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00:00Hello, Rafe Blackburn, National World Politics Editor here at The Spin Room for the BBC Leader
00:14Debate where Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak will take on each other in a few hours.
00:20Behind me, you know, they're a politician from both parties. Nearby, two party leaders
00:27have come to each other for the final debate of this election, and it's really a quarter
00:35break for Rishi Sunak. He's still languishing behind in the polls. He's been hit by all
00:41sorts of scandals from the D-Day saga to the current Gamblegate, which is pulling in more
00:47and more Tory candidates and aides. So expect him to come out fighting lots of attacks on
00:54Keir Starmer in a similar way to the first debate, and lots of attack on these alleged
01:02tax rises which Labour are going to bring in. Keir Starmer won't rock the boat. However,
01:07he needs to make sure that this is an opportunity for him to put across Labour's message and
01:13get rid of this impression that people do not know what he stands for. And I think it's
01:19likely that he is going to be more aggressive in terms of denying the Tories attack lines
01:25this time around.
01:27Good evening, gentlemen. Mr Sunak, I think you made a fair job of being Chancellor, but
01:34you're a pretty mediocre Prime Minister. Sakhir, I think that your strings are being pulled
01:42by very senior members of the Labour Party. Are you two really the best we've got to be
01:51the next Prime Minister of our great country?
02:01Because I suspect that Robert Blackstock knows your background. He certainly knows that you've
02:07been Chancellor. He's probably familiar with your arguments. And he still says, are you two
02:11really the best we've got to be the next Prime Minister of our great country? Now, polling does
02:15suggest that there's no great enthusiasm for either of you. Do you recognise that? Do you hear
02:21it on the campaign trail? Are you aware of that?
02:24Michelle, that's what I said. I said to Rob, I recognise his frustrations.
02:27It's more personal than that, isn't it? He's talking about both of you.
02:30But there's a choice for everyone. There's a choice for everyone. Keir Starmer talks about
02:35change. You don't get change unless you've got a plan to deliver change.
02:39I think this question of enthusiasm is really important that you put to us, because I'm not
02:44surprised that after 14 years of this, people feel that the hope's been beaten out of them,
02:50because the country is in such a state. They've had loads of promises made to them at the last
02:54election about what would happen, which haven't been delivered on. That does beat the hope out of
02:59people. The very first question was about integrity in politics. And again, people haven't seen
03:04that integrity. You've had Partygate, you've had the breach of COVID rules, you've had the
03:09contracts for COVID, the instinct of some people to think the first thing in COVID I'm going to do
03:14is try to make money. Same with the gambling commission nonsense over the last few weeks.
03:19So this is an opportunity to restore that hope. I don't think we can do that by making grand
03:26promises of things that can't be delivered. I think it's the ordinary hope of working people.
03:31My family was working class. The ordinary hope of getting on yourself, getting on for your
03:36family, getting on for your community and getting on for your country. It has to be rooted if we're
03:40going to restore hope, in my view.
03:43Behind me you'll be able to see front benches, cabinet ministers, shadow cabinet members talking to
03:50broadcasters and the media about the debate we just had between Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak.
03:56James Cleverley, the Home Secretary, is wandering around as is Wed Streeting, the Shadow Health
04:01Secretary. And they're trying to put their spin of debate between Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and
04:08Keir Starmer. And it was a debate like the first one on ITV, where Sunak tried to bring everything
04:15once again back to tax. Earlier on in the day, the Conservatives put out a tweet in which they said
04:21what is Labour going to do? I'm going to put up tax. They wrote tax thousands and thousands of times.
04:26And if you watch the debate, I'm not sure who said it more, either that tweet or Rishi Sunak.
04:34Every question was rerouted back to I'm going to cut your taxes and Keir Starmer is going to put taxes up.
04:40He even answered a question about Brexit by talking about taxes. So it's a very clear plan.
04:46One perhaps shows that the Tories have slightly run out of ideas if all they can do is say Labour is going
04:52to put up taxes, something which Labour says it won't do at least on income tax, VAT and national insurance.
04:58But it's certainly a clear line. The problem for Rishi Sunak is that it doesn't appear as if the public are listening.
05:04In the last two fiscal events before the election, the Tories cut national insurance twice.
05:10And throughout the campaign, they've spent the entire time talking about tax.
05:15However, the polls have not closed and the gambling saga has continued to dominate the headlines,
05:22as it did for much of the debate. For Keir Starmer, he's often quite long in his answers.
05:30At one point, he seemed to go through his whole CV. I thought he was best when he was talking really about kind of hope
05:36and aspiration and how he wants to change Britain and how he believes Britain can really change.
05:42It's more a message of hope, whereas Rishi Sunak kept repeating this word surrender.
05:46He said, do you want to surrender your taxes to Labour, your family finances to Labour?
05:51He even said, do you want to surrender your council to Labour?
05:55Very negative connotations. So Keir Starmer more focusing on hope, Rishi Sunak more focusing on fear.
06:03I would give the debate a bit of a score draw. However, as we all know, I think it's likely Labour is going to get into power.
06:11But the interesting contrast there between hope and fear, I think, plays more into Keir Starmer's hands.