Technology Companies in the U.S.-China Competition
Can technology companies remain politically neutral in times of conflict?
In this episode of "Zoom In Zoom Out," TaiwanPlus reporter Joyce Tseng sits down with Jacob Helberg, a commissioner of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission. We first zoom in on military uses of artificial intelligence before zooming out to look at how technology intersects with geopolitics.
In this episode of "Zoom In Zoom Out," TaiwanPlus reporter Joyce Tseng sits down with Jacob Helberg, a commissioner of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission. We first zoom in on military uses of artificial intelligence before zooming out to look at how technology intersects with geopolitics.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 Welcome to Zoom In Zoom Out,
00:14 your global look at news from here in Taiwan and the region.
00:18 I'm Joyce Sun.
00:20 The US and China have been locked in fierce competition
00:24 and at the center of it is a race for tech supremacy.
00:27 Semiconductors are a well-covered aspect of this battle,
00:31 but other innovations like AI play a big part in this too.
00:35 To discuss the geopolitics of technology,
00:38 I spoke with Jacob Helberg,
00:40 a commissioner at the US-China Economic
00:42 and Security Review Commission.
00:44 He's also a senior policy advisor at Palantir,
00:48 a software company whose customers range
00:50 from public health institutes to the US Army.
00:53 For this interview, we began by zooming in on AI's role
00:57 in the US-China rivalry.
00:59 Here is the response from Jacob.
01:02 AI is really at the center of that rivalry.
01:04 If you think about the fact that the last time
01:06 the world experienced a major global war,
01:09 that was about 80 years ago.
01:11 80 years is the same amount of time that elapsed
01:14 between the US Civil War and World War II.
01:17 And just think about how different the world was
01:19 between those two worlds.
01:22 Those two wars were completely different.
01:24 And so I'm convinced that if another global war,
01:28 World War II erupt, it would look drastically different
01:32 than the last one.
01:33 And I worry that our policy makers are still very focused
01:37 on conventional methods.
01:39 One of the things that we're seeing is China is racing
01:42 to integrate AI at every layer of the kill chain.
01:46 We're already seeing AI being used for targeting.
01:49 We're seeing AI being integrated
01:53 to create recommendation engines
01:55 for battlefield decision makers.
01:57 But it's gonna be all-encompassing
01:59 and it's gonna dramatically change the face of warfare.
02:03 - With each, the US and China's tech capabilities
02:07 at the moment, what are you most worried about there?
02:10 - Well, there's a fundamental trade-off
02:12 that we're seeing in military AI particularly.
02:17 There's a trade-off between speed and human control.
02:21 In democracies, we're very comfortable
02:24 with humans being in the loop.
02:26 And we actually want humans to have input
02:29 on making the final call, pressing the button
02:34 when an attack is launched.
02:36 In autocracies, it's a much lower trust environment.
02:40 You're seeing that manifest itself
02:41 when Xi Jinping disappears his foreign minister,
02:44 when he disappears Hu Jintao at an annual gathering.
02:49 It's lower trust.
02:50 And so they are more likely to bias
02:53 in favor of more automated decision-making.
02:56 What that means is they are likely to move very fast,
02:59 but when you automate more things,
03:02 it also creates a higher degree of risk to make mistakes
03:05 because ultimately you're putting machines in control
03:08 and that means that you have less oversight.
03:10 And so right now in peacetime,
03:13 I think our policymakers are very much skewing
03:16 in favor of a lot of human oversight,
03:18 which is completely safe and understandable.
03:20 I think it's important to have the debate
03:23 about where we wanna land because ultimately
03:25 when you are at war, new pressures come in.
03:28 You have to respond to events in real time.
03:31 And if you're responding to an adversary
03:33 that's moving three times as fast as you,
03:36 you're gonna be under a lot of pressure
03:38 to move a lot of things over to automation.
03:41 - In your work in Washington,
03:42 what is your most immediate goal in your law being for AI?
03:47 - Yeah, I think we need national security
03:51 to be a fundamental organizing principle
03:54 in the debate around AI.
03:56 I think too much of the AI debate has focused
03:59 on a abstract concept of safety
04:02 that has been too disconnected from national security.
04:08 The reality is we don't live in a silo.
04:10 We live in a broad world where we have friends
04:13 and we have adversaries.
04:15 One of those adversaries is the People's Republic of China
04:18 that is racing ahead to integrate AI
04:21 into all of its systems.
04:24 They are all in from AI on the software side
04:28 to on the robotics side.
04:30 They announced that they wanna mass produce humanoids
04:32 by 2025.
04:33 And the decisions that we make necessarily
04:38 have to be based off of what we're seeing them do
04:42 on the other side because we have to stay competitive.
04:45 And so making sure that on the one hand,
04:48 we have a technology agenda that allows us
04:52 and a policy agenda that allows us to move
04:54 as fast as possible in the development
04:56 of artificial intelligence to maintain
04:58 and hopefully expand our lead,
05:01 while at the same time addressing and closing the loopholes
05:04 that our adversaries have exploited
05:07 that have allowed them to get access through back doors
05:10 to our most sensitive technologies.
05:12 - I'm curious about where Taiwan fits into this.
05:15 Obviously with chips, Taiwan is in this leading position.
05:20 The US is also trying to court Taiwanese chip makers
05:24 to American soil.
05:25 Other East Asian countries, Korea, Japan
05:27 are also looped into this US-China rivalry in tech.
05:31 Could you talk a little bit about how these other countries
05:35 fit into the picture when you're discussing these issues?
05:39 - I think two elements that really bind Silicon Valley
05:44 and Taiwan together in a close way is on the one hand,
05:49 I think a lot of people in Silicon Valley
05:51 who are animated by a passion for free speech
05:55 and democratic values feel genuinely passionate
05:59 to stand with Taiwan in its desire to remain free and open.
06:04 On the other hand, Silicon Valley is a world leader
06:09 in software, but it lacks the kind of hardware
06:14 manufacturing capacity that Taiwan has so much expertise in.
06:18 Silicon Valley can help the Taiwanese government
06:20 modernize and undertake important efforts
06:23 to modernize its defenses and think through the role
06:26 of emerging technologies and defense.
06:30 By the same token, Taiwan has undertaken
06:33 a lot of heavy lift already for its own security
06:36 to think through how can Taiwan have supply chains
06:41 that are free of CCP components.
06:44 And then lastly, as you pointed out earlier,
06:48 there's obviously a great deal of focus
06:51 on Taiwan's chips ecosystem.
06:54 It's no secret that in the US, we are absolutely seeing
06:59 a race in the development of artificial intelligence.
07:02 Within the US, there is a race between a number of companies
07:05 but ultimately there's a broader race
07:08 between the US and China.
07:10 And the access to the most advanced chips
07:13 is the fuel for that race.
07:16 And so making sure that Taiwan and Silicon Valley
07:21 work closely together to ensure that American companies
07:25 have access to the chips that they need
07:28 in order to move as fast as they can
07:31 is obviously something that's incredibly important as well.
07:35 (electronic music)
07:37 - And if I can, I guess, zoom out a little bit here,
07:40 you said before tech companies can't be neutral anymore.
07:45 What do you see for the future of tech's role in geopolitics
07:49 as you're saying it's having more of a role to play
07:53 in policymaking, things like that?
07:55 - Yeah, I think for too long,
07:58 technology companies have tried to be Switzerland
08:00 and what we're seeing is fundamentally
08:03 the realities of the world are such that
08:06 they can't be neutral between the US and China.
08:09 In China, you fundamentally have
08:11 a civil military fusion regime
08:13 that completely erases the distinction
08:17 between the private and the public sector.
08:20 And so it's very hard for technologies
08:23 to comply with two legal systems
08:25 that are fundamentally at odds and contradict each other.
08:28 You can't protect personal privacy in America
08:31 if ultimately you are answerable
08:34 to the Chinese Communist Party
08:36 that is predicated on total obedience
08:39 with the diktats from the CCP,
08:41 including handing over whatever information the CCP requests.
08:45 And so I do think we can call it de-risking,
08:49 we can call it a banana,
08:51 but fundamentally what we're talking about
08:53 is decoupling to a certain extent in the technology world
08:58 and I think that's a healthy thing.
09:00 It's a really big world out there
09:02 and there's more to this world than just China.
09:05 There's incredibly exciting opportunities here in Taiwan,
09:08 there are great opportunities in India
09:11 and so many different emerging markets
09:13 and I hope that our very industrious CEOs
09:16 in Silicon Valley see that and reach out
09:18 to so many of these exciting markets
09:22 that have emerging technology ecosystems,
09:25 an incredibly talented bench of engineers
09:29 and seize those opportunities.
09:31 - Taiwan, with social networks,
09:34 Taiwan was subject to unprecedented disinformation
09:37 during the election,
09:39 this is also a very important election year just globally
09:42 and also for the US.
09:44 Where do you see this trend
09:47 in terms of weaponizing information going
09:50 and what can be done about it?
09:53 - Part of what we're seeing is gray zone warfare
09:57 has become a pervasive and defining feature
10:00 of international politics
10:02 because new technologies have made it possible
10:06 for governments to compete and wage political warfare
10:10 in ways that are highly potent
10:12 below the conventional threshold of war.
10:15 It is hard to talk about Chinese election interference
10:19 and not talk about TikTok.
10:21 TikTok is completely controlled
10:23 by the Chinese Communist Party,
10:25 they control the algorithm, they flood the platform
10:28 with fake accounts to fire hose the platform
10:31 with their propaganda, pro-CCP propaganda.
10:35 And so ultimately, one of the fundamental dilemmas
10:39 that I see elected officials in the US
10:42 and around the world struggle with on the TikTok issue
10:45 is everyone knows it's a national security threat,
10:49 everyone understands it's totally controlled
10:51 by the Chinese Communist Party,
10:53 but they struggle with, you know,
10:55 are we gonna lose a generation of young people
10:57 if we ban it?
10:59 Are we losing an ability to reach out to young voters
11:02 and what if members of the opposing party
11:05 use TikTok in a more effective way
11:07 and they're reaching out to those voters?
11:09 Here's what I have to say to those elected officials
11:12 is if you are an elected official
11:15 that is concerned about the security of your country
11:17 and if you're critical of China,
11:19 you will not get promoted on TikTok.
11:23 If you're seeing young people move away from your party,
11:28 it's not because you're not reaching out to them on TikTok
11:31 and so my advice to policymakers is, you know,
11:35 focus on the long-term national security risks.
11:39 Your country will be much safer
11:41 if you take action on this now rather than wait.
11:44 India did it a few years ago.
11:45 They're growing at 9%, they're doing great
11:48 and I think democracy should do the right thing,
11:52 should do what's right for their countries
11:54 and ultimately remove CCP control from TikTok.
11:59 - China's recent Boao Forum,
12:01 they're now reiterating this, you know,
12:04 China's open to do business
12:07 and since APEC, Xi Jinping meeting
12:10 with all the CEOs in San Francisco,
12:12 what do you make of this messaging?
12:15 Does that affect your efforts in Washington?
12:18 - Yeah, so my, look, what I would say is
12:22 it's very nice that Xi Jinping and his diplomats
12:25 are having a much softer approach.
12:28 I think everyone remembers very clearly
12:30 when all of these Chinese diplomats
12:33 were playing warrior wolf diplomacy,
12:36 you know, just three years ago,
12:38 particularly during COVID
12:41 and so what I would tell every member
12:43 of the business community is,
12:44 these diplomats are warrior wolves in sheep's clothing.
12:48 They, you know, are approaching them and playing nice
12:52 simply because they need foreign investment
12:54 to prop up their economy,
12:56 which is facing substantial headwinds
12:59 and ultimately, I think they need to live
13:00 with the consequences of their policy decisions.
13:03 I mean, they have waged aggression campaigns against India,
13:07 against the Philippines, against Taiwan,
13:10 unprecedented campaign to try to interfere
13:13 in Taiwan's election, intimidate Taiwanese officials.
13:17 So ultimately, I would say,
13:19 you're not gonna see, if you're a business person
13:22 trying to make a decision,
13:23 you're not gonna see an easing of tensions
13:26 between the US and China, regardless of who's president
13:30 and so, you know, I would encourage our members
13:33 of our fantastic business community
13:35 to look for other opportunities elsewhere
13:37 in emerging markets like Taiwan, like India,
13:41 Vietnam and so many other places.
13:43 - Thank you so much, Jacob.
13:45 - Thank you, no, it's great, great to do this.
13:47 Thank you, I really appreciate it.
13:49 (upbeat music)
13:51 - That was Jacob Helberg,
13:59 Senior Policy Advisor at Palantir
14:02 and a Commissioner at the US-China Economic
14:05 and Security Review Commission.
14:07 And this has been Zoom In Zoom Out.
14:09 For more stories from Taiwan Plus News,
14:11 please follow us on social media.
14:13 Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time.
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