• last year
ATF Director Steven Dettelbach testified in front of the House Judiciary Committee on Thursday.

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Transcript
00:00:00It will come to order without objection.
00:00:01The chair is authorized to declare recess at any time.
00:00:03We welcome everyone today's hearing on oversight of the Bureau of Alcohol,
00:00:06Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
00:00:08The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Arizona to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:00:13I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
00:00:18and to the republic for which it stands, one nation,
00:00:22under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
00:00:30We'll begin the hearing with opening statement.
00:00:38Chair recognizes himself.
00:00:39Government's not supposed to change the rules without a vote of Congress.
00:00:43Executive branch executes the laws, legislative branch passes the laws.
00:00:47But when you bypass that format, which is exactly what the ATF has done,
00:00:52you get all kinds of bad things.
00:00:54First, it was the pistol brace rule.
00:00:55November 26, 2012, the ATF told the inventor of the pistol brace, quote,
00:01:02he would not be subject to the National Firearms Act.
00:01:06But last year, they changed the rule.
00:01:09After 12 years, changed the rule.
00:01:11The rule, by the way, the pistol brace was put together to help disabled veterans
00:01:16be able to shoot, be able to practice and shoot at the range.
00:01:19Now, with the rule change, you don't turn it in, get rid of it, you become a felon.
00:01:26Then it was a policy change that the ATF enacted.
00:01:29The ATF now says, if a federal firearms licensee makes a mistake on a form,
00:01:34even if it's a clerical mistake, well, that now equals a, quote,
00:01:38willful falsifying of records, and they could lose their license.
00:01:42In fact, 157 FFLs lost their license last year in this gotcha
00:01:47game that the ATF is playing with people who are in the business of selling firearms.
00:01:54And the pressure to deal with what the ATF comes out and
00:01:59finds you've made some mistake on a form, many people are just voluntarily giving up
00:02:04their FFL, 24 in 2021, 69 in 2022, 80 people
00:02:11last year gave up their license versus dealing with the hassle from the agency
00:02:16that's supposed to help them comply, not put them out of business.
00:02:21And finally, there's the new definition of who actually needs a federal firearms license.
00:02:27Since 1968, the definition said it had to be your principal livelihood,
00:02:32principal livelihood in the business of selling firearms.
00:02:36You needed that, if you were doing that, you needed an FFL.
00:02:39But this past Monday, new definition was put in place,
00:02:44said if you're earning a profit, ATF doesn't be able,
00:02:47can't really define what that means, you sell one gun to your cousin,
00:02:52made $10, made $50 on the sale of a gun, two guns to someone, ten guns.
00:02:58In fact, they couldn't even tell the court how it works, this new definition.
00:03:05When you make up the rules as you go, bad things happen.
00:03:10You lose your livelihood for a clerical error, you become a felon for
00:03:14having a pistol brace they told you was legal for 12 years, and you might even get shot.
00:03:21That's what happened to Brian Malinowski, just two months ago.
00:03:27We have Brian's widow with us today, she was here with us yesterday.
00:03:30Heard some powerful testimony from US Attorney Bud Cummings,
00:03:34who represents the Malinowski family.
00:03:36In fact, I'm gonna read from Mr.
00:03:37Cummings' testimony that he gave in this room yesterday.
00:03:41It's legal to buy, trade, and sell guns without a federal firearms license if you are a collector or hobbyist.
00:03:48But at some point, the ATF decided that Brian Malinowski had crossed a murky line, and
00:03:53he was no longer a hobbyist, because of that, ATF concluded he was required
00:03:59to purchase a $200 federal firearms license before he sold any more guns.
00:04:06I call it murky, because there is no bright line test, it's truly subjective.
00:04:12But one thing seems certain, Brian Malinowski received no warning.
00:04:17His family, his friends, his work colleagues would all guarantee you he loved his career and
00:04:23he would have never knowingly jeopardized it over a weekend hobby.
00:04:27His real job, his main job, the only job was he ran the Bill and
00:04:32Hillary Clinton Airport in Little Rock, Arkansas.
00:04:35The highest paid official in the municipal government made $260,000 a year.
00:04:39But on March 19th, at 6.01 AM, over one hour before sunup,
00:04:44ten carloads of ATF agents and Little Rock Police Department
00:04:50officers came to the Malinowski home to execute their search warrant.
00:04:57Not an arrest warrant, search warrant.
00:05:00At 6.0246 AM, ATF agents in full SWAT gear approached the front door.
00:05:07They had a piece of tape ready to cover the camera lens of the doorbell camera, which they did.
00:05:13Next, Mrs. Malinowski heard only a loud crash as her front door caved in.
00:05:18Her husband Brian woke up to the sound of the crash, found a pistol,
00:05:23loaded a magazine, and left the bedroom to investigate.
00:05:26Brian warned his wife to stay behind in the bedroom, but
00:05:30the mayor stubbornly followed him down the hallway.
00:05:35ATF apparently killed electricity to the home.
00:05:38The front room was usually well lit at night.
00:05:41But Mrs. Malinowski saw only darkness as she peered down towards the front entryway.
00:05:46She could only see shadowy outlines of presumed home invaders standing in her
00:05:50front hallway.
00:05:51That's what Brian saw too.
00:05:53Brian fired a few shots at the intruder's feet to drive them back out of the front door.
00:05:58The ATF shot Brian in the head.
00:06:01His wife was standing inches away from him.
00:06:04A mere 57 seconds, 57 seconds elapsed from the time agents
00:06:10covered the doorbell camera until gunshots erupted and Brian was fatally wounded.
00:06:156.0246 to 6.0343.
00:06:20Agents immediately dragged Mrs. Malinowski into the front yard.
00:06:24She was barefoot, wearing minimal night clothing, and the temperature was 34 degrees.
00:06:29They locked her in the back seat of a car and detained her there for four hours.
00:06:34Refusing her many requests to check on her husband, her husband she had just seen shot,
00:06:42wouldn't allow her to get close or even use the neighbor's bathroom.
00:06:46Even though policies have been in place at both the ATF and the Little Rock Police Department
00:06:51for the past three years requiring the use of body-worn cameras when executing any search
00:06:56warrant, the Department of Justice tells us that no body cameras were used.
00:07:04If this isn't the weaponization of government, I don't know what is.
00:07:08I don't know what is.
00:07:09Mr. Dettelbach, we're going to have questions about this and a host of other things the
00:07:12ATF has done under your watch.
00:07:15A host of other things.
00:07:17We appreciate you being here today.
00:07:18We appreciate you taking our questions, but there's going to be tough questions from folks
00:07:22on our side.
00:07:24We have a video I'd like to show, which just so it's a minute and a half, but it first
00:07:30shows ATF agents assembling in the Walmart parking lot a week before March 19th when
00:07:36they were going to execute this search warrant.
00:07:38Again, pre-dawn hours the week before, but decided not to because they realized Mr. Malinowski
00:07:45wasn't home.
00:07:48And then it shows what happened a week later as they approached the Malinowski home.
00:07:52So let's run the video.
00:09:08Chairman, I'll recognize the Ranking Member for an opening statement.
00:09:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:09:26Mr. Chairman, we last conducted an oversight hearing of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
00:09:31Firearms, and Explosives, or ATF, just over one year ago.
00:09:35Since that time, a few things have changed and a great many things have stayed the same.
00:09:40Let's begin with what has changed.
00:09:42Last month, the Attorney General signed an ATF final rule clarifying who is, quote, engaged
00:09:46in the business, unquote, of selling firearms and who must therefore obtain a license to
00:09:51sell firearms and conduct the necessary background checks.
00:09:54This rule implements a change in this definition made by Congress when we passed the Bipartisan
00:09:59Safer Communities Act, the first significant piece of gun violence prevention legislation
00:10:04in nearly 30 years.
00:10:06Prior to the passage of the BSCA, a person was, quote, engaged in the business, unquote,
00:10:11of selling firearms if they did so, quote, with the principal objective of livelihood
00:10:15and profit, close quote.
00:10:17But under the new law, a person is engaged in the business of selling firearms if they
00:10:21do so, quote, to predominantly earn a profit, unquote.
00:10:25In finalizing this new rule, ATF has adhered to its directive from Congress and has ensured
00:10:30that ATF regulations are consistent with the definitions we updated through this historic
00:10:35legislation that makes Americans safer.
00:10:38Importantly, the new definition and the new rule ensure that more gun sales, including
00:10:43those at gun shows or through the internet, include a background check, a life-saving
00:10:47tool that keeps guns out of dangerous hands.
00:10:50These changes are the only significant expansion of the federal background check system since
00:10:54it was established in the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act in 1993.
00:11:00The Department of Justice estimates that there are over 20,000 unlicensed sellers who are
00:11:04taking advantage of ambiguity in the law and who will now have to obtain a license and
00:11:09conduct background checks.
00:11:11Yesterday, in a related hearing, Republicans argued that this new rule is being used to
00:11:15target individuals who are merely selling a gun from their personal collection or who
00:11:20occasionally buy and sell guns as part of a hobby.
00:11:23This is false.
00:11:25The rule, quote, expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the
00:11:30enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate lobby are permitted by the Gun
00:11:35Control Act to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes or occasionally resell
00:11:40to a licensee or to a family member for lawful purposes without the need to obtain a license.
00:11:46The final rule also states that, quote, nothing in this rule shall be construed as precluding
00:11:51a person from lawfully acquiring a firearm for self-protection or other lawful personal
00:11:57use, close quote.
00:11:59The law and the rule do not impose any new requirements on those who are merely selling
00:12:02a firearm to a neighbor, a friend, or a family member or those who collect and occasionally
00:12:07sell firearms as part of their hobby.
00:12:10Rather than targeting innocent lobbyist sellers, this rule will permit, I'm sorry, will
00:12:15prevent illegal gun sellers from profiting off gun trafficking.
00:12:19This comes at a critical time given that the ATF's National Firearms Commerce and
00:12:24Trafficking Assessment revealed that unlicensed gun sales were contributing more and more
00:12:29to the flow of firearms into the black market and unsurprisingly becoming a leading source
00:12:34of crime guns.
00:12:36The second new development since we last heard from ATF Director Dettelbach is that
00:12:41Republicans used their control of the House to enact significant cuts to several critical
00:12:45law enforcement agencies including the Department of Justice, the FBI, and the ATF.
00:12:51We knew this was coming because Republicans have been forthright in their determination
00:12:55to defund, intimidate, and hamstring the agency so that it can no longer effectively do its
00:13:02job and protect Americans from violent crime.
00:13:05Republicans' own messaging documents actually celebrate the 7% cut to the ATF, the law
00:13:11enforcement agency responsible for protecting communities from gun violence, stopping gun
00:13:16trafficking, and ensuring lawful and responsible gun ownership.
00:13:20This brings me to what is still as true today as it was over a year ago when we last conducted
00:13:25an oversight hearing of the ATF.
00:13:28ATF is still the primary federal agency tasked with keeping guns out of the wrong hands and
00:13:33it is still doing that important work even with the budget cuts forced through by House
00:13:38Republicans.
00:13:39ATF is still providing vital resources that help state and local law enforcement solve
00:13:44crimes and prevent gun violence.
00:13:46ATF is still the only agency in the country that is able to trace crime guns, helping
00:13:52law enforcement determine how a gun came to be owned and used in a violent crime.
00:13:58ATF is also still the only agency that provides local, state, tribal, and federal law enforcement
00:14:04with ballistic imaging analysis, a critical tool that can help solve crime and prevent
00:14:09further gun violence.
00:14:11It provides its assistance at no cost to its law enforcement partners.
00:14:15Despite the significant value that ATF provides to state and local law enforcement, Republicans
00:14:20have defunded the agency and they repeatedly seek to unravel its regulations through litigation,
00:14:27Congressional Review Act resolutions, and frivolous investigations, even when ATF is
00:14:31merely following the law as directed by Congress.
00:14:35Some Republicans have even introduced a bill to abolish the ATF altogether.
00:14:40The majority says that it stands with law enforcement, so why does it seek to abolish
00:14:44the only law enforcement agency with the capability of tracing crime guns?
00:14:50The majority says that they support state and local police, so why do they attempt to
00:14:54starve the agency that provides state and local police officers with so many critical
00:14:59resources for solving crime, including homicides, gun trafficking, and organized crime?
00:15:04And why do they oppose common sense protections, like background checks and red flag laws,
00:15:09favored by state and local police agencies nationwide?
00:15:13The answer lies in another part of ATF's responsibilities, making sure that gun dealers
00:15:18follow the law by conducting background checks, refusing to sell to those who are not allowed
00:15:23to have firearms, and keeping records so that crime guns can be traced.
00:15:28The overwhelming majority of gun sellers have no problem following these laws, but when
00:15:32gun dealers willfully refuse to follow them, it is ATF's responsibility to revoke their
00:15:37license to sell.
00:15:39Republicans' priorities are clear.
00:15:41They would prefer to keep every gun store in the country open, even those that willfully
00:15:46violate the law, rather than to let ATF save lives simply by enforcing the law.
00:15:52And this brings me to the final thing that is still the same since our last oversight
00:15:56hearing.
00:15:56It is still the case that we are losing more than 100 Americans to gun violence every single
00:16:03day.
00:16:04Even without counting suicides, we have already lost more than 6,000 Americans to shootings
00:16:10so far this year.
00:16:12That includes 88 young children, 454 teens, and 30 law enforcement officers who were killed
00:16:18by gunfire just this year.
00:16:21Democrats have put forth a range of solutions to prevent gun violence, to support law enforcement,
00:16:25and to solve crimes.
00:16:27But since they took control of the House, our Republican colleagues have not advanced
00:16:31a single bill that would make Americans safer from gun violence.
00:16:36Instead, they have continued to push for unfettered access to assault weapons, concealable
00:16:41rifles, and ghost guns, and to abolish the very agency tasked with preventing gun crimes.
00:16:47As Republicans continue to seek freedom from gun regulations, we will continue to seek
00:16:52communities free from gun violence.
00:16:55Director Dettelbach, thank you for appearing here today to talk about the important work
00:16:59that the ATF does to keep Americans safe.
00:17:02I look forward to your testimony, and I yield back the balance of my time.
00:17:05The gentleman yields back $1.4 billion in 2022, $1.6 billion in 2023, $1.75 billion
00:17:11in 2024.
00:17:12Hardly a cut to their budget.
00:17:15Without objections, all other opening statements will be included in the record.
00:17:18We will now introduce today's witness.
00:17:20Mr. Dettelbach is the director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and Explosives.
00:17:24He was sworn in on July 13, 2022.
00:17:27We welcome our witness and thank him for appearing today.
00:17:30We'll begin by swearing you in.
00:17:31Would you please rise and raise your right hand?
00:17:36Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is
00:17:40true, correct, to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief?
00:17:43So help you God.
00:17:45Let the record reflect that the witness has answered in the affirmative.
00:17:48Thank you.
00:17:48You can be seated.
00:17:50Please know your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety
00:17:54accordingly.
00:17:54We ask that you summarize your testimony.
00:17:56Director Dettelbach, you may begin.
00:18:02Chairman Jordan, Ranking Member Nadler, members of the committee.
00:18:06When I testified last year, I said it was my great honor to lead the dedicated employees
00:18:11of ATF.
00:18:12This year, I'll repeat that statement and add that agents run toward gunfire to protect
00:18:17strangers, and our staff works day and night to support our mission.
00:18:21Their work in the last year has been nothing short of spectacular.
00:18:26As I stated last year, the level of violent crime in America is unacceptable.
00:18:31However, due to the hard work of these heroes and our partners, we have made significant
00:18:36progress in making communities safer.
00:18:39Last year, our nation saw one of the steepest single-year declines in violent crime in its
00:18:44history, murders down nearly 13 percent across 175 cities.
00:18:49This doesn't happen by accident.
00:18:52It is a result of hard and very dangerous work.
00:18:56In 2022, federal weapons convictions hit a record high, according to recent reporting.
00:19:02In 2023, ATF's criminal enforcement efforts were up again.
00:19:06We indicted even more cases and increased convictions by 8.5 percent.
00:19:12And the cases that we do make an impact because we focus on removing the most violent offenders
00:19:18from our streets.
00:19:20This progress tells us the strategies are working.
00:19:23It is not the time to let up now.
00:19:26ATF's data-driven support helps law enforcement lock up the trigger pullers and stop the flow
00:19:34of illegal guns to them from trafficking.
00:19:37We must go after both the shooters and the criminal traffickers, both.
00:19:42That is the only way we will continue to drive down firearms crime.
00:19:47Firearms trafficking is not a victimless crime.
00:19:51Those who illegally arm violent people, gang members, drug dealers, they are responsible
00:19:57for the violence that follows.
00:20:00A recent ATF report shows that 60 percent of trafficked firearms go to convicted felons
00:20:07and prohibited people.
00:20:08And thousands of these trafficked guns are used in murders and shootings.
00:20:13Furthermore, the most common type of firearms trafficking now is dealing firearms for profit
00:20:20without a license.
00:20:22In Midland, Odessa, Texas, for example, in 2019, a man who couldn't pass a background
00:20:28check from a licensed dealer instead went and got a gun from an illegally unlicensed
00:20:34firearm dealer.
00:20:36The result, a deal in a parking lot, a mass shooting, seven dead, 25 shot, three police
00:20:43officers, and a 17-month-old child.
00:20:46These types of crimes prompted Congress to pass the Bipartisan Saver Communities Act
00:20:52two years ago.
00:20:53The law provided new tools to hold firearms traffickers accountable.
00:20:58Since then, the Department of Justice, led by ATF and prosecutors, has charged nearly
00:21:04500 defendants under those new provisions.
00:21:09Motivated by cases like the murders in Midland, Odessa, Congress also included a specific
00:21:14provision expanding who must obtain a federal license to deal firearms, and therefore,
00:21:22crucially, who must conduct background checks before selling those guns.
00:21:27Last month, ATF used the authority Congress delegated to it to issue a final rule on
00:21:33being, quote, engaged in the business of firearms dealing.
00:21:38This rule helps to identify those who must be licensed under Congress's law and is
00:21:43designed to raise compliance with the statute Congress wrote.
00:21:49Even with our progress, the toll of gun violence remains crushing.
00:21:54More than 40,000 people died from gun violence last year.
00:21:58Another 36,000 suffered grievous wounds or wounds from gun violence.
00:22:04And those are not just numbers.
00:22:05We all know, we agree, those are real people.
00:22:07They're parents, they're brothers, they're sisters, and they're children.
00:22:11In fact, the leading cause of death for American children is gun violence.
00:22:17Not cars, not cancer, guns.
00:22:22That is unacceptable.
00:22:24We're reminded too often, it was two years ago tomorrow, in fact, that a shooter opened
00:22:29fire at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, murdering 19 kids, two teachers, shooting
00:22:3617 others.
00:22:38We know there's been so many other tragedies like this.
00:22:42Last but not certainly least, as we commemorated Police Week last week, we're reminded that
00:22:48all too often, the victims of firearms violence carry the badge.
00:22:52Last year, 49 brave officers were killed in the line of duty by gunfire.
00:22:57This year, that number is already at 22, including four officers in North Carolina who went to
00:23:04the funeral gunned down while executing a warrant at the home of a firearms violator.
00:23:10We have to support law enforcement together, including giving law enforcement the resources
00:23:15we need to protect Americans.
00:23:18Again, now is not the time to let up.
00:23:21We know what works.
00:23:22The data are supporting it.
00:23:24It's time to double and triple down together on our efforts to save more lives.
00:23:30Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, members of the committee, I look forward to your questions.
00:23:37I will now proceed to the five-minute rule.
00:23:38The chair recognizes the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore.
00:23:41Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:23:42I'll yield to the gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Massey.
00:23:45Thank you, Mr. Moore.
00:23:46Mr. Dettelbach, in February, Chairman Biggs and I sent you a letter concerning the pipe
00:23:51bombs that were discovered on January 6th.
00:23:54These were pipe bombs from over three years ago and the investigation surrounding it.
00:23:58After months without a response, the day before yesterday, your department finally gave us a
00:24:04non-response.
00:24:05To be clear, the response was wholly inadequate and borders on showing contempt for Congress.
00:24:11To quote from the letter, this investigation remains ongoing.
00:24:15Accordingly, pursuant to long-standing Department of Justice policy, ATF cannot provide details.
00:24:21It goes on, this is about the safety of Congress.
00:24:25These bombs were a couple blocks from here, yet you refuse to answer questions about them.
00:24:30If you don't have contempt for us, I'll give you an opportunity to respond to some of my
00:24:35questions here today.
00:24:37Are you willing to answer those questions today?
00:24:40I'm willing to try within the rules, which long-standing rules.
00:24:43I've been in five administrations at the Department of Justice, Democrat and Republican.
00:24:48And long-standing policy of the Department of Justice in both types of administration
00:24:53on both sides has been, we do not comment on pending investigations.
00:24:57Right.
00:24:57That's a policy.
00:24:59It's not been through some kind of rulemaking.
00:25:01That's a policy.
00:25:02And you can say that to the media, but you can't say it to Congress.
00:25:05We created your department.
00:25:07How many ATF personnel were on the Capitol premises on January 6th, 2021?
00:25:12Uh, again, uh, I, I don't, I don't believe I can answer specific questions about the
00:25:18investigation.
00:25:19I know that that may not relate to the investigation.
00:25:21So, uh, I know that there were, I wasn't here during that period, uh, that predated my time
00:25:28on January 6th, the January 6th attacks.
00:25:30So, uh, I know there were some ATF agents who were called to help, uh, protect members
00:25:36of Congress.
00:25:37Uh, I don't know how many.
00:25:39Well, that's not an acceptable answer.
00:25:41We've asked you this months ago and you just send us a letter saying you can't answer that
00:25:45yet.
00:25:45According to a FOIA report, um, obtained by judicial watch, there were 19 people here.
00:25:52So for you to say, you don't know, or you can't tell us is ludicrous.
00:25:56I mean, you're, these are subject to FOIA reports.
00:26:00Um, Congress, I am happy to, I'm happy to, to also get back to you with information.
00:26:05If I don't remember all the numbers at the tip of my fingers, I'm sorry about that.
00:26:08Are you willing to confirm that the pipe bombs planted at the Capitol Hill Club and
00:26:12the DNC on January 6th couldn't have gone off with the, with the 60 minute kitchen timer
00:26:18if they were placed the day before?
00:26:21Uh, respectfully, Congressman, I do believe that this does go into the area of the investigation,
00:26:27which is, ATF is supporting, FBI is leading that investigation and I cannot comment.
00:26:32We're three years into it.
00:26:34Who was the on scene incident commander for the ATF on January 6th?
00:26:38Uh, again, uh, if you're asking about the scene of the investigation at the, at the,
00:26:45um, headquarters, uh, again.
00:26:48You're not going to tell us who the incident commander was?
00:26:49I don't, no, I'm telling you if, if that relates to the scene, not here at the Capitol building
00:26:55where we were protecting Congress people from attack, but to the other investigation scene,
00:27:00we can try to get back to you.
00:27:01But I will tell you if it relates to a pending investigation, we won't be able to comment.
00:27:05Does the ATF provide training to U.S. Capitol Police on explosive detection,
00:27:10detonation, disarming, or conduct, or simulation training exercises with U.S. Capitol Police?
00:27:16We provide the National Center for Explosives Training and Research in Huntsville, Alabama
00:27:20provides training to numerous different law enforcement agencies.
00:27:23I would not be surprised if Capitol Police were one of them.
00:27:26I don't know about the training regimen.
00:27:28People are going down there all the time to get training.
00:27:30Were the two pipe bombs on January 6th part of a training exercise?
00:27:34Uh, I, I cannot comment on a pending investigation, but, but if, okay, in general, I would say,
00:27:41in general, I would say to that, uh, I, I think if law enforcement knows that something is,
00:27:48uh, part of some sort of a, a law enforcement exercise, they wouldn't be conducting that
00:27:52long of an investigation in general, but I don't.
00:27:54In my last remaining seconds, I want to show you a video of something that you said on 60 minutes.
00:28:04And we depend on, uh, firearms dealers, many of whom are our first line of defense,
00:28:09who will pick up the phone and help us and try to interdict this.
00:28:13Uh, and, and for those who aren't doing that, I, I, I hope and expect that as Americans,
00:28:19we will all do that, but those aren't, you know, somebody comes into your store
00:28:23in a border state and plunks down $12,000 cash money for one of these things,
00:28:31uh, so that there's no credit card trail, you know, I mean, my word, uh, we hope that people
00:28:38will help us as Americans and continue to help us, uh, and not make that sale.
00:28:45Um, are you aware that it's illegal for you to create a registry of gun owners in the United
00:28:49States? I am. And are you insinuating here that somebody can't buy a firearm with cash?
00:28:55No. So why would a dealer, why should a dealer call you if somebody's going through
00:29:00a background check and tell you that somebody is using cash? We, we run a program called
00:29:05don't lie for the other guy, along with the national shooting sports foundation. So,
00:29:09and there are of, of straw purchasing matters where there are warning signs where people can
00:29:16contact us and firearms dealers who are law abiding business owners. And the majority are,
00:29:21I want to say that again, here, uh, they frequently contact us, especially on the
00:29:25Southwest border because cartels are using straw purchases to arm themselves with the kind of
00:29:31weaponry that results in death and destruction and the danger to Americans and law enforcement.
00:29:36We're concerned because banks are keeping these records and giving them to the government
00:29:39without a legal process. And I yield back. The gentleman yields back. Chairman,
00:29:42I recognize the ranking member for five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If Republicans would
00:29:47to succeed in their effort to abolish the ATF, how would that affect public safety,
00:29:52particularly gun violence in this country? Protecting Americans from violent crime,
00:29:58including firearms violence was, is, and will always continue to be ATF's top priority. And
00:30:05we work in partnership with state and local law enforcement officials to do that. We investigate
00:30:10the most dangerous worst of the worst, the people who are out there, trigger pullers,
00:30:15terrorizing our communities. And as I said, in my opening statement, the results speak for
00:30:20themselves, working with our state and local partners. We do a dangerous job. We do it well.
00:30:25And we catch a lot of very violent people. The tools we make available to local law enforcement,
00:30:30the crime gun intelligence, which enables them to identify who those people are better than ever
00:30:35before. So we can focus limited law enforcement resources on catching them is working. It is
00:30:41driving down violent crime in our cities. That's why everywhere I go in the country,
00:30:45Congressman, everywhere I go, red state, blue state, city, rural, they asked for more ATF
00:30:52resources. But if the Republicans would to succeed in their effort to abolish the ATF,
00:30:58how would that affect public safety? Well, all of that would go away. Okay. All of that would
00:31:03go away. We, our state and local partners who are asking for more ATF, they would be robbed of any
00:31:09ATF. It would be, it would, all the cases that we do, all the gangs we prosecute, the Ricos,
00:31:16the Vicars, the cartel cases, all the things we do would disappear. Thank you. While some House
00:31:23Republicans have sought to abolish the ATF, others have sought to defund it or to reduce its
00:31:28effectiveness through dramatic budget cuts. In fact, House Republicans have actually bragged
00:31:32about cutting the ATF by 7% this year. I understand that ATF has done an admirable job despite these
00:31:38budget cuts. For example, the agency has been able to dramatically reduce processing times for
00:31:43certain firearm transfer applications under the National Firearms Act. But can you describe the
00:31:48impact these cuts have had on the agency and how slashing funding for ATF reduces your ability to
00:31:54protect Americans from gun violence? Yes. So, ATF is an agency that is not a large agency
00:32:02with an outsized mission, protecting people from violent crime. And we have a very focused,
00:32:08effective strategy to do that. But you, sometimes less is more in law enforcement,
00:32:15less is not more. You can't get public safety on the cheap. And the fact of the matter is,
00:32:21is that pursuant to the cuts passed by Congress, we have canceled already two classes of special
00:32:28agents this year. Those are each 24 agent classes. I fear there will be more cancellations
00:32:37moving forward. We have obviously cut people in all job categories, lab technicians who run DNA
00:32:45tests to try to catch mass killers like happened in Goshen, California. We are doing the best with
00:32:51what you give us. We will continue to work to do that. But there's no doubt that the cuts that have
00:32:57been imposed will have a direct impact on public safety and ATF's mission to fight violent crime.
00:33:03No doubt. Thank you. Last week, we heard a great deal from Republicans about the need to support
00:33:07state and local law enforcement. Can you tell us how ATF works with and supports state and
00:33:12local law enforcement? There is no better partner in federal law enforcement for state and local
00:33:18police, sheriffs, state police than ATF. We stand shoulder to shoulder with local law enforcement
00:33:24doing the most violent cases that they do. And everywhere I go, as I said, Congressman,
00:33:31every chief I talk to, every sheriff I talk to, it doesn't matter, urban, rural, north, south,
00:33:38midwest, east coast, they all say the same thing. You guys are doing great. Please send more agents.
00:33:46Can you explain what a ghost gun or personally manufactured firearm is and why such firearms
00:33:51pose a danger to the American public? ATF's legal responsibility is to implement the laws
00:33:59that Congress passes. Congress passed the Gun Control Act. The Gun Control Act talks about
00:34:08the need for those who are engaged in the business and selling firearms to have a license. It also
00:34:15talks about anything that is, quote, readily convertible to being an operable firearm,
00:34:22falling under the definition of firearm. And so people who are producing
00:34:28kits that they send out so that people can, they're engaged in the business of doing it.
00:34:34I'm not talking about an individual hobbyist making a firearm for himself at home. That's
00:34:38allowed. But people who are selling these kits for money and saying, oh, you know, this is not
00:34:44readily convertible to being a firearm because it's not put together. We have, we evaluate those
00:34:50and the rule that we promulgated on privately made firearms addresses that.
00:34:54Congressman, the number of privately made firearms, which are untraceable,
00:34:58unserialized firearms that are used in crimes in a five-year period went up a thousand,
00:35:06I'm going to say a thousand percent, ten times, by a multiple of ten, year over year. And there's
00:35:12a reason for that. The reason for that is felons and violent people. They know they're going to do
00:35:17something bad. They don't want the firearm to be traced to them. It's a cold weapon.
00:35:22It's untraceable and it's very dangerous in the wrong hands.
00:35:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a May 22nd letter from
00:35:30Assistant Attorney General Carlos Uriarte to me that explains the risk of unserialized firearms
00:35:37or ghost guns posed to the public, their proliferation among guns found at crime scenes,
00:35:42and the numerous efforts of the Department of Justice to reduce violence caused by ghost guns
00:35:47and other firearms and to promote public safety. I also ask unanimous consent to enter into the
00:35:53record a March 7th Washington Post article titled, House Republicans Want to Defund the Police,
00:35:58which outlines how Republican cuts to the FBI and ATF will harm the important work of state
00:36:04and local law enforcement. Without objection. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Dettelbach,
00:36:08what were you trying to hide? On the raid on March 19th at Mr. Malinowski's house,
00:36:18disabled the doorbell camera, cut electricity to the house, and you didn't wear body cameras.
00:36:24What were you guys trying to hide? Mr. Chairman, we're not trying to hide things. In fact,
00:36:30it seems like it. You guys cut electricity to the house? That's a question. I'm trying to answer.
00:36:40If there's no question, that's fine. I'm sorry. No, that is a question. Did you? After the incident,
00:36:46we, along with the Little Rock police, called for an independent investigation
00:36:51being done by the Arkansas State Police and the local prosecutor. That's not trying to hide
00:36:56anything. I asked three questions. Why did you put the tape on the doorbell camera? Why did you cut
00:37:00the lights? And why didn't you wear the body cams? What are you trying to hide? Mr. Chairman,
00:37:07the reason that we called for the investigation is we're not trying to hide anything. The reason
00:37:11I'm not going to talk about what's going on in that investigation is to respect its independence
00:37:16and out of fairness. There's a reason for the Department of Justice policy that's existed for
00:37:21so many decades about not commenting on pending matters. It's not fair to people
00:37:27and it risks the perception that people are trying to influence. How about this one?
00:37:32Why did you ignore the rules? Because don't the rules say you should only use a no-knock
00:37:39entrance into a property if it's the only way, if it's the absolute best way to do it? I mean,
00:37:45I can read from Ms. Monaco's directive. Limit the circumstances in which agents may seek to
00:37:50inter-dwelling pursuant to a warrant without complying with the knock-and-announce rule
00:37:54because of the risk posed to both law enforcement and civilians. So you want to limit this.
00:37:58Why did you guys do it all in 57 seconds? Respectfully, with respect to what I said before,
00:38:07is that we are not trying to hide anything. An independent agency is investigating it
00:38:12and we, pursuant to long-standing policy, are not going to comment. Director, the Department
00:38:15of Justice has already told us you guys weren't wearing cameras. I'm just asking why.
00:38:20For the cameras, our body-worn camera policy, I can talk about that. I think I can answer the
00:38:26question without talking about this case. You can talk about some things relative to
00:38:29the investigation, but not others. We want all the answers to what's going on here.
00:38:33I will tell you, with respect to the body-worn camera policy, the Department of Justice announced
00:38:38that policy when it was announced, as we have communicated to your staff and you.
00:38:44It was announced that it would be phased implementation. ATF is implementing that
00:38:48policy. We've implemented it in just under a third of our field divisions.
00:38:53We have not received three separate requests for program funding from Congress to do so,
00:38:58but we are still doing it. I watched a hearing a couple of weeks ago where your fellow chairman—
00:39:03Did the Little Rock police officers who accompanied you on this raid, did they wear
00:39:08body cams? Again, not commenting on this specific case, but in general,
00:39:15the Department of Justice written policy allows local law enforcement on these types of
00:39:23operations, short-term operations, to follow their own guidelines and policies, if they wish,
00:39:31in body-worn cameras. And what I wanted to say is—
00:39:33Their policy was to wear them. They weren't wearing them that day. We want to know why.
00:39:37Did you tell them not to wear them?
00:39:39Mr. Chairman, again, it is simply unfair at this point, while there's a pending investigation—
00:39:49It's a simple question. We just want to know why they weren't following the rules.
00:39:53Their rules say wear body cameras. Your rules say wear body cameras. You weren't wearing body
00:39:57cameras. I go back to my original question. What were you trying to hide? We saw the video where
00:40:01you walked up and you put the tape on the doorbell. We know there were no lights to the foyer. We have
00:40:04Mrs. Malinowski here who can testify to that, and we know you weren't wearing body cameras.
00:40:08What were you hiding?
00:40:10Again, Mr. Chairman, we're not hiding anything. And with respect to the body-worn camera policy,
00:40:17the people there—
00:40:20Why on the 12th did you not go and search the home? You were all circled up ready to go,
00:40:26but a week before, on the 12th of March, you don't go. You go on the 19th.
00:40:31Why did you decide not to go on the 12th?
00:40:33Well, Mr. Chairman, these operations—and by the way, we do about 11,000 operations each year.
00:40:42They're very dangerous operations. ATF doesn't do anything that is not dangerous.
00:40:47Well, it's not quite true, but many of them are very, very dangerous.
00:40:52And those operations are handled by people with decades of law enforcement experience.
00:40:56They plan them. They look at things.
00:40:58Director, you've got to admit, this is a little unique. You've got a citizen,
00:41:02the highest paid official in the municipal government, Little Rock, Arkansas,
00:41:06making $260,000 a year, running the airport, no criminal background history, nothing.
00:41:12And he's dead at a pre-dawn raid when it sure looks like you could have served this search
00:41:19warrant when he wasn't there, but you decided not to. You decided to wait until he was home
00:41:23when you did it on March 19th. And as a result, Mr. Malinowski is no longer with us.
00:41:29Well, first of all, let me just say this, Mr. Chairman. Obviously,
00:41:36any time that there's a loss of life, that is a profound incident. And of course,
00:41:43on behalf of just myself, ATF, and all law enforcement, we are very sorry when those
00:41:47things happen. Also, an agent was shot that day, and I'm sure you are sorry that that occurred also.
00:41:53All the more reason to follow the no-knock warrant, not to have a no-knock warrant take
00:41:57place and follow the rules. Mr. Chairman, as somebody who has worked with law enforcement
00:42:03for decades, there's a great temptation when a horrible incident happens to prejudge. Sometimes
00:42:12people even try to use it to advance agendas. The cops who are in the field and the family-
00:42:17I just want the answers. My time has expired.
00:42:19The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Jordan, Mr. Johnson.
00:42:24Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Dettelbach, thank you for your service. Many of my colleagues and
00:42:31I have been strong proponents and supporters of the use of body cameras and funding for those
00:42:38cameras. And so, in some ways, it's rather surprising to read that Chairman Jordan
00:42:46recently criticized you- he just did it today- about body cameras and what happened to them,
00:42:54why they were not being worn. But meanwhile, House Republican Appropriations Committee Chair
00:43:02Hal Rogers, just last month, criticized your budget request for its department-wide emphasis
00:43:10on equipping federal agents with body cameras. Is there anything in response that you would
00:43:16like to say to Chairman Jordan, who supports the use of body cameras, versus Chairman Rogers,
00:43:24who wants to defund the use of body cameras? Well, it's not my position to get in the middle of
00:43:32two chairs, but I will say this. Anybody, Chairman Jordan or anybody,
00:43:37we've been implementing this policy for several years. Anybody who wants to support it,
00:43:43I welcome to the effort. And we need to fund it. And let me just move on, because
00:43:51there's been allegations that this gentleman who the Chairman just discussed, Mr. Malinowski,
00:44:00suggesting that he was just a hobbyist. You know, we call him an unlicensed gun dealer,
00:44:06but they say he was a hobbyist and a firearms enthusiast. In your opinion,
00:44:12is someone who buys and then almost immediately resells at least 150 firearms over a three-year
00:44:19period a hobbyist or an unlicensed gun dealer? Are they a hobbyist or an unlicensed gun dealer?
00:44:27My opinion and your opinion and others' opinions are not what counts. What counts
00:44:32is the federal judge's opinion, who reviewed the search warrant affidavit here and found probable
00:44:37cause that two separate federal laws had been violated relating to unlawful firearms
00:44:44acquisition and dealing. And in that affidavit, which is public,
00:44:49some of the things that are set forth are that Mr. Malinowski had not obtained a license,
00:44:57that he obtained about 150 firearms in the period prior to this incident, that he sold a good number
00:45:04of them, some one day after he had obtained them, that one of those firearms was found on the
00:45:11person of a 15-year-old Norteno gang member in California. Another was sold in the back seat of
00:45:18a car in Little Rock to a convicted robber. Others were found on a drug dealer in California, a kilo
00:45:28of marijuana, other drugs in the back, baggy scales consistent with distribution. And so
00:45:35respectfully, these are not victimless crimes, and it is up to Congress and the judge to make
00:45:44that determination. Those agents were present pursuant to the terms of a federally, federally
00:45:50judicially approved warrant. The time they were there was approved. The day they were there was
00:45:55approved. Let me ask you this. Do you have any idea how many unlicensed gun dealers, just like
00:46:01Mr. Malinowski, are operating in this country, selling multiple tens of hundreds of firearms
00:46:09yearly? I don't. Let me get back to you. We recently published a national firearms trafficking
00:46:16report that talked about the fact that the percentage of people who are trafficking in
00:46:22this manner has now grown to be the number one way that people are unlawfully dealing firearms.
00:46:28So 40% of all our criminal trafficking cases deal with the notion of people
00:46:33engaged in the business of dealing without a license. That has grown over time.
00:46:38Okay, let me get this question in. Prior to your confirmation in 2022,
00:46:46there had been a seven-year lapse between confirmed ATF directors to the time when you
00:46:56were confirmed. And during that seven-year period, the crime rate and violent crime rate in the
00:47:03country went up and was going up. And then COVID hit, which caused it to recede for a second.
00:47:15And then you were appointed. It's not a mere coincidence, is it, that your appointment and
00:47:23confirmation has resulted in a decrease in crime, in violent crime? To me, it's the men and women
00:47:31out in the field who are doing the work. I have the privilege to lead them, and I give all the
00:47:35credit to the brave ATF agents and police officers who are out there risking their lives. But thank
00:47:39you. Thank you for saying this, but it really is them who's doing the work. Well, without leadership,
00:47:45it's hard to get things done. And I thank you for your leadership. Thank you. And with that,
00:47:50I yield back. Gentleman yields back. Gentleman from Texas recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:47:54I believe with us today, Ms. Malinowski, if you're out there, would you please stand?
00:47:58I'd like to recognize you, Ms. Malinowski. First name is Mayer. Director, would you like
00:48:05to stand up and look at her and apologize? I've already said, of course, of course,
00:48:12whenever these things happen, it's a tragedy. Of course, we're sorry. Everybody is sorry that
00:48:18this occurred. Yeah, look at her. Don't look at me. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to also speak
00:48:25into the microphone. It doesn't mean that we can adjudicate this here today. There's an
00:48:31investigation going on. But of course, everybody and everybody feels bad. I'm sure that a federal
00:48:38agent was shot, not shot at, shot that day. Those things are hard facts for all of us. Okay. All
00:48:45right. Thank you, Mayor. First, I want to enter something into the record. Your testimony, you
00:48:51say guns are the leading cause of death for children in the U.S. Not according to Snoops.
00:48:56It's a far-left publication. It is traffic crashes. Could I have that entered into the record? Without
00:49:00objection, so ordered. Thank you so very much. You, I was a sheriff, eight years as in law
00:49:07enforcement, 30. Conducted a lot of search warrants. My agency, I would not allow for no-knocks. Just
00:49:13didn't allow it because what we've seen over the past several years, when you have these SWAT
00:49:17teams looking like ninjas coming to doors at six o'clock in the morning, it just could cause some
00:49:22problems. You stated in your testimony just a few minutes ago, 11,000 of these a year. Very dangerous.
00:49:28Very dangerous. Done with very experienced agents, right? What policies do you have when you are
00:49:35going to execute search warrants, arrest warrants, to mitigate risk? Mitigate risk. Yeah. So, so,
00:49:42Congressman, so, first of all, we, we do a very, very thorough job of training,
00:49:48which is, of course, as you know, as a sheriff, very important. Second, we have operations planning.
00:49:55We have review of the operation. Executing a search, well, thank you. Executing a search warrant
00:49:59pre-dawn, early in the morning, knowing people are going to be in bed. How does that mitigate risk?
00:50:04Uh. Especially when you do it and it's a no-knock. So, so, Congressman, as a, as a former
00:50:10sworn sheriff, I assume you would agree with me that police are entitled to due process also.
00:50:18Well, I, I tell you what it, what it appears to me is what I've seen from the federal government,
00:50:22whether it's ATF or the FBI, doing search warrants or arrest warrants on J6ers,
00:50:28going in there with flashbangs, with the big bearcats. I had a bearcat. I know what it is.
00:50:33And having agents come out looking like they're ninja, they're ninja turtles for combat. I think
00:50:39not only are you scaring the hell out of the entire neighborhood, but when you kick down or
00:50:44break down a door and you don't even announce who you are, what do you think is going to happen?
00:50:50This was Mr. Malinowski there to try to protect his family. He didn't know. If you would have
00:50:54called him, sir, had a casual conversation, did you, were you aware that he had no criminal history?
00:51:00Sheriff?
00:51:00I just want to ask a question. Are you aware, did you know the gentleman had no criminal history,
00:51:05no prior?
00:51:06Am I aware sitting here?
00:51:07Yes. Were you aware of it?
00:51:09In firearms trafficking cases and people who are dealing without a license and buying a hundred
00:51:13I'm sure there are a lot of bad hombres out there. I'm trying to focus on Mr. Malinowski.
00:51:18Were you personally aware that he didn't have a criminal history?
00:51:20Again, I'm trying to answer your question directly.
00:51:22Obviously it's quite clear you weren't. It's quite clear you weren't. And I want to talk about
00:51:27mitigating risk, but were your agents wearing body cameras that day?
00:51:33Again, I've tried to say this. I've liked the chance to answer this. The entire field division
00:51:37that covers Arkansas had not yet been phased in.
00:51:40You have a budget. Try to convince the American people you don't have the do-re-mi to put body
00:51:48cameras on your agents that are conducting 11,000 warrants. These are dangerous. You've got 11,000
00:51:57of them out there and you had a budget last year of $1.672 billion with a B. And you're telling me,
00:52:04I'm sorry folks, I can't provide this transparency to the American people. I can't because I don't
00:52:09have the budget to do so. The American people. There's a problem right now with law enforcement
00:52:15out there. And I have the picture and the image of every law enforcement officer that's been killed
00:52:19in the past three and a half years. And there's way too many. There's way too many on my wall.
00:52:24We agree.
00:52:24And so we have body-worn cameras. And why do we do that? Because there is a lack of trust between
00:52:30the police and the communities they serve. So when you provide these cameras, there's no he said,
00:52:35she said. It's all on record. And you didn't have your body cameras on that day? I'm telling you,
00:52:40it stinks to high heaven. I highly, highly recommend you cooperate with this committee
00:52:46and you try to explain other than this, I don't have the money to do so and I'm phasing it in.
00:52:52Buddy, you got to get your priorities, reshuffle your priorities and get your priorities in order.
00:52:57And I highly recommend you get body cameras on every one of those individuals that are
00:53:01searching these warrants because it seems like there's a cover up here. I yield back.
00:53:06Gentleman yields back. The gentleman from California, Mr. Cray has recognized.
00:53:09Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding this most important hearing.
00:53:13Mr. Director Dittlbach, thank you for being here today.
00:53:16Ms. Milonowski, I just want to say prayers are with you, with your family in this very
00:53:22difficult moment. I hope beyond the heated debate that we're having here today, we actually come up
00:53:27with better public policies to minimize the loss of life in these public safety enforcement actions.
00:53:37I also, Mr. Dittlbach would like to know what's it going to take to get those body cameras out
00:53:43in the field? What's it going to, how fast can we do it?
00:53:46We have them across a third of the United States having received no program increase at all. And,
00:53:51and we take them, we take that money and we balance it with stopping gangs that are killing people,
00:53:57stopping cartels, as Chairman Rogers point out with, that are the most dangerous organizations
00:54:02in the world, going after trigger pullers, homicide cases, carjackings. So we have made
00:54:10programmatic requests that are open to the public, $13 million in 2023, $37.8 million.
00:54:16How fast can we get them out to the other two-thirds that don't have them?
00:54:19Right, I'm saying we have, we have a pending request for a programmatic increase of $37.8
00:54:24million. It's the same request we made last year that was not given.
00:54:27How long do you think it's going to take to implement? How long will this take to implement?
00:54:31Currently, with what we have now, without anything else,
00:54:36uh, we will be implemented across the country, uh, by end of 2026. If there's more resources,
00:54:42uh, we can try to, to speed that up. But the, it's not just-
00:54:45I, as a member of Congress, hope I'm speaking for a few folks here, hope that we can, you know,
00:54:51expedite body cams being worn by our agents out there. This is an important issue. Love to work
00:54:58with you however we can to make sure that happens. And if I may, I'm going to ask you my first
00:55:03question, which is how do you guys work with state, local, international agencies to protect
00:55:08our public? Uh, Congressman-
00:55:10You were out in Orange County recently, my part of the town.
00:55:14I was. And we, uh, I, we there got to recognize work at the Orange County Violent Crime Task Force,
00:55:19which is a great example of how we work shoulder to shoulder with a variety of local police
00:55:24departments. And what we do is we target the worst of the worst. There was a case out there
00:55:28I remember, uh, hearing about. It was a series of Hobbs Act robberies, uh, that resulted in the
00:55:34death and murder of clerks at 7-Elevens, I believe. And that's a case where we partner with local law
00:55:39enforcement. And ATF has a little bit of a different way of doing this. If the most appropriate
00:55:45punishment is in the state courts and it's murder, that's fine with us. We're not looking for
00:55:50necessarily only federal cases. We look to do the case-
00:55:53Let me interrupt you. I've got a couple more questions here.
00:55:56August 22nd, I sent you a letter requesting your help, your partnership, specifically on
00:56:03a gun buyback program, voluntary gun buyback program that we implement in my district.
00:56:08Um, didn't get the support there. And I think it's important because this is a program where
00:56:14citizens voluntarily show up, free market, here's 200 bucks, here's a weapon I had at
00:56:20home that I haven't touched in 40 years. Yet ATF, have you been working on those or what
00:56:26is it that we can do to get you to work with us on those very successful programs?
00:56:31So with those programs, and I think of course we value public safety and we value state and
00:56:37local agencies determinations of what protects them. Uh, with respect to gun buyback programs,
00:56:43that's usually a decision and a program run by the state and local agencies, not the federal
00:56:48agencies. We need your help in executing those. Well, sometimes agencies can and do apply for,
00:56:56for burn grant money that can support their comprehensive plans. Uh, but ATF does not, uh,
00:57:04get involved in the, in the actual operation of gun buyback programs that is done by state and
00:57:11local authorities. We'll talk some more later, but I do think these are important programs.
00:57:19You get guns off the street, guns that people don't want anymore. They'd rather have a hundred,
00:57:25$200 in their hand as opposed to a weapon cost-effective, nobody gets hurt.
00:57:32And we do need your help. It's local, but we need ATF's database to make sure when those
00:57:37guns are brought back, we can run them through a database to see if they've been involved in
00:57:42any crimes to make sure that those are guns that we can take off the street without destroying
00:57:47evidence. Go ahead, sir. I've got Congressman. Thank you. We will work with you. We will get,
00:57:51I commit to you that we will get back to you and your staff on that.
00:57:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield the rest of my time. I thank the gentleman. I recognize myself
00:57:59now. Director, uh, you accused a dead man of a crime of, of illegally selling in the backseat
00:58:08a weapon. And would I hear that correctly? Respectfully, what I did was talked about
00:58:13the public search warrant affidavit that was filed and approved by the judge.
00:58:18I understand, but you're standing by your search warrant. You're standing by the fact
00:58:22that in the search warrant, you're alleging that he had committed a crime. Is that correct?
00:58:26I, I, chairman, respectfully, I was making the point that a federal magistrate...
00:58:30No, no, no. You're not being respectful. Answer the question. The question is,
00:58:34did you allege that he had committed a felony, a crime, uh, in your affidavit?
00:58:42The judge did find that.
00:58:43Okay. Well, I'll take that as the judge found it because you alleged it.
00:58:48So you alleged a crime, but you didn't seek to arrest him, did you?
00:58:53Do you have an arrest warrant for Mr. Malinowski?
00:58:56My understanding...
00:58:57That's a yes or no, Director.
00:58:59My understanding is that, my understanding is that there was not an arrest warrant. I don't
00:59:03have the full investigative file, but that is my understanding.
00:59:05You came here, you knew we were going to ask, you saw yesterday, and now you're, you're playing
00:59:10one of the games that the chairman and I didn't like during Fast and Furious, we don't like it
00:59:15now. If you want to be back here again, because you can't seem to know what you should know,
00:59:21what Mrs. Malinowski deserves to know, if, if some group of ten carloads of people
00:59:30showed up and kicked in a door in the dark of night, and somebody came and shot at them,
00:59:37we wouldn't be talking about somebody getting shot in the toe, we'd be talking exclusively
00:59:42about a planned murder of somebody who may or may not be armed, but who had every right to
00:59:48have weapons in their home, an expectation they had weapons in their home, an expectation that
00:59:53they might use it. All of that, you don't have to be ATF to know. So let's go back on track here
01:00:00again. If you had a belief that he had committed a crime, and if your intent was to arrest him,
01:00:10then that would explain why a week earlier you called off an already authorized search,
01:00:18because you were only going to search for the weapons, you weren't going to search
01:00:21for him. Isn't that correct? Respectfully, Mr. Chairman, I am not able, and will not,
01:00:31it's not fair to do this during the pendency of a criminal investigation. No, no, look,
01:00:35it's always, I'm sorry, but DOJ and you guys, it's always, you can go on forever.
01:00:42Hunter Biden's over. Why didn't you do a no-knock on him at his home with the Vice President?
01:00:48To be clear, this isn't our investigation. We in the Little Rock Police asked an outside
01:00:52investigation be conducted by the Arkansas State Police. It's their investigation.
01:00:58The district attorney's going to review that. And I hope they appropriately find
01:01:03that in spite of qualified immunity, that you blew it badly enough that in fact,
01:01:11criminal charges should be considered. I hope they just find whatever the truth is.
01:01:15What is the penalty for the crime alleged on the affidavit for selling a weapon not as a
01:01:22licensed dealer? What's the penalty? Oh my Lord. Mr. Chairman, I believe it's a 10-year felony and
01:01:29there are two different crimes. This might be a five-year and a 10-year felony. I want to get
01:01:32back to you to make sure that there's a series of statutes that run all in a row there. I want
01:01:37to make sure I'm not mixing up the stats. But it's five years or it's 10 years. It's not a death
01:01:42penalty. Is that correct? There is not a death penalty for that statute, no. Okay. So Mr.
01:01:49Malinowski was not in any danger of being executed for what he is alleged to have done and no longer
01:01:57can defend himself because he's dead. But he was killed doing what any normal citizen does when
01:02:05people enter the home in the dark of night and they don't know who they are. If he had body cameras,
01:02:12maybe, maybe Mrs. Malinowski didn't hear right. Maybe you said police and identified yourself.
01:02:19Maybe he said I don't care and maybe he fired the shots. I don't believe that and I don't think you
01:02:25do either. I believe he had every real belief that he was defending his wife and family.
01:02:33He fired warning shots. A ricochet hit a police officer or an ATF agent and you killed him.
01:02:42Those are the facts. I have been investigating ATF for many years and ATF agents have rightfully so
01:02:51and you know with great trepidation I'm sure come forth and been our whistleblowers and we've
01:02:57consistently seen there are two ATFs. The one we need and want and and deserve and the one that
01:03:04plays fast and loose like 10 cars going in deliberately with a warrant that did not entitle
01:03:10an arrest when in fact if you wanted to arrest him it would have been reasonable to arrest him
01:03:15at work and simultaneously go into his home. If he had done that he'd be alive today and we'd
01:03:20be talking about other things including whether you acted legally. With that I yield back
01:03:27and recognize Ms. Scanlon for five minutes. Thank you chairman and thank you director for
01:03:33your testimony here today. The ranking member mentioned that every single day 120 Americans
01:03:39are shot and killed and more than 200 are wounded with gunfire. Those numbers aren't statistics.
01:03:46Every one is an American with a family and neighbors and friends. Yesterday morning at 8 30
01:03:52a.m a gunman killed two people and injured three others at a small family-owned business in Chester,
01:03:59Pennsylvania right down the street from my office. Five people were shot. Their co-workers and
01:04:05community were traumatized just for showing up at work in the morning. This unrelenting unnecessary
01:04:13daily toll of gun violence is hitting families in every corner of every community across our country.
01:04:20Yesterday it happened in Chester a post-industrial city that straddles interstate 95 which is known
01:04:27in law enforcement as the iron pipeline because it's the route that gun traffickers regularly use
01:04:33to smuggle weapons from states with weak gun laws to states with stricter ones. The senseless
01:04:40violence is outrageous but it's not inevitable. There are things we can do. This violence is
01:04:47enabled by lawmakers who choose to do nothing, who block legislation in the wake of tragedy after
01:04:54tragedy while the American people are crying out for real action. Whenever Democrats try to explore
01:05:00how Congress can act to stem this uniquely American carnage our Republican colleagues say
01:05:06the solution is to enforce the laws that are already on the books but here we are once again
01:05:11in a hearing in which Republicans are attacking ATF, the law enforcement agency charged with
01:05:18primary responsibility for enforcing gun safety laws across our country and it comes while our
01:05:23Republican colleagues have bills to abolish ATF and have succeeded in getting cuts to its budget.
01:05:30So Director Dettelbach I want to turn our focus to what might be real solutions and your agency's
01:05:37role in helping to implement them. You spoke in your testimony about a thousand percent increase
01:05:43in ghost guns linked to crimes over the past five years. Whenever I speak to our local law
01:05:48enforcement including last night they talk to me about how worried they are about the rapid
01:05:54proliferation of ghost guns. Ghost gun recovery is increased by over 400 percent in Philadelphia
01:06:00between 2019 and 2021. Our Delaware County Police busted a gun trafficker who was building and
01:06:08testing ghost guns in an apartment across the street from our county courthouse and our Montgomery
01:06:13County Police recently busted a whole ghost gun trafficking ring. These fully functioning
01:06:20untraceable firearms can be bought without a background check. They can be ordered online and
01:06:26in less than an hour become a firearm as deadly as any sold by a gun dealer and that's why they've
01:06:33become as you noted the weapon of choice for people who might be otherwise barred from purchasing a
01:06:37gun for criminals. So am I correct that ghost guns look like regular guns and shoot like regular guns
01:06:45and kill like regular guns? You are. Okay now can you explain why they're posing such a danger
01:06:51to the American public and why ATF determined it was necessary to issue a rule amending the
01:06:57definition of frame a receiver to ensure that ghost guns are treated like other equally lethal
01:07:04firearms under our laws? Congresswoman the reason is as you said under our laws under the Gun
01:07:12Control Act Congress specifically provided that items that were readily convertible to being
01:07:17operable firearms should be treated as firearms. The market was was out there producing items that
01:07:25were readily convertible and they were being sold without background checks. I actually I did myself
01:07:31I took one of these kits and put the gun together my my spouse will tell you I'm I don't not that
01:07:37handy around the house but it was very easy for me to make a firearm take it to the range and fire
01:07:43it. These are firearms that shoot and wound and kill like like firearms that are sold in the
01:07:50traditional manner. Congress anticipated that problem. The market changed and we issued a rule
01:07:56to make sure that Congress's statute was appropriately enforced. And we appreciate that given
01:08:02the constant innovation that we see from gun manufacturers and those who seek to evade the
01:08:09existing laws if we were to wait for Congress to catch up all the time would be in a lot of trouble.
01:08:15Chairman I would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter from ATF's acting deputy
01:08:20assistant director for public and governmental affairs in which he responded to your letter
01:08:25regarding the execution of the search warrant on Mr. Malinowski's residence and about ATF's
01:08:31compliance with DOJ's body warm camera policy. Okay just so you're aware of which letter it is
01:08:37it's the one May 21st that responded to your request which you referenced earlier.
01:08:44Thank you and it discusses the funding necessary. Got it. I yield back. The gentleman from Florida
01:08:50is recognized. Thank you Mr. Chairman. So the ATF has a final rule I think the comments and the rule
01:08:57itself accumulate to about 466 pages that define who is engaged in the business of firearms
01:09:04dealing. So how many firearms does someone have to sell to be engaged in the business of firearm
01:09:10dealing? Congressman as you know that matter is being litigated in several courts. So sticking
01:09:18to what's already in the public record the rule itself is 16 pages skipping lines and there's
01:09:26about as you say over 400 pages of explanation. Yeah. And so there are factors that are conduct
01:09:34based not numerical based but conduct based. There's a also we received many comments one
01:09:40of the comments that we received was from I think Senator Cornyn who expressed a view
01:09:47that there was no numerical threshold others had a different view. Yeah in the House Judiciary
01:09:52Committee we probably won't look to Senator Cornyn as the oracle of all things gun rights
01:09:56but you know as to so you're saying there really is no number. I'm saying that Congress our job
01:10:02is to implement the statute that Congress writes. Yeah no but for a regular person for a regular
01:10:07person that one form or another acquires guns and they're trying to figure out how many of these
01:10:13guns do I sell before I have to register as a dealer. What you're saying is there is no bright
01:10:18line there. I'm saying that there is now more information than ever in the form of that rule
01:10:23for specific conduct. No but I think I think just for a regular person more information than ever
01:10:30is probably less helpful than if you sell three guns you're not a dealer and if you sell four
01:10:35guns then you are a dealer right. And and this rule that you guys have drafted it's currently
01:10:40enjoined right. It has no effect. There is there are three cases that I know of maybe more going
01:10:47on now. One of the judges has issued equitable relief. So in Texas a judge has stopped the
01:10:54implementation of this law for three reasons. One is that there's no minimum minimum requirement
01:11:01and the court has found this court in Texas that you aren't just giving effect and life
01:11:08to Congress's statutes. You've in fact exceeded your authority because Congress would have never
01:11:14allowed some sort of sliding scale where 16 pages of single spaced whatever determines whether or
01:11:20not you're a firearm dealer not how many guns you sell. There's a second reason that court in Texas
01:11:27said that this would not have effect and it's that actual profit is not a requirement of the
01:11:33statute only the predominant intent for profit. How do you understand that ruling? Again that's
01:11:41in litigation. The Department of Justice's positions on each and every one of these matters
01:11:45is public. It is laid out in many many pages of briefing and so I would I would ask people to
01:11:52look at our briefs that we filed in the court and I would commend your attention. But if someone's
01:11:56just trying to figure out whether or not they have to get a federal license or be subject to
01:12:01your guys breaking their doors down and potentially killing them you would think that you'd want that
01:12:05to be easily understandable and here even if someone isn't turning a profit but they might
01:12:11want to turn a profit they could be subject to this regulation and the court found that troubling
01:12:16and then the the third reason the court identified is that your rule doesn't just give meaning to
01:12:24Congress's statute but that quote arbitrarily eviscerates the safe harbor for provision. So
01:12:31there's a safe harbor provision of this law that says if you're just engaged in the occasional sale
01:12:37or exchange or purchase of a firearm for a personal collection or a hobby that this wouldn't
01:12:44this regular regulatory structure wouldn't affect you but what the court is saying here
01:12:48in blocking your rule is that you you have eviscerated the safe harbor that exists for
01:12:55the hobbyist. Do you have a reaction to that ruling? Again yes our our position uh is is not
01:13:01that but I it's under litigation we have filed extensive here we are make your argument I mean
01:13:07they're sitting here in court trying to figure out what Congress means what we're saying is there
01:13:11should definitely be a bright line in terms of guns you shouldn't have to have this pondering
01:13:15question about profit motive and you shouldn't eviscerate the safe harbor that's what we're
01:13:20saying so what's your argument as to why the safe harbor should be eviscerated?
01:13:25Our argument is to look to the statute that Congress wrote the statute that Congress wrote
01:13:31and I just want to make clear that people understand this uh uh there was an earlier
01:13:35comment about the word livelihood that's not in the law anymore that Congress wrote Congress took
01:13:39that out of the law it doesn't exist anymore um so we start with the statute that's where things
01:13:46always begin and end. I know I know you started with the statute but what this court is saying
01:13:49is that you have exceeded the statute you've done it in a way that eviscerates the safe harbor that
01:13:54blurs the lines and that creates no discernible way for people to comply with the law and the
01:13:58reason I think you guys are doing that is you want to make it more difficult for people to
01:14:03engage in the legal lawful and constitutionally contemplated manner to transfer firearms and
01:14:08you're trying to criminalize an entire enterprise and that's why you see us trying to curtail some
01:14:12of your funding and your authorities. I see my time's expired Mr. Chairman I yield back.
01:14:16Gentleman yields back uh the gentlelady from uh Georgia is recognized.
01:14:22Thank you Chairman uh thank you uh Director Dettelbach thank you for coming before the
01:14:28Judiciary Committee again I really appreciate it I know that the work that you do really saves
01:14:34lives I know that and it protects our communities and helps many of us sleep a little bit better at
01:14:39night and me in particular I for one as well as many of my colleagues here we do truly understand
01:14:46the ATF plays a pivotal role in preventing gun violence by removing gun traffickers from our
01:14:53neighborhoods ensuring that only lawful and abiding gun owners can purchase firearms and
01:14:59assisting law enforcement at every level in solving gun gun crimes and this committee has had
01:15:05many field hearings on victims of violent crimes and well it's ATF's job to do so to do that very
01:15:13thing to bring our perpetrators to um that are violent crimes to bring them to justice the most
01:15:20logical thing for us to do today is find ways to support you to support ATF's mission to reduce
01:15:27violent gun crimes we should not defund or we should not abolish the ATF the very agency that's
01:15:36actually eliminating any semblance of need for victims of violent crime hearing anywhere in this
01:15:44country and today we need to hear from you director director you know if you can just tell us we need
01:15:52to find out from you how we can actually assist you and support the ATF and its mission to reduce
01:15:58illegal firearm use and purchases eliminate firearm threats and protect our families our
01:16:04friends and our fellow americans director daddleback the bipartisan safer communities act
01:16:11the most significant gun safety legislation that we've had in almost 30 years has made a has made
01:16:17tremendous progress and i've been monitoring the progress of this package of work uh in eliminating
01:16:23gun violence as a public health crisis and the initiatives that have been set forth in this law
01:16:29include parts of my plan for the implementation of extremist protection orders on those programs
01:16:35and also laws that ensure that firearms are not in the hands of those in court who have been found
01:16:42through the due process to be a danger to themselves or to the community and then also funding for
01:16:48community violence interventions in that program in that package of work as well and working to
01:16:53close the gun show loophole but my colleagues director daddleback have touched on how ATF cuts
01:17:00have affected state and local law enforcement but would you like to expand on that for us because
01:17:06this is really important and critical information that i think the country really needs to hear
01:17:11protecting americans from violent crime is at the core of everything we do at ATF
01:17:16and that means that so many of our strategies and resources depend on supporting local law
01:17:22enforcement sheriff's departments police departments state police i go and meet with
01:17:29those folks everywhere i go all the time and the things that we do help them to close homicide cases
01:17:36arrest gang members get carjackers in philadelphia off the street stop the southbound flow of
01:17:43firearms there are nine trafficking strike strike forces on the border to the cartels
01:17:49that present a danger to public safety in all those towns for all those sheriffs across the border
01:17:55we do all of those things every day and on top of it are our cjx our crime gun intelligence centers
01:18:00which are being put up all over the country are places where local state federal agents sit
01:18:06together often with prosecutors and evaluate violent crime cases in real time so that the
01:18:12next morning we can be out on the streets investigating the most violent people
01:18:17budget cuts make all of that less and harder everybody wants a cjx we can't give everybody
01:18:25a cjx because we don't have enough money for that and if we cut more money we're cutting those crime
01:18:30gun intelligence centers that lead to operations that day the next day the next week they get
01:18:36violent criminals off the street so am i correct in understanding then that you need full support
01:18:42and funding of the atf yes not just me the agents who are out there risking their lives need and
01:18:49deserve that support and might i say being a mother who lost her son to gun violence i will tell you
01:18:56that law enforcement worked very hard on our behalf i know they do this work every single day
01:19:02and i'm just really grateful for the atf i'm grateful for the law enforcement i am grateful
01:19:07for those that are on the front lines every single day doing everything that you express
01:19:11because it's vital it's necessary and this is a public health crisis and thank you for the work
01:19:16that you're doing and all the agents and people that work with you to keep our community safe
01:19:20and i yield back generally yields back gentlemen from arizona's recognition director have you ever
01:19:26been a cop excuse me have you ever been a cop i have not been a police officer i was a prosecutor
01:19:32yeah so so you don't have decades of law enforcement experience but you said you
01:19:36worked with law enforcement right that's fair to say right i was a prosecutor for over 20 years
01:19:42and five different offices you worked with law enforcement you aren't law enforcement so is it
01:19:47common for atf to turn off the power to a location prior to executing a search warrant uh is it
01:19:52common for us to do that uh i i do not believe it is a common thing that we do you're the director
01:19:57you either know it is common or you don't know whether i thought i answered the question i'm
01:20:02sorry uh uh is it common it's my understanding is it's not common and and i want to be very careful
01:20:08to say i'm not commenting on any case because i'm not sure until the facts come in i asked you about
01:20:12a specific case sir i did not did i i asked you about policy you just said it's not common next
01:20:18does the atf use rf frequency jamming technology to prevent the internet and cell phones from
01:20:22working sir sir i'm sorry i does the atf use rf frequency jamming technology to prevent the
01:20:28internet and cell phones from working during the execution of a search warrant uh again i i am not
01:20:35going to sit here and i guess i maybe should have said this before and comment on the tactics that
01:20:40we use when we go into dangerous places because it provides a blueprint for criminals let's let's get
01:20:46this straight then you told us you won't answer anything specifically about a case now you're
01:20:51saying you're not going to tell us generically we could maybe we can contact your staff in
01:20:55private setting and have a conversation instead of broadcasting for all the criminals uh what's
01:21:01the atf use dynamic entry is there means for entry during the execution of a search warrant
01:21:06again does the atf still use dynamic entry as their means for entry in during the execution
01:21:12of a search warrant again i i don't think it's appropriate and we can we can communicate with
01:21:19you on these kinds of training issues i just don't want to to give a public blueprint for people
01:21:25tomorrow and the next day who are going to be facing law enforcement through the door to know
01:21:29how we're coming what we're doing do you assess pattern of life as a part of risk assessment
01:21:34conducted prior to executing a search warrant uh can you answer that's far enough a field that that
01:21:40i could say depending on the case we can assess pattern of life at times of course depends on the
01:21:46case right some cases it's appropriate some cases it's not these are career i don't do this right
01:21:51the career law enforcement people as you pointed out do this with decades of experience i don't
01:21:55armchair quarterback them either but here's the deal you're the director and i would expect that
01:22:00you would know what the policy is and and and looks to me i i you've convinced me that maybe
01:22:07mr nels was right i'm not sure that i thought he was right but you don't even you didn't want to
01:22:11tell us specifically about the malinowski case i got that i think it's wrong i think it's it's it's
01:22:19it's a false narrative but then when we start asking you i start asking you about policies
01:22:24generic policies now all of a sudden you don't want to answer those um mr congress when you
01:22:30coordinate with local law enforcement prior uh you do coordinate with local law enforcement prior to
01:22:36the execution of a search warrant in in most cases yes there are in it certainly most of our cases
01:22:41we're doing shoulder to shoulder with law enforcement these are yes or no questions
01:22:45thank you for answering yes it is the eight is it the atf's practice to instruct law enforcement
01:22:50partners to turn off their body cameras when participating in search warrants with atf
01:22:55atf's written policies that are in our mous is that if a local law enforcement agency has a
01:23:00body worn camera policy and we're going on one of these short-term operations they are entitled to
01:23:05follow their own policy if they wish that is that that is in black and white can you tell us the
01:23:10difference on how the atf would handle a search warrant on violent felon on a violent felon versus
01:23:15an individual who allegedly sold a few firearms without a license is there a distinction in your
01:23:20mind is that in your in every in every case we do risk assessment and it's dependent upon all
01:23:27the facts and circumstances uh of any particular matter uh so in every case we do it but you can't
01:23:34boil it down to one or two things it's a risk assessment that experts who are risking their
01:23:38lives conduct how does the atf balance the need for operational security and the need for the
01:23:42safety to the public we have to do you're asking about balancing i think you said operational
01:23:47security and we have to keep the public safe that's obviously paramount but police officers
01:23:54are entitled to go home alive at the end of their shift also and we also have to make sure that
01:23:59we're doing that as well you have to do both so you didn't answer the question the question
01:24:04presupposed exactly what you just said we know that you have to balance it how do you balance it
01:24:09that's the question how do you balance the answer is both are paramount and we have to do both in
01:24:15each operation but i will tell you this there's no such thing for a police officer as no risk
01:24:21they sign up we sign up the agents sign up to risk their lives uh and they often go into very
01:24:27dangerous situations in order to do that so there's no way to mitigate all of their risks sometimes
01:24:32very dangerous risk uh from any operation and we understand that we appreciate that
01:24:37now i i have to say that you didn't answer mr massey's and i my letter our letters to you
01:24:44i'm hoping that you said you're going to give us additional responses to the questions i've
01:24:48asked you today i would anticipate that you'd give more fulsome answers than you gave us
01:24:53regarding the the bomb pipe bombing issue gentleman yields back the gentlelady from
01:24:57washington's recognized thank you mr chairman director dettelbach thank you for being here
01:25:02uh one major cause of migration into the united states is instability and violence in parts of
01:25:08central america which is partly fueled by the flow of firearms from the united states into mexico
01:25:15central america and the caribbean atf reported that more than half of crime guns were covered
01:25:20in central america 70 of crime guns in mexico and 80 of crime guns in caribbean countries
01:25:29are sourced from the united states fueling instability and migration but my republican
01:25:36colleagues have refused to support common sense gun safety legislation that would fight the flow
01:25:41of american guns across the southern border and help address the root causes of migration
01:25:47instead house republicans have continued to criticize the bureau undermine resources to
01:25:53allow officers to do their jobs and oppose common sense gun safety legislation at almost every turn
01:26:00could you describe any recent or current trends that atf has found
01:26:05regarding the flow of firearms from the united states into mexico and central america
01:26:11um so atf's job obviously includes uh firearms trafficking and one of the types of firearms
01:26:19trafficking we're seeing right there's domestic firearms trafficking that goes to california and
01:26:25new york and places all over the country there's also southbound firearms trafficking and it is
01:26:30accurate to say and we shouldn't be reticent to say it it's the truth that our firearms that
01:26:37are going across the border southbound are helping to arm the cartels that's right um so what do we
01:26:44what do we see uh we have uh nine task forces that are southbound task forces set up along
01:26:51the border they work with state and local law enforcement they work with dhs and we have the
01:26:56opposite problem right other people are trying to stop things from coming north we're focused
01:27:00on stopping firearms trafficking going south they're related sometimes but but congresswoman
01:27:06what we see is that uh criminal organizations including the cartels are using uh our freedoms
01:27:14against us so they're they're developing straw purchasing networks for instance where they're
01:27:20going into firearms stores and sending somebody in there without a record paying them a small
01:27:25amount of money and getting them to buy large uh military grade weapons 50s you know uh
01:27:34uh that can be easily converted to machine guns down south uh paying cash and doing it over and
01:27:41over and over again so what are we doing we're working with firearms licensees across the
01:27:46southwest border and now increasingly elsewhere because the cartels adapt right one of the things
01:27:51you asked about trends they're going elsewhere now not just on the southwest border they're going to
01:27:56other states to try to arm themselves uh so these are disturbing trends uh these are very sophisticated
01:28:03vicious organizations and the atf and our partners are doing everything we can interdictions
01:28:09southbound interdictions are up in double digits year over year we're very proud of that but we
01:28:14should not uh fool ourselves that the problem is solved these are very wealthy aggressive violent
01:28:22entities thank you when you were here last year we discussed your partnership with state and local
01:28:26law enforcement to implement the stop illegal trafficking in firearms act which congress
01:28:32included in the 2022 bipartisan safer communities act you've spoken about some elements but could
01:28:38you provide any other additional update on uh your extensive efforts to implement that legislation
01:28:46yes um so uh there were two separate criminal statutes that congress uh created one of them
01:28:52was a straw purchasing statute first ever the other is the trafficking statute both have been
01:28:58exceedingly useful both in individual cases of firearms trafficking and in larger organizational
01:29:04efforts uh with respect to cartels and criminal organizations all over the country so these are
01:29:09tools that we continue to use um we continue to work with the u.s attorneys community uh in
01:29:16appropriate cases to get appropriate punishments in those matters there are new statutes and again
01:29:22as i said when i explained to everybody and what we explained to judges is that firearms trafficking
01:29:28is not a victimless crime we don't see the victim in front of us but so often the firearms sixty
01:29:36percent of those traffic firearms are going to felons and prohibited people and they're using to
01:29:41hurt innocent law-abiding americans that's what we have to do to implement we have to make people
01:29:47understand that the distributors are also responsible if they're breaking the law and just
01:29:53quickly many of the guns recovered from crime scenes south of the border are bought legally
01:29:58in the united states how can we stop that from happening and what resources do you need from
01:30:02congress well when a firearm is purchased legally in the united states uh and it crosses the border
01:30:09uh that's that's a little bit different right that's that's a situation where those who whose
01:30:14full-time job it is to police the border are probably the lead at atf what we do is we try to
01:30:20to focus on illegal activity uh the black market and firearms now it's a little bit ambiguous
01:30:27congresswoman because of course something can look like a legal sale but it's really a straw
01:30:31purchaser right and that's why when somebody walks into a store who doesn't even know really what to
01:30:36ask for plunks down twelve thousand five hundred and fifty two dollars in cash and they're 20 miles
01:30:42from the border and there's somebody waiting outside in the parking lot for them that dropped
01:30:46them off that we depend on so many firearms dealers to figure out a way to pick up the phone
01:30:51and help us and they do quite often but then what happens is the cartels look for the the one that
01:30:56won't do that right so we have to get the word out to a minority of dealers not the majority are
01:31:03trying to do the right thing the minority of dealers because the enemy the cartels are seeking
01:31:08them out to try to find weak links thank you i yield back mr chairman the lady yields back the
01:31:13gentleman from california is recognized for five minutes mr denel beck i'm just curious um have you
01:31:17expressed remorse to mr malinowski's widow and family i'm sorry have you expressed remorse to
01:31:24mr malinowski's widow i i i will now and i have before this morning yes what what have you said
01:31:30to them well i i said it here in in open forum but what i said was of course have you talked
01:31:36personally have you i'm sorry have you have you talked to them personally have you expressed
01:31:40your sympathy to them personally or you just make public statements and issue press releases
01:31:45would the gentleman yield no answer the question please uh yes he just did it all right thank you
01:31:52um did you know about this rate in advance uh we do uh 11 000 operations a year and uh i believe
01:32:02that i and and it would be did you know about this one mr dettelbach yes or no and i believe
01:32:07the first i heard about this matter was after the fact and what and and and what have you
01:32:12disciplined what have you done sorry what have you done in response to what we we went together with
01:32:18the with the little rock police who were also present we went and we requested an outside agency
01:32:24to do an independent investigation we fully cooperated with that investigation that investigation
01:32:29my understanding is the file has now been turned over i think this committee is going to want to
01:32:34look in into this matter in in much greater detail i need to to press on let me just ask
01:32:40you a general question what what what do you think is the purpose of the second amendment
01:32:45like all the amendments the purpose of the second amendment is to protect fundamental
01:32:48rights of americans and you believe that a fundamental right of america includes the right
01:32:52to bear arms i believe that all the rights in the bill of rights are important and fundamental
01:32:57rights including the second amendment right in in the second half of 2021 uh only 34 inspections
01:33:04led to a firearms dealer having their license revoked however the number of qualifying violations
01:33:11dramatically increased to 252 in 2022 and jumped again to 407 in 2023 now either there's been an
01:33:20exponential increase in crooked firearms dealers since biden took over there's been an exponential
01:33:25increase uh in zealotry by your agency i i assume you would say it's the latter
01:33:32uh i the laws that congress has passed and have been in effect say that willful violators of the
01:33:38gun control act are subject to uh they may have their licenses provoked exponential increase i
01:33:44mean just off the charts uh uh since since you took office and that seems to coincide
01:33:50with a dramatic reduction uh in people willing to legally expose themselves to pre-dawn
01:33:56raids on their homes a number of voluntary business closures post-inspection has risen
01:34:01sharply from 24 in 2021 to 69 in 2022 to 80 in 2023 now this tells me that this is a deliberate
01:34:12policy to drive firearms dealers out of the business not only with the reign of legal terror
01:34:17but in the case mr malinowski the actual reign of physical terror as well now i know you're not
01:34:22going to agree with that but can you at least see how that appears to others respectfully i disagree
01:34:28the enhanced enforcement policy which is publicly available the terms of it state very clearly that
01:34:34we're not talking about paperwork violations we're talking about willful violations that
01:34:38impact on public safety like refusing to run a background check settling to a felon
01:34:44uh uh not not not respond what we're seeing is is is an exponential increase in in in uh
01:34:53actions against dealers followed by an exponential increase in dealers just saying this isn't worth
01:34:59the legal exposure uh i'm i'm out of here what's involved in getting a federal firearms license
01:35:05uh there is a process to get a license right you fill out an application you pay a 200 fee
01:35:13and there's a compliance inspection or not a compliance inspection an application
01:35:17inspection that goes on but like just like uh the inspections and the process for a revocation
01:35:26for a compliance matter there is ample due process there are hearings that go on in our
01:35:31own hearings it's a fairly lengthy process now your agency's rule says quote that even a single
01:35:40transaction or offer to engage in a transaction or offer to engage in a transaction when combined
01:35:46with other evidence may be sufficient to require a license as an ffl what does that mean that is
01:35:53that that is one sentence out of a 16 page rule what the rule says this this is a matter before
01:36:03the courts our positions on all of these things are in pages and pages of briefs that it would
01:36:08take far too long and i i know you have time limits but i refer you to those briefs it's not
01:36:13a secret but what i would say to you is it says in black and white things that might lead to
01:36:20uh a determination under the totality of circumstances that somebody is engaged in the
01:36:25business and things that don't so so if if somebody uh admires my gun collection and i say you want to
01:36:32buy it would that require an ffl there is a specific provision that congress has passed
01:36:38that says that that people who are bona fide collectors can liquidate their collections uh
01:36:44without becoming a licensee that's not what this but of course you would have and i think that's
01:36:48what you described but you'd have to look at obviously the whole that's not what your new rule
01:36:52says i respectfully i disagree it says in black and white that that is allowed gentlemen yields
01:36:58back to the director you've been at it we've been at it an hour and 45 minutes it's just
01:37:01recognized if you need a break just let us know we'll be happy to take a break if not we'll
01:37:04if you're willing we'll keep going before recognize the gentleman from uh california
01:37:10you were getting ready to say you you had an outside investigation and you turned it over to
01:37:14and you didn't say who's that's been turned over to they i believe they publicly announced the
01:37:19arkansas state police that they turned over their investigative file to the sixth district uh
01:37:25prosecutor's office it's it's pulaski county arkansas uh the state prosecutors and i believe
01:37:31this is all public i haven't had contact with them uh because i want to make sure that it's
01:37:37independent right yeah but uh i believe that they're reviewing it okay uh that i that part
01:37:43i think we know that they're reviewing it got a gentleman from california's recognition
01:37:48uh director welcome and i want to thank you and the brave men and women in law enforcement who
01:37:56serve your agency every day and i've got some questions for you in a moment um but there's
01:38:03something that is imminent and i'm concerned about because it just put a target on the back
01:38:09of everybody in law enforcement at the federal level and the local level and that
01:38:17is a statement that one of our colleagues made earlier this week and we have jurisdiction over
01:38:24the fbi as well as the atf but marjorie taylor green of georgia said the biden doj and fbi were
01:38:33planning to us the biden doj and fbi were planning to assassinate president trump
01:38:38and gave the green light does everyone get it yet what are republicans going to do
01:38:46about it this is quite a concerning statement from an elected member of congress because
01:38:55this false statement creates the pretext for violence it suggests to americans who by the
01:39:04way are armed to the teeth we're a country where the most dangerous people have access to the most
01:39:09dangerous weapons and it suggests to them that their own government and the people who wear the
01:39:16badge are out to assassinate the former president and i just want to first clear up this falsity
01:39:23and the fbi this week has issued a statement to do that but first and foremost the search
01:39:28at mar-a-lago the former president was not there and that was intentional so if there was an effort
01:39:35to assassinate the former president they went at a time when he was not there second the former
01:39:42president was actually treated better than most people during a raid because the fbi didn't go
01:39:48in with the raid jackets they wore polo shirts to show a little bit of respect to the former
01:39:53president and not make it a raid like environment third standard use of force procedures were
01:40:01followed during that search as they were followed in every search including fourth the same search
01:40:10procedures and use of force policy that was used to retrieve documents at president biden's delaware
01:40:18residence this is a pretext for violence and i will yield to any of my colleagues who will join me
01:40:25in condemning it i will yield to any colleague who will condemn the suggestion by marjorie taylor
01:40:34green that the fbi was out to assassinate former president trump please condemn it because if you
01:40:42don't you are encouraging it and you're cosigning it mr mcclintock please of course we do what a
01:40:48ridiculous question what a ridiculous statement that she made i i agree with you and i don't
01:40:53think there's anyone here who agrees with it thank you uh we you know both sides have a lunatic fringe
01:40:59in their movement ours and yours uh and frankly i find yours far more frightening because i've
01:41:04never heard somebody suggest that we were trying to assess that the fbi was trying to assassinate
01:41:09a former president i do appreciate mr mcclintock you condemning i would welcome anyone else who
01:41:14would condemn that and and we'll make this clearer when i would also however condemn the
01:41:21instructions and reclaiming my time reclaiming my time such an operation or my time director
01:41:27reclaiming my time director the former president stated last week at an nra
01:41:37convention that every single biden attack on gun owners and manufacturers will be terminated on my
01:41:42first week in office perhaps my first day i have a seven-year-old a five-year-old and a two-year-old
01:41:49what does this mean for parents in america as it relates to whether our kids are going to be
01:41:56sheltering in place and hiding under their desks for the rest of their time at school if this was
01:42:03to happen congressman i i can't and won't get involved in electoral politics what i said in
01:42:10my opening statement though i think hopefully people from all sides of questions can agree on
01:42:16which is we see progress being made we see violent crime going down we have a strategy that appears to
01:42:24be working my hope is that we can all come together and maybe there's policy disagreements
01:42:30on different things we can all come together though on the fact that we are driving down
01:42:34violent crime all over this country and double down on the strategies that are working that's
01:42:39my hope the things that are working let's stick with because the numbers show that real lives are
01:42:46being saved thank you i yield back gentleman yields back the uh gentleman from wisconsin
01:42:51is recognized thank you mr chairman is violent crime going down excuse me is violent crime going
01:42:58down according to the data i've seen violent crime is going down yes uh that's not what director
01:43:03ray told us a number of months ago when he was here before us uh what i've seen in recent numbers
01:43:09violent crime is going down there's a uh in in the 175 cities covered by uh the the major uh city
01:43:16chiefs there is double digit reductions in violent crime i was in baltimore uh at the turn of the
01:43:21year a 19 reduction in homicides la down 13 so when we had when we had a hearing when we had a
01:43:27hearing up in new york city just uh was that about a year ago um we heard from city councilors and
01:43:34others that they said uh that the police are not charging crime now because a district attorney
01:43:41would not prosecute that crime here let me give you an example from city in our state here's a
01:43:46statement from the district attorney in milwaukee county this is a number of years ago but he still
01:43:51continues to be the district attorney is there going to be an individual i divert or i put into
01:43:56a treatment program who's going to go out and kill somebody you bet this is the same guy that um let
01:44:03off uh the waukesha christmas killer who drove a vehicle through killing six people just a couple
01:44:09years ago um in a christmas parade up in wisconsin um are you sure violent crime's going down
01:44:18i believe the numbers bear out that violent crime is going down i think last year saw the most
01:44:22precipitous drop in violence in minneapolis here in your testimony whether it's indicting 45
01:44:28minneapolis gang members involved in murder and drug trafficking we just had a they have a district
01:44:35attorney in minneapolis also that does not prosecute crime she'll go after cops as she's doing
01:44:41right now with a cop who was doing his job and she's going after him now are you sure those
01:44:48indicted 45 minneapolis gang members are actually going to be charged with a crime
01:44:54i was there to announce the indictment myself along with the u.s attorney along with the chief
01:44:59of police along with the sheriff they're already indicted and i hope they go to jail for a long
01:45:04time and i think you said that um there's more activity with the cartels um you said you commented
01:45:09about this sinaloa cartel is there more activity going on down by the southern border as what we
01:45:15see is the flow of firearms our job is right to stop firearms trafficking which goes from the
01:45:21united states to mexico and and we have seen an increase in our number of seizures now that
01:45:28increase could be due to the fact that we're spending a lot of time and resources trying to
01:45:31stop that but yes we see a continuing problem yeah director ray would echo that a number of
01:45:37months ago or i should say you're echoing what he said he said we are seeing a significant increase
01:45:42going on um related to the southern border so you would basically agree with his comment his
01:45:49general comment in regards to that yeah with southbound traffic it is a continuing threat
01:45:55you think the open border contributes to this uh so i am not in charge of the agency that controls
01:46:02the border but with respect to southbound traffic that's things going so have you shared that with
01:46:07the attorney general well i think everybody under under go ahead i'm sorry have you shared it
01:46:14uh with the department of homeland security uh we work together on all of these task forces with the
01:46:19department of homeland security these southbound task forces they have agents and officers sitting
01:46:24with us doing that interdiction for southbound firearms trafficking so they know this problem
01:46:29is getting worse well they're they're part of the the fact of why the seizures are up that
01:46:35we're interdicting more weapons than ever double digit increases last year in terms of southbound
01:46:40seizures so mr chairman besides human trafficking um besides the terrorists that are coming across
01:46:49the border um we see another example here where the open southern border is making it potentially
01:46:59more deadly for americans we see these guns that are continuing to flow both ways across the border
01:47:08and plus you have a border patrol that can no longer do their job as babysitters it's
01:47:13it is very rare i'm sorry i'm gonna close up here sure if you have a um what would be your
01:47:20recommendation if somebody lied on their four four seven three form they dumped their um pistol in a
01:47:27garbage can and was in a school zone what would be your recommendation for charging that person
01:47:32i think that that echoes the fact of a publicly reported case i'm not going to comment on a on a
01:47:37pending matter and i think that question is aimed at that so so it's a an example of somebody that
01:47:43did something like that and i'm sure it's happened before what would you recommend they be charged
01:47:47with if a if a person out there intentionally lies uh on a 44 73 form yep they can be charged with
01:47:56with the crime of lying on a 44 73 form dumped a pistol in a garbage can so those are the facts of
01:48:04the case again i'm not going to comment on specific facts if somebody lies on a 44 73 i mean that was
01:48:10part of the charges in the case that we discussed earlier uh that that was the subject of so much
01:48:17discussion that's public but not commenting on the specifics uh that's a crime mr chairman i'm
01:48:23gonna close real quickly the dual system of justice in america hunter biden versus brian
01:48:29malinowski i yield back gentleman yields back gentleman from colorado is recognized mr chair
01:48:34i'm sorry gentlelady from vermont has unanimous consent yes i ask unanimous consent to enter into
01:48:39the record milwaukee sees decline in homicides in 2023 on this is uh wpr all right without objection
01:48:46gentleman from colorado recognized for five minutes i thank the chairman i also want to
01:48:50thank the gentlewoman from vermont for providing this committee and obviously
01:48:57the those who are watching it with some sense of real semblance of the actual facts on the ground
01:49:03with respect to the comments made by my colleague from wisconsin you know director i first want to
01:49:08say thank you for your service to our country you've spent your career in law enforcement
01:49:14obviously a former federal prosecutor i'm grateful for the work that you and your agency does each
01:49:19and every day to keep communities across my district in colorado and rocky mountain west
01:49:24the entire country safe you have more patience than i i think it is awfully rich and i'm not
01:49:31asking you to opine on this or to respond but it's awfully rich for some of my colleagues on the
01:49:35other side of the aisle to lecture you who've spent your career in law enforcement leading one
01:49:41of the premier domestic law enforcement agencies now to lecture you about crime and gun trafficking
01:49:48when they have worked vociferously over the last 17 months to defund the very agency that you lead
01:49:54that is charged with addressing gun trafficking with its charged with keeping us safe i think
01:50:01it is shameful how much did president biden's fiscal year 24 budget request
01:50:10identify for the atf what was the what was the total i believe that the number that's that's
01:50:16that i'm very familiar with is the amount of the cut which was 47.5 million dollars
01:50:22which was that was the real sets uh t salary and expenses cut uh which which is causing us not to
01:50:29hire agents was causing us not to be able to be out there with our state and local partners arresting
01:50:33carjackers and violent criminals um the the request is three or four steps it was it was
01:50:40a significant increase for atf funding and not only was the increase not granted but atf's budget
01:50:46was was cut and that's having these kinds of effects on our ability to fight violent crime
01:50:51that i'm talking about well you beat me to it and thank you mr director because i think you've you
01:50:55provided the requisite clarity 47 million dollar cut three billion dollars less than what the
01:51:03president ultimately requested 1.9 billion dollars was the uh the president's request in terms of
01:51:08funding for the atf ultimately is about 1.6 billion dollars which meant in real dollars
01:51:14a 47 million dollar cut right went from 1.675 to about 1.625 correct and and by the way that
01:51:22happened halfway through the year because congress hadn't passed the budget and so we had to
01:51:27effectuate the entire 47 million dollar cut uh in six months which was also you know congress delays
01:51:35in passing these measures i understand they're difficult but there's for people running
01:51:40organizations and many of you have run businesses that is very very difficult to effectuate a whole
01:51:46cut uh after somebody is giving you the higher budget for half the year and since you make it
01:51:51all up in a half year well i'd like to hear any of my colleagues defend the propriety of pursuing
01:51:59that kind of cut to one of our nation's lead law enforcement agencies it is the cognitive
01:52:07dissonance is astounding to me i mean i i don't i've listened for years to my colleagues on the
01:52:12other side claim that folks in in our party don't support law enforcement which of course couldn't
01:52:20be further from the truth and yet simultaneously they now pursue a significant cut to the operations
01:52:30of the atf i'm grateful and by the way director i mean this is outside of your
01:52:35baliwick so to speak but they've they just released a budget a month ago that proposes
01:52:41severe cuts to local law enforcement as well rural sheriffs rural police departments in my district
01:52:48cops grant program which i'm sure you're familiar with given your time as a prosecutor years ago
01:52:54program that is integral to enabling local law enforcement to do their jobs to hire more officers
01:53:00i think it's shameful i'm grateful for what as i said you are doing um i i wish i had more time to
01:53:06be able to spend or perhaps engage in a colloquy here around some of the regulations that the atf
01:53:13has promulgated which i support to address some of the mass violence mass shootings that we have
01:53:21tragically had in communities across the country including in my community in boulder colorado
01:53:27but i would just say that the sum of my remarks is that i'm grateful for the work that you do i'm
01:53:32grateful for the work that the law enforcement officers in your agency do each and every day
01:53:37and you certainly have our our support and i would hope that it'd be on a bipartisan basis
01:53:44hope springs eternal we'll keep working towards that i yield back tell me it was back what's
01:53:48your budget this year uh the budget uh i believe is 1.625 billion dollars was the was the most
01:53:57recent budget that was that was passed gentleman from kentucky's recognized i thank the chairman
01:54:04you know i'm troubled here by your new rule defining what a firearms dealer is or engaged
01:54:09in the business of selling firearms isn't the purpose of it or won't the result be that more
01:54:15people will be defined as being engaged in the in the uh business of selling firearms
01:54:22the purpose of the rule is to effectuate congress's definition congress expanded the definition two
01:54:28years ago in the bipartisan safer communities act so the and so and what's the result going to be
01:54:34the result is going to be i hope increased compliance with congress's statute it's the
01:54:40result is going to be subjecting more american citizens to the treatment that mr malinowski
01:54:46unfortunately received from our federal government which is you want to get more warrants to serve
01:54:51these no-knock raids on people who have not been convicted of anything yet may be convicted on
01:54:57their doorstep to death i want to address something in your rule here i did find one
01:55:05thing that i think is sort of helpful and i hope the other side of the aisle will read this i want
01:55:09to give you time to look at this the department now the department that would be the atf correct
01:55:15in your rule i don't know what you're is this from the yeah this is from the department refers
01:55:20to the department of justice okay the department also notes that the term gun show loophole is a
01:55:25misnomer in that there is no statutory exemption under the gun control act for unlicensed persons
01:55:31to engage in the business of dealing in firearms at a gun show or at any other venue i hope the
01:55:37other side of the aisle this is the one useful thing that i found in 16 page rule and for you
01:55:43know hundreds of pages of explanation is to show people that there is no gun show loophole do you
01:55:50agree with the department and with your own rule here i agree that congress never said and has
01:55:57never said and hasn't said now didn't say before this that somebody who is engaged in the business
01:56:02those are the words there can do that without a license depending on where they sit but people
01:56:07have encouraged the perception and we have seen an increased level of non-compliance among people
01:56:15who are either uh intentionally or otherwise breaking congress's statute the only people
01:56:22encouraging this perception is the left side of the aisle in the media there is no gun show loophole
01:56:28and i'm glad you finally admitted that now i want to get to something else i've said that publicly
01:56:33and there never was okay thank you i want to get to something else in your opening statement
01:56:38uh and maybe you want to read it back if it's written down can you tell me the the fact
01:56:43that you were expressing or claimed that there are more that firearms are leasing leading cause
01:56:48of death for children what were your specific words in your testimony i'd have to look at my
01:56:53testimony can you look at it as children and and youth and i and it's in my longer statement that's
01:56:58in the record obviously i'm summarizing a statement as the chair asked me to do so uh it's
01:57:03in my longer statement which has been entered into the record i don't have it in front of me
01:57:07can you define a child and youth there's child and youth it there's there's a statistical study
01:57:13uh that that then is the source of that and we can get that to you i don't know the specific
01:57:17site sitting here we'll be glad to get that to you yeah the statistical study according to you
01:57:21know news reports and uh snopes as mr nails referred to uh excludes infants under the age
01:57:31of one and includes 18 and 19 year olds is that true i don't know i mean honestly you don't know
01:57:38your own statistic no i don't know i honestly why would you be your testimony of children
01:57:44unacceptable any killing of any person is unacceptable except in self-defense are you
01:57:49including if a 17 or 18 or 19 year old gang member came to a person's door and tried to attack them
01:57:58that that would self-defense are you including that in your statistic congressman uh firearms
01:58:05violence is a huge yeah yeah no i'm gonna i'm not gonna let you make your public service statement
01:58:11i want you to defend your sworn testimony are you claiming that 18 and 19 year olds are children in
01:58:19your statistic and again you have my statement yeah i have it i'm asking you to explain it here's
01:58:24my other question how many 18 year olds who've committed a gun crime have have you suggest to
01:58:29be prosecuted as a minor uh we are a law enforcement agency we're not the prosecutors
01:58:36okay and in the federal system how many how many have served how many have federal system gone after
01:58:41okay federals respectfully year olds we investigate we investigate crimes shoulder to shoulder with
01:58:47local law enforcement are 18 year old children or are they adults each state has its own has its
01:58:54own uh under the gun laws as to when juveniles are prosecuted federal gun laws uh as you may know
01:59:03federal laws with respect to the prosecution of juveniles are exceedingly difficult and pro and
01:59:08you you are correct that prosecution of juveniles if you're implying this as adults is rare in the
01:59:13federal system here's the reality and juvenile crime reclaiming my time is an increasing problem
01:59:21reclaiming my time look you're including in your statistic whether you know it or not 18 and 19
01:59:26year olds but you would never claim that those are minors in the context of gun prosecutions
01:59:31and the only way you can get the number of deaths attributable to firearms above other causes is by
01:59:38excluding under the age of one and including 18 and 19 year olds particularly gang members
01:59:45and including self-defense so with that i yield back someone yields back the gentlelady from
01:59:51pennsylvania recognized all right thank you mr chairman director dudelbach thank you for being
01:59:57here thank you and i believe about 5 000 of your members uh full-time employees at atf
02:00:05just to put that number into some perspective uh there are more than 6 500 sworn police officers
02:00:12serving just the city of philadelphia my home city would it be fair to call atf a relatively small
02:00:19but mighty law enforcement agency director the people those 5 000 plus people work at atf are
02:00:25incredible people they are doing they are they are doing a mammoth job with very few resources
02:00:32it's a dangerous job every single day it's a dangerous job for them out there because of the
02:00:37types of cases that we often see and they're they're doing a great job at it i agree with
02:00:44you as you note in your testimony atf is in fact the only federal law enforcement agency with the
02:00:50sole focus of working with police and partners in state and local law enforcement to protect
02:00:55americans from violent crime correct we are the federal agency with the sole focus on violent
02:01:01crime i want to say to those of you in the room or who are watching on tv if you're experiencing
02:01:07whiplash i'm sure it is not lost on anyone in this room anyone who cares about the issues around
02:01:14police and law enforcement we are just one week from removed from national police week i sat over
02:01:22on the regal senate side as we honored the fallen police officers it's whiplash in this hearing
02:01:30one week we honor fallen police officers the next we want to defund law enforcement like you
02:01:37from rooting out cartels fueling the fentanyl crisis to curbing gun violence
02:01:42the number one killer of american children gun violence that's what people on the other
02:01:47side of the aisle ought to be outraged about the number one killer of our children in this country
02:01:54gun violence and progress has been made even though uh our republican colleagues attempt to
02:02:02discredit and disfund defund you i want to turn to the bipartisan safer communities act i'm so
02:02:08proud that we were finally able to do something some small things around gun violence uh we are
02:02:15weeks away from the second anniversary of this this great act june 25th i was heartened to see
02:02:21that last month atf finalized a rule implementing the landmark legislation part of the rule overlaps
02:02:27with my bill the fire sale loophole closing act which would prevent ffl's who have had their
02:02:34licenses revoked or denied from selling old business inventory guns without background checks
02:02:40some republican lawmakers have raised concern that the final rule goes too far could you tell us why
02:02:47is this rule necessary why do we need to know what happens to those inventoried guns
02:02:54um so again of course as you know the rule is under litigation so i'm limited to the public
02:03:00record and what i can say the text of the rule speaks for itself and should be looked at and
02:03:05also the explanation uh the hundreds of pages of explanation and the response to comments
02:03:11uh with respect to that one part of the law that congress passed and as part of the gun control act
02:03:20if a dealer who is a licensed firearms dealer loses their license right the notion that that
02:03:29somehow for the person who loses their license can then not follow the gun control act right
02:03:34is inconsistent with the structure of the gun control act in many cases so so that's so the
02:03:39idea is that everybody's playing by the same set of rules there are so many dealers and collectors
02:03:46who are following the law out there and part of the bipartisan safer communities act and part of
02:03:53our enforcement is to make sure that those who obey the law aren't being treated at a competitive
02:03:58disadvantage to people who are out there ignoring the law right it's only fair there are so many
02:04:04people uh who are obeying the gun control act who are obeying the bipartisan safer communities
02:04:10act and those who are out there ignoring it just from a plain old business perspective we have to
02:04:16have a fair marketplace where everybody obeys congress's statutes i couldn't agree more it's
02:04:22also common sense that if you've lost your license you can't just get rid of your inventory without
02:04:29following the law including background checks exactly what challenges have you had has atf had
02:04:36faced in implementing the bipartisan safer communities act litigation is clearly part of
02:04:40it but what else i think when congress uh gave us our new tools which we're very grateful for
02:04:46congress didn't appropriate extra monies for us to enforce those particular new tools
02:04:52we did get a million dollars a year to work with the national shooting sports foundation
02:04:58on the don't lie for the other guy campaign which is an important collaborative effort we have with
02:05:02the industry uh but the 500 cases defendants that we charged under the new statutes with our
02:05:09prosecutors and our partners right that's taking away from other priorities that we also still want
02:05:15to service so again when we at atf are choosing what to do congresswoman we're choosing between
02:05:21very important things we're choosing between body-worn cameras and cartels we're choosing
02:05:27between gangs and and and and carjackings those are very important things that we are trying to
02:05:33balance i couldn't agree more i honor all of your agents uh i have a unanimous request consent
02:05:41request mr chairman okay uh number one uh you spoke about fallen atf officers uh and what i
02:05:49would like to enter into the record is a listing multiple page listing of fallen atf officers
02:05:55bureau of alcohol tobacco firearms and explosive fallen agents objection over the years i also have
02:06:02a unanimous consent uh request to enter this article from march of this year abc news us
02:06:11stats show violent crime dramatically falling objection and i'd like to also enter into the
02:06:18record an article around a child in philadelphia just last month three-year-old child uh sadly
02:06:25picked up a firearm and died from a shot objection thank you gentlelady yields back
02:06:32gentleman from texas recognized thank the chairman thank the director because the director knows
02:06:39i was a prosecutor under project safe neighborhoods uh in the u.s attorney's office
02:06:45worked closely with atf uh in the dallas fort worth metro area um i share uh your sentiment
02:06:53about the patriotic americans serving atf trying to stop violent criminals from moving uh drugs
02:07:02and using firearms uh against the law um in ways that are undermining the safety and security of
02:07:09the american people and and i want to thank uh those those men and women for uh what they do
02:07:15every day in that service um but would the director um agree that there have been times
02:07:22where atf have not gotten it right uh i realize that with respect to the uh case we've already
02:07:29discussed uh with respect to mr malinowski that you're saying that's an investigation but you
02:07:34know what about something like fast and furious so of course like any agency there are times where we
02:07:39uh don't get things right and can improve so a couple of questions for you you know along these
02:07:44lines i think it's really important for the american people to understand do do you as the
02:07:48director of atf do you believe that the american people have a constitutional right an individual
02:07:56right to keep and bear arms that the supreme court has made it clear and i yes the the american the
02:08:04second amendment has been interpreted numerous times by the supreme court just as as you there's
02:08:09more to it but yes what you have said yes okay and so but the direct you believe that you interpret
02:08:13the constitution that way uh i interpret all the laws the way that the supreme court says
02:08:19they're to be interpreted and when the supreme court speaks on something would you have said
02:08:22that about plussy uh i look congressman i work for a law enforcement agency i'm not a judge
02:08:31but i accept the rulings of the court including that one i'm not dodging your question you as
02:08:35the director of atf believe there is an individual constitutional right to bear arms yes there is one
02:08:40the supreme court has said it i was along it's along those lines do you as the director of atf
02:08:45believe that the uh federal government should maintain um a registry or otherwise track catalog
02:08:56keep records of the transactions of firearms uh conducted by the american people such that you
02:09:02would know what firearms i possess congress has explicitly forbidden atf from keeping a registry
02:09:12and we do not again we obey the law we don't make the law we obey it do you as the director
02:09:18believe that the federal government should track ownership of firearms among the american people
02:09:25congressman we follow the law as you put it as you pass it you have said we cannot have a registry
02:09:32we follow that provision and we'll continue to as long as it's a lot of atf do you have a position
02:09:36on that should we track my ownership of firearms as director of atf my position is if it's in the
02:09:42law we follow it um if i want to sell a gun that i currently own to a friend in texas do i need a
02:09:51license so the getting into the specifics of the rule which is in litigation so first of all this
02:09:59ought to be a really simple question i understand well it so so you look at the totality of the
02:10:05circumstances if we're talking about an isolated sale uh from somebody who is not engaged in the
02:10:11business of dealing firearms you don't need a license right so so if i i a citizen this this
02:10:16country i live in texas i have a weapon and i want to sell it to a fellow texan
02:10:21on an isolated basis do i need a license again if you are not engaged in the business of selling
02:10:28firearms those are congress's words if i if i post a sale for a firearm last year okay and i do that
02:10:35on you know some relevant website like texasguntrader.com and i i sell that weapon i sell it
02:10:41for five hundred dollars and then i inherit a gun from my dad or from my uncle and i inherited last
02:10:47month and it's like six months later and i sell it and i sell it for another profit i sell it for
02:10:52five hundred dollars and then uh less than you know a year later i have another weapon that i
02:10:58inherit or i've gotten i decide i don't need any more and i sell it is that engaging in the business
02:11:03is that engaging in activity that means i need a license i think pursuant to the clear language of
02:11:09congress in doing this and to the things we've said in the rule we've specifically mentioned
02:11:13inheritance as one of the things that is not indicative of engaging in the business uh what
02:11:19if i have just 12 or 20 weapons and i sell three over the course of a year each i'm sorry i'm sorry
02:11:25i didn't mean to interrupt i'm just saying if i have i have about 50 let's assume i had 15 or 20
02:11:29weapons and i wanted to sell three over the course of a year i think what we're what what i'd like to
02:11:34make money on my reaction to what you're saying is is that you look at the it's very clear that
02:11:38you look at the totality of the circumstances we can go through an endless series of hypotheticals
02:11:43hypotheticals aren't the way we address cases and i realize them over my time do you understand why
02:11:48the average citizen sitting out there saying i've got 400 pages of rule making might not understand
02:11:53what they are allowed to do under the law when the director of the atf can't look at a member
02:11:56of congress and tell me yes or no emphatically whether or not if i sell a weapon or two weapons
02:12:01or three weapons or five whether or not i need a license respecting that's the way the law ought
02:12:05to be the rules respectfully i believe that the rule that we have promulgated provides way more
02:12:12information and clarity than 400 pages just than just the one or two sentences that congress
02:12:17provide and we were seeing and you can't even answer how can the average american know it
02:12:25we are in the business of of knowing and we would look at the whole case and we would determine
02:12:30based on the i'm sorry mr gentlelady from north carolina is recognized for five minutes
02:12:34thank you mr chairman and thank you director dettelbach for being here
02:12:38the second time in over a year and for your commitment to keeping our community safe
02:12:46as requested by the department of justice the atf recently reported that over a five-year period
02:12:53from 2017 to 2021 68 000 illegally trafficked firearms were distributed across the united
02:13:04states by unlicensed dealers the iron pipeline which we've discussed earlier specifically refers
02:13:12to guns smuggled up the i-95 corridor from the southern states to the mid-atlantic and new
02:13:19england it runs directly through my home state of north carolina which is one of the top destinations
02:13:27for gun traffickers now we wouldn't know this information which directly impacts public safety
02:13:34in my state without the atf's dedicated work to make data available to the public and to all of
02:13:43our law enforcement agencies this data is a critical tool for local law enforcement to address
02:13:51gun trafficking i also want to highlight the implementation of the bipartisan safer
02:13:57communities act which as we've heard is one of the most significant steps congress has taken
02:14:04to reduce gun violence in decades giving law enforcement and prosecutors new means to hold
02:14:11gun traffickers accountable i also want to note that both of north carolina's republican
02:14:19senators voted for the bipartisan safer communities act in the last congress
02:14:25building off this legislation is imperative and it will take continued bipartisan consensus
02:14:32to do so we've talked a little bit about the gun trafficking provisions in the safer communities
02:14:39act but i want to broaden that a little bit and ask you how gun trafficking intersects with drug
02:14:48trafficking particularly fentanyl trafficking and what atf is doing to reduce not just gun
02:14:55trafficking and gun violence but the menace of fentanyl and other dangerous drugs
02:15:03i've been involved with prosecution since 1991 and one thing that has stayed the same
02:15:10and unfortunately i'm sure will stay the same is that guns and drugs illicit guns and drugs go
02:15:15together gangs cartels individual dealers they are armed often as a means of enforcing their
02:15:25business practices their unlawful criminal conduct and punishing individuals who challenge them
02:15:31intimidating witnesses you name it so these things go together with respect to fentanyl
02:15:37that is also it was true with crack it's true with powder cocaine true with heroin
02:15:42it's true with opioids it's true with fentanyl and we worked alone and together with our partners
02:15:49on cases that involve narcotics trafficking all the time for that reason armed drug trafficking
02:15:54organizations are part of what atf does just earlier this month atf made a case that resulted
02:16:03in members of the sinaloa cartel going to to jail for literally decades i think one for life
02:16:09uh we are routinely seeing fentanyl dealers and organizations that are armed to the teeth
02:16:17and that are threatening people's lives and so do you believe that the more we support
02:16:25efforts to stop gun trafficking that will also help in our efforts to stop drug trafficking i know it
02:16:33i'm going to ask you a fun question since i know it's been kind of a rough day
02:16:38if it was christmas and you could be fully funded in the ways that you've requested
02:16:44what would be your top three priorities and how would that make our community safer
02:16:52since it's christmas can i get an extra one or two absolutely you have 36 seconds we're the
02:16:59violent crime agency so i think what i would start with is uh we know a strategy that's
02:17:06working the crime gun intelligence strategy working with state and local law enforcement
02:17:09is working we have to scale it right so we have 60 crime gun intelligence centers or so
02:17:15we put out i think an extra 10 in the last year uh i would put our crime gun intelligence centers
02:17:20i would try to stand them up in numerous other places uh second would be to support them we need
02:17:25better intel crime gun intelligence is driven by a couple things the national integrated ballistic
02:17:30information network or nyban and crime gun tracing i i would i would start i would continue and ramp
02:17:38up our campaign uh to get sheriffs to get uh chiefs to get uh law enforcement officers all
02:17:44around the country to fully participate in the nyban and tracing free tools that we provide them
02:17:51um and i think um gosh it's so hard on the third i would say um
02:17:59i think you know i would double and triple down on our rico vicar gang strategy it's a very
02:18:05effective legal tool that puts into effect the crime gun intelligence minneapolis case is a great
02:18:11example so they have 15 20 shootings all around town they look totally unconnected through the
02:18:17crime gun intelligence tools we provide we're able to connect them together and show that it's
02:18:21the highs that's the name of the gang one group that's responsible for all of this and so then
02:18:27we put together a rico case uh which has extra teeth in order to make sure we're taking down
02:18:32the whole organization so i think that would be my third thank you for your service and i yield back
02:18:37i think it's interesting too that the director didn't mention body cameras even though he told
02:18:42us that they weren't wearing those because of budget cuts but that didn't make his christmas
02:18:46list the time is now the gentlemen's from i did ask for extra misha so thank you mr chairman in
02:18:52the malinowski killing uh are you did you say you're deferring to and waiting for this investigation
02:18:57from the arkansas state police the arkansas state police has referred the matter to the district
02:19:02attorney's office it's my understanding from public you've been deferring until that to do
02:19:06take any action yourself is that right uh we that would be our normal course of action if there's a
02:19:12pending criminal investigation in order to make sure that we preserve the integrity of that
02:19:16investigation we let it proceed yes that's a that's a criminal investigation only uh they'll
02:19:22decide the scope my understanding is they're investigating to see that's a criminal invest let's
02:19:26stay on my my question that's a criminal investigation it's an investigation to see
02:19:30whether arkansas law was violated as my it's called a criminal investigation right they're
02:19:34a criminal law enforcement agency uh don't filibuster me the straightforward not filibustering
02:19:40you know that state prosecutors have a variety of different my time the arkansas state police
02:19:45and their press release on april 24 22 said we do not have the authority to address methods and
02:19:50tactics used or whether agency protocols and policies were followed have you seen that i've
02:19:56seen the press release you've seen that correct so you're deferring action on questions of methods
02:20:03and tactics until you see what arkansas does with the criminal investigation uh that is the normal
02:20:09standard thing that we do because if you start interviewing witnesses if you start talking to
02:20:14people in the middle of a criminal investigation very quickly people start talking about the fact
02:20:19that the integrity of that investigation mr dettelbach very important to respect the ongoing
02:20:24investigation mr dettelbach and the brianna kept did you watch yesterday's hearing by any chance
02:20:28i did not have a chance to watch all of yesterday's hearing i watched you watch some of it
02:20:32i watched some of it well in the louisville uh situation with brianna taylor the metropolitan
02:20:38police department there fired its first officer within 90 days of the incident they were doing
02:20:43that as a matter of their management responsibility by the way the justice department of which your
02:20:48agency is a component has conducted a pattern in practice investigation and is pursuing enforcement
02:20:54action uh against the louisville police department what is your excuse for not taking managerial
02:21:00action about the appropriateness of the tactics used in the malinowski killing i think you would
02:21:05agree with me that police officers and agents are entitled to due process just like everybody else
02:21:11there's no doubt about that that doesn't answer my question well don't you have management
02:21:15responsibility with respect to the way the agency is conducting such matters uh when uh we can based
02:21:22upon the review and i don't think i don't expect it to be a lengthy period of time we would conduct
02:21:27uh use of force review as we do in every matter like this that occurs and we will we will do that
02:21:32in this case as we do in every matter what's soon enough they acted in louisville in three
02:21:36within three months what's soon enough uh respectfully uh we'll see that the investigation
02:21:43will end and then we will commence our our internal review as we always do concerning body cams you
02:21:50testify that the rollout within atf was incomplete is it your testimony that the rollout has not
02:21:56extended to atf personnel in arkansas and that's the reason they didn't have body cams
02:22:01the field division that covers arkansas has not yet been implemented that's correct all right and
02:22:05you said what did you say the cost was of your of your item there something in the tens of millions
02:22:09was it 40 million 45 million uh this isn't the downstream cost because there's huge data costs
02:22:14as you know with this but the initial implementation cost the request in the budget is 37.5 million
02:22:2037 million so i understand your budget is at 1.7 what your your budget is about 1.7 billion so if
02:22:26my calculator is right that's about 2.6 percent of your budget you couldn't find 2.6 percent of
02:22:31your budget to catch up with common practice among also resource constrained city police
02:22:37departments all over the country respectfully our budget is not 1.7 it's 1.625 whatever and the
02:22:43reason i know that is because that 45 million dollar cut has resulted in not being able to
02:22:48hire agents yeah but you're talking about something else i'm talking about body cams
02:22:51that are in common use among metropolitan police departments across this country and
02:22:56you're saying something involves two or three percent of your budget prevented you from getting
02:23:00it done i'm saying that we're we're in the process as we said from the beginning of implementing the
02:23:05policy in phases let me continue every we continue we can director let me ask you this question
02:23:12i understand there could be justifications for lots of things about putting tape on
02:23:16jamming signals things like that in the in this in a certain set of circumstances
02:23:20what can possibly justify deferring as that video showed deferring the execution of that
02:23:26search warrant until the person who justifies the use of such tactics if there's a question
02:23:32of a risk of violence was present in the home these are career law enforcement agents i didn't
02:23:39ask that and they make determinations i asked you what could possibly justify that in my experience
02:23:47when you when an agent decides when a cop decides to go through a door when a cop decides to execute
02:23:53an operation they are entitled if they're if they're correct the warrant allowed that warrant
02:24:00to be executed on the day it was executed we'll see what the investigation says but congressmen
02:24:06armchair quarterbacking police officers who are risking their lives without evidence yet is not
02:24:12the way to go here that's about 5 000 words and not one justification uttered not one possible
02:24:18justification my time has expired gentleman yields back uh the gentleman from maryland is recognized
02:24:26thank you mr chairman welcome director um good to see you again i just want to run through a
02:24:32few things um some would strike me as surprising uh some are just hypocritical and i'll ask you
02:24:40some questions at the end but i did want to deal with a couple of these at at the top the
02:24:45comparison to the brianna taylor case uh struck me as quite surprising um you know brianna taylor
02:24:51was a scenario where um no shots were fired at the officers i think one of the officers actually
02:24:58made a false statement um well brianna taylor certainly didn't fire any shots at any of the
02:25:04officers there was the officer who was fired um lied in the affidavit i think that was found
02:25:12pretty quickly uh but in any event um you know the no knock issue i think is a pretty significant one
02:25:19and i believe that what's going to happen later today is that there will be a bill offered the
02:25:25george floyd um criminal justice act that will help to address one of these issues so i hear a
02:25:32lot of concern from my republican colleagues about the no knock warrant being uh executed here
02:25:38i would note that it's pretty routine the way this this warrant was executed but um hopefully
02:25:43you all will be willing to um support that provision when it's offered today mr director
02:25:50did you want to comment on that i just wanted to say that i just wanted to repeat again that
02:25:54because this is an ongoing investigation i'm not commenting there are numerous different things
02:25:59that i believe that are out there that may not be shown to be the facts when the investigation
02:26:04happens so i would just hope that we could all agree to wait till the facts come out and assess
02:26:10those facts because i i hear things that may well not even be correct as a factual matter as things
02:26:16that members are talking about so that's one of my hopes here today is just to try and get the facts
02:26:22out well that's a fair point but i'll say this i know that um an officer was shot in the execute
02:26:28i don't have time i'm sorry in the execution of the malinowski warrant how is that officer doing
02:26:34thank you for asking uh my understanding is that he's recovering uh and uh i i can
02:26:43take a lot and i understand that but one thing i want to say is at one point during
02:26:48people are heated somebody said something about somebody got shot in the toe uh when a police
02:26:54officer or an agent is shot at it's a serious matter when a police officer or an agent is
02:27:01actually shot it's a serious matter and i know that nobody here would try to minimize an officer
02:27:07being shot as not being a serious matter i just want to make sure i understand people are heated
02:27:11and maybe i got a little heated just now but that's one thing that i just want to make sure
02:27:15that i know we all agree on that i appreciate that uh and also the funding issue which mr
02:27:21addressed um you know with respect to paying for body cameras i know we had it was a very
02:27:26expensive thing when we did it in prince george's county and it was one of the barriers to getting
02:27:31it done as quickly as we wanted but i hope that's another one of those where my republican colleagues
02:27:37since you've expressed such strong desire and concern about body cameras not being present here
02:27:43i hope you'll be willing to step up now and provide the additional funding in the atf budget
02:27:49so they can move forward that with that expeditiously i also wanted to say this too we
02:27:54had another debate a few minutes ago about uh whether firearms are the leading cause of death
02:27:59for for for children and the issue i guess was you count infants or 18 or 19 year olds or whatever i
02:28:06just want to reiterate because that's not the first time we've done that one uh and my view
02:28:11then and now is that i think it's a ridiculous point to focus on from the standpoint of
02:28:20you whether it's first or second is a leading cause of death isn't that enough i mean why should
02:28:26we be okay with it just let's say it's the second leading cause of death if you include infants or
02:28:31something why would that be okay why wouldn't we be concerned and want to try and find ways to bring
02:28:36those numbers down so you know i appreciate the work that you're doing on that front uh and and
02:28:42support the effort but you know we have to find ways to protect our kids from these kinds of uh
02:28:46gun violence incidents and with respect to um the search warrant uh affidavit i wanted to offer
02:28:56that in the record i ask unanimous consent that that be offered objection and also the uh the
02:29:01search warrant return i want to make sure that's an objection too so it's clear what was in addition
02:29:06to an officer being shot which uh did not happen in the brianna taylor case uh you know the weapons
02:29:12that were were recovered but also the other types of conduct that supported the probable cause
02:29:19finding by the judge in that case and supported the entry and then the last point i wanted to make
02:29:24too you know the execution of a search warrant while the people are in the house in the morning
02:29:31my experience was that was kind of standard operating procedure it's it's actually unusual
02:29:37to do it uh any other way uh and the reason for that is it gives it's safer for the officers to
02:29:43try and catch him by surprise and also leads to a better opportunities to seize weapons so
02:29:49in this case there were many many many and because they thought there were 150 weapons in the house
02:29:54certainly security and protection for the officers would be a prime consideration
02:29:58with that i yield back gentleman yields back the gentlelady from india is recognized thank you uh
02:30:04director dittlbach i wanted to uh follow up on the something that representative massey
02:30:10was asking you about january 6 pipe bomb investigations it's over three years
02:30:15since it happened what are you still investigating we are uh not the lead investigative agency it's
02:30:21the fbi my understanding is from public really reported there's been over a thousand uh interviews
02:30:26conducted uh my my they're investigating the the incident but it seems like it's like
02:30:32you have a road map and fbi not to answer questions everyone can hear and every question
02:30:38where's everything under investigation it's very clever you guys brilliant not to answer congress
02:30:43because everything under investigation and then when investigation and statute of limitation and
02:30:48over no one gets punished and you continue with this and this has happened all the time it seems
02:30:53like your agency should do better than that investigate something over three years it seems
02:30:58like you should get to some conclusion but my question is related to these changes under your
02:31:03rule and definition you know what is engaging business rule you know uh do you think uh
02:31:08criminals that want to do something criminal are going to read your 500 pages of definitions
02:31:13are they going to read your 500 500 pages of definition explanations i i think that i don't
02:31:21know who will read it but i think criminals will be doing that i i think that it will also
02:31:27encourage as i said at the beginning hopefully increase compliance with the law uh among people
02:31:33who perhaps understand that criminals are not going to be reading this okay but what is it
02:31:39going to do to law abiding citizen like brian milanovsky that potentially was just doing you
02:31:45know selling these guns and i don't know the whole circumstances but he's dead because he was not
02:31:50probably realizing what you were doing in changes of this rule so my question is for you is going to
02:31:56be do you understand how dangerous your definitions are become respectfully uh our definitions are
02:32:04based upon the law that congress passed and it is based upon our observation and experience
02:32:10in the field interpretation so let's just go to your definitions as a normal american i understand
02:32:15your definition implementation let me it's implementing congress's law okay how are you
02:32:20going to implement i want to understand i am a gun owner and i'm going to decide occasionally
02:32:26occasionally i can do maybe 100 times maybe five times you know what i am not engaged predominantly
02:32:31profit you know that i don't even have time to do a profit so at which point as as a regular
02:32:36american citizen so i understand that you are not going to show up cut cut off my electricity
02:32:41show up to my house and try to storm the house with bunch of people that you don't even realize
02:32:48what's going on so i can be in situation like a lot of other americans that not even realize that
02:32:54now you're redefining who is the dealer is so i want to get understanding summarize me understanding
02:33:00how i can explain to my constituent what it means now and how i am predominantly earn a profit in
02:33:07this what is really definition of that the statute that congress passed says that if you're engaged
02:33:14in the business of dealing firearms quote predominantly for profit right that requires a
02:33:20license there are some exceptions then that congress has passed and and respectfully people
02:33:26may not read the statutes either they should though if they're if they're selling firearms
02:33:30these aren't possessors these are people who are reselling firearms repetitively for profit
02:33:35and i don't think it's it's too much to ask for somebody who is selling firearms repetitively for
02:33:41profit what is repetitive what is occasional repetitively if i decide you know i have lots
02:33:46of guns and i decided to you know i want to replace with something else i have 50 guns i'm
02:33:51going to sell this year you just decide that i'm for i don't know maybe there will be for profit
02:33:54definitely no one you know what's going to sell it at a loss right and with your rules probably
02:34:00prices i keep increasing so like i i'm going to become a dealer now i have to be registering that
02:34:05again i've tried to explain and i'm trying to explain so what do you do what what is really
02:34:10going to be now your new definition because it's so broad it's not a new definition it
02:34:15implements congress's definition congress changed yes definition you put 500 pages of
02:34:21explanation so can you summarize the normally plain language an american can understand i believe
02:34:27that our positions are they're not secret they're in court they're filed reading 500 pages that are
02:34:32confusing the rule seeks by providing practical conduct based things that normal people could
02:34:40for instance for instance you one of the things that can result in people depending on all the
02:34:46circumstances is you take credit cards for payment that could be one of the signs that
02:34:51somebody's in business you read one of the things that might be on the other side
02:34:59one of the things that might be on the other side is if you're occasionally dealing or gifting to
02:35:04family members right we try to say things on both sides my time has expired but i'll still tell you
02:35:09you put american lives in danger and your atf live agent in danger by doing this because you're doing
02:35:15gun control in this very clever way to make everyone in dealer have a zero tolerance and
02:35:21exercise gun control and second amendment rights but you put your people in danger and american
02:35:26people i yield back and lady yields back the gentleman from george is recognized for unanimous
02:35:31consent thank you mr chairman to follow up on the discussions that we've had on the leading
02:35:36causes of death for children that have been spoken about by uh our colleague from pennsylvania and
02:35:43also mr ivy i'd like to uh ask a unanimous unanimous consent to enter into the record
02:35:48an article from april 2022 entitled firearms were the leading cause of death in children in 2020
02:35:55researchers say also second one will be uh unanimous consent to enter into the record
02:36:00an article from october titled firearms now number one cause of death for u.s children
02:36:06while drug poisoning enter enters top five the objection thank you lady from vermont
02:36:12recognized for five minutes thank you miss chair thank you director for being here i know it's been
02:36:16a it's been a long day um thank you for your time so as i sit here um i'm really struck by
02:36:24what i feel we should be talking about here is that we have a fairly simple mandate from the
02:36:30american people which is to do all we can to stop gun violence as my colleagues have said we have
02:36:37this horrible situation in this country parents teachers having to see children being killed
02:36:47every day but by gun violence country is awash in illegal firearms we've heard that
02:36:53we have accidental shootings by and of children we have increasing suicide rates and of course
02:37:00mass shootings continue across our nation and public poll after public poll tells us the same
02:37:07thing people want us in congress to do something to take action more than half of americans
02:37:15consistently support stricter gun laws listening to some of my colleagues you'd think that we were
02:37:22on a different planet the majority is not even approaching or discussing new public protections
02:37:29or stricter gun laws and the atf doesn't have the resources to inspect firearm sealers as directed
02:37:36by congress right now over 2 000 firearm sealers have not undergone any inspection in over 10
02:37:43years there are laws already on the books to help us stem the tide of this violence but they
02:37:50aren't being enforced because oftentimes republicans won't give them the money to do so
02:37:58now director i appreciate very much that you're here today i'd like to talk a little bit more
02:38:04specifically about the work that atf does you got a big job how does your agency carry out its
02:38:13mission with just over 5 000 employees it's very difficult it's shockingly low given it's but the
02:38:20way charge yeah look the way we do it is we have an incredible workforce i mean the people that
02:38:26the career people i'm the only political appointee at atf not a single schedule c person just me
02:38:35the people who are the career people get the credit here these are agents these are investigators
02:38:41lab technicians uh analysts staff they do incredible dangerous work every day uh and the
02:38:49the only way to get make any progress on this is partnership with our state and local partners
02:38:56which were better than anybody else with respect to others at and number two uh being smart about
02:39:04how we use the intelligence that we provide to identify the worst of the worst to make sure that
02:39:08we are actually taking steps to do two things number one identify the worst of the worst the
02:39:14trigger pullers and the shooters and get them out of the community put them where they belong
02:39:17incarcerated bluntly and also at the same time to do something to enforce the existing laws to cut
02:39:24off the supply of guns to those same people it is far too easy for killers felons gang members
02:39:30rapists domestic violence people to get firearms even though the law and everybody agrees they
02:39:36shouldn't have them so you have to do both of those two things it's a two-part strategy
02:39:41and there are people who only want me to do one and there are other people who only want me to do
02:39:46the other one and the fact of the matter is you're not going to make progress unless you have a
02:39:50reasonable approach on both so to follow up on that um how do you go about making those decisions
02:39:59about priorities and are there functions that you unfortunately have to deprioritize due to
02:40:06the resource constraints that you have and and what are those uh so you you you make the fun
02:40:11decisions based on data as best the data that you can find in real time it's not always perfect
02:40:17and there are bluntly there are areas of this country where i wish that we would have more
02:40:23agents the new york new york city um is an example so in new york city new york city police department
02:40:29is 36 000 strong i have about 30 people in new york city uh it is it is absolutely and we punch
02:40:37way above our weight and that there's that's the case everywhere so we are making decisions about
02:40:43where the crime threat is when i make an investment on the southwest border as we as we have not i we
02:40:49have at atf that means at atf that we can't start up a whole new division that means we're pulling
02:40:54agents from some other place that we really care about uh so we are constantly struggling
02:41:00to balance resources in the best way we can to face a lot of threats director um you know i i'm
02:41:08just about out of time but i think it's clear that without substantial funding we are not going
02:41:17to improve our statistics on gun violence and we're not going to improve our public safety
02:41:22outcomes we should be putting the money to work to help protect our kids i say that as a member of
02:41:29congress i also say that as a former teacher and of a parent of two teenagers we have to do something
02:41:35about this and not just talk about it thank you i yield back gentleman from north dakota is
02:41:40recognized we're conflating two issues here uh a man is dead and an officer was shot not because
02:41:47of rank and file law enforcement doing their job but because somebody made a leadership decision
02:41:52in order to execute a warrant in the most dangerous way possible given the circumstances
02:41:57of that case and we could sell 6 a.m and standard operating procedure you can do that everywhere
02:42:02else i've represented three officers and officers involved shootings i spent 10 years dealing with
02:42:08search warrants i know the facts of this case i know where the guy worked i know that he was
02:42:13surveilled and i know that they chose to implement a warrant in a way that absolutely maximized the
02:42:18risk of harm both to the person being served the warrant on and to the officers serving the warrant
02:42:23but i'm going to move on i'm going to move on to something else quick federal gun charges are
02:42:26what we call strict liability crimes right if you have a gun and you're a prohibited person
02:42:30that's the crime there doesn't need to be intent there doesn't need to be any of those things right
02:42:35disagree so if you're a felon in possession of a firearm you can intend you can say i didn't
02:42:40know i was a felon no but there's an intent requirement in congress's statute you can read
02:42:45922 g1 uh it's in the statute congressman you said earlier that atf's responsibility is to
02:42:52implement the laws that congress passes right correct when did the u.s house pass a rule
02:42:59classifying a pistol brace as a short barreled rifle that rule making is based upon the national
02:43:05firearms 1939 1934 pass a law they didn't 19 in 1934 congress passed the national firearms act
02:43:14which said that short barreled rifles were unusually dangerous i'm not asking you about
02:43:19short i'm not asking you about short barreled rifles i know what short barreled rifles are
02:43:23qualified as in the national firearms act when did congress pass a law saying pistol brace is
02:43:28qualified when did congress passed congress passed that they are covered by the national
02:43:34when did the president sign the law he didn't the first pistol brace was sold in 2012 a guy
02:43:39walked into a gun store bought it legally walked out of the gun store with the pistol brace
02:43:45rifle no need for two hundred dollars no need for a stamp you're saying if there's a new brand
02:43:49of gun that didn't exist in 1968 that the gun control act doesn't apply to it i'm saying in
02:43:542012 a guy in dickinson north dakota walked into a firearm store and bought a gun legally correct
02:44:01with a pistol brace didn't need to do a stamp didn't need to do a two hundred dollar didn't
02:44:05need to do a two hundred dollar registration uh again we look at i think no this is a factual
02:44:12question the first pistol brace was sold in 2012 did the person who purchased it need a stamp and
02:44:19did he need did he need the federal government's permission to buy that gun that's 2000
02:44:25respectfully the 2012 the thing that has been talked about in this committee previously
02:44:30was never brought to market okay so 2015 it would depend upon the actual design of the individual
02:44:38item there were numerous different items being manufactured you spent 20 years as a prosecutor
02:44:4320 years as a prosecutor you know the answers to these questions i'm done asking them i'm just
02:44:48going to go with numbers from 2012 until 2023 the atf estimates that there are three to three to
02:44:57seven million pistol braces sold on the civilian market not requiring the 200 stamp from the nfa
02:45:04for a short barreled rifle now what congressional research service says there are 10 to 40 million
02:45:10of those those things purchased in the same period of time manufacturer sales estimate are
02:45:15significantly higher than the atf's estimate to include and those estimates include exclude 2020
02:45:222021 and 2022 now the deputy chief of the atf has stated that prior to june 1 2023
02:45:32255 162 registrations on retroactive purchases were received by the atf does that sound accurate
02:45:41i don't know who that person they're going to have a title like that but the number sounds
02:45:44like the number of people uh that during a certain period of time uh sought registration
02:45:50the number does sound familiar but i don't know the quote so if i got a rancher in southwest north
02:45:55dakota who's hunting snow geese to a federal wildlife refuge and u.s force in a u.s agent
02:46:00comes out he purchased that rifle legally in 2015 and he's out shooting shooting geese with
02:46:06the shotgun u.s fish and wildlife comes to his car and sees a gun in there with a pistol brace
02:46:12what's the penalty for him now he bought the gun legally 2015 well again uh it's five to ten years
02:46:18and a max of 250 000 fine you talk about costs you talk about budget cuts so let's just assume
02:46:25the low end number of the atf numbers on three to seven million three to three million license
02:46:31three million guns that were purchased legally without any extra requirement the atf has gotten
02:46:37255 thousands of those registered so you are roughly saying 2.7 million people are now felons
02:46:46in possession of firearms for something they purchased legally i respectfully disagree with
02:46:51with a lot of the characterizations in your question the last administration attorney general
02:46:55barr issued guidance on this before we even before atf even got to this people people were on notice
02:47:02for years and years and years that you can't take something and break it into two and then put it
02:47:08together and treat it differently than the person who buys it in one piece they bought a gun legally
02:47:12and you guys retroactively made it illegal in a different qualification respectfully i disagree
02:47:18that is not what the the facts reflect the gentleman has expired the gentleman from missouri
02:47:22is recognized thank you mr chairman uh first i want to start by offering my condolences to
02:47:27miss malinowski who i believe was here um earlier uh st louis and i are here today seeking
02:47:32accountability for the gun violence epidemic in our country and for all instances of potential
02:47:38law enforcement misconduct director dedelbach thank you for being here today uh let me say
02:47:43that i support several of the atf's recent efforts including the ghost guns rule the
02:47:48stabilizing brace rule and the efforts to stop gun trafficking but as gun violence continues
02:47:53to shatter families and communities thanks in part to weak gun laws and republican controlled states
02:47:59like mine in missouri equitable and effective enforcement of our existing laws it must be a top
02:48:05priority there is a difference between the way the law is written and the way it is enforced
02:48:10as communities like st louis know all too well so taking on the gun violence epidemic requires
02:48:16asking hard questions about enforcement that's why the last time you were before this committee i
02:48:21asked you about the good old boys roundup in the 1980s and 1990s atf agents organized shameful
02:48:27whites only events which former atf director john mcgall characterized as being racist in nature
02:48:33anti-black and having discrimination almost every year it may seem like old history but there are
02:48:39legitimate and recent concerns about racial bias and the agency's enforcement operations
02:48:43specifically in its its use of sting operations for example a usa today investigation from 2014
02:48:51found that 91 percent of people arrested in atf sting operations were black or latino
02:48:57when you were u.s attorney your office prosecuted these kinds of cases are you aware of these
02:49:03concerns regarding sting operations and if any what steps have you taken to address
02:49:08at atf we are very clear that we don't look at any of those kinds of factors and it is absolutely
02:49:18necessity congresswoman that that law enforcement not look at these kind of factors
02:49:23and i would say uh there were uh you uh there were comments that were made earlier
02:49:28that i thought somebody was uh perhaps implying that because somebody's wealthy or lives in a
02:49:34nice neighborhood that they should be treated differently than other people and i and i know
02:49:39there are lots of people um who are who are in communities where they economically struggle who
02:49:44are law abiding citizens we don't assume that because of where you live or how much you make
02:49:50that you're any more or less likely to be a law-abiding citizen that is a core value at atf
02:49:55and it's very important for you to ask that question and very important for me to answer it
02:49:59thank you and um i will say that um um sometimes looking at it we get to what you just said though
02:50:06looking at it and seeing that we do understand that some that folks in marginalized communities
02:50:11are often over criminalized or criminalized period um is an issue that we must also address and fight
02:50:16to um i think you kind of started to allude to that um and so thank you these questions are
02:50:22essential because in order for the atf to be effective today it needs to fix the problems
02:50:26of yesterday including its troubled history of racist behavior and enforcement but my concern
02:50:31about enforcement does not extend only to questions of racism there needs to be accountability for all
02:50:36instances of potential misconduct by atf agents and that's why i do support my republican colleagues
02:50:42efforts to get more information from federal and local law enforcement about the death of
02:50:46brian malinowski i know there is evidence that mr malinowski fired first on the agents
02:50:51um but the circumstances warrant more information about what happened that day
02:50:54um but i say this because my solidarity i want to be clear my solidarity and my pursuit for
02:51:00accountability my pursuit of accountability are not conditional but i will say that i have been
02:51:06surprised to hear my republican colleagues expressing concern about law enforcement
02:51:10law enforcement shooting lack of body camera footage and no knock warrants i'm surprised
02:51:14because i and many of my democratic colleagues have pushed for law enforcement accountability
02:51:19for years and republicans have mocked us and fought against us at every step i'm surprised
02:51:24because 2023 set another record for law enforcement killings in this country police have killed an
02:51:30average of three people per day police disproportionately kill black people and
02:51:35there have only been nine days this year where police didn't kill someone yet republicans have
02:51:41refused to hold hearings about any of those deaths and my question is where have you been
02:51:45where have you been trayvon martin mike brown we've been protesting for 10 years we have been
02:51:51protesting we've been shot with rubber bullets we've been uh dog we've had dogs um unleashed
02:51:56we have been hit with tear gas and rubber bullets george floyd we were out there for three months
02:52:02mike brown we were out there for 400 days where were you why didn't you care then because they're
02:52:07black i don't understand all of a sudden now we want to talk but see the thing is this um
02:52:13when we took a knee that folks were mad and criticized us when we were non-violent people
02:52:19still criticized us but now all of a sudden is because all of a sudden now the difference is
02:52:25is it color but i say this my solidarity is not content not conditional so i ask them for the
02:52:32record that their solidarity is not conditional that they are willing to support oversight and
02:52:37accountability for all deaths by law enforcement officers regardless of race ethnicity faith
02:52:43location or anything else that they will vote for real policy solutions that prevent police
02:52:48brutality and fund programs that keep our communities safe including gun violence and
02:52:53yes i went over because someone else went over too i just want to hear that come from my my
02:52:58republican colleagues the time of the gentle you care about police brutality that affects
02:53:02every person i thank you the time the gentle ladies expired the gentleman from wisconsin
02:53:05is recognized thank you mr chair uh director as you may know i'm the co-lead alongside with
02:53:12congressman stan of arizona on the bill that's exempting certain less than lethal projectile
02:53:19devices from the gun control act definition of a firearm tasers um atf provided some comments
02:53:28on an earlier draft of the bill noting some concerns with the legislation i'm sure you're
02:53:34aware of the bill do you still does atf still have the same concerns that we had on the earlier version
02:53:39i don't know congressman can i get back to you on that i don't want to answer precipitously i know
02:53:43this is an important issue for a lot of people um including some in law enforcement have expressed
02:53:48views on it so can we get back to you on that because i don't know whether the whether the
02:53:52any changes in the bill have affected anything okay so um then let me just bear with me then
02:53:58i'll explain some of the arguments hopefully um as the director your understanding of the
02:54:05gun control act will be strong enough to provide some context but um the proposed definition of
02:54:11less than lethal lethal device would be unworkable in the field i think is the issue because officers
02:54:17and agents cannot measure the projectile velocity velocity during field stops and and searches and
02:54:23seizures opposed to in centrally but you're talking about out in the field i understand
02:54:29so um i mean atf doesn't currently test any of the firearm velocity in the field on any of the
02:54:36seat search and seizure stuff is that true is that right or not to the best of my knowledge that is
02:54:42correct um it's always hard because some of our operations aren't in washington we have operations
02:54:48that are not field operations but are centralized in other places so i want to be careful uh but we
02:54:53have i i think you're right as a general matter yes i'll check though and get back to you if that's
02:54:58not correct i'll get back to you okay okay so to be clear atf right now though the concerns
02:55:04that this change would be unworkable in the field hinges on the idea that officers and agents
02:55:08would suddenly need to start measuring velocity and checking the internal workings right i mean
02:55:14what i'm trying to get to the bottom because i think congress is way beyond atf on this i think
02:55:20there's a bipartisan group that certainly is starting to grow when it comes to this technology
02:55:28and atf still seems stuck in where we were three four or five years ago
02:55:35okay i understand we will get i mean obviously you're you're getting the same feedback that we
02:55:41are because this is law enforcement wants more there are exceptions in the current law for law
02:55:47enforcement but uh i understand your concern and we will get back to you congressman i will commit
02:55:53to you that we will get back to you okay very good very good um so with the time that i have
02:55:58left i just also wanted to submit for the record a letter from mr earl griffith who served in the
02:56:04atf for more than 20 years retiring as a division chief of atf's firearm and ammunition technology
02:56:10division mr griffith's letter dated march 6 2024 is in support of the bill hr 32 69
02:56:20and suggests that atf already has the existing authority to revisit classification determinations
02:56:26if the manufacturer decides to modify a less lethal projectile device into a lethal configuration
02:56:35and that's what the manufacturers are doing i mean they're changing the technology to kind of match
02:56:39up with where atf is at and i think that's unnecessary i think this thing could be cleaned
02:56:44up if if we would just have somebody pay attention to kind of where congress is moving on this and
02:56:50how quickly we're moving congressman my understanding is that the statutory language
02:56:53that is at issue in a lot of these is to to expel a projectile by means of explosive of an explosion
02:57:01and that is uh what is causing some of these classifications now mr griffith obviously is a is
02:57:07a well-respected like a long-time atf employee we'll look at the letter um and try to try to get
02:57:13back to your office uh on where things stand yeah i i'm just telling you congress is way ahead of
02:57:18where atf is on this and that's why i wish you would take a a deeper kind of longer look at
02:57:25kind of where we're at because otherwise the input that you would have is simply not going
02:57:30to be taken seriously if the statute is written or if the changes are already made so i would
02:57:35encourage you to do that i yield back gentlemen yield 30 seconds for the gentleman yield yeah
02:57:41thank you uh i just real quick you you mentioned earlier that we need to be focused on the facts
02:57:44particularly relative to the malinowski case i just i just want to make make clear understand
02:57:49are you disputing that the atf was not in little rock arkansas ready to execute a raid on the week
02:57:55before on march 12 2024 i'm not i'm neither disputing uh we saw the video we saw the video
02:58:02there's a lot of content again this is a this is a slippery slope i i mean it's i have to abide by
02:58:11our department of justice policy atf wasn't in little rock i'm not i'm not saying any of that
02:58:16i'm saying that until the investigation is completed i am not disputing that fact or any
02:58:22other fact i'm trying to counsel because i hear a lot of things going out there you said earlier
02:58:27things were stated that were not facts i think i was in the fact i wasn't focusing on that there's
02:58:32been a lot of things said congressman mr chairman i'm sorry virginia is recognized
02:58:37the death of brian malinowski is a tragedy but unfortunately uh it is not a surprise given the
02:58:45cavalier attitude of the atf over the years and the way that they play fast and loose with the law
02:58:52and with the facts and with the lives of american citizens i want to ask you about the latest
02:59:00the latest area in which the atf is playing fast and loose and really um taking actions that are
02:59:09going to endanger more lives in the future if if we don't see changes and that's the new attempt uh
02:59:15to to have a universal registration check rule um as you know the gun control act and makes it
02:59:22unlawful for any person to save a licensed dealer to engage in the business of dealing in firearms
02:59:26until he's filed an application with atf and received a license the 86 act modified the gca
02:59:33adding a statutory definition of engaging in the business and then in 2022 biden signed into law
02:59:39the bsca which broadened the definition by eliminating principal objective and replacing
02:59:45it with a requirement to predominantly earn a profit but i want to ask you because
02:59:54uh people who make occasional sales exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a
02:59:59personal collection or for a hobby or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms
03:00:05uh that was that portion of fopa altered by the 22 act um so so was the exclusion altered that
03:00:14language is in that language i believe i mean this is in litigation our position and the the rule
03:00:20speaks for itself but i believe you will find in black and white in the rule that language that
03:00:25you just said that in black and white in the rule that language is there yes that that language
03:00:30remains that exclusion remains unaltered by the bsca so uh these people who make occasional sales
03:00:39exchanges or personal purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for
03:00:43a hobby or who sell all or part of their personal collection of firearms are exempt from
03:00:48exempt from this 22 act modification and yet what we see for those activities right for those
03:00:57activities all right let's do a whole bunch of other things right do you believe that a personal
03:01:01collection of firearms can be for self-defense uh so i think again the the provisions of the
03:01:07rule speak for itself and in this format it's hard to get into a deep debate on this we also
03:01:13have filed significant legal papers in courts that are hearing this and because it's pending
03:01:18litigation nothing i say can or should contradict any of those things uh the rule sets forth
03:01:25conduct-based factors which under the totality of circumstances right could give rise to somebody
03:01:32being engaged in the business or not i'm going to use examples it gives i'm glad you said conduct
03:01:37because where did congress make it a crime to merely intend to earn a profit off of sailing a
03:01:43privately owned firearm because that's what you're attempting to there clearly is an intent element
03:01:48of this statute that congress intent there's no action again as in many criminal statutes
03:01:55uh and many statutes that are regulatory uh there is both a a an act and an intent sometimes uh
03:02:05those things differ from statute and regulation to other statutes and regulations the text of the
03:02:10law and the text of the rule are always what controls didn't change and so your efforts to
03:02:17become mind readers over at atf and somehow determine intent based on no activity whatsoever
03:02:24on the part of a of a gun owner uh to earn a profit well congressman is playing fast and
03:02:31loose with the statute yet congressman not even talking about this statute but in many many many
03:02:36uh regulatory functions uh and many administrative proceedings many civil proceedings uh people's
03:02:43intent uh is part of the determination that finders of fact make they look at their words
03:02:49they look at they look at various different things that they're doing and they can infer
03:02:53intent i think the standard jury instruction in many cases talks about these things well i i just
03:02:59want to know when congress authorized atf to require americans who offer to sell even one
03:03:04firearm to another family member to get a federal license submit fingerprints maintain government
03:03:09registration paperwork register as a business and keep regular business hours open for atf
03:03:13inspections congressman never did that let me be clear this is not the rule cannot and is not and
03:03:19does not create a universal background check uh we could not do that only congress could do that and
03:03:25i want to be very clear here that the rule does not do that i get what you're doing atf is playing
03:03:30too cute by half the american people see it we see it and we're not going to allow you to do that i
03:03:34yield back gentleman yields back generally from wyoming's recognized um a december 2021 atf momo
03:03:41alerted the american people that the atf was maintaining a digital searchable centralized
03:03:46registry of guns and gun owners in violation of various federal prohibitions and contrary to what
03:03:52you testified to under oath today in response representative michael cloud and 52 house members
03:03:58sent the atf a letter dated november 22nd 2021 atf responded to that letter stating that it had
03:04:06920 million 664 thousand 765 records 8 865 million 787 and 86 000 of which are in a digitalized
03:04:20format which gun owners of america has proved to be searchable this was discovered shortly after
03:04:26atf was revealed to have processed over 54 million records in a single year what is the latest record
03:04:34count for atf's illegal digital searchable national gun registry zero we don't have we
03:04:42obey the law according to your letter none of our records letter you have over 865
03:04:49millions of these records are in digitalized format you have admitted it respectfully uh we
03:04:59are i i think atf is the only customer of adobe acrobat that pays money to remove search function
03:05:06before the commerce justice science subcommittee of the appropriations committee in april of last
03:05:11year you testified that atf pays adobe acrobat extra to have certain search functionality
03:05:17eliminated that's not correct well is atf's digital database of gun owner records capable
03:05:23of being opened by normal adobe acrobat and searched by name again we pay yes or no question
03:05:31is it uh we pay to have search function eliminate we don't pay adobe acrobat i believe we pay
03:05:36somebody else but atf asked could adobe acrobat re-enable name search functionality on atf's
03:05:43illegal gun registry it is not an illegal registry we do not if they search by we do not
03:05:48search by we do not search in the method that you're suggesting and we cannot and and these
03:05:55are records that are are we we pay a public safety cost which congress is congress to balance for
03:06:03this decision if atf asked could adobe acrobat re-enable name search functionality on atf's
03:06:10illegal gun registry i'm not an expert in adobe acrobat coding i do know that we do not keep a
03:06:17gun registry i also know that you have admitted that you have over 920 million records over 865
03:06:25million of which are in digitalized format correct uh the question if your answer is are they are
03:06:35they somehow scanned in so that we literally don't have to have 950 million pieces of paper
03:06:41that is a lot different from what you're implying with respect to having a gun registry it is also
03:06:46true congressman that that we don't have any records of firearms purchases for people who
03:06:54are still in business which is the vast majority of currently sold firearms we have zero you also
03:06:59testified before that subcommittee that atf's digital database of gun and gun owners is not
03:07:05capable of being searched by personal identifier can atf's gun registry be searched by make model
03:07:12and serial number a number enough search ability to create a list of say all ar-15 owners uh the
03:07:19answer to your question is we do not create use search around the registry you're not answering
03:07:26my question your question had respectfully it was a technical question with five or six different
03:07:32parts i'm trying not to erroneously as you said i'm under oath i'm trying not to erroneously
03:07:37misstate things of technical nature we do not keep a registry we use these things for pending
03:07:44homicide investigations it takes us a lot longer to find the name of the killer Mr. Dettelbach
03:07:51you have mentioned gun running and gun violence associated with Mexican cartels uh and the crime
03:07:56associated with that in fact you refer to the cartels as quote the most dangerous organizations
03:08:01in the world how many conversations have you had with President Biden or Secretary
03:08:06Mayorkas demanding that they close the southern border uh we do not how many questions how many
03:08:13discussions have you had with President Biden or Mayorkas about closing the southern border
03:08:18uh the answer to your question is i i we work with DHS how many border related had with them
03:08:25demanding that they close the southern border it's a simple question again we i have con
03:08:33may i answer how many how many conversations have you had demanding discuss our border related
03:08:39security issues with DHS frequently i have had conversations with Secretary Mayorkas about our
03:08:46efforts have you demanded that they close the southern border i'm at ATF it is not our
03:08:51jurisdiction to police the southern border that's for DHS congresswoman you don't care about crime
03:08:56in this country if you're not trying to address what's going on at the southern border respectfully
03:09:00i deeply disagree i think it's very unfair gentleladies time has expired the gentleman
03:09:05from South Carolina is recognized thank you chairman director here's what i find troubling
03:09:09in 2021 there were five FFL licenses that were revoked but in 2023 that number has jumped to 157
03:09:17i believe that's a dramatic increase and in my opinion i think we've echoed this on this side
03:09:22a very stark indicator of the Biden administration's aggressive overreach against FFLs
03:09:28and here's what's worse an increasing number of firearms dealers uh faced with severe and
03:09:33often disproportionate consequences for minor clerical errors have elected to shut down
03:09:39their operations rather than endure the extensive and costly process of defending their
03:09:44practices this is like David versus Goliath except that Goliath the U.S. government wins because
03:09:50all the resources are there and you have a small business trying to defend themselves against the
03:09:56insurmountable resources of a federal government so let's take a look at the number of voluntary
03:10:01business closures post inspection over the last couple years in 2021 there were 24
03:10:072022 69 and 2023 there were 80. This is a result of ATF's zero tolerance policy
03:10:16and quite frankly a very concerning trajectory of ATF this is all occurring under the guise of
03:10:25public safety but ATF is essentially working to dismantle a very lawful firearm industry
03:10:31let me ask you something and this was talked about earlier where can i find authorization
03:10:35from congress that you would revoke somebody's FFL for a minor clerical error where is that in
03:10:41the statute the statute uh and and the policy and our implementation deals with willful violations
03:10:48and and by the way it limits them further to violations that endanger public safety
03:10:53the vast majority one thing i hope i think we agree on which i want to say because it's important
03:10:57the vast majority of firearms licensees out there are following the law and following the rules
03:11:03they're law-abiding businesses that's why over 98 almost 99 percent of our inspections do not
03:11:10result in revocation there's due process people can request a hearing in the hearings congressman
03:11:16that we conduct these are administrative hearings at ATF half the time we decide not to revoke
03:11:22because of something that the FFL presents to us people have lawyers at some of those they don't
03:11:26have lawyers at others and in many cases we work with FFLs to try and cure any defects if they're
03:11:32clerical defects to make the FFL stronger in terms of a target for people who not the FFL is being
03:11:39doing something illegal but others are taking advantage of weak controls and that can be a
03:11:43public safety threat as well as you know even a law-abiding FFL if they're not careful can be
03:11:49taken advantage of by straw purchasers director here's my concern and i know we've got limited
03:11:53time and i'm sorry certainly respectful of yours the BSCA was passed in 2022 based on that you have
03:12:03there's been a slight modification to the rule that quote even a single transaction or offer
03:12:08to engage in a transaction when combined with other evidence may be sufficient to require a
03:12:14license as an FFL and so you are inferring from that and again i think this is where the minor
03:12:19clerical errors come in congress has made no law to this there is a 2022 amendment uh but i think
03:12:26you have largely ignored another statute 18 usc 921 a21 are you familiar with that statute
03:12:32yeah i'm familiar with all the the code but i i respond respond director what does that say what
03:12:37does that statute say i i believe it's a provision you're talking about for importers which is a
03:12:42provision that you're referring to it says that the term engaged in business okay so the
03:12:49engagement not include a person that makes occasional sales exchanges or purchases of
03:12:53firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a hobby or who sells all or
03:12:58part of their personal collection or firearms that's quoted in the rule correct the concern
03:13:02that i have though is that that's not the application by etf that you're taking a very
03:13:06heavy-handed approach and again you have to look at the disproportionality of this is that
03:13:11you have the heavy hand of government you have the enforcement you're creating these rules i think
03:13:15which are beyond the scope of what congress has implied or directed and you are using this to
03:13:22kind of target people and again i'm not talking about the bad actors i'm talking about lawful
03:13:27businesses who are trying to do the right thing and have minor clerical errors let me ask you
03:13:30something real quick on shift gears could you describe spartan what is spartan uh spartan is
03:13:37the name of the general case management system that exists at atf it replaced an older system
03:13:43the system had been in in service for many many years it was no longer supported i think anymore
03:13:48by by the technology out there so we replaced it with the new case management system so atf
03:13:54administrative investigators are tasked with determining whether an ffl willfully
03:14:00did anything and according to a recent atf revocation hearing whether quote in preparing
03:14:04the report of violations is the issue of willfulness even a factor end quote the atf
03:14:10director responded i input data and spartan does the figuring so are we allowing ai to determine
03:14:18whether or not something is willful i'm so glad you're absolutely not these are people
03:14:23human beings review all of these things at supervisory levels you cannot revoke somebody
03:14:29and without time the general levels of approval time the gentleman's expired gentlemen he was
03:14:34back gentleman from texas recognized thank you mr chairman we're almost done sir thank you for
03:14:38being here for a second time thank you for your time really appreciate it um basic question sir
03:14:43you're an attorney correct it's my understanding yes i am sir so i'm going to give you the benefit
03:14:48of the doubt knowing that you understand the constitution including our bill of rights correct
03:14:53i hope so sir so what is your interpretation of our second amendment do you think that
03:14:57americans have the right to bear arms yes or no and just give me your brief overall view of it
03:15:02yes and i think what we do is we look to what the supreme court has decided on this the supreme
03:15:07court uh congressman has been very clear on this the law is the second amendment jurisprudence is
03:15:13lengthy and changing but as a lawyer uh i don't get to decide that the courts decide it and and
03:15:19and the courts have said yes it's the answer to your question okay so we have these second
03:15:24member rights because we know how important it is for us to maintain our constitutional republic
03:15:28and a functioning republic because again as a gun owner myself as a lawful gun owner myself
03:15:34it's very important to me to be able to protect my home and also prevent uh tyrannical governments
03:15:38from infringing on our rights as human beings bestowed to us in our constitution uh so it's
03:15:46my humble opinion sir that the atf is certainly infringing on a lot of these rules for law
03:15:51abiding citizens and infringing on our second amendment rights for law abiding citizens i'm
03:15:56not talking about trying to catch the bad guys that have guns i am talking about implementing
03:16:01a level of of pain on people like me uh that quite frankly was not given was not bestowed to us via
03:16:11the that is bestowed to us via the second amendment unfortunately as bureaucrats are
03:16:15attempting to infringe on the second amendment rights that some lawmakers of congress they see
03:16:19gun owner tragedies as an opportunity to to slowly chip away at these rights so recently lawmakers
03:16:26used a heartbreaking uvalde tragedy as an opportunity to pass red flag legislation this
03:16:30is a fact i remember a time when we were told that that red flag laws were simply a conspiracy
03:16:36theory i'm old enough to remember that and they are not a conspiracy theory anymore sir red flag
03:16:41laws are in bills and they are in biden's executive orders if you don't know what red flags are in
03:16:46short red flag laws are a type of pre-crime enforcement where courts grant orders allowing
03:16:52for the seizure of firearms from someone who hasn't committed an actual crime when i think
03:16:59of red flag laws i see the safer communities act which president biden signed into law in 2022
03:17:05the safer communities act included 750 million dollars in funding for states to implement and
03:17:10improve red flag laws again that's going after the good guys not the bad guys but it had to stop
03:17:17there it has not stopped there sir biden 2023 announced an executive order on gun control
03:17:22with the goal of quote increasing the effective use of red flag laws biden also opened the office
03:17:29of gun violence prevention led by kamala harris which has further encouraged and entrenched red
03:17:35flag laws across the nation these are all facts i'm still waiting for her to tell us what the
03:17:42root causes are of of the border crisis and you're going to try to tell me that kamala harris
03:17:47is going to tell us the root causes of gun violence good luck with that finally the atf has
03:17:52expanded upon the safer communities act by issuing a new ruling that in practice will implement
03:17:57universal background checks i'm going to say choir part out loud because we're almost done
03:18:03whenever a gun tragedy occurs in this country we always hear the left say we have to do something
03:18:08we have to do more and then once legislation is passed my colleagues on the left then say we have
03:18:13to always do more and more and more and more i'm going to warn the american people that we have to
03:18:19do more what we have to do more really really means first to come after ar-15s then they come
03:18:25after your sporting rifles then they come after your long guns and then when homicides have not
03:18:30decreased because you take away all of those weapons and keep in mind the ar-15 is responsible
03:18:36for six six percent of homicides in this country they're going to come after your handguns and
03:18:41disarm our country and disarm our rights and take away our second amendment rights that have been
03:18:47given to us by our founding fathers and rather than take away guns from law-abiding citizens
03:18:52instead we should be going after criminals specifically criminals the reason why i'm
03:18:58talking about red flag laws is because the american public understands that we're going
03:19:02to start having a mission creep here you go after one thing you go after another thing and then
03:19:06there's always more there's always going to be a fight we're using tragedies to infringe on rights
03:19:11that have been given to us by our second amendment and as you being the head of the atf i need you
03:19:16to be cognizant and very aware of that because most of the people in texas that are ranch owners
03:19:21ar-15 owners like myself combat veterans like myself we don't need more laws we'd implement
03:19:27the laws that we have on the books and go after the bad guys that have guns not the good guys and
03:19:33that's your job thank you sir for being here sir and i yield back the rest of my time gentlemen
03:19:37yields back uh director thank you for being here i apologize we got to run to votes and so we're
03:19:41going to sprint out of here we appreciate you being here for three and a half hours thank you
03:19:44and answer our question that concludes today's hearing without objection all members will have
03:19:48five legislative days submit additional written questions for the witnesses for the witness or
03:19:51additional materials for the record without objection the hearing is adjourned

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