• 5 months ago
The House Homeland Security Committee holds a hearing on OSHA's new proposed fire brigade standards.

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Transcript
00:00:00Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration's proposed rulemaking
00:00:04to update and replace the current fire brigade standard. Without objection, the gentlemen from
00:00:09New York, Mr. Molinaro and Mr. Lawler are permitted to sit on the dais and ask questions to the
00:00:13witnesses. I now recognize myself for an opening statement. First, I'd like to welcome our
00:00:19witnesses and thank you all for your commitment to keeping not only our neighbors and residents,
00:00:26but this country safe. I want to thank you all for testifying before this Subcommittee on
00:00:30Emergency Management and Technology. And again, thank you for your public service. We look forward
00:00:36to hearing your diverse perspectives on the Occupational Safety and Health Administration's
00:00:40proposed rule to upgrade the fire brigade standard and its potential impact on firefighters
00:00:45throughout the nation. As the chairman of the Subcommittee on Emergency Management and Technology
00:00:50and also as a former chief of the Island Park Fire Department, I know firsthand that the fire
00:00:54brigade selflessly put the safety of their communities first, despite experiencing a
00:00:59multitude of risk while serving on the job. It is important that we mitigate unnecessary risks
00:01:04posed to our nation's firefighters. We must find a balanced approach that promotes firefighter
00:01:10safety, prevents regulatory burdens that ultimately make communities less safe. The
00:01:15Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 gave OSHA the authority to create, modify, or revoke
00:01:22work standards for private sector employers, the U.S. Postal Service, and the federal government.
00:01:28While state and local fire departments are excluded from OSHA enforcement if their state does
00:01:32not have an OSHA-approved plan in place, there are 27 states whose state and local fire departments
00:01:39are bound by OSHA's standard for fire brigades. The fire brigade believed that OSHA had the best
00:01:44intentions in this process. However, it has fallen short in producing an accurate picture of the fire
00:01:49service here in the United States. OSHA has failed to show the data or significant risk that supports
00:01:54many of the changes proposed. Both the fire service injuries and deaths are on a decline over the last
00:01:59several years, while at the same time the thresholds to be considered a line-of-duty death have been
00:02:04lured. The largest hurdle in all of this is the incorporated 22 NFPA standards to the rule.
00:02:11This takes a somewhat manageable rule from over 40 pages to over 3,000. The 1,500 shells and must
00:02:18make it overwhelming at best. Based on their incorporation, OSHA appears to be under the
00:02:22impression that current NFPA standards are being followed by agencies across the country. This
00:02:28simply is not the case. I work with thousands of departments across the U.S. and have yet to find
00:02:33one that comes close to meeting these in their entirety. In our opinion, OSHA has failed to
00:02:38follow the procedures and rules it is governed by. One could argue that the door has been left
00:02:42wide open for legal challenges should this proposed rule be adopted as written. This is
00:02:48neither our desire nor our intent. We are simply asking that the process be reopened, more transparent,
00:02:55better communicated, and the rule be rewritten using reliable data with the assistance of equal
00:03:00representation by those that it will affect. By working together, we can craft a rule that will
00:03:06not only be obtainable, will also do a better job in protecting those that risk their lives to save
00:03:12the lives of their communities. Thank you for allowing me to share a few concerns in this brief
00:03:17statement. We're not asking for this effort to go away or kicking a can down the road. We are simply
00:03:23asking for an appropriate seat at the table as we proceed to make firefighting safer for all of us
00:03:29in this country. Thank you, Mr. Denniston. I now recognize Chief Maruca for five minutes to
00:03:37summarize his opening statement. Good morning, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Carter,
00:03:48distinguished members of Congress. My name is Joe Maruca. I am a firefighter with over 45 years
00:03:53of experience and I am a director of the National Volunteer Fire Council. I recently retired as
00:04:00chief of the West Barnstable Massachusetts Fire Department, a combination fire department with
00:04:04five career firefighter paramedics and 45 volunteer firefighters on Cape Cod. The NVFC is
00:04:11the leading non-profit membership association representing the interests of the volunteer fire,
00:04:16EMS, and rescue services. We serve as the national voice for over 670,000 volunteer firefighters
00:04:24who comprise 65 percent of the nation's fire service. The NVFC appreciates OSHA's efforts
00:04:30to promote our mutual goal of ensuring firefighter safety with this proposed emergency response
00:04:36standard. However, if adopted as written, the standard would be economically infeasible for
00:04:42most volunteer fire departments to comply with and would cause many of these departments to shut down,
00:04:49therefore compromising the emergency response capabilities in many small towns,
00:04:54particularly those in rural areas. In addition to its economic infeasibility,
00:05:00this proposed standard would be problematic due to the incorporation by reference of industry
00:05:06standards, uncertainty about volunteer coverage, lack of staff expertise and availability to
00:05:13facilitate the implementation of these standards, and an unrealistic proposed timeline for
00:05:19implementation. For these reasons, the NVFC believes OSHA should exempt volunteer firefighters
00:05:26from the proposed standard. The NVFC is concerned that OSHA is unaware of the varied ways that
00:05:32volunteer fire departments are organized and therefore unaware of the extent that their
00:05:38proposed emergency response standard would impact the volunteer fire service, especially when it
00:05:44comes to how volunteer fire departments in many areas of the country are organized as non-profits
00:05:50and are unaffiliated with any municipality, and these could fall within the scope of the
00:05:55proposed standards regardless of what state they're in. Due to the diverse nature of the volunteer
00:06:00fire service, the NVFC believes it should not fall within the scope of OSHA's
00:06:06proposed emergency response standard. When it comes to evaluating the economic feasibility
00:06:12of OSHA's proposed standard, it's important to realize that 95 percent of volunteer firefighters
00:06:18serve populations of less than 25,000 people, and about half of volunteers serve in communities of
00:06:26fewer than 2,500 people. National needs assessments of the nation's fire service consistently show that
00:06:34volunteer fire departments in small and rural communities have the most difficulty affording
00:06:39up-to-date equipment and operations. In an NVFC department budget survey with 1,766 responses,
00:06:4928 percent said their department's budget is less than $75,000 per year. This happens to be the
00:06:56typical budget for an on-call volunteer fire department in a Massachusetts town of 2,500 or
00:07:02smaller people. Departments with this budget struggle to pay for fuel, supplies, and gear
00:07:08with the average cost of equipping a single firefighter with a bunker coat, bunker pants, and
00:07:13boots and a helmet being $4,600. OSHA estimates that the average cost of their proposed
00:07:20standard to be about $14,000 per volunteer fire department. When you have a $75,000 budget,
00:07:28that's a huge bite. It's economically infeasible to have small departments adhere to the same
00:07:34standard as a large suburban or urban community would. The main source of federal support to
00:07:41supplement these local fire departments is the assistance to firefighters grant and staffing
00:07:47for adequate fire and emergency response. Though AFG and SAFER have been successful, there's not
00:07:52enough funding available to address the needs of the fire service, especially if we have an economic
00:07:58burden added by OSHA. Since 2017, funding for AFG and SAFER has fallen by $81 million each.
00:08:07Last year, only 13 percent of funding requests were funded by AFG and SAFER. The NVFC urges
00:08:14Congress to pass the reauthorization of AFG and SAFER before their September 30 sunset
00:08:20and increase funding for these critically important grant programs. Contributing to
00:08:25the economic infeasibility are numbers of prohibitive requirements that are contained
00:08:29within the emergency response standard, including the incorporation by reference of 20 standards.
00:08:38I'm out of time, so I'm just going to say thank you very much. We thank the subcommittee for
00:08:43holding this important hearing and for the opportunity to testify about the needs of the
00:08:46volunteer fire service, and we thank Chair, or should I say Chief D'Esposito, for his years of
00:08:52service as a volunteer firefighter, and other members as well for their leadership on this issue.
00:08:58Thank you. Thank you, sir. I now recognize Mr. Davis for five minutes to summarize his opening
00:09:02statement. Good morning, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Carter, and members of the
00:09:06subcommittee. My name is Evan Davis, and I serve as Director of Government Affairs for the
00:09:10International Association of Firefighters. On behalf of General President Ed Kelly and our
00:09:14345,000 firefighters and EMS personnel, thank you for holding today's hearing to examine OSHA's
00:09:20proposed ERS. We can all agree that firefighting is a dangerous profession. Much more needs to be
00:09:25done to protect our firefighters. Each year, approximately 60,000 firefighters are injured
00:09:30on the job, and another 100 are killed. Together, these incidents have a cost of $3 billion per year,
00:09:36and that doesn't account for the lifelong pain, suffering, and losses in quality of life that
00:09:40accompany these injuries. Simply put, our reliance on consensus standards with no teeth and the good
00:09:45will of city administrators alone to protect us is literally killing us. Unlike nearly every
00:09:50other industry, firefighters have almost no enforceable workplace protections. Before the ERS,
00:09:55the best protection we had was a limited standard aimed at private fire brigades that hadn't been
00:10:00updated since Jimmy Carter was president. We applaud OSHA for answering our decades-old call
00:10:05to update these protections, and doing so in a manner that is almost unprecedented in its
00:10:09transparency, its commitment to stakeholder input, as evidenced by the repeated delays OSHA has
00:10:14already provided in the comment process. The ERS looks daunting, that's true, but the fact is it's
00:10:20based on common-sense standards that most fire departments are already practicing or are well
00:10:24on the way to doing so. The backbone of this document is an understanding that firefighters
00:10:28must be prepared for known hazards in their communities, fully trained and healthy, and
00:10:33equipped with safe vehicles and equipment. It's horrifically depressing to see how many line-of-duty
00:10:37injuries and deaths we have each year due to preventable circumstances. In 2009, a Boston
00:10:43ladder truck lost its brakes going down a hill, striking a building, killing one firefighter,
00:10:47and severely injuring three others. The fire truck had three prior instances of brake failure,
00:10:53including once on the exact same hill. Subsequent investigations found that the fire department
00:10:58had no preventative maintenance program and no fleet manager. If this happened in one of the
00:11:02largest cities in the country, what challenges are facing firefighters in their own districts?
00:11:07It's 2024, and we firmly believe we need to require fire trucks to have working brakes.
00:11:13Last year, two Newark, New Jersey, firefighters were killed on a shipboard fire.
00:11:17Newark often ran two-person firefighter crews and provided their firefighters with
00:11:21zero training in shipboard fire attack, despite being home to the fourth busiest port in the
00:11:25nation. Again, in the year 2024, how are we not preparing for known hazards like the fourth
00:11:31busiest port in the nation? I could go on about DoD firefighters falling through their station
00:11:36floors that are crumbling, firefighters dying from ladder trucks that are collapsing because
00:11:40the truck is decades old, and nine South Carolina firefighters dying on a single incident because
00:11:46there was no clear incident command and no effective standard operating procedures.
00:11:50Our industrial members work for private and EMS companies and are equally at risk.
00:11:54We applaud OSHA for expanding the ERS to include those personnel as well. We must continue to hold
00:12:00for-profit companies accountable when they prioritize profits over the safety and dignity
00:12:04of our members. The ERS is based on industry consensus standards that simply say we should
00:12:09be fully staffed and trained, we should be healthy and resourced to prevent our own suicides, and we
00:12:14should have safe fire stations. These recommendations came from a panel of fire service experts in 2014
00:12:21and all national fire service organizations sat at that table and developed those recommendations.
00:12:26The full NACOSH committee later adopted those proposals unanimously and that was the backbone
00:12:30and the basis for this document. Now we recognize the ERS does have a cost to it and quite candidly
00:12:36that challenge is a lot harder since Congress has slashed the AFG and SAFER grant programs by
00:12:4210% in the FY 24 appropriations bill and the continued inability to reauthorize these grant
00:12:47programs is an additional challenge. But let's be clear, money will be spent one way or the other.
00:12:52Agencies can invest in safety on the front end or they can pay extra billions of dollars in the
00:12:56back end for preventable injuries and deaths. For those cities and agencies and companies that say
00:13:01they've never had a serious injury and they can't afford to make the change, we say the data is
00:13:05clear. They haven't had a serious incident yet. If cities and municipalities and companies continue
00:13:11to ignore safety, their luck will run out and our members will be the ones that are forced to pay
00:13:16the price. But it's important to recognize two things can be true at the same time. This ERS
00:13:21can advance safety and some small agencies may have trouble implementing it. One positive aspect
00:13:27is that OSHA acknowledges genuine efforts by employers to improve safety and so jurisdictions
00:13:32simply writing off compliance altogether ignore the fact that OSHA does recognize good faith
00:13:36efforts to achieve compliance. Slow progress is better than no progress and we urge agencies to
00:13:41begin improving safety today. Lastly, I'd like to make it clear that these investments in our safety
00:13:47correlate directly with our ability to serve the public. The public rightfully expects that when
00:13:51they call 911, we will show up to their house ready and able to work. A fire department without
00:13:56healthy trained and equipped personnel is just giving their community a false sense of security
00:14:01that will go up in smoke. This ERS fundamentally supports the link between firefighter safety and
00:14:06public safety. Thank you again for holding this hearing and look forward to talking with you more
00:14:10about how we can fix the broken status quo. Thank you Mr. Davis. I now recognize Mr. Walker for
00:14:17five minutes to summarize his opening statement. Good morning Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member
00:14:23Carter and the members of this esteemed subcommittee. My name is Grant Walker. I'm the
00:14:27President of the Prince George's County Professional Firefighters and Paramedics Association,
00:14:31IAFF Local 1619, representing the 1,800 active and retired members of my association.
00:14:37Additionally, I currently serve as the Legislative Policy Chair for the Professional Firefighters of
00:14:41Maryland, representing the 10,000 IAFF members that reside within the state of Maryland.
00:14:46I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify on this critically important rulemaking.
00:14:51I started my fire service career shortly after graduating high school in 2004, where I moved
00:14:55into the College Park Volunteer Fire Department as part of the Prince George's County Fire and EMS
00:14:59system. While attending college, I worked full-time and had a regularly assigned shift at the volunteer
00:15:04firehouse, and I was not unique, as this program had been in place for many years prior to my
00:15:09arrival. I completed my undergraduate degree in fire science from the University of Maryland in
00:15:132009 and began working for the federal government as a firefighter at the National Institute of
00:15:17Standards and Technology. I would leave there in 2012 and regain my position in Prince George's
00:15:24County as a firefighter under employment. I currently hold the rank of lieutenant in that
00:15:29fire department. As a recent graduate of the Executive Fire Officer Program from the National
00:15:34Fire Academy in Emmitsburg, Maryland, it is critically important that we address this issue.
00:15:39Our nation's firefighters are facing a crisis of massive proportion. Not a day goes by where a
00:15:44firefighter doesn't experience a lack of staffing, aging apparatus, and substandard working conditions
00:15:49with no discernible standard to turn to. The OSHA standard aims to make significant improvements to
00:15:54that problem. No firefighter should be concerned about whether the working conditions they're
00:15:58subjected to will lead to their injury, illness, or even worse, their death. Too often, our firefighters
00:16:05are reliant on the goodwill of community or elected officials to maintain or update our facilities,
00:16:10apparatus, or personal protective equipment. Our nation's firefighters need a standard to point to,
00:16:15a place to go when status quo is just not safe. While school systems point to test scores,
00:16:21police forces point to crime statistics, our metrics are more nuanced and are not normally
00:16:26easily converted to the direct impact on a person's everyday life. We measure our
00:16:31successes by our failures in property loss and loss of life. Response times and personnel in
00:16:37a unit are rarely reported or compared from department to department, region to region.
00:16:42In September of 2023, station 820 Upper Marlboro in my department had an ambulance catch fire in
00:16:47its apparatus bay. Had it not been for the ambulance siren shorting out and causing a loud noise and
00:16:53then shorting out the electrical system for the doorbell of the fire department, Lieutenant Michael
00:16:58Carey might not be with us today. Fortunately, those things happened, he was able to extricate
00:17:04himself from the window, and he's still serving proudly in our department. Many fire stations
00:17:10across the county are historic or even significant in age and not required to meet the applicable
00:17:15modern fire safety codes. It seems monthly that a piece of apparatus catches fire in a station
00:17:19apparatus bay. We have firefighters from all walks of life who answer the call to serve.
00:17:24Not all these personnel are medically fit to serve. For many, annual medical physicals are
00:17:29the only way they've discovered life-threatening diseases and illnesses. Lieutenant Jeffrey
00:17:35Chandler from my department went in for his annual medical physical and ended up having two
00:17:40stints in place the next morning. On the operating table, he would go into cardiac arrest. Three weeks
00:17:46later, he would have three more cardiac stints put in place. Fortunately, Lieutenant Chandler survived
00:17:52and has been able to see his son become a firefighter in Prince George's County Fire
00:17:56Department and watch his grandchildren grow up. Unfortunately, too many firefighters discover
00:18:01their medical illnesses when it's too late. In 2023, 72 percent of all IFF member line-of-duty
00:18:08deaths were caused by occupational cancer. In 2022, 33 firefighters died of a heart attack.
00:18:14In Prince George's County, annual medical physicals are a benefit as part of our collective bargaining
00:18:18agreement. While our members are fortunate to be in a state with collective bargaining,
00:18:22safety shouldn't be reliant on whether or not firefighters have a contract or if appropriate
00:18:25safety standards are mandated as part of negotiations. Safety should not need to be
00:18:30negotiated. It should be required. Even with the protections of a collective bargaining agreement,
00:18:35aging apparatus in firehouses and substandard working conditions plague most fire departments
00:18:40across the nation. When money is involved, the committee will understand that there is never
00:18:44enough to go around. Too often, fire departments across this nation are vying for public grants,
00:18:49community funding like the UASI SAFER and AFG grants programs. Not getting one of these grants
00:18:54can mean the difference between a safe piece of apparatus or safe firefighters. We've watched as
00:19:00the prices of apparatus have ballooned, sometimes costing nearly two million dollars, not to mention
00:19:04the three to four million dollars to take delivery for said apparatus. We watched manufacturers push
00:19:09back on the idea that PFAS and firefighter gear is safe, even though the science disagrees.
00:19:14We've watched as the IFF took the lead on developing peer support resources so that when
00:19:18our members were in the darkest hour, they'd be able to seek treatment without the fear of stigma
00:19:21or reprisal. Many of these issues would be corrected by putting a place in standard,
00:19:26one that's been needed for many years. A standard that moves us past the status quo into a realm
00:19:30where every firefighter in America is ready to respond with the appropriate apparatus, facilities
00:19:35and health that is needed to do this dangerous profession. I look forward to talking with you
00:19:39more and answering any questions you may have. Thank you, sir. Without objection, the committee
00:19:44will briefly recess and reconvene 10 minutes after the conclusion of the vote series. Thank you.
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01:00:50Okay.
01:00:51And we have an extended event to go to but we will try to do a second round of questioning
01:00:55depending on who's here.
01:00:57So, I'm going to start my questioning for—for Mr. Davis.
01:01:00First, I want to thank you for—for not only being here but for the work and the cooperation
01:01:06that you bring to your office and know that we've worked together on not only this but
01:01:11many other initiatives.
01:01:12through a long list of reasons as to why this new standard is so important. And you talked about
01:01:2160,000 injured, 100,000 killed, the cost of the issues that we're facing in the fire service.
01:01:29And I know what's most important to all of us is make sure that our firefighters are trained,
01:01:35that they're educated, that they're prepared, and that they have everything that he or she
01:01:39needs to keep themselves safe, each other safe, and obviously do the job that they're supposed to
01:01:44do. So we also talked about the fact that the fire brigade standard was established in 1980.
01:01:51I wasn't even born yet. Jimmy Carter was president. So obviously, there's been no significant updates
01:01:57since then. And I know you went through it in five minutes. But if you could tell me,
01:02:03what is the most important issue in the 1980 standard that needs to be updated?
01:02:13Yeah, Congressman, first and foremost, likewise, thank you for all your partnership as well. I
01:02:17can't thank you enough for your leadership in helping us address the issue of PFAS and
01:02:20turnout gear in particular. That is a huge challenge to the health and safety of our
01:02:24members. And looking forward to hopefully getting HR 4769 included in a markup in this committee in
01:02:29the near future. The phenomenal question about what is most in need of update, it really truly
01:02:37is hard to pick just one answer. I think health and safety issues are critical to our members.
01:02:42I think when you look at the rates of cancer in the fire service and the number of firefighters
01:02:46we're losing to cancer, particularly ones that would be and could be detected far earlier,
01:02:52those health screenings are really critical. I think a lot of those details of the health screenings
01:02:58probably best determined at the local level. I think some level of health screening is important.
01:03:04And so I think that's certainly one. But I think recognizing minimum training standards is
01:03:09critically important. A common thing we see in a lot of our line of duty death investigations,
01:03:14be it on the career or the volunteer side, are either folks acting beyond their skill level,
01:03:19beyond their certification level. And that is just such an easy area that we can crack that nut and
01:03:26get that training to folks. And I don't want to rush you. I just want to make sure I get to Mr.
01:03:31Denniston. Is there anything in the, and I know that we've had conversations about carve outs,
01:03:37having conversations about removing certain things. Is there anything in the proposed standard
01:03:41that you think is completely unnecessary? As for me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one
01:03:46of the biggest challenges and frustrations we have is kind of an artificial benchmark, that 15
01:03:51exposure number. There's part of the standard that says if you have 15 or more exposures per year,
01:03:57that's the benchmark at which you need to get some type of medical evaluation. I think our
01:04:02research on not only PFAS and turnout gear, which is not even a smoke exposure, but certainly other
01:04:07products of combustion being what they are, any one exposure could be sufficient to cause cancer
01:04:12in our members. 15 is an arbitrary number. We'd love to see that walk down. Mr. Denniston, the
01:04:18NFPA reported that risks, training costs, and unpredictable schedules are a barrier to
01:04:25firefighter recruitment. I would argue that in places like New York, there are other concerns
01:04:30that we have to recruitment in the volunteer fire service. I mean, people are now working two or
01:04:33three jobs because they can't afford what is probably one of the highest tax dates in the
01:04:39country. But the supply of volunteer firefighters has decreased from an estimated 120,000 in 2000
01:04:46to 75,000 today. In your view, how would the OSHA's proposed rule impact firefighter recruitment
01:04:54and retention in order to maintain the volunteer fire service across not only New York State, but I
01:04:59know very important to both Mr. LaLotta and I across Long Island? You know, I think when we
01:05:04look at the proposed rule as written, we're not opposed to the majority of the things that are in
01:05:10there. And we 100% agree that a lot of that needs to be done. Our objections, I get this at this point,
01:05:17are in some of the details of that. And with the incorporation of those 22 NFPA standards,
01:05:22you would take our basic firefighter training in New York right now is around 124 hours.
01:05:28We've had the NASA and Suffolk Fire Academies have given us estimates that that would raise that
01:05:32number of hours in training up to 260 plus hours. Our fear is with that, I get a volunteer that's
01:05:39interested, they walk in the door, and then I tell them, oh, before you can do anything, I've now
01:05:43got to have you sit through 268 hours worth of training. They're not going to have that time to
01:05:47commit to their local organization, and they're going to go find another place to volunteer. So
01:05:52again, we firmly believe in training. We think there's a lot of things that need to be done,
01:05:57but we would like to see that worked into the rule itself instead of the incorporation
01:06:01of the standards, which raises to a benchmark that's unobtainable.
01:06:05Sorry, Mr. Dennison, just one last thing. My time's expired, but I just want to get it on the
01:06:10record that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, in New York State, the volunteer fire departments,
01:06:19those are considered New York workplaces.
01:06:23That is correct, because of some court cases that have been established,
01:06:26volunteers are considered employees in New York State.
01:06:30Very good. With that, I recognize for five minutes the ranking member, Mr. Carter.
01:06:35Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Walker, you mentioned in your opening comments about
01:06:40the health concerns, about finding out about these death-defying issues quite by accident.
01:06:51We know that the country's facing a staffing shortage, which forces firefighters to work
01:06:57longer hours. It can take a toll on their mental health. Given these challenges, can you paint a
01:07:03picture of how these staffing shortages and extended work hours affect firefighters' safety
01:07:08and mental health? Sure. In Prince George's County last year, we had roughly 32,000 hours
01:07:14of mandatory overtime. That's on top of the elected overtime that my members were working.
01:07:21It ends up in marital fights. It ends up in missed birthdays. It ends up in changed plans at the last
01:07:28minute, having to find child care, having to find someone to put your kid on the bus, take them off
01:07:33the bus. That's a stressor. Anyone with children, anyone that has plans that they've made, having
01:07:39to change them last minute and find emergency care for your family members is extremely stressful.
01:07:46Our peer support team is the second largest peer support team in the nation.
01:07:50There are calls daily directly linked to mandatory overtime and forced working conditions due to
01:07:57either low staffing or slow hiring practices. At the end of the day, that takes an extremely big
01:08:03toll on our members' ability to be mentally and physically prepared for their workplace. Nobody
01:08:10likes to go into work tired. Nobody likes to go into work overworked, and especially not when
01:08:15you're expected to perform at 100 percent all the time. When the bells go off, our citizens expect
01:08:22us to be at our best. And when you're working too many hours without the approved rest periods,
01:08:28it becomes a very burdensome problem, and we see the direct correlation between things like
01:08:35Do you think the proposed OSHA rule will help retain staff? I do. I think too often a lot of the
01:08:45safety measures that should be put in place have to get overlooked due to either funding mechanisms
01:08:51coming short, there being no requirement for a lot of these things to be put in place. Look,
01:08:56we're not going to be able to do that. We're not going to be able to do that. We're not going to
01:09:00have a requirement for a lot of these things to be put in place. Look, when I started in the fire
01:09:05service 20 years ago, mental health and wellness wasn't something we talked about. Unfortunately,
01:09:10we don't talk about it enough in America today. Agreed. It's a huge issue, and there's a stigma
01:09:14associated with it, and we have to do everything in our power to stamp out that stigma because we
01:09:20know that mental health is a real issue. And like any other issue that plague us, there's treatment
01:09:26available, and people are not alone. And we need to make sure that we continue to make a comfort
01:09:32place, a comfortable place for people to acknowledge that mental health is not something
01:09:38that is insurmountable and that it's not taboo. And our professionals face it, and certainly
01:09:44firefighters and professionals do as well. Let me ask you real quickly, Mr. Davis, you mentioned
01:09:51in your comments suicide. How prevalent is the issue with suicides within the organization?
01:10:01Thank you, Congressman. Fantastic question. Suicide is a tremendously large problem plaguing
01:10:06the fire service. Looking at rates of PTSD and other mental and behavioral health challenges
01:10:12among first responders compared to the average population, I believe the data is around three
01:10:16times higher occurrence among first responders than the average person. The IFF, we're proud to
01:10:22operate the Center for Excellence in Maryland, which is an inpatient treatment facility for
01:10:29first responders, for firefighters. One of the biggest challenges we have is finding bed space
01:10:34for folks who are seeking treatment. We're actively working to try to expand the availability of that
01:10:39treatment, but I think the demand is clearly there, and I'm excited to work with you in any way
01:10:43possible to support. And we stand ready to do that also. Real quickly, I've got about 50 seconds,
01:10:47but I'd like each of you to just briefly give me a quick answer to this.
01:10:55FEMA preparedness grants were pushed to a 10% cut. Tell me how has that impacted
01:11:04the 10% cut to programs assistance to firefighter grant program? How's that impacted your operations?
01:11:11I think the assistance firefighter grant program is very important for our firefighters, and it gives
01:11:17us some additional initial funding to look at a lot of the things that have been proposed in
01:11:22the standards, so that it's devastating to us when those numbers are cut. When the program was,
01:11:30I'll call it fully funded, it didn't cover what we needed it to cover. Now that it's less,
01:11:35it's difficult, and it's difficult on small volunteer organizations that have no support
01:11:42staff to write these grants. They're becoming discouraged that they're trying to write them,
01:11:47but they're not being successful, and as the money goes down, they're less successful. It's
01:11:51devastating for us. Thank you. Mr. Davis? I believe the FY23 cycle, we had around two billion dollars
01:11:57of unmet applications that were rejected. A further 10% cut on appropriations for the program just
01:12:02drives that even higher. That's more aging fire trucks that shouldn't be on the road. That's more
01:12:07short-staffed fire departments, whether it's a career or a volunteer operation. I think every
01:12:10community suffers from that. We currently have a FY23 SAFER grant application in for 45 firefighters.
01:12:20I expect that that's also going to be the case for the FY24 budget. Without those firefighters,
01:12:25it means the firefighters that you currently have are still working those longer hours,
01:12:31filling in spots that we don't have a firefighter to fill in because the funding wasn't there,
01:12:35or the ability to hire those people wasn't there. So as we're here to listen and to help,
01:12:40I think I hear you clearly across the board that the 10% cut to the
01:12:46Assistance Firefighters Grant Program is devastating. It's something that that hurts
01:12:50you and doesn't help you. So I'm going to reach over to to my colleagues on the other aisle and
01:12:54ask that we join forces in working to restore those cuts because we hear in a bipartisan way
01:13:00that this is not something that's Democrat or Republican, but this is about saving lives and
01:13:04preparing, giving you the tools to do your jobs. My time has expired, Mr. Chairman. I yield.
01:13:08The gentleman's time has expired and I'll recognize my good friend and colleague from
01:13:12Long Island, Mr. Laloda. Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate it. If adopted as currently written,
01:13:18OSHA's proposed rule will devastate our nation's volunteer fire departments,
01:13:22decreasing public safety and increasing costs. This has been made clear to me after many meetings
01:13:28of volunteer firefighters in Nassau and Suffolk counties back on Long Island. Small and volunteer
01:13:34fire departments are crucial in ensuring community safety, especially in suburban and rural
01:13:40underserved communities. These departments often serve as the first line of defense in emergencies,
01:13:45providing rapid response times that can save life and property. Volunteer firefighters
01:13:50demonstrate exceptional dedication, often balancing their service with other jobs and
01:13:55responsibilities. Their presence enhances local resilience, fosters community spirit,
01:14:00and ensures that even the most remote areas can access essential firefighting and emergency
01:14:05services. We all agree, Democrat and Republican, that safety must be a top priority, including
01:14:11rigorous training, adherence to safety protocols, and the use of proper equipment. But I am
01:14:17increasingly concerned that these new safety standards will force small and volunteer fire
01:14:22departments to shudder, drastically impacting their work to keep our community safe every day.
01:14:28Gentlemen, thanks so much for being with us here today, and thank you for your dedication to
01:14:32keeping America's community safe. I'd like to ask a few questions of you to get some more details
01:14:37of how this proposed rule meets the needs of small and volunteer fire departments. And Mr.
01:14:43Dennison, I'd like to start with you first, sir. As it relates to safety standards and in your
01:14:48position as a risk management professional, would it be fair to say that most, if not all,
01:14:54fire departments have a mission statement in which the safety of the community and its firefighters
01:15:00is paramount to their operation? Absolutely. I mean, our number one principle is the safety
01:15:05of our firefighters. We work very hard to do that. We work to the best that we can within the NFPA
01:15:12standards that apply to that, and we do everything we can to increase the safety of our firefighters.
01:15:19We're just concerned with this, as currently written, the level of detail that it would go into
01:15:25would be devastating to our budgets. With that foundation and long-term dedication in mind,
01:15:32do you still see a need to improve emergency responder safety? Absolutely. Again, as we've
01:15:38stated several times, we're not opposed to firefighter safety, and we think a lot of the
01:15:41things that are in this standard are long overdue. We just would like a seat at the table to be able
01:15:46to discuss this and work on some of the details so that we have a piece that's obtainable by all.
01:15:51If it's not obtainable, no one's going to follow it, but if we can work to make it obtainable, then
01:15:55we'll do a better job protecting firefighters. In a few sentences, though, can you describe what's
01:16:00in this rule that you do like and that you do support that would enhance the safety of your
01:16:06members? I think, as several of the panelists have already mentioned here, the physical component
01:16:11of it is very important for our firefighters, and we want to make sure that our firefighters have
01:16:15the proper screening. The problem with the rule, as proposed, is by incorporating NFPA 1582,
01:16:22we're going to take the average price of a firefighter physical in my district from $300
01:16:26up to about $1,300 per firefighter. When I look at the amount of documentation that would be needed
01:16:33for the pre-plans and all of that kind of stuff, we don't have any paid personnel in my department,
01:16:37so we would have to hire somebody to come in and do that. When I look at the cost of doing that and
01:16:42I look at the cost of the physical increase from my firefighters, I'm taking my $280,000 budget and
01:16:48moving it to $4,400,000. That's a 42% increase in my budget. It's just not obtainable or
01:16:55agreeable to my taxpayers. And from where would those funds come if they had to?
01:17:01Again, we would either have to raise taxes 42% or, as we mentioned earlier, Congress would
01:17:06have to refund some of the grant programs, but the problem with a grant program is that's a one-time
01:17:10thing. So that may get us through one year, it may help us out a little bit, but that's not going to
01:17:14help us to continue doing the level and provide the services that we need to down the road.
01:17:20Thanks, and I only have about a minute left, so I just want to shift gears here real quick.
01:17:23OSHA has indicated that the incorporated by reference standards should not be problematic
01:17:29as fire departments already follow them. Can you explain why this would be a problem now?
01:17:35I sit on two NFPA tech committees, so I've helped to write two of those NFPA standards.
01:17:40I know that from the work on the committee, we build those to be the gold standard. We build
01:17:45them to what everybody should aspire to do in a best case solution with all the resources available
01:17:50that we want fire departments to meet. Unfortunately, that's not the world that we live in
01:17:54today, and we just don't have the necessary funding. If we had all the time and all the
01:17:59resources, we would be 100% in favor of this thing as written. The problem is we don't have all the
01:18:04time and we don't have all those resources. And thank you, and I appreciate your dedication.
01:18:08You come into Washington to provide testimony to this committee. It's going to be very useful
01:18:12for us to help balance the needs of ensuring that we have firefighter safety and a very awesome
01:18:19community service volunteer fire departments for decades, if not centuries to come. Thank you,
01:18:24Chairman. I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Lalore. I now recognize the newest member of the subcommittee
01:18:29from New York, Mr. Kennedy. Thank you very much, Chairman D'Esposito, Ranking Member Carter,
01:18:35for holding this hearing, and thank you to the witnesses for testifying here today.
01:18:40Emergency response workers in America face considerable health and safety risks as
01:18:46you all work, and they all work in dynamic and unpredictable environments. And it's critically
01:18:53important that we ensure the safety of all of our first responders, including firefighters,
01:18:58who risk their lives every day to keep our communities safe. Unfortunately, current OSHA
01:19:03standards are outdated and incomplete and leave our brave first responders in danger.
01:19:09And as it stands, they do not address the full range of hazards facing emergency responders.
01:19:15Lag behind changes in protective equipment performance and industry practices,
01:19:20conflict with industry consensus standards, and are not aligned with many of the current
01:19:25emergency response guidelines provided by other federal agencies. Emergency responders,
01:19:33firefighters, and others are entitled to OSHA safety standards that nearly every other occupation
01:19:41enjoys. As the brother-in-law of a Buffalo firefighter and representing a community
01:19:48in Buffalo that lost Jason Arno, a brave firefighter, in the line of duty just last year,
01:19:56I have serious concerns about what we're dealing with. And again, I appreciate you all being here
01:20:00in Washington today. I have a question I will send to Mr. Davis and Mr. Walker. As representatives
01:20:10of the International Association of Firefighters, can you elaborate on the significance of OSHA's
01:20:16proposed emergency response standard, particularly for the 345,000 firefighters and emergency
01:20:23medical workers that you both represent? Absolutely. Fantastic. I appreciate the
01:20:29question, Congressman, and thank you so much. You know, this really, I think, represents an
01:20:34unprecedented advancement in safety for firefighters. Again, we're dealing, speaking
01:20:40specifically for the IFF's membership at least, we're dealing with unfathomable breakdowns in
01:20:44safety for our members, whether it's, you know, apparatus failures, whether it's lack of equipment,
01:20:49whether it's lack of staffing levels, you know, lack of basic health resources being provided to
01:20:54our members. And it's, you know, downright demoralizing when our members look at other
01:20:59industries and see that nearly every other industry has some form of legally enforceable
01:21:03protection, and we don't have those basic protections. I think when you do an incredibly
01:21:08dangerous job, you deserve to have at least some semblance of enforceable safety protections. And,
01:21:13you know, our EMS personnel also appreciate the extension of this onto the EMS realm as well.
01:21:18EMS practitioners equally face assaults from patients, face, you know, difficult working
01:21:24conditions, and to include them in the emergency response proposal was a significant step forward
01:21:29by OSHA. Mr. Walker? I would say that this proposed rulemaking makes a good step forward
01:21:37towards making our workplaces safer and more accountable to that safety. Too often,
01:21:42politics comes in between doing what's right because of lack of funding or special interests
01:21:48that have more political power slash will. You know, and quite frankly, the fire service ends
01:21:55up being the forgotten service because we're not flashy. We don't create the bad headlines,
01:22:00we create the good headlines. And too often in politics, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the
01:22:05grease. It's the one that creates more work for the group in front of me that ends up getting
01:22:12more funding. We've seen police forces in the U.S. after the summer of 2020 have more funding now
01:22:19than ever before for training and education. I can't say that that's true in the fire service
01:22:24because that money has to come from somewhere. In the state of Maryland, we're pouring money
01:22:29into the blueprint for Maryland education. And as a husband of a teacher, I support public education,
01:22:35but understand that there's only so much money to go around, and without this applicable standard
01:22:40to be held accountable, we'll continue to be the forgotten service. Thank you. The firefighter
01:22:46community obviously faces a heightened risk of exposure to toxins and hazardous materials on a
01:22:52daily basis during emergency responses. In this context, DHS preparedness grants play a vital role
01:23:00in supporting initiatives aimed at mitigating these risks and improving the safety and well-being of
01:23:05firefighters. Considering the current challenges faced by the firefighter community, particularly
01:23:12concerning the increased risk of death from exposure to these toxins and other hazardous
01:23:17materials, how crucial are these grants in addressing the issues, and what specific types
01:23:22of funding and resources are needed to better protect those who are serving our communities?
01:23:29Yeah, fantastic question. You know, I think there's a couple projections we need. Certainly,
01:23:34ability to access health screenings and cancer screenings in particular is critically important
01:23:40to our members. I think anyone who's had the, you know, misfortune of seeing a cancer case play out
01:23:45in front of them knows that recognizing and detecting that cancer in an earlier stage is far
01:23:50easier to treat and far more successful to treat than a more advanced stage. You know, we're
01:23:58very grateful for Congress and the FAA reauthorization bill provided a very large sum of
01:24:02money to help transition away from PFAS slate and firefighting foams, or AFFF. I think that goes a
01:24:07long way in terms of reducing our members' exposures to PFAS. I mentioned earlier we've got some
01:24:13legislation out there to spur development of next generation turnout gear. That is critical
01:24:18importance. NIST studies have shown that PFAS is there. More wear and tear of gear exposes our
01:24:23members to more PFAS, which leads to cancer cases. I would love to crack that nut and work
01:24:28with you all on getting there. Thank you. All right, the gentleman's time has expired. I now
01:24:33recognize from the state of Oklahoma, Mr. Burkeen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate the witnesses
01:24:40being here. In regard to OSHA and this proposed rule, Mr. Jensen, you represent, even though
01:24:48you're from New York, coming from Oklahoma, most people from my state would think of New York and
01:24:52think high population density. But in reading your bio and the information you represent, apart
01:24:58from representing rural fire departments with the association that you have an official position
01:25:04with, you are involved in a 2,500 rural fire department. You have a position there. I heard
01:25:14you say just a minute ago that this new OSHA rule takes effect, you're looking at a 40 percent budget
01:25:20cut. Is that correct? It'd be a 40 percent increase. We'd have to raise taxes 42 percent. I'm
01:25:26sorry, that's correct. That's what you said, a 40 percent. You'd have to find 40 percent more of
01:25:31almost a two million dollar annual budget. Is that what I remember reading? That you have like a two
01:25:35hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Okay, I saw 1.7 million. 1.7 is the estimated number in the
01:25:42OSHA document that they say is the average budget for career and volunteer departments. Okay, but
01:25:46yours is 200. I got it. Ours is 280,000 and we're fairly representative of upstate rural New York.
01:25:52Okay, what's interesting, this is a also part of your commentary was that you just went to Indiana
01:25:59and you had only like eight out of 20 different fire chiefs that you're presenting this information
01:26:04talking about this 605 page document that you only had just a handful of fire chiefs that knew they
01:26:11had a 90 day window to read this 600 page document. It took OSHA two years to write.
01:26:21How many fire departments do you think nationwide, I know Indiana is an odd sample, but do you think
01:26:26most fire departments even today, here we are you know first part of June, how many fire departments
01:26:32do you think actually know about this? I think we're doing a better job communicating this to
01:26:37the fire departments and they're starting to catch on. We were at FDIC which is one of the
01:26:41premier fire conferences in the country just a few weeks ago and couldn't believe the number
01:26:46of firefighters that we talked to when we asked them what they were doing about the proposed OSHA
01:26:51document that what are you talking about? We don't know anything about it. We haven't heard about it.
01:26:54It really hasn't garnered the attention in the press and the publications and the you know the
01:26:59smaller rural departments are just not aware. That's why we've asked, we appreciate the two
01:27:04extensions that have been given so far by OSHA for our comments, but we think we've got a long
01:27:09way to go and then as people digest the 608 pages, they feel like they don't have time, enough time
01:27:15to look at it, digest it, and make meaningful comments so they just kind of throw their hands
01:27:20up and walk away. What do you think the average American if they studied their constitution
01:27:24and tried to look in article one and find I can't lay my finger on that power that's been granted
01:27:30to congress to get involved in telling rural fire departments what they can do now army, navy, militia,
01:27:37letters of marquee and reprisal, that's a little different deal. You can find that in the constitution
01:27:42but is it not just lunacy? This federal government is marching towards a place where we're taking
01:27:48away from state and local entities authority over how they run governance. You know it could be
01:27:54argued that this certainly you know borderlines on that or oversteps those bounds but again the
01:28:00majority of us are not opposed to what OSHA is trying to do and we are not opposed to firefighter
01:28:05safety. We're just we have some questions on the way the process was conducted and how we've been
01:28:11able to respond to it and we need adequate time and we'd like a seat at the table so that we can
01:28:15express and look at each one of these pieces and decide what is feasible and make a rule that's
01:28:20obtainable for all. Well you all represent enforcement, emergency response, the broader
01:28:26you know people group you in their mind with law enforcement you know and just the images of
01:28:30what you portray in protecting and serving communities. I think it's also important for
01:28:36this narrative to be built among my colleagues that because we do believe in the rule of law
01:28:42if the 10th amendment is there and it says the power is not delegated by the United States
01:28:46in the constitution to to the congress it's to be left to the states. The 10th amendment is very
01:28:52plain and so I would say to you that in an effort to help you all I think you're the best position
01:28:59to determine the safety for those that you work with on a day-to-day basis. I think the states
01:29:04are the best poised to make these determinations and I think the thing that we need to be shouting
01:29:08for them from the rooftops in Washington DC is we are headed towards bankruptcy as a country
01:29:13because we continue to do things the constitution never gave us permission under the rule of law
01:29:18to do. It's because we support law enforcement that we want to make sure operating under the
01:29:23rule of law that these boundaries that our founders left us that we empower you to be
01:29:29to protect and serve without federal interference and with that I appreciate you being here today.
01:29:33I hope that that we through the congressional review act can put a stop to this and with that
01:29:38Mr. Chairman I would yield. The gentleman yields. I now recognize my friend from New York Mr. Lawler.
01:29:43Thank you Chairman D'Esposito and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today
01:29:48and sharing your knowledge and expertise on this issue. I'd like to start by echoing
01:29:57the sentiments of my colleagues that we certainly appreciate what OSHA is trying to do to improve
01:30:03safety conditions nationwide for all of our fire service. I think you know certainly in a state like
01:30:11New York where we have a large number of career firefighters including in New York City many of
01:30:22whom are constituents of mine and a large volunteer base safety is paramount and we want to make sure
01:30:30that all of our firefighters both from a health standpoint and from the ability to effectively do
01:30:36their job have the resources and support that they need. The district that I represent just
01:30:42north of New York City as I said is home to certainly a very large community of active and
01:30:50retired FDNY but it is also a district where almost all of my fire departments are volunteer
01:31:00and so I have met with them on numerous occasions now and I know there is a great concern about
01:31:11some of the provisions that are being proposed for a number of reasons not the least of which
01:31:18is timing and making sure that there's enough time to review to digest to come back with
01:31:26information for OSHA during the comment period. It's why along with Chairman D'Esposito we fought
01:31:33to get an extension for you know an additional 45 days and fought again to get another extension
01:31:41which was just granted for an additional 30 days. In your estimation is that sufficient or should
01:31:48more time be granted to review this? You can each answer. So in the state of Maryland when
01:31:59this proposed rulemaking came out our state OSHA office or our state OSHA office actually put
01:32:05together a broad team of stakeholders brought together our Maryland State Firemen's Association,
01:32:12the Maryland State Fire Chiefs, the Metro Chiefs as well as the IAFF to go line by line through
01:32:18this proposal and review every single thing that's in there. We're finalizing our document
01:32:26on what we're going to send but quite frankly you know Maryland took a proactive stance and each
01:32:33state is required to to meet this standard. I can't speak for other states and how they handle
01:32:39business on something like this but you know another 30 days will give I think every stakeholder
01:32:45enough time to go through this process. I mean people made time for this because it's important.
01:32:50Mr. Denison has New York taken the same proactive approach as Maryland? We started back in December
01:32:58trying to get the information out and disseminate that amongst the fire service agencies.
01:33:02It took a while for the traction to be gained but we're we've started the process now we're
01:33:07holding informational meetings across the state. We're getting concerns we were in your district
01:33:13just last week sharing some of those those same messages but again it still amazed me the number
01:33:18of people in the room that were completely unaware of what was going on at this point in time so
01:33:23you know we certainly feel like some more time is needed. We're not just trying to kick this can
01:33:27down the road we're just trying to make sure that everybody has a voice as this moves forward.
01:33:32Yes or no just because we're running short on time do you all believe there should be an
01:33:37in-person hearing certainly a virtual one but an in-person hearing hosted by OSHA so that they
01:33:44can engage on this with stakeholders? We certainly feel that there should one of the problems that
01:33:49we're having at this point is we've got questions trying to understand some of what's in the
01:33:54document and OSHA at this point is not willing to answer any questions so we're making statements
01:33:59on things that we don't have true answers. We feel that in-person hearing would give us the
01:34:03opportunity for some dialogue so that we can get some of these things worked out. Yes or no Mr.
01:34:09Maruca? Yes it would be useful. Mr. Davis? We would actively look forward to defending our
01:34:16members safety. Mr. Walker? I echo the sentiments of the panel. Okay Chief Maruca the National
01:34:23Volunteer Fire Council did have two seats on the panel as this rule was being written but do you
01:34:31feel that the volunteer fire service was properly represented in this process and concerns taken
01:34:38into account? We participated in the process. I think we were surprised at the scope and the scale
01:34:50of what was proposed relative to the process up to that point and its impact on the small
01:34:58community departments particularly that half of the fire departments in the United States are in
01:35:02these towns of fewer than 2,500 people. It's an overwhelming burden that's going to fall
01:35:11onto departments that have no budgets and no administrative staff at all. Yeah I think many
01:35:17of the standards that are reflected in OSHA certainly have previously been adopted by a
01:35:23state like New York which certainly has been proactive in being in favor of safety but I think
01:35:32it's important that we make sure that we get this right and that the input of all the stakeholders
01:35:38is taken into account. So I certainly would hope that OSHA will hold an in-person hearing and ensure
01:35:45that all the feedback is made available to everyone so that we can get it right going forward
01:35:52but I also think from a New York standpoint we should be very proactive as Maryland has been
01:35:58to make sure there's a coordinated response. I yield back. The gentleman's time's expired and I
01:36:03recognize my good friend from New York Mr. Molinaro. Thank you Mr. Chairman and certainly
01:36:09thanks for allowing us to wave on to your committee. This OSHA standard of course could provide real
01:36:15benefit to career departments and the need of career departments to meet those standards.
01:36:20Certainly I'm hopeful that we can find ways to support that effort. As a member of a local
01:36:27volunteer fire company myself and have been since 1994 as you have Mr. Chairman, I join
01:36:35thousands upon thousands of New York volunteer firefighters and their families in suggesting
01:36:39and by the way the local governments that support them in suggesting that these standards just are
01:36:44not attainable by local volunteer fire departments and the support of municipalities. I recognize
01:36:50that you've had a series of questions today. Mr. Denison, I'm glad you're with us. Full disclosure,
01:36:56Mr. Denison is a constituent and grateful for your service. New York has over 100,000 volunteer
01:37:03firefighters. We like to say that that likely results in about a four billion dollar savings
01:37:07to local property taxpayers. New York State having the highest burden of property taxes of any people
01:37:12in the country knows that in order to transition from volunteer to career is a big challenge and
01:37:18we've seen multiple departments engage in that. The standard here would be such a standards
01:37:24that as suggested would be such a financial burden that property taxes could rise by 27 percent on
01:37:30average statewide. This could be 50, 60, 70 percent in small communities of five and six and 700
01:37:37residents who support volunteer fire companies. Rather than getting far afield, I'll focus here.
01:37:43Mr. Denison, does the state of New York have enough training capacity to get volunteer
01:37:50firefighters up to the training standards as suggested by OSHA? With the standards the way
01:37:55they're currently written, one of the proposed NFPA standards that's incorporated by reference
01:38:00would require us to have fire officer one for our captains and lieutenants, fire officer two
01:38:05for our assistant chiefs, fire officer three for our chief officers. We do not have the capacity
01:38:10currently in New York State to offer fire officer three. Office of Fire Prevention and Control is
01:38:15working on that now so that we can get that put together, but they're estimating between five and
01:38:20seven years to get the course stood up, to get the instructors trained, and to make it available
01:38:24to reach the masses that we would have to reach. Unfortunately with the way that this has been
01:38:29proposed by OSHA, they're looking at a two-year timeline for us to have that done. So they're
01:38:34looking for it in two years and it's going to take us five to seven years to incorporate that. So
01:38:38we would like to get to that point, but we're just not there yet. So Mr. Denison, you come from a part
01:38:42of the state that obviously I represent, truly upstate Mr. Chairman by definition. Do our
01:38:50communities have the medical staff, physicians, to meet the physical examination requirements as
01:38:56proposed? So the 1582 standard that's been incorporated by reference, we're being told by
01:39:01our providers that they do not have the capacity to do that, to meet that standard. Again, we're
01:39:06all for firefighter physicals, we think that there should be screenings, we think there should be a
01:39:11lot of things, but the 1582 standard is just so detailed in what it requires that our providers
01:39:17are telling us they do not have that capacity to meet right at this point. Mr. Denison, how many,
01:39:21you deal with a number of volunteer fire departments, do any of them get direct revenue
01:39:25from the federal government? Most of our fire departments are all taxpayered other than the
01:39:31grant programs which have been cut. Do any of our local volunteer fire departments get direct
01:39:37financial assistance from the state of New York? No competitive grant, just a check,
01:39:40thank you for your service? No sir. So all of this of course lands on local property taxpayers,
01:39:46and this is not to suggest that we shouldn't have the highest standards. In fact, I think
01:39:49volunteer firefighters try to meet those standards, and certainly as a former county executive, I can
01:39:54assert that in the state of New York especially, county governments through the departments of
01:39:58emergency management are required to establish the training platforms and to engage in mutual
01:40:05aid planning and prop up an emergency response system when local communities can't shoulder that
01:40:11entire burden. Mr. Davis, I have the greatest respect for the career firefighters, have a great
01:40:16number in my district that I work with. There is little question that these standards could provide
01:40:23great value to career departments, and we ought to meet the highest standard, I agree with that.
01:40:28Do you think though right now agencies, would they or would they not, if this standard were
01:40:34to go into effect, don't you think volunteer and career would turn to AFG and safer grants
01:40:39unlike ever before in order to access dollars and meet these standards? Would you suggest that
01:40:43that's probably true? Sure, I mean I think there's a logical assumption that departments will look
01:40:48for those grant opportunities, but I think there's also a likelihood it's going to drive discussions
01:40:52within the local government itself as well as the state government for ways we can find ways to
01:40:57meet these requirements, and I think, you know, certainly in places where there are, you know, high
01:41:02property tax levels, you know, could see difficulty in raising taxes, but again those those discussions
01:41:08need to be had. Just because it's costly doesn't mean we need to shy away from safety.
01:41:12Without, when I'm concerned with the chairman, I won't further the questions only to
01:41:17assert that that is very, that's a very thoughtful response. I think we all acknowledge in the state
01:41:22of New York in particular there are five separate ways you can create a fire department. None of
01:41:26them make any sense, right? It's a municipal department, it's a jurisdiction, a district,
01:41:29it could be contract, it could be 501c3, or it could be municipally owned. You and I all know
01:41:35that to bridge that particular conversation won't take more than seven years, it'll take 700 years
01:41:41to have that kind of conversation, and the state of New York has never, has never put dollars on
01:41:46the ground effectively to support volunteer fire departments, and I think we all agree that we want
01:41:50federal dollars to get to the men and women on the front line, whether they be career volunteers.
01:41:55So I do hope, Mr. Chairman, that OSHA commits to another hearing. I hope that we can consider
01:42:00standards that that get our volunteers to the highest degree practical, but acknowledge the
01:42:04reality that we live in. We don't have the resources, the taxpayers are already overburdened,
01:42:09municipalities don't have the technical strength to engage in this, and oh by the way, thanks to
01:42:14New York being the leader in outward migration, more people leave the state of New York to other
01:42:18states in this country. We don't even have the human beings to engage in the kind of effort
01:42:22that would take to make that sort of transition, but I respect you all, I appreciate you all. Mr.
01:42:26Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Molinaro, and with that I want to thank all the witnesses
01:42:32for being here, and I just want to lastly say a couple of comments after this hearing. I think
01:42:38that this was an opportunity for us to further conversation. I want to thank the International
01:42:45Association of Firefighters. Like was mentioned, this OSHA standard hasn't been touched since
01:42:511980, and you have been the driving force of making firefighters lives safer throughout this
01:43:00country, and it's not just career firefighters, but volunteers and everybody in between. So
01:43:05I want to thank you for that. I also want to thank those that have served the volunteer fire
01:43:11service for much of their lives for the same thing, for being here on Capitol Hill today
01:43:16and traveling from different parts of the country in order to speak on behalf of firefighters
01:43:22throughout the nation, people who work their regular jobs and get out of their beds and leave
01:43:27their dinner tables to respond to alarms because they love their community. And this is an
01:43:35opportunity that we have here that probably, I know it sounds cliche, but they haven't been
01:43:41changed since 1980. It's probably a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to change the standard,
01:43:45to make things safer, to make apparatus safer, to make sure that firefighters have the resources
01:43:52they need to do their jobs. And I want to thank you all for being here, for speaking
01:43:58out and being passionate about the things that matter most. And I really, truly hope that,
01:44:03as you can see here today, we had individuals wave on to this committee from different parts
01:44:08of the country because it matters to everyone. This isn't a Republican or a Democrat issue.
01:44:12I think it's an American public safety issue and one that we take very seriously. So
01:44:18I hope that this is the start of many more conversations, not only with just
01:44:23the stakeholders in this room, but with OSHA and others to make sure that everyone is represented
01:44:29and that everyone is kept safe. Because at the end of the day, that is exactly what we are here
01:44:34to do and what we're here for. So the members of the subcommittee may have some additional
01:44:38questions for witnesses. And I would ask that the witnesses respond to those in writing.
01:44:43And pursuant to Committee Rule 7D, the hearing record will be open for 10 days.
01:44:48Without objection, this subcommittee stands adjourned. I ask you all to please remain safe.

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