BREAKING NEWS: Columbia Daily Spectator EIC: This Is What The Media Is Missing About Campus Protests
On "Forbes Newsroom," Isabella Ramírez, Editor-in-Chief and President of the Columbia Daily Spectator, discussed the ongoing protests on her campus, the pro-Palestinian encampments, the media coverage of the demonstrations, how students are feeling, and more.
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NewsTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:03 - Hi everybody, I'm Brittany Lewis with Forbes Breaking News.
00:06 Joining me now is Isabella Ramirez,
00:08 President and Editor-in-Chief of the Columbia Daily Spectator.
00:11 Isabella, thank you so much for joining me.
00:13 - Yeah, hello, nice to be here.
00:15 - As you know very well, you're a Columbia junior,
00:19 Columbia University has garnered national attention
00:22 over their on-campus protests
00:25 and protests right off the campus.
00:27 Can you tell us from your perspective,
00:29 being on campus, what are you seeing?
00:31 - Yeah, absolutely.
00:34 The past few days have of course been
00:36 an incredibly emotional time for the Columbia community.
00:40 What truly has transpired is of course,
00:43 really beginning with the congressional hearing
00:46 of Shafiq before Congress,
00:48 where that same morning that Shafiq was slated
00:53 to show up in DC and actually myself
00:57 and part members of my team were there in DC,
01:00 student protesters had organized to set up an encampment
01:06 at literally four in the morning,
01:08 so in the middle of the night/the morning.
01:11 And I think what really has spurred out of that,
01:17 out of the sort of clashing and intermix and interplay
01:21 of these very public things that are happening on our campus
01:26 which all eyes were on Shafiq in DC,
01:29 but then those eyes were very quickly diverted
01:32 to what was happening right here in New York City,
01:34 right here on her campus while she was away.
01:37 And then of course, as she came back,
01:39 I think this has been really the culmination
01:44 of since October 7th, a lot of tension on campus,
01:47 of course, a lot of protests, a lot of back and forth
01:50 between the university, the students, the faculty,
01:53 and then also among those groups,
01:55 students who disagree with each other, faculty, et cetera.
02:00 But I think what we've truly seen
02:03 in this phenomenon right now
02:04 is a pent up frustration from many, many groups, right?
02:09 It didn't necessarily, there are some senses
02:12 in which this came out of nowhere,
02:14 or at least it was a surprise and it was intended to be so,
02:17 right, such a large showing of protests,
02:21 but in some senses, it's not a surprise.
02:23 And so how I kind of look at those two things
02:26 is actually very much before the start of the encampment,
02:31 there was actually like a drop in protest activity.
02:36 It was still active, but not as much as we saw
02:39 in the very beginning stages of university
02:42 of what our campus really looked like.
02:44 And part of that had to do with the crackdown
02:46 on disciplinary action and policies
02:48 that the university was taking on some of these protests.
02:52 But this has been kind of like a resurgence,
02:55 especially for sort of the pro-Palestinian students
02:57 on our campus in terms of coming together
03:00 and organizing this very massive, massive showing,
03:03 which has then kind of inspired and invited
03:07 these outside protests to come outside of our gates
03:10 and sort of join in this really big, now global,
03:13 arguably movement across universities and solidarity
03:16 sort of with what's happening on campus.
03:19 But of course, at the same time,
03:21 there are these underlying tensions
03:23 that were crucial to the point of the hearing, right?
03:26 What is Columbia doing to address antisemitism?
03:28 How is Columbia juggling this act of how do we preserve
03:32 free speech on our campus and free expression,
03:34 along with the academic expression of faculty,
03:37 which is a very big topic in the congressional hearing,
03:40 along with the safety concerns that are arising
03:42 out of Jewish students and faculty who are on our campus,
03:45 who are navigating this space
03:47 in sometimes very different ways,
03:49 but for some of them are afraid of certain sides
03:54 of this campus or afraid of navigating outdoor protests
03:59 and have felt a sense of urgency from the university
04:02 or wanted to compel the university
04:05 to feel more urgent about this issue.
04:08 And so really what this is a culmination of
04:12 is months and months of building and building tensions.
04:17 Obviously this political power that had entered this arena
04:21 for Columbia, right?
04:22 Putting Congress, putting Columbia on the map,
04:25 like very purposely singling us out
04:27 as they did with Harvard, Penn and MIT,
04:30 of course brought this all sort of into one really big mix
04:34 that it became or it has become,
04:37 not just about the one experiences of this university
04:42 in New York City, this Ivy League institution,
04:47 but also a microcosm of what is happening
04:50 at American universities across the nation,
04:52 but also what is happening at large
04:54 in terms of our political conversations
04:56 regarding antisemitism, free speech,
05:00 the right to protest
05:01 and all of these sort of intermixing things.
05:03 So I really do see this as it has been building over time
05:08 and in a lot of senses we could have seen
05:10 where it was building to.
05:11 Of course, maybe we couldn't have anticipated
05:14 the sheer scale, but it was clear
05:17 that there was going to be some flashpoint
05:20 and that it was coming our way.
05:22 And I think the congressional heroing
05:25 certainly propelled that way faster,
05:27 maybe on a timeline that was very quick,
05:29 but also just the nature of the fact
05:31 that the semester is ending.
05:33 This is the last time to really force students
05:36 to try to confront these issues.
05:39 And as we've seen, they're doing it
05:42 in an incredibly public and expansive manner.
05:46 - So it sounds like from what you're saying,
05:50 and your team has done a great job of reporting,
05:52 things really reached a boiling point last week
05:55 and they continue to just be,
05:58 and it continues that way throughout this week.
06:00 And I am curious, your team has been on the ground
06:03 inside Columbia's campus,
06:05 talking to the protesters inside the encampment.
06:08 What do they want, A, and B,
06:10 what is the difference between the protest
06:13 inside the campus and the one right outside of the gates?
06:16 - Yeah, those super great questions.
06:18 I think for the first one,
06:20 their demands have been very explicit.
06:23 From the moment we reported it,
06:25 we broke the story at five in the morning,
06:28 it was clear that they told us
06:30 and that their message is we are not leaving,
06:35 at least not voluntarily,
06:37 until our demand, very specifically for divestment
06:42 from Columbia, from companies with potential ties to Israel
06:47 until Columbia makes that decision
06:50 and also provides us with the financial transparency
06:53 to be able to evaluate their success in that.
06:57 And so a lot of this has boiled down
07:00 to very explicit financial and tangible,
07:03 sort of what they've identified to be tangible ties
07:07 between the university and Israel.
07:10 And that also expands kind of beyond divestment as well,
07:13 as the university does have programs
07:15 hosted in Tel Aviv, a new global center
07:18 that was actually announced, I believe a year ago
07:21 and was very controversial at the time of its announcement.
07:23 And so it's even more so at the time that we're in now.
07:27 And so what people have identified
07:30 is are these very explicit
07:32 or what they define to be these very explicit ties
07:34 between the university and Israel
07:36 and what they're demanding is a severance of those ties.
07:39 And I think, but what is central
07:41 is truly the financial aspect, the BDS, right?
07:44 The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions List,
07:47 divesting from companies that are listed on that list
07:51 and also any other sort of possible ties
07:54 to weapons manufacturers, military applications.
07:57 And so that has really been the central demand.
08:01 And like I said, they have committed to not leaving
08:05 until those demands are met.
08:09 And so there are ongoing negotiations actually at this time
08:12 between the administration and the student organizers.
08:15 Shafiq actually alluded to it in a recent statement
08:17 that was on Monday about, you know,
08:21 these not an insight into what these negotiations
08:25 might look like moving forward.
08:26 Although we still don't have quite big ideas
08:29 to like, what is the reconciliation point here
08:32 or where do we come to with this?
08:35 But we know that there is active conversation
08:38 between those parties,
08:40 but also that that conversation is I'm sure very tense.
08:44 And so to your second question,
08:46 which is the difference between these off-campus
08:48 and on-campus groups or protests.
08:51 I think that has been like an incredibly
08:53 important distinction that we have really tried
08:57 very hard to make at Spectator,
09:00 not only because of the importance
09:01 that that holds for our community,
09:03 but also the transparency and for the truth
09:05 and the fact telling.
09:06 It is very clear to make the difference between
09:11 what is an affiliate led protest,
09:13 led by the student organizers here
09:14 who have been leading protests for the past several months
09:17 versus the protests that are coming from outside
09:20 from other organizations that are in solidarity
09:22 with these students,
09:23 but are not necessarily affiliated
09:25 at all with the university.
09:26 And so also the aspect of sort of control looks different.
09:31 Like in fact, the encampment has a set of community
09:35 guidelines that it follows.
09:36 It sort of, you actually can walk in
09:38 and there's this like kind of banner
09:40 that has a list of everything
09:41 that the encampment follows by.
09:43 And they've also been publicizing that online,
09:45 but you can see that there is actually
09:48 kind of an interesting community being formed
09:51 like via this encampment.
09:52 It's not taking the form of a typical protest.
09:56 Of course, there's protest activity
09:58 and there are certainly they are protesters.
10:00 Like that is an accurate, I think, description.
10:03 But at the same time, the people involved,
10:06 it looks so different day to day.
10:08 We're seeing like pretty scheduled programming
10:11 occurring in this encampment from teach-ins
10:14 to movie screenings to yesterday
10:17 for the commencement of Passover,
10:19 a Seder that was held inside the encampment
10:23 specifically for Jewish students.
10:24 And so there are these incredibly interesting dynamics
10:27 that are occurring and that are taking place
10:29 inside this encampment.
10:31 But once the moment you step out of that,
10:33 those community guidelines, right?
10:35 These like set of sort of rules
10:36 that they're promising to abide by
10:39 as like a miniature community are kind of not,
10:43 they're not at all applicable
10:45 to sort of what's happening outside.
10:47 And so I think a lot of the incidents
10:49 that people have pointed to, right?
10:50 Of incidents of pretty blatant antisemitism,
10:54 specifically some that have been publicized recently
10:57 about students being told, you know, pretty violent rhetoric,
11:01 being told to go back to Poland,
11:02 these terminologies, vocations of the Holocaust, right?
11:07 These incredibly antisemitic tropes,
11:08 a lot of which have been happening outside the gates
11:12 in a place that there lacks,
11:14 there's a lack of necessarily like control
11:17 both on behalf of the students,
11:18 but also on behalf of the administration, right?
11:21 As soon as you step outside that campus gate,
11:24 you are in now NYPD territory.
11:26 You're no longer in sort of campus and policy territory.
11:31 So that's where it gets really, really wishy-washy, right?
11:34 So what do you do when you have students,
11:36 Jewish students who are being targeted,
11:38 are being told things off campus,
11:41 where it's the jurisdiction of the university
11:44 to protect those students,
11:46 but it's not the jurisdiction to discipline those
11:49 who are unaffiliated with the university for those actions.
11:52 And there have been quite several arrests and other things
11:55 not often related to these antisemitic incidents at all
11:58 related to sort of just protest activity.
12:00 But I think that's a really big pain point right now
12:03 is like, how do we navigate these off-campus protests
12:07 that are inevitably have been brought by the encampment
12:10 or have been brought as an inspiration of the encampment,
12:12 but are ultimately very different things.
12:14 And that's also not to necessarily diminish the idea
12:17 that there have been incidents
12:18 that have also happened on campus.
12:21 It is just more so crucial to make differentiation
12:23 as to when and where they're happening,
12:26 who they're affecting, who is being involved
12:29 and really trying as best as possible as reporters,
12:32 as media to identify the very explicit actors
12:34 involved in this, who is responsible,
12:36 who is accountable and who is affected
12:39 and why does it matter?
12:40 And whether it happens off campus or on campus,
12:42 it absolutely matters.
12:43 It does matter that these students
12:45 are being impacted in this way.
12:46 But the question remains of,
12:49 there is a limitation sometimes
12:51 to what the administration can do
12:53 and not do.
12:55 And it's a really weird dynamic too,
12:57 because people feel within the campus
12:59 that the university has overexerted
13:01 and outside the campus has underexerted.
13:03 So it's sort of like, where is the middle ground there?
13:06 - Can you quantify just how many students
13:10 are involved in this encampment,
13:12 involved in the demonstrations?
13:14 And overall, what is the temperament on the campus?
13:17 Because you're having Jewish students say,
13:20 "Hey, I don't feel safe at this university
13:23 that I pay for, that I call my school."
13:26 - Right.
13:28 I mean, I definitely think in terms of climate,
13:31 people have such different temperature checks
13:34 on what that looks like.
13:35 I think that if you were to ask
13:38 many of the pro-Palestinian protesters that we speak to,
13:41 what they would describe as something very peaceful,
13:44 very community oriented,
13:46 very much focused on, yes,
13:48 it is a very visible and public demand
13:52 against the university,
13:53 but I think that's what they see it as.
13:55 I think that they very explicitly see it
13:58 as a student versus administration issue,
14:01 that there is a tension with the administration
14:03 that they're attempting to amend.
14:06 And of course, other external people are involved now,
14:09 students, faculty, et cetera.
14:11 But I think that's sort of where the focus for them lies.
14:15 And then there are other students on campus
14:17 who have been expressing to us
14:18 that just the sheer nature of navigating campus,
14:22 seeing the encampment, seeing the activity outside
14:25 is incredibly distressing to them.
14:27 And so it's so interesting to see such opposing accounts
14:32 of what is happening.
14:36 And I think even in our reporting,
14:38 it's really hard to try to capture
14:41 like some sort of quote, middle ground,
14:44 because I don't necessarily think that that quite exists.
14:46 Like I don't think that that person,
14:47 one person's characterization is wholly wrong
14:50 and the other person's characterization is wholly right.
14:52 I think there's a kind of a little bit of everything.
14:55 I think that there is at the same time
14:56 that there could be a potential for this encampment
15:00 to represent for a lot of people, a community space,
15:03 a sort of reclamation of power in some instances,
15:07 this idea that the university has had power over us
15:09 for a long time.
15:10 And now we have the most significant disruption
15:13 that has happened on our campus since October 7th
15:15 that is impeding the university from doing its functions,
15:18 from setting up for graduation, for commencement,
15:20 from doing a lot of the things that it's intending to do.
15:23 Our classes have shifted online.
15:25 It is clearly a very significant disruption
15:28 of all activity on our campus.
15:30 And so I think that is obviously intentional,
15:34 but I think a lot of where that viewpoint there
15:37 is that could both be true
15:40 and that there's also a community being formed
15:42 at this encampment.
15:43 And then it can also be true
15:45 that there are characterizations from other students
15:48 that they are not feeling safe.
15:49 And we've heard it from also not just Jewish students
15:52 and Israeli students,
15:55 but also from the leaders at this campus, right?
15:58 From the head of Halal, the head of Shabbat,
16:01 the head of many different organizations here
16:04 that are dedicated to Jewish student life
16:07 are saying the same thing.
16:08 And I think, but ultimately an interesting unifying thread
16:12 in all of this is, okay, if this is all true,
16:16 where are they pointing to?
16:17 And it does seem that the bottom line is still
16:20 when the Jewish student leaders
16:22 or Jewish leaders on our campus,
16:24 the rabbis, the other executives are saying,
16:28 hey, this campus is not safe for students.
16:31 They're often pointing to administration directly.
16:34 - Isabella, you're in a really interesting position
16:38 right now because not only are you a student at Columbia,
16:41 you are the editor in chief of the main media
16:44 covering this story around the clock.
16:47 So when you look at national media
16:49 compared to what you're covering, what you're seeing,
16:51 what your reporters are gathering,
16:53 what do you think,
16:54 where do you think the media is getting it wrong?
16:57 - Right, I've been asked this question quite a bit
16:59 and I think overall what I truly see is that,
17:04 look, for us as student journalists,
17:08 we occupy such an interesting position for ourselves
17:10 where we live and eat and sleep in the same community
17:15 that we report on.
17:16 And that's an incredibly unique feat
17:18 and that's a feat of student journalism,
17:20 but it's also local journalism, right?
17:22 That's what we've adopted to be
17:23 in our kind of small community.
17:26 And so what I think is we have a certain historical
17:30 and contextual understanding
17:33 of what has been happening on our campus
17:35 that is very different.
17:37 When I report on the people that I report on,
17:40 whether it is in a,
17:41 we're reporting on incidences
17:44 that are incredibly emotional, intense,
17:47 and hard to write about and report on,
17:49 or it's about the community performances
17:52 that were put on at the encampment.
17:54 We are reporting on our peers ultimately, right?
17:57 These are people that we actively engage with
17:59 in dialogue beyond Spectator
18:01 that we're constantly in communication with.
18:04 And I always caution against sort of,
18:06 sometimes I see my own sort of campus represented in media
18:11 and it's really hard because I see it
18:14 and I see it so closely as a student journalist.
18:17 I know what is, I often know what is wrong here.
18:20 I truly know this place pretty inside and out
18:23 and so do many of our journalists here.
18:25 At the same time, as a student here,
18:29 I know the people that are here.
18:31 I know the scholars that I look up to
18:33 and the professors who have been crucial
18:35 in my shaping as a journalist, as a just a student,
18:38 the friends that I have here, the peers that I have,
18:41 I know the community at large
18:43 and you know what's also really important,
18:45 I know what Columbia before this.
18:48 And I think that is so critical to this understanding
18:52 is I don't think Columbia can change like that overnight.
18:56 Like I think that we are in placed in the limelight,
19:00 obviously, but just in the center of something so tense
19:03 for the entire world, right?
19:05 You know, how can you expect 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds
19:10 to be trying to understand what is happening
19:13 in such a time where not even our politicians
19:17 and our national outlets understand
19:18 what is happening to the fullest degree.
19:20 Like we are very much processing as we're learning,
19:23 as we're reporting, as it's unfolding.
19:25 And so I think it's a very different angle
19:28 to be an outside outlet kind of parachuting
19:31 into some extent sometimes to try to understand
19:34 what's happening at this exact moment in time.
19:36 And I also think not only with that,
19:39 but as a spectator, as a campus organization,
19:44 we are here no matter whether Columbia's
19:46 in national news or not.
19:48 And that is also really critical.
19:50 We are a pillar and here for accountability
19:52 and all the things that we stand for,
19:53 whether or not we're in the national media,
19:56 or we are just reporting on sort of the day-to-day
19:59 and the sort of normalcy that, you know,
20:02 the normal student life experience
20:04 or the faculty experience.
20:05 And I think that is what makes our coverage
20:10 obviously so much more in depth, right?
20:14 We're not picking up the biggest thing
20:16 that's coming out of Columbia that day.
20:18 We're picking up every single thing
20:19 that's coming out of Columbia that day
20:21 from the small decisions that were made,
20:24 you know, from Shafiq or the encampment
20:26 or from other parties surrounding,
20:28 from statements that are being made
20:29 from student organizations.
20:31 Of course, you know, we might pick up
20:32 almost every statement or at least
20:34 as many significant statements as we can,
20:36 but maybe other outlets and reasonably so,
20:39 I understand that position.
20:40 I'm someone who also, you know,
20:43 enjoys like media and plans to work in the media.
20:46 So I think that it's not even necessarily a critique
20:50 of the industry at large necessarily,
20:54 but rather how, you know,
20:56 just there's so many factors to this,
20:58 but I think just our ability to be able to report
21:00 on every single development,
21:03 whether or not it is the biggest development of that day
21:05 is really important to our community
21:07 and also shows that, again, we are there no matter what.
21:11 As Spectator, we have always been there.
21:13 We've been here since for literally over a century, right?
21:17 Since 1877, the Spectator has existed.
21:21 And so we have a really long legacy here
21:24 of preserving the history of our student body.
21:28 And we are committed to doing so in such a localized level.
21:31 And I think that's what really elevates our coverage.
21:34 And really what I wish more so,
21:37 what national media could engage with is,
21:39 what was a Columbia before this?
21:42 And what was a Columbia during?
21:43 And what is a Columbia potentially after this?
21:46 - That's what I wanna ask you
21:47 because the finals are in the beginning of May.
21:50 Graduation is in a few weeks.
21:52 You mentioned, you know what a Columbia
21:54 before this looked like.
21:56 What does a Columbia after this look like?
21:58 And what is the solution to get to the after of this?
22:01 - Yeah, I think it's so challenging
22:05 to try to come up with a solution
22:07 as things develop so quickly.
22:10 But I think what does a Columbia look after this
22:14 is there must be a way in which we need to repair
22:18 the immense fractures on our campus.
22:22 The divide here is very, very deep.
22:24 And that's something that's been identified by students,
22:26 but also by faculty, by administrators themselves.
22:30 Shafiq in her own statement,
22:32 she says that she's deeply saddened.
22:34 She says that she is really, really trying to grapple
22:38 with what a divisive community looks like.
22:43 And so, you know, this is in a lot of regards
22:47 an unprecedented time, absolutely.
22:50 In some other regards, there is a strange precedent
22:53 for moments like this.
22:54 And specifically a very big moment in time for Columbia
22:58 cited very heavily and seen in parallel to this moment
23:02 is 1968, in which there were a lot of anti-war protests
23:05 at Columbia for against the Vietnam War.
23:07 And also kind of looped into that was a protest
23:11 against a gym that was going to be constructed
23:14 in Morningside Park that had separate entrances
23:16 for residents and affiliates.
23:17 It was sort of labeled gym pro, a de facto,
23:21 like what they described as a de facto segregation.
23:23 So there was, and it was humongous turmoil.
23:26 And that was one of the only other times
23:28 in which the university authorized the NYPD
23:31 to come in and sweep campus or to clear in this case,
23:34 occupy buildings on our campus.
23:38 And so, yes, this moment is pretty unprecedented.
23:43 At the same time, when we reflect on 1968
23:46 as a larger university community,
23:49 we see it as a pain point for our university.
23:52 We do see it as a stain in our legacy in terms of,
23:55 I've spoken to when I did my exit interview
23:57 with the former president, Lee Bollinger,
24:00 he sees it as a very big mark on this university
24:04 that we've been ever since repairing.
24:07 And that was a really big thing in this,
24:09 which is to say is we have learned a lot from that moment
24:13 and from other moments like it.
24:15 And I think right now we're in it
24:19 in terms of we're in this presence
24:21 and we're so deeply in the present
24:22 and we're so deeply in the day-to-day,
24:27 but there has to be a moment to be able to step back
24:29 and be like, what did we learn from the other times
24:32 that this has similar things have occurred?
24:35 I can't draw perfect parallels,
24:37 but the closest thing that I can imagine,
24:39 again, with the police presence,
24:40 with the sort of amount of protest is that moment.
24:45 And after that moment, there were changes.
24:47 We established what is called the university Senate,
24:51 we established these governing bodies and these policies
24:53 as a checks and balances on the university president,
24:56 on the administration to say,
24:59 hey, the student body needs to have some sort of say
25:02 in all of this.
25:03 And so right now we're actually following a development
25:07 regarding that right now,
25:08 what potentially the university Senate's role
25:11 and maybe governing bodies outside of,
25:15 just the top administration.
25:17 And when I refer to governing bodies,
25:18 I mean, the university Senate is comprised of students,
25:21 faculty, and administrators.
25:23 So kind of like a diverse array.
25:24 And these are people who are voted in
25:26 to represent like as senators.
25:28 And so there are conversations about what is the role of,
25:32 again, something that was established in the aftermath
25:35 of an incredibly divisive time on our campus
25:37 that led to the mass arrests of protesters,
25:39 that led to very, very large scale protests.
25:41 And we established this thing as a checks and balances.
25:46 So we need to come back and reevaluate
25:49 what is the appropriate process moving forward
25:51 for these so-called checks and balances.
25:53 I think there's been a frustration of like,
25:56 well, of course, to some extent,
25:58 the university can kind of act
25:59 in the way that it wants to.
26:01 That is the power of the president
26:03 and it is an important power in a lot of senses.
26:05 But when people feel that that has been overstepped,
26:08 of course, via the NYPE, that is very concerning.
26:12 And then also now that these students are kind of
26:15 on the lawns and with the encampment,
26:19 there's also a question of,
26:21 what's their power in all of this?
26:22 Because I do feel that they have built power
26:25 in terms of to be able to disrupt to such an extent,
26:28 again, very intentionally,
26:30 is the building of power and the building of,
26:33 for the first time maybe,
26:36 the students have kind of a wedge against the university
26:39 where the university is trying to figure out
26:43 how are they gonna proceed?
26:44 And it's not as simple maybe as they imagined as,
26:47 okay, we're gonna invoke the highest of our powers
26:49 and have the police department comes with this encampment
26:54 because clearly that wasn't enough of a incentive
26:58 to kick students or to propel students to leave
27:04 and disrupt or stop this protest.
27:07 So I think the question moving forward is,
27:11 what are the checks and balances that are necessary
27:13 for this situation?
27:14 Who's gonna need to have the power moving forward?
27:17 Because clearly we're seeing a dynamic shift of,
27:21 the university is in power in a lot of senses,
27:23 but the students are building power against them
27:26 in a lot of ways.
27:26 And that's not just the pro-Palestinian protesters,
27:28 but there has been a lot of,
27:31 even with Jewish and Israeli students
27:33 who have brought up concerns with this,
27:35 there is clearly building, right?
27:38 I mean, the congressional hearing is the best example
27:40 of that power building, right?
27:41 It's going beyond.
27:42 So we need to evaluate now,
27:44 who needs to be part of this conversation moving forward
27:48 in terms of what is the decision to be made?
27:52 Because evidently the university,
27:55 although it is assumed that it should be operating
27:58 on its own or in terms of like the administration,
28:01 yes, again, does have the sole power to do this,
28:03 but it seems that they've hit a bar in terms of like,
28:08 they've invoked one of the highest powers
28:09 that they could possibly invoke against students.
28:12 And it still hasn't done the results they need.
28:14 So what's the step here?
28:16 Is it continuously invoke that power?
28:18 Are we going to see another sweep?
28:20 Are we gonna see some fringe sort of outspoken individuals
28:25 have even implied that we should call in the national guard?
28:29 That would of course be, I think,
28:32 a really, really deeply traumatic thing for our university
28:36 and also for the public eye and for the image.
28:39 There's so many implications in that,
28:40 but I'm bringing that up as a fringe idea that does exist.
28:45 At the same time, we know that the backlash with that
28:48 and also the effectiveness, frankly,
28:51 of that is kind of in question right now is like,
28:54 at what point does the university expend way too much
28:59 trying to just repeatedly do what it has done before?
29:01 Invoke the same powers that it has tried to invoke,
29:03 suspending students, the NYPD,
29:06 doing all of these like kind of disciplinary realms,
29:10 taking sort of some advice from Congress
29:11 in the sense of like, you need to be cracking down on this.
29:13 You need to be just disciplining the students
29:16 who are violating your policies
29:18 and you need to be explicit about those policies
29:20 when it comes to antisemitism.
29:21 The university has done that or it is doing that
29:25 and Congress is arguing that they can be doing more,
29:28 but on the student end, the argument is sort of,
29:32 where do we go from here if it seems like the students,
29:36 I truly believe are very adamant on their demands
29:40 and I really don't think it's going so strong
29:45 in the sense that they're continuing
29:46 and I'm actually quite impressed by the level of,
29:51 for example, like remembering that students
29:54 are literally sleeping on the lawns
29:56 or eating on the lawns or sharing,
29:59 are kind of going away with their very comfortable dorm room
30:05 or kind of their resources to purposely make a stand.
30:09 Yeah, the question from here is,
30:12 who needs to be involved in that decision
30:14 and how do we make it representative enough
30:16 of the university, right?
30:18 With consideration that these students can't possibly,
30:21 although very large in mass,
30:23 can't possibly represent every single person here.
30:26 So what's the best way for us to try to do that?
30:29 Obviously, we can't function in a perfectly democratic way,
30:34 but if the university has reached a point
30:36 in which it doesn't seem like there's that much
30:38 they can do further in terms of like,
30:40 yes, they can continue suspending students,
30:42 they could sweep the encampment again,
30:43 they could do all of this,
30:45 but what do you do with the movement that stays, right?
30:49 With this, I would argue you do that again,
30:52 the solidarity protests outside
30:53 become 10 times more intense.
30:56 The backlash, the outcry from students within
31:01 become also 10 times more intense.
31:03 I believe that it could make the campus further unsafe,
31:06 even with the intention of making it safer
31:09 by invoking the NYPD, right?
31:10 These are all conversations that are clearly brewing
31:14 and by the fact that only a few days have passed,
31:18 but still from Thursday to now,
31:19 there has been a sort of an interesting lack
31:24 or we're trying to understand
31:27 what the university is quite thinking
31:28 because obviously they haven't touched
31:32 the encampment very much,
31:33 besides they were like, oh, you know,
31:35 at first they were saying to not put up the tents,
31:38 now the tents are back up,
31:39 so we're sort of just watching, right?
31:43 And interestingly enough, we're spectating.
31:45 - A word that we keep using in this conversation
31:49 is flashpoint.
31:50 The encampment at Columbia spurred national encampments
31:54 at other universities.
31:55 Yesterday we saw faculty walk out in solidarity
31:59 with the protesters.
32:00 Is there any indication of when these conversations
32:04 towards a resolution will occur?
32:06 - Right, so as I mentioned,
32:10 there are ongoing negotiations
32:13 between the organizers and administration,
32:15 although the insight into that is going to be very limited.
32:19 We're continuing our reporting on that, absolutely.
32:22 I think, like I said, there has been movement
32:25 from some of the governing bodies, right?
32:28 So the student councils have been kind of in on this,
32:31 like sort of surrounding issue for a long time
32:34 in terms of like, at least in the periphery,
32:36 but now they're becoming more and more involved.
32:39 Just yesterday, the Columbia College Student Council,
32:42 which represents, of course,
32:43 the Columbia College undergraduate population voted,
32:48 or they proposed a referendum on their ballot
32:51 and it was passed with majority.
32:54 So I believe somewhere between 60 to 70% voted in favor
32:58 of divestment from the university.
33:02 And also there were a few other percentages
33:04 regarding the severance of the program
33:06 between Tel Aviv University and Columbia,
33:10 Tel Aviv, the Global Center and Columbia.
33:13 But of course that was still,
33:16 40% of the student body voted,
33:19 and of those 40, 60 to 70% voted in favor, right?
33:23 We're still talking in numbers that are,
33:26 but that are building, right?
33:28 SGA, which is a Barnard version of the councils
33:31 also has the same kind of referendum
33:33 and a few other councils are contending
33:35 with the same ballot issue.
33:37 And, you know, we sort of acknowledged from the beginning
33:39 that the vote on the ballot doesn't necessarily
33:43 maybe do anything in terms of tangibly do something,
33:46 but it shows something is what they're attempting to show.
33:48 They're attempting to show some sort of attempt
33:52 at a consensus or some sort of attempt
33:55 at something of like clearly enough people
33:57 on this campus believe in a certain way
34:00 or that the university should be acting differently.
34:03 And sort of, I think that's where that is coming in,
34:05 but there is more movement from,
34:07 I think faculty organizers as well,
34:10 as you pointed out with the walkout,
34:12 they have been organizing in the background
34:14 for a very long time.
34:15 A lot of what's happening is behind closed doors.
34:18 And that's why our reporting is super crucial
34:20 to try to bring that to light
34:22 and see what is the insight into all of this.
34:24 But I truly believe that,
34:26 like that the way forward is going to continuously
34:32 really have to figure out
34:35 who do we need to bring in on this conversation?
34:37 What's the weight and the level of,
34:40 like I said, what is the weight need to give each person
34:43 sort of viewpoint and response
34:45 and thoughts about the university?
34:47 Because so many people are gonna think
34:48 so many different things
34:49 and we can't possibly do all of them at the same time.
34:52 So we need to come to a way of, as a community,
34:56 of coming together and imagining
34:58 what do we need to move forward
35:02 and who do we need to engage?
35:04 And I think that's the most critical question
35:06 that it seems that Shafiq is trying to ask.
35:09 And it seems that her administrators around her
35:11 are trying to ask is who needs to be involved in this,
35:14 whether or not,
35:15 I think they got to a point where they
35:18 were able to choose not to engage
35:21 maybe some of those parties, right?
35:22 Those faculty, those students,
35:24 but now they're actually being forced to, right?
35:26 Like I said, with the ongoing negotiations
35:28 with student organizers.
35:29 So that is what's gonna be super critical here is
35:32 how is that engagement actually going to tangibly influence
35:36 what decisions they make moving forward?
35:39 - Isabella Ramirez, thank you so much for your reporting.
35:42 As this situation develops,
35:44 I hope you come back on and join me again.
35:46 I appreciate the conversation.
35:48 Thank you so much.
35:49 Lovely to have this conversation with you.
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