Amanpour & Co. - April 9, 2024
A new Apple TV series turns back the clock on American foreign policy to someone many know as America’s first diplomat. “Franklin” tells the story of Benjamin Franklin’s mission to France in 1776 to secure support for the American independence movement. Academy Award winner Michael Douglas speaks to us about taking on the role of a founding father.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain graphic content. Viewer discretion is advised.
Transcript
00:04WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND
00:04COMPANY."
00:05HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:07>> THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE IS
00:09DESPERATE.
00:10SPEAKER JOHNSON HAS NOW SAT ON
00:11HIS HANDS FOR 55 DAYS.
00:13>> ALL EYES ON WASHINGTON AS
00:15CONGRESS DECIDES WHETHER TO TURN
00:16THE KEY ON AID TO UKRAINE AND
00:19NOW ALSO ISRAEL.
00:20I SPEAK TO WENDY SHERMAN WHO
00:22RECENTLY STEPPED DOWN AS DEPUTY
00:24SECRETARY OF STATE.
00:27THEN -- AID DELIVERY TURNED
00:28DEADLY.
00:29WE BRING YOU A DETAILED
00:31INVESTIGATION INTO THE FEBRUARY
00:32KILLING OF MORE THAN 100
00:33STARVING PALESTINIANS RUSHING TO
00:35GET FOOD IN GAZA.
00:38THEN --
00:38>> HE KNEW HE WAS SORT OF A ROCK
00:41STAR SO WHAT DID HE DO IS HE
00:45PLAYED HUMILITY.
00:46>> BECOMING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
00:48OSCAR MICHAEL DOUGLAS TELLS
00:51WALTER ISAACSON WHY IT'S TIME
00:53FOR HIS FIRST PERIOD PIECE.
01:02PLUS --
01:03♪♪
01:04MAMA MIA CREATOR AND PRODUCER
01:05JOINS ME TO CELEBRATE THE GLOBAL
01:07FINOMNEN LAUNCHED 25 YEARS AGO
01:09ON LONDON'S WEST END.
01:26>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS
01:28MADE POSSIBLE BY --
01:29THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
01:32JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
01:34CANDACE KING WEIR.
01:38THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA
01:41AND MICKEY STRAUS.
01:44MARK J. BLECHNER.
01:45THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO
01:47FOUNDATION.
01:49SETON J. MELVIN.
01:51CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
01:52KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED
01:53TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
01:56IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
01:58BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
02:00>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED
02:02BY THESE FUNDERS.
02:03AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
02:06STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
02:07THANK YOU.
02:12>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
02:14EVERYONE.
02:15I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW
02:16YORK.
02:16WHAT LEVERAGE DOES AMERICA STILL
02:19WIELD WHETHER IN ISRAEL, IN
02:22UKRAINE, AND BEYOND ALL POSSIBLE
02:23DOUBT?
02:24AND IS IT AS GOOD AS ITS WORD?
02:26THERE IS A RISING SENSE THAT THE
02:27VALUES AMERICA SAYS IT
02:28REPRESENTS IN THE WORLD ARE NOT
02:30REFLECTED IN SOME OF ITS
02:30ACTIONS.
02:31IN GAZA THE ONGOING DEATH TOLL
02:33AND THE HEART BREAKING IMAGES
02:35LOCAL REPORTERS BRING US EVERY
02:36DAY HAVE PUSHED THE BIDEN
02:38ADMINISTRATION INTO CALLING FOR
02:40AT LEAST A TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE,
02:42BUT THE FLOW OF WEAPONS FROM THE
02:43UNITED STATES TO ISRAEL HAS
02:47CONTINUED TO PACE.
02:49MEANWHILE IN UKRAINE THE
02:51GOVERNMENT THERE FACES ALMOST
02:52THE OPPOSITE DILEMMA.
02:54ONGOING PUBLIC SUPPORT EXPRESSED
02:55BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BUT
02:57WITHOUT SENDING THE WEAPONS AND
02:59AMMUNITION SO DESPERATELY NEEDED
03:02THANKS TO INTRANSIGENT
03:04REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS.
03:05PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY COULDN'T
03:07HAVE BEEN CLEARER WARNING THIS
03:08WEEKEND, QUOTE, IF CONGRESS DOES
03:10NOT HELP UKRAINE, UKRAINE WILL
03:13LOSE THE WAR.
03:14FOR DECADES WENDY SHERMAN HAS
03:15BEEN AT THE CENTER OF THE U.S.
03:17FOREIGN POLICY ESTABLISHMENT,
03:19SERVING UNDER THREE PRESIDENTS
03:20AND FIVE SECRETARIES OF STATE.
03:22STHURMEN WAS ANTONY BLINKEN'S
03:23TOP DEPUTY UNTIL SHE RETIRED
03:26LAST SUMMER, AND WE WANT TO
03:28WELCOME YOU BACK TO THE SHOW
03:29FROM WASHINGTON.
03:29GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.
03:31>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU,
03:32CHRISTIANE.
03:33>> SO, I HAVE SET YOU UP FOR
03:35SOME TOUGH QUESTIONS BECAUSE THE
03:37VERY REAL ISSUE OF AMERICA AND
03:39ITS LEVERAGE AT LEAST WITH ITS
03:42ALLIES LIKE, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL
03:44SEEMS TO THE SHOCK AND HORROR OF
03:45MOST OF THE WORLD TO NOT BE
03:47HAVING ANY EFFECT.
03:49AND AS YOU KNOW A RISING CALL
03:51EVEN INSIDE THE UNITED STATES TO
03:53AT VERY LEAST CONDITION
03:55CONTINUED WEAPONS DELIVERIES AND
03:57IN MANY AREAS TO SUS SPEND THEM.
04:00WHY DO YOU THINK THIS BIDEN
04:01ADMINISTRATION HAS SO LITTLE
04:03LEVERAGE WITH NETANYAHU'S
04:04GOVERNMENT?
04:05>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S
04:08GREAT TO BE WITH YOU,
04:10CHRISTIANE.
04:10AND BOTH YOU AND I HAVE SEEN
04:13MANY YEARS OF NATIONAL SECURITY
04:14AND FOREIGN POLICY AND ALL OF
04:17THACHANGES THAT THAT BRINGS.
04:19I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
04:20HAS A VERY TOUGH JOB IN FRONT OF
04:23IT.
04:23ISRAEL IS A SOVEREIGN NATION.
04:25IT GETS TO MAKE ITS OWN
04:28DECISIONS.
04:28YOU AND I WERE AROUND WHEN I WAS
04:30VERY HONORED TO LEAD THE
04:32NEGOTIATION TEAM WITH IRAN TO
04:33GET AN IRANIAN DEAL TO STOP
04:36THEIR ADVANCE IN NUCLEAR
04:39WEAPONS.
04:40AND THEN THAT GOT OVERTURNED BY
04:43THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
04:44SO THINGS DO CHANGE.
04:45AND ONE MUST PERSIST.
04:48SO IN THIS CASE I THINK
04:49PRESIDENT BIDEN AND THE TEAM ARE
04:52PERSISTING.
04:52WE CERTAINLY WANT TO SUPPORT
04:55ISRAEL AS A SOVEREIGN NATION, AS
04:57A DEMOCRACY OF A SORT THESE DAYS
05:03IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
05:05BUT AT THE SAME TIME I DON'T
05:06THINK THERE'S ANYONE LEFT WHO
05:08DOESN'T BELIEVE INCLUDING THE
05:09PRESIDENT THAT WE NEED A
05:16CEASE-FIRE NOW SO THAT THE
05:19CIVILIAN DEATH TOLL DOES NOT
05:21CONTINUE SO THAT AID GETS IN SO
05:22THAT STARVING CHILDREN ARE FED.
05:24ALL THE WHILE REMEMBERING THIS
05:25WAS STARTED BY HAMAS, A
05:28TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, AGAINST
05:28THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
05:29SO THIS IS VERY COMPLICATED.
05:31WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY.
05:33WE ALSO HELPED TO ARM ISRAEL AS
05:36A DETERRENT TO IRAN IN THE
05:39REGION AND TO OTHER NEFARIOUS
05:41ACTORS, SO THIS IS A VERY
05:43COMPLICATED SCENARIO.
05:46AND I APPLAUD THE PRESIDENT FOR
05:48LAYING DOWN IN A VERY TOUGH
05:50CONVERSATION WITH PRIME MINISTER
05:51NETANYAHU THAT THERE MUST BE
05:55VERY TANGIBLE CHANGE FOLLOWED UP
05:58BY SECRETARY BLINKEN SAYING
06:01THERE MUST BE REAL RESULTS, NOT
06:02JUST STEPS BUT REAL RESULTS.
06:04AND WE'LL SEE WHETHER THERE WILL
06:06BE OR WHETHER U.S. POLICY WILL
06:07CHANGE.
06:08AND I EXPECT IF THERE ARE NOT
06:09REAL RESULTS, POLICY WILL INDEED
06:11CHANGE IN PRETTY DRAMATIC
06:12FASHION.
06:13>> OKAY, THAT'S INTERESTING.
06:14SO YOU'VE SETOUT THE -- YOU
06:16KNOW, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
06:17VIEW AND WHAT'S AT STAKE.
06:19WHAT IS THE DRAMATIC FASHION
06:22THAT YOU THINK -- IN WHICH YOU
06:24THINK POLICY MIGHT CHANGE?
06:26BECAUSE LET'S JUST BE FRANK
06:27NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN TERMS OF
06:30NETANYAHU'S PUBLIC RESPONSE AND
06:31MAYBE IT'S EVEN HIS PRIVATE
06:33RESPONSE TO THE PRESIDENT ABOUT
06:34LET'S JUST SAY A COUNTER
06:35OFFENSIVE ON RAFAH WHERE MORE
06:36THAN A MILLION PALESTINIANS HAVE
06:38BEEN TOLD BY THE ISRAELIS TO
06:40SEEK SHELTER.
06:41AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
06:42SAYS DON'T DO IT, THERE'S A HUGE
06:45OP-ED.
06:46IN FACT, I'M GOING TO READ A
06:47LITTLE BIT RIGHT NOW FROM THE
06:48PRESIDENTS OF JORDAN, EGYPT, AND
06:51FRANCE IN WHICH THEY ARE SAYING
06:54"WE WARN AGAINST THE DANGEROUS
06:55CONSEQUENCES OF AN ISRAELI
06:57OFFENSIVE ON RAFAH WHERE ABOUT
06:591.5 MILLION PALESTINIAN
07:01CIVILIANS HAVE SOUGHT REFUGE.
07:03SUCH AN OFFENSIVE WOULD ONLY
07:04BRING MORE DEATH AND SUFFERING,
07:05HEIGHTEN THE RISKS AND
07:07CONSEQUENCES OF MASS
07:08DISPLACEMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF
07:09GAZA AND THREATEN REGIONAL
07:11ESCALATION."
07:12SO IN OTHER WORDS EVERYTHING
07:13THAT COULD GO WRONG AND COULD
07:14GET WORSE COULD HAPPEN IF THAT
07:17OFFENSIVE HAPPENS, AND NETANYAHU
07:19SAID NO FORCE IN THE WORLD WILL
07:21STOP US.
07:23THAT IS, I MEAN, THUMBING YOUR
07:25NOSE AT YOUR GREATEST ALLY WHO'S
07:27ACTUALLY SUPPLYING YOU WITH THE
07:28WEAPONS TO CONTINUE RIGHT NOW.
07:29>> WELL, YOU'RE THUMBING YOUR
07:31NOSE THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD AT
07:33THIS POINT, AND IT IS WHY I
07:36THINK THE UNITED STATES
07:38ABSTAINING FROM THE LATEST U.N.
07:43RESOLUTION AS OPPOSED TO VETOING
07:47TO KNOWS THE WORLD IS STUNNED BY
07:51THE HUMANITARIAN TRAGEDY AND THE
07:52WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN LOSS,
07:54WHICH, IS HEART BREAKING IS ONE
07:56OF OVER 200 AID WORKERS WHO HAVE
07:58LOST THEIR LOVES, MANY OF THEM
08:00PALESTINIAN AID WORKERS.
08:03AT THE SAME TIME, LET NONE OF US
08:05FORGET THERE ARE STILL WELL OVER
08:07100 HOSTAGES HOPEFULLY SOME
08:09ALIVE THAT ARE BEING HELD BY
08:11HAMAS AFTER THE MOST BRUTAL
08:12ATTACK ON ISRAEL.
08:14SO I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYONE
08:16LEFT WHO DOESN'T THINK THERE
08:17NEEDS TO BE CHANGE HERE.
08:18THE ENTIRE WORLD IS SAYING WHAT
08:20WAS JUST SAID IN THAT LETTER
08:22THAT YOU REPEATED, WHICH IN FACT
08:24JOHN KIRBY AND MATT MILLER AT
08:28THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS SAID AS
08:30WELL, WHICH IS A GROUND ADVANCE
08:32INTO RAFAH IS NOT SOMETHING THAT
08:34THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTS.
08:36WE DO NOT SUPPORT THAT KIND OF
08:37OFFENSIVE.
08:38WE UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL WANTS
08:38TO MAKE SURE THAT HAMAS IS NEVER
08:40A THREAT TO ISRAEL NEVER AGAIN,
08:42BUT THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO DO
08:44THAT.
08:45SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID TODAY
08:46THAT, IN FACT, WE EXPECT
08:49ISRAELIS TO BE IN WASHINGTON
08:51PERHAPS AS SOON AS NEXT WEEK TO
08:52TALK ABOUT OTHER WAYS TO
08:54APPROACH THE CONCERN.
08:58>> YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY CLEARLY
08:59ALWAYS BRINGS UP THE FACT THAT
09:02THIS PHASE OF THIS TERRIBLE WAR
09:03WAS STARTED ON OCTOBER 7th, AND
09:06EVERYBODY AGREES PRESUMABLY THAT
09:08ANY NATION HAS THE RIGHT TO
09:11SELF-DEFENSE.
09:11BUT EVERYBODY ESPECIALLY IN THE
09:12WESTERN WORLD ALSO AGREES THAT
09:14THERE ARE RULES OF THE ROAD AND
09:17THAT THIS ISRAELI OFFENSIVE HAS
09:19STEPPED SO FAR OUTSIDE THOSE
09:20RULES, THAT ITS GREATEST ALLIES
09:22ARE VERY, VERY WORRIED.
09:24SO GIVEN THE FACT THAT MANY
09:26PEOPLE SAY YOUR BEST FRIEND
09:28SHOULD HELP YOU IF YOU'RE DRUNK,
09:29TAKE THE KEYS AWAY FROM YOU, DO
09:31NOT KEEP DRIVING, IF YOU WERE
09:36THE -- STILL THE NEGOTIATOR,
09:37STILL THE POINT PERSON AS YOU
09:38HAVE BEEN IN MANY OCCASIONS,
09:41WHAT WOULD YOU SAY EITHER TO THE
09:45ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER OR
09:46WHOEVER'S INVOLVED ABOUT HOW
09:50ACTUALLY TO FIX THIS?
09:51WHAT IS THE WAY TO STOP THIS WAR
09:57AS IT'S BEING WIELDED RIGHT NOW
09:58AND TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVES?
10:01>> WELL, I THINK THAT SAY THE
10:02DISCUSSION TAKING PLACE IN CAIRO
10:05THIS PAST WEEKEND WITH CIA
10:07DIRECTOR BILL BURNS MEETING WITH
10:09OTHER INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS.
10:10TO GET A CEASE-FIRE THAT MIGHT
10:13NOT BE PERMANENT QUITE YET BUT
10:15COULD BE ELONGATED INTO A
10:17PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE IN RETURN
10:18FOR HOSTAGES COMING BACK TO
10:25ISRAEL, AND OF COURSE, IN
10:28RESPONSE TO THAT PRISONERS BEING
10:29LET OUT OF ISRAELI JAILS BACK TO
10:31THE PALESTINIANS.
10:32THAT IS A CRITICAL STEP THAT
10:33NEEDS TO BE TAKEN HERE.
10:35HAMAS SAID IT DIDN'T QUITE MEET
10:38ITS DEMANDS BUT WOULD TAKE IT UP
10:40AND RESPOND RESPONSIBLY.
10:42CERTAINLY STRANGE TO THINK ABOUT
10:44HAMAS BEING RESPONSIBLE, BUT
10:46NONETHELESS I'M GOING TO KEEP MY
10:47FINGERS CROSSED THAT, IN FACT,
10:49THERE IS A STEP FORWARD HERE,
10:51THAT WE CAN GET A CEASE-FIRE,
10:52THAT WE CAN GET HUMANITARIAN AID
10:56IN, THAT WE CAN FIGURE OUT A
10:58LONGER TERM A SOLUTION HERE.
10:59THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION HERE IS A
11:01WAY FOR PALESTINIANS TO LIVE IN
11:04PEACE AND DIGNITY AND FOR ISRAEL
11:05TO BE ASSURED OF SECURITY.
11:09THERE WERE STEPS TAKEN ALONG THE
11:11WAY AROUND NORMALIZATION WITH
11:13ARAB PARTNERS IN THE REGION.
11:15THERE'S MORE TO GO IN THAT
11:17ARENA, BUT I DON'T THINK
11:18ANYTHING'S GOING TO PROCEED
11:20FORWARD UNLESS THERE'S A FUTURE
11:21FOR THE PALESTINIANS.
11:24THAT FUTURE HAS TO BE SUPPORTED
11:26BY A PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY THAT
11:28REFORMS ITSELF, THAT IS CAPABLE.
11:32RIGHT NOW I DON'T BELIEVE THE
11:34PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS CAPABLE
11:35OF GOVERNING GAZA.
11:37I THINK IT WILL TAKE A
11:38MULTINATIONAL EFFORT FOR THAT TO
11:39HAPPEN, AND OBVIOUSLY THE
11:41RECONSTRUCTION LOOKING AT THE
11:43PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU'RE NOW
11:44PUTTING UP, WHICH ARE JUST
11:47HORRIFYING, THAT RECONSTRUCTION
11:48IS GOING TO TAKE A VERY LONG
11:49TIME.
11:49>> IT REALLY IS HORRIFYING.
11:51I MEAN IT'S JUST -- AND ALL THE
11:53FIGURES SHOW THAT WHETHER IT'S
11:55THE DEATHS, WHETHER IT'S THE
11:56DESTRUCTION, THIS IS THE FASTEST
11:57IN MODERN HISTORY.
11:59I MEAN THE NUMBER OF DEATHS AND
12:04DESTRUCTION AND NOW THE
12:04STARVATION, IT'S JUST NEVER
12:05HAPPENED IN MODERN WARFARE THIS
12:08AMOUNT OF CATASTROPHE HAS
12:10BUILT-UP IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD
12:11OF TIME.
12:12AND AGAIN, TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL
12:16MOST OF ITS ALLIES, OF COURSE
12:17ITS ADVERSARIES DON'T CARE, BUT
12:19IT'S ALLIES BELIEVE IT'S LOSING
12:21THE MORAL HIGH GROUND, IT IS
12:23ISOLATE, AND AS WELL AS CHUCK
12:24SCHUMER SENIOR SENATOR HERE IN
12:26THE UNITED STATES CALLING FOR
12:27NEW ELECTIONS IN A DIFFERENT WAY
12:29OF PROSECUTING THIS WAR.
12:30SO YOU TALKED ABOUT IT A LITTLE
12:31BIT, SO WHAT HAPPENS, AND WHAT
12:33DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN
12:34WHEN THE NEXT INEVITABLE
12:37ESCALATION COMES, WHICH IS THE
12:41TELEGRAPH RESPONSE THAT IRAN
12:42SAYS IT WILL HAVE TO MAKE FOR
12:44THE ATTACK ON ITS DIPLOMATIC
12:46FACILITY AND THE DEATH OF ITS
12:48INDIVIDUALS THERE?
12:48WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD BE A
12:51PROPORTIONAL RESPONSE OR A
12:52LIKELY RESPONSE GIVEN YOUR
12:54EXPERIENCE?
12:55>> I THINK IRAN CAN DO MANY
12:57DIFFERENT THINGS.
12:58THEY CAN ATTACK AN ISRAELI
13:01OUTPOST, MAYBE NOT EVEN INSIDE
13:02THE BOUNDARIES OF ISRAEL ITSELF.
13:05IT CAN LAUNCH A CYBER ATTACK, OF
13:08COURSE.
13:08IT CAN SEND MORE OF ITS PROXIES
13:11AGAINST ISRAEL.
13:13WE ARE ALL WORRIED ABOUT, OF
13:16COURSE, THE NORTHERN BORDER AND
13:17A WIDENING WAR WITH LEBANON LED
13:19BY HEZBOLLAH, A PROXY OF IRAN.
13:22SO THERE'S A VERY DANGEROUS ROAD
13:24HERE.
13:24AND CHRISTIANE, AS SOMEONE WHO
13:27AS YOU NOTED HAS WORKED FOR
13:28THREE PRESIDENTS AND FIVE
13:29SECRETARIES OF STATE, ONE HAS TO
13:33PERSIST.
13:33WE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE WHERE WE
13:35ARE.
13:35I WAS LOOKING BACK THINKING
13:36ABOUT THIS INTERVIEW TO THE
13:38FIRST TIME I WAS ASSISTANT
13:40SECRETARY OF RELIGIOUS
13:42LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS AND NUDGED
13:48TOGETHER BY THEN PRESIDENT BILL
13:49CLINTON TO SHAKE HANDS AND ALL
13:51THE WORK DONE AT WIDE RIVER IN
13:53SHEPHERDS TOWN AND CAMP DAVID,
13:55HOW CLOSE WE WERE AND NOW HOW
13:57FAR AWAY WE ARE.
13:58>> YES.
13:58AND NOW MANY PEOPLE NOW ARE
14:02SAYING MANY PEOPLE JOIN -- FOR
14:05BOMBING THE 2004 CAMP DAVID BUT
14:07MANY PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP TO THE
14:08FACT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU NEVER
14:10WANTED A SEPARATE PALESTINIAN
14:11STATE, ALWAYS WORKED TO
14:13UNDERMINE THE PALESTINIAN
14:14AUTHORITY.
14:14AND THEY'RE JUST SAYING, YEAH, I
14:15MEAN THIS IS THE INEVITABLE.
14:18I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ONE LAST
14:21QUESTION ON THIS.
14:22DO YOU ALSO BELIEVE -- I'M
14:24LOOKING FOR THE QUOTE HERE RIGHT
14:27NOW, BUT BASICALLY THE UNITED
14:28STATES APPEARED TO BE TAKING ITS
14:30EYE OFF THE BALL IN A MAJOR WAY,
14:32CERTAINLY OFF THE
14:37PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI ISSUE WITH
14:38ITS PIVOT TO ASIA AND THE IDEA
14:41THIS WAS A MUCH, MUCH MORE
14:42IMPORTANT AND STRATEGIC THINK.
14:44FRANKLIN FORD WHO WROTE A BOOK
14:46ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY, DESCRIBED
14:48BRET McGURG, THE SPECIAL
14:50COORDINATOR FOR MIDDLE EAST, AS,
14:51QUOTE, KEEPING THE MIDDLE EAST
14:52OFF THE PRESIDENT'S DESK AS MUCH
14:54AS POSSIBLE.
14:55IS THAT A MISTAKE?
14:57WOULD YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT KIND
14:59OF MEMO?
15:00>> I DON'T KNOW IT WAS KEPT OFF
15:03THE TABLE ALTOGETHER.
15:06WE CLEARLY HAD ONGOING
15:09DISCUSSIONS WITH ISRAEL.
15:11WE HAD AMBASSADORS, BOTH
15:13INCREDIBLY SEASONED LEADERS AS
15:15OUR AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL, SO
15:16THERE WAS NEVER A LACK OF
15:19CONVERSATION AND CONNECTION.
15:21THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AS MUCH
15:23AS, OF COURSE, WE DISAGREED WITH
15:26THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION,
15:27CONTINUED THE NORMALIZATION
15:28EFFORTS TRYING TO SAY TO THE
15:32ARAB STATES AROUND THE MIDDLE
15:34EAST THAT THEY, IN FACT, HAD TO
15:37DIG IN AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.
15:39I BELIEVE THAT PART OF THE
15:44REASON THAT ARAFAT DID NOT SAY
15:48YES AT THE END EVFR AFTER
15:50PROMISING PRESIDENT CLINTON HE
15:52WOULD SAY YES IS HE DIDN'T HAVE
15:54THE PROCESS OF THE UNITED
15:56STATES.
15:57I DON'T THINK IT'S AN EYE OF
15:58TAKING OUR EYE OFF THE BALL AS A
16:00MATTER RATHER THAN HAVING A
16:01DIFFERENT STRATEGY, AND THAT
16:03STRATEGY WAS UNDERMINED BY
16:05HAMAS' BRUTAL ATTACK ON OCTOBER
16:077th.
16:08>> AND LET'S JUST SHIFT TO
16:09UKRAINE, WHICH IS MASSIVELY,
16:11HUGELY IMPORTANT.
16:12THIS IS A MAJOR IMPERALISTIC
16:16POWER, RUSSIA, THAT'S INVADED A
16:18SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT, AND
16:19DEMOCRATIC NEIGHBOR.
16:20THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THROUGH
16:22ALL ITS MORAL AND MATERIAL
16:24SUPPORT TOWARDS DEFENDING
16:26UKRAINE, AND YET NOW WE'VE GOT A
16:29COMPLETE AND UPPER BOTTLENECK,
16:31LOGJAM, AND CUT OFF OF THESE
16:33SUPPLIES BECAUSE OF THE
16:34CONGRESS.
16:35DAVID CAMERON, THE FORMER PRIME
16:37MINISTER AND NOW FORMER MINISTER
16:39WHO'S BEEN IN WASHINGTON, THIS
16:41IS WHAT HE SAID TODAY WITH
16:42ANTONY BLINKEN.
16:43>> I COME HERE WITH NO INTENTION
16:47TO LECTURE ANYBODY OR TELL
16:48ANYBODY WHAT TO DO OR GET IN THE
16:49WAY OF THE PROCESS OF POLITICS
16:51AND OTHER THINGS IN THE UNITED
16:52STATES.
16:52I JUST COME HERE AS A GREAT
16:54FRIEND AND BELIEVER IN THIS
16:57COUNTRY AND A BELIEVER IT'S
16:59PROFOUNDLY IN YOUR INTEREST AND
17:01YOUR SECURITY AND YOUR FUTURE.
17:03>> SO BENDING OVER BACKWARDS NOT
17:05TO OFFEND THE MAGA REPUBLICANS
17:06OR INTERFERE IN DOMESTIC POLICY,
17:09BUT HE DID DO A PIT STOP TO
17:11MAR-A-LAGO AND DONALD TRUMP.
17:12WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN NOW?
17:14AND HOW WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT
17:16WHAT ZELENSKYY SAID, WE ARE
17:18GOING TO LOSE THIS WAR IF WE
17:20DON'T GET ANYMORE HELP?
17:21WHAT WILL THAT MEAN?
17:23WHAT WILL THAT LOOK LIKE?
17:24>> I THINK IT IS A COMPLETE AND
17:26UTTER DISASTER.
17:27IF PUTIN IS ALLOWED TO SUCCEED
17:32UKRAINE.
17:33HE WILL BELIEVE THAT HE CAN ACT
17:36WITH IMPUNITY AND THAT THE WORLD
17:38HAS ALLOWED HIM TO DO SO.
17:39I HOPE THAT SPEAKER JOHNSON
17:41UNDERSTANDS THAT THE BURDEN OF
17:42HISTORY IS WHETHER HE WANTS IT
17:43OR NOT RESTING ON HIS SHOULDERS,
17:45AND IT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT
17:47WHETHER HE GETS TO REMAIN
17:48SPEAKER OR NOT.
17:50IT SHOULD BE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS
17:53FOR DEMOCRACY FOR OUR OWN FUTURE
17:54AS WELL AS THE FUTURE OF EUROPE.
17:56NONE OF US WANT TO BE BACK
18:01FIGHTING ANY KIND OF A WAR IN
18:03EUROPE, AGAIN, A WIDER WAR IN
18:06EUROPE.
18:07WE WOULD INDEED I'M SURE PUTIN'S
18:10NEXT OBJECTIVE MIGHT BE A NATO
18:12COUNTRY, WHICH MEANS UNDER THE
18:14ARTICLES OF NATO WE WOULD HAVE
18:15TO COME TO THE DEFENSE OF THAT
18:17COUNTRY, AND SO WE WOULD BE ALL
18:19IN WITH TROOPS ON THE GROUND IN
18:20A WAY THAT WE ARE NOT.
18:22MOST OF THE MONEY YOUR VIEWERS
18:24SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT GOES TO
18:26UKRAINE ACTUALLY GOES TO THE
18:28U.S. MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
18:30TO BUILD WEAPONS.
18:32AND VERY LITTLE OF IT GOES TO
18:33SUPPORTING THE GOVERNING
18:35STRUCTURE OF UKRAINE SO THAT
18:36THEY CAN SURVIVE TO DEFEND
18:39THEMSELVES.
18:40THE STAKES HERE ARE BRUTAL AND
18:45INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.
18:47I'M GLAD THAT FOREIGN MINISTER
18:48CAMERON, FORMER PRIME MINISTER
18:50OF THE U.K., HAS BEEN HAVING
18:51THESE CONVERSATIONS WITH ALL
18:52PARTIES.
18:52AND I HOPE SPEAKER JOHNSON
18:54UNDERSTANDS THE BURDEN OF
18:55HISTORY IS ON HIS SHOULDERS.
18:56>> YEAH.
18:57IT APPEARS TO BE MAKE-OR-BREAK.
18:59WENDY SHERMAN, THANK YOU SO
19:00MUCH, INDEED, FOR BEING WITH US.
19:01>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
19:05>>> NOW, UNDER STEPPED UP
19:07AMERICAN PRESSURE MORE THAN 400
19:10HUMANITARIAN AID TRUCKS DID PASS
19:12INTO GAZA ON MONDAY, THE LARGEST
19:14SINGLE DAY DELIVERY SINCE
19:15OCTOBER 7th, BUT CONCERNS
19:17CONTINUE TO GROW AS FAMINE IS
19:18SETTING IN.
19:20AND THERE IS ONGOING FALLOUT
19:22FROM THE IDF'S ATTACK ON THE
19:24WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN CONVOY
19:26WHERE SEVEN AID WORKERS WERE
19:27KILLED.
19:28SO FAR AS WE SAID SOME 200 HAVE
19:31DIED IN THIS CONFLICT, THE VAST
19:33MAJORITY OF THEM PALESTINIANS.
19:35NOW, PERHAPS NO SINGLE INCIDENT
19:38CAPTURES THE TRAGIC VIOLENCE
19:40AROUND AID AS MUCH AS ISRAEL'S
19:41FLOWER DELIVERY ON FEBRUARY 29th
19:46WHICH TURNED CHAOTIC AND DEADLY.
19:48MORE THAN 100 PALESTINIANS WERE
19:51EITHER SHOT OR TRAMPLED TO
19:53DEATH.
19:54IN THIS REPORT OUR INVESTIGATIVE
19:55REPORTER GETS ACCESS TO NEVER
19:57BEFORE SEEN FOOTAGE TO DIG INTO
19:59EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.
20:00>> IT'S EARLY MORNING ON
20:03FEBRUARY 29th ON ALRA'SHEDE ROAD
20:04IN NARN GAZA.
20:06THOUSANDS OF STARVING PEOPLE
20:07HAVE GATHERED HERE TO RECEIVE
20:08FOOD.
20:08BUT AS THE AID TRUCKS ARRIVE,
20:14THIS HAPPENS.
20:15THE NIGHT WOULD BECOME KNOWN AS
20:19THE FLOUR MASSACRE.
20:20BY MORNING OVER 100 WOULD BE
20:22DEAD.
20:22IN ONE OF THE SINGLE BIGGEST
20:26MASS CASUALTY EVENTS OF THIS
20:28CONFLICT.
20:28CNN INVESTIGATED THIS INCIDENT,
20:31OBTAINING NEVER BEFORE SEEN
20:33VIDEOS OF THAT NIGHT, COLLECTING
20:34EVIDENCE FROM 22 EYEWITNESSES
20:36AND TRACING THE AID ITSELF ALL
20:37THE WAY TO A MUSLIM CHARITY IN
20:40THE U.K.
20:41IT WAS THE IDF THAT WAS THEN
20:44RESPONSIBLE FOR SAFELY
20:45DELIVERING THESE VITAL SUPPLIES.
20:47BUT WE FOUND THEY OPENED FIRE ON
20:49UNARMED STARVING PALESTINIANS AT
20:51CLOSE RANGE AS THE AID ARRIVED.
20:54THEIR EXPLANATION FOR THE
20:56TRAGEDY USING THIS DRONE VIDEO
20:58WAS A STAMPEDE THAT CAUSED
20:59SOLDIERS TO FIRE WARNING SHOTS
21:02IN THE AIR.
21:03THEY LATER ADMITTED TO FIRING
21:06SOME SHOTS DIRECTLY AT SO-CALLED
21:07SUSPECTS THAT APPROACHED THEM.
21:08BUT THE IDF FOOTAGE ISN'T
21:11COMPLETE.
21:11IT CUTS BETWEEN CROWDS
21:12SURROUNDING THE TRUCKS AND
21:13BODIES LYING ON THE GROUND.
21:15EVEN THIS REVEALS THEY WERE
21:16FIRING IN A DENSELY PACKED AREA,
21:18LIKELY TO CAUSE SEVERE
21:20BLOODSHED.
21:21CNN REQUESTED THE FULL FOOTAGE
21:23FROM THE IDF, BUT IT WAS DENIED.
21:27HE WAS AMONGST THE STARVING
21:29PALESTINIANS AND STARTED FILMING
21:31AS THE TRUCKS CROSSED INTO
21:33NORTHERN GAZA.
21:47VIDEOS FROM HIM AND ANOTHER KEY
21:50EYEWITNESS BELOW INDICATED THE
21:52GUNFIRE STARTED EARLIER THAN THE
21:53IDF CLAIM.
21:54THE IDF PUBLISHED THIS TIME LINE
21:56SAYING THE TRUCKS ARRIVED AT THE
21:59CHECKPOINT AT 4:00 A.M. THEY
22:01THEN CROSSED AT 4:29 AND ONLY
22:03AFTER THAT DID THE IDF FIRE
22:05SHOTS AT THE CROWD.
22:06BUT IN HIS VIDEO FILMED 7
22:10MINUTES EARLIER AT 4:22 A.M.,
22:13GUNSHOTS RING OUT.
22:14HE WARNS THERE'S A TANK.
22:16THE IDF CLAIM THE CONVOY WAS
22:19STILL STATIONARY AT THE
22:21CHECKPOINT AT THIS TIME.
22:27NEXT HE BEGINS FILMING.
22:29IT'S NOW 4:28 A.M. AND THERE'S A
22:32BARRAGE OF GUNFIRE AND THE SHOTS
22:34ARE CLOSE.
22:36ANALYSIS OF WEAPONS EXPERTS OF
22:37THE BERTH INDICATE IT'S HEAVY
22:40AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE AT AROUND 600
22:44PER MINUTE.
22:45HE KEEPS FILMING.
22:47A TANK IS BESIDE ME.
22:49WE'RE NOW UNDER SIEGE, HE SAYS.
22:50MOMENTS LATER YOU SEE A TRUCK
22:53DRIVING ALONG THE ROAD.
22:54WE SPOTTED TRACE FROM THE
22:55GUNFIRE HERE.
22:56ONE CAN BE SEEN RICOCHETTING UP
22:59HERE, ACCORDING TO WEAPONS
23:00EXPERTS.
23:14AS DAY BROKE, THE NUMBER OF DEAD
23:16AND INJURED THAT EMERGED WERE
23:22STAGGERING.
23:22INTERVIEWS WITH SURVIVORS AT
23:23HOSPITALS AFTERWARDS FOUND SOME
23:24PEOPLE HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE
23:25UPPER BODY.
23:28AMID THE DEVASTATION, CNN FOUND
23:30A CLUE AS TO WHO HAD DELIVERED
23:33THIS AID.
23:33THIS BOX WITH THE WRITING OF
23:37WELFARE TRUST.
23:37>> THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT
23:39THE AID HAD REACHED NORTHERN
23:41GAZA, AND WE WERE VERY, VERY
23:42EXCITED ASKED HAPPY THAT FINALLY
23:44WE HAD GONE THROUGH.
23:47>> THEY RECEIVED THE TERRIBLE
23:49NEWS AS WHAT HAPPENED BY
23:51WHATSAPP.
23:52>> I WOKE UP TO PHOTOS OF
23:55CARDBOARD BOXES WITH BLOODSTAINS
23:56ON THEM.
23:57AND IT CAME AS A SHOCK.
23:58THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN 20
24:00YEARS WHERE I'VE ACTUALLY SEEN
24:03BLOOD BEING MIXED WITH AID.
24:05>> IN ALL AT LEAST 118 DIED THAT
24:10DAY.
24:10WITH THE U.N. STRUGGLING TO
24:11ACCESS NORTHERN GAZA, THE IDF
24:14ARE RESPONSIBLE IN ENSURING AID
24:17ARRIVES SAFELY.
24:17DESPITE THIS, THE U.N. HAS
24:19DOCUMENTED TWO DOZEN ATTACKS ON
24:22PALESTINIANS AWAITING AID IN THE
24:25LAST THREE MONTHS ALONE.
24:26FOR THOSE LIKE JIHAD LIVING ON
24:29THE VERGE OF FAMINE, IT HAS LED
24:31TO A DESPERATE FIGHT FOR
24:34SURVIVAL.
24:35AND NOW THAT FIGHT BECOMES MORE
24:37CHALLENGING THAN EVER.
24:45>> KATIE -- WITH THAT
24:46INVESTIGATIVE REPORT.
24:47AND TO NOTE THE IDF HAVE NOT YET
24:49RESPONDED TO OUR QUESTIONS ON
24:50THESE FINDINGS.
24:51>>> NEXT, WE TURN THE CLOCKS
24:53BACK TO AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY
24:55TO SOMEONE MANY KNOW AS
24:58AMERICA'S FIRST DIPLOMAT,
24:58BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
24:59A NEW APPLE TV SERIES "FRANKLIN"
25:02TELLS THE STORY OF HIS MISSION
25:04TO FRANCE IN 1776 TO SECURE
25:06SUPPORT FOR AMERICAN
25:08INDEPENDENCE.
25:09ACADEMY AWARD WINNER MICHAEL
25:11DOUGLAS SPEAKS TO WALTER
25:14ISAACSON ABOUT TAKING ON THE
25:15ROLE OF THIS FOUNDING FATHER.
25:17>> MICHAEL DOUGLAS, WELCOME TO
25:18THE SHOW.
25:19>> HI, WALTER.
25:20NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
25:21>> YOU PLAY BENJAMIN FRANKLIN IN
25:24FRANCE BASED ON STACEY SHIFT'S
25:27BOOK, THE GREAT UMPROVISATION
25:30FOR THIS LIMITED SERIES.
25:34AND STACEY SHIFT BEGINS THE BOOK
25:35BY SAYING IN DECEMBER 1776 A
25:37SMALL BOAT DELIVERED AN OLD MAN
25:39TO FRANCE, AND THERE'S THAT
25:42SCENE WHERE HE'S MOBBED AS HE'S
25:44GOING INTO PARIS.
25:46WHY IS HE SO FAMOUS?
25:47>> DURING THE HOMEWORK FOR THIS
25:49SHOW, IT WAS STUNNING WHAT THIS
25:51MAN HAD ACCOMPLISHED IN HIS
25:52LIFE.
25:53WE KNOW ABOUT HIM AS A WRITER
25:55AND AS A PRINTER AND AS A
25:56PUBLISHER.
25:57THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA,
26:01LIBRARIES, POST OFFICE, AND THEN
26:02ALL OF THE INVENTIONS.
26:04AND I THINK PROBABLY IT WAS
26:06ELECTRICITY AND THE FACT
26:10ELECTRICITY WAS FOR THE ENTIRE
26:12WORLD JUST WAS SOMETHING SO
26:14UNBELIEVABLE, IT WAS FROM OUTER
26:17SPACE, THAT MADE HIM SO FAMOUS.
26:19>> DO THEY MEAN TO ATTACK US?
26:21>> THEY MEAN TO SEE ME.
26:23THEY HAVE IT IN THEIR HEADS I
26:26INVENTED ELECTRICITY.
26:27WHO AM I TO DISSUADE THEM?
27:18>> AND IN FRANCE IS WHERE THEY
27:19ACTUALLY PERFORM FOR THE FIRST
27:20TIME HIS ELECTRICITY EXPERIMENTS
27:22ON THE LIGHTEN ROD, SO THEY
27:24CONSIDER HIM SOMEBODY WHO
27:25SNATCHED FIRE FROM THE HEAVENS,
27:28SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN FUN TO DO
27:30IT.
27:30WHY WOULD YOU DO A PERIOD PIECE?
27:33I DON'T THINK YOU'VE EVER DONE
27:34ONE BEFORE.
27:34>> NO, I'VE NEVER DONE A PERIOD
27:37PIECE, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE
27:39BASIC REASONS WHY I WANTED TO DO
27:42IT.
27:42THE LAST YEARS IN MY CAREER I'VE
27:43BEEN TRYING DIFFERENT THINGS,
27:46COMEDY OR GREEN SCREEN.
27:49BUT, YOU KNOW, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
27:50WAS LIKE, WOW, SO I DIDN'T LEARN
27:55MUCH MORE THAN WHAT I REMEMBERED
27:56FROM MY HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.
27:57AND THIS WHOLE CHAPTER, WHICH I
28:00DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT AND
28:03THOUGHT WAS SO FASCINATING.
28:05WHICH WAS AFTER 70 YEARS OLD AND
28:07ALL HE'S ACCOMPLISHED AND
28:08FINISHING UP HIS WORK ON THE
28:10DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IN
28:11JULY -- FINISHED SIGNING JULY 4,
28:171776, AND SEVEN WEEKS LATER
28:19TOGETHER THEY DECIDED THEY'VE
28:20GOT TO SEND FRANKLIN TO FRANCE
28:22BECAUSE THE COUNTRY WAS BROKE.
28:25THEY'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF
28:26THE WAR WITH THE BRITISH.
28:28YOU KNOW, THEIR ARMY IS RAGTAG.
28:30THEY HAVE NO WEAPONS, NO SHIPS,
28:32AND EVERYTHING ELSE.
28:33SO THEY SEND FRANKLIN TO FRANCE
28:34TO GET THEIR SUPPORT.
28:35I MEAN I FOUND IT SO IRONIC THAT
28:38THIS NEW DEMOCRACY WOULD TAKE
28:40ONE OF THE BIGGEST MONARCHIES IN
28:42THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO
28:45SUPPORT THEM.
28:47AND THAT'S THE ONE QUESTION I'M
28:48GOING TO HAVE FOR YOU.
28:49HOW DID HE EVEN IMAGINE HE WAS
28:51GOING TO SUCCEED?
28:54AND AS STACEY'S BOOK TITLE SAYS
28:58"THE GREAT IMPROVISATION," BUT
29:01ALL HE'S ACHIEVE HE DIDN'T KNOW
29:05WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO.
29:08SO HE TOOK HIS GRANDSON WHO HE
29:11SORT OF NURTURED WITH HIM TO
29:13TEMPLE.
29:13AND SIX WEEKS AFTER THE
29:14DECLARATION HE'S TAKING A
29:16TWO-MONTH TRIP ACROSS THE SEA TO
29:17FRANCE TO TRY TO WOO THE FRENCH
29:21TO SUPPORT THE AMERICANS IN
29:22THIS -- IN THIS NEW VENTURE.
29:24>> WELL, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION
29:28ONE REASON HE SUCCEEDS IS
29:29BECAUSE HE PRINTS THINGS.
29:30HE BECOMES A PROPAGANDIST
29:32ALMOST, AND HIS GRANDSON,
29:35TEMPLE, IS HELPING HIM WITH THE
29:37PRINTING PRESS AS THEY PRINT THE
29:38GREAT DOCUMENTS COMING OUT OF
29:40AMERICA.
29:41>> NOT BAD BUT SWIFT WITH THE
29:43LEVER.
29:44IMPRESSION MUST BE EVEN.
29:46WATCH.
30:16>> I CAN PRINT 500 PAGES A DAY,
30:22BUT DON'T WORRY, BOY, I'VE GOT
30:24OTHER PLANS FOR YOU.
30:25>> I MIGHT HAVE PLANS OF MY OWN,
30:30YOU KNOW?
30:31>> SUCH AS?
30:32>> NEVER MIND.
30:35>> NO.
30:35I'M ALL EARS.
30:37>> WELL, I INTEND TO LIVE
30:39PLEASANTLY, TO HAVE AND
30:42ENTERTAIN FRIENDS AND HAVE
30:44ADVENTURES, TO RESIDE IN A HOUSE
30:47LIKE THIS, AND BE REGARDED WITH
30:48WIT AND AS A GENTLEMAN.
30:50>> PERHAPS IT IS BEST FOR YOU TO
30:51LEARN TRADE AFTER ALL.
30:52>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
30:55THAT RELATION WITH TEMPLE THAT I
30:58LOVE.
30:59>> TEMPLE WAS SORT OF A BASTARD.
31:05HE DIDN'T KNOW WHO HIS MOTHER
31:08WAS, HE WAS GROWING UP WITH ANY
31:09SUPPORT IN THE U.K. IN ENGLAND.
31:13AND BECAUSE OF HIS OWN CONFLICT
31:14WITH HIS SON WILLIAM WHO WAS
31:16GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY AND
31:17BASICALLY ALLOWED HIS SON TO BE
31:20IMPRISONED AS A LOYALIST, I
31:24THINK THAT PROBABLY THERE'S SOME
31:25GUILT IN BEN.
31:27HE TOOK THIS YOUNG MAN OVER,
31:29WHICH TO BE WITH HIM -- WITH ALL
31:33THE STRENGTHS THAT FRANKLIN HAD,
31:35I DON'T THINK YOU CAN CALL HIM A
31:36REALLY GOOD FAMILY MAN PER SE.
31:39CERTAINLY I WOULD NOT HAVE
31:41WANTED TO BE MARRIED TO HIM.
31:43BUT HE TOOK HIM OVER AND ALLOWED
31:45US IN THE 8 HOURS TO DO ANOTHER
31:49SORT OF SUBPLOT OF A YOUNG
31:50GENERATION, OF A YOUNG PERSON
31:54THAT HASN'T TRAVELED BEING
31:56INTRODUCED AND INTEGRATED INTO
31:57THIS KIND OF WILD, FRENCH
32:02SOCIETY, ALLOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE
32:03INVOLVED.
32:04SO IT BECAME A GOOD PARALLEL TO
32:07WHAT WAS GOING ON.
32:08>> NOAH DUPE PLAYS TEMP, AND I
32:12LOVE THOSE SCENES BECAUSE YOU
32:13WATCH HIM TRYING TO HAVE TO
32:15FIGURE OUT FRENCH SOCIETY, IN
32:16SOME WAYS A METAPHOR FOR THE
32:19WHOLE THING IS US TRYING TO
32:20FIGURE OUT EUROPEAN SOCIETY
32:21THEN.
32:21>> IT WAS.
32:22AND I THINK THE EXCITING PART WE
32:24HAD WAS NOT KNOWING WHO WAS ON
32:27YOUR SIDE.
32:28OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A TREMENDOUS
32:29NUMBER OF SPIES THAT EXISTED ALL
32:31AROUND, A LOT OF BACK STABBING.
32:34AND I THINK THAT FRANKLIN
32:37FRUSTRATED CERTAINLY JOHN ADAMS
32:40AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE FOR
32:41THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT WAS TAKING
32:44HIM AS WASHINGTON WAS STRUGGLING
32:45WITH HIS ARMY TO KEEP OUR IDEA
32:48OF DEMOCRACY ALIVE.
32:50>> GEORGE WASHINGTON SAID THE
32:51GAME IS PRETTY MUCH UP.
32:52THAT'S IN STACEY SCHIFF'S BOOK
32:56WHEN FRANKLIN GOES OVER THERE.
32:57AND HE HAS TO DO SOMETHING WE'RE
32:59NOT VERY GOOD AT TODAY, WHICH IS
33:03SHOW BOTH IDEALISM AND REALISM,
33:05THIS SORT OF BALANCE OF POWER
33:07GAME.
33:08SO HE'S VERY DEXTEROUS IN HOW HE
33:09PULLS THEM IN.
33:10HOW DO YOU TRY TO CONVEY THAT
33:17WILINESS OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN?
33:18>> WELL, HOPEFULLY WITH A LOOK
33:20HERE OR A LOOK THERE OR PEOPLE
33:22KNOWING HOW HE ACTUALLY FEELS
33:23ABOUT PEOPLE AND HOW HE TREATS
33:25THEM.
33:25I MEAN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH --
33:30IS EXTRAORDINARY.
33:30I MEAN HE BROUGHT HIM IN LIKE
33:32THEY MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE
33:33BROTHERS.
33:34>> YEAH, THE FRENCH FOREIGN
33:37MINISTER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
33:39>> YEAH, THE FRENCH FOREIGN
33:41MINISTER, WHO WAS REALLY HIS
33:42POINT MAN IN TERMS OF DEALING
33:43WITH THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT AND
33:46WAS SO SUPPORTIVE OF FRANKLIN,
33:49YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH
33:51MONEY THEY WEREIBLE TO GET.
33:53THE OTHER THING THAT, YOU KNOW,
33:55REALLY STRUCK HOME WHEN WE SPEAK
33:58ABOUT HIM BEING 70 WHEN HE FIRST
34:01ARRIVES IN 1800 THE AVERAGE AGE
34:03FOR AN AMERICAN WAS 39 YEARS
34:06OLD.
34:06SO FRANKLIN WAS ALREADY 70.
34:11I SAY HE MADE JOE BIDEN LOOK
34:13REALLY GOOD IN MY OPINION.
34:14I MEAN FOR HIM TO TAKE ON ALL
34:17THIS AT THAT AGE AND WITH THE
34:19GOUT WAS VERY IMPRESSIVE.
34:21AND I THINK JUST THE YEARS OF
34:23EXPERIENCE AND HIS ABILITY TO
34:25READ PEOPLE, JUST TO KIND OF GET
34:27A SENSE OF WHO THEY ARE.
34:30AND HIS WILLINGNESS TO SEEM VERY
34:37ACCESSIBLE.
34:37YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE NOT
34:38THREATENED BY HIM.
34:40HE MAY BE FAMOUS AND A FAMOUS
34:42STAR, BUT HE BROUGHT EVERYBODY
34:45IN AND IT WAS HIS KIND OF
34:47VULNERABILITY.
34:47I THINK IT WAS A GREAT
34:49PERFORMANCE.
34:50I DON'T THINK THAT'S NECESSARILY
34:51WHO HE WAS, BUT IT WAS ONE OF
34:53THE MOST AMAZING EFFORTS I COULD
34:55EVER BELIEVE THAT WHY THIS
34:59MONARCHY ENDS UP SUPPORTING A
35:00DEMOCRACY.
35:01AND I MUST SAY -- YOU KNOW THIS
35:03BETTER THAN ME -- IT WASN'T SOON
35:05AFTER THIS.
35:06I DON'T KNOW IF HE TOTALLY
35:07BANKROLLED THE FRENCH
35:08GOVERNMENT, IT'S NOT A FEW YEARS
35:11LATER WHEN WE HAVE THE FRENCH
35:13REVOLUTION.
35:13IT'S ANOTHER AREA WHERE HE
35:14PLAYED A KEY PART I THINK.
35:19>> AND FRANKLIN WHEN HE ARRIVES
35:21HE DOESN'T WEAR A WIG.
35:22SHE SOMETIMES WEARS A FUR CAP AS
35:24IF HE'S A BACK WOODSMAN.
35:26AND YOU PORTRAY HIM VERY WELL AS
35:28IF HE'S HAVING A COMMON TOUCH
35:30BUT ALSO PRETENDING TO HAVE A
35:32COMMON TOUCH.
35:33>> THANK YOU.
35:34THANK YOU FOR GETTING THAT,
35:36WALTER.
35:36YEAH, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT
35:38BECAUSE THAT WAS ONE OF THE
35:39THINGS I WAS REALLY FASCINATED
35:41ABOUT WHERE HE WAS WITH HIS
35:42PRESENCE.
35:43HE KNEW HE WAS SORT OF A ROCK
35:45STAR, SO WHAT DID HE DO IS HE
35:47PLAYED HUMILITY.
35:48AND ESPECIALLY I THOUGHT IT
35:49WORKED OUT SO WELL.
35:51ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT
35:53PRODUCTION-WISE THAT I LOVE
35:54ABOUT THE PICTURE IS THE EXTRAS.
35:56I MEAN WE'RE HAVING 4, 500
35:59EXTRAS OF THE COURT ALL IN FULL
36:01WIGS AND UNBELIEVABLE COSTUMES.
36:02AND IT REALLY -- IT REALLY
36:07HELPED GIVE SOME MILLITUDE AND
36:11MADE HIM LOOK LIKE PLAYING A
36:13SIMPLE MAN.
36:13I'M CURIOUS TO ASK YOU, TOO, YOU
36:16REALLY COULD SAY FRANKLIN WAS
36:17SORT OF THE BEGINNING OF THE
36:19MIDDLE CLASS.
36:20YOU KNOW, HE REPRESENTS A
36:22WORKING CLASS THAT COULD
36:23ACTUALLY FUNCTION AND MAKE MONEY
36:25RATHER THAN ROYALTY OR POVERTY.
36:30AND THE CAP WAS SORT OF PICKED
36:32UP BY DANIEL BOOM AND I GUESS
36:37DAVY CROCKET BUT WAS TO A
36:41SIMPLER TIME AND THE RUSTIC
36:43FUTURE AMERICA HELD.
36:45>> THE OPENING HAS A THEME IN
36:47WHICH STATE CRAFT,
36:49DIPOLICEMENACY IS ACTUALLY
36:50STAGECRAFT.
36:50AND THERE'S BEEN FRANKLIN NOT
36:53ONLY BEING A DIPLOMAT BUT
36:54PLAYING A ROLE, SETTING A STAGE.
36:55>> TELL ME WHAT SORT OF MAN IS
37:01THE FOREIGN MINISTER.
37:04>> WHAT SORT?
37:05>> YEAH.
37:07>> YOU SEE WHERE WE ARE.
37:09HERE ONE NIGHT YOU MIGHT PLAY
37:12THE LOVER, THE NEXT A KING,
37:14AFTER THAT A BEGGAR.
37:17BUT WHO ARE YOU REALLY?
37:22>> YOU ARE WHAT THE RULE
37:24REQUIRES YOU TO BE.
37:25>> WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER
37:26PERFECTLY.
37:26>> I THINK YOU START IN THE
37:28BEGINNING AND YOU GET A SENSE OF
37:30THE CROWDS WHEN HE ARRIVES IN
37:32PARIS AND HIS NOTORIETY, AND HE
37:35CREATES THIS HUMBLE -- THIS
37:39HUMBLE BEING.
37:40AND THEN HE HAD SUCH GREAT WIT
37:42AND A SENSE OF HUMOR AND A KIND
37:49OF IDIOSYNCRASIES OF THE
37:52SITUATION HE WAS IN.
37:53I ADMIRE HE SEEMS TUESDAY BE A
37:55MAGICIAN WHERE HE BALANCES BOTH
37:57SIDE.
37:57HE'S KIND OF EVALUATING
37:59SITUATIONS.
38:00AND I THINK THIS SERVES HIM VERY
38:03WELL.
38:03AS A MAN -- YOU KNOW, AS
38:05GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA FOR
38:06ENGLAND YOU HAD SOME IDEAS OF
38:10HOW TO HANDLE HIMSELF, BUT IT
38:11WAS REALLY FASCINATING TO WATCH
38:14HIM WIND HIS WAY THROUGH THE
38:30ARISTOCRACY UP THROUGH THE
38:31GOVERNMENT.
38:32>> IN THE BOOK IT SAYS
38:35GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT BE A
38:36SIEGE, IT SHOULD BE A SEDUCTION.
38:38YOU SEE IN THE SERIES HOW HE
38:40DOES THAT.
38:41AND EVEN METAPHORICALLY HE HAS
38:46TWO OF HIS I GUESS WE COULD SAY
38:49MISTRESSES.
38:50TELL ME ABOUT THEM.
38:54[ SPEAKING GLOBAL LANGUAGE ]
39:05>> WELL, I THINK -- WELL, FIRST
39:10OF ALL I HAVE TO SAY, WALTER,
39:10THAT -- AND I APPRECIATED
39:15STACEY'S BOOK.
39:15I'VE GOT A LOT OF INFORMATION
39:17OUT OF YOUR BIOGRAPHY ON
39:18FRANKLIN, A LOT OF PERSONAL, YOU
39:20KNOW, CHARACTER STUFF.
39:21AND CONGRATULATIONS, IT WAS A
39:23GREAT JOB.
39:24HE -- HE HAD AN EYE FOR THE
39:27WOMEN.
39:27HE -- HE JUST LOVED WOMEN.
39:32EVEN AT 70 YEARS OLD WHEN HE WAS
39:34OVER THERE, SO I DON'T SAY
39:36EVERYTHING WAS SEXUALLY RELATED,
39:38BUT HE LOVED TO SWEET TALK TO
39:44WOMEN.
39:44MADAM WAS MARRIED AND HAD A MORE
39:48ETHEREAL PRESENCE.
39:52HELVIV WAS A LITTLE MORE CARNAL
39:54I THINK.
39:55BUT I WOULD IMAGINE JUST WITH
39:56THE KIND OF PRESSURE HE WAS
39:58UNDER THIS WAS HIS WAY OF
40:02RELAXINGP HE SORT OF LIKED TO
40:03EMBIBE, WE KNOW THAT, TOO.
40:05BUT HE LOVED THE LADIES AND HE
40:08ENJOYED -- HE KNEW HOW TO SPEAK
40:09TO THEM, WAS VERY, VERY
40:12FRIENDLY.
40:12IT WASN'T A QUESTION OF GOING
40:14ANYWHERE.
40:14>> IT KIND OF PALLED JOHN ADAMS
40:18AND JOHN ADAMS' WIFE, ABIGAIL,
40:23BECAUSE THEY'RE IN PARIS AS
40:24WELL.
40:24BUT THERE'S QUITE A CONTRAST
40:26BETWEEN THEM.
40:27WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT
40:29FRANKLIN'S CHARACTER, HOW THAT
40:30HELPED THEM.
40:30THE FRENCH HAD NO REASON TO GET
40:32ON OUR SIDE DURING THE
40:34REVOLUTION.
40:34HE ALMOST SEDUCED THE MAN.
40:35>> HE DID.
40:36AND THIS WAS THE QUESTION IN THE
40:38BEGINNING, TOO, THE HARDEST
40:39THING TO UNDERSTAND.
40:42JOHN ADAMS SORT OF GAVE ME THE
40:43PARALLELS TO SOME THINGS GOING
40:44ON TODAY.
40:46AND I WAS THINKING AS THEY WERE
40:48KNOCKING THEIR HEADS, YOU KNOW,
40:50WORKING OUT THIS DECLARATION OF
40:52INDEPENDENCE, AND YOU REALLY
40:53FELT LIKE TWO SIDES THAT WERE
40:55GOING ON, ALMOST LIKE TWO
40:57DIFFERENT PARTIES.
40:58AND IDENTIFY REALIZE, THOUGH,
41:00HOW ALL THEIR FOCUS AND
41:02CONCENTRATION WAS ON THIS FORM
41:03OF GOVERNMENT, CREATING A
41:06DEMOCRACY.
41:07AND WORKING ON THE SHOW MADE ME
41:12REALLY APPRECIATE HOW
41:14VULNERABLE, HOW FRAGILE THIS
41:15SENSE OF DEMOCRACY WAS.
41:17AND WHEN YOU SAW THE TWO OF THEM
41:18GOING AT EACH OTHER, YOU ALWAYS
41:21KNEW IT WAS FOR THE BETTER.
41:23IT WAS TO CREATE THIS STATE.
41:26AND TODAY YOU FEEL LIKE MUCH
41:27MORE PEOPLE GOING AT EACH OTHER
41:29TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER RATHER
41:31THAN WORK TOWARDS A BETTER
41:35DEMOCRACY.
41:35BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPERFECT
41:37SOLUTION.
41:37I MEAN IT'S NOT AN ANSWER TO IT.
41:39IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE
41:40EVOLVING.
41:41>> WAS THIS FEELING ABOUT
41:43DEMOCRACY AND YOUR WORRY ABOUT
41:48DEMOCRACY NOW, IS THAT ONE OF
41:49THE REASONS YOU WANTED TO DO
41:51THIS?
41:51IS IT SORT OF TIED INTO TODAY?
41:53>> NOT ACTUALLY, THOUGH.
41:54IT HAPPENED AS IT EVOLVED AND I
41:58WAS WORKING ON IT I SAW THOSE
42:01COMPARISONS.
42:02THE SITUATION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND
42:03UKRAINE REMIND ME OF ENGLAND AND
42:05THIS NEW COUNTRY, AMERICA.
42:08THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS.
42:10SO IT'S IMPORTANT AS WE'RE
42:12COMING INTO OUR 250th
42:14ANNIVERSARY AT A TIME WHEN I'M
42:18MORE AWARE THE FRAGILITY OF WHAT
42:21WE HAVE.
42:22AUTOCRACIES SEEM TO BE BUDDING
42:24UP ALL OVER THE WORLD.
42:26DEMOCRACIES ARE AN ENDANGERED
42:29PROCESS, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT
42:32HELPS HOPEFULLY -- AS A SIDE
42:37NOTE WE'LL MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF.
42:40>> MICHAEL DOUGLAS, THANK YOU.
42:42>> LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING
42:43THAT ONE.
42:44FINALLY, MAMA MIA.
42:45IT HAS BEEN 25 YEARS SINCE THE
42:47HUGELY SUCCESSFUL MUSICAL FIRST
42:48HIT LONDON'S WEST END.
42:49THAT'S A QUARTER OF A CENTURY OF
42:52AUDIENCES DANCING IN THE AISLES
42:54TO ABBA'S ENDURINGLY BELOVED
42:58MUSIC.
42:58IT'S COME TO 60 COUNTRIES
43:01WORLDWIDE AND THERE'S BEEN TWO
43:02HIT FILMS.
43:03♪♪
43:08♪ HAVING THE TIME OF YOUR LIFE
43:11SEE THAT GIRL WATCH THAT SCENE
43:15DIGGING THE DANCING QUEEN ♪
43:17>> THE MUSICAL IS THE BRAINCHILD
43:19OF PRODUCER JUDY KRAMER WHO
43:22PERIDSWAD ARBBBA TO TAKE A
43:25CHANCE WEAVING A FEEL GOOD STORY
43:29INTO THOSE SONGS.
43:29I WENT TO THE WEST END TO MEET
43:32KRAMER ABOUT THE 25 YEARS AND
43:34ASKING HER HOW IT TOOK A VILLAGE
43:35OF WOMEN TO MAKE IT ALL HAPPEN.
43:43JUDY CRAMER, WELCOME TO THE
43:44PROGRAM.
43:44>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
43:47>> IT'S A MILESTONE BREAKER.
43:48EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO MEASURE
43:50IT BY.
43:52WERE YOU SURPRISED IT LASTED
43:53THIS LONG?
43:54>> OF COURSE.
43:54I'M ALWAYS SURPRISED AT "MAMA
44:00MIA" AND ITS SUCCESS.
44:01NO PRODUCER SETS OUT A WITH
44:04MASTER PLAN OF 25 YEARS.
44:05>> WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE TO?
44:10>> I THINK ABBA'S MUSIC IS
44:13AMAZING, EUPHORIC.
44:16IT'S THE STORY, THE STORY A OF A
44:21MOTHER AND DAUGHTER.
44:22EVERYTHING, THE CHARACTERS I
44:25THINK PEOPLE RELATE TO
44:29THEMSELVES.
44:30IT STELES A STORY OF FRIENDSHIP,
44:31HOPE, SECOND CHANCES.
44:32>> LOVE.
44:35>> LOVE.
44:35IT'LL BUILT SO MANY FOUNDATIONS
44:36AND THEMES, AND I THINK THAT'S
44:38WHAT SUSTAINED IT.
44:46>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE STORY
44:48BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST AS
44:50SOMEBODY SAYS A JUKEBOX MUSICAL.
44:53IT'S NOT LIKE YOU GRABBED ALL
44:55THE BEST ABBA HITS AND DECIDED
44:57TO WRITE SOME LINES BETWEEN IT
44:59TO MAKE A MUSICAL.
45:00WHAT DID YOU DO ALONG WITH YOUR
45:03FEMALE WRITER AND FEMALE
45:04DIRECTOR?
45:05>> RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING WHEN
45:08I LEARNT IT ALL, AND THE WINNER
45:15TAKES IT ALL, MY FAVORITE SONG.
45:19I FELT IT COMPELLED ME THERE
45:21SHOULD BE A STAGE MUSICAL.
45:24BUT IT SHOULD BE AN ORIGINAL
45:26MUSICAL.
45:27I REALLY DON'T LOVE THE TERM
45:31JUKEBOX PEOPLE HAVE USED BECAUSE
45:33IT'S PUT IN POPULAR MUSIC ON
45:35STAGE.
45:35IT'S MORE OF A POP MUSICAL THAN
45:38ANYTHING.
45:38BUT THE SONGS HAD TO EARN THEIR
45:39PLACE.
45:40AND CATHERINE JOHNSON'S STORY
45:41DID THAT.
45:45SHE PUT THOSE WONDERFUL ABBA
45:47SONGS INTO CONTEXT SO YOU CAN
45:49LAUGH, YOU COULD CRY.
45:49THEY BECAME A DIALOGUE.
45:51>> AND IT'S A DIALOGUE THAT
45:53RESONATES.
45:53WHEN I WATCHED IT AND I'M SURE
45:55EVERY NIGHT IT'S
45:57MULTIGENERATIONAL.
45:57IT'S NOT JUST THOSE OF US WHO
46:00REMEMBER ABBA WINNING THE EURO
46:09VISION CONTEXT IN 1944.
46:12I WONDER YOU HAVE MANAGED TO
46:15HAVE THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH
46:16ABBA, PARTICULARLY THE TWO MEN,
46:19RIGHT, WHO WROTE THE SONGS AND
46:20WHO ARE THE MAIN BUSINESS
46:21LEADERS.
46:21HOW DID YOU DO THAT?
46:23>> I THINK TO BECOME PARTNERS
46:29WITH TWO LEGENDARY, TO ME IT
46:31SEEMED VERY ORGANIC AT THE TIME,
46:33BUT I HAD WORKED WITH THEM IN
46:35THE '80s, SO THEY KNEW ME SO I
46:38DIDN'T COME FROM COMPLETELY
46:39OUTSIDE KNOCKING ON THEIR DOOR.
46:41BUT I HAD NO BIG TRACK RECORD,
46:42BUT THEY KIND OF TRUSTED ME, AND
46:45THEY KIND OF LIKED THE IDEA.
46:46AND BASICALLY WE WORKED OUT A
46:48PLAN.
46:48THEY WOULD GIVE ME THE MUSIC IF
46:51THEY WERE HAPPY WITH EVERYTHING,
46:52AND I'D PUT IN THE HARD WORK.
46:54>> DID THEY JUST TRUST YOU TO DO
46:56GOOD WITH THEIR MUSIC?
46:59WERE THEY EASY, DIFFICULT TO
47:01WORK WITH?
47:04>> WE JUST HAVE -- ACTUALLY, WE
47:07KIND OF JOKE ABOUT THE
47:08RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE I THINK
47:09THEIR CAUTION WAS MY DRIVE.
47:10THEY HAD COME TO ME SAYING, NO,
47:13JUDY, WE CAN'T DO THAT, AND I'D
47:15BE LIKE, OH, OKAY.
47:18SO IT WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE
47:19STARTING AS A VERY LITTLE
47:21MUSICAL, MAYBE KIND OF OUT OF
47:23TOWN ALFREDO AND WE ENDED UP
47:26OPENING 20 YEARS AGO IN ONE OF
47:30THE BIGGEST THEATERS.
47:33NO, WE WEREN'T GOING TO DO
47:34BROADWAY, NO, WE WEREN'T GOING
47:36TO DO A FILM.
47:37AND I THINK I PROVED TO THEM
47:39HOPEFULLY NOW EVERYTHING'S
47:41WORKING.
47:41BUT THEY WERE VERY COLLABORATIVE
47:44BECAUSE, THOUGH, THEY HAD A
47:45SENSE OF CAUTION, WHY WOULDN'T
47:47THEY?
47:49THEY HAD THIS INCREDIBLE CANON
47:49OF WORK.
47:50THEY DIDN'T WANT ME TO SEND IT
47:51UP IN SMOKE.
47:52>> FROM WHAT I READ IT COST 3
47:54MILLION POUNDS AT THE TIME TO
47:56PUT ON, AND IT'S NOW GROSSED
47:58$4.5 BILLION WORLDWIDE IN 25
48:00YEARS.
48:00WHAT ABOUT THE FILM?
48:03YOU'VE GOT TWO FILMS.
48:06FAMOUSLY YOU HAVE THE GREAT
48:10MERYL STREEP AS THE LEAD
48:11CHARACTER, THE MOTHER.
48:12YOU MANAGE TODAY GET SHER FOR
48:15THE SECOND FILM.
48:16TELL US HOW YOU GOT MERYL
48:18STREEP?
48:18>> WHEN IT CAME TO CASTING THE
48:21MOVIE THE DIRECTOR AND MYSELF
48:23LOVED THE IDEA OF MERYL STREEP.
48:28THAT WAS OUR DREAM TO GET MERYL.
48:30IT HAPPENED SHE HAD SEEN "MAMA
48:34MIA" ON BROADWAY IN 2009 SOON
48:38AFTER 9/11.
48:38AND SHE LOVED IT, AND SHE WROTE
48:42TO THE CAST OF THE BROAD
48:45KAYSAYING SHE LOVED IT, AND HER
48:48DREAM WAS TO GO ON THE STAGE OF
48:50MAMA MIA, MUCH TO EMBARRASSMENT
48:52OF HER CHILDREN, I THINK.
48:54WHEN WE APPROACHED HER SHE SAID
48:58I'M IN.
49:01♪♪
49:07>> DID YOU KNOW THAT SHE COULD
49:09SING BECAUSE SHE'S GOT A GREAT
49:10VOICE.
49:11>> YEAH, WE KNEW SHE COULD SING.
49:13YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO ASK MERYL
49:16STREEP TO AUDITION WOOZ WE
49:19DIDN'T ASK ANY OF THE LEADS.
49:20>> AND YOU DIDN'T.
49:21>> WE DIDN'T.
49:24SHE SINGS AT THE END POST CAST
49:27BEAUTIFULLYCH WE KNEW SHE WANTED
49:28TO SING.
49:29SHE SAID SO IN INTERVIEWS.
49:30WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW WELL SHE
49:32COULD SING.
49:35NINE SONGS I THINK SHE HAD BUT
49:37WE DIDN'T AUDITION.
49:39THERE WAS A MOMENT WHEN BENNY
49:41WENT TO A REHEARSAL ROOM IN NEW
49:42YORK TO PLAY THE PIANO TO CHECK
49:45HER KEYS AND, YEAH.
49:47>> HE GAVE HER AN "A"?
49:48>> HE GAVE HER AN "A."
49:50SHE WAS DAUNTED.
49:51HE WAS REALLY DAUNTED, BUT IT
49:52WAS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT.
49:54>> AND SHER MUST HAVE BEEN
49:55DAUNTING TO TRY TO GET HER FOR
49:58THE SECOND FILM.
49:59>> YEAH, WE DEFINITELY DIDN'T
50:01HAVE TO AUDITION HER.
50:03WE DEFINITELY COULD HEAR THAT
50:07VOICE IN OUR HEAD.
50:12SHE'D SEEN THE SHOW 25 YEARS
50:15AGO.
50:15I'D ACTUALLY ASKED HER WHETHER
50:17SHE'D BE IN THE FIRST FILM, BUT
50:19SHE DIDN'T WANT TO DO THAT.
50:20BEFORE WE DISCOVERED THE
50:23WONDERFUL CHRISTINE BRANSKY, WE
50:27THOUGHT OF SHER.
50:30AND CIRCLE OF LIFE.
50:31HERE SHE IS IN THE LAST FILM.
50:33>> ARE YOU GOING TO BE DOING A
50:36BIO PIC, A PROJECT WITH SHER AS
50:38HAS BEEN REPORTED ON HER LIFE?
50:39>> YES, DEFINITELY.
50:41IT'S IN -- YOU KNOW, IN THE
50:43WORKS AS THEY SAY.
50:44BUT, YES, VERY MUCH.
50:46AGAIN BASED ON TRUST,
50:48FRIENDSHIP, WE BECAME PALS AFTER
50:49THE LAST MOVIE.
50:52AND IT'S -- YOU KNOW, IT'S AN
50:55AMAZING LIFE.
50:55SHE'S AN INSPIRATION AS A WOMAN,
50:58I MEAN THERE'S A LOT THERE.
51:01>> CAN WE JUST TALK ABOUT WOMEN
51:04BECAUSE SHE'S OBVIOUSLY A WOMAN
51:05OF A CERTAIN AGE.
51:07MERYL IS NOW.
51:08IT'S REALLY AN EXPLOSION OF JOY
51:11BY OLDER WOMEN, RIGHT?
51:13>> I THINK "MAMA MIA" WHEN IT
51:15WAS CREATED BY ME WITH CATHERINE
51:18WRITING IT AND PHYLLIDA
51:25DIRECTING, THE TWO GENERATIONS
51:26OF WOMEN WAS A JUMPING OFF
51:28POINT, BUT I THINK AUDIENCES DO
51:30SEE THEMSELVES, BUT I THINK IT'S
51:33BEEN AN INCREDIBLE VEHICLE OF
51:34ROLES FOR OLDER WOMEN OR WOMEN
51:37OVER MIDDLE AGE IN THEATER AND
51:38IN THE MOVIES.
51:40AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE
51:42AUDIENCES LOVE BECAUSE THEY --
51:44YOU CAN SEE THE FLAWS.
51:46YOU KNOW, JUDY WATERS RUNNING
51:49OUT OF A DINGHY OR MERYL STREEP
51:53FAUMING IN LOVE OR OUT OF LOVE.
51:54>> YOU DID PUT THIS ON OCTOBER
51:572001 AFTER BROADWAY HAD GONE
52:00DARK, AFTER 9/11.
52:00DID YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD BE
52:02THE RIGHT TONE AT THAT TIME?
52:04WERE YOU WORRIED?
52:06>> OH, YES.
52:07I MEAN IT WAS THE WORST TIME
52:08EVER.
52:08YOU KNOW, WATCHING THE TRAGEDY,
52:11BEING IN THE CITY WHEN IT
52:13HAPPENED.
52:14I MEAN, ALL OF THE BRITISH --
52:16ALL OF US BRITS, THE CREATOR
52:19TEAM WERE THERE, AND IT
52:20LITERALLY HAPPENED A MONTH
52:21BEFORE WE OPENED.
52:22WE WERE IN REHEARSAL.
52:23IT WAS NOT JUST TERRIFYING FOR
52:26US BUT, YOU KNOW, HORRIFYING AND
52:28TERRIFYING FOR NEW YORK.
52:29AND WE WERE KIND OF PARALYZED
52:33THERE.
52:34YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU DO?
52:35IT SEEMS SO CRAZY YOU'RE PUTTING
52:40ON AN ENTERTAINMENT, YOU'RE
52:42HOSTING SOMETHING KIND OF SO
52:44FRIVOLOUS, REALLY.
52:45BUT IT BECAME A KIND OF
52:47THERAPEUTIC TIME FOR THE CAST TO
52:50TALK TO PHYLLIDA LLOYD, THE
52:56DIRECTOR.
52:57IT BECAME GROUP THERAPY.
52:57>> HOW DID THE PUBLIC REACT?
52:59>> THE PUBLIC IT WAS AN
53:00INCREDIBLY WARM FEELING.
53:03IT SEEMED IN THIS HORROR THAT
53:04WAS UNFOLDING AND WE OPENED ON
53:07OCTOBER 18th, NEARLY A MONTH
53:10AFTER, IT BECAME A PLACE PEOPLE
53:13WANTED TO GO.
53:14IT BECAME SOMEWHERE SOME WHERE
53:16PEOPLE WANTED TO COME.
53:17WE HAD THE FARMER COMING, THE
53:20FARMERS AND THEIR FAMILIES.
53:22WE JUST WANTED TO BE THERE.
53:23WE WANTED TO HELP, AND THAT WAS
53:25THE ONLY THING WE COULD DO.
53:27>> I WAS THINKING WATCHING IT
53:28THIS WEEK, WATCHING IT AND
53:29MARKING THE 25th ANNIVERSARY OF
53:31THIS INCREDIBLE MUSICAL IN YET
53:33ANOTHER PERIOD OF TERRIBLE,
53:35TRAGIC, AWFUL WARS AND WORLD
53:37EVENTS.
53:37AND I WONDER IF YOU ALSO THINK
53:40THIS ANNIVERSARY IS HAPPENING AT
53:42A TIME WHEN PEOPLE NEED SOME
53:44JOY?
53:45>> PEOPLE NEED JOY.
53:46PEOPLE NEED ENTERTAINMENT, LIVE
53:48ENTERTAINMENT.
53:48AND HISTORY GOES BEFORE US
53:50SAYING THAT.
53:51I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THROUGH WARS,
53:54THEATER HAS ALWAYS KIND OF HAD
53:58ITS LIGHTS ON.
54:00WEST END IS AN ARTERY, IS A
54:03HEARTBEAT REALLY.
54:06♪
54:11>> SOME PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE
54:12YEARS, YOU KNOW, THE CRITICS
54:14HAVE BEEN VERY DISMISSIVE ABOUT
54:17ABBA, IT'S JUST POP, IT'S JUST
54:20HAPPY CLAPPY.
54:22BUT ACTUALLY THE LYRICS ARE VERY
54:25PROFOUND WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THEM
54:26PARTICULARLY IN THIS SETTING AND
54:28THE MUSIC AS A STORY.
54:29>> THAT WAS THE ATTRACTION TO ME
54:30AND THE SONGS IS THAT THEY FELL
54:32INTO TWO GENERATIONS.
54:34THEY WERE THE YOUNGER HAPPIER
54:35SONGS AND THE SONGS WE ALL
54:37DANCED TO, "DANCING QUEEN" BUT
54:42BIG EMOTIONAL SONGS "WINNER
54:44TAKES IT ALL."
54:46AND I THINK HE WROTE THOSE
54:47THINGS WITH A STRING OF
54:50CONSCIOUSNESS.
54:51>> AND THEY WERE MARRIED TO
54:53THEM.
54:54>> AND YOU FEEL THAT YOU'RE IN,
54:58YOU KNOW, THE WOMAN'S PSYCHE
55:02SINGING THOSE SONGS.
55:03THEIR SONGS ARE INCREDIBLE.
55:06♪ IF YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND ♪
55:11♪ TAKE A CHANCE ON ME ♪
55:15>> WILL THERE BE A THIRD FILM?
55:16>> I HOPE SO.
55:17>> WORKING ON IT.
55:20>> DEFINITELY.
55:21DEFINITELY.
55:21THEY SAY NO, I SAY YES.
55:23YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL GETTING
55:24OLDER, WE'VE GOT TO GET ON WITH
55:25IT.
55:25>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
55:27JUDY CRAMER.
55:29REALLY AN AMAZING ANNIVERSARY
55:30AND A GREAT AMOUNT OF JOY AND
55:32BEAUTY YOU BRING TO THE WORLD.
55:33ON THIS FAKE GREEK ISLAND.
55:35>> ON THIS WE'RE IN THE MOTHER
55:37SHIP.
55:37>> WE ARE.
55:39>> YEAH, THANK YOU.
55:40>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR
55:44PROGRAM TONIGHT.
55:45IF YOU WANT TO SIGN UP WHAT'S
55:47COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP
55:49FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT
55:58PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:59THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN
56:00US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.