• last year
On Tuesday, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) chaired a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing on U.S. agency in global media.

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Transcript
00:00:00The purpose of this hearing is to conduct oversight over the U.S. Agency for Global
00:00:06Media and two of its broadcasters, Voice of America and Radio Free Europe Radio Liberty.
00:00:14I want to thank Chairman Mass for calling this hearing and, of course, the full committee
00:00:20chairman for being here.
00:00:22USAGM's network chain of audience numbers over 420 million weekly viewers.
00:00:31With this large audience, a proud legacy, a mission to share America's story and report
00:00:37news to close society, USAGM and its broadcasters shouldn't be controversial as part of government
00:00:47in any way, shape, or form.
00:00:49It should be a consensus cause that brings the country together and shares our voice
00:00:56with the world.
00:00:58To put it simply, under current management and leadership, we believe that may not be
00:01:03happening.
00:01:04USAGM's leadership has allowed the agency, particularly VOA, to drift into becoming another
00:01:12mainstream media news organization, indistinguishable from NPR and others.
00:01:18That is clearly not the mission we pay for.
00:01:22Let me be clear.
00:01:23Merely modeling journalists' best practices is an insufficient justification for an agency
00:01:30that consumes $800 billion plus taxpayer dollars per year.
00:01:35Worse, as a recent report from Chairman McCaul makes clear, USAGM's senior leadership has
00:01:43focused not on its critical challenges but on protecting its favored staff.
00:01:49USAGM is the only organization where you can blatantly lie on your resume and get a pass
00:01:57as a Voice of America's Persian News Network did.
00:02:03We would like to know why, and that is part of the reason for the hearing today.
00:02:09Another issue I have personally engaged with Voice of America, it's in its Middle East
00:02:14coverage of the October 7th murders in Gaza, specifically its refusal to call Hamas terrorists
00:02:26what they are, Hamas terrorist.
00:02:30Here are the facts after October 7th's VOA reporters were instructed to do, and I'm quoting,
00:02:38avoid calling Hamas and its members terrorists except in quotes.
00:02:45When my office and others brought this to light, VOA claimed it clarified its response,
00:02:52but it clearly didn't.
00:02:54We have the opportunity to faithfully and truthfully report brutal attacks by terrorists,
00:02:59and we squandered that opportunity to reach millions of people who may have been receptive
00:03:05to that message.
00:03:08Now this happens before, now, Mr. Aberwitz, this happens before you took off at VOA.
00:03:19And so I understand that your job is one of taking on responsibility for things you didn't
00:03:24cause, but you now have the job to change it.
00:03:28Which brings me to a larger point, VOA needs to re-engage with its charter, which says,
00:03:35and this one is in quotes, we'll respect America, not any single segment of American society, unquote.
00:03:46And quote, we'll present the policies of the United States clearly and effectively, and
00:03:51we'll also present responsible discussions and opinions on those policies.
00:03:58It is the policy of successive administrations and is the unanimous position across all acceptable
00:04:07corners of US political spectrum that Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they've been
00:04:13recognized so before their terrorist attack on October 7th.
00:04:19And its members are terrorists.
00:04:21VOA did not take that stance and violated its charter.
00:04:26It also has been reliably informed that a senior VOA editor took reporters to use attribution
00:04:36because opinion in Moscow, Tehran, and Beijing didn't see it that way.
00:04:43I don't spend $800 million of the taxpayer's money to represent Tehran, Moscow, or Beijing.
00:04:53In fact, these are all adversary states.
00:04:57Your job is to have the people of Russia, Tehran, Beijing, and other countries that
00:05:05repress free speech know what the truth is, not the other way around.
00:05:12You are the voice of America, not the voice of Russia, the voice of Iran, or the voice
00:05:16of China.
00:05:18When confronted with these failures I have discussed with senior leadership at USAGM
00:05:23and VOA, you've doubled down and mocked congressional oversight.
00:05:29It's a classic leadership failure, one that can bring down entire agencies.
00:05:35Ms. Bennett, your written statement focuses a lot on successes.
00:05:40Undoubtedly there have been many successes.
00:05:43I was a soldier in the Cold War, and the radio that went across the Czech border kept us
00:05:51out of a war in no small part and kept the hope alive in the Eastern Bloc.
00:05:57But we cannot address USAGM's failures without working to address its current shortcomings.
00:06:05At a time when American people are demanding to know what value they get from each agency,
00:06:10we must work together to make needed reforms and to root out waste, fraud, and clearly
00:06:18be accountable for the words you use pursuant to your mandate from Congress.
00:06:24With that, I recognize the full committee chairman.
00:06:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:06:30I also want to thank Chairman Mast for his work on this issue, and also send my condolences
00:06:38to him.
00:06:40His father just passed away.
00:06:44So to Brian and his family, you're in our thoughts and prayers.
00:06:49The U.S. Agency for Global Media is a critical pillar of America's soft power.
00:06:56It is and will continue to be a beacon of freedom supplying the truth to those living
00:07:00under tyranny and oppression.
00:07:03USAGM funds critical entities including the Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, and Radio
00:07:10Free Asia, as well as the Middle East Broadcasting Network.
00:07:15These are the radio stations and news outlets that fight propaganda pushed by state-controlled
00:07:20media under the iron fist of dictators and despots like Putin, the Ayatollah, and Chairman
00:07:26Xi.
00:07:27They've shined a spotlight on the war crimes of Putin.
00:07:31They've even broadcast this committee's work.
00:07:34And like our report on the origins of COVID in China, they played a critical role in translating
00:07:40that report into Mandarin and sending it all across mainland China.
00:07:46But for all the good USAGM is capable of, there remain serious problems with how it's
00:07:51being managed.
00:07:53In early 2021, whistleblowers contacted Congress regarding the reinstatement of Ms. Sitari
00:08:00Sieg, then director of Voice of America's Persian News Network.
00:08:06The whistleblowers reached out to congressional Democrats first, but they were ignored.
00:08:12When they came to me, the ranking member of the committee at that time, I immediately
00:08:17opened an investigation into their claims of misconduct.
00:08:22The whistleblowers allege wide-ranging abuses, including that Ms. Sieg frequently berated
00:08:28staff, used taxpayer funds for personal travel, awarded government contracts to friends, falsified
00:08:35her education credentials, and engaged in a pattern of favoritism.
00:08:40Additionally, this committee worked very closely with the French embassy, which informed this
00:08:46committee back in 2021 that Ms. Sieg did not attend the prestigious Sorbonne as she had
00:08:54claimed, and she does not hold a PhD or an equivalent.
00:08:59Also, this was established three years ago.
00:09:02The USAGM still refuses to accept these facts, but the evidence was clear.
00:09:09The whistleblowers were right, and in light of this investigation, I have serious concerns
00:09:16about employee vetting at this agency, since this episode represents a continuation of
00:09:23a troubling pattern.
00:09:24But I want to be clear, poor HR decision-making by senior officials does not overshadow the
00:09:31important work being done by their subordinates, nor does it cast doubt on the important mission
00:09:37of this agency.
00:09:38Put no further than Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty is a shining example of how these
00:09:44outlets should function.
00:09:46I'd also like to commend Mr. Steve Kappes, who is here today, on the work that you've
00:09:53been doing, sir.
00:09:55Journalists working for these outlets are incredibly brave.
00:09:58Some have served time in prison for simply telling the truth.
00:10:02Many of them have fled the oppression of their homeland to report on the tyranny of governments.
00:10:08They can't tell their family where they are or what they are doing for fear of reprisal.
00:10:14What the SEAG investigation has shown is that these journalists' courage is undermined by
00:10:20internal dysfunction at the agency.
00:10:23The U.S. Agency for Global Media must serve as a voice of what Ronald Reagan called the
00:10:29shining city on a hill.
00:10:32But for that mission to be realized, USAGM leadership needs to reestablish its credibility
00:10:40with the Congress.
00:10:42There's nothing more powerful than the truth.
00:10:44When people have the freedom to choose their own destiny, they will always choose freedom.
00:10:51The world is on fire, and now, more than ever, they need that beacon of truth from the shining
00:10:58city on the hill.
00:10:59With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
00:11:01Thank you, gentlemen.
00:11:02We now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Meeks, for his opening
00:11:06statement.
00:11:07Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:11:09I'm so pleased to see each and every one of you here today, and I'm pleased to join this
00:11:15hearing so that we can receive an update about the important work that's being done by the
00:11:20U.S. Agency for Global Media and the two of the independent broadcasting networks it supports,
00:11:27the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe.
00:11:31Thank you for all you are doing, for each and every one of you, and for being here today.
00:11:35It's so good to see you and the work that you're doing.
00:11:40Now, I must say that this is in stark contrast to the agency's former CEO, Michael Pack,
00:11:47who defied a lawful subpoena to appear before this committee for a hearing about his tenure
00:11:53in September 2020.
00:11:56And at that time, I was the chair, and Ranking Member McCaul's concerns were articulated
00:12:02at that hearing about the problematic leadership of the agency under Mr. Pack, and I agreed
00:12:07with him.
00:12:10And that's why I'm so glad to see the new leadership, to see all of you here today,
00:12:14to discuss the work of these important agencies.
00:12:18We all know that the global information space is more active and more contested than it
00:12:23has ever been before.
00:12:26Around the world, we see anti-democratic regimes suppressing the free exchange of ideas and
00:12:31information, intimidate journalists into self-censoring, and control new media technologies and online
00:12:40spaces.
00:12:42And we see our adversaries increasingly working to shape the information space with mis- and
00:12:49dis-information that intentionally twists and obscures facts, including about the United
00:12:57States of America, our people, and our policies.
00:13:02And that is why your work remains critical to our national security.
00:13:08You and all of your colleagues are on the front lines.
00:13:15You are helping people around the world to push back against lies with the truth, to
00:13:23counter malign influence with open and democratic debate, to protect against the undermining
00:13:30of independent journalism, as well as promote the U.S. values and interests, our values.
00:13:43As the global information landscape evolves, your agencies have to meet this critical moment
00:13:52by expanding your reach in emerging media landscapes in places like Africa and the Western
00:13:58Hemisphere, to counter harmful Chinese and Russian narratives that threaten to take root,
00:14:06by advocating for your journalists and stringers who have come under threat simply for their
00:14:17reporting and, in some cases, have been jailed for it, and by modernizing your work to ensure
00:14:27that the U.S.-supported broadcasters are amplifying independent news in more languages, across
00:14:36more platforms, to nourish audiences' hunger for unbiased facts and information.
00:14:47When I travel, we can see that they are looking for unabashed and unbiased facts and information.
00:14:58So I look forward to hearing about such efforts today and about the resources and authorities
00:15:03you need from us in Congress to be successful. We know you can't be successful without Congress
00:15:12working with you. It is unfortunate, in my opinion, that I have to worry at times by
00:15:20my colleagues across the aisle. We'll engage you in a narrow conversation today. The Republican
00:15:30majority has seen set on obscuring the history of Mr. Pack's problematic tenure, including
00:15:37by reopening an investigation into a VOA employee that Pack lieutenants had once tried to remove.
00:15:47And they tried to do that until federal watchdogs paused the firing and later described as prosecuted
00:15:56due to animus. So let me be clear. If there are ongoing problems or management challenges
00:16:04at any of your agencies, it's your responsibility to deal with them. And I believe you're doing
00:16:10so. And we want to hear more about that. But your role and our oversight of your work should
00:16:16never be to simply peddle a partisan narrative or settle personal vendettas. If our Republican
00:16:23colleagues are serious about the investigations they have undertaken on USAGM and its broadcasters,
00:16:31then they should be transparent and let the facts speak for themselves, including by publicly
00:16:38releasing the transcripts from hours of closed door interviews with USAGM and VOA officials
00:16:44from which they have repeatedly cherry picked. So I close by saying let's get back to focus
00:16:50on real problems and real facts. The independent journalists you all support around the world
00:16:56risk their safety to report unbiased information, and they deserve no less than our concerted
00:17:02support. So let's get to the facts. And I yield back.
00:17:08I thank the gentleman. We now recognize the chairman, a ranking member of the subcommittee,
00:17:13Mr. Crowe, for five minutes.
00:17:17Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today. The work you
00:17:22and your teams do, often in hostile and dangerous environments, is essential to supporting independent
00:17:27journalism, access to objective reporting, and amplifying American values abroad. That
00:17:34work is as important now as ever in this era of renewed great power competition against
00:17:40Russia and China, a competition that is put into sharp focus this week as our NATO allies
00:17:46gather in Washington to discuss the plan for the threats that we all collectively face.
00:17:52I'd like to start by laying out what I hope today's hearing will highlight today. The
00:17:57first is a point I've already alluded to, and that is the United States Agency for Global
00:18:01Media and the broadcasters and grantees it supports are critical to promoting freedom
00:18:06of the press and countering authoritarian disinformation. Voice of America and Radio
00:18:14Free Europe, as well as other USAGM-supported broadcasters and grantees, provide objective
00:18:20reporting on global news stories and undertake independent journalism in places around the
00:18:26world where that information is hard or impossible to come by. And the fact that it's objective
00:18:33and independent is actually what makes it so strong and effective, and what contrasts
00:18:38it with the disinformation and misinformation coming from our adversaries. So I want to
00:18:43be very clear that it's not the role of this committee to tell you all what to report and
00:18:51how to report it, because that act alone would undermine the credibility, the veracity, and
00:18:59the effectiveness of that information. It would make it just like what our adversaries
00:19:05do. We report the facts. That is an American value, and that is what we're here to talk
00:19:11about. The second issue is the question of resources. I would like to help us, I'd like
00:19:17you to help us understand just how important it is for us in Congress to invest in you
00:19:22and give you the tools you need. While malign actors like Russia, China, and Iran are cracking
00:19:28down on independent journalism and are flooding the airwaves with propaganda in their own
00:19:32countries and around the world, we must give you more tools and more resources to combat
00:19:37their malign activities, not fewer. And yet just a few weeks ago, the majority passed
00:19:43our annual state and foreign operations budget bill that made deep cuts to US AGM funding.
00:19:50I'd like to understand the risks as you see them of such a dangerous and ill-advised decision.
00:19:56So again, I look forward to discussing with our witnesses the important work that you
00:19:59all do and having a fact-based discussion. Actually, one other thing I want to point
00:20:04out is that in any large organization, there are always HR issues. And it is your job,
00:20:12as both the chairman and the ranking member alluded to, of making sure you run your organizations
00:20:16and you address HR problems. But it is also not the role of this committee to serve as
00:20:21an HR office. We will look at systematic issues, we'll look at systematic problems if there
00:20:27are any. But to take up individual cases based on prior grievance or to settle scores
00:20:33of the prior administration is not the role of this committee, and we will not tolerate
00:20:37it. So with that, I look forward to having a conversation with all of you, and I yield
00:20:41back.
00:20:43I thank the gentleman. It's now my pleasure to introduce our distinguished witnesses before
00:20:49us today on this important topic. First, the Honorable Amanda Bennett. She is the Chief
00:20:55Executive Office of the U.S. Agency for Global Media. Welcome. Next, Mr. Michael Abramowitz,
00:21:04who is the Director of VOA, or Voice of America. And lastly, Mr. Steve Campos, the President
00:21:09of Radio Free Europe slash Radio Liberty. Thank you for being here today. As you know
00:21:19from watching C-SPAN, your full statements will be placed in the record, including not
00:21:24only your written statements, but any additional collateral information you'd like to bring
00:21:28to us. And with that, I would ask to try to limit to five minutes. I won't cut you off
00:21:34exactly at five minutes, but I will begin tapping the gavel if it goes beyond that,
00:21:39so we can get to questioning. And with that, Ms. Bennett.
00:21:47Thank you. Thank you very much. I'd like to thank Chairman McCaul for his statement and
00:21:51the Ranking Member Meeks for his statement, Chairman Issa, Ranking Member Crow, members
00:21:57of the subcommittee, and thank you all for the opportunity to be here. I'd first just
00:22:03like to reference the photograph that we have here, and we'll be referring to her quite
00:22:08a bit during our testimony, all three of us here, because she represents the dangers that
00:22:16are facing our journalists today. Her two teenage daughters, Alsu Kremesheva's daughters,
00:22:23have not seen their mother for months and months and months. She's been in a Russian
00:22:28jail since October, deprived of adequate medical attention and care, and wrongly accused of
00:22:34being a foreign agent. Earlier this year, she wrote, my greatest wish is to get out
00:22:41of here alive and well. Some illnesses have gotten worse, but medications and regular
00:22:47exercise give me the strength to hold on and endure the pain.
00:22:54Journalism is not a crime. Yet, around the world, journalists like Alsu are increasingly
00:22:58targeted for just doing their jobs. In Russia, Belarus, Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanmar, Hong
00:23:05Kong, and China, our journalists and their families face enormous risks. Some of them
00:23:12are languishing in prison, like Alsu, while others' families are threatened just for the
00:23:16association with objective journalism. And meanwhile, the People's Republic of China
00:23:22is spreading its own distorted message to Asia, to the global South, the U.S. and other
00:23:27Western democracies, and Russia is following suit. Disinformation by our adversary is compounded
00:23:34with censorship of the truthful reporting presents an urgent national security risk
00:23:41to the U.S. Many see this terrifying trend and conclude that democracy has already lost
00:23:47the information war. We don't think that. USAGM and our entities, the Voice of America
00:23:53here, Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty here, the Office of Cuba Broadcasting, Radio Free
00:23:58Asia, the Middle East Broadcasting Networks, the Open Technology Fund, and the Frontline
00:24:03Media Fund were all built just for this moment. To power our mission, I have prioritized building
00:24:13a culture of trust and clarity among our workforce since day one. I've led with transparency,
00:24:20improved operational efficiency, and invested in the public servants who make our mission
00:24:24possible. And this approach has led to some tangible results, including the fact that
00:24:30we've gotten our very highest ever rankings in the Federal Employee Group Art Survey,
00:24:34a survey in which we've been noted for being at the bottom of the peril for years and years
00:24:39and years. For the first time, we are noted among the most improved. And it's only up
00:24:44from here. The Federal Board, the International Broadcast Advisoring Board that joined us
00:24:51earlier this year and its members are already expanding our capacity to advance our mission.
00:24:58And together, we've taken steps to protect the entity's editorial independence, to ensure
00:25:02their competitiveness, strengthen journalist safety, and secure top leaders across our
00:25:08agencies. And as a testimony to that, I'm proud to be here with two of our newest leaders,
00:25:13Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty President and CEO, Stephen Kappes, and VOA Director,
00:25:17Michael Abramowitz, who were chosen in harmonious cooperation among the Board of Radio Free
00:25:24Europe, Radio Liberty, the IBAB Board, and the CEO. And all of us agreed that these two
00:25:30gentlemen are really the extraordinary choices for this job. Many of our journalists have
00:25:36made tremendous sacrifices and faced enormous risks to report the truth. And they're some
00:25:40of the bravest people I have ever met. And we're doubling down on our efforts to keep
00:25:46them safe. Just to show you what that's like, I'd just like to show you this thing which
00:25:51here, very hard to lift up even. This is a bulletproof vest. It was provided to us thanks
00:25:56to the reporters at Middle East Broadcasting Networks. And these were used by journalists
00:26:05reporting from war zones in Gaza, Israel, Ukraine, and other environments around the
00:26:10world. And while this protective gear is sturdy, it's only one of the tools we employ to protect
00:26:16our journalists. We've begun providing risk assessments, safety trainings, and recently
00:26:21we established a 24-7 threat working group that's available to our journalists at all
00:26:26times. In addition to journalist safety, we're investing in infrastructure and technology
00:26:31to secure our reach to regions where our reporting matters most. We recently launched the Frontline
00:26:36Media Fund to incubate and advance new approaches to distributing content, identify opportunities
00:26:42for savings, provide surge capacity during crises, and champion journalist safety and
00:26:47security. And as part of the FMF, we plan to launch the Global News Service this year
00:26:53which will directly compete with an existing similar news service that has been operated
00:26:57by China for years. We are going to create one here in the USAGM. The Global News Service
00:27:03is a transmission and translation hub that will revolutionize how we conclude, curate,
00:27:08and promote stories by our entities in Mandarin, English, and eventually in many other languages.
00:27:14We're also pursuing a new headquarters for our agency in VOA and moving into a modern
00:27:19building will save us over $100 million in taxpayer dollars over the course of our anticipated
00:27:2515-year lease, securing cost savings that can be reinvested in our mission, particularly
00:27:32in updating our technology to make sure that we are more competitive with the technology
00:27:36used by our adversaries to preserve and extend our reach for the future. You know, this hearing
00:27:43refers to management successes and failures, but with a mission this critical, failure
00:27:47is not an option. We're winning in the global information war. We're currently winning,
00:27:52but we're going to lose if we miss an opportunity to invest in our future, and we cannot succeed
00:27:57without your support. Thank you.
00:27:59Thank you. Mr. Abramowitz.
00:28:04Thank you, Congressman Issa and Ranking Member Crow, and I want to thank Chair McCaul and
00:28:10Ranking Member Meeks for your opening comments, and I really appreciate the opportunity to
00:28:15testify today. I was sworn in less than three weeks ago as the new VOA director. After nearly
00:28:21eight years as the president of Freedom House, where I had a firsthand appreciation of the
00:28:25impact and the global reach of authoritarian governments. When others asked me why I wanted
00:28:31to lead VOA, the answer was simple. I love the mission. It is a true privilege to take
00:28:37on this role during an age when propaganda is spreading globally and fact-based journalism
00:28:43is under dire threat. VOA is a critical bulwark against the accelerating efforts of authoritarian
00:28:49regimes to spread lies and disinformation. VOA is a vital source of trusted news and
00:28:55information in large parts of the world without access to reliable and independent news. It
00:29:01is a fierce defender of the free press and the safety of journalists who increasingly
00:29:05practice their craft amidst a dizzying array of physical threats. I could not be more proud
00:29:12to be leading VOA with its long and storied history of countering lies with truthful and
00:29:18factual journalism. I'd like to take a moment to express my appreciation to VOA's outstanding
00:29:24journalists and staff who perform their critical work in often dangerous and trying circumstances.
00:29:30Although I haven't been here for long, I'm already impressed with their work. On just
00:29:34my fourth day at VOA, I stayed during the evening to watch the news teams cover the
00:29:39Trump-Biden debate, and thanks to Voice of America's live simultaneous translation, speakers
00:29:45of Russian, Mandarin, Farsi, Urdu, Spanish, Ukrainian, Dari and Pashto were able to follow
00:29:51the debate live, and speakers of 40 other languages were able to access honest, fact-based
00:29:56coverage of the debate presented from Washington by a time-tested American media organization
00:30:02with a legal mandate to be accurate, objective and comprehensive. I very much look forward
00:30:09to working closely with this committee and with the Congress more generally. I believe
00:30:13strongly that the nature of VOA's work and its importance to U.S. national security interests
00:30:19should inspire support across the political aisle. Voice of America is one of the most
00:30:24cost-effective foreign policy tools the United States possesses. We are a highly efficient
00:30:29antidote to the disinformation and propaganda spread by our adversaries. As the new VOA
00:30:34director, I promise to protect taxpayer dollars and use our funds effectively to advance our
00:30:40vital mission, and I'll expect myself and VOA personnel to adhere to highest journalistic
00:30:46and professional standards. I am eager to sit down with this committee to get your best
00:30:50ideas for how we can strengthen VOA and its ability to carry out this vital mission. I
00:30:55also look forward to working with my colleagues at USAGM and Raider for Europe Radio Liberty
00:31:00to find ways to better collaborate and coordinate our efforts. With China and Russia doubling
00:31:05down on information warfare, it is essential that VOA and the other networks work closely
00:31:11together to create synergies and avoid duplication. It is early in my tenure, so it's probably
00:31:17a little bit too early to provide definitive plans, but my aspirations for VOA are straightforward.
00:31:23I want to ensure that the agency continues to be the leading international broadcaster
00:31:27providing factual and impartial news and information to international audiences, especially those
00:31:34living under tyranny. VOA will rebut misinformation and disinformation, whatever the source, and
00:31:41in addition, we will tell America's story to the world. And as our charter mandates,
00:31:46we will represent all of America, not any single segment. And in so doing, we will counter
00:31:51malicious narratives spread by state-sponsored media, extremist groups, and other actors.
00:31:57We will also present our content in a way that is relevant to the diverse audiences
00:32:02we serve around the world. VOA, like many other news organizations, faces an urgent
00:32:07challenge of building audiences in places where young people have turned away from traditional
00:32:12news sources. We need to win them over with stories that are interesting and meet them
00:32:17where they are, on their cell phones and social media feeds and in the languages they speak.
00:32:23Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today, and thank you for giving your time
00:32:28and energy to an agency that was vital in America's efforts to win the Second World
00:32:33War and the Cold War and that remains just as vital today in meeting today's challenge
00:32:38of defeating authoritarianism. Thank you, sir.
00:32:41Thank you. We now go to Mr. Kappas.
00:32:45Thank you, Chairman Issa, Chairman McCaul, Ranking Members Crow and Meeks, the distinguished
00:32:51members of this subcommittee, including Chairman Mast. Thank you for hosting this important
00:32:55hearing and inviting me to speak today. Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty is a media organization
00:33:04with a proud history and a very bright future. It reflects the values of the American people
00:33:10through congressional and taxpayer support and through its independence and the desire
00:33:15for freedom for more people in the world. RFERL is unlike most any other news organization.
00:33:24Everywhere we work, we're in the thick of it. Our news organizations parachute in while
00:33:31other news organizations parachute in to cover a story a day or two and then go back to their
00:33:36safe homes. Our people are already home. They're firmly in place in some of the most
00:33:42difficult, dangerous places imaginable. There, we operate with a dedicated commitment to
00:33:49serving people as surrogate broadcasters, reaching people in their local languages and
00:33:54dialects, offering a dramatic alternative to state broadcasters' well-funded propaganda
00:34:01machines. We offer something completely different. It's called the truth. And just yesterday,
00:34:08the truth is, all of us watched in horror as a children's hospital was bombed in Kyiv,
00:34:14Ukraine. Our extraordinary Ukraine service is comprised of nearly 200 people based in
00:34:19Kyiv, Lviv, and on the front lines. And so, there were some of the first people to show
00:34:26up at the scene. They rushed from their bomb shelter studio in the parking garage in Kyiv,
00:34:32and what they found was horrific. The video they captured was instantly shared around
00:34:38the world and seen by millions. Even the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense shared our video on their
00:34:44sites and the truth went viral, and it was funded by you. This is how we compete with
00:34:51the Russian version of this war. And yes, we do all of that kind of frontline reporting
00:34:57in Ukraine, but we also do investigative reporting. We document Russian atrocities, outright war
00:35:05crimes, and this is important, we also hold the Ukrainian government accountable. Before,
00:35:11during, and after the war, our Ukraine service covers the local, national, and global aspects
00:35:17of this war for Ukrainians, in Ukrainian. I've spent my entire career in American network
00:35:24newsrooms. I'm the former president of NBC News, but nothing has been as important as
00:35:31the work that I'm doing right here, right now, as the president of RFURL. These days
00:35:37I work side-by-side with journalists dealing with issues of life and death. For example,
00:35:42a young Iranian journalist on our staff, Parisa Sobati. She is winning awards for her
00:35:47podcasts that connect young women of her age inside Iran who are facing oppression and
00:35:54terrible abuse just for being a young woman inside Iran yearning for freedom. RFURL has
00:36:04unsurpassed street credibility and brand equity in this region. We might still have the word
00:36:11radio in our name, but these days RFURL is a powerful multimedia company that reaches
00:36:1742 million people across 11 time zones every week. That success is good, but it is hard-earned
00:36:25and our opponents are well-funded. Consider this, China, Russia, and Iran outspend us
00:36:32by many billions, and they're not constrained by the truth. In contrast, RFURL is funded
00:36:40at a modest $142 million a year. We are outgunned, but we will not stop. Without us, Iran, China,
00:36:52and Russia will be very happy to fill the void, and we can't let that happen. We are
00:36:57a thorn in the sides of these dangerous regimes, and so they pass new foreign agent laws. They
00:37:03label us extremists. They call us undesirable. If our work wasn't effective, they would
00:37:10simply ignore us, but they don't. We clearly are a threat to them, so they go to great
00:37:16lengths to silence us, and the same goes for our colleagues on democracy's front lines
00:37:22in places like Taiwan with our colleagues from Radio Free Asia, and with thanks to the
00:37:27Open Technology Fund's circumvention technology, we reach inside closed societies. As I said,
00:37:35when all else fails, they imprison our people. As we sit here today, four of our colleagues
00:37:41are imprisoned. Amanda mentioned one of them. Alsu has been held in Russia for nearly a
00:37:45year. Our colleague, Vyacheslav, is imprisoned for more than three years now in Crimea. Ihar
00:37:53and Andrei are locked away in Belarus. In fact, Ihar Losik has been held incommunicado
00:37:58in Belarus for 505 days now. He's been forced to divorce his wife, separate entirely from
00:38:06his beloved profession and his family. Simply put, his life has been destroyed because he
00:38:13worked for us. I'm going to conclude with the words of a famous Iranian woman, women's
00:38:19rights activist, who's been recently freed from prison, who wrote to us, say hello to
00:38:25all of the Radio Farta colleagues. Your inclusive coverage is rare and very much appreciated
00:38:32inside the female section of Evin Prison. We want to do more. Why? Because all that
00:38:40we hold near and dear and as inherent fundamental human rights is at risk. We are at an inflection
00:38:47point in the world. In the past, during the Cold War, when the Berlin Wall fell during
00:38:529-11, and as Russian aggression surged, RFURL has been there to bring home the truth to
00:38:58the darkest corners. We can't abandon the people who view RFURL as lifelines. It's worthy
00:39:05of your continued support. Thank you very much.
00:39:08Thank you. We now go into five-minute sessions, alternating between the majority and minority,
00:39:14and we'll begin with Mr. Perry first for five minutes.
00:39:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Bennett, I'm sure you're probably aware that the oversight
00:39:24of your operation has been something of great bipartisan interest for this committee for
00:39:30some time, active for years now, and I can't say that we're openly thrilled about the cooperation
00:39:38from your predecessors, and we hope it's better under your tenure here. Issues include, as
00:39:46you know, decades-long security lapses, a partisan bias, improper hiring practices,
00:39:55and abuse of visa programs, which are very concerning to us, very concerning. We've got
00:40:00a wide-open border, known terrorists coming through, criminals, and our national security
00:40:07is at stake, and the abuse of visa programs and the lack of fidelity regarding security
00:40:12clearance is problematic to us. And so you'll have to forgive us if we remain skeptical
00:40:18about USAGM's competence and trustworthiness. Mr. Kappas, your eloquent talk made us think
00:40:26about the voice of America and USAGM of days past, but not of days that we've seen recently.
00:40:33And we'd like to change that. Clearly put, and simply put, you're to serve the long-range
00:40:42interest of the United States, of the United States of America and its citizens. During
00:40:48your tenure, ma'am, as director, according to various VOA reporters, you and other agency
00:40:53officials halted a live interview with a known Chinese dissident after Beijing allegedly
00:41:00complained to the State Department, and then VOA fired the journalist conducting the interview.
00:41:07That's the side of the story I got. I'm sure you have something else, and I'm interested
00:41:10in hearing it. But what also concerns me is the VOA used CCP talking points to describe
00:41:17the PRC's COVID-19 response efforts, stating, and I quote, from Asia to Europe, South America
00:41:23to Africa, China is providing or has pledged humanitarian assistance in the form of donations
00:41:29or medical expertise, unquote, which might be the right thing to do if you also include
00:41:34the fact that it's very likely, and it's been known for some time and finally admitted,
00:41:39that the likely location of the release of the virus is the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
00:41:45That might be at least a counterbalance. But we're not here to do Beijing's bidding, for
00:41:51sure, and certainly not use the taxpayers' money to do that. I'm wondering, and this
00:41:59is another subject, but along the same line, do you, ma'am, consider Hamas as a terrorist
00:42:04organization? Is Hamas a terrorist organization? I'm a head of a federal agency. I know, ma'am,
00:42:14you are. I will accept the definition that's given by the United States, which is designated
00:42:19Hamas as a terrorist organization. Okay, so Hamas is a terrorist organization, you agree,
00:42:23and therefore its members are terrorists. Yet, I've seen a memo, an internal VOA guidance
00:42:29after the October 7th attack by Hamas directed VOA staff to avoid calling Hamas and its member
00:42:37terrorist except in quotes. Why would that be? That was a personal opinion by someone
00:42:43that circulated around. It was not by any means the policy. The policy is to be careful
00:42:48about the use of the word terrorist with Hamas or any other group, but to use it as it is
00:42:53appropriate. And this is one situation where artificial intelligence really enabled us
00:42:58to shed light on an important situation in response to letters from both sides of Congress.
00:43:05We used artificial intelligence to look through all our languages and look at the...
00:43:10Well, that's great, ma'am. I appreciate that, but let's just drill down on that a little
00:43:15bit. So, Hamas is a terrorist organization by the definition of the United States government,
00:43:19you agree, therefore its members are terrorists, and you're saying you're using artificial
00:43:25intelligence to determine when it's appropriate. So, tell me when it's not appropriate.
00:43:29No, sir. You said we used artificial intelligence to determine all the instances in which we
00:43:34did use the word terrorist in describing Hamas. We used it frequently. We sent a graph of
00:43:40all the instances to the members who wrote the letters to us. We have used it frequently.
00:43:45We've used it in quotes. We've used it out of quotes. We've used it in quotes.
00:43:47When does it go in quotes and when does it go out of quotes?
00:43:51There's very widely used standards as to how it's used, and people, the journalists are
00:43:57using their own determination as to whether or not it's appropriate to use it in quotes
00:44:01or not quotes. But we use it in both ways.
00:44:03But the journalists work for you, and you work for the United States citizens, and Hamas
00:44:09is a terrorist organization designated by the United States of America who attacked
00:44:13Israel. And the free world or the world that wishes to be free is counting on you to call
00:44:22the balls and strikes, not equivocate whether Hamas is a terrorist organization that slaughtered
00:44:27Jewish individuals without cause. And that is why many of us have pause about funding
00:44:34your organization, because if we can't count on you to have the correct judgment regarding
00:44:39such an egregious occurrence, well, the American taxpayers don't want to pay for that. I yield.
00:44:46I thank the gentleman. We now go to the Ranking Member for his five minutes.
00:44:50Thank you, Chairman. Ms. Bennett, I want to pick up where we just left off here, because
00:44:56there's just some facts, and then there are things that are not facts. I'd like to give
00:45:00you a minute or two to actually explain the facts about how your organization has treated
00:45:07the reporting on Hamas and its designation as a terrorist organization.
00:45:12Yes, thank you. And yes, we do not shy away from using the word terrorist in conjunction
00:45:19with Hamas or any other terrorist-designated organization. We have found that the examples
00:45:25of many, many, many, well over a thousand examples in which we've used that, exactly
00:45:30as you described, in appropriate manners. There are best practices guides that talk
00:45:35about how careful you have to be in using the word terrorist, because you don't want
00:45:39to apply it indiscriminately. And the thing that originally started this discussion was
00:45:46mistakenly described as a policy, when in fact it was an email sent around to staff
00:45:54by a person who was expressing her opinion, as I think we're all entitled to do. It did
00:45:59not represent the policy. The policy is, as I've stated, which is that we are careful
00:46:03with the use of the word terrorist, but we did not shy away from using it in conjunction
00:46:07with Hamas or any other terrorist group.
00:46:10Just to clarify, you're careful with the use of that word because it's a serious word,
00:46:14you take it seriously. You're careful generally.
00:46:17We're careful generally in using the word generally, and that applies to Hamas or any
00:46:24other terrorist organization.
00:46:25And you've never shied away from using it with regard to Hamas as a matter of policy.
00:46:30We have never, and we can provide examples of it to anyone who requests and have done
00:46:35in the past.
00:46:35And to clarify, your use of AI wasn't actually to determine whether or not to use it, it
00:46:41was actually to do the extra due diligence and to make sure across your entire enterprise
00:46:46that you were looking at all instances. So you actually were going kind of above and
00:46:50beyond by doing a scrub using AI. Is that accurate?
00:46:53That's correct. For the very first time to do a scrub in all the languages that are used
00:46:57inside USAGM to look and make sure that we were using it appropriately as everyone rightfully
00:47:02demands us to do.
00:47:03Okay, thank you. I want to touch on the issue of budgeting and resources.
00:47:07I mean, you outlined in the beginning the incredible case as to the powerful tool.
00:47:13And Mr. Kappas, you said it so eloquently when you indicated that the response from
00:47:18our adversaries actually indicates how effective you really are.
00:47:21I mean, they come at you and your journalists and reporters very hard because you pose a
00:47:26threat and you pose a threat because you're good and you're credible and you're an important
00:47:30tool.
00:47:30So if we were going to cut your budgets as the majority proposes to do, what would that
00:47:36look like in your organizations?
00:47:38What would be those hard decisions, those things you wouldn't be able to do for us?
00:47:43We can start anywhere we want to start.
00:47:47I would say it would have a devastating impact on the work that we're doing and I mentioned
00:47:51some of that in my opening statement.
00:47:54The work right now is vital.
00:47:58We are, without a doubt, targeted by Russia, by Belarus, by Iran, by China, you name it.
00:48:08And if we leave the playing field, if you will, if we leave that space to those countries
00:48:16and their propaganda and attempts to sway public opinion, we're giving them that terrain
00:48:25to themselves.
00:48:26We're busy in all of these areas.
00:48:30The degree of threat that our people face cannot be understated.
00:48:36Right now, we have to devote significant resources to advocate for our people, legal resources
00:48:44to try to get them out from behind bars, and I don't want to leave anybody behind.
00:48:49That's the other thing that goes along with the mission of these organizations right now
00:48:54is to take care of our people.
00:48:56Thank you.
00:48:57Any other thoughts on that, Mr. Abramowitz?
00:49:02I would just say that on the issues that this committee cares about, that we care about,
00:49:08the coverage of Iran or Russia, it would be quite devastating to have the kind of
00:49:15cuts that I've seen bandied about.
00:49:18What's interesting to me, just in the first few weeks of being at VOA, is that I see that
00:49:23when big news stories happen, like the debate I mentioned, but also two years ago during
00:49:29the Women's Lives Freedom protests in Iran, during the recent terrorist attacks inside
00:49:36Russia, that we have a large reach in those countries, and the people of those countries
00:49:43come to VOA because it's the only source of information to kind of counter the false information
00:49:48that is coming from the government.
00:49:50So that's what the concern would be, that we would steadily lose that ability to push
00:49:55back against that false information.
00:49:59Thank you.
00:50:00I yield back.
00:50:01Thank you, gentlemen.
00:50:02We now go to the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Burchett.
00:50:05Thank you, Chairman Issa, Ranking Member.
00:50:07Ms. Bennett, Satera Siege was fired for lying on her resume, for mishandling taxpayer dollars,
00:50:14and harassing staff at the United States Agency for Global Media.
00:50:18Why was she rehired?
00:50:19Sir.
00:50:20Your microphone.
00:50:22Sir, that whole issue has been thoroughly overseen.
00:50:31I have great respect for the oversight capabilities and responsibilities of this organization.
00:50:35It's been thoroughly overseen over a period of three and a half years, including all the
00:50:39issues you mentioned there.
00:50:42I hope that we are able to, as a conclusion was drawn, a report was issued, I'm hoping
00:50:46that we'll be able to work in partnership with your committee in oversight of the important
00:50:54things that are now facing us.
00:50:56Well, ma'am, do you have any comment on that?
00:51:00I know there's a public statement that was issued following the Foreign Affairs Committee
00:51:06report.
00:51:07I mean, so you clearly have no problem with commenting on the matter.
00:51:11I'm just wondering why was she rehired?
00:51:13Sir, it's really, as you know, inappropriate to talk about personnel issues in an open
00:51:19forum like this, although this whole entire issue has been very thoroughly-
00:51:24Well, ma'am, it's taxpayer money.
00:51:26I think it's very appropriate for us to talk about it.
00:51:30And I would ask you, I would issue some caution there.
00:51:35You know, the Privacy Act doesn't apply to Congress.
00:51:40And these are taxpayer monies.
00:51:42And these people, ma'am, you know, we had whistleblowers tell us that this lady was
00:51:48harassing staff.
00:51:49I mean, is that what's acceptable at global media?
00:51:53Sir, you're right.
00:51:54We have spent three and a half years being exceptionally cooperative, really trying to
00:51:59answer every question-
00:52:00You answered every question, but you rehired her.
00:52:03Sir, we dealt with that issue.
00:52:07We talked about it.
00:52:08It's in the report.
00:52:09Well, I appreciate the talk, ma'am, but rehiring her, to me, really defeats a lot of the purpose
00:52:16of why we're here.
00:52:20I think it was pretty much proven that the, in the committee report, it was unequivocal.
00:52:26And has even proven by third-party credentialing service what went down on that deal.
00:52:30So that's very disappointing.
00:52:33You know, y'all released a report detailing Ms. Siege's offenses for which she was fired.
00:52:38Do you agree the committee's findings are accurate?
00:52:41Sir, we don't always agree on everything the committee finds, but we nonetheless have great
00:52:44respect for the committee and its oversight responsibility.
00:52:48And I can appreciate the lawyers giving you that answer, ma'am, but the evidence in the
00:52:51report that relates to her lying on her resume was verified by third-party credentialing
00:52:56service.
00:52:57I mean, how do we go out here and tell people that we're hiring and some people that we're
00:53:00letting go that, well, we'll make exceptions for certain people because of whatever reason.
00:53:05And when they lie or they harass employees or other things, or there may be some financial
00:53:12dealings that we're not clear of, sure of, that we keep these people on.
00:53:18And sir, as I say, we were extremely cooperative in talking to you about every single thing
00:53:23that we've been asked to talk about.
00:53:25And the report reflects the committee's view of it.
00:53:28Ma'am, let me ask you this, do you believe the whistleblowers who have spoken, who spoke
00:53:32about Ms. Siege, do you think they told the truth or do you think they lied?
00:53:35Just tell me, what do you think?
00:53:37Sir, that's not for me to talk about whether a person lies or tells the truth, sir, but
00:53:41I would like to say that we don't agree with everything that the report says.
00:53:44Nonetheless, we respect the oversight capability.
00:53:46Ma'am, she mishandled over $1 million in taxpayer money.
00:53:51Is that alone not a fireable offense?
00:53:53Sir, those allegations long before I came back to the agency were, I think, deeply investigated
00:54:02and found to be without merit, which is why I believe that the investigation focused in
00:54:07on the educational credentials and not on these other allegations because they were
00:54:11disproved very early on, long before I came here.
00:54:16A third party, I believe, begs to differ on some of those issues.
00:54:19Who else receives this level of special treatment at USAGM?
00:54:24Is there other people that have followed along this same path that you know of?
00:54:28I'm not sure what level of special treatment you're asking about.
00:54:31Well, ma'am, if there's a misappropriation or mishandled $1 million in taxpayer money,
00:54:37that seems to be something I would think we'd be concerned about and it's very concerning
00:54:41to me when I talk to people about the level of trust in government and their lack of trust
00:54:48when things like this occur.
00:54:50I think it's pretty evident why they do not trust in government because we're not managing
00:54:54our money and we're throwing it around and this needs to change and I believe it will
00:54:59be changing very soon.
00:55:01Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:55:02I yield back.
00:55:03Thank you.
00:55:04The gentleman did seem to want to know if there was merit to her false allegation that
00:55:08she had a Ph.D. from a French university.
00:55:12Can you answer that on the record, please?
00:55:14Again, sir, we answer these questions many times, including with seven transcribed interviews
00:55:19by all the people involved.
00:55:20I'm just asking if you could answer on the record whether she has a Ph.D. or not.
00:55:25That's not a private question and I think that was part of the gentleman's inquiry.
00:55:30I think I need to defer to the testimonies that have been given by our people under...
00:55:35And let the record show that she did not have it and that those were truthful that
00:55:39she had lied about it and we'll let it leave it that way unless we get something different
00:55:43from a witness.
00:55:44With that, we go to the gentlelady from Nevada, Ms. Titus, for her five minutes.
00:55:49Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:55:50I would like to talk about some of the languages that you include and some that you don't.
00:55:56I've worked a lot with the Appropriations Committee to highlight the importance of including
00:56:01Mongolian language.
00:56:04There are nine million Mongolians out there that are in Mongolia, in Russia, in the People's
00:56:10Republic of China, and we're just not reaching them.
00:56:13And yet, Mongolia is a neighbor that we need in a kind of unfriendly part of the world.
00:56:20They have an opportunity to do independent foreign policy.
00:56:23They are leaning towards the West and democracy.
00:56:26We need to get information they have and they need to hear from us.
00:56:30I wonder, Ms. Bennett, can you talk about what steps you've taken to try to establish
00:56:35a Mongolian language service?
00:56:38There's a Mongolian caucus here in Congress that would be interested in hearing about
00:56:43that.
00:56:44Congresswoman, I completely agree with you as the importance of the Mongolian language,
00:56:47particularly as it relates to its neighbors in the People's Republic of China and the
00:56:52issues surrounding it.
00:56:54And yes, we have done a fair amount of study and research as to the feasibility of adding
00:57:00that language, but unfortunately, like so many of the other languages that we would
00:57:05also like to add to reach those people, the recent budget cuts have made this really impossible
00:57:11to do.
00:57:12We have put it on our list, we've looked for it, we're going to request that funding be
00:57:16made available for it.
00:57:18But unfortunately, it's just a victim of the current budget situation for which I really
00:57:23feel deeply sorry.
00:57:24Well, I do too.
00:57:25I know that the report for FY25 mentioned that this was something that we should be
00:57:31doing and then to cut the resources to make it impossible just seems not in our own national
00:57:37security interest.
00:57:38I would agree with you, Congresswoman.
00:57:40What are some of the other languages that you're looking at, like Mongolian?
00:57:43Well, there's a number of places that we'd like to think about broadcasting into that
00:57:47we talk about.
00:57:48Just off the top of my head, there would be perhaps in the Philippines, the languages
00:57:53that reach the Philippines, Brazil, that India, these places that originally were thought
00:57:58to have very robust free press availability, which no longer do.
00:58:04There's many, many parts of the world nowadays that we would like to really consider adding
00:58:09web broadcast to and I think that those places would welcome our presence.
00:58:13Oh, I think so too.
00:58:15I'll see if we can't make that case to get that funding back, yet another reason why
00:58:20the budget shouldn't be cut.
00:58:24So let me ask you this, in Eastern Europe, we're seeing more and more regimes becoming
00:58:30more repressive.
00:58:31You've got Lukashenka in Belarus and you've got Hungary, Poland, Moldova seems to be next.
00:58:39As you look at after Ukraine, the pieces that start to fall, Moldova certainly is kind of
00:58:45in that pathway.
00:58:47You've got a limited presence there, but despite the fact that Moldova gets an awful lot of
00:58:52propaganda from Russia, can you talk, Mr. Kappos, about some of the maybe bright spots
00:58:59in that region and how we could increase funding there to push back Russian narratives?
00:59:05We do have a presence in Moldova and they're doing some fine work right now.
00:59:11All across that Eastern Europe and you get into the Caucasus and other areas, I was just
00:59:19in Georgia three weeks ago visiting our staff, dedicated staff that we have in Tbilisi.
00:59:27This is a group of people who not only are Georgian, but this is also a group of people
00:59:32who we've had to relocate several times.
00:59:34They used to work for us in some cases in Russia, then we moved them to Kiev and now
00:59:40we've moved them to Tbilisi thinking that would be safe.
00:59:43And now, of course, this terrible, yet another one of these foreign agent laws has been passed
00:59:49in Georgia and so they're facing an uncertain future as well.
00:59:56We can't afford to continue to open one office, close another one, open in a new place thinking
01:00:02it's going to be safe.
01:00:04We've got to, and to be clear, we don't just simply do that as soon as it gets a little
01:00:12difficult.
01:00:13Everywhere where we operate right now, things are difficult.
01:00:16We stay there as long as we can, as long as we can keep our people safe because the audiences
01:00:22expect us to be there.
01:00:24But it's an important task.
01:00:27There's a lot of overlap with where you are, you mentioned Georgia and then Kiev and making
01:00:33those moves with HDP, the House Democracy Partnership.
01:00:36We are trying to do some of the same things that you are doing, but working through legislative
01:00:41bodies in some of these countries that are in very difficult neighborhoods.
01:00:45I think it's a good partnership and I'd like to see it strengthened, not weakened by budget
01:00:51cuts.
01:00:52We'd love to welcome you to Prague sometime to talk about it.
01:00:55Thank you.
01:00:56I yield back.
01:00:57We'll now go to the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Ms. Dean, for five minutes.
01:01:01I thank you, Chairman.
01:01:03I'd like to yield for just one second.
01:01:04I just want to get this in the record.
01:01:05I'd ask unanimous consent that documents from Carol Gunzburg, dated October 20th and October
01:01:1610th, be put in the record.
01:01:18And her title is the Associate Editor, News and Standards and Best Practices, without
01:01:25objection to be placed in the record.
01:01:26I apologize and please go forward, ma'am.
01:01:29Not at all.
01:01:30Thank you, Chairman Issa, and my sympathies to Representative Mast and his family.
01:01:35Thank you, Ranking Member Crow, for holding this hearing today, and I'm especially thankful
01:01:39to the three of you.
01:01:41It is an honor to be in your company, to be in conversation with you, with the extraordinary
01:01:46work, the body of work you all have done, but especially what you are doing now.
01:01:52Please send my regards to all those you work with.
01:01:55They are well led by you.
01:01:57That might reveal that I'm a little puzzled by some of the focus of the questions today
01:02:02on personnel matters, because what you are doing is so incredibly important, and we need
01:02:07to be an appropriate partner with you, not overseeing HR.
01:02:13I'd like to talk first about combating disinformation.
01:02:17We've seen a startling rise in the spread of misinformation, disinformation, and plain
01:02:21flat-out lying, both domestically and across the globe.
01:02:25We've even heard instances in this very room, which I find so regrettable.
01:02:31I've made a point to call out disinformation when I hear it and try to correct the record,
01:02:37because after all, if we are not operating under facts and truth, we are not operating
01:02:43well.
01:02:44I firmly believe we must ensure that people have access to reliable, fact-based information.
01:02:50We must support credible, unbiased media organizations that work to provide that information globally.
01:02:56Ms. Bennett, you say in your written testimony, quote,
01:03:01Disinformation by our adversaries paired with censorship of truthful reporting threatens
01:03:06the viability of fragile democracies and presents an urgent national security risk to the United
01:03:12States, end quote.
01:03:14Mr. Kappas, you similarly state that reinforcing the democratic foundation of other nations
01:03:20contributes to the safety and security of the American people.
01:03:23And I know, Mr. Abramowitz, you have similar responsibilities.
01:03:28How do you all check, how do you use your organization appropriately to check and combat
01:03:35disinformation, particularly in those areas where we see vulnerable democracies at risk?
01:03:43I'd like to cede to my colleagues, but first to say something as basic as the fact that
01:03:47without VOA, without Radio for Europe, there are big parts of the world that would not
01:03:52even know that there had been a Russian invasion of Ukraine because the Russians were saying
01:03:57there had been none.
01:03:59These are the only two sources of truth in that matter in very large portions of the
01:04:04world.
01:04:05So perhaps you two would like to talk about it.
01:04:07Thank you.
01:04:08Sure.
01:04:09Well, we do it in a lot of different ways.
01:04:10I think one of the things that we have different, we have 48 different language services and
01:04:17each of those services approaches it differently.
01:04:19But often there are fact checking or disinformation monitoring types of enterprises that are carried
01:04:28out that are appropriate for each culture.
01:04:33So for instance, the Mandarin desk, I've learned, you know, we have a disinformation desk.
01:04:40And they were looking, for instance, at how Google's artificial intelligence gave answers
01:04:46online and they discovered that often the answers were in line with Chinese propaganda.
01:04:52And then when the chatbot was, the Google chatbot was silent on issues like human rights
01:04:59abuses in Xinjiang or street protests against COVID.
01:05:03And so our team of reporters surfaced that and that became something that was got public
01:05:10and many members of Congress and both parties learned about that and they publicized it.
01:05:17So it's dozens of different exercises like that across the new services that we do that.
01:05:24Thank you.
01:05:25Mr. Kappas.
01:05:26There's a number of things I'd like to say about this and I appreciate the opportunity
01:05:31to talk about it.
01:05:32I would say that all of the services, and you have to remember that we're operating
01:05:36in 23 different countries, 27 different language services, all of our entities have the mandate
01:05:46of identifying disinformation campaigns.
01:05:50Often we're some of the first people to spot them before they go viral.
01:05:54And so they have the mandate to find them and then report on them.
01:06:00You can see examples across the board of all of our services doing incredibly important
01:06:07work in this.
01:06:09I think there's a misperception that our job is to simply be propagandists on the other side.
01:06:19Nothing could be further from the truth about that.
01:06:23We have a mandate to present the truth.
01:06:27If we are viewed as simply a mouthpiece for the United States government or for just being
01:06:34the flip side, being propagandists, then I can't think of a quicker way for all of us
01:06:40to be deemed irrelevant by the audiences that we're trying to reach.
01:06:45So we don't play games with the news.
01:06:48That's the most important thing that I would say that would be a takeaway, I would hope,
01:06:53is we don't play games with the news.
01:06:55We report what's going on.
01:06:57And that's the mission.
01:06:58I thank you for that fine, diligent filter.
01:07:01And it's so desperately connected to national security for us, but also globally.
01:07:07So thank you.
01:07:08Especially thank you for the reporting at the Children's Hospital yesterday.
01:07:11Extraordinary.
01:07:12Thank you.
01:07:13I yield back.
01:07:14I thank the gentlelady.
01:07:15I recognize myself now.
01:07:19Ms. Bennett, the committee has asked for and not received any substantiation, including
01:07:27dissertation, grades, documents from a university showing this alleged PhD.
01:07:35We have a valid whistleblower and substantiation from the French government that she does not
01:07:40have the degree from the Salon that she says she has.
01:07:45Now you've refused to answer.
01:07:48You're saying that you'll let the report speak for themselves.
01:07:51So on behalf of the full committee chairman, I'm just simply going to make sure that on
01:07:56the record, this committee believes that you have rehired somebody who lied about their
01:08:03degree and they've been reinstituted as somebody over the control of others, in a position
01:08:09of authority.
01:08:11Now that's not an HR statement.
01:08:14That is in fact a management statement pursuant to this committee's oversight and pursuant
01:08:20to what we do when we have whistleblowers report false allegations.
01:08:25Until or unless you find a way to change that on behalf of the chairman, on behalf of myself,
01:08:32we will still stand feeling that you have not righted the ship.
01:08:38If you can find an explanation showing why you believe she should be rehired because
01:08:43her claim was not false or that you are perfectly happy to have somebody who has lied but is
01:08:51pretty good at other things, then say so to the committee.
01:08:55And until you do so, that's where the record is going to be since you refused to answer.
01:09:00Now as to Carol Gunzburg, her title, which I already put in the record, is the associate
01:09:08editor of news standards and best practices.
01:09:12That's not somebody just sending something around.
01:09:15That's somebody with the authority to say how things should be done and to interpret
01:09:18what best practices are.
01:09:20Is that not true, ma'am?
01:09:23At the time she was the acting in that position and she was interpreting on her own behalf.
01:09:29Ma'am, she had the title.
01:09:32Acting gives her the title and the power.
01:09:34So my question to you is, wouldn't you have to agree that when someone sends something
01:09:41around and they have the title that says they, in fact, are the interpreter and the
01:09:46boss when it comes to news standards and best practices, that that's not just, as you said,
01:09:52somebody sending something around.
01:09:54That's management making a statement telling people not to use Hamas terrorist accepting
01:10:03quotations.
01:10:04Wouldn't you agree to that?
01:10:06Sir, she interpreted the best practices information, which is readily available to everyone.
01:10:13We went through a great deal.
01:10:15It was, it was a, it was a loose interpretation.
01:10:18It was immediately reinterpreted by management and we were the, when did that reinterpretation
01:10:26occur?
01:10:27It did not occur on the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, or all the way through the 20th.
01:10:32When did it occur?
01:10:33Unfortunately, this was done at the voice of America before Mr. Obramowicz's tenure
01:10:37there.
01:10:38So it was not done under his direct supervision.
01:10:40So we'd have to go back and look, but I was made aware of the time that there was a reinterpretation
01:10:45and a re-encouragement that people look to the best practices guide, which is readily
01:10:49available to every employee of USAGM.
01:10:55So in the intervening two months, one of the things that happened is I met with the acting
01:11:01head of it and through a whistleblower discovered they went back and mocked the meeting and
01:11:07our idea that we would question whether that was best practice.
01:11:12So once again, for the record, it was more than two months.
01:11:16We are here because we do provide authorization and ultimately appropriation of an amount
01:11:25that over the years has been many billions of dollars.
01:11:28I believe in your organization and I believe that the hardworking men and women, many of
01:11:33whom aren't Americans, they're across the globe and they're operating trying to bring
01:11:38the truth to people.
01:11:40I would ask all of you, and I know I didn't ask all of you questions here today, I'd ask
01:11:44all of you to go back and ask the question.
01:11:48We don't want you to be propaganda.
01:11:49We do know that people take great risk, but we also know that the voice of America and
01:11:55its other namesakes are in fact supposed to be the voice of an American position of
01:12:03liberty, an American position that promotes the human side of freedom.
01:12:11And it's not completely without a bias.
01:12:14It by definition does have the American bias.
01:12:18It does have the bias of the free world.
01:12:20That's what we did.
01:12:21That's what we sent over the Berlin Wall and throughout the Iron Curtain for generations.
01:12:29And so I would ask you to please take a good look because the term best practices for gentlemen
01:12:35including Mr. Kappos, the definition that exists at CNN versus Fox, neither one of those
01:12:43definitions work.
01:12:45And the definition at the Washington Post and the definition at the New York Times,
01:12:49quite candidly when we contrast them, they're not looking at the same book.
01:12:54So your definition has to be consistent with a mandate that comes from Congress and a tradition
01:13:01that I think everyone on both sides of the aisle here today can be supportive of.
01:13:05And I know I've been tough on you and I'm doing this on behalf of the chairman of the
01:13:10subcommittee, but I'm also doing this because I believe in your organization and I would
01:13:15hope that this hearing isn't just one of those things you slough off and say, oh, that
01:13:20was good.
01:13:21We got it done.
01:13:22But you actually ask the question of, couldn't we do better than saying we have best practices
01:13:27and say, you know what?
01:13:28We have uniquely the type of practices.
01:13:31We're proud to come before Congress and show them what we do.
01:13:34And please continue using your AI to sort of figure out whether you have some level
01:13:40of consistency over so many languages.
01:13:44With that, I would ask if anyone needs a follow-up question.
01:13:49Thank you, Chairman.
01:13:50The only, this is less of a question, just wanting to point out in response to the question
01:13:56about this employee and the employee's credentials, the minority has on numerous occasions requested
01:14:03from the majority the transcripts of the TIs that the majority took at their request during
01:14:12the conduct of the investigation that is underlying the report.
01:14:16The majority has not released the transcripts from those TIs.
01:14:21So in the interest of transparency, in the interest of bringing to light all of the facts
01:14:25of this case, let's just release those transcripts so we can all see for ourselves what it is
01:14:31we're dealing with.
01:14:32What do they have to hide?
01:14:33So we will again reiterate our request from the minority to the majority to release the
01:14:38transcripts of those TIs so we can have a more thorough and open conversation.
01:14:44Thank you, Chairman.
01:14:46Thank you.
01:14:47And we are asking whether we can get you a direct answer to that.
01:14:51I will from experience comment just briefly.
01:14:54As you know, you had members of your side in those transcribed interviews.
01:15:00And for purposes of the committee, you are free to ask questions relevant to that and
01:15:06even to opine on what you believe you understood in those hearings.
01:15:10They are not closed from essentially your release.
01:15:14If they are transcribed interviews, they are free even for you to say a great deal.
01:15:20If they're depositions, then the actual release requires a committee vote.
01:15:24But I would only say from my own experience that please feel free to bring copies or to
01:15:31refresh your memory and ask questions from it in the future.
01:15:34And hopefully we will be able to release all or whatever is mutually agreeable between
01:15:40the majority and minority shortly.
01:15:42Ms. Titus, do you have any further comments in closing?
01:15:44Yes, thank you.
01:15:45I just wanted to ask Mr. Kappas if he could briefly give us an update on Ms. Kramasheva's
01:15:51situation.
01:15:53We've met with her family and we know she's being held.
01:15:56She's one of your journalists.
01:15:57Could you tell us where she is, how she is, what's happening?
01:16:02Thank you for asking.
01:16:05Number one, she's a beloved colleague of all of us.
01:16:09She's been a resident of Prague for 25 years.
01:16:14She is an American citizen.
01:16:17She made what we now know is a mistake, not reporting inside Russia, but she went home
01:16:25because her mother was quite ill.
01:16:29She went back to visit her and when she went to leave, they stopped her and she's been
01:16:35there ever since.
01:16:36She's been in prison now for eight months and sometime this summer, she will face a
01:16:46formal hearing.
01:16:47All of this has been pre-trial.
01:16:50She will face a formal hearing.
01:16:51The charges are baseless.
01:16:54They have been brought up against her.
01:16:58We believe because she works for us.
01:17:03Her conditions in the prison cell have been terrible.
01:17:09She was forced to sleep a mere few feet away from a hole in the floor that doubled as a
01:17:15toilet and recently they moved her into a different facility.
01:17:22We have had to take the Russians to court in order to get just basic level of health
01:17:27care for her and she's had some concerns.
01:17:30We've had to push to get those conditions treated and we've had to go to court in order
01:17:37to get that done.
01:17:39She's not been able to have communication with her family.
01:17:43The US, the United States has tried to send consular visits to her cell.
01:17:53We have been pushing the United States Department of State to give her the wrongfully detained
01:18:00designation which we believe would give her the full weight and support of the United
01:18:07States government as we push for her release.
01:18:13To date, she's not been given that designation though we believe she meets each and every
01:18:18one of the criteria necessary.
01:18:21Her detention has been a blow to the organization because all of our people know that there
01:18:31are inherent risks but this goes to a whole other level and we feel most profoundly for
01:18:38her 12-year-old and her 15-year-old, two daughters who are wonderful and her loving husband who
01:18:45also works for us.
01:18:49It's cliche to say that a workplace is family.
01:18:52This is family for us and this hits awfully close to home.
01:18:56Is there anything we can do to call on the State Department to see if we couldn't expedite
01:19:00that designation?
01:19:03Chairman McCall and this committee have already held hearings about all of the Americans who
01:19:10are wrongfully detained including Paul Whelan, including Evan Gershkovich and Russia is using
01:19:19this as a political tactic, grabbing Americans as they can and see what kind of a price they
01:19:25can get in exchange.
01:19:26It's a hateful tactic and it happens to have caught up one of our colleagues in the process.
01:19:33Yes, we would like to see the designation because we think it would help also especially
01:19:37as she's about to go into the formal hearing sometime this summer.
01:19:43Thank you.
01:19:44Thank you.
01:19:45Mr. Perry, any final words?
01:19:46Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:19:47Just following up, Mr. Kappas, why do you suspect there's a delay in her receiving the
01:19:52designation?
01:19:53I mean, we hear the stories and of course they're heartbreaking and they're unacceptable,
01:19:58they're outrageous.
01:20:01Why would there be any delay whatsoever if you know?
01:20:05I'm not sure I can answer that, sir.
01:20:07I believe that we've had a very high level engagement with the State Department and they
01:20:18have said and we believe, we take them at their word, that they're doing absolutely
01:20:22everything they can to get her out even without the designation.
01:20:26Do they think having the designation imperils her freedom?
01:20:34I think you'd have to ask them what their concern is.
01:20:39I think that they, I believe that they would like to see her released as well.
01:20:44Well, I sure hope so, but my goodness, I mean, when they say they're doing everything they
01:20:48can and we're waiting on a designation and it's your studied opinion that the designation
01:20:52would aid in her release or at least her defense, I can't imagine what the rationale would be.
01:20:59If you do get the answer anytime timely, I think certainly I'd like to have it.
01:21:04One more question, Ms. Bennett, you might not really be aware, but back in the summer
01:21:08of 2020, OPM published a report questioning long running issues with the way USAGM used
01:21:15its delegated authority to conduct background investigations for eligibility for access
01:21:21to classified information.
01:21:22Now, the MOU lapsed in 2012, which is quite a long time from now, but USAGM simply just
01:21:30continued to conduct background investigations for literally several years after that.
01:21:35Is USAGM still conducting background investigations for potential USAGM employees under delegated
01:21:42authority?
01:21:45We are on the verge of getting back our authorities.
01:21:47We have handled every single thing that's been asked of us.
01:21:51I think there's only one issue left open and we expect to get our delegated authority back
01:21:55within I think the next 30 to 60 days.
01:21:57Okay.
01:21:58And who's conducting the investigations currently?
01:22:00ODNI.
01:22:01ODNI is currently conducting them.
01:22:05And would you commit to providing the documentation regarding your eligibility when you receive
01:22:11it so that we have that?
01:22:12Yes, absolutely.
01:22:13And I'd just like to correct one piece of misinformation, there's a misunderstanding
01:22:17that our employees have access to classified information.
01:22:21These are not people that, these are journalists.
01:22:24They report news outside just like every other journalist.
01:22:27They have no access to classified information and therefore their security clearance does
01:22:31not need to reflect that.
01:22:32Well, I didn't make that assertion.
01:22:34However, in past investigations, it was pretty clear that there were employees of USAGM with
01:22:41security clearance.
01:22:42I'm not saying under your command, but there were employees that had received the clearance
01:22:49that should not have received the clearance, if nothing else, for the fact that USAGM was
01:22:54not qualified and was not authorized to conduct the investigation, yet the clearances were
01:23:00granted.
01:23:02And that's, again, this is a dangerous world.
01:23:04We've got a wide open border.
01:23:06We've got known terrorists coming into the United States of America, and we can't be
01:23:11too careful.
01:23:12And so it's important that not only that we're conducting the oversight, but that you're
01:23:17watching that and understand that we're aware of that issue.
01:23:20And we don't want that issue to be replicated ever, ever again.
01:23:24I feel proud of the work that the staff has done in clearing up the issues that have been
01:23:28raised and that we're very close to receiving our authorities back again.
01:23:32I'm very pleased with that.
01:23:33All right.
01:23:34Thank you, Madam.
01:23:35Mr. Chair, are you?
01:23:36I thank the gentleman.
01:23:37That brings to a close this hearing.
01:23:38I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members who asked questions.
01:23:43Both those members and other members of the subcommittee will have some additional questions
01:23:48for the witnesses.
01:23:50Would each of you be able to answer questions you receive in writing in the next five days?
01:23:54Yes.
01:23:55Thank you.
01:23:56Please let the record reflect all answered in the affirmative.
01:23:59The chair now.
01:24:02Can I just confirm?
01:24:07Your question was, Chairman, that they agreed to answer questions in the next five days.
01:24:13Are you saying those are questions that the members will posit in the next five days?
01:24:17I just want to make sure we're not committing them to answer within the next five days.
01:24:19In the closing, it'll say, you know, members may have five days in which to.
01:24:25Yeah.
01:24:26I just want to make sure that's what you were referring to.
01:24:27Thank you.
01:24:28Thank you.
01:24:29All right.
01:24:30Pursuant to the committee rules, all members may have five days to submit statements, questions,
01:24:36and extraneous materials for the record subject to the late limitations and without objection

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