Watch Finance Minister #NirmalaSitharaman in conversation with Vasudha Venugopal ahead of last phase of #LokSabhaElections2024.
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00:00But with something that happened today, you posted something very interesting on X.
00:03You've talked about the steps that the government has taken to improve the credibility
00:07and the transparency of budgets in India.
00:10Tell us, ma'am, what kind of consequences have these moves had on the budget,
00:15on the economy and the growth of the country?
00:19Well, I've tweeted about five long tweets.
00:22They're not short 140 characters, 240 characters.
00:25They are long ones.
00:27But I've been doing it on selected critical topics in which the last 10 years,
00:33the finance ministry has made a big difference.
00:36And we think some milestone achievements have been reached.
00:42In that, the one which is today speaks about the changes that we've brought about
00:47in the budgeting process and also in the very way in which the budget is made.
00:55And the speech.
00:57In all this, two highlighted points are transparency and efficient
01:04and effective ways of using taxpayers' money.
01:09So the aim has been that the budget has to be a transparent and credible statement.
01:16I'm not suggesting earlier budgets were not credible.
01:18I'm suggesting that it has to be completely transparent and completely speak for itself.
01:24So it cannot be that I've borrowed money,
01:27but I've not shown it in the budget statement and I've kept it somewhere else.
01:33So every activity of the finance ministry,
01:36which forms a part of the financial statement,
01:41will have to be explicitly shown.
01:43So for that, we've taken a lot of steps,
01:46brought every extra out-of-the-budget borrowing also onto board, onto the budget.
01:53And therefore, what you see in the budget is what is actually happening in the finance ministry.
01:58That's one.
01:59And second, language is something on which I'm very keen to highlight.
02:04The budget, when read out or as it is being read out,
02:09sometimes goes beyond a citizen.
02:12He thinks, oh, it's all technical.
02:13We don't need to hear it.
02:15But tell me, what does the tax on me?
02:17And that's the limited extent to which he's...
02:19But we wanted to make sure that every citizen is able to understand what is being read out.
02:25So the bureaucratic roundabout way of saying things are all cut down
02:31and it's a sharp reading out of the statement.
02:34And therefore, anyone can understand, anyone can take points out of it.
02:40But the second point that has to be highlighted,
02:43which I've started saying it,
02:45is money that is taken as tax will have to be timely used,
02:51used properly, and shown that it is being used.
02:55So that is the transparency with which we use, efficiency with which we use.
03:00And as a result of which, what are the steps that I've taken to show that taxpayer's money is being used?
03:05That is why today's set of two tweets, five long tweets,
03:09go into the details of what has happened in the 10 years,
03:12that India's budgetary process is now lots more transparent
03:17and accounts for efficient use of every rupee collected.
03:21I particularly like the fiscal prudence part and I'll come to that in a bit.
03:24You've been traveling across the country, you're in Maharashtra,
03:26you went to Kolkata, you're going to Punjab to campaign.
03:29Ma'am, when I talk to the BJP people, they are very optimistic about Odisha, Bengal and Telangana.
03:34The opposition seems quite hopeful about Maharashtra and Bihar.
03:37What is your assessment of the elections 2024?
03:40Prime Minister Modi is forming the third government, third time, with good majority.
03:49There's no doubt.
03:51The alliance, the opposition alliance, the Indy alliance,
03:56is making a lot of statements as it is,
04:01with a sense that they're not winning,
04:04but also probably, and I'm able to smell this or I'm able to get a feeling of it,
04:09you may ask me for proof, it might be difficult and it might be circuitous in the way in which I can explain it,
04:15but nevertheless, it is there and the people with whom I am talking,
04:19politically neutral people also think,
04:22the Indy alliance is now starting to undertake an exercise, as it were,
04:31to deny victory to Prime Minister Modi,
04:33meaning, he'll win, seats are going to be declared out and then we'll form the government.
04:40But they would want to raise questions about the election commission, EVM,
04:45the process, data not being released.
04:49The toolkit of the Indy alliance is now activated to say,
04:54is this win alright?
04:55Or are there questions about this win?
04:58I see an attempt very clearly that they are sore and bad losers.
05:03They're going to lose, no doubt.
05:06And it's not the business of the ruling party to make an effective opposition campaign,
05:11which is, you know,
05:14aar paar ka takkar, as they say in Hindi.
05:17It's not our business, we'll go about doing our campaign.
05:19If your campaign, if you as an opposition is able to fight the selection effectively, fight it out.
05:25And if you're able to win, very well.
05:27But at the moment, my feeling is, or the sense that I'm getting is,
05:31all kinds of handles in the social media and all kinds of speeches are now aiming at
05:38question this victory itself,
05:40which is what sour grapes are all about.
05:45That's very interesting, ma'am.
05:46And when Rahul Gandhi keeps talking about unemployment and price rises,
05:49the most important issue is this election.
05:51In fact, he said that unemployment in India is worse than Pakistan.
05:55How do you look at such kind of blanket criticism?
05:57And how fair do you think such kind of assessment even is?
06:01See, it is one thing to criticize.
06:03It's one thing to criticize with some data, at least.
06:07But if the criticism, and in this particular one,
06:10if the criticism is to downplay India's achievements
06:16and to constantly underrate our performance,
06:21it stands out as a campaign in poor taste.
06:26And I'll not hesitate to say that the Congress Party,
06:29particularly Sri Rahul Gandhi, constantly is on
06:34undermine Indian people's achievements,
06:38berate it, and also question good solid work which has been done.
06:43You don't need to give the credit to government.
06:45You can, as a typical opposition, you can always stand up and say,
06:48no, no, we could have done it better.
06:50This is not the way to do about it.
06:51Our alternative is this.
06:53This is what we offer people of India.
06:55I fully will listen to him and take him seriously to even work out a reply.
07:01But if the sense is, I will, even at the cost of underrating our achievements,
07:08undermining people of India's own work,
07:12I will speak in such a way that people can have a shock value.
07:17The impact that audience will listen to him is shock,
07:20saying, is this what is happening?
07:21No.
07:24It is to that level in their frustration they have gone.
07:27And this is one example of that level of frustration going wrong.
07:32So you've been emphasizing a lot on responsibility of language, right?
07:35So when we talk about this whole idea of wealth redistribution
07:37that Prime Minister has also lashed out against Rahul Gandhi
07:40for saying that it could be a danger for the fabric of the society.
07:44But Congress saying that this is critical to social justice.
07:47How feasible or realistic do you even think something like
07:50a wealth redistribution proposal is?
07:52See, the wealth redistribution proposal as it appears,
07:56they can always be ambiguous in saying, no, I didn't say that.
08:04Oh, where did I say that?
08:06Oh, did my manifesto speak about it?
08:08They can do all this.
08:10But they are clearly creating a myth of wealth redistribution
08:19in one form or the other, where you are clearly telling people
08:24who worked hard and earned their living or therefore found some saving
08:29and kept something back for their families,
08:32that the state may have every right to take that away
08:36and give it off to people who they think should get it.
08:40Now, in all fairness, if your formulation is not clear,
08:45it can definitely lead to all kinds of interpretations.
08:49Now, after that, if you accuse us saying,
08:53what kind of an interpretation?
08:54I didn't say that.
08:54Tell me where I've said it.
08:55Is it in my manifesto?
08:56Did I speak about it?
08:58It's a very defensive way of going about it.
09:01The idea that you will disincentivize or discourage people
09:06who have had legitimate earnings kept for rainy days
09:11to be taken off and given to others is just not acceptable.
09:18If that is the way in which it has to be done,
09:20you saw how in the last 60 years or 50 years
09:23of when Congress Party wasn't ruled, they've attempted to do things.
09:2790% income tax, 90% of all your earning was going away.
09:31Did it eliminate poverty?
09:33Did it make the poor richer?
09:35So Congress Party's confused ideological positions,
09:41which of late is very influenced by left extreme views,
09:48is just not the solution the Indian young aspiring class wants.
09:53They want to work hard, earn their way through,
09:56and also succeed in what they legitimately can do.
10:00If they scan the society, assess what they have,
10:04and redistribute is the position,
10:07people are not going to accept it, and they'll learn on 4th June.
10:10Right. So linked question, madam.
10:12Congress Party has also promised one lakh per household to every poor family,
10:18and similar benefits are also being promised by Aam Aadmi Party and of course DMC.
10:23We see Punjab elections also coming up.
10:26This competitive welfarism or populism,
10:28as a reporter I've seen so many chief ministers coming to meet you.
10:32What kind of consequences does that have on the fiscal health of a state?
10:37If the state doesn't have enough resources on its own,
10:42or is not able to account for additional revenue generated,
10:47which could be diverted for such welfarism,
10:51it is definitely going to burden the future generations.
10:55We have at least three or four examples of states
10:59which have come up with such kind of welfare,
11:02very appealing promises,
11:05and when they go about implementing it,
11:07find that it is hard to get the necessary resources for it.
11:11As a result, money which should be otherwise going for development reasons,
11:16are diverted because this is a promise on which they won the election and come off.
11:21But equally, when there are projects which have to be completed,
11:26they borrow and borrow beyond the means of the state,
11:30and end of the day, leaving huge debts.
11:32Now, if your debts are for creating assets,
11:37you can at least be sure that it will bring earnings,
11:40and the assets value will go up,
11:41and as a result you can pay the debt back.
11:44But if the borrowing is more for only meeting with your revenue or committed expenditures,
11:50then the state is worse off.
11:52This principle is mostly understood by all states,
11:56but notwithstanding,
11:58they go about their work,
11:59and finally blame the centre,
12:01because easily, common people are not going to understand.
12:04They would think, oh, the state has given a promise, it has to fulfil it,
12:08why not get the money from the centre?
12:10Centre's money doesn't get distributed as per the whims of the state,
12:14they go as per the recommendation given by the Finance Commission,
12:18which is a constitutionally provided body.
12:22Ma'am, I know the time is very short,
12:23I would like to ask two questions, one at a time.
12:27The polling numbers have not been really great in some states,
12:30the dip is large in some states,
12:32significant in some states like UP, Bihar, and of course Madhya Pradesh,
12:35and it's lower in south of India.
12:39Is that a worry for all political parties?
12:41But women seem to have really come out and vote,
12:43phase 5 showed more women voting.
12:45Is that also the Sandesh Khali effect, at least when it comes to West Bengal?
12:49Undoubtedly, in West Bengal, if it is Sandesh Khali,
12:54in West Bengal also, and in the rest of the country,
12:58women have seen benefits reach them.
13:02Women have seen schemes work for them.
13:05Women also keep what has already come to them
13:09as a deciding factor when they go to vote.
13:14And as a result, you find more of them coming,
13:17almost as though giving a stamp of approval,
13:20saying you promised these, you've delivered on them,
13:23here are we now to vote for you.
13:26So women normally go by these considerations,
13:29and that is why you find their numbers more.
13:32But other thing is, when you look at the percentages in some states,
13:37the numbers stand somewhat,
13:41showing that there can be a decline in the number
13:44of people who turned out for voting.
13:46But in absolute numbers, they stand out as being more.
13:50That is also because more voters are on the rolls,
13:53and therefore absolute numbers are more, the percentage still being.
13:56The percentage being less, in general,
13:59means there is a certain level of indifference, which is not good.
14:04Irrespective of the party to which they would want to vote,
14:06voters should come, people of India should come to participate
14:10in this celebration of democracy.
14:12I understand the heat factor, and also the long stretch of election,
14:18the seven-phase election process,
14:21all of them have worked on some people's mind.
14:24But I hope people do realise and come for voting.
14:27My last question, ma'am, the share market,
14:29like Prime Minister has said, it's going to hit a record high
14:31on the 4th of June, but we've also seen how volatile
14:34the behaviour has been in the last few weeks.
14:36There's been movement from bank deposit to the market.
14:38What is your advice on this?
14:41But in general, I think Indian stock market has had less volatility
14:44compared to the global markets.
14:47And the shift from, let's say, fixed deposit or post office saving
14:52to the retail investments, either through mutual funds
14:55or DMAT accounts directly, I think is a healthy trend.
15:01Because people are now benefiting from the transparent ways
15:05in which companies, the listed companies,
15:07are disclosing their information.
15:09When they disclose the information, people do understand
15:13that well-governed companies are up there performing well
15:16and they can give good dividends.
15:19And as a result, even small investors,
15:21irrespective of the risk that the market poses,
15:24are coming in on the back of good information flow.
15:28It's a good trend.
15:29In fact, that has also served as a cushion
15:32when FPIs and FIIs flow out of India.
15:35There is no huge shock
15:38because these people are there to absorb the shock.
15:40It's a good, healthy trend and it should continue.
15:43Thank you so much, ma'am.
15:44That was Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman
15:46speaking on a host of issues from competitive populism
15:49to fiscal prudence with Cameraperson Pawan and Pooja.
15:52This is Vasudha Venugopal for NDTV.
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