An Atheist Debates with Dr Zakir
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LearningTranscript
00:00Good morning, Mr Zakir Naik. My name is James Ishtamani. First of all, I want to thank you
00:05for what you're doing here. I've really taken a lot away from here, I'm sure. My question
00:11is on your point number three. Actually, I have three questions, if you could be so kind.
00:16But on point number three, first of all, I felt that it was very evasive, your answer.
00:22But what I'm going to ask you is very simple. When you talk about terrorism, when you talk
00:27about Islam, now this is a very simple, straightforward question, I hope I can get a straightforward
00:33answer. With what's happening in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, just to name a few, I'm
00:39not stereotyping, I hope no one takes offense. But when you hear on the news that a woman
00:44is cooking food for her kids and then a suicide bomber comes and kills them, I want to ask
00:50you a simple question. What is that? Is that Islam or is that people who don't understand
00:57what Islam is and they have their own perception of Islam? And please, let me ask you one more
01:04thing. Can you give me an answer that is not, in World War I or something, there were more
01:09people that died or this is all propaganda and these are Americans killing people and
01:14that's not…
01:15I'll give you an answer and then you can pass your comment, inshallah.
01:16Yeah, I want to…
01:17Hear my answer, hear my answer, then you can pass your comment. The brother has the question
01:22that years in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, a woman cooking food, a suicide bomber comes
01:27and blows up and kills. As far as Islam, what the media is saying, forget about it. I'll
01:33give you ruling of Islam. Whether what the media says right or wrong, Quran says in Surah
01:37Maida, chapter number 5, verse number 32, if anyone kills any other human being, unless
01:42it be for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, it is as though he has killed
01:47the whole of humanity. Any person kills any other human being, whether Muslim or non-Muslim,
01:53unless it be for murder or for spreading corruption in the land, it is as though he has killed
01:57the whole of humanity. And if any human being saves other human being, it is as though he
02:01has saved the whole nation. So according to the Quran, killing any single innocent human
02:07being is prohibited. If a suicide bomber comes and kills a woman who is cooking innocent,
02:13it is 100% prohibited, whether done in Pakistan or Afghanistan or America or Dubai. Is the
02:18answer clear?
02:19Okay, the answer is clear.
02:20100% wrong. Whoever is doing it, whoever is doing it, whoever is doing it, whether namesake
02:27Muslim or American or propaganda, whoever is doing it, it is totally prohibited.
02:32Okay.
02:33Fine, so is it clear answer?
02:34That is clear.
02:35100% clear?
02:36Whether you do, anyone does?
02:37So that is wrong, yeah?
02:38100% wrong. It is as though he has killed the whole of humanity. There is no other scripture
02:44that I know of today. There is no other scripture that I know of today that gives the statement
02:49that if you kill one human being, it is as though you killed the whole humanity, except
02:53the Quran. There is no other scripture that I know which says that if you save one human
02:57being, you have saved the whole of humanity. No other scripture.
03:00Perfect. Now can I ask you something?
03:01Yes, you are most welcome.
03:02You told me this is wrong, yeah?
03:03100% wrong.
03:05Fine, fine, fine. Now, why are you here? The way I look at it, all of these are innocent,
03:11loving people here. Why isn't this convention somewhere like Afghanistan and Pakistan trying
03:16to teach people that what they are doing is not Islam and is just some brainwashed chaos?
03:23And that they are going to go to hell and they are not going to go to heaven for killing
03:27innocent people, for the 911 attacks, for the London bombings. Innocent people died.
03:32If I don't like you and I kill you, it's more justified than if I don't like somebody.
03:37If I don't like Jews and I go and kill innocent Americans with families, why don't you go
03:42and educate these people and have a better cause, rather than converting four or five
03:46people here?
03:47MashaAllah.
03:48And save thousands of lives.
03:49Brother, I asked a very good question. He's telling me, why don't I go to Pakistan, to
03:55Afghanistan and spread this message and prevent this? Brother, I go every day, even now I'm
04:00going there. I'm on the satellite. We have Peace TV reaching hundred million people.
04:05This is how much?
04:06That's what I wanted to hear.
04:07This is twenty, thirty thousand people. The audience here will be twenty, thirty thousand
04:13people, not more than that. You see the recording? Why do we do the recording? So that I can
04:17go to Pakistan, I can go to Afghanistan, I can go to even America. And my lectures on
04:22jihad and terrorism, the maximum viewership, it has got more than hundred million people.
04:28And it is meant for the full world. I'm giving here, it is being recorded, it's being telecast.
04:33The thing is, I cannot force anyone, the point of those who don't accept my message. Can
04:36I force you? Am I forcing you? Am I forcing you to accept my message?
04:41No, no, no, you're not forcing me.
04:42How can I force the people of Pakistan? How can I force the people of Afghanistan? At
04:47the same time, at the same time, at the same time, I also tell, the innocent people being
04:52killed, I agree with you. What's the numbers? You said, you know, four, five people converting
04:58here is better than telling that. My job is to deliver the message.
05:02Fazaqrinna man tamzaqir.
05:03It's mentioned in the Quran, Surah Ghashah, chapter eighty-eight, verse number twenty-one,
05:07twenty-two. Our job is to deliver the message. We can't convert hearts. Allah told the Prophet,
05:13you are not the manager of affairs, it is Allah who gives the hidayah. I can talk, I
05:19cannot convert. It is Almighty God who converts. I can talk, whether they understand or not
05:24in Pakistan, it is Almighty God.
05:28Coming to a basic question. According to me, you should see my cassette. Is terrorism Muslim
05:32monopoly? Is terrorism Muslim monopoly? If you see that cassette, your mind, your vision
05:38of terrorism will improve. Time does not permit me to give a talk here again, and I'll tell
05:42you for sure. According to me, the terrorists are mainly the politicians. It is they who
05:49create this. You go anywhere, you know in India, all the riots that took place, indirectly
05:56or directly, it's the politicians. Babri Masjid. Why did Babri Masjid riot take place? Why?
06:01Because of the politicians. Gujarat riot. Politicians. What happened about 9-11? See
06:06my cassette. It was inside job. According to 72 scientists of America, they say 9-11
06:12cannot be done by 19 Arabs. It's impossible. It was inside job. 72 scientists of America,
06:18Arabs are kidnapped. Inside job. Who did it? George Bush? Afghanistan. Wait, let me
06:24complete my answer. Afghanistan. Thousands of people being killed. They are sending cluster
06:31bombs. Cowards they are. Thousands of people. You are talking about suicide bombs? That
06:36is haram. I'm not condoning it, I'm condemning it. But the bigger thing to be condemned is
06:40the Americans sending their fighters in Afghanistan, killing thousands of people. In Iraq, killing
06:45thousands of people. Saddam Hussein. I'm not a fan of Saddam Hussein. He has done mistakes.
06:53The people of Iraq, they were fed up of Saddam Hussein. But after America came there, they
06:57are more fed up of the Americans than Saddam Hussein. That does not justify, just because
07:05Saddam Hussein was bad, that does not justify America to come and take over Iraq. Why are
07:10they doing it? For the money, for the oil. What is their main interest? It's the oil.
07:17Who created Taliban? When Russia came, the Americans supported the Afghans created Taliban.
07:23Now they want to take over the fighting back. Who is the creation? Americans. The biggest
07:29terrorist according to me in the history, George Bush. Now he's no longer there. George
07:33Bush number one. I'm with you on that. Sorry? I'm with you on that. You're with me on that.
07:37So I'm also going to America. I'm even going to America live and on satellite, giving the
07:43message to Americans. I was the first person that I know of in the public after 9-11 in
07:48Australia. I said, I'm a fundamentalist and I consider George Bush to be the biggest terrorist.
07:52This came in headlines. In December, in December 2001, when I gave a talk in Australia, when
08:03the consul general asked me, that what do you consider, who's a terrorist? I said, George
08:07Bush number one. It came as headline. Dr. Zakir Naik calls himself a fundamentalist
08:11and considers George Bush to be terrorist number one. Now every Tom, Dick and Harry
08:15is calling him a terrorist. At that time, no one had the guts. What we realized, we
08:21are speaking the truth. Now whether George Bush, you know many people say, when I gave
08:25a talk in London on terrorism, very good talk, people enjoyed. A youngster comes and says,
08:30death to George Bush, death to George Bush. Full talk of mind gone. Our beloved prophet
08:36Umar sallallahu alaihi wasallam, there were two staunchest enemy of Islam. Both were called
08:41Umar, Umarain. The prophet prayed to Allah that give hidayah to one of these two Umar
08:47and Umar bin Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, who was the second caliph of Islam.
08:51Allah gave hidayah, who was the staunchest enemy of Islam, became the staunchest supporter.
08:55Therefore I said, may Allah give hidayah to George Bush. I cannot. I can speak. I
09:03cannot give hidayah. I can tell him what he's doing is wrong. I don't want to kill him.
09:08I want him to accept Islam. Killing is useless. What's the use of killing? Accepting is better.
09:15So that's the reason we are giving the message. Those whose hearts are opening, they're accepting.
09:20Inshallah, God will open your heart also one day. When God opens your heart one day,
09:26I cannot do it. I can give the message. I can't force you. Unless God gives you, unless
09:32you strive. If you strive, God will help you. If you don't strive, your heart will not be
09:35opened. Some people ask questions only for questioning. But the true gentleman, when
09:45he gets the answer, he accepts it. You know, people just ask for questioning. You spoke
09:50very loudly. I'm asking, I gave a speech. I said so many things. Do you agree with it
09:55or not? Yes, I agree with it. Are you a Hindu? I'm actually your favorite. I'm an atheist.
10:02Atheist, mashaAllah. That's what I heard you enjoy. You're atheist. You're my favorite.
10:07No, I'm not your friend, but I was told that you like having debates with such. Yes, yes,
10:11faith, atheist. Okay, brother, you're an atheist. Fine. I would like to congratulate
10:17you. You'd like to what? I'd like to congratulate you. You know why? Why? The reason I congratulate
10:24you because all the others, all the human beings, they're blindly following. Father
10:29is a Christian, son is a Christian. His parents are Hindu, he's a Hindu. Many of the Muslim
10:36parents are Muslims. You are thinking. I don't know if your father was an atheist. No. Ah,
10:42good. So you're thinking. These are the people, they worship this almighty God who falls down
10:46and breaks. So you are thinking, and the reason I congratulate you is because you
10:51have said the first part of the Islamic shahada, la ilaha, there is no God. You have already
10:59said half the Kalima. But not the second part. They have said the full Kalima, you are half
11:05Muslim now. Atheist means half Kalima, you know, la ilaha. Only thing I have to do is
11:11which I shall do inshallah. I'm congratulating you because you have agreed to the other people
11:21who believe in wrong gods. First I have to spend half my time in trying to convince them
11:25the God you're worshipping is wrong. You have already agreed there's no God. Only thing I have
11:29to do is prove to you about Allah, which I shall do inshallah. Brother, suppose there's equipment
11:35which is bought. Equipment is bought in front of you. No one in the world has ever seen. No human
11:42being has seen is bought in front of you. And if I ask you the question, who is the first person
11:46who will be able to tell you the mechanism of that equipment? I've heard this speech and it's
11:52the creator. It's the creator. So the creator of that equipment will be the first person who will
11:58be able to tell you the mechanism of that object. You may say creator, you may say manufacturer,
12:03you may say inventor, you may say maker, whatever it is somewhat similar. Now I'm asking
12:06you a question. How did this universe come into existence? How did this universe come into
12:12existence? You're going to now mention the big bang and all that. No, I'm asking you. Yeah. Don't
12:17tell me what I'm going to mention. I want to know what. If you are. No, you are. I'm asking you
12:23according to your knowledge. No, the thing is I've actually heard this speech before. I'm actually a
12:26good fan of yours. You know that. MashaAllah, you're a good fan. Good fan, theoretical or practical?
12:32If you're a practical fan, you will follow. If I'm wrong, you correct me. If I'm right,
12:36you join me. No, I only learned about you about two weeks back actually. Fine. So in two weeks,
12:40you became a great fan. MashaAllah, I'm very happy about it. In two weeks, you learn about me. That
12:45means you know. You know about the creation, the big bang, which we came to know recently. Quran
12:51mentioned 14 years ago in Surah Ambiya, chapter 21, verse number 30. I don't know the verses,
12:58but you know that. Similarly, we did not know that the earth was spherical. We came to know
13:02recently. Quran mentioned 14 years ago in Surah Nazia, chapter 7, verse number 30, it is spherical.
13:07We thought first the light of the moon is its own light. Quran mentions 14 years ago the light of
13:12the moon is not its own light, reflected light, which we came to know recently. Who could have
13:15mentioned this? There's biology. There is water cycle, which you learned in school. There is
13:20embryology. There is genetics. My question is who could have mentioned all these things in the
13:24Quran? So if you have heard this, you also know the answer. Who could have mentioned in the Quran?
13:30Same answer. The creator. The creator. This creator who has mentioned in the Quran, we call
13:37it Allah. So that means you believe in the creator. Who could have mentioned this in the Quran? The
13:44creator. The creator who created the human beings, the person who created all this universe. It can't
13:50be a human being who writes all this. So now do you believe in a creator?
13:56Well, there are different perspectives, you see, a person has. You can think about science
14:01or you can think about God. Now the debate is which to follow. We can follow both. I believe
14:06in both. As I said, I'm a student of science also. Also, I'm a believer in God. As my opening
14:12question stated, what I asked about terrorism, I believe you also know those are certain facts
14:18that will come to terrorism later on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are talking about that. Why I don't
14:22believe. Brother wait, brother wait. You asked me a direct question, suicide bombing, killing
14:27innocent wrong. I gave a direct answer. Now I'm asking you a direct question, you give me a direct
14:31answer. You asked me, you are happy with my answer. No beating around the bush. I'm asking you
14:36directly, when you believe in the creator, why don't you accept the creator? I'm asking you
14:40directly. You asked me a direct question in front of 30,000 people, I gave a direct answer. I'm
14:46asking you a direct question. You didn't believe in God, I congratulate you. Now I prove to you
14:50that the creator wrote the Quran. Now I'm asking the question, why don't you believe in the creator?
14:54I didn't say that I believe in the creator. I was just mimicking your speech, which I watched.
15:00Brother, I didn't ask you to come here to mimic me, please. Did I ask you to come and mimic me?
15:06I asked you who wrote, you said creator. I didn't say, did I say that? No. Even in my speech I don't
15:12say. That's what you said. Even I didn't say, the questioner said. That means you haven't seen my
15:17speech correctly. Like how you are telling when I ask an atheist, he gives the reply creator, not I.
15:23Not I. That means I haven't seen my speech correctly. It is a person like you, who I might
15:28have asked the question to, he gave the reply. Like how you gave the reply now. Did I ask you
15:33to mimic or did I ask you to give answer from your heart? So that means you are not a very truthful
15:38person. You asked me a question, brother. I gave answer directly from my heart, correct? I'm asking
15:45a question, you gave the answer, now you are saying that I'm mimicking. Okay, if I say the creator is
15:50what you want to hear, now. Not what I want to hear. No, no, no. Listen, hypothetically here.
15:55Not hypothetically. If we say that I agree to the creator, now what if I say that I agree to the
16:01creator of what was written, but I don't believe what was written justifies everything. You're
16:07giving me six facts. You're telling me six things, but there's a lot in life that's not
16:12written there. There's nothing about gravity or you're just telling me about light on the moon.
16:18Very good, very good, very good. The brother says he believes in the creator, but everything is not
16:25there. Brother, this book, the Quran is not a book of signs. S-C-I-E-N-C-E. It's a book of signs. S-I-G-N-S.
16:37It's a book of ayaats. There are more than 6,000 signs, 6,000 ayaats in the Quran, out of which
16:45more than a thousand speak about signs. It's not a book of signs. Two plus two is equal to four,
16:49that's not written there. But the beauty of it is what is written, we did not know. You mean me
16:55didn't ask me? The creator wrote. If it had everything of signs, it would be a voluminous
16:59book, as big as the World Trade Center. Or maybe it's Burj Dubai tallest building now. It is not a
17:04book of signs, brother. Please don't misunderstand. It is to prove to the scientist that this is the
17:09word of God, this is the word of creator. What do you have to tell me? To disprove it, you have to
17:13take out a mistake in the Quran. Quran says in Surah Nisa chapter 4, verse number 82,
17:18A-fa-la yadadabbaroonal quran, walaw kaana minindi ghairillah, la wajudu feeq tilafan kaseera.
17:24Do they not consider the Quran with care? Had it been from anyone besides Allah, there would have
17:29been contradictions in it, there have been mistakes in it. So for you to disprove the Quran to be the
17:33word of Allah, you have to take out mistakes. That is the reason I said, please come up and take out
17:38mistakes in the Quran. Why? If it's wrong, I will leave it. If it's right, you join me. It's a two-way,
17:46not one-way. But how old is the Quran? I don't exactly know. The Quran is approximately 1400
17:54years old. Okay, and how long have human beings existed on this planet? Human beings, millions
17:59of years. Millions of years. I'm not challenging you, don't get this wrong. No, I like people
18:04challenging me. I like people challenging me. Okay, if you want to challenge, then I'll take
18:08that step then. Okay, what is the reason that, first of all, I believe Christianity is older than
18:16Islam? No, no, you're wrong. Christianity is not older than Islam. What's the difference? Islam
18:22is there since time immemorial, since man set foot on the earth. From the first human being,
18:28it's already there. Prophet Muhammad is the last and final messenger. He came 1400 years ago,
18:34he was the last messenger. Quran is the last revelation, not the first revelation. This is
18:39the last testament. Otherwise, Islam is there since time immemorial. Jesus Christ was a Muslim
18:45according to the Quran. Abraham was a Muslim according to the Quran. Peace be upon them all.
18:48So Islam means peace acquired by submitting our will to Almighty God. It is there since time
18:53immemorial. Okay, so getting to the point, I asked you the timescale that the Quran has existed and
19:02the timescale of human beings. Not timescale of Quran, Islam is there since time immemorial. No,
19:07no, of the Quran, the book, the holy book. Not Islam, we can say Islam existed for forever, but
19:14why was the Quran placed on earth afterwards? Very good, very good question. And I also wanted
19:21to ask you something I always wanted to know about. That is the Darwin's theory of evolution.
19:28I know there's a lot of controversy on that, but do you believe in evolution or you believe
19:35man was placed directly? And the whole thing of apes, the science that has proved that human beings
19:41emanated from apes, do you agree with that? That's a true question. Sorry about that. No problem.
19:48True question. Do you believe in Darwin's theory? Science has proved that human beings have been
19:53evaluated from apes. Do you believe in, do you believe that human beings are placed? And second
19:57question, why was Quran revealed 14 years back? Why not before? Two questions regarding a correction
20:02in your question. Science hasn't proved that human beings have evolved from apes. It is Darwin's
20:08theory, not Darwin's fact. It's a theory. There is no book today, there is no book today on the face
20:16of the earth which says the fact of evolution. It's theory. The fact of the origin of human
20:22beings. No, it's theory. And for your information, Darwin himself said that there were missing links
20:28in his theory. If you read his book on the origin of species, he writes in this on a ship by the
20:34name of HMS Beagle. He goes to an island by the name of Calatropis and there he sees birds were
20:40pecking in niches, in holes. Based on the holes they pecked, the beak of the birds became short
20:45and long. Based on that observation, he propounded the theory of natural selection. He wrote a letter
20:51to his friend Thomas Thompton in 1861 that I have no proof for my theory of evolution, but because
20:58it helps me in giving replies to embryology, to genetics, that's the reason I'm propounding. He had
21:05no proof on it. That's the reason in our school, you know, to joke around, we used to say, if you
21:10were present at Darwin's time, Darwin would have been proved right. Time to infinite, I'm telling
21:14he's a ape, he's a monkey. There were missing links. Furthermore, all the three stages today,
21:20science in advance, we have come to know that the first stage, the Australopithecus,
21:24and the Iceman. The next stage that we have, Neanderthal man, Cro-Magnon. All these stages
21:30that we have today of the human being that we found, there's no link between them. Certain
21:36things what Darwin said, that life is evolved from water, I agree with it. Quran says that
21:44we have created every living thing from water, I believe in that. But saying that we have evolved
21:48from one species to the other is a hypothesis. According to molecular biologist Hanses Craig,
21:54he said it is letting imagination run too wild to say that we have been evolved from apes.
22:00If that was true, today we'll find someone in between man and human being. You only find in
22:04mythology. You don't find anywhere in the world a monkey man, do you find? So what, do you think
22:10evolution has stopped now? It is a hypothesis and most of the scientists today disagree with it.
22:16There is only a small negligible percentage which yet believe in Darwin's theory. Majority
22:22of the scientists have already disproved Darwin's theory. I feel your knowledge of
22:27science is not up to date, brother. But Dr. Naik. Not but, wait. You're asking me a question,
22:33I'm replying. Then we have to give chance to others. You've already asked five, six questions.
22:37Let's do justice. No, I thought you were just having fun. Sorry? I thought you were being
22:40entertained. Having fun? Ah, I'm... Besides entertaining you, I want to entertain the other
22:44non-Muslim brothers. If all non-Muslims get up, I'll come back to you. So what we realize,
22:48Darwin's theory, brother, your knowledge on science is weak. We say Adam and Eve were the
22:53first human beings. That's what the Quran says. Furthermore, regarding your second question.
22:58Okay. I have to answer your question? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't answered second question,
23:01you want to put the third question. That means you aren't listening to me. Oh,
23:04you've forgotten you've asked two questions. No, no, I've asked you the first one.
23:07That means you're a good questioner, huh? Now you ask me the question, why was Quran revealed 1400
23:13years back? Why not before? You know my son? He wants to become a doctor. He's telling me,
23:18father, abba, why do you put me in school and college? Why don't you put me in medical college
23:23directly? I said, son, first go to nursery, then go to primary, then go to secondary school,
23:30then go to college, then go to medical college. I can't put him in medical college directly. Why?
23:35He should know the basics. Similarly, Almighty God is our creator. He kept on sending other
23:41revelations. Almighty God, our creator thought 1400 years back was the right time that human
23:47beings could absorb this message. He revealed it. He's our creator. He knows better than you and me.
23:551400 years back, he revealed his last message, the Quran to the last and final message of Muhammad
24:02and it's mentioned in the Quran in Surah Maida, chapter number five, verse number three.
24:05On this day, have I perfected my religion for you, the perfect form, and have completed my favor on
24:11you, you taught the human beings, and has chosen for you Islam. After this, nothing new can be
24:16added into the basics of Islam. Nothing can be subtracted. That's it. So Almighty God knows
24:22when we can imbibe the message of the Quran. And this is the last testament, last messenger,
24:28Prophet Muhammad. No other messenger will come after this. Hope this answers your question,
24:32and I hope that you even accept, besides being my fan, you also accept my teachings,
24:37inshallah. Maybe next time when you come here. Maybe next time. You tell me, I'll come again
24:41tomorrow. I'm flying tomorrow. I'll come back fast for you alone.