'Jaw-Dropping' Stories From Kennedy Family Exposé Discussed By Author Maureen Callahan
On "Forbes Newsroom," author and journalist Maureen Callahan discussed her new book, "Ask Not: The Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed," her condemnation of the media, the shocking stories in the book about the Kennedy family, and more.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hi everybody, I'm Brittany Lewis with Forbes Breaking News.
00:05Joining me now is Maureen Callahan, author of Ask Not, The Kennedys and the Women They
00:09Destroyed.
00:10Maureen, thank you so much for joining me.
00:13Thank you so much for having me, Brittany.
00:16Your book is just an incredible, interesting, page-turning read and it's all about the Kennedy
00:24family tree and the women in their orbit.
00:27So first, what made you decide to tell these women's stories?
00:33I knew I was going to write a book sort of reconsidering and recontextualizing the Kennedy
00:41legacy and the Camelot myth for a long time, but it wasn't until it, when Harvey Weinstein
00:48was convicted of rape, that was a watershed moment.
00:53And this book really came into focus in this sort of post-Me Too era of all of these women,
01:02some extremely famous like Jackie Kennedy Onassis, like Marilyn Monroe, some whose names
01:08you may not know, but all of whom share this really tragic bond, which is the ways in which
01:15they were used, abused, and discarded, not just by the Kennedys, but by a Kennedy-worshipping
01:23media that to this day seeks to protect this myth they know is false.
01:31And I think what makes the book super relevant for right now is we're seeing the consequences
01:38of a media that is bound up in protecting a president and the catastrophic fallout.
01:48I want to first talk about, to your point, one of the women who had an, I don't know
01:56if you could even call it an affair, with JFK, it took her, in your book she was saying,
02:03it took years and decades to describe even what transpired.
02:08Was that assault?
02:09Was that consensual?
02:10Was that something more?
02:12And I am curious, why do you think the media and Americans have idolized this family for
02:19decades and for generations?
02:22I know exactly who you're talking about.
02:24It's Mimi Alford, who started at the White House in JFK's secretarial pool.
02:32She was a 19-year-old virgin, and on her first day she's invited up to the White House residence
02:38where she has gotten drunk.
02:41The president suddenly materializes, ushers her into a bedroom.
02:45His wife's bed, his wife is away, takes her virginity in less than three minutes.
02:52And as she wrote years later, short of screaming, I could not have gotten him off of me.
02:58And she's not short even now, right?
03:01Three days later, an unthinkable, I consider this an assault, JFK invites her to a swim
03:10in the White House pool.
03:11She goes, his aide Dave Powers is sitting on the edge of the pool with his feet dangling
03:18in the water, and President Kennedy says to 19-year-old Mimi, Dave looks a little tense.
03:25Why don't you go over and relax him?
03:28And she knows what this means, and she feels she must.
03:32And so she orally services this aide while JFK silently watches.
03:39So the second part of your question, why the media continues to protect the Kennedys,
03:46I really have no idea.
03:48I know there's a feeling amongst many that JFK gave the ultimate sacrifice, that this
03:57family has suffered enough.
03:59This is always sort of the go-to, hasn't this family suffered enough?
04:02When Mimi came out with her memoir, she was pilloried by female stars in the media, by
04:08Barbara Walters.
04:09She said, why are you doing this?
04:11You could have, she said to her, you could have let this go.
04:16Can you imagine?
04:18I cannot imagine.
04:20And another interesting fact from Mimi's story was when she was going for one of those
04:27White House swims, she noticed that there were a lot of bathing suits hanging up and
04:32there weren't women in JFK's cabinet.
04:35So and but so that's what she was thinking.
04:38And the book does just an amazing job of going generation woman to woman from Rose
04:46Kennedy down to Carolyn Bessette.
04:48And do you think that this was a generational problem in the Kennedy, within Kennedy
04:54men? I mean, what is the root of the problem and do you think it can ever be eradicated?
05:00It's definitely a generational problem.
05:03It feels both congenital and cultural among Kennedy men.
05:08I mean, to this day, women who marry into the family are basically told, like, you're
05:14not a real Kennedy, not a blood Kennedy.
05:17So you can come and go and they'll just be fine.
05:20And when they tire of you, they're going to discard of you in a way that is so painful
05:26and humiliating.
05:27And, you know, to this point, one of the women that I write about who is a more recent
05:34victim, Mary Richardson Kennedy, second wife to RFK Junior, our current third party
05:40spoiler, who remains unbothered by questions about how he treated his wife, who told
05:47her, quote, You'd be better off dead.
05:51I mean, it feels as though until this country has a real reckoning with who these
05:58people are and what they do to women.
06:01We're never going to be fully healed of this, we're never going to be free of it.
06:07What do you think the Kennedy men and the Kennedy family as a whole think of women?
06:13Because like you said, the people who are on the further outer layers, according to
06:21your book, Get Treated Worse and who I'm thinking that's coming to mind is Pamela
06:25Kelly, who in the book you note that Joseph Kennedy, the second driving a car out, spun
06:34out of control, flipped over and then she ended up paralyzed.
06:37So can you tell us a little bit about her story and in general, what do you think the
06:42Kennedy's think about women?
06:45Yeah, I mean, Pam's story is incredibly heartbreaking, and I actually just saw her
06:50sister a couple of weeks ago and brought her the book.
06:54Pam died in 2020 during covid in a nursing home alone.
06:58She was paralyzed at age 18 by Joe Kennedy, who was recklessly driving a Jeep packed
07:05with teenagers through the roads of Nantucket.
07:09It flipped.
07:12Pam was paralyzed from the waist down for life.
07:15She was so incredibly destroyed by this that not long after the accident, she took a
07:22lit cigarette and burned the letters D.I.E.
07:28into her own stomach.
07:29Die. The Kennedy's convinced her not to sue, that they would always take care of her.
07:36She had to fight tooth and nail her whole life to get money out of Joe in terms of media
07:42complicity. When The New York Times reported upon this, they called this accident Joe's
07:47quote mishap.
07:50They said that two girl passengers were injured.
07:53They did not mention Pam by name until the last paragraph when he shows up in court, the
08:00judge, a Kennedy family friend, says, I don't think Joe's going to do anything for you.
08:05Gives him a hundred dollar fine and tells him to go on his way and do something good with
08:09his name. This is a systemic problem in American culture, in the legal system, in our
08:17media, with this family.
08:19I think this family devalues women to a degree that is jaw dropping.
08:25And my my sort of favorite example of this is the late Ted Kennedy, who female voters
08:34were told forever Democratic Party loyalists, especially he may be problematic in his
08:41personal life, but he's great at legislating for you.
08:43This is a guy who left a young campaign aide to die.
08:47Suffocating to death over hours in three feet of water.
08:54Problematic, but great at legislating for women like we're supposed to accept that.
09:01And I mean, there is another Kennedy right now, as you mentioned, running for president,
09:05the third party candidate.
09:07Why do you think it is important to share the story of Mary Richardson Kennedy,
09:12especially right now?
09:14Because female voters, especially, I mean, all voters, but women especially, should know
09:19exactly the kind of guy they're voting for and exactly what he thinks of women, which is
09:24nothing, nothing.
09:26Now, not only did Mary's discovery of Bobby Kennedy Jr.'s sex diaries destroy her, he
09:34kept diaries of the multitude of women that he had had sexual encounters with.
09:43And you saw these diaries, right?
09:45I saw these diaries.
09:46I saw these diaries.
09:48I read the names.
09:49Some of them are very famous women.
09:51Some of them were friends of Mary's.
09:54Sometimes there were two or three women in a day or in a single encounter.
09:58They were ranked one to 10, not by performance.
10:01She knew that she knew it was about how far they had gone.
10:05She gave these diaries to her lawyer, her divorce lawyer, with the implication, if
10:11anything happens to me, I want the world to know the kind of monster I was married to.
10:17After she committed suicide, Bobby Jr.
10:21fought Mary's siblings tooth and nail for her remains, and he won and he buried her
10:28with a lot of fanfare, with media present in the Kennedy family plot up in Massachusetts.
10:34Now, one week later, without the proper permits, without telling anybody, anybody.
10:41In the middle of the night, he secretly had her coffin dug up and moved to the other side
10:48of the graveyard, buried alone, facing traffic.
10:53He is a monster.
10:56I mean, just reading that passage particularly, I mean, is jaw dropping.
11:02Did he respond to your book, to these allegations?
11:07No, he has yet to respond.
11:08The book has been out for about a week now, and he has he has said nothing.
11:17To a Vanity Fair article that didn't shine him in a good light either.
11:22He he responded to this.
11:23He reportedly said, I am not a church boy and quote, I had a very, very rambunctious
11:28youth. I said in my announcement speech that I have so many skeletons in my closet that if they
11:34could all vote, I could run for king of the world.
11:36What do you make of his reaction there?
11:39I hear a lot of eyes, eyes, eyes, me, me, me.
11:43I hear I could be king of the world.
11:45I hear malignant narcissism.
11:48I hear not a word of regret, remorse.
11:51This is a guy who drags his dead, estranged wife's name through the mud.
11:57He recently claimed that he had no dealings with Jeffrey Epstein.
12:02Don't blame him for that association.
12:04Blame Mary, the devout Catholic.
12:07She was the one who was friends with Jelaine Maxwell and brought him into that sordid little circle.
12:13Total lie.
12:14Total lie.
12:16He did pick a woman to be his running mate.
12:18And from what it seems based on media, it seems that he's in a good relationship with his now wife, Cheryl
12:24Hines. Do you think what do you make of that?
12:28I think the picking of the female VP candidate is pandering and it's meant to sort of paper over his
12:34terrible history with women.
12:37Bobby Kennedy Jr.
12:38is not just.
12:41Culpable in what happened to his wife, Mary, he was also the prime agitator in vacating his cousin,
12:49Michael Skakel's conviction for the savage sexual assault and murder of a 15 year old girl in
12:55Connecticut in the 70s.
12:57And Bobby Kennedy Jr., tell me a Republican who could get away with this, has been claiming for years that
13:04two teenagers, one black and one mixed race, decided that night they were going to go down to the
13:11wealthiest neighborhood in Connecticut, find this blonde girl and go, quote, caveman on her.
13:19That's who Bobby Kennedy Jr.
13:20is. You mentioned an interesting phrase, the Kennedy playbook, and that seems to be a trend in your book
13:31from Joe Kennedy to the way he treats Rose and Rosemary on down.
13:37Talk about that. What do you think the Kennedy playbook is?
13:41Well, there I mean, I could have done like a little, I think, like a pamphlet that could have gone with the
13:48book that would have been like, here's the Kennedy playbook, if you are an inconvenient woman, and I have
13:53dedicated this book to inconvenient women everywhere, because I think every woman knows what it's like to be
13:59made to feel inconvenient.
14:01Oh, you maybe have too much of an opinion or too much of a mouth.
14:05The Kennedy family playbook is if you pose a threat to them, you mentioned Joe, the patriarch and his beautiful
14:12daughter, Rosemary, who he secretly, forcibly lobotomized when she was in her early 20s, leaving her with the
14:19physical and mental capacities of a two year old and then hid her away for the rest of her life, a lonely, lonely
14:28life. In the book, I report what the media never has because they don't look for it, which is that family friends
14:36of the Kennedy's suspected strongly that Joe had been molesting his own daughter and that she was acting out and
14:43she was about to reveal this terrible secret and he had to shut her up.
14:47She's a very extreme example of what the Kennedy playbook typically outlines, which is you call a woman crazy.
14:55You try to forcibly institutionalize her.
14:58Even Jackie, as a young wife to Jack Kennedy, was hacked off to a mental hospital and given electroshock
15:04treatments three in one week because she was upset he was cheating.
15:08So she was the problem.
15:09She had to be electroshocked into into just compliance with this.
15:14And then if that doesn't work, you shred their reputation in the public square, right?
15:19If you accuse them of rape, long history of that, they're going to call on their enablers in the media, say that
15:29you've got a problem, you as a woman.
15:31What are you doing out so late?
15:32Why are you dressed that way?
15:33Are you a single mom?
15:34Why aren't you married?
15:35Why are you divorced?
15:35Do you have any drug history?
15:36Blah, blah, blah.
15:38And before you know it, your life is ruined.
15:41So.
15:44I think it's important to have a full reckoning with the damage and the carnage they have caused.
15:50I don't think someone like a Carolyn Bessette marries into that family if she knew the whole truth.
15:58And this book is the truth.
16:01And a central figure in this book is Jackie Kennedy Onassis.
16:06As we look at as history looks at her right now, she is a very favorable first lady.
16:12She's a fashion icon.
16:13She's a political icon in America.
16:17You also paint her, too, as a very complex, a shrewd businesswoman, if you will, because she was thinking multiple times about divorcing
16:28JFK, according to your book.
16:30And then you point out that Joe Kennedy did pay her a million dollars to not divorce her husband, according to your reporting.
16:40And she also was shrewd when it came to her marriage with Aristotle Onassis, reportedly getting millions of dollars.
16:49So what do you make of Jackie Kennedy and the way the public views her?
16:55Jackie, I think you're exactly right.
16:57She's really the central figure of the book.
16:59And readers or listeners will meet three different Jackies.
17:04And I write about these women in a very novelistic way, right?
17:09You're in their heads and you're going through these extraordinary life events with them.
17:15You know, Jackie, number one, as the as the model first lady who holds the country together after her husband's brains are blown out all over her lap.
17:26It's just extraordinary tick tock of what those days and hours were like in the aftermath.
17:31The second Jackie you meet is a liberated Jackie who marries a Greek shipping magnate, Ari Onassis.
17:40Five years after the assassination is tarred and feathered by the global media as a whore who sold herself to the highest bidder.
17:48That would never happen today.
17:50Not in a post-MeToo world.
17:52The third Jackie we meet is the unlikeliest Jackie and my personal favorite.
17:58And this is a Jackie who is an empty nester, a single woman.
18:03And she is looking at the rest of her life.
18:06And instead of joining museum boards and going to fundraisers, she decides to go back to work.
18:14And she decides to go into book publishing and work as an editor because she has a lifelong love of books.
18:20She wanted to be a journalist before she married.
18:23And I thought when I was researching the book, I found this image I had never seen before.
18:28And I put it in there because I think it's so remarkable.
18:31Jackie Kennedy Onassis on the cover of Ms.
18:34Magazine as the face of the American working woman in 1979.
18:41I just I just love that, Jackie.
18:45That was my favorite, Jackie, to reading the book.
18:48And do you think that these women's stories need to be more central when you're thinking about the Kennedy legacy, the Kennedy political dynasty that we all know today?
19:03Oh, yeah, 100 percent.
19:06I mean, one of the women I get asked most about is Marilyn Monroe, like the fascination indoors.
19:13And a lot of people don't know that not only was she sexually involved with President Kennedy, but at the very same time, she was sexually involved with his brother, Bobby, who was then the United States attorney general.
19:27And they destroyed her.
19:30They ground her down until she felt like she was nothing.
19:35And there's always been speculation about their involvement in her suicide.
19:40And I go into detail about that.
19:43But I think the key takeaway is the media has spent decades covering up just how dastardly they were, their abuse of women.
19:55I think so for JFK, for example, I think we need to reconsider his presidency.
20:00You have a man who is essentially raping at least one teenage intern in the White House.
20:06Like what we really, really need to to to reexamine what we think of that president.
20:14There were so many stories in here, honestly, too many to count that were horrifying.
20:20Everything from Chappaquiddick and Mary Joke Peckney to the story of Jackie Kennedy giving birth to her stillborn daughter and Jack Kennedy not coming home and staying on vacation in the Mediterranean.
20:34And so many in between, so many that I've never even heard of.
20:38Out of all of these stories, all of these details, what horrified you the most?
20:43Oh, my God, it's so hard to say.
20:45It's so hard to say.
20:46You can take a giant I mean, I think what Joe Kennedy did to his daughter, Rosemary, is worse than murder.
20:54He he left her unable to even use the bathroom on her own.
20:59She could not speak.
21:00She couldn't do a thing for herself.
21:02And she was kept all the way across the country, hidden away.
21:07He disgustingly told the media that his daughter, Rosemary, elected to live a quiet life and teach children who were mentally, cognitively delayed.
21:18OK, and he's and you and your book showed that he didn't even tell his wife until after it was done.
21:25And the kids thought Rosemary went missing.
21:27They didn't know what happened.
21:29Yeah, it was a huge trauma in their lives, and even the boys Ted Kennedy, this was his great childhood trauma, he thought if he didn't behave, if he didn't do well, and most importantly, if he didn't lose weight because this was something that Kennedy's could not abide, do not gain a pound, that he would be made to disappear.
21:50And this fear is like a generational fear that has been passed down throughout the years.
21:59And I think you can look at that and say, well, that's the most horrible.
22:03But then when you sort of pull each life apart, like you mentioned, Jackie, with the stillbirth, Jackie wanted more than anything to be a mother.
22:12She had had two miscarriages.
22:13She couldn't hold a pregnancy because her husband kept giving her STDs.
22:19But the Kennedy's blamed her for being faulty as a woman.
22:25She gives birth to this daughter, she's knocked out, she wakes up and she's told her baby was a stillbirth.
22:32Her husband is off partying on the Mediterranean on a yacht with a bunch of other women.
22:37He is informed of this and he says to his brother, Bobby, the baby is lost.
22:43There's nothing to be done.
22:44I'm not coming home.
22:46Jackie was in a hospital bed for eight days after that.
22:49She was too depressed and weak to even bury her baby.
22:54And her husband comes home on day 10, maybe because he has been advised by a fellow senator, if you ever want to be president of the United States, you better haul your ass back to your wife.
23:09The media knew all about this, but they covered for him.
23:12They knew what kind of a guy he was.
23:13They thought he was cool.
23:16Why do you think they covered for him?
23:17Just because he was cool, young, good looking.
23:22Why do you think they ran such cover for him?
23:26Because even Jackie knew that the media was covering for him.
23:31Yeah, she did.
23:33And I think it was that, you know, there were a lot of guys in that press pool who were deeply enamored of the Kennedy's and their image.
23:42They're aborning as American royalty who agreed with his politics.
23:48And, you know, in what I always have found, one of the greatest examples of journalistic malpractice, Ben Bradley, who went on to become editor in chief of The Washington Post, considered himself JFK's best friend.
24:03Can't have that.
24:05You can't you can't be a member of the press and want to be friends with the people you're covering and want to be absorbed into power rather than always prosecuting power and being suspicious of power and, you know, holding it to account.
24:18So I think there's that.
24:19And, you know, Jackie, after that stillbirth, after Jack's complete abdication of his role as her husband left him, she was about to divorce him.
24:31She was distraught greatly.
24:32She still loved him.
24:34And she went and had a conversation with a media mogul at the time to see how this would play out in the media if she left him.
24:44And this man informed her that if she left him, first of all, why would she do that?
24:49She knew who she married. Not true.
24:52Number two, if she left him, he would never be able to run for president of the United States.
24:58And she would deprive America of a potentially great leader.
25:01And did she really want that on her conscience?
25:05And Jackie was so young and so off kilter, she and she had nobody else in her life who was saying to her, no, no, no, this isn't something you would be doing to Jack.
25:17This is something Jack is doing to Jack.
25:20And something that I found in your book, a trend with all the women, is that it felt like they came into the Kennedy orbit when they were extremely impressionable.
25:33Yes, and also many of them at the height of their powers, right?
25:37These women all brought something extremely compelling and valuable to the table.
25:42They were all beautiful.
25:43They were all well-bred, well-educated, stylish.
25:47They were almost all of them ready for the cameras.
25:51Joan, Ted's wife, would be an exception.
25:55Carolyn Bessette would be an exception.
25:57But they all had their superpowers.
26:00And once they marry into that family, it's like they the men try to strip them of all their power.
26:10I don't know whether it's out of envy or whether it's out of a need to control.
26:15It's probably both many other things.
26:18But it becomes probably the most perilous place for a woman besides, like, an empty parking lot after midnight, you know what I mean?
26:28Like, marrying into the Kennedy family is a very dangerous proposition.
26:32Every sentence in this book, and I listened to the book, I also read the book, there's an explosive detail, explosive detail, that I thought I was well-versed in history that I found and learned for the first time.
26:47Have any of the Kennedys gotten back to you, responded to this book at all?
26:54No, I've not heard anything.
26:57No, I've not heard anything.
26:59And I actually think it is probably, and I say this with all humility, younger Kennedy women, I hope, read this book.
27:07I think it's got to be extremely difficult to be a woman in that family, whether you're a daughter, a sister, a wife, a mother.
27:14Like, I just think it is it is you should get hazard pay.
27:18I think I write that, like, I consider Joe Kennedy's one million dollar payoff to Jackie not to leave after that first catastrophe with her stillborn daughter.
27:28I consider that hazard pay.
27:29She earned every penny.
27:31Can you talk about the fact checking process here?
27:34Because I'm sure it must have been vigorous because the claims in here, like I said, the only word that comes to mind is explosive.
27:41Right, right.
27:42I keep hearing that.
27:43It's so funny because, like, I was in it.
27:45And but like it is true, like every page there's another bombshell.
27:49And if it were fiction, you would think this is overwrought and that this would never happen to one person, let alone 13 women.
27:56And those are not the only women, by the way.
27:59But the process was, yes, I hired a fact checker.
28:02I paid for that myself.
28:04We went through the book over a period of months with a fine tooth comb.
28:10I also hired a researcher who was extraordinary.
28:14And I then had a very fine, fine legal mind on this book as well who came to me through my publisher.
28:22We legally vetted this book eight ways to Sunday.
28:25I mean, we were doing it just extraordinary, like granular detail.
28:29And so that it really it chafes me a bit when I see reviews like in the in The New York Times or in The Washington Post that claim that like I have no sourcing or it sounds outlandish.
28:41It does sound outlandish, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
28:44And I hate those attempts to discredit that book because they feel partisan and petty.
28:49And if you go to the back, you know, I sort of do this like it's almost like I consider it like a light dessert at the end of a meal where you kind of want a little more.
29:00And it's all there.
29:02Like some of it came to me firsthand through my own original reporting.
29:05Some of it was written about in memoirs or by other reporters.
29:09So, yes, that's a long way of saying it was it was a very thorough process.
29:14And so you stand by every single claim of this book, obviously.
29:19Yeah, of course I do. And I knew came out yesterday.
29:24Jack Schlossberg, JFK's grandson, he's blown up on social media in recent weeks.
29:29He has been hired at Vogue.
29:31And this is what Vogue said about him.
29:33Schlossberg's new role as a political correspondent for Vogue will see him combine his background in law and business with the self-described silly goose tenancies he displays online.
29:44What do you make of that hiring?
29:48It's peak Nepo, baby.
29:50This is a guy.
29:52Tell me what he does.
29:53He's like 30 years old.
29:54I don't think he's ever held an actual job.
29:57He's got all of this access to wealth and power.
30:01And what does he do with himself?
30:02He spends all day long on Instagram, taking videos of himself, like singing in a drugstore.
30:09It just it's like so so he gets a plum position at Vogue, which like you might think is like, oh, that's harmless.
30:15But no, like he actually bumped somebody who's like way more educated, skilled, hungry for the opportunity.
30:22So, you know, in some substance, Vogue will hire Nepo, baby Jack Schlossberg.
30:27But they will never cover this book.
30:30They haven't covered this book as of yet, right?
30:34And you don't think they will at all?
30:35No, I don't think they will at all.
30:37Ada Wintour is very good friends with Caroline Kennedy.
30:40She'll never touch it.
30:41I've been told of major media outlets never going to touch it.
30:47They don't want to disturb the Kennedy myth or they don't want to upset like famous Kennedys that they're kind of in bed with.
30:53So do you think that this Kennedy dynasty is still alive today and as active as it was back in the 60s, 70s, 80s?
31:05It's not what it was in the 60s and it won't ever be again, but the Kennedy family still remains a power center in American life and politics.
31:15And the attempted blackballing of this book, which I think is important, I think it's an important it's not just a reconsideration of American history, it's also a reflection of women's circa now.
31:28And I think attempts to blackball it, which they blackball anything they don't like that runs counter to their garbage narrative.
31:37I think that's dangerous and I think it's poisonous.
31:40And I think when you see someone like Robert F.
31:44Kennedy, Jr., gain so much traction, which, let's face it, is largely due to the nostalgia of the Kennedy myth and the fondness the American people still hold, it's a false fondness.
31:58It's not based in reality.
32:01That tells you everything about why this book matters, I think.
32:04Speaking of the book, Maureen, where can people find it?
32:09Well, we finally restocked on Amazon.
32:11It sold out before we even it was formally on sale.
32:14The preorders were like through the roof, which was just astonishing.
32:18And I'm so thankful.
32:19So we're now back on Amazon.
32:21Barnes and Noble also placed another order.
32:23We're at Sam's Club and, of course, support your local independent bookstores.
32:27Maureen Callahan, thank you so much.
32:29I hope to have you back soon.
32:31I would love it.
32:32Thank you so much for having me on.
32:33What a great interview.
32:34Thank you.