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00:00 It's been that in Paris, this is World Roundup. I'm Mark Owen. The breaking news this hour,
00:07 Donald Trump convicted in the Hush Money Fraud Trial on all 34 felony counts against him.
00:15 He makes history as the first former US president to be convicted in such a manner. This is
00:22 World Roundup.
00:36 Thank you for being with us. We're dedicating our coverage to the Trump trial and this sensational
00:41 result, the conviction of Donald Trump on all 34 felony counts that he was facing in
00:46 what became known as the Hush Money Fraud Trial. His reaction, as one might expect,
00:52 was very belligerent outside the court. He blamed everybody but himself for his misfortune.
00:58 This was a disgrace. This was a rigged trial by a conflicted judge who was corrupt. It's
01:06 a rigged trial, a disgrace. They wouldn't give us a venue change. We were at 5% or 6%
01:15 in this district, in this area. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial. The real verdict
01:23 is going to be November 5th by the people. And they know what happened here and everybody
01:29 knows what happened here.
01:31 Donald Trump in that characteristic voice blaming everybody but himself for his misfortune.
01:35 The fact of the matter is a jury took just over 11 hours to convict him on all 34 counts
01:40 that he was facing in what became known as the Hush Money Trial. Monty Francis has been
01:45 following it from the start. He's with us now. Monty, in terms of what we've seen here,
01:49 yes, history has been made, but a remarkable, a remarkable evening. What kind of reactions
01:55 have we had?
01:56 Yes, so we're getting in reactions, you know, minute by minute here. The latest is that
02:01 the Trump campaign sent out a fundraising email in which Trump said in all capital letters,
02:05 I am a political prisoner. So that is a more comment from him from what we just saw, in
02:12 addition to the comments he made outside court there. The jury spent, like you said, about
02:17 11 hours, 11 hours and 43 minutes to be exact, to make this decision over two days, finding
02:23 him guilty of all 34 counts of falsifying business records, usually misdemeanors. Those
02:29 were charged as felonies because it was done in the furtherance of another crime. The jury
02:36 decides on guilt or innocence. So they've made their decision. The judge will then decide
02:40 on the punishment and Judge Juan Marciano has set a sentencing date for July 11th. We'll
02:45 see what that could be. That could be prison time. Most legal experts say that that's probably
02:50 not likely. Maybe it's more going to be probation. But we can say Donald Trump is a convicted
02:55 felon at this point in time. And he's also the presumptive Republican nominee in the
02:59 upcoming election.
03:00 As you said earlier, unprecedented.
03:03 Yeah.
03:04 Unprecedented. Monty Francis, thank you for the moment. Let's bring in Frederick T. Davis,
03:08 the former federal prosecutor. Fred is also a lawyer in New York and in Paris. Fred, always
03:13 a pleasure to have you on the program. Thank you for being with us. As Monty was just saying,
03:17 this is an unprecedented moment. Can I get your thoughts first, though, on the post that
03:23 Donald Trump just made online saying that he's a political prisoner? Now, here on this
03:27 channel we report about political prisoners. They're usually behind bars somewhere. Donald
03:32 Trump tonight is a free man. He's walked free from the court.
03:35 Yes. He's this is look, this is a man who has said that the election in 2016 was rigged,
03:42 even though he won it. The election of 2020 was rigged, which he lost. And he's already
03:46 said that the election of 2024, which hasn't happened yet, is rigged. I mean, he he his
03:51 basic view is, as you've already said, on the air, everybody is at fault except for
03:56 himself. And so he's he knows no limits as far as I can see in terms of the you know,
04:02 the verbiage and the language he uses to describe this. So it's just beginning. He's going to
04:08 try to raise funds. We've already seen the right wing press are closing ranks around
04:12 him and he's going to do as much as he can, which he's done pretty successfully so far
04:19 at using this kind of thing to confirm his support.
04:24 As your title says, professor of law at Columbia, also former federal prosecutor and lawyer
04:29 in New York and Paris. You know the law, sir. And that's why we call upon you. What does
04:34 Trump do next legally?
04:36 Well, the next thing that happens is that there will be a sentencing set for July 11.
04:42 There's a process for that. He will be interviewed by a service that then does a report. The
04:48 prosecutor will weigh in with his recommendation as to the sentence. And he, of course, can
04:54 be heard. Members of the public might actually ask to be heard on the sentence. My own view,
05:00 which I think has already been reflected in this program, is that he will not be sentenced
05:03 to prison. It'll be very interesting to see if the prosecutor seeks his imprisonment.
05:08 I really don't know whether he will or not. So that'll take place on July 11, unless it's
05:13 postponed. And then he gets an appeal and an appeal, unlike a French case, is not a
05:20 second trial. It really is a question of was this trial fair? Were the instructions of
05:25 the jury accurate? Were the rulings on the evidence accurate? And on that, I think that
05:31 the prosecutor's in very good shape. This judge tried a really, really careful trial.
05:37 I think he maintained absolute decorum in the courtroom. And I'm not aware of a single
05:42 ruling of his that struck me as particularly vulnerable to an appeal.
05:46 Fred, bear with me a second, please. We'll come back to you as soon as we can. We're
05:49 going to go to Washington to David Smith, who's the Bureau Chief for The Guardian newspaper
05:54 in the US Capitol. David, of course, has been following the story from day one to David.
05:58 Thanks for being with us here on France 24. We always appreciate your time. And I know
06:01 you're busy, so I won't keep you for too long. Give us a sense, David, of what this means
06:05 for Trump going forward politically.
06:07 Yeah, it's obviously a historic day. First time ever a former US president's had a criminal
06:14 conviction. And really, America joining those democracies, who sent a message that no one
06:20 is above the law and former political leaders can be held accountable. And Washington's
06:26 been fixated for weeks on, as you say, the political meaning of this trial. Certainly,
06:31 historians care a great deal about it. Journalists have been all over it. I think late night comedians
06:37 will have a field day. Does it actually matter to the voters? And there's plenty of evidence
06:43 that there are millions of voters out there who don't really care about this. Remember,
06:48 the trial was not televised live, like some of the famous cases, such as OJ Simpson or
06:54 Oscar Pistorius in South Africa. And I think that dulled the impact a bit. You didn't have
06:58 that same drama and spectacle. Just anecdotally, while I'm out interviewing voters, some say
07:05 they don't really care. They're not following it that closely. And as you say, that's especially
07:09 true of Donald Trump's core supporters. I just don't think they are going to be moved
07:15 by this. They buy into his rhetoric that this is politically motivated and the state is
07:20 weaponized against him. All of that said, I think we also should remember, though, that
07:26 presidential elections in America are extremely close these days. In 2016, in the Electoral
07:32 College, Trump won by about 78,000 votes in three states. Four years later, Joe Biden
07:38 won by an even smaller margin in swing states. So really, everything matters. Gaza matters,
07:44 the economy, abortion. And so I think this could have an impact on some independent voters.
07:51 And the opinion polls suggest that while the majority of Americans are not going to shift
07:56 on this, certainly there are some in the middle, some on the margins, who just feel uneasy
08:03 about voting to elect a convicted criminal to the White House.
08:08 David I'll pause you there. And if you can stay with us, please do. David Smith of The
08:12 Guardian newspaper, the bureau chief in Washington. I've got Monty Francis in the studio, Frederick
08:16 T. Davis, of course, joining us via Skype link. Monty, can you give us more reaction
08:21 on the situation? You spoke earlier about Joe Biden's response.
08:24 Yes. So the Biden camp is saying no one is above the law. The White House is saying we
08:28 respect the rule of law. We have no further comment. So they're not really going into
08:32 too much detail there. I think I mentioned earlier the Manhattan D.A., Alvin Bragg, has
08:37 scheduled a news conference for 6.30 p.m. in New York. That's 12.30 a.m. here in Paris.
08:44 One of the things I was thinking about as David was speaking there was Trump had said
08:48 in his comments, the real verdict is on November 5th. And this kind of runs into the theory
08:56 or goes on with a theory of him of him running to sort of escape his legal woes. And I've
09:02 heard this question come up before. And maybe one of our legal experts can answer this.
09:05 Can Trump pardon himself? I believe because this is a state case, not a federal case.
09:11 He couldn't do that. I think it's also an open legal question whether a president can
09:15 pardon himself in the first place. But, you know, I think the assumption here is that
09:20 Donald Trump will be a convicted felon going forward.
09:23 Monty, let me pause you and let's put that question to Frederick T. Davis, legal expert
09:27 who is waiting to come back in and speak to us. Fred, I don't know whether you heard what
09:30 Monty said. Can Trump pardon himself? Should he be elected in November?
09:36 In this case, he certainly cannot. The pardon power under the Constitution applies only
09:41 to federal convictions, federal criminal matters. And this is a state matter. So he can't do
09:46 it. And as your colleague said, we just don't know, even in a federal case, whether someone
09:50 can pardon oneself just because it's so absurd. It's never happened and it shouldn't happen.
09:56 But if he is convicted on one of the two remaining cases, two of which are federal, that could
10:01 come up.
10:02 Indeed, we are in a situation, though, Fred, where I think it's fair to say unprecedented
10:07 is a word that describes it very well. And it does seem it's bordering on the ridiculous
10:11 how this is being done. Trump comes out of court. He immediately calls the judge corrupt.
10:16 He then lays into everybody. He says the whole world has gone to hell. And he says this has
10:20 been very divisive. But some would say Trump is the most divisive figure in the U.S. today.
10:26 Oh, he absolutely is. What's really going on here is there's so many things happening
10:30 at once. But one thing, keep in mind, a constant theme of Trump's participation in our body
10:36 polity here is to say you can't trust anything. The system is rigged. You know, the elections
10:42 are rigged. Everything's rigged, including the judicial system. And as a lawyer and as
10:47 a former prosecutor and as a citizen, you know, I hope that the opposite of that is
10:54 becoming apparent. This judge tried a very, very, very careful case. The prosecutor delayed
11:01 bringing it just to make sure he had all of the necessary proof. This was a system that
11:06 worked rather remarkably. And to me, you know, the issue of whether Trump is elected, of
11:11 course, is very, very important. But long term, it's also very important to see whether
11:16 you know the people of the United States continue to believe in their institutions. I hope they
11:21 do. Because Trump was very clear outside the court, Fred, was he not. He called the judge
11:27 corrupt. He said this was a rigged, disgraceful trial. Yeah, that's his constant theme. And
11:34 as we've said before, he knows no limits. This judge is not corrupt. There's a transparency
11:41 to this system. There will be an appeal. Trump had the opportunity to testify and didn't
11:47 do it. I mean, I think that's clearly his legal right. It's interesting to me to see
11:53 whether he'll pay politically for that. It is a bit odd for him to say this whole thing
11:58 is made up and, you know, I barely met the lady, but he didn't say so under oath and
12:03 was too scared to do so. But the real issue is here is, is the system working? I think
12:09 it did. Fred, bear with us, please. Frederick T. Davis, former federal prosecutor, lawyer
12:14 in New York and Paris and law professor at Columbia. Let's go back to David Smith, the
12:20 Guardian's bureau chief in Washington. David, as a journalist, a journalist, what a story
12:26 to cover. It's had everything, hasn't it? Former president up on criminal charges. First
12:31 time ever we've had a former adult film actress. We've had a former Playboy bunny. You couldn't
12:36 make this up, could you? This is a remarkable story to cover. I feel like everything you've
12:41 said really sums up the entire Donald Trump era from the beginning. It does defy the imagination
12:48 of novelists and others. To an Australian point, just as we've been on air, I got a
12:53 message from one of my editors saying, you know, what a time to be alive. This has been
12:59 an incredible political era in America. Very exciting for journalists and very dark for
13:07 many people because of who Trump is and what he's done. This, of course, the man who famously
13:15 said I think in 2016 he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose any voters. And
13:23 there has been that theme that he's an incredibly lucky politician surviving scandal after scandal.
13:31 And these things just seem to bounce off him. Today is interesting, important as a moment
13:38 of reckoning where, as your guest was saying, that the system has worked and Trump finally
13:43 was held to account. At his rallies, he perhaps jokingly, maybe far jokingly, sort of talks
13:52 about what would his mother and father have thought about him being in court facing criminal
13:58 charges, now a criminal conviction. I think this will weigh on him. You saw his demeanor
14:04 coming out of court, the way he was frowning darkly. This is a big blow to him. And yet,
14:12 of course, what we what we don't know is whether having lost in the court of law, will he go
14:19 on to lose in the court of public opinion? He may yet, extraordinarily, to your point
14:26 about how you couldn't make this up. You may yet go on to win back the White House, which
14:32 is something historians would then talk about hundreds of years from now that such a thing
14:39 could happen. And even in the near future in July, he's due to be sentenced on the 11th
14:44 of July. And just a few days later, we'll have the Republican National Convention in
14:50 Milwaukee. That will be a coronation of Trump as the presidential nominee, now the first
14:56 presidential nominee in history to have a criminal conviction. And certainly you will
15:01 see Republicans there, as you already doing the last few minutes, rallying around him.
15:06 My email inbox here is full of messages from senators denouncing this as a miscarriage
15:11 of justice, you know, confidently predicting that Trump will be acquitted on appeal. And
15:18 you'll hear a lot more of that from right wing media as well. It's worth remembering
15:22 this verdict is coming in a very divided nation where there are plenty of commentators saying
15:28 that Trump is the victim and the martyr here. Indeed, Trump making that remark as he came
15:33 out of the court that the country has gone to hell, his words. It's a divided mess. Some
15:38 people will point the finger at Trump and say that he's in many ways responsible for
15:43 what is going on. However, someone who is riding that situation to his advantage.
15:50 Yes, I think many would regard him as the most divisive American president, certainly
15:56 in modern times. Remember, when he first launched his campaign in 2015, he talked about the
16:05 border and immigrants described Mexicans as criminals and rapists and so on. And that
16:13 demonization of the other has really set the tone for the years that followed. Of course,
16:20 have the white supremacist march in Charlottesville, where there were civil rights protesters.
16:26 He praised very fine people on both sides. If you think about his rhetoric towards the
16:33 media, the enemy of the people and so on, so much of his political career has been about
16:40 divisiveness. And sadly, I think that has been the story of this past decade in America,
16:48 political tribalism and polarization. You see that now in Congress, where there's far
16:56 less gets done. It's far less overlap between Democrats and Republicans. And time and time
17:04 again, the Trump criminal verdicts, the impeachments, all the other scandals. There's this immediate
17:11 default where Democrats denounce him and Republicans rush to defend him. And as I say, already
17:17 in the aftermath of this verdict, you're seeing a similar pattern. There's sorting by class
17:24 and race and geography in America. It is a very divided nation. Certainly you hear analysts
17:32 say maybe Donald Trump is not the sole cause of that, but he has certainly been an accelerant.
17:37 David, I'll get more from you in a second. Let's just remind people and tell people who
17:41 may just be joining us. Donald Trump convicted on all 34 counts in the hush money trial.
17:48 He said outside the court, it was a real disgraceful trial. He said that he's a very innocent man.
17:53 He blamed that by the administration. He said it's a disgrace and the country's gone to
17:57 hell. It's a divided mess. The jury wasn't divided. They were unanimous. Trump convicted
18:02 on all 34 charges against him. We'll get more from our guests and from Monty here in the
18:08 studio after hearing from some voices outside the court, reactions from people in the street
18:15 to the news that Donald Trump is now a convicted felon.
18:20 I don't know what to say. I did not think that this was actually going to happen. And
18:25 I just, I can't believe it. It's about time he was held accountable for something. I can't
18:30 believe it. It's amazing.
18:33 Man, I don't think that's really true. I mean, I don't know all the details about his case,
18:38 but I truly think he didn't did it. Didn't do it. My fault. Free Trump. Free Trump. And
18:45 I just want to see the truth come out. And I just want to see the true stories.
18:50 Only two voices, but two voices split with their opinions and maybe indicative, Monty,
18:55 about how the US, as David Smith was just testifying to us there, is a split country.
19:01 Donald Trump in many ways has taken advantage of the split, riding the chaos in some ways,
19:05 and clearly taking advantage of that. His tactic seems to be to blame everybody but
19:10 himself for what has gone on and to raise doubt about the process, the institutions
19:16 that make up the United States, whether it's the electoral system or the legal system.
19:20 It's never, ever his fault. It's always a fault of something else.
19:22 I think that is a really excellent point, Mark. I mean, it's not just Trump, though,
19:28 that is calling the legitimacy of the judicial system into question or the courts, the electoral
19:33 system, the whole Republican Party, really. I mean, you saw Speaker of the House Mike
19:38 Johnson today in reaction to this verdict calling this a shameful day in US history.
19:42 He was in court, you know, supporting Trump, third in line to the presidency, and is really
19:48 calling the legitimacy of the proceedings into question. What does this say for institutions
19:53 when you have party members who are buying into Trump's false claims that the 2020 election
20:00 was stolen? You have to do so or you'll be ejected like Liz Cheney from the Republican
20:05 Party. We'll really just have to see how this plays out for him politically. I think no
20:11 one knows the answer to that question.
20:13 Monty, thank you. Let's go back to Frederick T. Davis. Frederick is a federal prosecutor,
20:17 former federal prosecutor, currently law professor at Columbia, an august organisation indeed,
20:23 and a lawyer in New York and Paris. A frequent guest here, Fred. It's always a pleasure to
20:27 get your very measured view on these things. From your perspective, what does this mean
20:33 for Donald Trump now?
20:35 Well, we don't know. Look, politically, this is such a weird situation because if anybody
20:42 who had a sense of shame or anybody living in what I think of as a real world, and that's
20:47 – you know, this would be devastating. But he has this amazing ability to turn devastating
20:54 events to his advantage. He's been doing that, you know, ever since he started into politics.
20:59 You know, there's some curious things. Will he be allowed to vote for himself? I don't
21:04 really know New York election law, but in many states if you're a convicted felon,
21:09 you can't vote. I believe it to be the case that he would not be allowed to sit on a board
21:14 of publicly held corporations because you can't have felons on boards. He can run for
21:20 the president. He can be elected. And, you know, we just don't know where all this is
21:27 going to lead. Ultimately, the issue will be decided, as he says, and I agree with him
21:32 on this. This will be decided on November 5th, one way or the other. He will be the
21:37 nominee and, you know, the American people have to look at this situation and make their
21:45 decision. It's ultimately their decision more than these jurors' decisions that are
21:50 going to make the difference. That said, this is an amazing verdict and an extremely well-presented
21:55 case, extremely well-managed case. And it's part of the evolving story. And we'll see
22:03 where the next steps take us. We have a long way to go.
22:06 What do you think his punishment will be, Fred?
22:08 I think he will not get prison. I think he faced a risk of prison, very frankly, if he
22:14 had elected to testify, which under our system is his right to choose to testify or not.
22:20 If he had testified and had been perceived by this judge as lying under oath, I think
22:26 under those circumstances, he faced a real risk of being sent away. And I guess one of
22:32 the reasons he didn't do it. I think for this circumstance, given the sort of unusual,
22:38 somewhat technical nature of the crimes he's been convicted of, he will not get sent to
22:43 prison. He'll have a fine, which, of course, to him is not terribly important.
22:50 From my experience of reporting courts, judges don't have a very, well, they have a very
22:56 dim view of someone who's in contempt of court. Trump was, of course, in contempt of court
23:01 some 10 times during this trial. I mean, I'm left asking the same question. How does he
23:06 get away with it?
23:07 Well, he gets away with it just because we have a system that favors the defense. He's
23:13 presumed innocent until an hour and a half ago. And, you know, this judge really gave
23:20 him a fair amount of slacks, a fair amount of freedom, at the same time showing and telling
23:27 him, don't push me too far, Mr. Trump. But Trump is like a little boy. He's like little
23:33 kids we all grew up with who every time they're faced with authority, he has a really good
23:38 sense of this. Well, push, push, push to see how much you can get away with. I think even
23:42 Trump at some point realized this judge, I really do risk being sent away to prison for
23:49 contempt. And so it's kind of a standoff in that sense. I don't think he'll be sentenced
23:55 to prison for this conviction.
23:57 Fred, star witness Michael Cohen says that Trump's verdict was an important day for the
24:03 rule of law. Can I get your thoughts on that?
24:06 I'm not sure if I want to be, show up as agreeing with Michael Cohen on that too much. But he's
24:12 right. I mean, look, this was a well-presented case. A number of us has followed this. I'm
24:18 a trialer. I love trials. And I learned things in the sense that, for example, calling Michael
24:24 Pecker as the very first witness was brilliantly thought through and brilliantly done. Here's
24:29 a guy who likes Trump. And he communicated Trump is my buddy and didn't go out of his
24:35 way to stick it to him. And yet he laid down a devastating, devastating narrative of how
24:41 the two of them and others, including Cohen, you know, sat around a table and said, how
24:46 can we manipulate the news to help Trump get elected? That's devastating stuff. And it
24:54 all came out. So I agree with Michael Cohen. I mean, you know, the facts got presented
24:58 in a very, very good way. We don't know who the jurors are. A number of people have commented
25:04 that they really paid attention. They're very respectful of everybody in the court. This
25:10 is the way it's supposed to work. And I agree. It's a moment of triumph for the judicial
25:15 system of the state of New York.
25:17 Jury of five women, seven men. My colleague Monty told me that earlier in our coverage.
25:23 The slack that you talk about, Frederick, that the judge cut for Trump, was that part
25:28 of actually him trying to show that this is a fairer trial as we can make it? We are actually
25:34 giving this man a bit of indulgence in expressing his anger and his ire against the system.
25:40 But it will be judged and deliberated upon by a jury and the verdict will be held.
25:46 Yeah, what the judge did is, and judges vary all over the lot. My wife used to be a judge
25:51 on that very court. So I've seen this up close. Judges vary in how they maintain the dignity
25:59 of the courthouse and the courtroom. I think more than anything else, they do it by being
26:04 very careful, very unemotional themselves, very careful and disciplined. And Judge Mershon
26:10 was entirely that way. And I think he had to, as he put it, indulge Trump to some degree.
26:16 He is an accused defendant. He benefits from the presumption of innocence. And, you know,
26:22 we should tolerate a certain amount of flexibility for them. And yet he made it very clear there
26:27 are lines here. He made rulings on the admissibility of evidence, which is crucial to the role
26:33 of a judge. And that's what judges are supposed to do. And he did it, in my opinion.
26:38 Frederic T. Davis, for now, bear with us, please. Let's take a listen to our correspondent
26:43 who was covering the verdict as it was delivered. She is Pamela Fogg. She joined us a little
26:49 earlier. This is what she told us from outside the court where Trump was convicted on all
26:53 34 charges against him.
26:56 Well, first of all, you can hear around me the helicopters were immediately dispatched.
27:04 Thousands of police are walking around. And the security is enormous around the courtroom,
27:10 as you can hear some protesters calling out for Trump, some protesters joyfully celebrating
27:19 the verdict. Just now, the court gave a verdict, Donald Trump is guilty of 34 counts, 34 felonies,
27:30 each of which could carry a one-year, five-year term, excuse me, I'm sorry, a six-year term.
27:38 But the judge has already indicated he doesn't think he will have any jail time. Nonetheless,
27:47 the judge did allow Trump to leave the courtroom without posting any bond. And the sentencing
27:54 will be in six weeks' time.
27:56 This was an enormously fast jury decision, a verdict, with such a complicated case. You
28:04 heard the jury come in and ask questions, try to get the instructions straight. And
28:10 then, in the second day of deliberations, delivered a verdict on all counts, guilty
28:15 as charged.
28:18 Palmer Falk, our correspondent there outside the court. But Donald Trump has been convicted
28:21 on all 34 counts in the Hush Money trial. We'll have more after a short break.
28:25 And we'll be right back.