Troy Nehls Chairs House Transportation Committee Hearing On East Palestine Train Derailment

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On Tuesday, Rep. Troy Nehls (R-TX) chaired a House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee hearing on the East Palestine, Ohio train derailment.   Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:  https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript   Stay Connected Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com

Transcript

00:00:00I ask unanimous consent that the chairman be authorized to declare a recess at any time during today's hearing without objection so ordered.

00:00:07I also ask unanimous consent that the members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit with the subcommittee at today's hearing and ask questions without objection so ordered.

00:00:18And as a reminder, if members wish to insert a document into the record, please also email it to documentsti at mail.house.gov.

00:00:28I now recognize myself for five minutes for the purposes of an opening statement.

00:00:32I am pleased to call this hearing today to discuss rail safety as well as the events that occurred in East Palestine.

00:00:41I am hopeful every member has had ample opportunity to review the NTSB final report and the pending bipartisan legislation in both the Senate and in the House.

00:00:54The Railroad Safety Enhancement Act, or RESA, that I introduced with Congressman Bolton, builds upon the bipartisan legislation our Senate colleagues marked up and passed favorably out of Commerce Committee.

00:01:08First, it requires all Class I railroads to enroll in the Confidential Close Call Reporting System for a period of two years.

00:01:17This program is run by an independent third party and allows railroad employees to report close calls and unsafe incidents.

00:01:26Second, our legislation does not include the periodic rail car inspections included in the Senate Rail Safety Bill.

00:01:35It was well-intentioned, but I believe after discussions from a wide variety of stakeholders, that these were redundant and just not necessary. Unnecessary.

00:01:45Our legislation requires state DOTs to notify first responders of the existence of the AskRail app, which is a tool that provides real-time data to first responders about a train consist.

00:01:59The makeup, all the stuff about the train.

00:02:02The first responders in East Palestine had issues accessing the AskRail app due to a lack of connectivity.

00:02:09Our bill creates an AskRail connectivity pilot program to fill gaps in service for the app along the national freight network.

00:02:18Folks, people came to East Palestine, volunteer firemen, they get to the scene, they can't even, they have no connectivity, they don't even know what's inside the cars.

00:02:27We've got to fix that. And our legislation does that.

00:02:32Our legislation authorizes an additional $1 billion for the Railroad Crossing Elimination Grant Program. $1 billion.

00:02:41I'll quote Ms. Homendy,

00:02:43Great crossings are among the deadliest spaces in our rail system, in part, because they are where our rail and highway systems meet.

00:02:54Better separating these systems would save thousands of lives and incur many other benefits, end quote.

00:03:01I believe the American people would value federal investment in this area.

00:03:08It will not only reduce congestion on the network, but it will also save lives.

00:03:12Finally, our legislation authorizes $100 million annually for the Federal Railroad Administration to establish a grant program to install onboard freight railcar telematic systems and gateway devices.

00:03:27The purpose of the program is to outfit the new and existing freight railcars carrying hazardous material.

00:03:34Additionally, this program will provide shippers with real-time data about their tank cars' health and performance.

00:03:42The bill also contains compromises on the phase-out of the DOT-111 tank cars that industry has indicated that they can meet.

00:03:53The Senate opted to introduce rail safety legislation in the immediate aftermath of the derailment in East Palestine.

00:04:01Now, the House, what did we choose to do? We chose to wait for the NTSB's final report.

00:04:09Now, before I move any further, you know, it's my Republican colleagues. I need to speak to my Republican colleagues.

00:04:17The Railway Safety Act in the Senate is supported by President Trump and is authored by Vice Presidential Nominee Senator Vance.

00:04:27Representative Moulton and I took that bill and we added four key safety components.

00:04:33The Confidential Close Call Reporting System, Ask Rail Connectivity Pilot Program, the telematics to modernize the tank car fleet, and more funding for the Railroad Crossing Elimination Grant Program.

00:04:47Taking Senator Vance's bill and adding these four safety provisions makes this a very good rail safety bill and I humbly ask for your support because it's the right thing to do.

00:05:01I have read every page of the East Palestine Final Report and reports related to other derailments and tragic incidents across the rail network.

00:05:10The idea that we do not evolve in the safety realm is indefensible. I extended invites to several of the Class 1 Railroad CEOs.

00:05:21It was my intention that they would use this opportunity to discuss the positive policies their companies have undertaken in the area of safety.

00:05:30Some of these railroads, they have good stories to tell. I have personally visited several of them.

00:05:37I visited CN's operation in Homewood, Illinois and it was top tier.

00:05:42The types of technologies they are developing are state-of-the-art and will save lives and I commend them for their efforts.

00:05:51But we can do more.

00:05:54I am eager to listen to the witnesses today and I look forward to asking the panel questions.

00:06:01I now recognize Ranking Member Ms. Wilson for five minutes for an opening statement.

00:06:06Thank you Mr. Chair for convening this important hearing.

00:06:12The safety of freight and passenger railroads and the communities that they travel through should be our top priority on this subcommittee.

00:06:22The Norfolk Southern train derailment in East Palestine shocked the nation.

00:06:28But we cannot lose sight that there have been over 1,500 rail incidents since then.

00:06:36In my district in Florida, collisions between cars and trains remain a persistent problem.

00:06:44While technological solutions to improve rail safety exist, it is clear that railroading's overall safety culture has room to improve.

00:06:55My top priority has always been rail safety and I am thankful that our Chair has made it a priority with this legislation alongside other members of this committee.

00:07:09Representatives Moulton, Representative Sykes, and Deluzio.

00:07:14I hope the information from today's hearing will encourage us to mark up this legislation and send a bipartisan rail safety bill to the floor.

00:07:27No transportation accident has a single cause.

00:07:32The NTSB's report on the Norfolk Southern derailment makes it clear that there were many causes of the derailment

00:07:41and the decision to vent and burn vinyl chloride under the mistaken belief that the tank cars were in imminent danger of exploding.

00:07:54According to the report, 26% of cars that did not derail had reportable defects despite being inspected before departure.

00:08:06I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about what railroading practices need to change to catch defects like these.

00:08:17In the year and a half since the derailment, many media outlets have reported that carmen have had less than 90 seconds to inspect a rail car

00:08:30or have been pressured to release cars known to be defective.

00:08:36Fortunately, after the derailment, the train in East Palestine had two crew members and one trainee on board

00:08:45who were able to respond swiftly to the accident and derailment.

00:08:50Thanks to their quick actions, they moved the locomotive away from the fire,

00:08:55preventing additional fires and dangers to the first responders and the surrounding community.

00:09:02If only one person had been on board, they would not have been able to do that so quickly.

00:09:09So I'm glad to see that Chairman Neal's legislation ensures two-person crews.

00:09:17I'm also concerned by the NTSB's findings that despite having bearing detectors placed on an average of every 15 miles prior to the derailment site,

00:09:31the crew did not know that the bearing was in danger of failure before the train derailed in East Palestine.

00:09:40Expanding the use of hot bearing detectors will only improve rail if the detectors are active

00:09:48and the spacing gives sufficient time to stop a faulty train before a catastrophic failure.

00:09:56Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this hearing, and I yield back.

00:10:01The gentlelady yields. I now recognize Ranking Member of the Full Committee, Mr. Larson, for five minutes for an opening.

00:10:07Thank you, Chair Nells and Ranking Member Wilson, for holding today's hearing on rail safety.

00:10:12Ensuring safety in every mode of transportation should always be this committee's top priority.

00:10:17Since the Norfolk Southern derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, committee Democrats have been calling for a rail safety hearing and rail safety legislation.

00:10:25In May of 2023, every T&I Democrat signed a letter asking for a rail safety hearing,

00:10:31highlighting the dozens of outstanding rail safety recommendations from the National Transportation Safety Board.

00:10:37Now that the NTSB has issued its final report on the derailments of Committee Chair Nells, along with committee Democrats,

00:10:43Representatives Moulton, Sykes, and Deluzio, have introduced rail safety legislation.

00:10:48Today's hearing is an opportunity to hear a variety of perspectives on the NTSB's final report,

00:10:54which includes more than 30 additional rail safety recommendations, several of which require congressional action.

00:11:01Nearly a year and a half ago, we all watched as a giant plume of toxic fumes was released into the sky after the Norfolk Southern derailment.

00:11:08Fortunately, no one died as a result of the derailment, but it remains a stark reminder of why we need to be vigilant about rail safety.

00:11:16That's why T&I Democrats held a rail safety roundtable in March to hear from communities and rail workers impacted by rail accidents.

00:11:24Mayor Frank Moran of Hiram, Georgia, told members that legislation concerning blocked crossings would help his community.

00:11:31National League of Cities Executive Director Clarence Anthony told members that thousands of communities across the country support common sense rail safety legislation.

00:11:40Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trayman National Legislative Representative Vince Verna expressed concern that the freight railroads continue to pile on to the tally of rail accidents and derailments.

00:11:51Sheet Metal, Air, Rail, and Transportation Workers International Representative Peter Kennedy said Congress needs to make freight rail safety a priority because meaningful change is needed in the industry.

00:12:01And Anna Sevidas, an owner of a small business in East Palestine, Ohio, highlighted how this dangerous derailment devastated her community.

00:12:09Meanwhile, rail safety accidents and incidents continue to occur. Over the last decade, the trends have not improved.

00:12:15In Washington State alone, there are 193 train accidents, 71 grade crossing incidents, and 167 railroad right-of-way trespass fatalities over the last five years,

00:12:28including a Burlington Road and Santa Fe derailment that spilled over 3,000 gallons of diesel fuel on the Swinomish Indian Reservation in March of 2023.

00:12:37While trains are getting longer, freight railroads continue to shrink their workforce.

00:12:41From 2015 to 2022, Class 1 railroads laid off 55% of mechanical employees, 44% of locomotive repair employees, and 43% of rail car repair employees.

00:12:52And in 2023, there were 114 more rail accidents than in 2022.

00:12:57So I look forward to this committee passing legislation to address rail safety concerns.

00:13:01The Rail Safety Enhancement Act contains the language that passed out of the Senate Commerce Committee last May.

00:13:06It addresses NTSB recommendations to expand the high-hazard flammable trains definition, establish requirements for wayside bearing defect detectors,

00:13:15and accelerate the removal of DOT-111 tank cars from flammable liquids of service.

00:13:21The bill also provides needed funding for hazardous materials emergency responder training.

00:13:26And importantly, it mandates the Class 1 railroads to join the Federal Railroad Administration's confidential close call reporting system.

00:13:34And the bipartisan infrastructure law, BIL, supercharged investment in rail with $102 billion in planned funding.

00:13:41Many of these investments will improve safety, along with making service improvements.

00:13:46Last year, the City of Blaine in my district, for instance, received a $9.5 million raise grant to begin work on the Bell Road BNSF at-grade crossing.

00:13:56That town can now begin to resolve the issues at the crossing that I first heard about more than 20 years ago as a freshman member of the House of Representatives.

00:14:04And I'm pleased that project is advancing to improve safety and accessibility, reduce congestion, create jobs, and keep the regional economy moving.

00:14:12BIL also includes $3 billion to separate or close grade crossings through the Railroad Crossing Elimination Grant Program,

00:14:20and $5 billion to enhance the safety, efficiency, and reliability of rail through the Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvement, or CRISI, grant program.

00:14:29I expect great results for communities from these grants and additional rail funding to come, but there is more to do.

00:14:35So I thank the Chair, I thank the Ranking Member, and the witnesses, including our new member of the House of Representatives from Ohio.

00:14:42I look forward to hearing all their testimony.

00:14:44With that, I yield back.

00:14:45The gentleman yields.

00:14:46I'd like now to recognize our witnesses and thank them for being here today.

00:14:50Take a moment to explain our lighting system.

00:14:52There are three lights in front of you.

00:14:54Green means go.

00:14:55Yellow means you're running out of time.

00:14:57And red concludes your remarks.

00:15:00I ask you to ask consent that the witnesses' full statements be included in the record without objection so ordered.

00:15:06I ask you to ask consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in writing without objection so ordered.

00:15:17I also ask you to ask consent that the record remain open for 15 days for any additional comments and information submitted by the members or witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing without objection so ordered.

00:15:30As your written testimony has been made part of the record, the Subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes.

00:15:37With that, we will turn to our first panel.

00:15:40And Rep. Rooley from the great state of Ohio, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.

00:15:49Thank you.

00:15:55Chairman Nels, Ranking Member Wilson, and members of the Subcommittee,

00:15:58thank you for allowing me to testify on this critical issue of rail safety.

00:16:03Let me be clear.

00:16:04The state of our rail safety is a global disgrace.

00:16:07With Norfolk Southern train derailed in East Palestine just 16 miles from my home, President Biden was nowhere to be found.

00:16:15When Secretary Buttigieg commented on his behalf, 10 days after the fact, he blew off the situation by saying,

00:16:23there are roughly 1,000 cases a year of train derailing.

00:16:271,000 derailments a year?

00:16:29That is pure government negligence.

00:16:32The East Palestine disaster wasn't an isolated incident.

00:16:36It was a wake-up call that I heard but fell on deaf ears everywhere in the government.

00:16:41Derailments are not limited to just one state or company, and issues with rail safety are not limited to derailments.

00:16:49Some other tragic incidents that we have seen since February 3rd, 2023 include the death of Louis Schuster,

00:16:57a Norfolk Southern conductor killed switching operations in Cleveland, Ohio, March of 2023.

00:17:05The death of Danny Brent Wilkins, a Union Pacific track worker killed while making track repairs in Arkansas of April 2024.

00:17:16Class 1 railroads are asleep at the switch while our communities live in fear that each passing train could be the next disaster.

00:17:24This is unacceptable.

00:17:26The consequences of inaction are not limited to human costs, but also financial.

00:17:33In the years since February 23rd, 2023, Norfolk Southern's costs tied to the derailment are estimated at over $1.1 billion.

00:17:46That's billion with a B.

00:17:48And that doesn't even include the meager settlement agreed to by the Department of Justice.

00:17:53Who ultimately pays for this?

00:17:56The American people through increased costs of goods shipped over these rail networks.

00:18:02When my neighbors are already paying for the disaster with their health.

00:18:07I've seen their rashes.

00:18:09I've listened to their stories of their doctor's visits told to me with scratchy voices and sore throats.

00:18:14This is a slap in all of their faces.

00:18:18The National Transportation Safety Board, under Chair Jennifer Homendy's leadership,

00:18:24has made 27 recommendations to rail companies that remained unfulfilled to this day.

00:18:34One of these could have saved the conductor's life in Cleveland.

00:18:37A simple cage on the front of the cart to protect against collisions.

00:18:41Yet it remains unimplemented.

00:18:45Another recommends Norfolk Southern ensure all relative expertise regarding hazmat on board is shared with on-scene responders.

00:18:55OxyVinyl manufactured the chemicals on board the train in East Palestine.

00:19:00They recommended not to venom burn the contents of the train.

00:19:06But this recommendation wasn't shared with first responders until after the fact.

00:19:13A third recommends Norfolk Southern immediately provide first responders with an accurate list of materials on board.

00:19:20It took them a full hour to provide this to East Palestine, putting those first responders at extreme risk.

00:19:28Many of these 27 recommendations are included in Chairman Nell's H.R. 8996,

00:19:36which is a bipartisan effort that should appeal to anyone who recognizes the NTSB's critical role in transportation safety.

00:19:47You may be wondering why Chairman Nell, myself, and many other co-sponsors introduced this bill.

00:19:53We are doing it because Class 1 railroads can't be trusted to do it on their own.

00:19:59NTSB recommendation R26 was issued over a decade ago in response to a head-on collision in Oklahoma.

00:20:08It urged Class 1 railroads to install audio and image recordings with a minimum of 12-hour recording capability.

00:20:18The NTSB reiterated the importance of this recommendation in a June letter on the East Palestine disaster.

00:20:26That train had a 12-hour recording capability.

00:20:30However, Norfolk Southern overrode that, but only provided 20 minutes surrounding the derailment itself.

00:20:39With Norfolk Southern controlling a quarter of this nation's rail network,

00:20:43this disregard for safety recommendations is just purely unacceptable.

00:20:50We must take decisive action to ensure the safety and security of this nation's rail networks by passing H.R. 8996.

00:21:00This bill has been co-sponsored by nine members and counting,

00:21:06and includes many parts of Senator Vance and Senator Brown's already vetted S. 576.

00:21:13This bill requires DOT to

00:21:16Issue regulations so shippers must provide first responders with advance notice of hazardous trains.

00:21:24Establish requirements for wayside detectors.

00:21:28Require a minimum two-man crew on certain freight trains.

00:21:33In my opinion, this is the most important words out of my mouth today.

00:21:38Create hazardous material emergency preparedness fund.

00:21:43Provide funds for telematics and gateway devices.

00:21:48Phase out certain flawed tank cars like those that derailed in East Palestine by May 21st, 2027, giving them lead time to make this happen.

00:21:58Require Amtrak and all Class 1 railroads to enroll a confidential close call reporting system.

00:22:06Provide funds to study the 20 most frequently blocked crossing in at least 10 states.

00:22:13These aren't suggestions. These are imperatives.

00:22:18Employing a second crewman and cab provides a necessary layer of defense against potential disasters,

00:22:26and we as legislators must now act as that second crewman

00:22:30and protecting the American people from inaction of rail companies and the administration.

00:22:40The cost of inaction is way too high.

00:22:43We've seen the economic disruption and environmental damage and the threat to human life.

00:22:49My community has seen it firsthand.

00:22:52I personally arrived at Ground Zero 18 hours after the train derailment in East Palestine.

00:22:57The impact was immediate and personal.

00:23:00Every single time I left that site, I had a sore throat.

00:23:04And to this day, right now, today, my family that lives 15 miles apart are still using bottled water.

00:23:11The effects of this disaster are not abstract.

00:23:14They're part of our daily lives in East Palestine.

00:23:17How many more residents need to be displaced?

00:23:20How many more people need to lose their lives before we say enough is enough?

00:23:24Our nation's railroad network used to be the crowning achievement of American industry.

00:23:31It once was hailed as a marvel of innovation, completed with a gold spike,

00:23:37offering the promise of a brighter and more prosperous future,

00:23:41but now simply exists as a nightmare in the minds of the backyards of the millions of Americans.

00:23:47I urge this committee to take decisive action.

00:23:50Hold the Class 1 railroads and the Department of Transportation accountable.

00:23:55Demand stricter regulations and enforcement.

00:23:58Our communities can't afford to wait.

00:24:01The next train derailment could be in your own neighborhood.

00:24:04By all of us supporting H.R. 8996, we're not only improving,

00:24:09but we're also acknowledging the vital work of the NTSB and Chairman Homendy.

00:24:14This is our chance to take meaningful, bipartisan action

00:24:18on a critical issue affecting every state and every district in the United States.

00:24:23Thank you so much.

00:24:25Thank you, Rep. Rooley. Any other questions? Any questions?

00:24:29Seeing none, thank you. I want to thank you for being here.

00:24:32This concludes our first panel. You are excused, sir.

00:24:39I would like to now welcome our second panel of witnesses.

00:24:48Thank you.

00:25:18As a reminder, your written testimony has been made part of the record,

00:25:29so the subcommittee asks that you limit your oral remarks to five minutes.

00:25:34With that, Chair Homendy, you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony.

00:25:39Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today.

00:25:43Since 1967, the National Transportation Safety Board

00:25:46has been at the forefront of railroad safety.

00:25:50While our investigation of the East Palestine derailment

00:25:53has garnered significant attention, we launch to rail accidents almost weekly.

00:25:58This past Saturday, we sent a team to Norfolk, Virginia,

00:26:02to investigate an accident involving a Norfolk Southern conductor

00:26:06who sustained severe injuries during switching operations in a rail yard.

00:26:11Last March, a Norfolk Southern conductor was killed

00:26:13when the train collided with a dump truck at a grade crossing in Cleveland.

00:26:18The conductor was riding the lead rail car during a shoving movement

00:26:22when he was pinned between the rail car and the dump truck during the collision.

00:26:26A Union Pacific employee was also killed during a shoving movement

00:26:30just a few weeks ago, this time in an Illinois rail yard.

00:26:34The NTSB has issued multiple recommendations urging railroads and the FRA

00:26:39to prevent employees from riding rail cars during certain movements.

00:26:44Those recommendations remain open, meaning they have not been addressed.

00:26:48In fact, we have 215 open recommendations that will transform rail safety,

00:26:55but only if they're acted on.

00:26:58According to the railroad's own data, the accident rate in rail yards

00:27:03has soared more than 50% over the last decade,

00:27:06reaching levels we haven't seen since 2005.

00:27:10And over half of our open rail investigations involve employee injuries,

00:27:16some of which were fatal, all of which are unacceptable and preventable.

00:27:21I urge this committee to exercise robust oversight over rail employee safety,

00:27:27which is clearly at risk.

00:27:30Turning to East Palestine, we determined that the probable cause

00:27:33of the derailment and hazmat release was the failure of a wheel bearing

00:27:38that overheated and caused the axle to separate, derailing 38 cars of the train.

00:27:44Eleven of those cars contained hazmat.

00:27:47Three were mechanically breached, releasing their contents that ignited.

00:27:53All of those mechanically breached tank cars were DOT-111s.

00:27:58We determined the massive fire likely began with the release

00:28:01of a flammable liquid from a punctured DOT-111 tank car,

00:28:07which is not scheduled for replacement until May 2029.

00:28:12Other DOT-111s that breached were transporting combustible liquids.

00:28:17Those aren't covered under the FAST Act.

00:28:20And this is a vital finding I want to drive home.

00:28:23We determined that if those DOT-111 tank cars

00:28:27had not sustained mechanical breaches during the derailment,

00:28:31the DOT-105 tank cars transporting vinyl chloride

00:28:36likely would not have been exposed to the fire conditions

00:28:40that led to the concerns about polymerization

00:28:43and ultimately the vent and burn actions in East Palestine.

00:28:47We also determined that Norfolk Southern failed to provide responders

00:28:51with information on the contents of the rail cars for hours.

00:28:55This not only delayed the evacuation of residents,

00:28:58but prolonged firefighters' exposures to extremely hazardous conditions.

00:29:03They couldn't rely on the placards, which had melted,

00:29:06and only one responder we interviewed was able to access AskRail.

00:29:11Complicating matters, there are restrictions in Ohio

00:29:14for training volunteer firefighters, many of whom bravely responded

00:29:18despite having received minimal training.

00:29:21Radio communications were a significant challenge.

00:29:2448 agencies responded and struggled to communicate with each other.

00:29:30And importantly, we determined that Norfolk Southern

00:29:33failed to communicate relevant expertise

00:29:36and dissenting opinions to the incident commander.

00:29:39They also inaccurately represented that the tank cars

00:29:42were at risk of a catastrophic failure,

00:29:45which created unwarranted urgency

00:29:48and led to the unnecessary decision

00:29:51to vent and burn the five vinyl chloride tank cars.

00:29:55As a result of this investigation, we issued 37 findings

00:30:00and 34 new safety recommendations,

00:30:03all of which Norfolk Southern has endorsed.

00:30:06Thank you, Chairman Nells and committee members

00:30:09for your rail safety leadership.

00:30:11I look forward to your questions.

00:30:13Thank you, Chairwoman Homendy.

00:30:15Administrator Ballas, you're recognized for five minutes.

00:30:18Chairman Nells, Ranking Member Larson,

00:30:22Ranking Member Wilson,

00:30:24and members of the subcommittee,

00:30:26thank you for the opportunity to testify today

00:30:29on improving railroad safety.

00:30:32I want to pause to remember Representative Payne,

00:30:36who was a champion for making freight and passenger rails

00:30:39safe, reliable, and accessible.

00:30:42I join in remembering him fondly.

00:30:48Today, I am pleased to join you to discuss rail safety.

00:30:52FRA works every day to advance safety,

00:30:56our core mission, through our safety professionals,

00:31:00partnerships with stakeholders,

00:31:02and investments in rail projects around the country.

00:31:06The Department of Transportation safety personnel

00:31:10were on the ground within hours

00:31:12of the Norfolk Southern derailment in East Palestine

00:31:16and have been investigating the accident.

00:31:19Last week, FRA reported on our investigation,

00:31:23which found a roller bearing overheated and failed,

00:31:28causing the derailment.

00:31:30FRA also determined that NS's procedures

00:31:34and inadequate staffing for communicating information

00:31:38from the hot bearing detectors to the train crew

00:31:42may have contributed to the accident.

00:31:44And FRA, in consultation with the Pipeline Hazardous Materials

00:31:49Safety Administration,

00:31:51concluded that the use of a general purpose

00:31:54DOT-111 specification tank car

00:31:57to transport butyl acrylite

00:32:01contributed to the severity of the accident.

00:32:04In response to the derailment,

00:32:06Secretary Buttigieg laid out a three-part push,

00:32:10pressing the major railroads

00:32:11and inviting Congress to join us

00:32:15in the efforts to increase freight rail safety

00:32:18and hold railroads accountable.

00:32:21For over a year,

00:32:23the Department of Transportation has continued those calls

00:32:26while concurrently taking important actions

00:32:30to make freight rail safer.

00:32:33For instance, FRA conducted 7,500 focused inspections

00:32:38on high-hazard flammable train routes

00:32:42and began collecting train length data.

00:32:45FRA deployed billions of dollars

00:32:48for rail improvement and safety projects,

00:32:51including 63 projects that address

00:32:53more than 400 grade crossings

00:32:56through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Laws

00:32:59Railroad Crossing Elimination Grant Program.

00:33:02FRA also began collecting information

00:33:04from crews and dispatchers

00:33:06at two Class 1 freight railroads

00:33:09through pilots of the C3RS program.

00:33:13And work continues with FRA's

00:33:16Wayside Detector Railroad Safety Advisory Committee

00:33:20Working Group.

00:33:22I am encouraged to see the renewed,

00:33:24bipartisan interest in this chamber

00:33:27for legislation that would add to these safety actions.

00:33:32While FRA will continue using our existing authorities,

00:33:37we need Congress to do its part.

00:33:40Because data shows that the Class 1

00:33:43freight railroad safety performance

00:33:45has stagnated over the last decade

00:33:48and by some measures, deteriorated.

00:33:51For yard derailments,

00:33:53data show that the rate in 2023

00:33:56was 51% higher compared to 10 years ago.

00:34:00While the deterioration of derailment rates

00:34:04has not been uniform,

00:34:06recent data does show

00:34:08one Class 1 freight railroad

00:34:10experiencing an improvement

00:34:12in reductions of derailments during 2023.

00:34:16The overall rate of accidents

00:34:18not at grade crossings

00:34:20has been rising slowly throughout the decade,

00:34:23peaking in 2022.

00:34:25While not all derailments are equal,

00:34:27yard derailments should be taken seriously.

00:34:31Since July 2023,

00:34:33FRA has issued four safety bulletins

00:34:36related to rail yard fatalities.

00:34:39Just earlier this month,

00:34:41a conductor lost his life

00:34:43in a rail yard accident.

00:34:45This is neither acceptable

00:34:47nor inevitable.

00:34:49And that's why FRA has been pushing

00:34:51the industry to do better.

00:34:54For instance, FRA's issued

00:34:5519 safety advisories and safety bulletins

00:34:59calling for attention and action

00:35:01on issues like shove movements,

00:35:04switching cars, wayside detectors,

00:35:06long trains, and roadway maintenance machines.

00:35:10FRA also finalized new safety rules

00:35:12on train crew size,

00:35:14ensuring that crews have

00:35:16emergency escape breathing apparatus,

00:35:18certifying dispatcher and signal employees

00:35:21and requiring railroads to develop

00:35:23fatigue risk management plans.

00:35:25FRA's made progress on rail safety,

00:35:28but history has shown

00:35:30that the major freight railroads

00:35:32and many in Congress are eager

00:35:34not to settle for the status quo.

00:35:36Like the American public,

00:35:38FRA and DOT think that is unacceptable.

00:35:42I urge all of you and your colleagues

00:35:45in both chambers to act quickly

00:35:47on common sense rail safety measures.

00:35:49Thank you.

00:35:51Thank you, Administrator Bowles.

00:35:53Deputy Administrator Brown,

00:35:55you have five minutes.

00:35:57Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:35:59Good afternoon, Ranking Member Wilson,

00:36:01Ranking Member Larson,

00:36:03members of the subcommittee.

00:36:05Appreciate the opportunity to be here

00:36:07to testify on behalf of the Pipeline

00:36:09and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration

00:36:11as it relates to our hazardous materials safety

00:36:13and rail safety programs.

00:36:15As I testified earlier this year

00:36:17before this subcommittee,

00:36:19safety is and remains a top priority

00:36:21of the secretary, the department,

00:36:23and our agency.

00:36:25Safety is the protection of hazardous materials

00:36:27by all modes of transportation.

00:36:29That's trucks, trains, planes,

00:36:31automobiles, vessels, drones,

00:36:33which amounts to nearly one in ten goods

00:36:36that are transported commercially

00:36:38in the United States,

00:36:40everything from nuclear waste

00:36:42to bulk petroleum fuels

00:36:44to lithium-ion batteries

00:36:46to spacecraft being transported

00:36:48to spaceports around the world.

00:36:50With respect to rail transport,

00:36:52to help ensure the safest,

00:36:53safest hazardous materials

00:36:55transportation system in the world,

00:36:57PHMSA largely focuses on establishing

00:36:59and updating standards for tank cars

00:37:01and operational requirements

00:37:03for hazardous materials carriage,

00:37:05collaborating with the Federal Railroad Administration

00:37:07in enforcing those standards,

00:37:09investing in research and development,

00:37:11participating in investigations,

00:37:13and establishing requirements

00:37:15for providing information

00:37:17to first responders

00:37:19as well as providing funding

00:37:21for training those first responders.

00:37:23While the Federal Railroad sector

00:37:25and the global economy

00:37:27are increasingly dynamic

00:37:29and rapidly changing,

00:37:31our challenges as an agency

00:37:33are as difficult as ever.

00:37:35Since joining the agency,

00:37:37I have made it a goal

00:37:39to visit with victims of pipeline

00:37:41and hazardous materials-related incidents

00:37:43from Bellingham, Washington,

00:37:45with ranking member,

00:37:47to Satarsha, Mississippi,

00:37:49to Marshall, Michigan,

00:37:51and East Palestine, Ohio.

00:37:53In the case of the 2023

00:37:55Norfolk Southern derailment,

00:37:57PHMSA personnel were immediately

00:37:59on the ground responding to that incident

00:38:01and supporting the National Transportation

00:38:03Safety Board's investigation.

00:38:05Once much of the initial response

00:38:07was completed,

00:38:09the FRA Administrator and I

00:38:11were on scene to support

00:38:13the tank car inspections

00:38:15and to meet with and solicit

00:38:17feedback from the workers

00:38:19and first responders.

00:38:21And also for the first time,

00:38:23we were able to meet with

00:38:25investigators and first responders.

00:38:27The brave first responders

00:38:29for this incident were critical

00:38:31in helping us develop major changes

00:38:33to our hazardous materials

00:38:35response regulations for railroads,

00:38:37which we recently announced

00:38:39as part of our new real-time

00:38:41train consist rulemaking.

00:38:43We have known for decades

00:38:45that the much stronger designed

00:38:47DOT-117 and 105 tank cars

00:38:49reduced safety risk

00:38:51during incidents

00:38:53and advocated for their

00:38:55expanded use in rail transport.

00:38:57The NTSB noted

00:38:59in its most recent report

00:39:01that in the vast majority

00:39:03of accidents involving DOT-111

00:39:05tank cars they examined,

00:39:07the hazardous materials releases

00:39:09likely would have been prevented

00:39:11or reduced by the use of a more

00:39:13robust tank car specification

00:39:15such as the 117s,

00:39:17which have the thicker tank shell,

00:39:19thermal protection,

00:39:21and consistent use of full height

00:39:23in the city of Quebec.

00:39:25It killed nearly 50 people

00:39:27and destroyed dozens of buildings.

00:39:29PHMSA and the FRA moved

00:39:31with haste to develop

00:39:33an aggressive and comprehensive

00:39:35high-hazard flammable train rule

00:39:37to, among other things,

00:39:39phase out the DOT-111 tank cars

00:39:41in favor of newer and stronger

00:39:43and much better performing cars.

00:39:45Unfortunately, a 2016

00:39:47congressional mandate,

00:39:49just months after we finished

00:39:51our work, delayed that phase

00:39:53out, and that remains in place

00:39:55unless Congress acts to change it.

00:39:57Mr. Chairman, I know the Secretary

00:39:59was pleased to hear your support

00:40:01for a quicker phase out,

00:40:03and I echo those sentiments.

00:40:05In closing, PHMSA is eager

00:40:07to work with this subcommittee

00:40:09to advance bipartisan legislation

00:40:11that improves the safety

00:40:13of hazardous materials

00:40:14transportation by rail.

00:40:16The success of our hazardous

00:40:18materials safety initiatives

00:40:20depend heavily on the dedicated

00:40:21and uphold the highest

00:40:22safety standards in the world.

00:40:24Their commitment is the driving

00:40:25force in executing our agency's

00:40:27crucial role in overseeing

00:40:28the safe transportation

00:40:29of hazardous materials.

00:40:31However, as members of this

00:40:32subcommittee have pointed out,

00:40:34too often action is delayed

00:40:35until after a major incident occurs.

00:40:38PHMSA stands ready to work

00:40:40with you to proactively advance

00:40:42precautionary safety measures.

00:40:44And thank you for your efforts

00:40:46to advance the bipartisan

00:40:47railroad safety legislation

00:40:48before you.

00:40:49We look forward to working

00:40:50with you to improve

00:40:51hazardous material safety

00:40:52to protect our communities.

00:40:54Look forward to your questions.

00:40:56Thank you, Mr. Brown.

00:40:57Mr. Sloan, you are recognized

00:40:58for five minutes.

00:41:00Chairman Nels,

00:41:01Ranking Member Wilson

00:41:02and members of the subcommittee,

00:41:03thank you for the opportunity

00:41:04to join this panel today

00:41:06to discuss rail safety

00:41:07and important lessons

00:41:08from the tragic events

00:41:09related to the

00:41:10East Palestine derailment.

00:41:12The American Chemistry Council

00:41:13shares the committee's goal

00:41:14to advance transportation safety

00:41:16and to protect public health

00:41:17and the environment.

00:41:18We also share your gratitude

00:41:19to the emergency responders,

00:41:21government officials

00:41:22and rail workers

00:41:23for their tireless efforts

00:41:24responding to the incident.

00:41:26And we thank the NTSB

00:41:27for its thorough investigation.

00:41:30The East Palestine incident

00:41:31is a strong reminder

00:41:32that more work is needed,

00:41:34and ACC is committed

00:41:35to working with Congress,

00:41:37the administration

00:41:38and all stakeholders

00:41:39to further improve

00:41:40freight rail

00:41:41and hazardous materials

00:41:42transportation safety.

00:41:44ACC represents

00:41:45the leading companies

00:41:46in the business of chemistry

00:41:48Our members manufacture

00:41:49products that make

00:41:50our lives healthier,

00:41:51safer

00:41:52and more sustainable.

00:41:53Each year,

00:41:54our industry ships

00:41:55more than 2.3 million

00:41:56carloads by rail.

00:41:58We ship chemicals

00:41:59because the country

00:42:00needs these essential products

00:42:02to support virtually

00:42:03every aspect of daily life.

00:42:05ACC and its members

00:42:06are committed

00:42:07to transporting

00:42:08these products safely.

00:42:09We demonstrate

00:42:10this commitment

00:42:11through Responsible Care,

00:42:12our environmental,

00:42:13health,

00:42:14safety

00:42:15and security

00:42:16performance initiative.

00:42:17In addition,

00:42:18our ChemTrek

00:42:19and TransCare programs

00:42:20provide specialized training

00:42:22and critical information

00:42:23to local emergency responders.

00:42:26While rail

00:42:27is already recognized

00:42:28as the safest way

00:42:29to transport hazardous

00:42:30materials over land,

00:42:32ACC supports

00:42:33a multi-layered approach

00:42:34to further advance safety,

00:42:36including steps

00:42:37to reduce derailments,

00:42:39minimize the risk

00:42:40of hazmat release,

00:42:41and strengthen

00:42:42emergency response.

00:42:44ACC believes

00:42:45that bipartisan

00:42:46Railroad Safety

00:42:47Enhancement Act

00:42:48and the Senate

00:42:49Railway Safety Act

00:42:50provide a solid foundation

00:42:51to move us forward.

00:42:53I want to focus

00:42:54on one element

00:42:55of overall rail safety,

00:42:56improving tank car performance.

00:42:58It's important

00:42:59to recognize

00:43:00that shippers,

00:43:01not railroads,

00:43:02own or lease the cars

00:43:03used to ship their products

00:43:04and have made

00:43:05significant investments

00:43:06in tank car safety.

00:43:08ACC members

00:43:09are currently

00:43:10upgrading their tank cars

00:43:11used to transport

00:43:12flammable liquids,

00:43:13replacing DOT-111 cars

00:43:14with cars built

00:43:15to newer DOT-117 standards.

00:43:18These actions

00:43:19require significant

00:43:20long-term planning

00:43:21and capital investment.

00:43:23The FAST Act deadline

00:43:24for the final group

00:43:25of these cars

00:43:26is May 1, 2029.

00:43:28I want to clarify

00:43:29that prior to the FAST Act,

00:43:30the phase-out requirement

00:43:31applied only

00:43:32to DOT-111 cars

00:43:34carried on

00:43:35high-hazard flammable trains.

00:43:37It would not

00:43:38have applied

00:43:39to the train

00:43:40that derailed

00:43:41in East Palestine.

00:43:42The FAST Act

00:43:43extended the scope

00:43:44to apply to all

00:43:45flammable liquid cars

00:43:46regardless of

00:43:47what type of train

00:43:48they are on.

00:43:49ACC supported

00:43:50the FAST Act.

00:43:52ACC also supports

00:43:53establishing

00:43:54an earlier deadline,

00:43:55but it must be

00:43:56consistent with

00:43:57the railcar industry's

00:43:58ability to produce

00:43:59DOT-117 cars

00:44:00while also

00:44:01building,

00:44:02maintaining,

00:44:03and repairing

00:44:04all types of railcars.

00:44:06Industry data

00:44:07suggests that

00:44:08moving up

00:44:09the current deadline

00:44:10by one year

00:44:11may be feasible.

00:44:12ACC believes

00:44:13that the Nels Moulton

00:44:14Bill provides

00:44:15a workable approach.

00:44:16While it accelerates

00:44:17the deadline,

00:44:18it also recognizes

00:44:19that an unworkable

00:44:20phase-out timeline

00:44:21could disrupt

00:44:22critical supply chains.

00:44:23Therefore,

00:44:24the bill asks GAO

00:44:25to review industry capacity

00:44:26and authorizes DOT

00:44:27to extend

00:44:28the time frame

00:44:29if necessary.

00:44:31I'd like to briefly

00:44:32touch on two other

00:44:33aspects of the House Bill.

00:44:34First,

00:44:35ACC strongly

00:44:36supports additional

00:44:37funding for PHMSA's

00:44:38Hazardous Materials

00:44:39Grants Program.

00:44:40The program supports

00:44:41emergency response

00:44:42planning and training

00:44:43activities

00:44:44and is funded by

00:44:45the registration fees

00:44:46paid by shippers

00:44:47and others involved

00:44:48in hazmat transportation.

00:44:50The bill would modify

00:44:51the fee structure,

00:44:52providing flexibility

00:44:53to nearly double

00:44:54the funding

00:44:55of emergency response

00:44:56training programs

00:44:57without disproportionately

00:44:58impacting small business.

00:45:01Second,

00:45:02ACC supports

00:45:03provisions to assist

00:45:04the development

00:45:05and use of onboard

00:45:06telematic systems

00:45:07for railcars.

00:45:08Telematics have

00:45:09the potential

00:45:10to improve

00:45:11better visibility

00:45:12into railcar locations

00:45:13and may help monitor

00:45:14railcar conditions

00:45:15while in transit.

00:45:16The bill's grant funding

00:45:17and pilot programs

00:45:18can help enhance

00:45:19safety benefits

00:45:20of these technologies.

00:45:22Thank you again

00:45:23for the opportunity

00:45:24to testify today.

00:45:25ACC is committed

00:45:26to working with

00:45:27policymakers

00:45:28and our transportation

00:45:29partners

00:45:30to find data-driven

00:45:31solutions

00:45:32so the products

00:45:33of our industry

00:45:34can be delivered

00:45:35safely and without incident.

00:45:36I'd be happy

00:45:37to take questions.

00:45:38Thank you, Mr. Sloan.

00:45:39David Aroca,

00:45:40you are recognized

00:45:41for five minutes.

00:45:42Good afternoon,

00:45:43Chairman Nels,

00:45:44Ranking Members

00:45:45Wilson and Larson,

00:45:46members of the committee,

00:45:47and thank you

00:45:48for the invitation

00:45:49to be here.

00:45:50My name is David Aroca,

00:45:51National Legislative Director

00:45:52for the Transportation

00:45:53Communications Union.

00:45:54I'm here to testify

00:45:55about the imminent

00:45:56and immense

00:45:57need for legislation

00:45:58that improves

00:45:59the safety

00:46:00of our nation's

00:46:01rail network.

00:46:02I'd like to briefly

00:46:03pay my respects

00:46:04to the subcommittee's

00:46:05former chairman,

00:46:06Donald Payne.

00:46:07He was indeed

00:46:08one of the most

00:46:09kindest souls

00:46:10on Capitol Hill,

00:46:11and he cared deeply

00:46:12for railroad workers

00:46:13he will be missed dearly.

00:46:14I also want to extend

00:46:15our union's

00:46:16deepest sympathies

00:46:17to the residents

00:46:18of East Palestine,

00:46:19its surrounding communities,

00:46:20and especially

00:46:21the first responders.

00:46:22Please know

00:46:23that we want

00:46:24the same thing

00:46:25as you,

00:46:26to make sure

00:46:27this never happens again.

00:46:28TCU represents

00:46:29various crafts

00:46:30across the rail industry,

00:46:31but germane

00:46:32to this hearing

00:46:33are the carmen,

00:46:34those tasked

00:46:35with maintaining,

00:46:36repairing,

00:46:37and operating

00:46:38railcars

00:46:39for FRA

00:46:40reportable defects.

00:46:41We represent carmen

00:46:42in every class one

00:46:43all across the country.

00:46:44What I'm about to tell you

00:46:45may seem shocking,

00:46:46but it's the truth.

00:46:47The railroads

00:46:48do not want to know

00:46:49how defective

00:46:50their trains are.

00:46:51Please know

00:46:52that we do not make

00:46:53this conclusion lightly,

00:46:54but it is based

00:46:55on years of watching

00:46:56how the railroads

00:46:57have systematically

00:46:58rigged their operations

00:46:59to avoid

00:47:00and evade

00:47:01quality safety inspections,

00:47:02including cutting

00:47:03the carmen's time

00:47:04to inspect

00:47:05by two-thirds

00:47:06or more,

00:47:07turning off

00:47:08defect detectors

00:47:09when the number

00:47:10of defects

00:47:11identified

00:47:12becomes too inconvenient,

00:47:13and relying

00:47:14upon inspections

00:47:15by untrained crews

00:47:16and utility personnel

00:47:17not despite,

00:47:18but because

00:47:19they are held

00:47:20to a lower

00:47:21regulatory standard.

00:47:22To quote a recent

00:47:24investigative piece

00:47:25from ProPublica,

00:47:26the railroads

00:47:27use performance

00:47:28pay systems

00:47:29that effectively

00:47:30penalize supervisors

00:47:31for taking the time

00:47:32to fix hazards

00:47:33and that pressure them

00:47:34to quash dissent,

00:47:35threatening and firing

00:47:36the very workers

00:47:37they hired

00:47:38to keep their operations safe.

00:47:39As a result,

00:47:40trains with known problems

00:47:41are rolling

00:47:42from yard to yard

00:47:43like ticking time bombs,

00:47:44getting passed down the line

00:47:45for the next crew

00:47:46to defuse

00:47:47or defer again.

00:47:48Unquote.

00:47:49Just recently,

00:47:50the FRA

00:47:51had to halt

00:47:52their safety culture study

00:47:53at Union Pacific,

00:47:54citing that employees

00:47:55were coached

00:47:56in their responses,

00:47:57or that employees

00:47:58were reluctant

00:47:59to even participate,

00:48:00citing intimidation

00:48:01or fear of retaliation.

00:48:03Just last week,

00:48:04the FRA completed

00:48:05a qualitative time study

00:48:06of mechanical inspections

00:48:07across all the Class I's,

00:48:08which is attached

00:48:09to my testimony.

00:48:10Their findings would be

00:48:11eye-opening

00:48:12to non-railroaders.

00:48:13When FRA is present,

00:48:14carmen are given,

00:48:15on average,

00:48:16a mere 1 minute

00:48:17and 38 seconds

00:48:18per car to inspect.

00:48:19Still too short.

00:48:20But when the FRA

00:48:21isn't there,

00:48:22that time drops

00:48:23even further

00:48:24to 44 seconds

00:48:25per car.

00:48:26The FRA

00:48:27is also

00:48:28committed to

00:48:29ensuring

00:48:30the safety

00:48:31of its employees

00:48:32and the safety

00:48:33of their employees.

00:48:34When addressing

00:48:35train crews

00:48:36or utility personnel

00:48:37performing

00:48:38these inspections,

00:48:39quote,

00:48:40report data

00:48:41and time observations

00:48:42do not support

00:48:43confidence

00:48:44in the performance

00:48:45of quality inspections,

00:48:46and that mechanical

00:48:47employees perform

00:48:48a more quality

00:48:49brake test

00:48:50when given

00:48:51adequate time,

00:48:52and this would contribute

00:48:53to a safer train,

00:48:54unquote.

00:48:55Safer trains

00:48:56means fewer defects,

00:48:57fewer injuries,

00:48:58and therefore,

00:48:59fewer East Palisades

00:49:00and therefore,

00:49:01fewer East Palistines.

00:49:02Sadly,

00:49:03the prevailing mindset

00:49:04of the class ones

00:49:05in the current

00:49:06so-called

00:49:07precision scheduled

00:49:08railroading era

00:49:09can be summed up

00:49:10in a common refrain

00:49:11that our members hear

00:49:12every single day

00:49:13from their managers.

00:49:14We're in the business

00:49:15of moving freight,

00:49:16not fixing railcars.

00:49:17In June 2022,

00:49:18TCU Carman Division

00:49:19President Don Grissom

00:49:20testified to this

00:49:21very committee

00:49:22about many of these

00:49:23pressures,

00:49:24but nothing

00:49:25has been done.

00:49:26Fatigue issues

00:49:27remain abound

00:49:28in the industry

00:49:29as forced overtime

00:49:30of 16

00:49:31and even 24-hour shifts

00:49:32now

00:49:33force many carmen

00:49:34to sleep in their cars

00:49:35because they're too

00:49:36tired to drive.

00:49:37I ask members

00:49:38of the committee,

00:49:39if it's too dangerous

00:49:40for you to drive,

00:49:41isn't it too dangerous

00:49:42to work in a railyard?

00:49:43The FRA

00:49:44under Administrator Bowes

00:49:45has been trying

00:49:46to help combat

00:49:47these safety issues,

00:49:48but we believe

00:49:49the agency

00:49:50is under-resourced

00:49:51and their field inspectors

00:49:52lack the teeth

00:49:53to enforce

00:49:54proper compliance.

00:49:55All of the

00:49:56aforementioned reasons

00:49:57is why our union

00:49:58is actively endorsing

00:49:59the legislation

00:50:00introduced by Chairman Nels

00:50:01and Congressman Moulton,

00:50:02just as we support

00:50:03Brown-Vance.

00:50:04We're specifically

00:50:05grateful to Chairman Nels,

00:50:06Senator Vance,

00:50:07and all the Republican

00:50:08co-sponsors

00:50:09for having the courage

00:50:10to step away

00:50:11from party orthodoxy

00:50:12that has historically

00:50:13drawn a partisan line

00:50:14between the railroads

00:50:15and rail labor.

00:50:16And obviously,

00:50:17I want to thank

00:50:18our Democratic friends,

00:50:19including Congressman Deluzio,

00:50:20who has been so focused

00:50:21on this issue,

00:50:22for being long-standing

00:50:23supporters of rail safety

00:50:24efforts and rail workers.

00:50:26Indeed,

00:50:27it seems that

00:50:28both sides of the aisle

00:50:29can agree

00:50:30rail safety

00:50:31should never be

00:50:32a partisan issue.

00:50:33After all,

00:50:34every American agrees

00:50:35that trains

00:50:36need to stay

00:50:37on the tracks.

00:50:38Thank you for the opportunity

00:50:39to testify,

00:50:40and I look forward

00:50:41to your questions.

00:50:42Thank you, Mr. Aroca.

00:50:43Mr. Hines,

00:50:44good to see you.

00:50:45You're recognized

00:50:46for five minutes.

00:50:47Good afternoon,

00:50:48Chairman Nels,

00:50:49Ranking Member Wilson,

00:50:50members of the committee.

00:50:51Thank you for allowing me

00:50:52to testify today.

00:50:53My name is Greg Hines.

00:50:54I am the National Legislative Director

00:50:55for the Transportation Division

00:50:56of Sheet Metal Air Rail

00:50:57and Transportation.

00:50:58Smart TD is the largest

00:50:59labor organization

00:51:00in American railroading.

00:51:01We're extremely thankful

00:51:02to Chairman Nels

00:51:03and Congressman Moulton,

00:51:04as well as the current

00:51:05co-sponsors,

00:51:06for their leadership

00:51:07and willingness

00:51:08to prioritize safety

00:51:09in the railroad industry.

00:51:10Thank you.

00:51:11Thank you.

00:51:12Thank you.

00:51:13Thank you.

00:51:14Thank you.

00:51:15Thank you.

00:51:16Thank you.

00:51:17Thank you.

00:51:18Thank you.

00:51:19Thank you.

00:51:20Thank you.

00:51:21Thank you.

00:51:22Thank you.

00:51:23Thank you.

00:51:24Thank you.

00:51:25Thank you.

00:51:26Thank you.

00:51:27Thank you.

00:51:28Thank you.

00:51:29Thank you.

00:51:30Thank you.

00:51:31Thank you.

00:51:32Thank you.

00:51:33Thank you.

00:51:34Thank you.

00:51:35Thank you.

00:51:36Thank you.

00:51:37Thank you.

00:51:38Thank you.

00:51:39Thank you.

00:51:40Thank you.

00:51:41Thank you.

00:51:42Thank you.

00:51:43Thank you.

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00:51:47Thank you.

00:51:48Thank you.

00:51:49Thank you.

00:51:50Thank you.

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00:51:52Thank you.

00:51:53Thank you.

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00:51:58Thank you.

00:51:59Thank you.

00:52:00Thank you.

00:52:01Thank you.

00:52:02Thank you.

00:52:03Thank you.

00:52:04Thank you.

00:52:05Thank you.

00:52:06Thank you.

00:52:07Thank you.

00:52:08Thank you.

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01:13:35Thank you.

01:13:36Thank you.

01:13:37I'll close with question number 3.

01:13:38Any questions?

01:13:39Questions?

01:13:40Questions?

01:13:41No?

01:13:42There isn't any noise.

01:13:44You're going with the floor.

01:13:50There isn't any noise.

01:13:58Well, it did occur in Pennsylvania because you were right on the border.

01:14:01It could occur anywhere.

01:14:03This is an opportunity to improve rail safety and I hope you'll use it.

01:14:08Thank you and I will yield back.

01:14:10I don't want to say that sounds like an endorsement of our bill, but listen, I now recognize the

01:14:16co-author of the Railroad Safety Enhancement Act, Mr. Moulton, for five minutes.

01:14:21Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you so much for your opening remarks describing

01:14:26this bill.

01:14:27I disassociate myself with those remarks and I'm very proud of the piece of legislation

01:14:31that we've put together in cooperation with so many of the people here, so many of the

01:14:36folks represented here today, including the class ones.

01:14:40At the same time, I want to be careful to disassociate myself with some of our new colleague's

01:14:46remarks at the beginning of this hearing because unlike his partisan attack on the administration,

01:14:51this bill is truly bipartisan and my colleague, Chairman Nellis, has been a wonderful partner.

01:14:58Unlike his vitriol against railroads, Mr. Sloan and others have reminded us that rail

01:15:02is the safest way to transport hazardous materials across the country and so the point of this

01:15:07bill is not to wreck the railroads, but to improve their safety and competitiveness.

01:15:13We want the railroads to be safer and more competitive and to take more trucks off the

01:15:17highways.

01:15:18In 2023, there were 22,543 hazardous materials incidents on our nation's highways compared

01:15:28to 297 freight rail hazmat incidents.

01:15:31If that's not compelling, 22,543 on highways versus 297 on freight rail, I'm not sure what

01:15:39is.

01:15:40But having said that, we want to see 297 go to zero.

01:15:44From 2012 to 2023, there have been zero railway deaths with hazardous materials while there

01:15:50have been 82 fatalities on highways with hazmat.

01:15:54So railroads are already doing pretty well, but we want them to do better.

01:16:00And ultimately, we share the goal of shifting more traffic from unsafe highways to safe

01:16:06railroads.

01:16:07That's a large part of the goal of this bill.

01:16:11Now, Mr. Bowes, after the East Palestine derailment, Norfolk Southern was attacked by an investment

01:16:17fund named Ancora Holdings trying to take over the company, citing the tragedy at East

01:16:22Palestine as a reason for change.

01:16:24Yet their primary line of attack was that the railroad could make better returns by

01:16:28implementing precision-scheduled railroading.

01:16:31This Ohio-based family wealth fund wants a railroad of longer trains manned by fewer

01:16:37personnel and less reinvestment in infrastructure to return more short-term money annually to

01:16:43shareholders.

01:16:44Based on the data we have today, Mr. Bowes, would longer trains, fewer personnel for operations

01:16:50and maintenance, and less reinvestment in infrastructure improve railroad safety?

01:16:55Congressman, thank you for the question.

01:17:00No.

01:17:01No, it would not.

01:17:02Well, in response to Ancora's attacks, Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw changed out his chief

01:17:08operating officer for someone more steeped in precision-scheduled railroading and brought

01:17:13three Ancora directors onto the board.

01:17:16That's the effect of this family wealth fund based in Ohio, the same state where East Palestine

01:17:23occurred.

01:17:26This is going to make things worse.

01:17:29The point is that railroads are safe today.

01:17:33We want to make them safer.

01:17:34But there is work to do, because even if you just look at how Norfolk Southern has handled

01:17:38things over the last two years, it seems like they're moving in the opposite direction.

01:17:42Now, Chair Homendy, I was taken aback by the video you obtained, which showed that the

01:17:47bearing that caused the East Palestine tragedy was on fire for miles before the train derailed.

01:17:52When it passed hot boxes, it was reading 103 degrees and 115 degrees.

01:17:57This did not trigger an alert.

01:18:02Now, this little ring on my finger measures my body temperature all day long.

01:18:07It costs a couple hundred bucks, in addition to taking much more complex measurements of

01:18:10my heart rate, variability, et cetera.

01:18:12If every wheel on a freight train had a temperature sensor like that that transmitted directly

01:18:16to the locomotive engineer to detect any unexplained rise in temperature, would that make trains

01:18:22safer?

01:18:23Yes, it would make trains safer.

01:18:25Mr. Bose, would this technology providing constant real-time measurements directly to

01:18:29operating crews be more effective than simply having more wayside detectors?

01:18:33Yes, sir.

01:18:35Mr. Sloan, would your customers benefit from having real-time location and car health data

01:18:41on their shipments and on the cars hauling them across the country?

01:18:47We believe that onboard sensors have the potential to provide additional safety benefits, but

01:18:52I think there's a lot of work still to develop them.

01:18:54Yeah, but I'm not asking you about that.

01:18:56I asked them about safety.

01:18:57I'm asking would it benefit your customers to know where their cars are and whether they're

01:19:00healthy?

01:19:01Yes.

01:19:02Yes.

01:19:03Right.

01:19:04Mr. Arruca, would your members benefit from knowing real-time data on the health and safety

01:19:09of their rail cars so that they can make appropriate repairs when they get to terminals?

01:19:15Absolutely.

01:19:16And Mr. Hines, would this data make our trains safer across America?

01:19:23Yes.

01:19:26This is the kind of innovation included in this bill.

01:19:29This is innovation that will make railroads safer, that will move this industry forward,

01:19:33that will make them more competitive.

01:19:35That's why this bill is so bipartisan, and it's why we ought to get support not just

01:19:40from all the groups represented up here, but from the class ones as well.

01:19:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:19:44I yield back.

01:19:46Thank you, Mr. Moulton.

01:19:47It's an honor to work with you.

01:19:48I now recognize Mr. LaMalfa for five minutes.

01:19:51Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:19:54To our panelists there, how practical is it, I'll start with Ms. Homendy, to every rail

01:20:04car has approximately eight wheels that would be monitored under what Mr. Moulton was just

01:20:09talking about with a data point on that.

01:20:13So a hundred car train, you'd have 800 pieces of data coming at the engineer.

01:20:18Is that practical for an engineer to be monitoring that much data and still operate a train?

01:20:24The data would probably go to the back office.

01:20:27It would not go to the engineer.

01:20:29All right.

01:20:30So is that manageable at that kind of distance with the amount of trains that are running

01:20:37across the country?

01:20:38Or is there something a little more halfway in between of what we have now with the railroad

01:20:43side heat temperature monitor versus a device on every single bearing on all the rail cars?

01:20:51Hot bearing detectors are effective, but we need more advanced technology to ensure greater

01:20:58safety.

01:20:59That would include acoustic bearing detectors and onboard sensors.

01:21:03Last time we were here, we had some follow-up questions afterwards with you on that where

01:21:07a bearing is indicating 103 degrees, 115, burning up, obviously, is inaccurate information.

01:21:14So were you able to find anything more additional on that, particularly with the Palestine one?

01:21:20Yeah.

01:21:21For this one, so that bearing registered at 38 degrees at milepost 79.8.

01:21:29We know that it was registering at 103 degrees at just 10 miles later in Salem, Ohio.

01:21:36But we also know from video that it was on fire.

01:21:39So 103 degrees doesn't make sense, as you mentioned.

01:21:42And that's because it can take 30 to 60 minutes for the internal defect to result in the actual

01:21:54temperature, which could have been 253 at milepost 49, but that was the highest that

01:22:02would have sensed at that time.

01:22:04Okay.

01:22:05Thank you.

01:22:06Let me shift to the, coming back to the incident, there was the vast number of agencies that

01:22:12were part of the response.

01:22:16My figures is 48 different agencies were involved one way or the other on, at the time of or

01:22:23follow-up on that.

01:22:25Is there, how do you see we can have a better job of coordinating, maybe don't have so many

01:22:30to deal with in a short amount of time to make a key decision?

01:22:33I'm still bothered by the decision to burn the material in the rail car.

01:22:40Are you referring to the vent and burn, or are you referring to the emergency response

01:22:44immediately after the derailment?

01:22:46Immediately after.

01:22:47So immediately after the derailment, emergency responders need information.

01:22:51They need to know what's in those train cars to protect themselves, and they need to know

01:22:57what's in there to protect communities.

01:22:59And that's by getting the train consist from the railroads.

01:23:03By law it's their requirement to provide that information to emergency responders.

01:23:10It is not unknown to a railroad what their network is, where their trains operate.

01:23:16They know when a derailment occurs.

01:23:18We have email, send a train consist to an incident commander.

01:23:25In this case it would have been the East Palestine Fire Department.

01:23:28They were incident command.

01:23:30But the incident commanders did not have access to that train consist for hours.

01:23:40Meanwhile, they were getting exposed to a significant hazardous materials release.

01:23:46I'll also mention radio interoperability was a big issue.

01:23:52These agencies could not talk to each other, and that can happen anywhere, and something

01:23:56that I hope you'll address even in this bill.

01:24:00How do we improve this coordination?

01:24:02How can we improve this coordination amongst information on what's on the rail cars and

01:24:07immediacy for those emergency folks?

01:24:11You know, I don't think ask rail is the answer.

01:24:14I don't.

01:24:15Because there are so many communities across the United States that you may not have internet

01:24:22service or be able to access anything on your phone or even know to access something

01:24:29on your phone.

01:24:30This is information, again, the railroads know what's moving on their network.

01:24:35They know who is on their network.

01:24:38They can provide that information.

01:24:41We email all day long.

01:24:43They know when a derailment occurs.

01:24:45Provide the information in a timely way to 911.

01:24:49It's not hard for them to do that.

01:24:52And they should be held accountable for doing that.

01:24:54They know this before the train leaves a yard, let alone having to worry about whether there's

01:24:59internet connection or not on site.

01:25:03What does it look like to have that information relayed before the train even leaves its original

01:25:08point and picking up that chemical?

01:25:10They have the list.

01:25:12They have it both in electronic form and in paper form.

01:25:16So why could that not be relayed all the way down the line, I guess?

01:25:20It can.

01:25:21Certainly when they know there's a derailment, they'll provide that.

01:25:24Even without a derailment.

01:25:25You know, we should know, hey, this is going to be coming through this town at this approximate

01:25:28time.

01:25:29Why would that be tough?

01:25:31They could.

01:25:33You might have an overload of information to emergency response agencies and when there

01:25:38isn't a derailment that occurs.

01:25:41But when there is one, and here's where I'll say PHMSA just issued a final rule that requires

01:25:47that information to be provided immediately, so perhaps the deputy administrator would

01:25:52like to talk about their final rule.

01:25:53Well, the chairman might get after me on time here.

01:25:55It's up to him.

01:25:57We'll come back for a second round if you want to hang out.

01:26:00I now recognize Mr. Garcia for five minutes.

01:26:04Thank you, Chair and Ranking Member and to all of our witnesses this afternoon.

01:26:10With over 7,400 miles of railroad tracks in Chicagoland and many running through my

01:26:16district, the safety, the public and rail workers is a paramount matter for me.

01:26:23And while rail is a fundamental pillar of Chicago, it also presents risks to communities.

01:26:30A couple of weeks ago, we lost a Union Pacific Rail employee named Justin Pender in a tragic

01:26:38accident at a rail yard in my district.

01:26:41Justin was only 27 years old and was riding a tank car when he was crushed by a passing

01:26:49car or train.

01:26:51My thoughts are with his family and friends in the wake of this tragedy.

01:26:56Simply put, we must do better for our rail workers.

01:26:59While we have been awaiting the NTSB East Palestine report, the findings tell us what

01:27:06we already know.

01:27:07There is a systemic culture of putting profits over the safety of workers and the public.

01:27:15Mr. Aroca, your testimony points to a dramatic decline in the number of rail inspections,

01:27:22pressures to reduce inspection times and managers being docked or evaluations based on how many

01:27:30cars they tag for repairs.

01:27:33Can you explain how these factors contribute to the culture that puts those profits over

01:27:38safety of workers and the public?

01:27:43Thank you, Congressman.

01:27:44Yes, there is largely a sentiment, as the ProPublica article in my testimony mentioned,

01:27:53but also as noted in the FRA's recent letter, there's a notable culture of harassment for

01:28:01managers.

01:28:02If you are tasked with getting something out the door as quick as possible, if the number

01:28:07of defects starts rising above a certain threshold, whether that's found during inspections or

01:28:14by actual detectors, there is a level where management says, no more, we're done, no more

01:28:20defects.

01:28:21Well, that's not safe.

01:28:23You can't not find defects anymore.

01:28:26That doesn't mean that doesn't make them poof, go away.

01:28:29They are still there.

01:28:31We have to do something to alter the processes, alter the ways in which carmen are allowed

01:28:37to actually go out there and inspect things and make sure the trains are actually adequately

01:28:43checked before they head out the door.

01:28:46In a broader perspective, the PSR business model is all about reducing dwell time at

01:28:52all costs.

01:28:54It means, you know, all types of things are going to be shortened, whether it's your inspections,

01:29:02whether it's lacing up hoses, all of the number of actions, and I hope my friend Mr. Hines

01:29:08will pipe in on this, that his members are harassed to shorten their time frames as well.

01:29:16None of that is safe.

01:29:17We believe these processes need to be addressed.

01:29:20Thank you.

01:29:21Chair Humendy, although the wheel bearing that failed on the East Palestine train was

01:29:27indicated in an alert, it was a low-priority alert and did not reflect the true condition

01:29:34of the bearing.

01:29:35In addition to this, NTSB indicated that railroads' operational responses to bearing alerts is

01:29:41an issue in itself.

01:29:43Is there a way to improve the accuracy of these alerts, and in your opinion, are rail

01:29:49workers empowered to respond to alerts in a way that minimizes risk?

01:29:55Well, in this case, there was only one person working that desk at the time.

01:30:03Norfolk Southern had additional personnel.

01:30:06They went down to one.

01:30:07Now they've added more personnel, so having more personnel certainly could help.

01:30:14With respect to our findings and our recommendations, our biggest recommendation is to the Federal

01:30:19Railroad Administration to do research on bearings, including railroad responses to

01:30:27alerts and thresholds and spacing, and then to develop regulations around that.

01:30:35Are rail workers empowered to report these things?

01:30:42We're currently doing a safety culture assessment of Norfolk Southern, and that's one of the

01:30:48questions that we have, that we've done a survey of all of Norfolk Southern's employees,

01:30:54and we're looking at the responses now, and one of the questions we have is, are you empowered?

01:31:00Do you feel empowered to report unsafe conditions?

01:31:04And we're going to have to evaluate that.

01:31:05So it's not a question I could answer right now, but we'll return back to you.

01:31:10We'll be looking forward.

01:31:11Thank you.

01:31:12I yield back, Mr. Chair.

01:31:13The gentleman yields.

01:31:14We're going to now recognize Mr. Williams for five minutes.

01:31:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:31:20Sorry.

01:31:21Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:31:25I won't touch my microphone again.

01:31:28And thank you all for your very detailed answers and response.

01:31:31I'm really trying to swim in the middle of all of these, you know, facts and details,

01:31:39frankly, in the lens of looking at my own community.

01:31:43So we're fortunate to have a significant investment by CSX in my district, but that,

01:31:51of course, also brings the traffic and the rail lines with it.

01:31:56And so the findings of this committee and your testimony are very important in Syracuse,

01:32:02New York, and Central New York.

01:32:06And so that's really the context that I'm trying to understand this.

01:32:10It just touches a lot of families in my area.

01:32:14You know, I understand that accidents happen.

01:32:18And could each of you that can answer this, what's the likelihood of a similar East Palestine

01:32:27type accident, chemical car derailment, fire, happening in my district, in the lines in

01:32:35my community?

01:32:38Congressman, it's hard to answer that exactly.

01:32:46I will say this.

01:32:49Fortunately, unfortunately, we've learned a lot from East Palestine.

01:32:55I think the railroad industry has learned a lot not to repeat, again, the things that

01:33:02did or did not happen there.

01:33:06Anyone else?

01:33:07I would appreciate just any other context.

01:33:08And that's, by the way, very helpful, Mr. Bose.

01:33:11I appreciate that, except the NTSB has investigated numerous rail accidents over decades where

01:33:17we've issued recommendations that we've repeated and repeated and repeated with zero action

01:33:24by the railroads, by some regulators.

01:33:27So yes, I can't quantify a likelihood for number, but could it occur in your district?

01:33:34It could occur in any of your districts.

01:33:37And we will be there, but again, we'll probably have additional recommendations that we have

01:33:44issued previously.

01:33:45As a follow-up to that, are there any recommendations coming out of this particular accident that

01:33:54have been implemented widely and that should give my community more confidence in the rail?

01:34:03Based on the recommendations, I understand that perhaps over decades, many haven't.

01:34:07But in this case, it sounds like there's been a lot of recommendations that have been implemented.

01:34:13Can you comment on those?

01:34:14The deputy administrator might want to now take the time to talk about the final rule.

01:34:20Well, the congressman from California's earlier comments about providing information to first

01:34:26responders in the event of an incident, that is something that Congress directed us to

01:34:32do.

01:34:33But in talking to the firefighters and first responders, and to echo the chairwoman's comments

01:34:38earlier, they didn't have access to the train consist until after they arrived on scene,

01:34:45well after they arrived on scene.

01:34:47And so what we are requiring is that the railroads that have that information at all

01:34:51times get it to the 911 call centers, get it to your first responders so they have that

01:34:56information and are able to respond.

01:34:58The other thing that Congress has been paid attention to, and multiple bills that this

01:35:05committee has introduced to phase out the DOT-111s, which the NTSB chair also emphasized

01:35:12is critically at issue and can significantly reduce the likelihood of a major incident

01:35:19occurring in your district.

01:35:21So phasing that out, that's something that our agency proposed requiring more than ten

01:35:27years ago, but requires Congress taking action.

01:35:32If I could just add, we issued 34 new safety recommendations as a result of this investigation.

01:35:39None of them have been implemented.

01:35:41Several of them have been reiterated, and we have requested over decades to be addressed.

01:35:47Congressman, FRA is going to take those recommendations that NTSB has put forward, and we will accept

01:35:56those recommendations and have already started action on that.

01:36:00One area where congressional legislation will be extremely helpful, and bills like the one

01:36:06the chairman and Congressman Moulton introduced in the ranking member, is an increase in fines

01:36:13for violations of rail safety regulations.

01:36:17You know, often Congress may be a bit of an accusatory body, but occasionally we're a

01:36:23deliberative body.

01:36:24And so your comments are well received and timely and appreciated.

01:36:29So thank you.

01:36:31The gentleman yields.

01:36:33I now recognize Mr. DeLuzio, who is an original co-sponsor.

01:36:38Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for calling this hearing and for the good collaboration

01:36:41of work on this legislation, which as I hope folks can see, is quite bipartisan, is bicameral.

01:36:47We ought to get it passed.

01:36:50This should not be a partisan fight.

01:36:51This should not be one that we cannot come together to pass.

01:36:55I was very encouraged to hear from my counterpart across the border in Ohio, Mr. Rooley, who

01:37:00represents the people of East Palestine.

01:37:01Of course, I represent the folks in the Pennsylvania side impacted by that derailment.

01:37:06I hope for the American people who have been watching, they understand that the federal

01:37:10representatives who represent those communities, who could be any of our communities, are in

01:37:14the fight for rail safety for as long as it takes.

01:37:17What I have said all along, and I know I'm not alone, is that I refuse to let my constituents

01:37:22be treated like collateral damage in the way of railroad profits.

01:37:25And the common sense measures that we are debating today, I think will go a long way

01:37:29toward making sure that they are never treated that way ever again.

01:37:33The risks in my district are not hypothetical, and they're not hypothetical, I think, for

01:37:36many others.

01:37:38I commissioned a congressional research report on my district.

01:37:42Ninety-five percent of my constituents live within five miles of the tracks.

01:37:46Nearly half live within a mile.

01:37:48This could happen elsewhere in my district.

01:37:50It could happen in plenty of other parts of the country as well.

01:37:54Now, it's been nearly a year and a half since this derailment, and one of the lines that

01:37:58I and others have been told for a long time was that the railroads could take care of

01:38:02this themselves.

01:38:03They would operate more safely.

01:38:04Let's look at the data.

01:38:07According to FRA data earlier this year, in 2023 – now, that's – the derailment

01:38:12happened in the first part of 2023 – we saw derailments increase 13.5 percent.

01:38:18I introduced the Railway Safety Act last March.

01:38:20It's one of those bills, I think maybe the only, that both former President Trump and

01:38:25President Biden have supported.

01:38:26It's got bipartisan support.

01:38:28We're now building from it on this legislation.

01:38:32We've got new momentum, finally, to get legislation passed.

01:38:36Chair Homendy, in the final NTSB report, you recommended establishing regulations on bearing

01:38:41defect detection systems.

01:38:43That's in the Railroad Safety Enhancement Act, is it not?

01:38:46Yes.

01:38:47You recommended improving local preparedness for hazardous materials being transported

01:38:50through communities like mine.

01:38:52That happens when trains are properly designated as high hazard.

01:38:56That's in our legislation, isn't it?

01:38:58Yes.

01:38:59I might have some technical requests on that to further improve it, but great job.

01:39:05And that's the hope for us to have a markup where we can make some of those changes as

01:39:09we do it.

01:39:10Thank you.

01:39:13Mr. Arruca, you discussed, and Mr. Hines as well, industry average time for qualified

01:39:19mechanical inspectors to perform their inspections is not enough time.

01:39:22We need to make sure workers have sufficient time to perform proper safety inspections.

01:39:27That's in our legislation.

01:39:28Mr. Hines, you talked about advocating for two-person crew minimums and what can happen

01:39:34if there were to be one person on those trains.

01:39:37That's in our legislation.

01:39:38My point is, we've got to pass the darn bill.

01:39:42There are provisions in here that will keep folks safer, that will make rail safer, that

01:39:46will give us the ability to not just protect communities, but move things more safely on

01:39:50the rails.

01:39:52My constituents saw a toxic fireball fly over their houses after this derailment, one that

01:39:57shouldn't have happened.

01:39:59My constituents, our neighbors in Ohio, are worried about the health of their families,

01:40:03worried about their drinking water, the air they breathe, the land they grow the crops

01:40:07on, and Congress has yet to pass rail safety legislation.

01:40:11We are finally seeing momentum.

01:40:13I'll ask a very simple question down the line.

01:40:15It's one I asked Secretary Buttigieg when he was here as well.

01:40:19Do you trust the big railroads to regulate themselves?

01:40:21I do not.

01:40:22No.

01:40:23Nope.

01:40:24I'm not sure I'm going to qualify to answer that.

01:40:33Fair enough.

01:40:34Mr. Rucca?

01:40:35Can I use a curse word to say no?

01:40:39No.

01:40:40Absolutely not.

01:40:41I'm not sure I heard the question right because I can't hear because I'm on a railroader.

01:40:46Mr. Hines, do you trust the railroads to regulate themselves?

01:40:49Do I what?

01:40:50Do you trust the railroads to regulate themselves?

01:40:53Absolutely not.

01:40:54We have a 150 year record to look at.

01:40:56I think I agree.

01:40:58With that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.

01:41:01Gentleman yields.

01:41:02I now recognize Mr. Fang for five minutes.

01:41:05Go ahead.

01:41:06Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:41:07I just have a quick question and this is certainly an important hearing as we learn the lessons

01:41:12of what happened with this derailment.

01:41:16To the Federal Rail Administrator, I represent the city of Tehachapi, which is in the mountains

01:41:20of California.

01:41:21In recent years, there have been multiple derailments in the area and I've heard that

01:41:29local authorities in my community have not received notification about these derailments

01:41:33in a timely manner.

01:41:35To improve communication between local authorities and the railroads, what is being done to let

01:41:40the local authorities know about local derailments when they occur and what is the standard

01:41:44practice when derailments do occur and notification?

01:41:50Congressman, in terms of notification on a derailment, the railroad company is responsible

01:41:58for communicating that to the National Response Center and depending on the level of the derailment,

01:42:04FRA dispatches investigators to the site, obviously emergency responders, local folks

01:42:12are alerted to that.

01:42:15As we've talked about, depending on the type of material that is on the train, there is

01:42:21supposed to be advanced notification of the type of material that is on the train so that

01:42:26emergency responders in the area, the state, has an idea of that.

01:42:32So is it dependent on the material?

01:42:34So I do understand that with something that is highly flammable, they are required to

01:42:38notify the state's emergency response commission, but in any other instances, is there like

01:42:45a certain turnaround time they have to do it in or is it just up to the…

01:42:51I can just jump in here because last month we finalized new requirements that if the

01:42:56emergency responders are deployed to respond to a hazardous materials related derailment,

01:43:02then they are required to notify immediately via the 911 call centers and they are also

01:43:11required to update the real-time ask rail electronically and communicate that information

01:43:18to the first responders and they are required to keep paper copies as well so that first

01:43:23responders can access that.

01:43:25If it's non-hazardous materials, is there specific guidelines?

01:43:31I got to defer to others because we only deal with the hazardous materials.

01:43:37It depends on the level of derailment.

01:43:42Can you spell that out?

01:43:45What are the shades of derailment?

01:43:46Well, it depends on the number of cars derailed.

01:43:49Derailments can happen of all types and nature.

01:43:52There can be multiple cars involved, so it depends on the number of cars involved.

01:43:55Again, it depends on the type of material on board.

01:43:58If there's a roadway involved, right, and a grade crossing involved, and then obviously

01:44:05if there are houses nearby and schools and hospitals, so again, it depends on the situation,

01:44:17but if it's a populated area, there should be automatic notification.

01:44:22To improve the notification, the local community should work with the railroad?

01:44:26Yes.

01:44:27Okay, thank you.

01:44:28I yield back.

01:44:29The gentleman yields.

01:44:30I now recognize Mr. Johnson for five minutes.

01:44:39Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ranking Member, for convening this essential hearing,

01:44:48and thank you to the witnesses for your testimony today.

01:44:51The United States is renowned for having one of the most extensive rail networks in the

01:44:56world.

01:44:57However, this distinction comes with an equally immense responsibility to ensure the safety

01:45:03and efficiency of our rail system.

01:45:06Tragically, the recent incident in East Palestine stands as a stark reminder of the devastating

01:45:14consequences of falling short of our obligations.

01:45:19This disaster wreaked havoc on the environment and placed countless lives at grave risk.

01:45:29While we have made some strides to elevate our safety measures through historic investments

01:45:34in the bipartisan infrastructure law, the number of rail incidents in 2023 surpassed

01:45:41those in 2022, showing that the issue is not improving.

01:45:46It's clear that much more work needs to be done to address the vulnerabilities in our

01:45:54railroads.

01:45:55We must take decisive action to guarantee a safe, reliable, and robust freight and passenger

01:46:01rail network for our communities that truly lives up to its extensive reputation.

01:46:10Mr. Arruka, in your testimony, you mentioned that the Transportation Communications Union

01:46:16Brotherhood of Railway Carmen Division represents approximately 10,000 carmen nationwide.

01:46:26These skilled workers conduct thorough inspections to ensure compliance with safety standards,

01:46:33but face time pressures that impact their ability to prioritize safety effectively.

01:46:40Can you please elaborate on some of the most critical safety components that are often

01:46:45neglected due to time pressures?

01:46:48Sure.

01:46:49Thank you, Congressman.

01:46:52One of the problems that you're looking for, the big key components, you know, you're looking

01:46:58at the wheels, broken wheels, thin flanges, so that's the little part of the steel wheel

01:47:03that keeps the train on the track.

01:47:06You're obviously looking, as germane to this hearing, at bearings, which do have a visible,

01:47:13a visual indication when they are failing.

01:47:16There's flung grease all across the trucks and components.

01:47:20You know, you're looking at the actual couplers, pins, all the safety appliances that make

01:47:28sure that Mr. Hines' members can safely operate the train.

01:47:33So when they're out there delivering freight, they don't fall off a ladder or a sill or,

01:47:39you know, it can use a handbrake.

01:47:41So there are a whole number of components that the carmen are trained to inspect, but

01:47:44they don't have enough time to ever actually get to.

01:47:48Most of the time, or most, but some of the times, the railroads are putting our guys

01:47:52on ATVs and having them drive along the side of a train.

01:47:57How much of a detailed inspection does that, you know, provide for?

01:48:01It's just insane.

01:48:03How does the inability to perform full inspections specifically impact the safety and well-being

01:48:11of railroad workers?

01:48:15Well, it's pretty dejecting when you're trained to do something.

01:48:21As our carmen president, Grissom, likes to say, this is the only career that he's ever

01:48:26heard of where they hire you to do a job and then they fire you once you try to do it.

01:48:32It's a very strange thing.

01:48:34But that is detailed throughout a lot of the articles that have been written about the

01:48:39carmen, and that's why I'm here today trying to get Congress to pass this legislation,

01:48:45improve the lives of my carmen so they can keep the trains a little bit safer.

01:48:48Congressman, if I could jump in there, in terms of inspections, qualified mechanical

01:48:54inspections are the gold standard of inspections.

01:48:58There are certain situations where other crafts, Mr. Hines, who's at the table, represents

01:49:03conductors, there are certain crafts that can do inspections, but they should be done

01:49:08on a limited, limited basis in special circumstances.

01:49:13That should not be the norm in terms of inspections.

01:49:16If I could actually follow up on that.

01:49:21We have been referring to as the loophole, the Appendix D loophole, is this part of the

01:49:26regulation, the pre-departure inspection that allows for a conductor to be able to go and

01:49:32inspect a train, inspect a set of cars.

01:49:35But that's designed for when you're out in the network picking up freight.

01:49:40These regs were written, you know, in the 80s, they may be minorly updated here or there,

01:49:46but they were written when there were 33 class 1s, there are now 6.

01:49:51In that era, when you had 33, you were getting inspections by carmen at every single interchange.

01:49:58Now we don't have that many interchanges anymore.

01:50:00So it's a whole different process, it's a whole different operation out there.

01:50:05We've got to improve inspections, and this legislation would do that.

01:50:10Thank you, and I yield back.

01:50:11The gentleman yields.

01:50:12I now recognize Mr. Van Orden, who is also an original sponsor in this legislation.

01:50:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:50:18I would like all the people on the panel who work for the class 1 railroads to stand up,

01:50:23please.

01:50:24Let the record reflect that no one stood up because they didn't bother to show up, even

01:50:28though they were invited to this hearing.

01:50:30BNSF, Uni-Pacific, Canadian National were all invited to this hearing, and they are

01:50:35not here, and that is shameful.

01:50:37That is not okay.

01:50:39I represent a little town called DeSoto, Wisconsin.

01:50:42We had record flooding last April.

01:50:44I called the BNSF railroad on the 21st of April.

01:50:50I said I'm distinctly uncomfortable with the conditions of the tracks due to the scouring

01:50:54that's taking place due to the flooding of the Mississippi River, and the BNSF railroad

01:50:59essentially patted me on the head on the phone and said, don't worry, Mr. Carson, we'll be

01:51:04doing this for 100 years.

01:51:05You'll know what the hell we're doing.

01:51:06Six days later, on the 27th, there were several railcars full of paint and batteries floating

01:51:09down the Mississippi River that almost hit a lock and dam, which would have caused potentially

01:51:13a catastrophic cascading effect that could wipe out hundreds and hundreds of millions

01:51:18of dollars' worth of wetland restoration.

01:51:21Needless to say, we don't have the best relationship at this point.

01:51:26Class 1 railroads have to understand one thing.

01:51:29They are not an entity unto their own, and they have gotten out of control.

01:51:34They are irresponsible.

01:51:35They are not receptive to any type of input that I've seen, and it's got to stop.

01:51:46I'm a retired Navy SEAL senior chief, and what that means is SEALs don't go anywhere

01:51:51without a swim buddy, and for them to tell you dudes that you're going to have one guy

01:51:54on a train, nope, that's a nonstarter.

01:51:58So that is just foolish for them to argue that they're going to have one person on these

01:52:01trains.

01:52:02And I don't have a beef with the union guys.

01:52:03I'm a Republican.

01:52:04You need two people on those trains.

01:52:06That's unacceptable, and it's silly.

01:52:11I want to thank Mr. Bose and Ms. Homendy for being so responsive when that happened.

01:52:18You guys are Johnny on the spot, or Janie on the spot, and I appreciate that greatly.

01:52:22So ma'am, I'm going to ask you, has anyone been fired, reassigned, counseled, or demoted

01:52:30due to the massive and preventable errors that took place in East Palestine?

01:52:39Not that I am aware of, but I might not be aware.

01:52:42Okay.

01:52:43Mr. Bose, you're FRA.

01:52:45I'm not aware of any.

01:52:48Has anyone quit in shame?

01:52:50Anybody?

01:52:51Anybody?

01:52:52I don't think so.

01:52:54All right.

01:52:56Ma'am, you have repeatedly stated that your agency has repeatedly given very specific

01:53:05safety recommendations to the railroads and that they are blowing you off.

01:53:09Is that correct?

01:53:11We currently have 17 open rail safety recommendations to Norfolk Southern alone.

01:53:16We have eight to all class one railroads, and several of them have been open for many

01:53:22years.

01:53:23Overall, we have 215 open rail safety recommendations, many of which have been ignored.

01:53:28Okay.

01:53:29So the railroads, by ignoring your safety recommendations, are putting these men's colleagues

01:53:35at risk, along with the vast majority of my constituents.

01:53:40So my grandkids, four of them, live about three blocks away from the railroad tracks

01:53:44in Piridishim.

01:53:46And I want to be super clear.

01:53:47I love the railroads.

01:53:48And if you don't love the railroads, you don't live in Prairie, because we have trains going

01:53:51through all the time.

01:53:53And the only difference between East Palestine and what took place in DeSoto, which is right

01:53:58up the tracks, is they weren't hauling POL at the time.

01:54:01And so that would have been my grandkids' house, essentially.

01:54:06So I have to, we have to come to a place where these railroads understand that they must

01:54:12be responsive to your agencies.

01:54:14Do you have any type of recourse when they blow you off?

01:54:18We do not.

01:54:19FRA has enforcement authority, however.

01:54:23And what does that mean, sir?

01:54:25Congressman, that means that when we find violations or noncompliance with our regulations,

01:54:32we issue fines and we settle those fines.

01:54:39They have an ability to object.

01:54:42And we reach a settlement.

01:54:44Sir, do me a favor, when this is over, will you get me a list of those fines that you've

01:54:47levied?

01:54:48Yes, sir.

01:54:50When we complete the process, we absolutely will.

01:54:52Thank you.

01:54:53I would love to see that.

01:54:54The settlement, the fines, though, that you issue are settled.

01:54:58They can be settled for pennies on the dollar.

01:55:01Right.

01:55:02So that's kind of what I'm getting at.

01:55:03I want to see the actual numbers that you submitted and what they actually paid, because

01:55:06we're not doing this anymore.

01:55:08The railroads need to be put in check.

01:55:11And that's what we're here to do.

01:55:12Congressman, I want to thank Chairman Nels for his leadership on this bill.

01:55:16Very happy to be an original co-sponsor and also the original for HR 4085, the Rail Inspector

01:55:22Safety Act, which came from a direct recommendation from you, ma'am.

01:55:26So keep up the good work.

01:55:27I appreciate it.

01:55:28I yield back.

01:55:29If I could say one thing to the congressman.

01:55:31It will be up to the chairman, sir.

01:55:33My time has expired.

01:55:34Go ahead, sir.

01:55:35Answer his question if you want.

01:55:36No, I just wanted to say thank you for bringing up the issue repeatedly now on the need for

01:55:42more FRA inspectors out in the field.

01:55:44We need more cops on the beat, and we need them to be more efficient.

01:55:48One of the things I mentioned in my testimony is the laborious nature of writing a violation

01:55:53for one single violation.

01:55:55If you look through the FRA's MP&E study, you'll see, you know, for whatever it was,

01:56:011,400 defects found, 47 violations.

01:56:04Every single one of those defects is technically a violation.

01:56:07It just takes the inspector out of the field and into an office to write a mountain of

01:56:11paperwork and takes them away from where they're needed, out in the field.

01:56:16Why don't we have something that's like, you know, for a police officer, writing a ticket,

01:56:22writing a parking ticket, writing a speeding ticket, to make the entire thing much more

01:56:25efficient and also give some teeth to the cops that need to be out there?

01:56:30Right on.

01:56:31Thank you.

01:56:32Thank you, sir.

01:56:33The gentleman yields.

01:56:34I now recognize Ms. Fauci for five minutes.

01:56:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:56:39Thank you to the panelists here today.

01:56:42We appreciate you being here.

01:56:44The NTSB report found that 25% of the cars on the train that derailed in East Palestine

01:56:52contained defects, even though federal regulations require that a train's brakes must have no

01:56:59defects before it is allowed to depart.

01:57:01Unfortunately, a recent FRA study on freight rail car inspection times found that inspection

01:57:08times averaged a shockingly low 22 seconds per side for each rail car that over 14% of

01:57:16the brakes are defective while the train is operating.

01:57:20Administrator Bose, why are railroads allowed to operate trains that don't meet federal

01:57:26safety standards, and what consequences should railroads face for dispatching trains that

01:57:33don't meet safety standards?

01:57:35Congresswoman, thank you for the question.

01:57:38First of all, railroads are expected to have inspection, testing, and maintenance programs

01:57:44to ensure compliance with FRA regulations.

01:57:47FRA monitors for compliance with federal safety requirements, and we pursue enforcement action

01:57:54when necessary.

01:57:56And so, we do issue civil penalties anytime we find noncompliance.

01:58:04Mr. Aroka, I've been made aware that new digital inspection porters utilizing AI are

01:58:10being tested by a number of railroads and third parties.

01:58:14In your testimony, you acknowledge that this technology has the capacity to improve rail

01:58:20safety and increase the effectiveness of inspections if used properly.

01:58:26Where does your union stand on these technologies, and would they help minimize the risk of accidents

01:58:32like the one that occurred in East Palestine?

01:58:37Thank you, Congresswoman.

01:58:38Yes, as mentioned in my testimony, there are a number of technologies out there that exist

01:58:44that the railroads are either lightly deploying or testing or using improperly, such as these

01:58:53digital inspection portals.

01:58:55These are big camera rings.

01:58:57They have high-speed cameras that capture hundreds, thousands of images per second,

01:59:04and then use machine vision and machine learning to actually try to identify defects.

01:59:11What we would like to see in the industry is that that information be given directly

01:59:17to a carman in the yard as the train is coming in, so that they have, you know, imagine an

01:59:23iPad on your wrist, and you're sitting there saying, I got defects in cars 1, 10, 28, et

01:59:31cetera.

01:59:32Unfortunately, that's not what's happening right now.

01:59:34The camera rings that are deployed are being used to discipline the carman after the fact,

01:59:42so after the train departs.

01:59:44So in essence, what I'm trying to get across is they are simultaneously restricting down

01:59:49the time our carman can actually inspect these cars, and then they're disciplining

01:59:53them on the back end using these fancy tools.

01:59:56Even the companies that, you know, built these things are telling the railroads this is not

02:00:01how it's meant to be deployed.

02:00:04So we'd like to see some improvements there.

02:00:07Contrary to what some folks think, labor unions are not against technology.

02:00:11We just want it to be used correctly.

02:00:15So we want to have access to that defect detector network data, that type of data and imaging,

02:00:23but also the rest of the data that the defect detectors, you know, catch throughout the

02:00:29country.

02:00:30Lastly, I will say the mechanical desks at these railroads are wholly, are very, very

02:00:39short-staffed, with the exception, I think, of the one that you visit, Chair Nels in Homewood,

02:00:44I would say they're doing quite good.

02:00:49Everybody else has one guy looking at the entire network's defect detectors.

02:00:54One guy.

02:00:55Streams of emails coming in saying hot box here, KIPP reader impact there, or looking

02:01:02at this imaging.

02:01:03It's not a realistic concept to expect one individual at any one point to be looking

02:01:10at an entire nation, sorry, or at least an entire network of defect detectors.

02:01:17So as you just touched on, this technology is currently unregulated, and unfortunately

02:01:23disasters like East Palestine are a result of allowing the railroads to self-regulate.

02:01:30There's currently no requirement for where this AI-enhanced technology should be deployed,

02:01:37or how it's used, or who should be interpreting the data.

02:01:43As this technology continues to develop and be implemented, what types of regulations

02:01:48or safeguards should there be put in place to ensure that the railroads are maximizing

02:01:55the effectiveness of this technology and thereby increasing rail safety outcomes?

02:02:02Just a follow-up on what you just gave to us.

02:02:05Oh, thank you.

02:02:07So two things.

02:02:10One of the things that, and with all defect detectors, we don't believe you should be

02:02:13allowed to turn them off when they're inconvenient, first and foremost.

02:02:17Secondly, with regards to these fancy camera portals, we think that the imaging is best

02:02:23placed in the hands of the people that know what to do with it.

02:02:26So the qualified mechanical inspector, which is the regulatory term for a carman, these

02:02:32guys spend their entire lives looking at defects on railcars.

02:02:36If they were able to have this brand-new, amazing AI-driven technology placed directly

02:02:43in their hands, they'd be much more effective, efficient, and they'd make the entire network

02:02:48safer.

02:02:49But we have to have regulations or laws to make that so.

02:02:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:02:55I yield back.

02:02:56The lady yields.

02:02:57I now recognize Mr. Johnson for five minutes.

02:03:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:03:01Palestine, obviously, was a tragedy and in the wake of tragedies, so many of us feel

02:03:08a need to just, we've got to do something.

02:03:11And of course, all decisions have tradeoffs.

02:03:14That's one of the rules of the universe, and all regulations impose costs on consumers.

02:03:18And so rather than just do something, obviously, we want to move forward with prudence and

02:03:22with wisdom.

02:03:23We want to make sure that that, which we do, actually improves life for society.

02:03:31I want to spend a little time thinking about what is the right path forward, Chair Homendy,

02:03:36for you.

02:03:37Thirty-four recommendations on what I think most people think is a pretty good piece of

02:03:41work that you all did.

02:03:42Most of them don't deal with legislative action, of course.

02:03:45Some do.

02:03:47How would you prioritize?

02:03:48Which of the legislative approaches would you most highly prioritize?

02:03:52For legislation?

02:03:53Yes.

02:03:54I would defer that to you all as the legislative body.

02:04:00But there are many recommendations that we have issued over a number of years.

02:04:05One in particular on DOT-111 tank cars, and I would say that there was an accident in

02:04:13Lesterville, South Dakota, involving DOT-111 tank cars in 2015.

02:04:18And here we have recommended doing something about it since 1991, and no action has been

02:04:23taken.

02:04:24So that's one.

02:04:25But we have additional areas we would recommend that action be taken.

02:04:29So specifically among the 34 recommendations, I mean, related to legislative activity, which

02:04:36of those would you most highly prioritize?

02:04:38An aggressive phase-out of the DOT-111 tank cars is in there.

02:04:42An expansion of a phase-out of DOT-111 tank cars in all hazardous materials service.

02:04:51Aggressive recorders, similar to action taken by this committee for the FAA bill for recorders.

02:05:00We would recommend that here since no action has been taken.

02:05:05And there are a number of areas.

02:05:07So what, I mean, a couple of things that were not in the report is limiting train lengths

02:05:12and two-man crews, two-person crews.

02:05:17They were not included.

02:05:18Why?

02:05:19The cause of this derailment was a failed bearing.

02:05:22It was a 9,300-foot train, and it wasn't a factor in the derailment.

02:05:30Just were not directly involved in the tragedy.

02:05:33Correct.

02:05:34Yeah, gotcha.

02:05:35So Administrator Bowes, turning to you, as the Chair just mentioned, overheated bearings

02:05:44that created an axle separation.

02:05:47Have we seen railroads install wayside detectors since this tragedy?

02:05:56They have been installing wayside detectors.

02:06:00Do we have a sense of what kind of pace that installation moves at?

02:06:06In Norfolk Southern's case, it sped up, and they've deployed more of them.

02:06:12In other railroads' cases, it's railroad by railroad.

02:06:16But the technology with detectors and the space between detectors, the distance between

02:06:21detectors is something that the railroad companies are paying attention to.

02:06:25And Congressman, one more part of that, it's not just deploying.

02:06:29It's the training around that, the maintenance, the operation, and then when the information

02:06:34comes in to have it properly resourced at the desk level, and then disseminating that

02:06:40information in a timely manner.

02:06:42And the thresholds, the thresholds are important on what set off alerts.

02:06:48So one of the NTSB recommendations was for the FRA to further investigate bearing defect

02:06:56detection systems.

02:06:58Is it the FRA's intention to do so, and what kind of, where are we at?

02:07:04Congressman, yes, and we are.

02:07:08Any additional detail you could provide?

02:07:11We've been working on that through the Railroad Safety Advisory Committee, a committee that

02:07:16we reinvigorated under this administration, a body where consensus drives the day, and

02:07:24we're hopeful that there can be a productive product that comes out of that.

02:07:30There's a range of detectors, right?

02:07:31We're talking about hot bearing detectors.

02:07:32I think we're trying to get a timeline here.

02:07:35I mean, I understand the body, but I mean, are we looking at three months, six months,

02:07:39ten months?

02:07:41I can't commit to an exact timeframe.

02:07:43We're moving expeditiously on it.

02:07:46Let me tell you something else, Congressman.

02:07:48You're talking about regulations.

02:07:50We've proposed five regulations in recent years.

02:07:54Four of them are in litigation or have petitions for reconsideration.

02:08:00So when you talk about the industry, you talk about timing, you talk about regulations,

02:08:05We need to build in the opposition that we get from the industry when we try to do productive things.

02:08:12Mr. Chair, I yield back.

02:08:16Thank you.

02:08:17I now recognize Mr. Menendez.

02:08:18Five minutes.

02:08:19Thank you, Chairman.

02:08:20Thank you to our witnesses today for their testimonies, which provide an honest and sobering

02:08:24insight into the state of rail safety today in America.

02:08:28The derailment in East Palestine a year and a half ago forced thousands of residents to

02:08:33evacuate.

02:08:34Unfortunately, an event like that can happen at any time, anywhere.

02:08:37I believe that's why so many of our colleagues from across the country care so deeply about

02:08:41how we move forward.

02:08:44Railroads operating high-hazard flammable trains, or HHFTs, are required to inform state

02:08:48emergency response officials of the frequency of HHFTs traveling through their states and

02:08:54develop spill response plans.

02:08:56However, the train that derailed in East Palestine did not fit the definition of an HHFT and instead

02:09:02was classified as a general merchandise train, meaning it was not subject to the same regulations

02:09:07as HHFTs.

02:09:08We know that general merchandise trains sometimes carry hazardous materials of various kinds,

02:09:14and we saw firsthand the kind of damage that they can cause.

02:09:18Chair Homendy, do general merchandise trains that carry hazardous materials pose a risk

02:09:23to people or the environment?

02:09:25Yes.

02:09:27Could expanding the scope of hazardous materials subject to increased safety regulations prevent

02:09:33future tragedies like the one in East Palestine?

02:09:36I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

02:09:38Of course.

02:09:39Could expanding the scope of hazardous materials subject to increased safety regulations prevent

02:09:44future tragedies like the one in East Palestine?

02:09:48Absolutely.

02:09:49How can we ensure that state and local emergency response officials are informed and prepared

02:09:54to handle hazardous materials traveling through their states, even if that train is classified

02:10:01as a general merchandise train?

02:10:03They need to be prepared.

02:10:04They need information on what's going through their communities, which we have recommendations

02:10:08on and PHMSA has done some work on recently, and they need gear.

02:10:14They need radio interoperability, and they need training.

02:10:19And the training, I think, is probably one of the largest gating items because it depends

02:10:23on the community that you're involved in.

02:10:24It's ideally not something that you're dealing with frequently, if ever.

02:10:29So ensuring that as your members move through and retire and you have new members brought

02:10:34on board, they have to have access to that training to ensure that at any given moment

02:10:38they're prepared to handle that situation.

02:10:40That's right.

02:10:41Mr. Iroka, your testimony goes into detail about the FRA's investigation of Class 1 safety

02:10:46inspection practices and how the FRA's findings align with alarms that your members have been

02:10:52sounding for years.

02:10:53In contrast, many Class 1s claim that safety is their number one priority.

02:11:00Let's take them at their word.

02:11:03How can we ensure that if, in fact, safety is their number one priority, that they stay

02:11:09committed to that, despite whether there's a change in administrations, whether time

02:11:14has faded the pain of what happened in East Palestine, which it never should?

02:11:20How can we work together to ensure that we are always creating the safest in-class experience

02:11:27for not just the operators, but the communities that they operate through?

02:11:31Thank you, Congressman.

02:11:35That's a big question.

02:11:39Laws, first and foremost statute, passing this legislation would be a huge step in the

02:11:46right direction.

02:11:47Legislation is going to always be challenged, waived, amended.

02:11:52It's a little bit more cemented in permanence when you pass a law to say this is how it's

02:11:57got to be from now on.

02:12:00First and foremost, I would say pass this bill, the Senate bill or Chair Nell's bill.

02:12:08We have a lot of things that we can do in this industry to improve.

02:12:13In a large sense, the railroads need to be compelled to get there.

02:12:17As most of us mentioned earlier, the railroads don't do things on their own accord.

02:12:24You have to drag them into the future.

02:12:27It's a weird industry practice, but it's long been that way.

02:12:30Whether it's defect detectors, new inspection systems, new technologies that are being tested

02:12:36and we've seen, we see all the time, but somehow aren't really making it into the industry

02:12:41that could make things wildly safer.

02:12:45We need to get there and we need legislation like this to help push the industry in the

02:12:48right direction.

02:12:49Both for the benefit of my members who work them, but also every single community that

02:12:55our trains roll through.

02:12:56Because none of us want to see another East Palestine or a Lakhma Gantik, God forbid.

02:13:03We need to have safety first mindset and right now in the PSR era, it's safety last.

02:13:09Yeah, listen, I agree with you completely.

02:13:12What I know about laws is that they can be made stronger and they can also be made weaker.

02:13:15That's why I think it's important that we commit ourselves to an ideal.

02:13:18An ideal of keeping our community safe, keeping your workers safe, and ensuring that safety

02:13:22is our number one priority.

02:13:24Not after a tragedy, but every single day.

02:13:27Now moving forward.

02:13:28Thank you and I yield back.

02:13:29The gentleman yields.

02:13:30I now recognize Mr. Yacob for five minutes.

02:13:34Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today.

02:13:38Chair Hamedy, I want to say publicly to you what I said privately during your recent briefing

02:13:43to us and simply a thank you for your detailed and thorough investigation on the East Palestine

02:13:50incident.

02:13:51Thank you.

02:13:52I'm glad that we're having this hearing on the East Palestine derailment, but I want

02:13:56to commend the chairman in particular for holding this hearing at the right time.

02:14:01And that is after the investigations have been complete and the reports have been published,

02:14:06rather than beforehand, as many called for.

02:14:09It's better to have all of the facts than to rely on speculation and educated guesses.

02:14:16And now that we do have the facts and the reports in hand, I want to revisit some of

02:14:20the initial assertions.

02:14:23On multiple occasions in the weeks after the derailment, Transportation Secretary Pete

02:14:27Buttigieg connected the derailment to the withdrawal by the previous administration

02:14:31of an electronically controlled pneumatic, or ECP, braking rule, arguing for the rule's

02:14:38return in the wake of the derailment.

02:14:41Chair Hamedy, you tweeted early on in your investigation that withdrawing this rule had

02:14:45no bearing on the East Palestine derailment.

02:14:48Did anything in your investigation change that assessment?

02:14:53What I stated was ECP brakes had no bearing on this investigation, what happened in East

02:15:00Palestine.

02:15:01Thank you.

02:15:02In fact, you went so far as to label Secretary Buttigieg's assertion on the withdrawal of

02:15:06the ECP rule as, quote, misinformation.

02:15:09Yet even after this admonition, Secretary Buttigieg continued to insist that this was

02:15:13a policy change needed to prevent another derailment like what we saw in East Palestine.

02:15:18Chair Hamedy, does it make your job easier or harder when someone in a position of authority,

02:15:22like the Transportation Secretary, presses forward in making an initial snap, maybe political,

02:15:28misleading policy perception, even after being fact-checked, as you did publicly?

02:15:34Well, actually, at the time I was agreeing with him, because he was talking about improving

02:15:39rail safety, and he was talking about ECP brakes, because people brought up that they

02:15:44should, that the DOT should implement the rule on ECP brakes, and they didn't have the

02:15:49regulatory authority, and I was agreeing with him on that.

02:15:52So in your public tweet on February 16th of 2023, you say that some are saying the

02:15:58ECP braking rule, if implemented, would have prevented this derailment.

02:16:03This is false, and here's why.

02:16:05You then went on to say, that leads me to my last point, anyone speculating about what

02:16:09happened, didn't happen, or should have happened, is misleading a suffering community.

02:16:13Please stop misinformation.

02:16:15So are you-

02:16:16I wasn't referring to the Secretary.

02:16:18Okay, very good.

02:16:20And then, can you also talk about, earlier you talked about the need to go to the, or

02:16:26remove the, phase out the DOT-111 tank cars.

02:16:30Do you believe that there is manufacturing capacity to meet an earlier deadline?

02:16:35Should that be accelerated?

02:16:36I am not an expert on the manufacturing capacity, but FRA has looked, and PHMSA have looked

02:16:42at the manufacturing capacity for DOT-111 tank cars, and whether they can be replaced.

02:16:48Is there anyone else that would like to comment on the manufacturing capacity, because I think

02:16:51sometimes what we tend to do in government is we issue these mandates to phase out or

02:16:56phase in certain things, but we don't always look at the manufacturing capacity to make

02:17:00sure that the markets have the ability to comply.

02:17:02Is there anyone that would like to comment on that?

02:17:04If I could weigh in, I think the rail car industry has indicated that there is potential

02:17:14capacity to accelerate the deadline for finishing the phase out of DOT-111 cars for flammable

02:17:22liquids, potentially up to a year earlier, so we think that's the best data that is available

02:17:29right now.

02:17:31Thank you, and Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

02:17:35Thank you.

02:17:36I now recognize Ms. Sykes, who I believe is an original sponsor of this legislation.

02:17:41Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:17:42Yes, I am, and I also want to say thank you to you and Ranking Member Wilson for holding

02:17:47this hearing today and allowing me to join you.

02:17:51As you all know, it's been over a year since the Norfolk Southern train derailment completely

02:17:55upended the East Palestine community, a community that borders my district, and after more than

02:18:01a year of empty excuses and several requests from my offices and pleas from the people

02:18:06of East Palestine, we finally have a hearing on rail safety.

02:18:11However, I am disappointed to see today that the witness table is missing a representative

02:18:16from Norfolk Southern, the entity responsible for bringing us together today.

02:18:21Last month, the National Transportation Safety Board held a hearing to share the findings,

02:18:26probable cause, and policy recommendations from their year-and-a-half-long investigation

02:18:30to the derailment.

02:18:32This investigation confirmed that the probable cause of the derailment was a defective wheel

02:18:36bearing that was overheated.

02:18:38NTSB also provided detailed policy recommendations on how to address rail safety and close regulation

02:18:43gaps, and thank you for that, Chair Homendy.

02:18:46I want to make sure I take a moment to thank you and your team.

02:18:50While I was excited to hear that NTSB was successful in finding the root cause of this

02:18:54disastrous derailment, I was particularly disturbed with the contents of Chairwoman

02:18:59Homendy's closing remarks at the board hearing.

02:19:02Chairwoman Homendy's remarks detail a startling pattern of manipulation and destruction of

02:19:07investigation evidence, dishonesty towards investigators, and disregard for basic investigatory

02:19:12ethics that raise serious questions about the motives behind Norfolk Southern's actions

02:19:17during and after the derailment.

02:19:20Chairwoman Homendy, could you please detail some of the unusual behavior that was exhibited

02:19:24by Norfolk Southern during your investigation, and have you ever witnessed anything like

02:19:29this before on your investigations?

02:19:32We have not.

02:19:33This was unprecedented.

02:19:35Norfolk Southern, while open and transparent in providing us information we requested when

02:19:40we requested it, many times delayed providing our investigators who are here today timely

02:19:48access to that information.

02:19:50I had to call them about issuing subpoenas if we didn't get timely information.

02:19:56They manufactured evidence that had nothing to do with this derailment and tried to include

02:20:03it in the record of our investigation.

02:20:06When our investigator in charge told them no three times, he's here today, they went

02:20:13around our investigator in charge and tried to get our general counsel to approve that,

02:20:18who also denied them.

02:20:20Then they came to five presidential appointees, including me, asking us to overrule our investigator

02:20:26in charge and direct him to include evidence that was actually not evidence from this derailment

02:20:32in our investigation.

02:20:35I could continue on, but it was unprecedented.

02:20:39Alan Shaw apologized and has committed to not have Norfolk Southern do that again because

02:20:48we had 11 open investigations involving Norfolk Southern.

02:20:55Four of those are still open, including a safety culture investigation.

02:21:00We still have to work with them, but his commitment will be taken seriously.

02:21:07If I sense that we go back to what occurred in East Palestine, I'm going to hold them

02:21:12accountable.

02:21:13Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and hopefully this committee will do so as well.

02:21:18It is clear that through your investigation, additional questions have been raised about

02:21:22the actions of Norfolk Southern, and it is imperative that the American people have

02:21:26the opportunity to hear from Alan Shaw, President and CEO of Norfolk Southern, and for him to

02:21:31apologize on behalf of his company to the American people and specifically of the folks

02:21:36of East Palestine.

02:21:37I do hope, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Shaw will be called before the full Transportation and

02:21:42Infrastructure Committee to answer questions regarding the derailment in East Palestine

02:21:46and Norfolk Southern's participation in the NTSB investigation in the future.

02:21:50We do have a letter to request that that has been sent to the Chairman of the full

02:21:56committee.

02:21:57We must additionally assure that rail corporations are fully held accountable for their actions

02:22:03that damage innocent communities and their lives across the political spectrum.

02:22:08We all agree on this from the Biden-Harris administration and previous common sense,

02:22:14rail safety is a priority.

02:22:16In continuing with efforts to honor the will of the people and pass rail safety legislation,

02:22:21I'm glad to partner with Chairman Nels, Reps. Moulton, DeLuzio, and others on the Railroad

02:22:25Safety Enhancement Act, and this will help do many of those things that we've talked

02:22:30about in the Rail Safety Act as well as the Rail Act, but one provision that's not in

02:22:34this act but was in the Rail Act was the requirement of the safety placards on the train cars,

02:22:40which we heard an awful lot about.

02:22:42I know I am short on time, and maybe I will submit this in writing, but Madam Chairwoman,

02:22:47I do want to take any extra seconds they allow me to, to say thank you again to your

02:22:52team for being steadfast, unwilling to waver, and standing up for the people of Northeast

02:22:58Ohio.

02:22:59From the bottom of my heart and on behalf of Ohio's 13th Congressional District, I say

02:23:02thank you.

02:23:03Thank you so much, and thank you for your leadership on safety.

02:23:09The gentlelady yields, and I'll recognize Mr. Molinaro for five minutes.

02:23:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:23:15I want to thank all of you for being here today, and certainly thank the Chair for his

02:23:18leadership on this issue and today's hearing.

02:23:22Obviously, many of us all watched what occurred in East Palestine, thinking, what if it was

02:23:26our communities?

02:23:28Not to diminish, obviously, the impact on those citizens in their communities, but those

02:23:33of us who represent cities, towns, villages with similar rail traffic all stood in horror

02:23:41and with great concern.

02:23:42I represent Binghamton, New York, and was not only concerned but alarmed.

02:23:48Could this happen in our neighborhood?

02:23:50The disaster in East Palestine, as we noted and you all acknowledge, caused by a number

02:23:54of issues.

02:23:55My colleagues have gone through a good number of them today.

02:23:58One that frightened me in the aftermath and still concerns me today is the lack of communication

02:24:03and coordination between layers of government's response and, of course, the company itself.

02:24:10Mr. Hamedy, first, thank you and the NTSB for a tremendous amount of work.

02:24:16I, too, appreciate the Chairman's commitment to getting this information, the report done,

02:24:21the investigation completed, and then moving forward.

02:24:23I want to speak directly to the controlled burn and what NTSB found.

02:24:30Could you speak to the timeline for communication for deciding when the controlled burn should

02:24:36have occurred as briefly as you could?

02:24:40That was a decision not by NTSB.

02:24:43Of course.

02:24:44No, no.

02:24:45No, but in your report.

02:24:46Conversations from our investigation, conversations related to the vent and burn from Norfolk

02:24:52Southern and its contractors and OxyVinyls, the shipper, began around the 4th, February

02:25:024th, February 5th.

02:25:04OxyVinyls was on scene on the 5th, and already on the 5th, Norfolk Southern had begun to

02:25:12bring equipment in planning a vent and burn before incident command or the governor had

02:25:18even signed off.

02:25:19So Norfolk Southern makes the determination that that's the likely outcome.

02:25:25When and who finally made the decision to move forward with the controlled burn?

02:25:32The information was provided to the incident commander, and the incident commander is a

02:25:38fire chief of East Palestine.

02:25:40But you make your decisions based on complete information, and unfortunately Norfolk Southern

02:25:45withheld critical information from both him and the governor that could have led to a

02:25:50safer decision.

02:25:52Having spent 30 years involved with local emergency response as a volunteer fire, a

02:25:58member of my volunteer fire department, and the last 12 years in emergency management,

02:26:02I know that the incident commander makes the decision, but I clearly, it is clear to us

02:26:07that that individual was forced into making a decision absent some information.

02:26:12But do we believe that that individual, I understand that's officially the responsibility,

02:26:18do we believe that individual made that decision or was expected to make that decision?

02:26:25The individual did make the decision, however at the time there was a false sense of urgency

02:26:32that Norfolk Southern and its contractors created.

02:26:36You can see it throughout the documentation, you can see it in news releases that were

02:26:40issued that were just not factually correct based on temperatures that were already falling

02:26:48and stabilizing on those tank cars.

02:26:52Unfortunately they were misled in their decision making and in the end Norfolk Southern gave

02:26:59the incident commander and the governor 13 minutes to make that final decision.

02:27:06The incident commander had asked to go through the information over and over again and finally

02:27:11had to make the decision, but it was based on inaccurate, incomplete information.

02:27:17Well going back to the founding of this nation, emergency response is supposed to be led by

02:27:21emergency responders and no one else.

02:27:23In your report you further speak to the lack of information and resource sharing at the

02:27:31emergency response level, whether or not those first responders have the adequate information

02:27:37to immediately respond to the incident to begin with and then information available

02:27:42to them to make choices on the ground.

02:27:44Can you touch on NTSB's recommendations for ensuring first responders have greater access

02:27:49to and are prepared to respond to incidents of this nature?

02:27:53Yes, we've issued recommendations for a number of years regarding real train consist information

02:28:02for emergency responders, which the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration

02:28:08already issued a final rule on, but in addition to that we saw a need to highlight in our

02:28:15recommendations training, especially for volunteer firefighters and radio interoperability,

02:28:22which was a big issue for responders.

02:28:24Thank you, Chair.

02:28:25Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:28:26I know I'm over time.

02:28:27I just want to say since 9-11-2001 we have talked about interoperability and shared communication

02:28:34and we have failed significantly even since and it's a problem that really hamstrings

02:28:40emergency response.

02:28:41God bless and thank you.

02:28:42The gentleman yields and I'll recognize Ms. Titus for five minutes.

02:28:45Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:28:47Thank you for letting me sit in on this committee.

02:28:50Across the country we've seen trains just grow in length.

02:28:54It's amazing to me now Class I railroads are running trains that can be up to four miles

02:28:59long.

02:29:00Mr. Hines, I wonder if you would comment on are those trains less safe and does SMART

02:29:06113 support the federal government having a larger role to play in the regulation of

02:29:11these trains, especially those that are carrying hazardous waste or hazardous material?

02:29:17Well, I think anybody who's been blocked by a train can say that a four-mile-long train

02:29:24is a problem for obvious reasons.

02:29:27They cut cities in half, especially rural communities.

02:29:31One of these trains stopped in that city, that town is cut in half.

02:29:37Emergency vehicles, you're having a heart attack, need to get to the hospital, it's

02:29:39on the other side of the train.

02:29:41Oh well.

02:29:42So as far as just how obvious it is that it's a bad idea, it creates so much more force

02:29:53because the trains are so much heavier and they're longer and the railroads think that

02:30:00if they put some distributive power in the middle of the train that we're good to go.

02:30:07What they don't report on and what's not collected is how often these knuckles break, the knuckles

02:30:13that hold the cars together, and the drawbars get pulled out, and this happens regularly.

02:30:22Another thing that would require to have two people to change a knuckle, you have to have

02:30:27an engineer, you have to have a conductor, a lot of this stuff.

02:30:30But it's just so strange to me that they just want bigger and bigger.

02:30:35Instead of running two trains, they're combining them into one train, just by connecting them,

02:30:41or even three trains, or more.

02:30:47And the derailment numbers don't go down.

02:30:50Even though they're running fewer trains, they're longer trains, and the derailment

02:30:55numbers don't go down.

02:30:57So I mean, it's not a good idea for so many reasons.

02:31:01I don't want to burn up all your time, but.

02:31:05May I add, we investigated a terrible tragedy involving two UP trains, a standing train

02:31:12and a moving train, in Granite Canyon, Wyoming, in 2018, and found the length of the train

02:31:18was an issue.

02:31:19It lost braking capabilities, emergency braking capabilities, as it crested a hill and went

02:31:26down and descended 13 miles.

02:31:30It was increasing in speed, all the while the train crews were trying to get braking

02:31:35back and put on the emergency braking.

02:31:38In the end, the train hit 55 miles an hour and slammed right into a UP standing train,

02:31:46and the locomotive engineer and conductor both died.

02:31:49And we found in that that one of our findings was the length of that train was a factor,

02:31:55and it was 103 cars.

02:31:57Congresswoman, as you know, there's no federal regulation that restricts train lengths.

02:32:03At FRA, under my watch, we made sure to collect data about train length so that the process

02:32:10is more transparent and we have data available to take action on that.

02:32:14Now, having said that, we're not waiting for the data to come in.

02:32:17We issued a safety advisory on train length.

02:32:21We've also issued a safety advisory on the makeup of trains, because that also factors

02:32:27into this.

02:32:28So we are taking the action that we can under the authorities that we have to address this

02:32:33situation, but communities are experiencing this, and we're not sitting idly by.

02:32:40Okay.

02:32:41But you wouldn't oppose federal regulation or legislation to help you in that effort?

02:32:46Based on data that we're gathering right now, it's something we should definitely take a

02:32:52look at.

02:32:53Yeah, I think so.

02:32:54As you said, it was so obvious that you don't need the data and the explanation, but it's

02:33:00there to support that conclusion.

02:33:03Well, speaking of regulation, I know that the FRA finalized an important rule that's

02:33:09been mentioned before about the two-man crew.

02:33:12I think these things kind of go together, and I've been pushing for a two-man crew for

02:33:18several years now, and I know that a rule was finished, and it's somewhere in limbo

02:33:23out there.

02:33:25And I know in legislation, we want to see a two-man crew.

02:33:27It's a bipartisan issue.

02:33:29Administrator, would you comment on that, where that stands?

02:33:34Yeah.

02:33:35Congresswoman, thank you for asking that question.

02:33:36I'm proud to be the administrator that got a final rule done on minimum crew size.

02:33:43It's a significant step forward for safety in the railroad industry.

02:33:47As you know, without that rule, railroads could go to one person or below without that

02:33:54rule in place.

02:33:55So it's an important step forward.

02:33:58I also know we've been talking about East Palestine.

02:34:01I'm confident in saying the community, the people who represent East Palestine, are much

02:34:06better knowing that there's more than one person, or there was more than one person

02:34:11on that crew.

02:34:12Thank you.

02:34:13Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:34:14If the gentlelady yields, I now recognize Mr. D'Esposito, our original sponsor of the

02:34:19legislation.

02:34:20Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:34:23Mr. Arruga, throughout your testimony, you mentioned that carmen are under intense pressure

02:34:29to perform inspections quickly, often having to choose which components to inspect due

02:34:34to time constraints.

02:34:36With up to 15% of rail cars found to contain an FRA defect, how does limiting inspection

02:34:43time affect safety of the rail system as a whole?

02:34:46Well, I would say, well, thank you for the question, Congressman.

02:34:51I would say much of what I've talked about today, which is that you can't put a time

02:34:58constraint on safety.

02:35:00If you do that, people are going to miss things, no matter who's actually inspecting the cars.

02:35:08But it's also important to make sure that the right person is inspecting the cars.

02:35:11As I, I'm not sure if you were here earlier, but we, I printed off this, this is, these

02:35:17are the regulations that the carmen are held to, or the standards that the carmen are held

02:35:21to.

02:35:22And these are the other crews.

02:35:25It's night and day, the amount they have to inspect to, the level, the regulatory standard.

02:35:31If you harass anybody to inspect too fast, they're going to miss things.

02:35:34Right.

02:35:35So, it's kind of obvious.

02:35:36And now, if I missed it, I apologize, but can you discuss or share with us any specific

02:35:42instances where inadequate inspection time has possibly led to an accident or a near

02:35:48miss?

02:35:51That would be hard for me to disclose because of the confidential nature of those things

02:35:55for my members.

02:35:57But I assure you, I have plenty of stories, but I wouldn't want to really talk about them.

02:36:03Now, can you describe what the effect of limiting the inspection time has on the workers

02:36:10and the morale?

02:36:11It's incredibly depressing.

02:36:14As I mentioned earlier, you know, imagine being hired to do a job and then being told

02:36:18not to do it.

02:36:20It's very insulting.

02:36:21You know, you train all your life for this thing.

02:36:25You spend three years, 732 working days to go from an apprentice carmen to a journeyman.

02:36:31And then when you get there, they say, if you find defects, we're going to discipline

02:36:35you.

02:36:38No more defects.

02:36:39No more defects.

02:36:40You know, you get a target on your back, and it's not necessarily, you know, for finding

02:36:43a defect that they're going to discipline you.

02:36:45It's for everything else.

02:36:46Your shoe's untied.

02:36:47I mean, I've heard of guys getting written up or changing their hat over to a safety

02:36:56helmet.

02:36:57I mean, wiping their safety glasses.

02:37:01It's really just petty stuff.

02:37:03But that's what happens when you get a target on your back, when you don't fall in line.

02:37:08And now you also mentioned in your testimony that FRA conducted a study that found that

02:37:13when inspectors were present, carmen averaged one minute and 44 seconds per car inspection.

02:37:20However, when inspectors were not present, carmen were only given about 44 seconds per

02:37:29car to inspect.

02:37:31What measures do you think could be implemented to ensure consistent safety practices?

02:37:34Well, you could pass this law that would make it illegal to prohibit or to enforce any kind

02:37:42of time constraint upon the carmen.

02:37:45As I've said before, you can't put a time constraint on safety.

02:37:49But I will also note, in the FRA study, there were remarks from specific FRA inspectors

02:37:57in there where they talked about, you know, how one, I want, you know, this FRA inspector

02:38:04walked behind a carmen doing his job.

02:38:06They found a whole bunch of defects, you know, 10, 17, whatever, combined between the two

02:38:12of them in one train.

02:38:14And then he looks at the FRA inspector, pulls up the records of that railroad.

02:38:19In the previous 24 hours, they'd only found three the whole day.

02:38:24It's just not realistic.

02:38:26It's not the truth.

02:38:27So something's going on.

02:38:30And I really, you know, this kind of type of legislation has been a long time coming.

02:38:34Congressman, if I could just step in as the FRA administrator, when Mr. Aruk is talking

02:38:40about what the railroad, from his information, did, that's absolutely unacceptable.

02:38:47Any time FRA sees that a railroad is gaming the system, is gaming the inspection process

02:38:54that we have, the oversight that we have, we're going to take action on that.

02:38:58There was a railroad that found out about our safety culture assessment and the questions

02:39:02that we were going to ask in that assessment.

02:39:04As soon as we found out, we withdrew that safety culture assessment of that railroad

02:39:10and made it clear that's unacceptable.

02:39:11My time's expired, Mr. Chairman.

02:39:13I yield back.

02:39:14Thank you.

02:39:15The gentleman yields.

02:39:16Are there any further questions from any members of the subcommittee that have not been recognized?

02:39:22Seeing none, I'll call the meeting to order.

02:39:23Thank you.

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