As Ireland, Spain and Norway recognise the State of Palestine in order to breathe new life into the two state solution, Shona Murray spoke to Irish Prime Minister Simon Harris about this historic move, for the Global Conversation.
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00:00 As Ireland, Spain and Norway recognise the state of Palestine in order to breathe new
00:04 life into the two-state solution, my guest on The Global Conversation is Irish Prime
00:09 Minister Antitiak Simon Harris. We discuss how Ireland sees this as the best option to
00:14 offer hope to Palestinians in their darkest hour and offer long-term security and prosperity
00:20 to Israel. That's The Global Conversation on Euronews.
00:26 So Antitiak, thank you very much for joining us on The Global Conversation on Euronews.
00:31 Tell us why the recognition of Palestine?
00:34 Quite frankly because we must keep the hope, the dream and the destination of a two-state
00:38 solution alive at a time when sadly others are working to undermine that. We believe
00:43 and Ireland has believed for many, many years that the way you bring peace and stability
00:48 to the Middle East is the recognition of a two-state solution. It's very hard to bring
00:53 about a two-state solution if you don't recognise the existence of two states. Ireland would
00:57 have much preferred to have done this as part of a peace process. Indeed that was what our
01:01 programme for government had originally intended to do. But we can't wait forever. It's an
01:06 awful long time, many decades since the Oslo Accords. Now more than ever we need to speak
01:11 up and speak out about the importance of a two-state solution because that is ultimately
01:16 what provides the people of Israel, the people of Palestine and the broader region with the
01:20 stability and the peace that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve. We've worked extensively
01:26 with European counterparts. We've obviously moved in lockstep with Norway and with Spain
01:30 and I also expect in the coming weeks other European countries to also recognise Palestine.
01:35 And when you say others are seeking to undermine it, who are you talking about?
01:38 Well I don't think the Netanyahu government is in any way, shape or form committed to
01:41 the delivery of a two-state solution. We've heard much rhetoric and commentary in relation
01:46 to that. A two-state solution had been I think the widespread consensus that had emerged
01:53 over many, many years about the need for a two-state solution. I think in recent weeks
01:57 and recent months we have seen very many efforts to kill off that hope. But also we do need
02:01 to, we make the decision to recognise Palestine on the merits of the decision. But I'm also
02:06 particularly conscious that we make it at a time when there's an incredible, unconscionable
02:11 humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in real time in Gaza. A scale of humanitarian catastrophe
02:17 that I don't think yet we even comprehend and therefore it is so important that we empower
02:23 moderate voices, both in Palestine and both in Israel. Because there's a lot of rhetoric,
02:28 there's a lot of intentional misrepresentation of what Ireland and others do in recognising
02:33 Palestine. It's not about Hamas. We abhor Hamas, they're a terrorist organisation. They
02:38 offer nothing to the Palestinian people in terms of a future. They are a danger and a
02:43 threat to Israelis and to the Palestinian people. What happened on the 7th of October
02:46 was a despicable, disgusting terrorist massacre. All hostages should be released unconditionally.
02:52 But Irish people know better than most what it's like to have a terrorist organisation
02:56 in many ways hijack your identity. Hamas is not Palestine and we're able to differentiate
03:01 between the two. Israel is saying however this does play into the hands of Hamas because
03:06 it comes in response they would say to October 7th. And we obviously don't accept that at
03:14 all. I believe we recognise fully in the state of Israel. We recognise their right to live
03:19 in peace and security and it's perfectly acceptable to say that and also say that there is a state
03:24 of Palestine and we recognise their need to live in peace and security. We have to try
03:30 and break what has been generational cycles of resentment, of hatred, of retaliation,
03:36 of death, of misery, of fear. And the way to do that is to recognise very clearly that
03:40 a political peace process is needed and that means to recognise that there are two states.
03:44 So to our friends in Israel, to the Israeli people who cannot also be defined by the decisions
03:50 of the leadership of their government. What we say to them is we want you to be able to
03:54 live in peace and security. And I believe there are many, many people in Israel, many,
03:58 many people in Palestine, many parents in both countries, in both states who want their
04:02 children to be able to grow up in a safe, secure country and region. And that's what
04:08 we're trying to help bring about by saying with other countries, we believe there's a
04:12 political way of advancing this and it is a two state solution.
04:15 What is your response to certain EU countries and Ireland's allies in the United States
04:20 criticising the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court for some
04:26 of the criticisms and cases it's taking against Israel and Hamas?
04:31 Look, I recognise any country's right to vocalise their views in relation to any issue. From
04:36 an Irish perspective though, I think it's very important we respect the independence
04:40 of these international court structures. I believe they serve the world well. I believe
04:44 they are important and I certainly, for my part, don't wish to provide any kind of running
04:49 commentary on the independence of the decisions that they reach and indeed must reach in the
04:53 days, weeks and months ahead.
04:56 But doesn't it show that deep divisions in the European Union and potentially weaken
05:00 the EU on the global stage where we haven't been able to have a cohesive position for
05:05 a long time on the situation in Gaza?
05:07 I think that is really regrettable. I mean, I understand the context and I understand
05:11 the perspectives that different countries bring to the table, even if I fundamentally
05:14 disagree with some of them. But I do think we had an important moment in April where
05:18 at the European Council, the first European Council I had the honour of attending as Taoiseach,
05:22 we did see conclusions reached that did call for an immediate ceasefire. That was a move
05:26 from phrases like humanitarian pause. So I now believe that the Irish position in terms
05:32 of an immediate ceasefire, ensuring that humanitarian aid can flow and getting into a political
05:37 process, I believe that is fast becoming the mainstream opinion in Europe. But we've also
05:41 got to be honest, there have been a variety of opinions around the European tables on
05:45 this matter.
05:46 But do you believe that the EU has done enough to uphold international law? The EU is nothing
05:50 if not a rules-based system. And we see even, for example, civil servants from the European
05:56 Union calling for the Commission to do more to criticise what's happening in Gaza alongside
06:01 the way they criticise what's happening in Russia or in Ukraine.
06:04 I believe more can be done and should be done. And I vocalised this at every possible opportunity
06:08 with European counterparts, with the President of the Commission, at the European Council.
06:12 And what I mean by that is specifically the association agreement between the European
06:16 Union and Israel. That has within it human rights clauses. And they weren't put in to
06:20 make the document longer. They weren't put in as padding. They have real effect. They
06:24 are real and meaningful words and they are part of an agreement between Israel and the
06:28 European Union. And I don't understand, being quite frank, I don't understand why the review,
06:34 simply asking to review the agreement from a human rights perspective hasn't taken place.
06:38 I think that's regrettable. And I will continue to advocate on behalf of Ireland every single
06:41 day that that should happen.
06:43 My predecessor and the Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez signed a letter to that effect
06:47 and that letter still stands as the Irish position today.
06:50 But of course some Member States would say from a historical perspective they don't feel
06:55 comfortable criticising Israel, particularly Germany obviously.
06:58 So I think we have to be really careful that this isn't about... the side we should all
07:03 be on here is international law and human rights. And that's the Irish perspective.
07:05 And it often gets misrepresented either accidentally or intentionally by others. It's not about
07:10 being pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. It's about being pro-international law. It's about
07:14 being pro-human rights. It's about being pro-peace. And I think what's happening in Gaza is unconscionable.
07:20 And there will be a moment in the future where your children and your grandchildren and your
07:23 great-grandchildren will ask, "What did you do? What did you do and did you do enough?"
07:29 And that should keep every single one of us awake at night. Because there are children
07:32 in Gaza, there are children in Rafa, who go to sleep at night not knowing if they're awake.
07:37 And if we believe in peace, if we believe in a ceasefire, and I fundamentally believe
07:42 we do, and that is the conclusions of the European Council of April, we have to challenge
07:46 ourselves and ask ourselves one very simple question. Are we doing everything we possibly
07:50 can to create the environment to bring that ceasefire about?
07:53 Who are your partners then in this Palestinian state? Because obviously you've talked about
07:57 the fact that it's very important to be on the right side of history, to breathe life
08:00 into the two-state solution. But what practical implications is this going to make?
08:05 So I think this does matter on a practical and a legal basis. What it means in a very
08:11 kind of practical basis is that the representation from Palestine here in Ireland, instead of
08:15 being a representative office, can now apply in due course to become an embassy. Similarly,
08:20 our own representation in Ramallah can do likewise.
08:25 But it's about more than that. It's about political and moral leadership. It's about
08:28 saying to other countries in the European Union, whom I know are considering this, you
08:33 too can do this. I was very eager that we would move in lockstep with other countries.
08:37 I think the three countries that have moved to recognise the state of Palestine, Spain,
08:42 Norway and Ireland, are three countries that have a long track record in terms of a commitment
08:47 to peace in the Middle East. I think that is an important grouping of countries for
08:51 that reason.
08:52 But let's say Hamas then were to make up a new government within the Palestinian Authority
08:56 in the future if there were elections, because some people do support Hamas.
09:00 Yes, well I fundamentally oppose Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. It should be
09:05 called out for such the atrocity that they committed on the 7th of October. The magnitude
09:10 of that is hard to find the words. We should never, this conversation about the recognition
09:15 of Palestine, jump over that point. What they did to the people of Israel was despicable,
09:20 was brutal. The hostage taking to this day is added cruelty on top of that massacre and
09:27 terrorist attack that the people of Israel experienced. Those hostages should be released
09:30 unconditionally. Democratic elections need to take place in all countries. We are believers
09:36 in democracy and obviously the outcome of democratic elections decide people's governments.
09:40 But there is no future for the Palestinian people with Hamas. I think what we are trying
09:44 to do here is empower moderate voices. We had this in our own country and I think this
09:48 is important for perhaps viewers from outside of Ireland to understand. We had a terrorist
09:53 organisation in this country of Ireland that tried on occasion to hijack our flag and tried
09:58 to suggest it spoke for the people and they didn't. The ultimate way we saw peace in this
10:02 republic was through a peace process which has brought us to a very successful place
10:07 today. Just before I move on, because moderate Israelis who accept that there should be a
10:11 two state solution would still say that they are concerned that if there is a Palestinian
10:16 state, no matter your best efforts and the best will, you could still have a Hamas led
10:23 government which would indeed threaten the viability of Israel's security. That is absolutely
10:28 why we need to have a political peace process and it's why countries across the world, including
10:32 Ireland, must stand ready to assist that process. But we can't get to that process until there
10:36 is a cessation of violence. So the violence needs to stop, the humanitarian catastrophe
10:40 needs to be brought to an end, the aid needs to flow and then a political peace process
10:44 needs to be brought about. As part of that political peace process, the security of Israel
10:48 is absolutely vital. Absolutely vital. And I said this very clearly when we recognised
10:53 the state of Palestine this week. Very, very clearly. The people of Israel have a right
10:57 to live in peace and security. The people of Palestine have a right to live in peace
11:01 and security. And the global community has a right to support and assist in arriving
11:05 at a peace process that secures that for both states. Again, in Ireland, we've seen the
11:10 benefit over many years of global participation and assistance, be it from the European Union
11:15 and from the United States, in a peace process. And I've no doubt that the European Union,
11:19 the US and others would stand ready to assist in that. So absolutely, we take the issue
11:23 of security of Israel and the Israeli people extraordinarily important. But what's happening
11:28 now has to stop. I mean, the idea that's what's happening now is sustainable, or indeed in
11:32 any way guarantees Israel's security, is such a misplaced view. It is a dead end in every
11:40 sense of the word. If you want to bring peace, we have to get into a political peace process
11:45 that recognises two states. There have been many times and many false dawns in the past.
11:49 But out of this most horrific scenario, horrific terrorist attack for Israel, most horrific
11:54 humanitarian catastrophe for the people of Palestine, has to ultimately become a moment
11:59 where we can move towards peace. The only way you ultimately bring about peace in any
12:02 region is through a political process.
12:05 One of the political groupings in the European Parliament is the EPP, of which you're a member,
12:09 which doesn't have a very strong support of Palestine. But in one of the issues, we see
12:14 the EPP moving to the right. Ursula von der Leyen is saying that she could potentially
12:19 do business with the ECR, for example, which has far-right groups within it. They could
12:25 easily align themselves with the ID group, which is extreme hard right. Are you worried
12:30 about the direction the EPP could potentially go at the end of this European Parliament
12:34 election?
12:35 Well, I'm definitely worried about the rise of the far-right across the European Union.
12:40 I'm worried about elements that we see in relation to the far-right here in Ireland.
12:43 That's why I believe it's really important that centrists get out and try to win as many
12:48 votes and convince as many people in the run-up to the European elections, because I do believe
12:52 the centre needs to hold now more than ever, both here in Ireland and indeed in the European
12:59 Union. I don't wish to see any lurch to the right, and that's why I'm campaigning here
13:05 in Ireland to see Fine Gael MEPs elected. And similarly, I want to see EPP colleagues
13:12 do that right across the European Union, because the way you avoid any lurches from the centre
13:18 is to maximise the number of people that you elect from centrist parties.
13:22 Would you object to Ursula von der Leyen, therefore, if she has to do a deal to stay
13:27 in her position as President of the European Commission, for the EPP to hold that position,
13:31 would you object to her then working with the ECR and potentially the ID, but at least
13:35 the ECR?
13:36 Well, Ireland will make its views known post the election when we see the outcome of the
13:41 election, because we always have to respect the democratic outcomes of all elections.
13:44 But I know this, when I attend the European Council, the largest block of Prime Ministers,
13:48 by some distance, is EPP Prime Ministers. That provides us, I think, with a very important
13:54 starting point when we get to discussions post the June elections. But it does matter
14:00 who we elect to the European Parliament. I don't want to see a lurch to the right. I
14:04 believe the centre is where we need to be. But I do also believe, and I commend the EPP
14:09 for some of their work in relation to this, and we have some work here in Ireland to do
14:12 as well, the centre does need to be seen to deliver. And when you look at a number of
14:16 issues, I think where the centre allows a vacuum to emerge, particularly around migration
14:21 discourse, that vacuum does get filled and often exploited by elements of the far right.
14:26 That's not appropriate, it's not right, it's not leadership. And that's why I think it's
14:30 really important that the EPP at a European level, myself as the leader of Fine Gaeille,
14:35 a member of the EPP here in Ireland, needs to show our citizens that we get it in terms
14:41 of some of the questions that they ask around a rules-based system when it comes to migration.
14:45 And can I say this too, because this can get distorted at times. Migration and immigration
14:49 is a good thing. This country has benefited massively from immigration. Look at our health
14:53 service, look at so many parts of our economy. But also our citizens are saying to us, hang
14:56 on, can you show us the system's efficient? Can you show us it's effective? Can you show
14:59 us that it is rules-based? And I do think there is a need for all centrists, politicians,
15:05 prime ministers, Taoiseach like myself, to show the public that we do get that and we
15:08 are delivering on that. I think that is the best way that you counter any lurch to the
15:12 extremes. But the problem is the EPP seems to be lurching in that direction in that the
15:17 process of potentially externalisation of processing of migrants, for example, that's
15:21 something that is comparable in some way to what the British are doing in Rwanda. Do you
15:26 agree with that? I don't think it is, because I think anything that the EPP does and wishes
15:31 to put forward, and certainly anything that Ireland will in any way participate in or
15:34 support has to be human rights compliant, has to be in compliance with the ECHR. And
15:39 we're very clear in relation to that. I mean, it's for Britain to decide its migration policy,
15:44 but I think it's a very, very far remove from some of the ideas being discussed in Europe.
15:48 Why do you think people are moving to the right? I mean, why do you think they're not
15:51 buying into the social Europe of the past, where at least there was a semblance of pursuing
15:59 workers' rights and so on? Well, firstly, let's see if they are, which is the first
16:03 point I think is worth considering. You know, opinion polls come and go, but actually opinion
16:08 polls here in Ireland at the moment in terms of the European elections suggest that the
16:11 centre may actually hold much better than expected. But let's see, we have a way to
16:14 go and campaigns matter and elections matter. I do think more broadly, we're living through
16:18 extraordinarily difficult times. The level of challenge that is being faced both externally
16:23 in terms of Ukraine, in terms of the Middle East, in terms of the migration crisis, the
16:26 inflationary crisis. I also think, though, centrist politicians, including myself, must
16:31 challenge ourselves to do better. The way you address the climate emergency isn't lecturing
16:35 people, it's bringing people with you. The way you address the climate emergency isn't
16:38 saying it's a choice between farmers or the planet. You have to be able to do both.
16:42 Do you find it regrettable, though, that the EPP has walked away from things like their
16:45 nature restoration law and the biodiversity laws? I mean, this was the champion of the
16:51 Green Deal, Ursula von der Leyen, and within three or four years, she's diminishing that,
16:56 potentially because she wants to work with the far right.
16:59 So it's not for me to speak for President von der Leyen, but I don't think that's a
17:02 fair characterisation of what she's doing. My MEPs in Fine Gael voted for the nature
17:06 restoration law. We were able to well show our independence of thought when it comes
17:10 to doing the right thing by the planet. And I do think it's important when process is
17:13 followed and this has been approved by the European Parliament, that matters, that counts,
17:17 that's democracy. So I'm not satisfied to see a situation where those things just get
17:21 parked in a lay-by somewhere in Brussels. That needs to be revisited. And at this stage,
17:24 it'll have to be revisited post the European elections. But I'm very convinced of President
17:30 von der Leyen's commitment to the Green Deal. I think she has invested a lot of energy,
17:35 time and leadership in that herself. But again, it is important, and we see this at a domestic
17:39 level in Ireland, it is important to show farmers, to show the agri-food sector that
17:44 Europe depends on, that actually there is a way of it continuing to exist and thrive
17:48 whilst also addressing the climate emergency. This straw man argument that you can do one
17:53 or the other, I think is what actually helps fuel extremism. We have to do both. We have
17:57 to help farmers transition, we have to support them, we have to listen to them, we have to
18:00 work with them and we have to save the planet because there's a climate emergency.
18:03 Just a final question on Ukraine, because geographically Ireland is far removed, but
18:07 obviously a member of the European Union and the European continent. In the last few months
18:13 we've seen the situation in Ukraine, in the east, in Avdiivka, in Kharkiv, really get
18:19 to a particularly bad point because of the lack of weapons, the lack of consistency when
18:23 it comes to military support. What will Ireland do in that regard? Because there is a recognition
18:29 this is probably a long war and Europe needs to support Ukraine. It may not have the support
18:34 of the United States. Tell me a little bit about how you see that going. Would you support,
18:38 for example, something like defence bonds?
18:41 So I'm not sure defence bonds are the way to go and there's many countries, including
18:45 those that provide military assistance to the Ukraine, that aren't sure in relation
18:48 to bonds. So my comments are separate to that broader debate around bonds. What Ireland
18:53 will continue to do is provide a range of humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, which
18:56 by the way really does matter too, but also very practical assistance in relation to demining
19:00 and in relation to cyber security and we're working with Ukraine on both issues at the
19:04 moment. I've had three conversations with President Zelensky since becoming Taoiseach,
19:07 I've had one conversation with the Prime Minister of Ukraine, I'm going to lead the
19:11 Irish delegation to the peace summit in Switzerland next month, which I think is an important
19:16 moment. I'm also working to appeal to as many countries as possible, particularly those
19:21 in the global south that Ireland has relations with, for them to send representation. Because
19:26 I think the peace summit is an important opportunity for the world or as much of the world as possible
19:30 to speak with one voice in terms of the next steps. The situation in Ukraine though is
19:35 extraordinarily concerning and I know this from conversations with European counterparts
19:40 and the issue around air defence is a real one, it's acute and it's urgent. I know there
19:47 are a number of European countries that are giving consideration to what more can be done
19:50 to assist Ukraine in a practical sense.
19:52 Okay, Prime Minister Antishek Simon Harris, thank you very much for joining us on The
19:56 Global Conversation.
19:57 [WHOOSH]