Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey joined by Conservative Councillor Paul Bartlett from Kent County Council and Labour Councillor John Burden from Gravesham Borough Council.
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00:00Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV. I'm Rob Bailey. Later tonight we'll
00:26talk about the local elections which are being held across Kent next week. But first, a Gravesend
00:32mum who cares for her adult daughter has issued a challenge to Rishi Sunak. She says the Prime
00:37Minister should visit her home before pushing ahead with cuts to disability benefits. The
00:43Prime Minister has vowed to end what he calls Britain's sick note culture. He says reducing
00:48benefits payouts for people suffering anxiety and depression could encourage them back to
00:53work. We asked Dr Julian Spinks whether too many people are being signed off. Well I think the
00:59first thing is most GPs like myself would be perfectly happy to lose having to issue fit
01:04notes. However I do have some concerns and it's really the background to it. It's this assumption
01:11that everybody who's off sick really should be working and that's not always the case. GPs have
01:17always tried to look at it in the round. It can be because of the condition or it could be because
01:21they've got to travel to work which means they can't work. And so if it shifts into a pattern
01:25where you've got to really argue to be able to get a fit note for a week or two when you're ill,
01:30I don't think that's a good idea. Well fit and ready to join me tonight are Ashford Conservative
01:35Paul Bartlett and the leader of Gravesend Council Labour's John Burden. Welcome. We're talking there
01:42in the intro about Brenda Maddox who's a mum in your area John, whose daughter has autism. Her
01:48daughter has very sadly tried to end her life a few times. Not someone who can easily fit into
01:54the workplace. There are going to be a lot of people around Kent at the moment who are looking
01:59at the things that Rishi Sunak is saying and they're going to be wondering how this affects
02:02them aren't they? There will be and I think the problem is that he's come out with a policy that
02:08sounds good as a sort of soundbite. It's not got any substance to it. He's not thought through how
02:13he's going to implement it and it's unfair on the people who actually genuinely need that support.
02:18It sounds good for electioneering purposes but it's affecting real people and I think that is
02:23what's so wrong with all he's trying to do. Paul, as a Conservative, do you agree that we have a
02:28sick no culture in Britain? Well I think the economy has not grown in the way that it should
02:34have done because too many people are not working who could be working and I think the Prime Minister
02:40is absolutely right in achieving a balance between those who need support from the state and where
02:47absolutely behind the idea of providing support when it's needed to the people that need it but
02:53taking those people off of the sick no culture where it is absolutely necessary to do so because
03:01we've got to get Britain working again. He said last week when he made this announcement that
03:06there are people out there who are essentially medicalising normal world worries and do you think
03:13that statements like that are going to be increasing anxiety for people who are already
03:18suffering quite a lot maybe? Do you think that there is an element of danger in that kind of
03:23language? Well I think it's about providing the right support through the NHS to people with
03:29mental health issues. I think that the NHS needs to up its game substantially in the amount of
03:36work that it does to provide support for people who need and want to get back into work. I don't
03:44think people want to be on a sick note culture but what they want to do is have all of the help
03:52necessary to get them back into work and strangely I think taking the responsibility away from GPs,
03:58freeing up their time to provide what they should do, medical services to people, will actually be
04:05a good important step in that direction. The NHS has a bigger role to play John? I just find the
04:12whole concept quite offensive to people who need that support. I think the amount of money that
04:16people get when you're on the benefits is very small and I think some of the MPs who are making
04:22the decision in Parliament probably will go out for an evening dinner and spend more money on one
04:27night on themselves than the people are getting on the benefits. So to say it's a culture of to
04:32live on is ridiculous and I think to say that there's going to be support for them, they can't
04:37even provide the support now through the NHS. To say the NHS has to work harder, it's pathetic
04:42because they've not got enough support, they haven't got the equipment, the people. How are
04:47they going to work harder to deal with this if they're not getting the support from the centre?
04:52It's just not happening. It's a gimmick and the people who are paying that gimmick cost are the
04:58people who need the help and support. Well while we're on the idea of the people that need help
05:02and support, there was a committee set up to oversee improvements to Kent County Council's
05:06support for children with special educational needs. It was quietly axed this week. Its work
05:11will be taken on by another scrutiny committee. Here's a look at what council has said when the
05:15decision was made. There are so many more questions, there are so many issues with SEND that
05:21are still going on. I have parents who have gone through their life savings so that they could
05:28continue with their child's education while waiting for the EHCP and it's cost them so far
05:35£13,000. So there are some serious issues here. I think they haven't been answered. Whether this
05:45goes back to scrutiny or it continues but something has to change so that the people in the committee
05:52can actually have the answers or the questions answered by the portfolio holders, officers,
05:58whoever it is. But I don't think the committee did what it should have done.
06:04Paul, that committee was set up after an Ofsted report in May 22 raised very serious concerns
06:11about the quality of provision for children with special educational needs. Parents at the time
06:16were told that this committee would oversee changes that were desperately needed. Will they
06:21be feeling a bit fobbed off now that a year later that committee has been disbanded without any real
06:27tangible evidence of what it's achieved? Well it's going to take a long time in order to get the
06:31service in a better position to provide the support that's necessary and I think the scrutiny
06:39committee was a very important first step on the journey. The work that they've done will now feed
06:46into an ongoing review and so I'm very confident that within the next 12 months we'll see significant
06:53improvements. John, how do you think parents will be responding to that decision? I think they'll
06:59be disheartened. I know a number of parents who have tried to get support through that particular
07:03programme have failed to get support from Kent. It does take a long time to get registered as having
07:10a child that needs that support and you go around in circles. I've worked with people who've tried to get
07:17support through that system. It just is not working and I think they need a better solution than putting
07:23it into another committee to talk about it more. They need answers and there's nothing coming
07:27through from Kent, with respect to my colleague Paul here, that gives them any answers coming.
07:32I just want to move on just before we get towards the break to another issue. While Rishi Sunak
07:40is hoping to prove that he's fit for work in Downing Street, Sakir Starmer hopes he's on track to take over.
07:45The Labour leader this week vowed to revive British Rail and he's hoping nationalising train services
07:51will encourage Kent commuters back to him. I do apologise for that. The interesting thing in Kent
07:58is that we've actually got a nationalised rail service here. Southeastern has been owned by the
08:03Department for Transport since 2021. What have we learned, Paul, about how this might work for
08:09commuters in future? Well, what we've learned about is it's all about service to the public.
08:15Passenger numbers have increased enormously since the service was privatised in excess of 25 years
08:23ago and I think that we have to build on what's been achieved during that period. The ownership
08:31and access to capital is what is vital for British Rails or Great British Railways and I worry if it
08:40goes into public ownership that it will be competing for capital against the NHS and schools.
08:46It will always lose that battle. That's why ownership is better in the public domain so that
08:53it can access capital that the government will not be prepared to invest in it. It's an interesting
09:00one. Margaret Thatcher herself said privatising the railways was a privatisation too far and yet
09:08here we are with the Labour Party now saying that they want to undo that work that was done in the
09:1390s. John, could it be a money pit for the taxpayer though, do you think? Is there a point?
09:17Well, no, because even the Conservative government have found that if it was all taken back into
09:23public service and public control it would save £1.6 billion a year. What Labour's found is if
09:30you get more efficiency upon having to tender it they save, ultimately including that £1.6 billion,
09:35about £2.2 billion a year. That can be spent on the railway system and not just lost to
09:41inefficiencies, poor service and profit lines to the private sector. That's what's happening
09:46at the moment. The people paying for that are the train users. We need to get people back onto trains,
09:52we need them to have good services and I think to say this is going to cost a lot of money to bring
09:57it back, well the bizarre thing is the Conservatives have already brought back in a number of them,
10:02two or three of them already at no cost. When the franchise ends you just don't issue a new franchise,
10:08you just keep control of the product. That's what we're talking about, saving money for the train
10:14user, that can be put back into the service and it's much more efficient for people using it.
10:19Paul, obviously you're based in Ashford, you know that the fact that we've got commercial rail
10:24operators at the moment is one of the reasons why we don't have international services from
10:27Ebb Fleet or from Ashford, because they're not willing to invest at this moment in time in
10:32upgrading the stations in the way they need to. Could a national provider do something different,
10:35do you think? Well it's interesting that the infrastructure at Ashford was upgraded by
10:41the local councils and the south east. The signals were but the custom points weren't,
10:46isn't that? That's right, it doesn't have the border control it would need. No, the border
10:49control is all new and of course with entry exit scheme starting, well they were talking about it
10:55starting in October, it now apparently has been pushed back yet again till 2025 and I won't be
11:03at all surprised if it doesn't get pushed back again. But you're quite right, we need to ensure
11:08that international services restart from Ashford and it's essential for the east Kent economy for
11:15that to happen. We've only got a very short amount of time left John, but if Labour win,
11:19if this policy becomes something that's happened, how much pressure should you be putting on Labour
11:23to make sure that we get those international services back? I think it'll be critical,
11:27we're supported in Gresham, we've written in supporting the services come back because we've
11:32got a station in Ebb Fleet, we want that reopened for international travel. So it's very very
11:38important for the people of Kent and our area to actually bring that service back. It's time for a
11:43short break, when we come back we'll be previewing next week's Police and Crime Commissioner election
11:47and the local elections. Stay with us.
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15:08Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:11Next tonight Kent goes to the polls next Thursday, or does it? Apathy has been the clear winner in
15:18previous elections to choose our Police and Crime Commissioner. Only one in five registered voters
15:22turned out in 2016, while a record 30% turnout in 2021 was boosted by Kent County Council elections
15:30on the same day. Our local democracy reporter Gabriel Morris explains who is on the ballot.
15:36Well everyone in Kent will have the same three candidates to choose from. We'll start with
15:40Matthew Scott. He's the Conservative candidate who's already served two terms in office. He says
15:47in that time police numbers have increased to the highest level ever, which has led to
15:51falling crime rates, and among his pledges for his third term is his immediate justice campaign,
15:57making those who commit antisocial behaviour quickly pay back to the neighbourhoods they affect.
16:02We'll then move on to Graham Colley. He is the Lib Dem candidate. His party's priority is to
16:08restructure the Police and Crime Commissioner's role and replace that with police boards made up
16:13of elected local councillors. He also says crime is a symptom of a problematic society
16:20and policing cannot change society. It only prevents its worse effects. He says there must be
16:25effective policing. And the final candidate is from the Labour Party. It's Lenny Rowles. He says if
16:31elected he would concentrate on shoplifting, which has become a major issue in many parts of Kent.
16:37Now part of Labour's national policy, they win the general election, is to bring in some reforms
16:41into this. Still with me are Ashford Conservative Paul Bartlett and the leader of Gravesham Council,
16:47Labour's John Burden. Thanks for being here again. It's an interesting election this one, isn't it?
16:53It's actually selecting the person who has the biggest personal mandate in Kent. Nobody else
16:58is elected by the whole county. An enormous amount of political power. But John, what can they
17:04actually do with it? Well I've been on the scrutiny role with the Police and Crime Commissioner, the last
17:10two actually, and Barnes and the current one. And we need, we had to fill the post at the moment,
17:16so it's important we do do that. But I'm not sure what they actually do to benefit the residents of
17:23Kent. They are meant to hold the police to account. I don't think they truly do. And when you do the
17:29interviews of both the police and them, there's a disconnect in part. So I think the new incoming
17:37person must do better to control the police and the outputs. Well it's an interesting point that,
17:43I mean obviously we've had Matthew Scott as being the Police and Crime Commissioner in Kent
17:47for the last two terms. He's gunning for a third term. If he lost next week, I know you don't want
17:54to contemplate that, but if he did lose next week, would the people of Kent notice the difference if
17:58one of the other two won instead? Well I think they would because what I found in Matthew is that
18:03he's extremely engaging with his experience working with the police. What he's able to do
18:10is to ensure that the officers locally in Ashford, and I know this is replicated in the other
18:17districts across Kent and Medway, they understand where the resources need to be diverted into.
18:26And I think working with the right individual, the senior police officers have a much better
18:33understanding of where their resources need to be deployed. I mean we all talk about at length
18:40about the need to report, report, report crime, but it's more nuanced than that. And Matthew has been an
18:46excellent advocate of ensuring what the community needs, the community will get from the police.
18:53And so I think they will certainly notice the difference and I certainly urge people to go out
18:58and support Matthew. Obviously we don't have a Liberal Democrat in the studio with us today, but
19:02we heard what their policy is. Their policy is effectively that there shouldn't be a Police
19:06and Crime Commissioner, that if they win they will use that lobbying power to try and
19:10reform it and take it back to essentially the old police authority system, where it was
19:15a non-directly elected role. But from your point of view Phil and from the Labour point of view,
19:21would they notice a difference if Lenny Rolls wins next week?
19:25I think they would because I actually know Lenny very well. He's very sincere, he's genuine, he really wants
19:31to help local people and he has a real strong feeling for the people of Kent. He also sees the
19:37need to get that connection back to the ordinary people of Kent and not just sitting in an ivory
19:42tower down in Maidstone. So I think people would see the difference with him. As far as the
19:47connection with the police is concerned, the police do understand what's happening on the ground as
19:51their job. So they are changing how they're working, they do change how they deal with crime
19:56because they're reflecting what they experience on the ground. So having the Police and Crime
20:01Commissioner on the side of them, you need somebody who's going to connect with them with
20:05the politics of the local areas and the current Police and Crime Commissioner doesn't do that.
20:12He hasn't been to Gratian for example to talk to me as the leader of that, to understand what are
20:17the issues in our area. You've got to connect with the local politicians. It is an interesting one
20:22because I think ever since this was, this has existed since 2012 but it has been an uncomfortable
20:27marrying of policing and politics. I think candidates even now, 12 years later, not quite
20:33sure how to campaign on police. What we hear is the same things from all the candidates. They're
20:37all anti-crime, they're all pro-victim, they all want neighbourhoods to be safer, they all want
20:41women and girls to be safer, which is obviously what you'd say if you were standing for a role
20:45like this. There are some interesting things. I mean it's saying there that Matthew Scott,
20:50in your view, hasn't engaged with the politics. One of your colleagues at Kent County Council,
20:54Sean Holden, has been on the media this week saying that the unworkable smoking ban policy
21:00that Rishi Sunak has now got approval for shouldn't happen and it shouldn't happen because
21:05Kent will be on the front line of smuggling, of cigarettes coming in from Europe being sold on
21:11the black market, which would put an enormous policing pressure on Kent. Now you'd expect
21:15Matthew Scott to be the person saying that, wouldn't you? Well no, look, I mean on the
21:20graduating smoking ban, it is absolutely the right thing to do to improve public health.
21:29It is one of the biggest killers that we've got at the moment and so the Prime Minister,
21:35with his new policy in making sure that as you get older you cannot buy
21:43cigarettes, I think is just terrific and it will transform public health and the police are there
21:50to support it. I've been looking to see if Matthew Scott has said anything about it online and I found
21:54a post on Twitter from a Matthew Scott saying that the best way to do it was raising VAT on
21:59cigarettes every year until they become affordable as an alternative to turning it into a criminal
22:03offence. That wasn't our Matthew Scott, it was just some random guy on Twitter. Do you think
22:09that the issues like that the Police and Crime Commissioner should be more involved with?
22:13I do, because I think he needs to point out how bizarre it is going to try to be in enforcing that.
22:18I don't know if anybody's looked at people who are growing up from 16, 18, 19, 20, 25 to recognise
22:26the age difference in somebody by year as they go through the system. It's going to be impossible to
22:31manage. So are we all going to have to carry around personal IDs to say how old you are? Now
22:38obviously I've passed as being over 25, so I've got enough grey hair to demonstrate it. But apart from
22:44that, if you're in that bracket of people that can easily pass as 16 or 25, how do you enforce something
22:50as ridiculous as that? What we need is better education as to why smoking is bad for you.
22:55Deal with the actual issue that way instead of penalising it and criminalising people. Because
23:01that actually stops people getting into work, stops them actually having a positive future by doing
23:06something like that. And that's not the only election happening next week of course. Expect
23:11the eyes of the nation to be on two Kent boroughs next Thursday. Local elections are being held
23:15across the country with many speculating Rishi Sunak's future as Prime Minister is at stake.
23:20It includes votes in the Lib Dem target seat of Tunbridge Wells and in Maidstone where the
23:25Conservatives hold power by a very narrow margin. You'll find in-depth coverage right
23:30here with a special edition of the Kent Politics Show coming up live next Friday from Tunbridge
23:35Wells. But I know neither of you are in action next week politically, but I imagine you've been
23:41campaigning. John, what do you expect to happen next week? I think in those areas where the borough
23:48and district councillors are standing, particularly in Kent, I wouldn't be surprised to see a very
23:54big swing against the Conservative Party. There is no appetite at the moment I'm finding for people
24:00to go and vote Conservative. The Labour vote is doing very well and holding up and I think you'll
24:05find in areas where the Liberals are doing well, they will do well. Likewise with the Greens. But
24:10I think the party that will be punished for the failure in the last few years in government,
24:15the Conservatives, will get punished next week as well. Paul, your colleagues around the county
24:19are defending 26 seats next week. There are all kinds of outlandish figures going around about how
24:25many might be lost nationally by Rishi Sunak if it's a very bad night. Not many of them are here
24:29in Kent. How many of those 26 do you think you can keep? Well I think we should and we fully expect
24:35to keep all of them. I mean there is no doubt at all that the best-run councils are Conservative-run
24:43councils. We've seen Labour and non-Conservative councils falling out of control and making these
24:53114 notices which gives the control to the centre and it is not the way to manage councils.
25:01Although Conservative councils have been in that position as well, haven't they?
25:05A vanishingly tiny small number of those. Look at what's happened in Birmingham. If you want to
25:12protect your youth services for example, do not vote Labour because they will end up closing all
25:20the services. That's what happens when they issue one of these notices. John, I've got to let you
25:24come back on that. Well I love Paul's enthusiasm but it doesn't touch base with reality at all.
25:30If you look what Kent County Council has been doing in the last year, it's cutting youth services,
25:35it's cutting support to the elderly, it's cutting services left, right and centre. It can't even
25:40balance its books properly. It's got a budget this year that can make multi-million pound savings
25:46but they can't identify where the savings will be. They're going to make it up as they go on
25:49through the year. That's not good management. Their reserves are so low it's almost negligible.
25:56If it goes wrong for Kent, they're finished. They'll be wound up. They'll get a notice.
26:00From my perspective as a leader of one of the authorities in Kent, I know how close they are
26:05to getting that 114 notice. They're on notice, it's coming, they just don't know how to face
26:10up to it. You might regret your words about the section 114 notice if that happens at KCC.
26:14Not at all. Kent is a very very well run authority and there is no chance of it falling into bankruptcy.
26:22Well there we go. A stark statement for us to end on. That's all from us here at the Kent Politics
26:28Show. Thanks to both of my guests tonight coming into the studio. We'll be back next Friday as I
26:33said before live from Tunbridge Wells with an election special and there's more politics
26:37coverage including details of all the candidates standing in next week's elections
26:41at Kent Online. Stay with us for all today's news on Kent Tonight and we'll see you next week.
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