLORE THAT WHOLE STORY,
35:12THERE'S SO MUCH MORE STORY THERE
35:15THAT WASN'T LOOKED INTO THAT I
35:17WOULD LIKE TO OFFER TO HIM,
35:19PLEASE DO A LIMITED SERIES FOR
35:20SIX HOURS SO THAT WE CAN EXPLORE
35:23THE WHOLE STORY.
35:23>> ARE YOU MAKING US SOME NEWS
35:26HERE?
35:26SOME HOLLYWOOD NEWS?
35:27>> SHOULD I SEND HIM A NOTE,
35:29LIKE PLEASE DO A LIMITED SERIES.
35:30>> THAT YOU'LL DIRECT IT AND HE
35:34CAN PRODUCE IT.
35:35>> OR HE CAN ACT IN IT.
35:36THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.
35:38YOU ARE GOING TO KEEP ACTING.
35:39>> ABSOLUTELY.
35:40>> AND KEEP BOXING?
35:42>> I'M NOT RETIRED FROM BOXING
35:44YET.
35:45>> I LIKE THAT DIPLOMATIC
35:47ANSWER.
35:48>> I MEAN I'VE BEEN BOXING
35:49PROFESSIONALLY FOR ALMOST 16
35:53YEARS NOW, AND I'VE SEEN IT
35:54EVOLVE, AND IT'S BEAUTIFUL.
35:55AND IF IT WASN'T FOR BOXING, I
35:58PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN
35:59FOUND, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
36:01SO I LOVE BOXING.
36:02I'LL ALWAYS BE INVOLVED IN IT.
36:04FIGHTERS NEVER KNOW WHEN TO
36:05QUIT.
36:05BUT I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT LONG
36:07AT ALL.
36:07>> MAYBE YOU KNOW WHEN TO QUIT
36:09WHEN YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING AS
36:10AMAZING AS THIS TO STEP INTO.
36:11>> ABSOLUTELY.
36:12IT'S REALLY NICE TO HAVE IT, YOU
36:14KNOW, BOTH RIGHT NOW.
36:14LIKE I SAID, I HAVEN'T FOUGHT
36:17SINCE MY LAST FIGHT IN 2021, AND
36:18I'M NOT BANGING DOWN THE GYM
36:20DOOR.
36:20BUT IF THE OPPORTUNITY IS THERE,
36:22BUT I'M GOING TO CONTINUE
36:24ACTING.
36:24I LOVE THE STORYTELLING, AND I
36:26GUESS I'M OKAY AT IT.
36:27>> IT'S REMARKABLE.
36:29I MEAN BOTH YOUR PERFORMANCES
36:30ARE REMARKABLE.
36:32>> THANK YOU.
36:32>> AND WHAT NEXT ON THE ACTING
36:34FRONT FOR YOU?
36:35>> NO IDEA.
36:36>> AND DIRECTING FRONT?
36:37>> DON'T KNOW YET.
36:38IT'S SOMETHING I'M WORKING ON.
36:40HOPEFULLY I'LL BE ABLE TO GET
36:42THAT OFF THE GROUND.
36:43>> I'LL GIVE YOU A PLATFORM TO
36:44TELL US.
36:45>> I DID TWO FILMS BACK-TO-BACK
36:47AS AN ACTRESS, SO I THINK I'D
36:49LIKE TO STEP BEHIND THE CAMERA
36:50AGAIN.
36:51>> JODIE FOSTER, KALI REIS,
36:53THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.
36:56>> THANK YOU.
36:57>> TWO WOMEN PACKING A VERY
37:00POWERFUL PUNCH.
37:02>>> PRESIDENT BIDEN MET WITH
37:03CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS TODAY,
37:04PRESSING THEM TO PASS HIS AID
37:05PACKAGE FOR UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.
37:07THE FAILURE SO FAR TO DO SO IS
37:10HURTING UKRAINE AND UNDERMINING
37:11AMERICA ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.
37:15POLITICO REPORTER ALEXANDER WARD
37:16TAKES A LOOK AT HOW BIDEN'S
37:19FOREIGN POLICY TEAM COPES WITH
37:21THESE CHALLENGES IN HIS NEW
37:24BOOK, "THE INTERNATIONALISTS,"
37:26AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO
37:28TALK ABOUT THE EFFORT TO REPAIR
37:30AMERICA'S GLOBAL REPUTATION.
37:32>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.
37:34ALEX WARD, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
37:36>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
37:37>> YOUR NEW BOOK "THE
37:39INTERNATIONALISTS" IS SORT OF A
37:41GROUP BIOGRAPHY OF ALL THE
37:42PEOPLE DOING BIDEN'S FOREIGN
37:44POLICY.
37:45BUT ONE OF THE FOCAL POINTS IS
37:47JAKE SULLIVAN, ONE OF THE
37:50SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE
37:51DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN POLICY
37:53ESTABLISHMENT IN THE PAST 15
37:55YEARS.
37:55AND YOU START WITH HIM THE NIGHT
37:59THAT HILLARY CLINTON, HIS
38:01PATRON, LOSES TO DONALD TRUMP,
38:05AND HE FIGURES OUT WHAT THE
38:07PROBLEM MAY HAVE BEEN.
38:08TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
38:09>> YEAH.
38:10I MEAN HE -- YOU KNOW, AS HE
38:11SAID, HE GREW UP SORT OF IN THE
38:14TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN
38:15POLICY ESTABLISHMENT, AND HE IS
38:18NEXT TO HILLARY CLINTON AS SHE'S
38:19CONCEDING TO TRUMP.
38:20AND WHAT HE'S STARTING TO FIGURE
38:21OUT IS TRUMP MAY NOT NECESSARILY
38:23WON BECAUSE OF HIS FOREIGN
38:24POLICY VIEWS BUT HE DIDN'T LOSE
38:26BECAUSE OF THEM EITHER.
38:27SO WHAT WAS IT ABOUT WHAT TRUMP
38:29WAS SAYING THAT WAS APPEALING TO
38:31SO MANY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS?
38:33SO OUT OF POWER, JAKE AND
38:34FRIENDS SPEND ABOUT FOUR YEARS
38:36IN, I CALL IT THE WILDERNESS,
38:37TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS
38:39THAT WAS APPEALING TO SO MANY
38:41PEOPLE AND WHAT COULD BE BROUGHT
38:43INTO A DEMOCRATIC FOREIGN POLICY
38:44THINKING FRAMEWORK TO UPDATE IT
38:46FOR THE 21st CENTURY.
38:48THEY COME UP WITH A PHRASE WE'VE
38:49HEARD A LOT, WHICH IS A FOREIGN
38:52POLICY FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS.
38:53THEIR BASIC POINT IS ANY FOREIGN
38:55POLICY DECISION THAT IS TAKEN BY
38:56THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO BE
38:58EASILY EXPLAINED TO THE EVERYDAY
39:00AMERICAN AS TO WHY IT BENEFITS
39:01THEM.
39:02AND IF THAT CANNOT BE DONE, THEN
39:04THAT MIGHT NOT BE A FOREIGN
39:05POLICY DIRECTION WE'RE PURSUING.
39:07>> YOU SAY IT'S A FOREIGN POLICY
39:09GEARED TO THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND
39:10YOU USE SOME EXAMPLES LIKE A
39:12LITTLE BIT MORE TRADE
39:13RESTRICTION HERE OR THERE OR
39:15HELP FOR AN INDUSTRIAL POLICY.
39:18BUT WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN?
39:20THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT ADDS
39:21UP TO THAT MUCH MORE WHEN IT
39:23COMES TO CHANGING FOREIGN
39:24POLICY.
39:24>> NOT NECESSARILY.
39:26BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE WAY
39:27THEY FRAME IT.
39:30SO LET'S TAKE UKRAINE.
39:31THEY MAKE TWO GENERAL ARGUMENTS.
39:33ONE IS THE REASON THE U.S. NEEDS
39:36TO DEFEND UKRAINE IS BECAUSE IF
39:38RUSSIA IS NOT STOPPED THERE, IT
39:39WILL GO INTO A NATO COUNTRY
39:41EVENTUALLY.
39:41AMERICAN SONS AND DAUGHTERS WILL
39:44GO TO WAR.
39:45A LOT MORE MONEY WILL BE SPENT
39:46ON THAT FIGHT, MEANING IT WILL
39:48BE EVEN COSTLIER IN TERMS OF
39:50BLOOD AND TREASURE ENDEAVOR THAN
39:51IT IS NOW.
39:53THEN THERE'S THE SECOND ASPECT,
39:54WHICH IS WE ARE SENDING OUR OLD
39:57MILITARY EQUIPMENT TO UKRAINE AT
39:58THIS POINT FOR THEM TO USE
39:59AGAINST RUSSIA, WHICH MEANS WE
40:00NEED TO DEVELOP NEWER, MORE
40:02ADVANCED WEAPONRY TO MAKE OUR
40:04MILITARY STRONGER.
40:05AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS
40:06MANUFACTURING JOBS IN OHIO, IN
40:09MISSISSIPPI, IN MICHIGAN, IN
40:10TEXAS AND KANSAS.
40:11SO THERE IS A REAL MIDDLE CLASS
40:13JOBS BENEFIT TO THIS DEFENSE.
40:15THAT'S WHY THEY DON'T
40:16NECESSARILY WANT TO SEND TROOPS.
40:17THEY DON'T THINK THAT'S WORTH
40:19IT.
40:19THEY THINK UKRAINE IS DOING A
40:20WELL ENOUGH JOB WITH THE OLDER
40:22WEAPONRY WE HAVE.
40:23BUT WE CAN ACTUALLY DEFEND
40:24UKRAINE AND IMPROVE THE MIDDLE
40:26CLASS ECONOMIC POSITION WITH THE
40:27POLICY THEY'RE PURSUING.
40:28>> BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE UKRAINE
40:31WAR HAS BEEN -- OR OUR SUPPORT
40:32FOR UKRAINE HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED
40:34MORE BY A SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRACY,
40:36AND THAT SEEMS A CORE TO WHAT
40:40BIDEN REPRESENTS, DEFENDING
40:42DEMOCRACY WHEREVER IT SEEKS TO
40:44FLOURISH AS JOHN QUINCY ADAMS
40:46WOULD SAY.
40:47HOW DOES THAT FIT IN?
40:49I MEAN MAYBE YOU CAST IT AS,
40:50OKAY, WE MAKE A FEW MORE WEAPONS
40:52HERE IN FACTORIES.
40:53BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S
40:55THE CORE OF THE NEW BIDEN-ISM
40:58YOU TALK ABOUT.
40:58>> I THINK IT IS TO AN EXTENT,
41:00BUT THE WAY THEY FRAMED IT AS
41:02YOU TALKED ABOUT, DEMOCRACY.
41:05NOTHING GETS JOE BIDEN MORE
41:06ANIMATED THAN BEING SEEN AS THE
41:09PROTECTOR OF DEMOCRACY
41:09WORLDWIDE.
41:10THAT IS WHAT HE BELIEVES APPEALS
41:13TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC AT THIS
41:14POINT.
41:14IN THE 2020 ELECTION, ONE OF THE
41:16THINGS HE WAS ARGUING IS DONALD
41:18TRUMP IS NOT A SMALL "D"
41:20DEMOCRAT, THAT DEMOCRACY WAS ON
41:21THE LINE.
41:21IT'S THE SAME ARGUMENT HE'S
41:23GOING TO MAKE IN 2024.
41:24HE'S TRIED TO CONNECT THE FIGHT
41:26FOR DEMOCRACY WORLDWIDE WITH THE
41:27FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AT HOME.
41:27THAT YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY SAY
41:29YOU CAN BE A STRONG DEMOCRACY IF
41:31YOU'RE NOT HELPING IF FLOURISH
41:33ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD.
41:33SO THAT IS A BIG PART OF IT.
41:35BUT SORT OF THE SECOND ORDER
41:39ARGUMENTS ARE TRUMP-TYPE
41:41ARGUMENTS THAT WOULD NOT HAVE
41:43BEEN MADE IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE
41:44RETHINKING THEY DID AND TRUMP'S
41:46VICTORY IN 2016.
41:46>> THE BIG NEWS THIS WEEK IN
41:50TERMS OF GREAT GEOPOLITICS IS
41:52THAT HUNGARY HAS AGREED NOW TO
41:54LET SWEDEN INTO NATO.
41:57WE GOT FINLAND INTO NATO, NOW
41:59SWEDEN.
41:59THAT'S A HUGE SHIFT THAT OVER
42:01THE PAST 50 YEARS OF FOREIGN
42:04POLICY ESTABLISHMENT NOBODY
42:04WOULD HAVE DREAMED OF THAT
42:06EXPANSION OF NATO.
42:07HOW BIG OF A DEAL IS THAT, AND
42:09IS THAT JUST SERENDIPITOUS, OR
42:11IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THE BIDEN
42:13ADMINISTRATION WAS PUSHING FOR?
42:14>> THEY WERE CERTAINLY PUSHING
42:15FOR IT ALTHOUGH WE HAVE TO SAY
42:18THAT THIS IS FINLAND AND
42:19SWEDEN'S OWN DOING.
42:21THEY SAW WHAT RUSSIA WAS UP TO
42:22IN UKRAINE, AND THEY HAD BEEN
42:23AGGRESSIVE IN THE ARCTIC REGION
42:25AND NORTH EUROPEAN REGION FOR A
42:26LONG TIME.
42:26SO THEY SAW A MOMENT TO JOIN
42:29NATO, AND IT WORKED.
42:30THEIR PUBLICS WERE ON THEIR SIDE
42:32OF COURSE.
42:32JOE BIDEN A BIG NATO FAN LIKED
42:34THE FACT THAT NATO WOULD EXPAND
42:36UNDER HIS WATCH.
42:37SO THIS IS WHY HE SAYS THE LINE
42:39CONSISTENTLY, YOU KNOW, THAT
42:40PUTIN WAS HOPING FOR THE
42:44FINLANDIZATION OF NATO, AND
42:46INSTEAD HE GOT THE NATOIZATION
42:49OF FINLAND.
42:52IN THEIR MIND, YOU GO A BIT MORE
42:54SLOWLY, BUT YOU GO FURTHER WITH
42:56ALLIES.
42:57THEY WOULD ARGUE THAT SAY RUSSIA
42:58HAD DONE THIS UNDER TRUMP'S
43:00WATCH.
43:00ONE, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE THE
43:02STAUNCH U.S. DEFENSE OF UKRAINE
43:03MOST LIKELY.
43:04BUT YOU COULDN'T HAVE ALLIES
43:05COME ALONG AS PART OF THIS
43:08WESTERN WALL TO KEEP RUSSIA AT
43:09BAY.
43:09>> YOUR BOOK HAS A LOT OF GREAT
43:12REPORTING NUGGETS, AND ONE THAT
43:14STRUCK ME WAS GENERAL MARK
43:16MILLEY TRYING TO CONVINCE BIDEN
43:18NOT TO DO THE ABRUPT WITHDRAWAL
43:23FROM AFGHANISTAN.
43:24TELL ME ABOUT THAT DISCUSSION
43:26AND ABOUT THE FALLOUT FROM THE
43:30WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN THE
43:30WAY IT WAS HANDLED.
43:31>> MILLEY ALONG WITH A LOT OF
43:33OTHER GENERALS AT THE TIME WERE
43:35ADAMANT THAT THE U.S. SHOULD
43:37KEEP SOME PRESENCE IN
43:38AFGHANISTAN.
43:38THEY WERE ARGUING ROUGHLY
43:40BETWEEN 2,500 AND 3,500 TROOPS
43:42BECAUSE THEY WERE WORRIED THAT
43:43THE TALIBAN WOULD EVENTUALLY
43:44STORM TO POWER.
43:45AND MILLEY, WHO HAD COMMANDED IN
43:49AFGHANISTAN, HAS LOST, YOU KNOW,
43:51TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN, WAS
43:52TELLING BIDEN, LOOK, IF WE
43:53LEAVE, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WILL BE
43:55SENT BACK TO THE STONE AGE.
43:58THE EDUCATION FOR WOMEN WILL
43:59FALTER.
43:59THE DEMOCRATIC PROGRESS THAT HAD
44:01BEEN MADE IN THAT COUNTRY WILL
44:02GO AWAY.
44:03BUT BIDEN WAS LOOKING FOR A
44:05STRATEGY FROM THE PENTAGON AND
44:08OTHERS AS IF I AM TO COMMIT MORE
44:12TROOPS TO AFGHANISTAN, IF I'M TO
44:13CONTINUE THIS 20-YEAR WAR, WHAT
44:16DOES VICTORY LOOK LIKE?
44:18AND OVER FOUR MONTHS OF
44:21DISCUSSION, NO ONE COULD
44:22CONVINCE PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT
44:23STAYING IN THE WAR WAS A GOOD
44:24IDEA, THAT A VICTORY COULD BE
44:26ACHIEVED.
44:26SO HE MADE THE DECISION TO
44:28WITHDRAW.
44:28AND OF COURSE WE SAW THE CHAOS
44:30THAT ENSUED.
44:31BAKED IN WAS AN INTELLIGENCE
44:34ASSESSMENT SAID IT WOULD TAKE 18
44:36TO 24 MONTHS FOR THE TALIBAN TO
44:38TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.
44:44AND IT WAS ONLY A FEW MONTHS
44:46FROM THE DECISION IN APRIL.
44:47WE SAW 13 SERVICE MEMBERS KILLED
44:48DURING THE EVACUATION.
44:50WE SAW HUMANITARIAN STRIFE
44:52OUTSIDE THE AIRPORT IN KABUL.
44:53WE SAW THE HORRIFIC SCENES OF
44:55PEOPLE FALLING OUT OF PLANES.
44:57WE SAW AFGHAN ALLIES OF
44:58AMERICANS LEFT BEHIND.
44:59BUT WE ALSO SAW A PRETTY
45:02MIRACULOUS LOGISTICAL FEAT TO
45:03GET 120,000 OR SO PEOPLE OUT AS
45:05KABUL AND AFGHANISTAN WAS
45:07CRUMBLING.
45:07ON ONE HAND, YOU HAVE TO HOLD
45:09THAT, YES, AFGHANISTAN IS WORSE
45:10OFF BECAUSE OF THE DECISION TO
45:12WITHDRAW.
45:13YOU ALSO HAVE TO HOLD ON THE
45:14OTHER SIDE THE LOGISTICAL FEAT
45:15THAT IT TOOK TO GET AS MANY
45:17PEOPLE OUT DURING A TUMULTUOUS
45:19TIME AND CONSIDER THE STRATEGIC
45:21RAMIFICATION.
45:22WOULD IT MAKE SENSE FOR THE U.S.
45:23TO BE IN A WAR THAT NO ONE --
45:25FOR WHICH NO ONE COULD
45:27ARTICULATE A VISION OF VICTORY?
45:28BIDEN DIDN'T SEE IT.
45:30THAT'S WHY WE WERE OUT.
45:30>> YOU SAID IT WAS A GREAT
45:33LOGISTICAL FEAT TO GET EVERYBODY
45:34OUT, AND YET IF YOU SEE THE
45:37DISORGANIZATION, AND EVEN YOU
45:38WRITE ABOUT IT AS IF IT'S A BIT
45:40OF A HUBRIS TO THINK IT WOULD
45:42HAVE BEEN EASIER.
45:43SHOULDN'T PEOPLE WITH THIS MUCH
45:45KNOWLEDGE AND THIS MUCH
45:46INTELLIGENCE HAVE PREPARED MORE
45:47FOR THE WITHDRAWAL?
45:49>> WELL, THIS WAS ONE OF MY
45:52QUESTIONS IS DID NO ONE IN THESE
45:54MEETINGS THINK 18 TO 24 MONTHS A
45:56BIT TOO POSITIVE OF AN
45:58ASSESSMENT?
45:58WHAT THEY SAID WAS NOT REALLY.
45:59OF COURSE OVER TIME AS THE
46:01TALIBAN WAS SWEEPING THROUGH THE
46:03COUNTRY.
46:03THAT TIMELINE SHIFTED OR
46:05DECLINED AND SHRUNK.
46:06BUT THE DECISION WAS MADE, AND
46:08THE MILITARY WAS THINKING, LOOK,
46:09SPEED IS SAFETY.
46:10WE'VE GOT TO GET OUT AS QUICKLY
46:11AS POSSIBLE.
46:12SO THEY WERE ON A FASTER
46:13TIMELINE THAN EVEN THE WHITE
46:14HOUSE SUGGESTED.
46:15THE PEOPLE AT THE STATE
46:16DEPARTMENT THAT WERE THINKING,
46:17HEY, WE NEED TO REFORM THIS
46:19PROGRAM TO BRING THE AFGHAN
46:20ALLIES OF AMERICANS HOME, THEY
46:21DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME OR
46:23WHEREWITHAL TO DO IT BECAUSE
46:26THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE
46:28DIPLOMATS IN KABUL.
46:29SO IT WAS A MISS.
46:31WE CANNOT DENY THAT.
46:33IT WAS A MISS THAT THEY REALLY
46:34DIDN'T PREPARE FOR THE TALIBAN.
46:36THERE WAS ALWAYS PUBLIC
46:37REPORTING AS I NOTE IN THE BOOK
46:40ABOUT WHAT THE TALIBAN WAS
46:41PREPARING TO DO AND HOW QUICKLY
46:42THEY COULD DO IT.
46:43AND THERE WERE QUESTIONS ABOUT
46:46THE AFGHAN MILITARY'S ABILITY TO
46:48WITHSTAND THAT ONSLAUGHT.
46:49THERE ARE GENUINE QUESTIONS TO
46:51ASK OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
46:53OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY
46:54MISCALCULATED IN THINKING IT
46:57WOULD TAKE A LOT LONGER FOR THE
46:59TALIBAN TO DO WHAT THEY DID.
47:00AND I SHOULD NOTE, YOU KNOW,
47:02BIDEN TO THIS DAY BELIEVES IT
47:03WAS STILL THE RIGHT DECISION TO
47:04LEAVE.
47:05HE ASKED NO ONE TO RESIGN.
47:07NO ONE OFFERED TO RESIGN.
47:08AND IF YOU'LL ASK HIM TODAY,
47:12HE'LL STILL HOLD THOSE VIEWS.
47:13>> YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW STRONG
47:15BIDEN WAS IN COMING TO THE
47:17SUPPORT OF UKRAINE.
47:17YET YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT AN
47:19AWKWARD RELATIONSHIP HE HAD WITH
47:21PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
47:22EXPLAIN HOW THEY HAD TO BALANCE
47:23THAT.
47:24>> WE SORT OF ALREADY KNOW THAT
47:27BIDEN/ZELENSKYY DID NOT GET
47:28ALONG AND SEE EYE TO EYE IN THE
47:29RUN-UP TO THE INVASION.
47:30THE BOOK REVEALS THAT
47:32RELATIONSHIP WAS REALLY, REALLY
47:33BAD, SCREAMING MATCH BAD.
47:34AT CERTAIN POINTS, BIDEN WAS
47:37BASICALLY TELLING ZELENSKYY WHY
47:38DON'T YOU BELIEVE THE
47:38INTELLIGENCE WE'RE SHOWING AND
47:39THAT WE'RE SHOWING OUR ALLIES?
47:41THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING.
47:42YOU NEED TO PREPARE.
47:43RECALL THERE WERE MILITARY
47:45ASSESSMENTS, ONE OF MANY, BUT
47:46THE STARK ONE WAS THAT KYIV
47:48WOULD FALL WITHIN 72 HOURS.
47:49AND THROUGHOUT ALL THESE MONTHS
47:50OF BIDEN AND ZELENSKYY CHATTING,
47:53ZELENSKYY NEVER BELIEVED THAT
47:54THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
47:56HE BELIEVED THAT PUTIN WOULD BE
48:01TOO STUPID TO DO THAT.
48:04YOU DID HAVE BIDEN SAYING YOU'VE
48:06GOT TO START PROTECTING YOUR
48:07CAPITAL, YOUR COUNTRY.
48:08IN THE END, ZELENSKYY AND HIS
48:09MILITARY AND HIS TEAM WERE ABLE
48:11TO DEFEND KYIV AND WERE ABLE TO
48:13DEFEND MANY PARTS OF UKRAINE,
48:15AND NOTHING SHARPENS THE MIND
48:16LIKE SEEING RUSSIAN TANKS ROLL
48:18INTO YOUR NATION.
48:19BUT FOR MANY MONTHS, THE BIDEN
48:22ADMINISTRATION TODAY WOULD
48:22PROBABLY TELL YOU BEHIND CLOSED
48:23DOORS THAT, SURE, A LOT OF TIME
48:25WAS MISSED FOR PREPARATION FOR
48:27UKRAINE ALTHOUGH CRITICS WOULD
48:28NOTE THIS OF THE BIDEN
48:29ADMINISTRATION.
48:30THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD SAY
48:31THE U.S. SHOULD HAVE SENT
48:33WEAPONS A LOT SOONER TO UKRAINE
48:34TO PREPARE THEIR MILITARY FOR A
48:36GREATER DEFENSE AND PERHAPS
48:37SANCTION THE RUSSIANS EVEN
48:38BEFORE AN ATTACK.
48:38THIS IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE
48:40REASONS WHY ZELENSKYY WASN'T SO
48:41CONFIDENT IN THE AMERICAN
48:43ASSESSMENT BECAUSE HE WOULD TELL
48:44BIDEN IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THIS
48:45IS HAPPENING, WHY AREN'T YOU
48:49FLOODING MY MILITARY WITH
48:50WEAPONS?
48:50IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE AN
48:51INVASION IS TO COME, I DON'T SEE
48:53YOU GUYS PANICKING AS MUCH AS
48:54YOU SHOULD BE.
48:55>> AND WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO
48:57THAT?
48:57WHY WEREN'T WE?
48:58>> BECAUSE THE FEELING WAS THEY
49:00DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE PUTIN
49:02NECESSARILY A REASON TO
49:03ESCALATE.
49:03RECALL THAT DURING THAT PERIOD,
49:06THE U.S. AND THE WEST WERE
49:08NEGOTIATING WITH THE RUSSIANS IN
49:10GENUINELY GOOD FAITH.
49:10PUTIN WAS PUTTING OUT THESE
49:12ARGUMENTS THAT IT WAS BECAUSE OF
49:14NATO EXPANSION AND UKRAINE
49:16TILTING WESTWARD AS THE REASONS
49:17FOR WHY HE WAS CONSIDERING DOING
49:19THIS.
49:20THERE ARE SOME AHISTORICAL
49:21ISSUES THERE THAT ARE A LOT TO
49:22GET INTO.
49:23BUT THE U.S. SAID, FINE, IF
49:25THAT'S TRUE, LET'S TALK IT
49:27THROUGH.
49:27LET'S SIT AT THE TABLE AND NOT
49:28THE BATTLEFIELD.
49:29THAT WAS PART OF IT.
49:30TO THEN PUMP UKRAINE FULL OF
49:32WEAPONS MIGHT HAVE DAMAGED THAT
49:33DIPLOMATIC PROCESS.
49:34OBVIOUSLY IT DIDN'T WORK.
49:36PUTIN STILL INVADED, AND HE DID
49:38WHAT HE DID.
49:39BUT THAT WAS THE GENERAL BET IS
49:41THAT IF YOU HELP UKRAINE TOO
49:43SOON, IF YOU ARM THEM TOO SOON,
49:45THEN PUTIN'S GOING TO HAVE NO
49:48CHOICE BUT TO GO IN SOONER.
49:50>> AS WE SPEAK, ISRAEL, THE
49:52UNITED STATES, THE ARAB STATES
49:54ARE STRUGGLING IN THIS NOTION OF
49:56CAN WE GET A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA?
49:59AND ISRAEL SEEMS TO BE RESISTING
50:02WHAT IS GENERALLY BEEN THE
50:04CONSENSUS PUSHED BY THE
50:06ADMINISTRATION.
50:06HAS BIDEN'S HISTORY, HIS SORT OF
50:10HISTORY OVER THE YEARS IN THE
50:12MIDDLE EAST, HELPED HIM HERE, OR
50:14IS HE SOMEWHAT HANDICAPPED WHEN
50:16IT COMES TO DEALING WITH THE
50:18SITUATION IN GAZA AND TRYING TO
50:19GET A CEASE-FIRE?
50:20>> I THINK IT'S HELPED HIM, BUT
50:22HE'S NEVER REALLY FACED A
50:23SITUATION LIKE THIS.
50:25LET'S CONSIDER HAMAS' BRUTAL
50:27ATTACK ON OCTOBER 7th LED
50:30EFFECTIVELY THE ENTIRE NATION OF
50:31ISRAEL TO BACK A MILITARY
50:33CAMPAIGN TO ROOT THEM OUT OF
50:35GAZA.
50:35NETANYAHU IS NOT A POPULAR
50:36FIGURE, IS BEING SUPPORTED IN
50:38THAT CAMPAIGN.
50:39AND HIS FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT
50:40WANTS TO ROOT HAMAS OUT.
50:41AGAIN YOU'VE GOT THE PUBLIC
50:42BEHIND HIM.
50:43SO AS MUCH AS BIDEN KNOWS
50:45NETANYAHU, DEALS WITH HIM, THE
50:48DOMESTIC CONTEXT IN ISRAEL MAKES
50:49IT A LOT EASIER FOR ISRAEL TO
50:53REBUFF AMERICAN -- WHAT THE
50:59BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WOULD SAY
51:03SUPPORT -- THEY'RE TRYING TO
51:04HAVE IT BOTH WAYS BUT IT'S
51:05LEADING TO A LOT OF MESSAGING
51:07MUDDLE.
51:08AT THIS POINT IT'S VERY CLEAR
51:09THAT THEY ARE STRUGGLING TO GET
51:10ISRAEL TO DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY
51:12WOULD LIKE ISRAEL TO DO.
51:14SO THEY'RE TRYING TO FIND NEW
51:17WAYS TO GET NETANYAHU TO FOLLOW
51:20AN AMERICAN PLAYBOOK.
51:21>> THE U.S. PRETTY MUCH TRIED TO
51:24FOCUS ON CHINA AND OTHER THINGS
51:27AND TO TAKE A FOCUS OFF OF THE
51:29MIDDLE EAST AT THE BEGINNING OF
51:30THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
51:31JAKE SULLIVAN GAVE A SPEECH
51:33RIGHT BEFORE THE HAMAS TERRORIST
51:35ATTACK SAYING THAT THINGS HAVE
51:37BEEN QUIET THERE, AND WE CAN PUT
51:39IT ASIDE.
51:40IN RETROSPECT, DO YOU BELIEVE
51:41AND DO YOU THINK THEY BELIEVE IT
51:43MAY HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE NOT TO
51:45FOCUS MORE ON THE
51:48ISRAEL/PALESTINIAN SITUATION?
51:49>> I BET NOW THEY WOULD SAY
51:50THAT.
51:51BUT EVEN A FEW MONTHS BEFORE,
51:52THEY WOULDN'T HAVE.
51:53WE SHOULD NOTE THAT ONE OF THE
51:54BIG CRITICISMS OF THE BIDEN
51:56ADMINISTRATION IS THAT THEY
51:59SIGNIFICANTLY IGNORED THE
52:00ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN CONFLICT AND
52:01LEFT THAT TO FESTER DURING THEIR
52:03TIME IN OFFICE.
52:04I SHOULD NOTE IN THE MONTHS
52:05BEFORE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK,
52:06AS THE U.S. WAS WORKING WITH
52:08ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA TO HAVE
52:09A NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS, A
52:11KEY COMPONENT OF THAT WAS TO
52:13IMPROVE THE PALESTINIAN
52:14SITUATION, GIVE THEM A PATHWAY
52:15TO A STATE, ALLOW MORE
52:17HUMANITARIAN AID IN, GIVE THEM A
52:18SENSE OF BELONGING.
52:19AND THAT WAS PUSHED PRETTY
52:21STRONGLY BY THE U.S.
52:22THEY WOULD NOT ACCEPT -- THEY
52:23WOULD NOT ENDORSE A DEAL, A
52:26NORMALIZATION DEAL WITHOUT IT.
52:26BUT FOR MANY, THAT WAS FAR
52:28LITTLE TOO LATE.
52:29THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOCUSING
52:31ON THIS ISSUE FROM THE BEGINNING
52:32INSTEAD OF LETTING THAT WOUND
52:34FESTER FOR MANY YEARS.
52:35ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF BOTH --
52:36I SHOULD SAY THE TRUMP
52:37ADMINISTRATION AND THE BIDEN
52:39ADMINISTRATION IS THAT THEY DID
52:40THIS AS A BANK SHOT, RIGHT?
52:42THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T
52:42THINK ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN
52:43ISSUE WHEN THEY WERE DOING THE
52:45ABRAHAM -- THAT WAS WHOLLY
52:47IGNORED.
52:47WHILE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
52:49CONTINUED THE ABRAHAM ACCORD
52:51PUSH, THEY LEFT THE PALESTINIAN
52:52ISSUE FOR FAR TOO LATE, AND IT
52:54WAS A SIDE BIN.
52:56THE CRITICISM IS THEIR GOAL OF
52:57IF WE DO NORMALIZATION WITH ARAB
52:59STATES, IT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER
53:00TO HELP PALESTINIANS.
53:01WELL, THAT MAY HAVE BEEN TRUE
53:03OVER TIME.
53:04IT'S CERTAINLY NOT TRUE AFTER
53:05OCTOBER 7th.
53:06SO THAT BANK SHOT STRATEGY DID
53:07NOT WORK.
53:08>> YOU'RE JUST BACK FROM THE
53:11MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE A
53:12WEEK AGO.
53:12TELL ME WHAT THE MOOD WAS LIKE
53:14THERE BOTH ON UKRAINE AND U.S.
53:17FOREIGN POLICY IN GENERAL.
53:18>> AMAZINGLY GLOOMY.
53:20I EXPECTED -- I DIDN'T EXPECT
53:22HAPPINESS, RIGHT?
53:22IT'S A TOUGH PERIOD, AND OF
53:24COURSE THE NEWS OF ALEXEI
53:26NAVALNY'S DEATH OCCURRED IN THE
53:28EARLY DAYS, IN THE FIRST FEW
53:30HOURS OF THAT CONFERENCE.
53:31BUT I WAS EXPECTING AND MANY
53:33WERE EXPECTING THERE WOULD BE
53:34SOME SORT OF PLAN TO COME OUT OF
53:36THERE.
53:37AND EVERYONE FROM U.S.
53:38OFFICIALS, CONGRESSIONAL
53:39LEADERS, EUROPEAN OFFICIALS,
53:41OTHER OFFICIALS, THEY ALL LEFT
53:42WITH KIND OF A HANDS IN THE AIR
53:44GOING, NO ONE KNOWS WHAT TO DO.
53:46THERE WAS A SENSE THAT BASICALLY
53:49ONLY PLAN "A" AND THE ONLY PLAN
53:50IS TO GET SOMETHING THROUGH THE
53:52HOUSE.
53:52SO THE AMOUNT OF EUROPEAN
53:53OFFICIALS WHO ASKED ME WHAT A
53:56DISCHARGE PETITION IS WOULD
53:57ASTOUND YOU.
53:58THAT'S HOW CLOSE THEY'RE PAYING
54:00ATTENTION.
54:00ONE THING I HEARD FROM SENATOR
54:02SHELDON WHITEHOUSE AND SENATOR
54:05BRIAN SCHATZ.
54:06THEY TOOK ABOUT A STORY
54:09ZELENSKYY TOLD THEM, A SOLDIER
54:12TAKING ARTILLERY FIRE BUT
54:14SCROLLING ON HIS PHONE THAT ANY
54:16PACKAGE WOULD PASS THE HOUSE.
54:18THAT'S HOW GLOOMY THE PICTURE
54:19IS.
54:19NO ONE COULD NECESSARILY
54:21ARTICULATE A WAY FORWARD.
54:23SO IF YOU'RE TEAM BIDEN, YOU'RE
54:24SEEING ONE OF YOUR SIGNATURE
54:26FOREIGN POLICY ACHIEVEMENTS,
54:27LET'S SAY, THE DEFENSE OF
54:29UKRAINE, CRUMBLE BEFORE YOUR
54:30EYES.
54:31>> ALEX WARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH
54:32FOR JOINING US.
54:33APPRECIATE IT.
54:34>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
54:37>>> AND WE HEARD MUCH OF THE
54:40SAME IN UKRAINE.
54:40>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A YOUNG
54:42WOMAN FROM STATEN ISLAND, NEW
54:44YORK, FLIES PAST BARRIERS AND
54:46MAKES A PLACE FOR HERSELF IN
54:48AVIATION HISTORY.
54:48CA MORA FREELAND IS A
54:5117-YEAR-OLD PILOT AND NOW SHE'S
54:53ONE OF THE YOUNGEST BLACK
54:55AVIATORS IN THE UNITED STATES.
54:56SHE JUST NAILED HER PRIVATE
55:00LICENSE.
55:01[ APPLAUSE ]
55:04PASSING WHAT SHE CALLS THE
55:05BIGGEST TEST OF HER LIFE.
55:07HERE'S WHAT KAMORA TOLD OUR
55:10AFFILIATE, WABC IN NEW YORK.
55:12>> DEFINITELY AMAZING.
55:13I'M A PART OF THE CHANGE THAT'S
55:15DEFINITELY NEEDED, AND, YEAH,
55:17LIKE I WANT OTHER LITTLE BLACK
55:18GIRLS TO DO THE SAME.
55:21>> KIMORA FLIES OFF TO SPELMAN
55:24COLLEGE IN THE FALL.
55:25IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:27COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY
55:29NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR
55:31NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:33THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND
55:36GOODBYE FROM LONDON.
55:38♪♪
55:51>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE
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56:03AND MICKEY STRAUS.
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56:08THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO
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56:31THANK YOU.
56:34>> Announcer: YOU'RE WATCHING
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