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00:00 Dean Vultek is author of Post-War Europe and the Eurovision Song Contest.
00:05 Thank you so much for being with us on the programme, Dean.
00:08 So we've seen protests on stage, off stage, rumblings of backstage rouse over the past week,
00:14 calls for a boycott, headline-grabbing press conferences.
00:17 Is this, do you think, the most political and divisive Eurovision we've ever seen?
00:21 What is the atmosphere like there in Malmo?
00:24 Well, the atmosphere has certainly been tense this week.
00:27 Never before have there been such large protests attached to the Eurovision Song Contest.
00:34 But Eurovision is always political.
00:36 It has always reflected political and social changes in Europe.
00:40 And indeed, we see this year the world.
00:42 So politics in Eurovision really is nothing new.
00:46 For the past couple of years, the big political story has been about Ukraine,
00:51 when Europeans rallied behind the Ukrainian entry in 2022 just after the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
01:00 And they brought Ukraine victory.
01:02 Last year, the United Kingdom hosted Eurovision on behalf of Ukraine.
01:08 This year, the big political story is Israel.
01:11 And as you say, organisers insist that the Eurovision is apolitical.
01:14 But you've said that about a third of the most popular songs this year
01:18 have actually got political themes.
01:21 Certainly, they deal with political and social issues.
01:24 So, for example, the Croatian entry, which is highly favoured by the bookies,
01:29 "Rim, Tim, Tag, I, Dim", that's about emigration.
01:32 Croatia is a country that has lost 10% of its population,
01:36 partly due to emigration since it joined the European Union in 2013.
01:41 Then there's the song by the Dutch singer Joost Kline,
01:44 which is an ode to European integration and celebrates freedom of movement in the European Union.
01:50 And there's the Swiss song, the singer Nemo, who sings about their non-binary identity.
01:57 So political and social issues are very evident in Eurovision this year as well,
02:03 overshadowed by the controversy surrounding Israel.
02:06 But nonetheless, these are the entries which are attracting most of the attention of fans
02:12 and the voting public.
02:14 And Din, you mentioned the Dutch performer Joost Kline.
02:17 He actually missed his slot in the dress rehearsals on Friday
02:20 and he's being investigated by the EBU.
02:23 Do we know any more about what exactly has happened
02:26 and whether or not he's actually going to be allowed to perform tonight?
02:30 The EBU confirmed last night that he is under investigation.
02:34 We don't know the exact details yet.
02:36 The EBU hasn't informed us of those.
02:40 So we have to wait and see whether indeed Joost Kline will be participating in the grand final tonight.
02:46 This has never happened in Eurovision before,
02:50 that an entry has been brought into question so last minute.
02:55 So it's going to be very interesting to see what happens with this case today.
02:59 He'll be feeling under a lot of pressure today, I imagine.
03:02 He and some of the other performers,
03:03 they've also been expressing frustration that the debate about the Eurovision,
03:08 that it's really been overshadowed entirely by Israel's inclusion in the competition
03:13 and they've been resisting demands to boycott the competition.
03:16 So how much pressure are the artists coming under?
03:19 They're already going to be feeling a lot of pressure just taking part in the competition itself.
03:25 Yes, but I think that pressure was much greater before when it was still being decided
03:31 which artists would participate and whether once they underwent the national selections,
03:36 they would still choose to go to Eurovision.
03:40 And they all have. No country is boycotting, no artist is boycotting.
03:44 If they were going to boycott, that would have been decided months ago.
03:48 So the artists have been dealing with this issue for a long time now
03:55 and normally by the time we get to the grand final, these sorts of issues are resolved.
04:02 Things are a bit different now because today we will see demonstrations in Malmo once again,
04:08 pro-Palestinian demonstrations calling for action to be taken against Israel.
04:14 This I don't think will affect the final show,
04:18 but nonetheless there is a tense atmosphere here in Malmo.
04:21 And do you think it's going to influence how people decide to vote tonight?
04:26 Well, it was a surprise that Israel got into the grand final
04:29 because many commentators thought that Israel might be punished in Eurovision
04:34 because of its war in Gaza.
04:38 But we saw the opposite, actually. We saw a lot of support for Israel.
04:41 I was there in the live audience.
04:43 There were some boos, but whenever there were boos, more people cheered for Israel.
04:49 Or perhaps for Eden Golan.
04:53 More people, well, some of the fans with whom I spoke said that they sympathized with her,
04:59 that she was going through such a difficult situation by performing in Eurovision,
05:04 and that Eurovision should be a song contest.
05:08 It should be about the songs, the artists, that it shouldn't be about politics.
05:12 But there are also people certainly who voted for Israel to express their support for Israel.
05:19 And last year Israel topped the rest of the world vote,
05:23 which was introduced last year as something new.
05:27 People from all around the world can vote.
05:30 So in this vote Israel topped it last year.
05:34 It ended up coming third in Eurovision last year.
05:37 But this could mean that the supporters of Israel around the world are mobilizing behind Israel
05:42 in Eurovision and trying to support Israel through their voting in the contest.
05:48 As you said, they're now one of the favorites to win.
05:50 Do you think that they will win? And if they do,
05:52 what kind of a reaction do you think we're going to see in Malmo tonight?
05:55 Will there be further protests against and in support of Israel?
06:00 Well, the Croatian entry has been the favorite to win for a while now.
06:06 It's the current favorite to win.
06:08 There was a time there when the Swiss entry was the current favorite to win.
06:12 So it's not clear whether Israel actually could take this.
06:16 And if those who are criticizing Israel around the world think that Israel could win,
06:23 they may indeed mobilize to vote for other entries and try to ensure that Israel doesn't win.
06:31 So it's going to be very interesting today to see how all of this politics plays out in the contest
06:37 and to see how many votes Israel does actually get in the end.
06:40 If Israel does win, that's going to be another challenge for the European Broadcasting Union.
06:46 Last year it was already a challenge for the European Broadcasting Union
06:51 when Ukraine couldn't host because of the war in its country
06:56 and the contest had to be hosted by the United Kingdom.
06:59 So the European Broadcasting Union has been experimenting with new ways to deal with these issues
07:05 and we'll just have to see what the result is tonight to determine whether it will face a new challenge.
07:12 And Dean, it's always billed as an apolitical event,
07:15 but is it possible to avoid politics given the current circumstances, war in Europe,
07:21 Israeli participation, pro-Palestinian protests around the world?
07:26 It's not possible to avoid politics.
07:28 This is a show in which countries are represented by artists.
07:32 You see the artists appearing under the names of countries.
07:35 Even though the organizers are national public service broadcasters,
07:40 governments are not meant to be involved in this.
07:43 But nonetheless, when you see countries competing against each other,
07:46 things are bound to get political.
07:48 And as I mentioned earlier, Eurovision has always reflected political changes in Europe and in the world.
07:56 So I think politics is unavoidable in Eurovision.
08:00 It just has to be managed so that the conflict doesn't scar the show entirely.
08:06 And historically speaking, has the Eurovision been something that's been able to build bridges
08:11 between countries? The official motto this year is "United by Music."
08:16 Absolutely. I mean, this has been going on since 1956.
08:20 This is one of the longest running television shows,
08:23 and it's the biggest cultural event that unites Europeans.
08:26 In recent years, 160 million viewers have been watching Eurovision.
08:31 So in that sense, yes, it really is a bridge between countries, between cultures.
08:37 It has given us some great international hits, some great international stars.
08:44 Tonight, we'll see part of the show being dedicated to ABBA,
08:47 celebrating the 50th anniversary since ABBA won Eurovision in 1974,
08:52 a moment that launched ABBA's global career.
08:56 So Eurovision has certainly given us a lot.
08:59 When you're in the live arena, you really do sense that, you know, this is a huge show, a huge party.
09:06 People are singing, people are dancing, people from all over the world are coming together to enjoy this event.
09:13 And hopefully it's that feeling that will also be victorious tonight.
09:17 Dean, thank you so much for your time on the program. We do appreciate it.
09:20 That is Dean Villatech. He's author of "Post-War Europe" and the Eurovision Song Contest.
09:25 Do enjoy the event tonight in Malmo. Thank you. You too.