During a Senate Finance Committee hearing, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) questioned US Tax Court nominees about ensuring fair proceedings for people without counsel.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Okay. So, let me start it this way, without going into all the details of my shady past.
00:07Before I was in public service, I ran the legal aid program for the elderly, for senior citizens.
00:13I was director of the Gray Panthers, and I saw particularly how often Americans,
00:20particularly the elderly, but people of all ages, just found the court system incomprehensible
00:27and really couldn't figure out how it might work to address, you know, their concerns.
00:34And so we made a special focus of trying to help those folks win their way successfully
00:39through the judicial system, and many taxpayers who appear before the tax court are not represented by counsel.
00:46So whenever I think about the tax court, I think about those days with seniors at legal aid.
00:52And these folks appear before the tax court, they don't have counsel,
00:56they're representing themselves pro se, come to court on a tax issue,
01:00which certainly can be confusing and certainly sometimes be intimidating.
01:06And I'd like to just go down the row, we'll start with you, Mr. Arbite,
01:11and have each of you describe in the best way possible what you feel you can do
01:19to make sure that they're going to get a fair shake in that court. Mr. Arbite.
01:23Chairman Wyden, you're correct. Going before the tax court can be life-changing.
01:29If confirmed, I will make sure all taxpayers know their rights and understand the legal process,
01:35which is essential for a fast and fair resolution of their cases.
01:40There are many opportunities for this even before a trial.
01:43To give just one example, I will make sure taxpayers know when they may have access to pro bono legal representation,
01:49whether through a clinic, a law firm, or some other service.
01:55So, Mr. Guider, also, I've gone through your qualifications and your background,
02:01and I'm going to support your nomination.
02:04I know that this has not been an area that you have spent a lot of time on,
02:10so I'd be very interested in what you'd like to do, given your particular background,
02:17to make sure that those folks who don't have counsel and come into this system,
02:22this odd kind of structure for them, what you can do to make sure they get a fair shake.
02:30Certainly. Thank you, Senator. I do come from somewhat of a different world,
02:36but I think I do have experience, you know, working with clients.
02:41And while they're not pro se before the tax court, they may have limited experience.
02:45So, I've found myself in situations where I've needed to sort of explain things to them.
02:51And I think I could, you know, carry that approach forward into this service.
02:56I think my first step at the court would just be about communication with those litigants,
03:03you know, via the court website, or email communications, or mailers,
03:07just so that they understand the status of their case,
03:11or the procedures that they need to undergo to process it successfully.
03:17So, there would be that kind of outreach. I might, you know, in advance of hearing day,
03:21set up an informational call so they can call in and learn about what to expect day of,
03:27what to bring with them, just so that they can be better prepared for the process.
03:32And then I think, you know, when they're appearing before me, whether it's via Zoom or in a courtroom,
03:39just treating them with respect, and dignity, and patience, and understanding
03:44that they're coming from a place where they might not understand the process very well.
03:49Were some of those conversations you had in, as we always say, our previous life,
03:54in terms of housing and the like, were some of those instances where you were trying to explain to people
03:59some of the housing issues that you were working on?
04:02Yes, Senator. I mean, that revolved around housing issues, as well as, you know,
04:07the portions of the code that related to those relevant credits, and, you know,
04:13perhaps the portions of the code that relate to partnership law, which is often how those transactions are structured.
04:19That's a piece of cake. Everybody knows partnership law.
04:22I see all the attorneys in the background howling.
04:25Okay. Thank you. That was what I was interested in hearing from you.
04:30Ms. Fung, your thoughts. What are you going to do when confirmed?
04:35Because I believe we're going to get all three of you confirmed, and we've been working in a bipartisan way.
04:41Senator Crapo, Senator Cassidy, we're all trying very hard to get this done quickly,
04:47because we know people need this service, and your thoughts, Ms. Fung.
04:51Yes, Senator. Certainly, every taxpayer deserves to be heard,
04:54and especially in someone who is pro se in a fair and impartial forum.
05:00I would essentially ensure that they have all the information that they need before trial.
05:06I would specifically point them to the tax court's website,
05:10where there is information on how the process of a tax court case works,
05:15and I would schedule pretrial meetings or conferences to ensure that they understood the process
05:21from, essentially, my standpoint, and that they had an introduction to the process.
05:27Good. I very much appreciate your answers, and I'd like you three, with our other three,
05:34to be part of the group that, really, in the future, people talk about
05:39as exceptionally committed to throwing open this odd system.
05:46My wife basically told me at one point, she said,
05:50I'm going to marry you because you're not really a real lawyer.
05:55She said, you know, you're somebody who runs the legal aid program for the elderly and the like.
06:01And, you know, I think that's an expression of what a lot of people feel
06:04when they're up against this bizarrely unusual system for people who don't have the experience.
06:11And I'd like to see you all go into the history books.
06:14It's the group that really made a difference in terms of taking this oddly complicated system
06:20and making it intelligible to folks who don't have power,
06:23don't have cloud, don't have counsel, and Senator Crapo.