'Enabling Repression From Ecuador To Kenya To Pakistan': Schatz Warns Of PRC Facial Recognition AI

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Prior to the Congressional recess, during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing, Sen. Brian Schatz (D-HI) questioned Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell about surveillance technology, and Chinese facial recognition AI.

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Transcript

00:00Thank you, Chairman.

00:02Thank you for being here.

00:03I appreciate it.

00:04I want to talk to you about surveillance and the Internet of Things.

00:10As you know, the PRC is exporting facial recognition, AI technology, enabling repression from Ecuador

00:19to Kenya to Pakistan.

00:20This has huge implications.

00:21And I think this is one of the spaces where they are quietly building partnerships for

00:27surveillance and controlling the domestic political situation.

00:33And it's not obvious to me what the tools are in our toolkit to provide an alternative.

00:38It's not like we're going to say, hey, use our company for AI and surveillance and repression.

00:44But this is an area of expansion, both economic and political, for the PRC.

00:49And I'm wondering how you see it and what we should be doing about it.

00:53So for a while, Senator Strzok, first of all, thank you.

00:57I appreciate the question.

00:59There was a big debate, does China have a model of development or a model of governance

01:07that they are promoting that's comparable to their own?

01:13And lots of debates about that for years.

01:16But now it becomes clear that there are certain ingredients to authoritarian leadership that

01:23they are promoting in a variety of the countries.

01:26You mentioned several, but I'd add others, the Solomons, frankly, elements in Afghanistan.

01:32And as part of that is that they often support a vulnerable elite who is in power.

01:39They provide assistance to that leading group and the people around it.

01:44They provide Praetorian support that allow them through police and others to be protected

01:53from domestic threats.

01:55And they provide technological capacities for...

02:00So the bad news is that's a pretty good value proposition.

02:04So what do we do about it?

02:06And I'll get it.

02:07The value proposition is that we have to be purposeful about recognizing how challenging

02:14it is to make the argument about white democratic institutions, elections, free and fair elections,

02:23and support to governments that emerge through that process.

02:27A lot of times, I'll give you a classic example.

02:31We have a new leader in Senegal, right?

02:35Extremely hopeful.

02:36But he's raised expectations.

02:38And now we're going to have to see whether we can help meet them as he goes against both

02:44forces in his own countries and others that would seek to advance this authoritarian model.

02:52And so, look, I can't tell you, Senator, that there's a perfect answer to every situation.

03:00But I will tell you, I've been to many of these countries, and that model is often domestically

03:06extremely unpopular.

03:09And if we are able to work with key groups in various countries, we can put up an effective

03:17challenge.

03:18I think it's two things.

03:19First of all, you're right.

03:20It's unpopular.

03:21But a lot of times, it's a trap.

03:23And it takes some amount of time for the leader to figure out that it's a trap, that they

03:28are going to be under the thumb of a country overseas.

03:32And then they come back to us and are a little bit more willing to dialogue.

03:35Can I just, two things on that.

03:37That is exactly right.

03:38And I'll give you an example.

03:41When China negotiates these foreign basing, and they often initially describe them as

03:47just, oh, it's just a little, you know, kind of a little dock here.

03:52Before long, local authorities of host nations are unable to get on these bases.

03:57They're not able to actually control their own territory.

04:03That's number one.

04:04Number two, yes, the built and rolled has been substantial.

04:08But many of the processes that the Chinese used in terms of financing in particular,

04:14the bill is coming due in many of these countries.

04:17These were not gifts.

04:19And some of the concessional loans are substantial.

04:23And they have real interest payments.

04:24And the Chinese are not interested in renegotiating.

04:28We can use some of those to our advantage.

04:30So on Belt and Road, just a quick final question.

04:33It seems to me, I mean, look, we as a country started to be alert to Belt and Road.

04:40And I think it precipitated a lot of smart foreign policy actions.

04:45On the other hand, there's part of me that thinks that what China did was two things,

04:49right?

04:50Debt trap diplomacy and what you're talking about, but also just simply over promising.

04:55And I think we've got to get in the habit of talking about not Belt and Road as if it

04:59is some insurmountable perfect strategy, but a little bit of an overextension of political,

05:05like an overreach here that we can take advantage of.

05:08I agree with that.

05:10Senator Shaheen.

'Enabling Repression From Ecuador To Kenya To Pakistan': Schatz Warns Of PRC Facial Recognition AI

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