Bring Me The Horizon on 'Nex Gen' and life after Jordan Fish: "You have to accept who you are"
NME headed to Sheffield to meet Bring Me The Horizon's Oli Sykes at The Church (the band's HQ and that of Drop Dead) to talk about the long journey to new album 'Post Human: Nex Gen', overcoming addiction and trauma, moving on after the exit of Jordan Fish, working with Aurora and Underoath, their next album and what the future holds from here.
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00:00I love making music, I love creating, I love art, like it's my favourite thing to do.
00:04I do it for fun, if I'm not making music I'll write a story, I'll draw, I'll make a t-shirt
00:09for Drop Dead Whatever, I love that. How did it get so bad that I was saying I want it over with?
00:20Hi, I'm Andrew Trendall, you're watching NME's In Conversation, and we're here today
00:25with Oli Sykes off Bring Me The Horizon. Hello. How you doing man? Good, how are you man?
00:29I am very well, for being here. We're not in Mexico City, we are, it's better than Mexico City,
00:38we're in Sheffield, at the church, Drop Dead HQ, this place is crazy. Thanks man. With every Bring
00:44Me album, and with every Bring Me stage show, it's all about kind of creating the world of
00:49Bring Me The Horizon, inviting people in. Is this kind of a similar thing, an extension of yourself?
00:54I guess so, yeah. I think the idea was just to do, kind of make my perfect place, like,
01:02if I wanted to go to a bar, hang out, like what would it look like? It took a bit of inspiration
01:07from a bar in Japan, because they don't really have religion as such there, so they, I think
01:13they find things like Christianity and stuff like that, quite interesting in a kind of more curious
01:20way. So they had a place that was just full of, like, religious stuff, and I remember going and
01:27thinking, this place is awesome. So I did steal the idea a little bit. Yeah, the art's obviously
01:33really cool, I've always had a lot of connections with religion in our art, and yeah, it's also,
01:41like, kind of easy to find on cheap, so. I mean, yeah, I mean, where did you get all this from?
01:47I can't see you driving around car boot sales. I've done a couple, yeah. There's one, like,
01:53I remember we were playing a show in, like, maybe it was France or Germany, and there were a huge
01:56market outside with just stuff like this, and I'm going crazy. The car boot near my house,
02:02go to every so often, but they're not what they used to be, car boots. Rubbish. It's just like
02:07a market now. Do you do events there? People can do some gaming? Yeah, we do all sorts of, I mean,
02:13it's turned into, like, it's out of my control now. Like, sometimes I look at Instagram,
02:17they're doing, like, the people here drawing dogs, and they have a dog up on stage,
02:22and they're all doing, like, life art at dog destroying. How do you keep a dog still? I don't
02:25know. We have films, we have gigs, yeah, we have all sorts, so it's cool. I think it's, like, a
02:33really cool place for people, especially, like, not normals, you know what I mean? Like, we have,
02:39I think it's, like, a really cool safe space for people, and every time people come here,
02:43they always seem to be, like, I want to stay here forever. Can I have an office? Do you know what I
02:47mean? It's, like, I think it's a really good energy. Our staff and everyone at work here are just,
02:52like, awesome, so. Well, they just gave us the tour. They got their own gym, recording studio.
02:56I was going to ask if I could, like, buy a membership off you, but no. Anytime you want,
03:01man. But anyway, we're not here to sell the church, although it's amazing you should come.
03:05We're here because you dropped an album, haven't you? About time. Yeah, I know.
03:13Because I remember we had a Zoom in 2020. Might have been around the time Parasite Eve,
03:21I think, was coming out, and it was quite spooky because Parasite Eve was about this
03:27pandemic, sending everyone underground, scorching the earth, starting again,
03:31all came to be. And then you said you might not make an album again, and you had to plan
03:36to do four EPs in a year. But then, I guess, you know, the world wouldn't let you.
03:42Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think a multitude of reasons. I think we thought we were going
03:51to be in lockdown a lot longer than we were. I mean, we were in it a long time, but it got
03:57to a point where we thought, oh, this is not going away anytime soon. So we thought we could
04:00bang out a few EPs in that time. Yeah. We also thought these EPs were going to be a little more
04:07humble and a bit of fun. Like the idea when we started remotely writing is like, this is going
04:13to be a lot more difficult than writing in real life. So let's not, it sounds bad, like not saying
04:19let's not experiment or push ourselves sonically, but let's do a good, solid, bring the rising
04:23record. Let's take everything that we've done over the past few years and put it together and
04:30kind of take the path of least resistance in that respect. Like now is not the time for us to be
04:34like writing a, you know, experimental jazz album. Do you know what I mean? It's because it's going
04:39to be too difficult. So I think what happened is, A, we realized a couple of weeks in or months in
04:46that it's not that difficult, actually. And we did also allow ourselves to experiment more than we
04:51originally thought, which I think was a perfect combination of briefs for bring the rising,
04:58because I think we're always in danger of going too far, making it too difficult. How can we
05:04make this different? Everything's got to be different. It can't be the same as last time.
05:07So everything, even if it's not as good, it's got to be different. You know what I mean?
05:12So I think that original brief of like, do a solid bring the rising record with the
05:18elation of like, oh, this is actually more easy, was perfect for us because it made us push ourselves
05:23sonically and go places like that we haven't gone before and be a bit more open and fun with it.
05:31But also we stuck to the brief of like, let's do a solid bring the rising album. And I think
05:36for our fans, that was, is the perfect, you know, I think if you ask the majority of our fans,
05:41if you compare it to our ammo, a lot of people like, we've gone too far. Do you know what I mean?
05:45Whereas like that record is like the perfect mix of everything we've done in our career.
05:50Yeah. And I think, so even though we're an EP, it might as well be in an album.
05:57This is it. Because I don't know, I think ammo is kind of, in my mind, ammo is kind of like your
06:02okay computer. It's like, bring me on, you know, turned up to 11 in every aspect. And then this
06:07kind of felt a bit like kid A in the sense of like scrapping it down and starting again. But
06:11I was going to ask if you felt weird about thinking of Survival Horror as an EP now,
06:17because it's awesome. And it's such a, it's such a full bodied thing that I think fans
06:20think of it as an album now, don't they? Well, in every sense of the word, it is because
06:26we play seven songs off that record live. We don't play seven songs off any other record.
06:32You know, even ammo, that's the spirit of Simptern or like, you know, obviously past the
06:37point of like, when we just had Simpternal and the other records, we might play that many songs.
06:43But ever since that's a spirit, we, you know, having to, you know, play three or four, maybe
06:48not seven. Yeah, everyone wants to see all these songs. So in a lot of ways, it's even more than
06:54an album, because for all intents and purposes, there were more singles, there were more songs
06:59we need to play live, everything. And it was a realization. It's like, well, even if we release
07:04a new record right now, how are we going to get all these, how are we going to get more songs into
07:07the set? When everyone wants to see Obey, everyone wants to see Kingslayer, everyone wants to see Parasite Eve,
07:11everyone wants to see Dear Diary. Everyone, you know, pretty much every song. So it's like,
07:17if we start chucking in a new record, it's like, what are we going to do?
07:20Like, we, and so that coupled with the fact that like, TikTok turned into this huge thing. And we
07:27were very lucky in the fact that we got a little piece of that pie and showed our, like,
07:31Can You Feel My Heart blew up on there. And suddenly it's all these new kids that we're a
07:35brand new band to wanting to see us. We come out a lot down, like, I think we went maybe three or four
07:41million listeners on Spotify. We came out a lot down with eight. Do you know what I mean? Doubled.
07:44Do you know what I mean? And that was like, fell overnight. And just, you know, Ben Ed Sheeran
07:51asking us to do this, it just, it just, things that we would never imagined happening, happened.
07:56Do you know what I mean? So we're just like, and the, you know, we're pushing 40 now. We've all
08:03got families. People have got kids. We can't go on tour. We can't go and do all these tours that
08:08they want us to do and then go back and get in studio as well. Do you know what I mean? So
08:12writing had to be coupled with touring. Do you know what I mean? Suddenly touring
08:15was when we wrote as well. And that's, even though you do have a lot of time in day,
08:19it's not as easy as when you get in a studio for two months and just focus on one thing.
08:25So it just, yeah, it just became, I don't know, this is, and we have to honor that as well. Like
08:30this has become a huge thing and that's awesome. Like there's no point in rushing the next album
08:34because we've got a record here that everyone wants to hear. You know? And it's not as if you
08:38were kind of like reached lazy old man, rockstar stage. You guys have been pretty bloody busy. I
08:44mean, you had the, so you smash red in the leads, download the Brits of Ed Sheeran. You basically
08:49set the NME awards on fire with that amazing closing set. Like what? Two or three arena tours
08:55maybe around the world. So it's not as if you've been sat on your laurels. It must be hard to like
09:00it's been more hectic than ever. You know what I mean? I feel like I haven't had a, you know,
09:06I had a holiday after we put next gen out and that was the first true time I've ever felt like
09:12I don't have to actually do something involved with my bands today. Do you know what I mean?
09:15That was the first time. So it's been, yeah, definitely not sitting about doing no.
09:20But that's like, you never had a band that's particularly good at that, especially
09:23sitting around is what I mean. Cause you had, it was really kicking off with ammo and then
09:29suddenly you got like, you got new fans and then maybe I'd guardian readers being like,
09:32I'll take this band seriously. So what was it like for someone like yourself with a constantly
09:38active mind when you're forced to slam the brakes on when COVID happens, what does that do to you?
09:44I mean, I think I've already been quite open about falling back into drugs and falling back
09:49into like bad habits with, um, in lockdown, you know, I think, and it was what prompted
09:57me to write the record or at least what the record's about is this idea of like
10:04society works when it's moving and when we don't stop and when we're buying,
10:09selling and just being involved in, but as soon as a flu took to spanner in the works,
10:16it didn't work whatsoever. And the reality is it didn't work. Actually it worked for the mass,
10:21the masses, or it feels like it works for the masses, but really there's no like wider support
10:26for, for anyone apart from the people on the top. And we're not in a society. It doesn't work that
10:34well. And we're not in a good place. We're just, it just kinda, you can't tell it's not working
10:39that well when it's all moving so fast that we don't stop to, to look at it. And I think
10:44that was exactly how I felt soon as it all stopped. I, I wasn't in a good place. I was just in a good
10:52place before because the band was doing well and because we were touring the world and because
10:55we were getting nominations for awards and now we're just feeding off all that stuff. Do you
10:59know what I mean? And I didn't even realize that I never thought of myself as someone,
11:03I don't put my awards upon walls. I don't do what I don't. I didn't think I felt too much
11:08of my own ego and, and, and the worth, my worth, I would get in it all. I was deriving it all from
11:14that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so as soon as it all went straight back to drugs,
11:19do you know what I mean? So I wasn't healed at all. I was just distracted. And I think
11:24there was a duality between that and, and the world, you know what I mean? So it was the start
11:28of realizing that, Oh, I'm not, I'm not as fixed as I thought I was when I got out of rehab,
11:34you know? Yeah. So what's the next step? How did you pull yourself back? Um, was it with work? Was
11:40it with, it w it was, but it was with listening to myself. Yeah. The first step was listening to
11:48myself. Um, uh, kind of what utopia is about is, is the setting, the scene of the whole record and
11:55the goal of the record where we hopefully end up at the end of the record is,
12:00is finding a perfect state of being or a content state of being a place where we're happy. And I
12:09think the, the main obstacle in most of our lives with that is basically what I say in the first
12:19few lines is, uh, I still wish that I was someone else on, you know, some days. And it's the fact
12:25that I'm still rejecting myself. I still haven't, I'm still not fully accepting who I am. And the
12:30thing is, is it doesn't matter who you are, what you've been through in your life, anything you
12:35have to accept who you are. That's the first step of being happy. Like, and I think we, most of us
12:40are constantly rejecting who we are wanting to be someone else, wanting to have something else,
12:44wishing we had a different body, wishing we had a different face, wishing we had a different job or
12:48girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever. And we can improve ourselves, but we still have to accept
12:54ourselves. You know what I mean? And, and the, what I say, like love is the law. It's the idea
12:59of that. We, we start, we start using love as a guiding principle for everything we do. And when
13:05I say that, I don't, I mean, we act on the basis of our true emotions and what we love doing rather
13:11than through jealousy, through anger, through fear, like rather than acting all those things,
13:19what we do a lot of time, a lot of things we get in our lives or wish we had is, is not because
13:22we really want it. It's because someone else has it or something's kind of gaslighted us into
13:28thinking we want it or all these things. And I think it's when you start using love and your
13:36true, like what you want as your guiding thing, it's like, you start going, actually, I don't
13:41like these people. I don't know why I'm going out every Friday night with them, but actually,
13:45this doesn't make me happy to be on this application or it, you know what, I'm actually,
13:50this is not me at all. And it's a really fucking difficult thing to do because it's like the
13:55ultimate, like FOMO and disconnecting, you're going to, people fall out with you. People aren't
13:59going to like the fact, but until you can start to learn how to tune out the external noise and
14:07just follow your heart, you're always just going to be in the same patterns of, you know, of,
14:13I guess you're always going to be in a shit place basically. So that was my first thing. And then,
14:19like I say, I'm not quite there myself. It's like, but I know that is the guiding thing of like how
14:25to be happy. It's like, we've got to start tuning out that external shit and listening to what we
14:29really want, who we really want to be, what really makes us happy. The whole record's a battle between
14:35light and dark and the darkness is almost like, well, it is on a narrative sense. It's this
14:40mistress called Miserea that is always luring me or the character back into that dark side,
14:47like Cool Age, for instance, a lot of the choruses and is spoken almost like from this toxic lover
14:53of like, come here, suffer your fate, give me a hug. I'll love you like nobody else.
14:58That this, you know, society is like, just come back. You don't need, you know what I mean? It's
15:02like a limousine where it's like, again, it's just like, I'll swallow that bile for you all.
15:06And it's a constant battle throughout the record of that because that side is so much more
15:13easier and powerful just to go, just to give into that force. It's so much easier than going,
15:18no, I'm actually going to go on the long, hard, slow path to contentment. That's so hard. Whereas
15:26the other side is so easy and it's so sexy and dark and romantically like, you know what I mean?
15:31It's like, I like to think of it like dirty nostalgia. When you think of like some, like
15:36the nights used to go out when you're younger or the drugs used to do, it's like, you know,
15:40it were bad, but there's this kind of romance. Yeah. And there is nostalgia. Like, oh, I just
15:45want to, and it's, that's just so much easier. So it's that first step is to like, go,
15:51I know it's going to be hard. I know it's not, and it's not going to be easy. And it's going to be
15:55like a lot longer, a lot more of a slog, but the first, and I'm going to fail. Like, and throughout
16:02the record, there's like multiple times where I fail because everyone who goes on that path is
16:09going to fail. It's because you have to fail to realize what's wrong with you, where you fall
16:15down, what's, what you need to do next and stuff. So it's not easy, but it's, it's, it's kind of
16:22like the first song is, is inviting everyone on that journey to go, do you want to do this? Do you
16:27want to go there? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And then you need a song like N.A. to go, right,
16:31I fucked up, but it doesn't have to be this way forever. It's a matter of facing, you gotta face
16:35up to yourself. You can't just make an album and go, you can't just say it's going to be okay.
16:38You have to say it's going to be okay eventually. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, N.A. is, so,
16:44I mean, Dark Side is the first song, the first I've fallen after Statues and Limousine, which
16:54are like two sides of a coin. Limousine, uh, Statues is the taking, being an, being an agent
17:01of your own healing, basically going, I, no one else is going to come and rescue me. No one's
17:06going to save me. Like, so my own love is more powerful than anyone else's love. And it's
17:11accepting that, like, you've got to take charge of your own healing. No one's going to come and,
17:17no person, no thing, no job, no, none of that's going to make you better. It's, you've got to do
17:23the work yourself. And Limousine's the flip side to that. It's like, okay, but what if you just
17:28did all the, forget that, just come and have, just come and, like a Limousine for me represents,
17:34I mean, that's what a Limousine is. You step into a Limousine, it's a complete disconnect
17:37from reality. And it's a temporary disconnect from reality where it's nothing to do with reality.
17:42And it's, it's a hedonistic lifestyle. It just represents all that stuff where it's like,
17:46oh, forget about it. Get in, get in, come, come in here, forget all that shit. But you know,
17:51it can only last so long. It's just a ride. You know what I mean? That you have to step out of.
17:55So it's the whole start of the record as, as Utopia and, um, Kool-Aid are two sides of a coin.
18:02Utopia is the utopic state of being like paradise. I guess Utopia is the dream and Kool-Aid's the
18:10coma. And Darkside is the first time I fail, you know, and which we all do. So NA is after I've
18:18asked for help and realized I need to go and get more help. It's that feeling of like, I think
18:27for anyone who's not got an addiction or, or something they've really struggled with in
18:30a lifetime, I would imagine you would, you would think that the hardest thing to do when you fall
18:36off the horse is get back on the horse. But actually it's, it's quite easy to get back on
18:41the horse because you've got motivation. You've got, you really want to get better, but staying
18:46on the horse is the hardest part because once you get back on the horse, it's such a rough ride.
18:50Yeah. Because once you get back on the horse and you're sober and you're clear again, you go,
18:55fuck in hell. I'm back to square one. Yeah. Everyone hates me. I fucked up. I've let everyone
19:01down. I'm so embarrassed. I'm so, and that is, it's like a burning hot feeling of like awareness.
19:09Yeah. I know. All you want to do is go back to the drugs or go back to the thing that you were
19:14doing because it just takes it all away again. And it's so easy. Whereas that it's like, fuck,
19:18I'm right back at the start. It's the worst fucking feeling ever. And that's why
19:24NA is the way it is. It's like, I really fucking wish I were dead right now. I hate myself so much.
19:30And I've just messed up all over again. It's, but it's also about, I mean, I call that part of the
19:36record, the Rehab Trilogy because it goes NA, which is the group session, Lost, which is the
19:41therapy one-on-one session and then Strangers, which is a kind of like takeaway of, of the whole
19:48idea of sharing your pain with other people. Yeah. And it's the realization that like,
19:54even though I said earlier, like about statues, it's like, you have to be in charge of your own
20:00healing. You also have to accept that you can't do it on your own. Yeah. And there's a massive,
20:05like a huge part of, of me getting better. The first time round was going to rehab
20:13and being in a group of people, I was surrounded by a guy who'd seen his mate blowing up in
20:18Afghanistan, a schizophrenic teacher, a person with an eating disorder, a girl that was raped
20:22by her own dad, like all this stuff. And just to be surrounded by people all going through things,
20:28I'm like, fuck, this is a human condition. This isn't just me. I thought I was insane.
20:33I didn't think I was ever going to get better. And I'm listening to all these people saying
20:36all my thoughts, even though they've been through things that are different, worse,
20:39you know what I mean? They're all, and, and obviously like Strangers is that takeaway of
20:44we're all just looking for security. We're all just lost and we're all just wanting to be.
20:48So it's, it's the first part of, of getting better is the fact that you're going to have to accept
20:54that you're going to have to talk about this, no matter how bad what you've been through is,
21:00if you don't get it out of your head, it's, it's never gonna, it's never going to go.
21:04Feelings have to be felt like they have to be processed. They have to be taught. And it's,
21:08so it's, it's the first step of that. It is the first step. Well, it's the second step after
21:13realizing you've got a problem and, and you want to address it, you know?
21:18And did that process feel more profound in having to kind of finish the record without Jordan?
21:25Cause obviously he joined around the time you'd come out of rehab and like you said,
21:29you threw yourself into music and all this stuff and that, the, you know, basically cracking the
21:34whip and keeping the wheels turning kind of replaced a lot of the stuff you were addicted
21:36to before and you got addicted to the work. So it was like removing that, that partner you had.
21:44Was that, did that make finishing the record seem all the more challenging
21:47considering what you were wrestling with in the lyrics? Yeah, a hundred percent.
21:53Obviously like Jordan was a massive part of this band and he was like my right hand man. We were
22:01like a creative force and I know like a lot of time we were spoken about as a duo. Do you know
22:05what I mean? I think where we started to break off is the fact that after post-human, after
22:17survival horror, I started to like think about and address these things and address the way we were
22:24being because me and Jordan, I think when I got out of rehab I needed music or something to throw
22:29myself back into and it was music. And Jordan was in a really cool band that wasn't getting
22:36anywhere and he was surrounded by members that weren't really helping that either and he just
22:41wanted to write and he just wanted to create and I think both of us came together when we needed
22:45each other and we just, it's like we just didn't stop. Yeah. We just got in and we just never
22:51stopped and we slowly started unknowingly kind of pushing the band out and just, it was just the
22:56Ollie and Jordan show and it was just us two and because we could do everything fast and because we
23:02were always up for writing, we're doing it without, you know, without asking anyone. If other people
23:07couldn't do it, it's like okay, we'll do it. You know, Lee can't make it today, okay, we'll do guitar on synth.
23:12Do you know what I mean? It's like and I think there's a danger in being addicted to anything.
23:18Do you know what I mean? I think I became, realized I was addicted to that part of just not stopping
23:23and that fear of like if we stop, we're going to drop off. Yeah. Like the band's not going to be big
23:28anymore, someone's going to take over, someone's going to be bigger and better than us and blah blah
23:32blah and it was like really kind of sitting down and going, you know what, at some point you've
23:39got to accept that this is how big your band are and you've also got to ask yourself how much do
23:43you want to do to earn that extra size or, you know, whatever. Like do you really want to go
23:51on TikTok and do all the dancing and do all the things? Do you really want to be on social media
23:56doing lives and do you really want to do xyz? Do you really want to be killing yourself in the studio
24:00every day when you don't even want to write music just out of that fear of like we might not be the
24:05biggest band? And I realized no. I remember the first time we came back after lockdown, I looked
24:09at crowd, I'm like, fuck, you know, we're playing arenas, we're a big band. Like just take it, just be
24:16happy with it, just fuck it, who cares? Who cares if someone's bigger? Who cares if someone takes over?
24:21Who cares? What's that got to do with you? It's like almost like before our viewing, like
24:26there's a finite amount of success out there, do you know what I mean? And if someone takes it,
24:34it takes away my success, do you know what I mean? It was like this whole just insane view and I think
24:40that's where I started breaking off because we got into that mindset together and I think
24:48I was trying to move away from it where Jordan couldn't to some degree just because we were so
24:56used to it. So it was harder but it also like when we were doing Next Gen and we said, oh,
25:05it's going to come out September, it wasn't finished but we were moving at a pace that
25:10it felt like it were going to be finished, do you know what I mean? But I remember just going,
25:16I want to finish this fucking record, I hate writing this record, I'm so miserable,
25:20this sucks, I just want it done, I just want to go back and live a normal life, I just want to
25:24go on holiday, I just want to blah, blah, blah, do you know what I mean? And I just realized they
25:31weren't happy, do you know what I mean? And what I realized after Jordan left is
25:38the atmosphere got better and I realized, oh my God, how did I get to a point where I was going,
25:44I want to finish this record, I fucking hate it, when I love making music, I love creating,
25:49I love art, it's my favorite thing to do. I do it for fun, if I'm not making music,
25:53I'll write a story, I'll draw, I'll make a t-shirt for Drop Dead Whatever, I love that.
25:58How did it get so bad that I was saying I want it over with? And I realized after,
26:04okay, we're at Jordan, this is going way slower, this is harder,
26:09but the band got more involved again, they came back, they've been pushed out to some degree,
26:18everything became more like we were making art for art's sake, do you know what I mean?
26:22And I thought, no, we don't want this to be over, I just got to get it into my head,
26:29it'll take as long as it takes, and if I want to work two hours today and I don't feel it after
26:32that, stop. I don't give a shit how long people have been waiting for this record, I don't care.
26:40We put these deadlines on ourselves and we get upset when we don't meet them, but the
26:44world doesn't stop turning, no one dies. I think in the review for our album, you guys said as
26:53soon as the record's out, it feels like ancient history that we were ever waiting for it. It's
26:57done, sooner or later it comes out and then it's just like, where's the next one anyway?
27:03It doesn't matter, it's just time. It was getting all that stuff into my head,
27:08truly and really, and believing it and going, yes, that's true, this can wait, people can wait.
27:14Whatever happens to our band, who cares? I need this to make me happy. We're at a place now where
27:21I don't want any more money, I don't want what else in life. I just want to look back on our
27:26career and go, we made fucking sick stuff and we did what we artistically wanted to do, not,
27:32wow, we did a collab with this guy because they gave us this money or because we thought it'd
27:36improve our profile or whatever. All that stuff, it's like, nah, no way, not doing that anymore.
27:42So there wasn't any kind of VH1 behind-the-scenes fisticuffs, it was just two paths going
27:46different ways. Exactly, yeah. Like I've said in other interviews, I'm not going to
27:52fucking sit here and go, oh, it's just creative differences and we're wishing the best and
27:58we're all on good terms and blah blah blah, because it's never like that, do you know what I mean? It's life.
28:04Just like all breakups, you know what I mean? They never end, even the most amicable ones, still
28:11there's a split, there's feelings, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, you see that, everyone's like,
28:15oh, I'm best mates with my ex, it's like, you're a liar. Yeah, you're not, but it's also like
28:23very boring what happened, there's no headline there. It's going to be a very short scene in the
28:27Bring Me movie. It's not going to be any scene, we'll never do one of them because that's the
28:31thing with Bring Me Horizon, it's our story is a very slow, long climb to the top. No one died,
28:39every time they say, do you want a documentary? I'm like, fuck no, look at someone like Foo Fighters,
28:44they've had the most insane story ever and I still don't want to watch that documentary,
28:48no offence. You want a bit of mystery as well, don't you? Yeah, I don't care, and he's been through
28:54so much, lost so many people, no offence, I still don't want to watch it, so why would you
28:58want to watch a fucking Bring Me Horizon one? Do you know what I mean? It's just us being slow
29:03reach to being a big band. No one's, no particularly exciting has ever happened,
29:09you know what I mean? Even like, oh yeah, he was addicted to drugs, whatever. Who wasn't in a rock
29:14band, do you know what I mean? And it's the same with Jordan, there's no there, do you know what I
29:18mean? No exciting, we just got to a point where we weren't happy as a unit anymore. I think
29:26the band are better off without him, he's better off, I think Jordan's such a fucking awesome
29:34producer and songwriter and everything, he's got so much to offer, so many other bands,
29:38he's going to go and make so many bands way sicker, do you know what I mean? And I think
29:43he's going to flourish and I think it's just, we just want to tell him he serves our band really
29:49well and the band won't be where we are without him. I don't even know if I'll be able to sing,
29:55do you know what I mean? I mean, I'm sure I would, but he was the agent in that, he was a person that
30:00helped me do that. I've learned so much from him, I think he's learned a lot from me and I think
30:06it's just, and I also like, I'm sure one day we'll see each other again and we'll talk and
30:12nothing's happened where it couldn't be, you know, it couldn't be sorted out over a drink,
30:17you know what I mean? So yeah, it's that. Yeah, that's life, you pick up little pieces of all
30:21the people you know and the people you meet and the people you love and like Jordan's DNA is going
30:26to stay in Bring Me in some sense, but then you've, now you've rediscovered the chemistry with the
30:30rest of the guys, right? Because that's at the heart of Bring Me, when you see you guys live
30:33on stage you go, they're a band, they're not just four individuals, they're a band, so
30:38you'd still sense Jordan's DNA but you're also appreciating the chemistry with the other three,
30:42right? Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah, I think me and Jordan learned so much together about songwriting
30:50and we grew and there's no doubt that like things that he did are a part of what we are as a band,
30:58you know what I mean? And we'll have that, but also before Jordan came in the band,
31:04our band were always, I think every album we've ever done just got better, you know what I mean,
31:09personally, like from Count Your Blessings we've just always pushed ourselves to experiment,
31:14to get better as songwriters, to do something different, to go somewhere we haven't been before
31:19and although I'll agree Semperternal were a big jump from there as hell, it was always
31:27the trajectory that we were on, we were already messing with electronics, we were already
31:31trying to be something no one's heard before, we're always trying to
31:35push what it meant to be a metalcore band, you know what I mean? And I think it's the same now,
31:39it's like I've always had such a strong vision for our songs and for our records that like
31:46we will get there one way or another, whoever it is, and obviously who we work with and who,
31:51it does affect that vision, that vision will change and evolve and grow, but before Jordan
31:59we were all evolving as Bring Me, as a unit, we're all getting better, we're all pushing it
32:06and then when that's the spirit onwards, it started to be the decline in that, do you know
32:11what I mean? Where it's like, and I felt it as soon as we started working on Kool-Aid,
32:14the first song we did without Jordan, it's just like, I think we just got so used to like
32:20post-pandemic writing of like, you can do everything on a computer, so just do it,
32:24that we forgot like, how's Matt gonna feel if he doesn't play the drums live, or even just
32:32have his own stamp on them, do you know what I mean? How's Lee gonna feel, or what we're gonna
32:36miss by just writing the riff on synth and not having Lee come in and play it and add his own
32:42cadence and vibe to it and all this stuff that just instantly, as soon as we start working
32:48Kool-Aid, I'm like, fuck, we've been missing something that we haven't had for a long time.
32:52And what does someone like Daniel Lancaster bring to the table then? Is he just,
32:57because he's a producer in the more traditional sense of like,
33:01give me the keys, I'll give you a lift, rather than, yeah.
33:04He's a nutter, he's fucking so sick, he's, I mean, I've been working on with him for a while on
33:14my Wife Elicit stuff. Yeah, which is also ace, check it out. Yeah, so we've had like a good,
33:20and he's always brought so much to, I've just always seen, I've always wanted to work with him,
33:25and it was actually another reason he was kind of not allowed, so when Jordan left,
33:34it opened up a role for him, and he's just, I mean, he's like, I've never met someone who can
33:41just like, every time we work with songwriters before, every time they do a melody or whatever,
33:47I'm always like, okay, what else you got? What else you got? And we're trying to figure out
33:51together. I don't know if he just got luckier on a role, but every single melody that guy's
33:57come out with initially, I'm like, that's the one, that's what we're going with, let's work
34:02on that one, I can feel it, and he just, it's like he has this really unique ability to like,
34:09truly tune in with what we're doing and go, what's it saying? What kind of, and he worked
34:16on Kool-Aid with me, the first song, and when he, and I've always wanted to be a bit more like,
34:22have those falsetto, you kind of like, imagine if Radiohead did a metalcore song, what would
34:26it sound like? Do you know what I mean? And we're like, and as soon as I went, that's it, and we
34:30just, and he even challenged sometimes like, nobody loves you like I love you. I'm like, it's
34:36too weird, it's too weird for like, we'll do it as a B part, you know what I mean? But, and then
34:41slowly I went, no, there's something there, something there, and he's just, time and time again,
34:45has just like, and it's just, I think that freshness as well, I think, before we might, I
34:51think we might have started to get stuck in it, and I think that's why we weren't getting stuff a
34:54lot, because we were finding ourselves in old patterns, trying to get this, nine in the same
34:59places that we've already been like, like milked, do you know what I mean? So it was so refreshing
35:04to have someone with completely different, that I'd not worked with at all, to come in and just
35:10offer this new sense of things. So yeah, he's, he's like, him and Zach Savini are like, you know,
35:18the, the Knights in Shining Armor for this record, they really came in at the 11th hour and,
35:24and helped me, and helped us kind of get those last bits that we needed, you know what I mean?
35:30Yeah, we got some really surprising collaborators on the record, I mean, we love Aurora Enemy, don't
35:36we Dean? We do. We know she loves metal, but people might be surprised to see someone like
35:41Aurora on this record, I mean, how did you, how did you land on that? I just messaged on Instagram
35:48with the song, I don't know why I kind of thought that she liked metal, or had an inkling, and
35:55maybe also had some reason to believe that she might like our band. I know she's connected on
36:02some levels with Sigrid, and maybe I heard from the manager, oh yeah, Aurora likes you too, and stuff, so
36:08I didn't know it, but like, I thought, shoot my shot, you know what I mean? I knew what I wanted on that
36:15song, and it was like, someone to bring something that could level it up on a different level,
36:21like someone with like a really ethereal, haunting, beautiful, like deep voice, because we'd already
36:26finished the song, I was on all the verses and everything, you know, like, I don't just want someone
36:30who's just going to come and do what I'm doing, like, I want someone to like elevate it and take it
36:35somewhere else, because obviously, like, the song itself is very Deftones influenced, almost to a point
36:40of parody, and so we wanted something that could help us also, like, you know, for this
36:47whole record, it's like, we're happy, you know, happy to admit that they're all very nostalgic
36:52homages to, like, loads of bands, but it's like, also felt very important that we do something where
37:00we're pushing it as well, to make it our own, put our own stamp on it, and yeah, Aurora, in my head,
37:06could be that person that did that, helped elevate the song to it, to something that feels exotic and
37:13different, you know, and so I messaged her on Instagram, I see that she's read it, and just
37:20nothing, I'm like, okay, I thought it was a long shot, and 10 days later, just as we'd pretty much
37:29confirmed someone else, which is really annoying and shitty of us, but we thought it was, it kind
37:34of happened where we, like, started exploring other people, found an artist, they said yes, but while we're
37:40waiting for them to say yes, she messaged me, so I messaged management, oh, is he going to do it, and
37:45uh-oh, so-and-so's already said yes, so I'm really, I'm obviously not going to mention, but I really
37:51hope we haven't burnt our bridge with them, but yeah, Aurora got back to me 10 days later, I've
37:56just listened to it, oh my god, all caps lock, million times yes, I love this so much, I'm doing it, when,
38:02just let me know, and yeah, that worked, she came to Dan's apartment, actually, in London, and we just
38:08banged it out in a day, and yeah, it was everything I was hoping it would be, and also, the whole idea
38:15with the guests on this record is it's a mixture of the bands that influenced this record, and
38:24that, you know, Glastro, my favorite band, the band that made me want to be a singer, Under Ophir,
38:28were, you know, probably, like, one of the main staples of that whole movement, you know what I mean,
38:35and, like, responsible for defining such a sound, but then also, like, who are Tomorrow's
38:43stars, what do they look like, you know what I mean, and Oozer was obviously one,
38:49just for their, the way they treat music, the way that they just go,
38:54here's a bunch of paint on the wall, here's, like, here's me doing System of a Down, karaoke version, I don't give a
39:02fuck, like, I don't give a fuck what anyone says, and almost, like, getting to work with them, seeing that
39:09that's all that, it seems like chaos from the outside, but it's not, they know what they're doing, like,
39:16when we sent the song to them for their record, they said no to about, I must have sent 12 songs,
39:25what were, like, heavy riff, and then, like, a bit of an 808-y verse, thinking, oh, they'll love this,
39:29you know what I mean, we have to rap over this verse, and they're like, nah, nah, nah, they're like, I need the real
39:34shit, man, where's the real shit, where's sleepwalking, where's this, I'm like, if you don't like this,
39:39what are we, like, doing, and I said, I've got this one, but it's too heavy, and sent the Werewolf track,
39:46and they're like, 100%, this is it, this is the one, so, like, fuck, they know exactly what they want,
39:50so even though it might seem from the outside, but they're just mental, they're not, do you know
39:54what I mean, they are, but there's, yeah, there's definitely a vision there, and then Aurora, for me,
40:03is, like, what a pop star should be, what the next wave of pop stars should look like, someone that
40:08has the songs, but is a real person, that doesn't dare to speak what they believe in,
40:14yeah, gives a shit, what gives a shit about the world, doesn't care about
40:19cutting ties with a sponsor that's based in a certain country by saying something that's
40:23going to go, don't care about how their political views is going to divide their fan base, doesn't
40:31care about burping, or being a real person, or whatever, you know what I mean, just like, we've
40:36had that, haven't we, Dean? It's, like, it's wholesome, and I know that sounds, like, a bit
40:39square, but it's, like, they're singing about real things that mean stuff, but they're, it's,
40:44you know, and don't get me wrong, like, Dua Lipa and all the big pop stars are awesome,
40:49but I do sometimes get the sense, like, how many times can you sing about a lover and not being
40:56good enough, or, like, are you the one, do you know what I mean, like, how many times can you,
41:00and I do find that with a lot of pop albums, it's, like, it's, like, you found the thing that
41:05makes you big, and you, and you, and, and you stick into it, you know what I mean, it's, like,
41:09whereas, like, Aurora, it's just, again, it's, like, a constant desire to be something more,
41:14yeah, push pop, and, and, and, and use that platform for good, and I just think she is
41:20what the next wave of pop stars will look like, yeah, I mean, I don't think kids will,
41:25I think the younger generation will want something with, something tangible, something with actual,
41:31like, substance, you know. Similarly, again, Spencer from Under Earth on the record,
41:35yeah, only he could sing that line, right, that song's about Israel-Palestine, right, and sort of,
41:39it's about the world's interaction with conflict, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's a good one
41:47to explain, actually, because although I find it quite funny, people getting upset about us,
41:53about an anti-religious line, you know, bearing in mind what we've had in our, you know,
42:00in the past, I've kind of been open about my views on organized religion, although
42:07I think I'd like to say that, like, I've never been, I've never been, like, actively against
42:15organized religion, or at least my views have definitely softened to it as I've grown older
42:19and stuff, and obviously when you're, like, young 20s and had my own reasons for, you know, rejecting
42:24that kind of stuff, I've got a lot of friends, I've got two friends in the last couple years
42:31both turned to faith, and I've seen how it's helped them profoundly, like,
42:39a guy in America who lost a family member and turned to it, I've seen how much that's helped
42:43them as a person, and a really close friend here in England as well that I never would have imagined,
42:48you know, told me, like, I just feel like I've got a purpose, and I think if organized religion
42:52can bring out the good in you, that's brilliant, and I think faith, while I don't think faith is
43:01necessary for contentment, I think having some kind of faith, even if it's just the belief that
43:09I believe there's, like, I believe in a higher power, I believe, I believe I have a guardian
43:13angel, I believe there's too many times where I should be dead, or I should be in prison, or I
43:16should, and something has pulled me out, I believe that. Would I die for that belief? I don't know,
43:22but there's nothing wrong, and it's, I think it's good and healthy to have those little beliefs,
43:26even if it's like, I believe in 1111 means everything's good today, you know, I mean,
43:30whatever it is, I think there's no harm, and it's good to have, to believe, because there's definitely
43:34something bigger, there's definitely something, whatever it is, whether it's conscious or not,
43:39it's, I personally believe in a higher power, and I would consider myself spiritual, so
43:46although, like, you know, anyone who needs our band to be religious, for them to like us, I'm
43:51sorry, that's not going to happen, but that song is not at all anything to do with a slighter
43:57God or Jesus or anything, it's, yeah, it's intended to be like a critique of the
44:04conflict in Israel and Palestine, and it's kind of, the whole idea is it's spoken from the
44:11imagined perspective of a war victim, so it's always coming from their mouthpiece, you know,
44:16the first verse is directly aimed at us, as the Western world, how we kind of, I feel like we,
44:25we just viewed wars through, like, the lens of, like, blame, and who deserved that, and oh,
44:31they had it coming, and like, well, they shouldn't have done that, we kind of view, like,
44:36a country as one unit, do you know what I mean, like, well, they had it coming, it's like, but
44:41all those people didn't ask for that, they didn't make the conscious decision altogether as, you
44:45know, same with, like, Russia or whatever, it's like, we go, well, Russia had that coming when
44:49they got blown up, whatever, it's like, but all those people didn't ask for that, yeah, they're
44:53guilty of nothing but being born in that country, and I think too often we just, you know, you sit
44:59around it, you know, enjoying dinner and wine, and you talk about, well, I think they should do this,
45:04and I think they should, and I think, well, if they didn't want that to happen, they shouldn't
45:08have invaded, you know what I mean, it's like, we're forgetting that there's real human beings
45:12that have got nothing to do with any of the decisions being made, so it's a critique of
45:17that kind of, like, the fact that we're never thinking about the victims, we're just kind of,
45:23like, viewing on this analytical basis of, like, well, they deserved it, and, you know, and rarely
45:29are we given any kind of constructive or helpful, we're not going, oh, I want to help, I want to
45:33change, we're just, minute silence, nice one, do you know what I mean, it's like, and then the
45:38second verse with the lyric that offended a lot of people is this war victim hitting back at the
45:46powers that be, the whole idea is of the Jesus killing twice, and it's like, is this kind of
45:55meant to encapsulate this kind of anger and despair at the people in power that even if someone as
46:00significant as Jesus returns, just kill him again, because anyone that comes and advocates for peace
46:07or change or opposes moral, you know, beliefs, just nearly always, every time we've seen that in
46:13history, they're just quashed, you know what I mean, so it's the idea, obviously the lyric was influenced
46:19by the location of the conflict, do you know what I mean, this idea that if he was to return, just kill
46:24him again, because you don't want anyone, the same way as the, I'm sorry did my back hurt your knife
46:32lyric is the idea is like, I'm sorry if I've upset you because I've called you out for what you're
46:36doing, people in power usually just shift the blame onto the oppressed and go and get angry at
46:42them for calling them out for their oppressive nature, do you know what I mean, so yeah,
46:46the whole song's definitely more, well, it is about, it's not to do with religion, to be honest, the only
46:53reason Jesus came up is because of the location of the conflict, so yeah, I think, I feel like
47:01it's kind of important to that, because when I asked Spencer to sing it and he said, well, I'm
47:07not religious anymore, so I don't care and I'm like, yeah, but I want you to know that it's not
47:12just, it's not just for shock, it's not just like, it's not just to be edgy, you know what I mean, there's
47:16a reason here and I think if anyone goes back and reads those lyrics at all, it's actually
47:20quite obvious. Yeah, well, it speaks to the theme of the record, it's a human record, it's about
47:25progress, it's about change, it's about finding peace, so I just wanted to end by saying if
47:31Post Human Part One was about scorching the earth, we're all fucked, we're all doomed, this is a record
47:36about finding peace, finding progress, finding answers, where does the art go next? That's an
47:42interesting one, because it's, like I said, the whole record is, there's a proper narrative there,
47:50that actually explains the first record and the whole progress. I've realised what I've been doing
47:54for years is building this world in my head and not telling anyone about it and this is the first
48:00record I'm going to tell everyone, but I also don't want to bore anyone who just wants to hear the
48:07music, so that narrative, that whole thing for everything is hidden and I guess if you want
48:14to know more about that, join our discord because they're all figuring out all the secrets and clues
48:19of the story and we're constantly, I'm writing every day and like unfolding everything and
48:24it goes far back, goes past even survival horror, so that narrative is going to feed into the next
48:33one and I can't, it's, I don't want to give all away because the way the record ends for me
48:39personally is realising that I've got to leave, I've got to end a lot of relationships, I've got
48:46to end up like, I've got to leave my own country, I've got to get away and I've got to kind of kill
48:51a part of myself and realising I can't heal in the place that made me sick and that's why that last
48:56song on the record feels a bit like a suicide note or a goodbye letter, it's me realising like,
49:02it's like a bittersweet ending of like, I'm fully on this path now of healing but it's gonna,
49:09it's gonna mean I've got to kind of kill a part of myself but what that means in the narrative,
49:18it kind of leaves it on a cliffhanger in a way and I think just like this record's turned into like
49:24such a bigger beast than I ever thought it would do, it's be like a bit, it's a bit too soon to
49:31tell you exactly where it's gonna go, I've got an idea, I've got an idea of what the next record
49:36not only sounds like but where it is and it's not in a good place but it's,
49:47it's like it's all to play for almost, like it's, I mean this probably sounds like gobbledygook
49:51because you don't know what I'm talking about but I guess it's just, it's four records and
49:55this is like that third act usually where things go south, you know, so but we'll see,
50:04anything could change, just like this last record could change, anything could change so we'll see.
50:09And it'll come when it comes so pipe down.
50:12Hopefully.
50:13Olly, thank you so much, man.
50:14Cheers.