Karen Read Jury Divided on Verdict Again_360p
During their 5th day of deliberations, the jury sent another note to the judge saying "we find ourselves deeply divided" again. Judge Cannone gave the Tuey-Rodriguez instruction, urging the jurors to come to a verdict in the Killer or Cover-Up Murder Trial.
Transcript
00:00Welcome back to Court TV Live. I'm Julia Janee and for Ted Rollins this morning
00:04we are following that breaking news out of Dedham, Massachusetts deadlocked for
00:08the second time. That's what the jury is telling the court in the case against
00:13Karen Reed. We've paused the deliberation clock 22 hours and 36 minutes. It's day
00:19five of deliberation and we are here watching that ceiling fan waiting for
00:23movement from the court because we know the judge is going to bring in the jury
00:26to talk to them again. Still with us here in studio Julie Grant sticking
00:32around Court TV anchor and Julie you were just telling the viewers before the
00:35break about why what the judge is going to say now is different from what she
00:40told him on Friday. Because on Friday she basically said we know you've been
00:44working hard, take a lunch break, clear your head and keep working. Very short to
00:48the point and now she's going to say something very different. Exactly Julia
00:53so it was too soon for the dynamite charge right. You've seen it, we've seen
00:56it here on Court TV in many jurisdictions that's known as the Allen
00:59charge. That was the case on point and many jurisdictions refer to it as such
01:03in Massachusetts as you know Julia it's to a Rodriguez and so the dynamite
01:07charge is meant to spark unanimity in that jury room because we want the jury
01:13to reach a unanimous decision. That is the goal in every criminal trial the way
01:18our system set up and when there is deadlocking as indicated on Friday it was
01:22so early as the judge said look you haven't been out that long, now it's day
01:27five, now we're over the 22 hour mark, well over it, now it's time to say okay
01:33reconsider your own position and think about the positions of your fellow
01:38jurors. So essentially it's a it's a charge of open-mindedness of
01:42self-reflection of considering
01:45all of the circumstances because the judge will hear her
01:49remind them you are in the best position to come to a unanimous decision
01:53not anybody else. You're the best jury and you've been doing a great job is what we usually
01:57hear from the judge. You're right. And there's that line right because the court can't go
02:01so far as to force this jury so that's why there are these limitations to make
02:06sure that the judge only reads and says certain things during this all-important
02:11moment where a jury is saying we just can't do it. You can't put them in the
02:14room and force them because it would be prejudicial right if you're in this room
02:19you can't leave and you have to come to a verdict there's going to be people
02:22making decisions that aren't within what our standards are with the legal
02:26standards are for deliberation. The idea is to consider everything make sure
02:31you're considering all of the viewpoints of your fellow jurors considering your
02:35own and then also being mindful of your own intelligence the evidence in front
02:42of you and knowing that other people from the community just like yourselves
02:47members of the jury will have to be picked if we have to retry this. And one
02:51thing they won't learn is the expense. They're not going to hear anything from the
02:54judge about how expensive it would be to do this whole thing all over again that
02:59will not be discussed but what will be discussed is the fact that they are in
03:04the best position to come to a finding here Julian. That's important and what we
03:08were just showing you was a look outside of that courtroom courthouse
03:11there in Norfolk County Virginia all of the parties have already come inside we
03:18understand they may be waiting for someone the last thing that we heard is
03:21that the judge was going to bring in the jury I'm a bit surprised that the jury
03:25wasn't easier to get into the courtroom it's been about five to ten minutes now
03:30let's bring in our guest who's standing by to discuss this more Josh Schiffer
03:34joining us from Atlanta Georgia criminal defense attorney Josh you've been
03:37analyzing this case from the very beginning I want to get your take on
03:41whether it's strange to you or concerning that the jury only asked one
03:45substantive question about evidence I mean we see in some of these really big
03:49cases questions about everything they want readbacks of testimony they want to
03:53look at different evidence closer even if they thought they wouldn't get it
03:57even asking the judge to talk more about the jury instructions and perhaps the
04:02law we only heard one request for a search report the judge said you have
04:06all of the evidence and we haven't heard anything else of substance on the
04:10case from them it leads me to believe that they were absolutely certain and
04:15confident with the evidence that they had and the disagreement isn't based on
04:20some misinterpretation or anything like that it's hard obviously to predict
04:26what's going on inside such an opaque room but what it appears to be from my
04:31position is that there's a very firm divide on the vote and that vote didn't
04:37move when the judge came out and spoke last week whether the judge or whether
04:41the jury moves now that they're gonna hear this variation of the dynamite
04:46charge just like Julie called first thing this morning that's gonna be
04:49really the end game either they go back there and make the decision hey everybody
04:56we need to get together or it's gonna be a full and final hanging of the jury
05:01they aren't gonna be able to come back with a unanimous verdict and that leaves
05:05the judge with so with very little options yeah Julie let's talk about that
05:09that case because we talked about the ruling we talked about kind of how this
05:13will play out but in your experience have you seen a change for jurors after
05:18the dynamite charge after the judge actually goes through the way it's
05:24worded every state can be different as far as how they were there but their
05:29version of the Allen charge but how often do you see a change or do they
05:32typically come back still and say yeah we still can't reach a unanimous verdict
05:37I've seen it I've seen both I mean you know so as far as cases on court TV
05:44we've had this circumstance before we have had it I'd have to look back at the
05:48exact cases but I want to say there was a California case where we saw the
05:52dynamite charge given by the judge so it does happen and the idea is that there
05:57will be unanimity reached and another important point to clarify here is that
06:03we know that there can be a mixed verdict you know there could there can
06:08be there's a lot of ways this can go right there it's not the jury has
06:16options here is what I want to say the jury has options it's not only one
06:19charge multiple charges and then lesser included so exactly Julia there's a lot
06:26they could split the baby as we say it if everyone is split on just not guilty
06:31versus guilty of something then they could come to a lesser included charge
06:36to perhaps get those who are on one side to the other side but sometimes if you
06:41feel firmly about someone being not guilty it's gonna be very hard to move
06:45them to the other side the Josh your thought on that this if we learn the
06:50split inside of this jury room the court no doubt will know if they ask how
06:57many are on one side of the other Julie mentioned it this morning on opening
07:00statements that the judge would likely bring in the foreperson to see what is
07:06going on inside of the room perhaps the numbers perhaps what could help and if
07:11there are any problems but they can't go too far with that but if there's a
07:15mistrial the judge declares a mistrial how important is that split to what
07:18happens next well the splits really important because of how the litigants
07:23and the stakeholders are going to interpret how they put their case
07:26together what portions of the defense landed the way that they wanted and
07:31there's always an opportunity to pull and speak with a jury after they've been
07:35discharged of their duties what I think y'all are talking about right now is
07:40something we hammer all the time in criminal defense there are two fears of
07:45jurors jurors are afraid of wrongful conviction and jurors are afraid of
07:50wrongful acquittal that's really the driving force and when you look at a
07:56intractable juror Josh I'm going to ask you to pause we have movement inside of
08:00the courtroom so we are going to go in and listen to the judge
08:05all right so jurors I am in receipt of your note judge Kenoni despite our
08:22commitment to the duty entrusted to us we find ourselves deeply divided by
08:27fundamental differences in our opinions and state of mind the divergence in our
08:33views are not rooted in a lack of understanding or effort but deeply held
08:38convictions that each of us carry ultimately leading to a point where
08:42consensus is unattainable we recognize the weight of this admission and the
08:48implications it holds so mr. Foreman and members of the jury I have an
08:53instruction for you our Constitution and laws provide that in a criminal case the
09:01principal method for deciding questions of fact is the verdict of a jury in most
09:06cases and perhaps streak strictly speaking in all cases absolute certainty
09:12cannot be attained nor is it expected the verdict to which each juror agrees
09:19must of course be his or her own verdict the result of his or her own convictions
09:24and not merely an acquiescence in the conclusions of the other jurors still
09:30in order to bring 12 minds to a unanimous result you must examine the
09:36issues you have to decide with candor and with a proper regard and respect for
09:41each other's opinions you should consider that it is desirable that this
09:47case be decided you have been selected in the same manner and from the same
09:52sources any future jury would be selected there is no reason to suppose
09:58that this case will ever be submitted to 12 persons who are more intelligent
10:02more impartial or more competent to decide it than you are or that more or
10:08clearer evidence will be produced at another trial with all this in mind it
10:14is your duty to decide this case if you can do so conscientiously in order to
10:21make a decision more attainable the law always imposes the burden of proof on
10:25the Commonwealth to establish every essential element of each indictment
10:29beyond a reasonable doubt if you are left with the reasonable doubt as to any
10:35essential element of any indictment then the defendant is entitled to the benefit
10:40of that doubt and must be found not guilty on that indictment in conferring
10:46together you ought to give proper respect to each other's opinions and
10:50listen with an open mind to each other's arguments where there is disagreement
10:55those jurors who would find the defendant not guilty should consider
10:59whether the doubt in their own minds is a reasonable one if it makes no
11:04impression upon the minds of the other jurors who are equally honest and equally
11:09intelligent who have heard the same evidence with the same attention who
11:13have an equal desire to arrive at the truth and who have taken the same oath
11:18as jurors at the same time those jurors who would find the defendant guilty ought
11:24seriously to ask themselves whether they may not reasonably doubt the
11:29correctness of their judgment if it is not shared by other members of the jury
11:33they should ask themselves whether they should distrust the weight or
11:38sufficiency of the evidence if it is failed to convince the minds of their
11:43fellow jurors beyond a reasonable doubt I will now ask you mr. Foreman and
11:49members of the jury to return to your deliberations with these instructions in
11:53mind and as with my final instructions and the supplemental instructions I sent
11:58in I will send in a copy of this charge as well all right so may that be marked
12:03madam court reporter please all right so thank you we'll send you folks back out
12:11all rise for the court please
12:42you are muted just looking there John O'Keefe's family you can only imagine
12:52what this must feel like the weight of coming in and out of this courtroom
12:57every day hoping that the end is going to be in the least a resolution and it's
13:02looking more and more like we won't get a resolution in this case court TV
13:06anchor Julie Grant is still with us criminal defense attorney Josh Schiffer
13:10also standing by Julie that letter from the jury it was it was deep it was
13:15thorough they are expressing in the most heartfelt way they can to this judge
13:20that they just can't reach a decision I heard the word fundamental differences
13:24what are you thinking when you hear this jury saying we're fundamentally on
13:28different sides do I think they are pouring their hearts and their minds
13:32into these deliberations and that they are doing everything they can to
13:36diligently work through the evidence but they're conflicted internally they
13:41are conflicted it is very clear I heard sadness you know when I heard the words
13:45were deeply divided because we can tell these are people who have taken their
13:49oath very seriously to do this job that is of utmost importance to our criminal
13:54justice system the job you take when you agree to serve on a jury and you hear
13:58them saying we're trying we just can't but you know we know considering the
14:06length of the trial considering the number of witnesses I mean Julia you
14:10know we've got 74 witnesses they heard from 675 exhibits to go through this
14:16isn't that long the judge is right to give this instruction and say keep going
14:23keep working you're in a possession a position to do this job just like you
14:28heard her say any other person you know would have to be big nobody's as
14:32intelligent competent equipped as all of you are members of this jury she gave
14:36them kudos outside of their presence but she was telling the other lawyers this
14:40is one of the greatest juries that I've seen in the way that they have been
14:44acting Josh I want to get your thoughts on it but let's listen back to that
14:47moment just this letter that was read inside of open court by the judge coming
14:53straight from the jury all right so jurors I am in receipt of your note
15:01judge Kenoni despite our commitment to the duty entrusted to us we find
15:07ourselves deeply divided by fundamental differences in our opinions and state of
15:12mind the divergence in our views are not rooted in a lack of understanding or
15:17effort but deeply held convictions that each of us carry ultimately leading to a
15:23point where consensus is unattainable we recognize the weight of this admission
15:28and the implications it holds so mr. Foreman and members of the jury I have
15:35an instruction for you our Constitution and laws provide that in a criminal case
15:42the principal method for deciding questions of fact is the verdict of a
15:46jury in most cases and perhaps streak all right we just wanted to hear that
15:52part the letter from this jury Josh when you're hearing things like deeply
15:56held convictions I mean it sounds like they likely spent some of Friday and all
16:01of this morning writing that letter crafting it to sound as convincing as
16:06possible to this judge to just let them go it is one of the most powerfully
16:12written jury messages I've ever read and clearly they spent a lot of time choosing
16:18the right words respecting the process deeply respecting all the other jurors
16:23involved and taking a very high road which is great it's fantastic it shows
16:29the seriousness of this jury and what they've gone through on top of the
16:34sadness that Julie notes I am also feeling there's some frustration there
16:38because they have put in all of this work over weeks and weeks 74 witnesses
16:44all of this effort and now they're frustrated that they can't complete
16:49their duty and and I don't hold out a lot because it feels to me that there's
16:55an ideological divide that's never going to be jumped with these particular 12
17:00jurors it seems to me that there are people who believe they cannot leave
17:05without a conviction and cannot leave without an acquittal and that that's
17:11unfortunate when you have a fundamental difference like that it is a tough
17:15decision we're talking politics religion level it sounds like coming out of that
17:19courtroom