'The Place Where You Work Doesn't Seem To Get This': Risch Pans Deputy State Sec. Over Ukraine

4 months ago

Prior to the Congressional recess, during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing, Sen. James Risch (R-ID) questioned Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell about China's role in Ukraine peace negotiations and efforts, as well as resistance to sanctions.

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Transcript

00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks so much for being here, and I always appreciate your

00:05understanding of these issues and frankness. At your confirmation hearing, we talked about the

00:11situation of inviting China into the peace process for Ukraine, and you expressed your

00:20agreement with me that this wasn't a good idea, which is an understatement. In the meantime,

00:25the State Department officials have told this committee that China must be at the table.

00:29I'm assuming, like a lot of things, there isn't complete agreement, but help me understand this.

00:35Where are we on this, and how hard are we going to have to push to get this done right? It seems

00:40that our European partners get this, and for whatever reason,

00:44the place where you work doesn't seem to get this, so help me out.

00:50Thank you, Senator. To be honest, I'm not aware of those consultations that you have had. I will

00:56tell you that I would generally say any kind of discussion like that is premature. The dominant

01:04arena of engagement is on the battlefield. I see no sign of Russians in any way easing up

01:12on their brutal offensives with Ukraine. If you signal too early your interest in

01:18getting to the negotiating table, I think it sends the wrong message,

01:23and it's a signal of weakness more generally. Ultimately, I had extensive discussions with

01:29your team about this. Senator, I must say I found those arguments quite persuasive.

01:37I am personally troubled by China's actions publicly stating that we're in favor of peace,

01:45we're not taking sides, but then privately providing the support for their industrial

01:52base in ways that will change the balance of military power, not just in Ukraine, Senator,

01:57but in Europe for decades to come. So I find those quite troubling. I think they have to be

02:03accounted for more directly. I believe the United States, with its key partners in Europe, have to

02:09play the dominant role if we find ourselves in a situation, which we hope for, that we can arrive

02:16at a just peace with Ukraine and Russia. We are nowhere near that right now, Senator, and so

02:23talk about what the nature of the table looks like and who's sitting around it. That's premature.

02:31Great thoughts. It seems to me that the Europeans and the rest of the world made a huge mistake

02:39with Russia over recent decades, thinking they were something that they weren't. And now the

02:44price is being paid for that. And I think the problem is there's some people making the same

02:50mistake right now with China, thinking that there's something that they're not. And your

02:55observation that that mistake could carry consequences that goes into generations,

03:00I agree with 100%. I think Europeans, because of their experience with Russia, are very,

03:07very reluctant to make the same mistake with China. And I think China hasn't helped either.

03:12You know, Europe's experience with the Lithuanians with China has really, really

03:18woken up the Europeans as to what they're dealing with as far as China is concerned.

03:23Look, Congress recently passed legislation on a bipartisan basis to sanction China for the

03:29oil purchases. And I'm not seeing, there was a lot of enthusiasm up here in the Hill for that.

03:35I'm not seeing the same enthusiasm for the administration, which isn't surprising because

03:40whenever we talk about sanctions, Treasury always pushes back to a degree, state always pushes back.

03:46We up here seem to be a little more ready to draw that weapon and use it. Your thoughts?

03:54Look, Senator, we've engaged on this quite a bit. I really understand and take your points to heart.

04:00I would point out, and I think you know it, you've heard it so many times of the

04:04hundreds of other sanctions that we have undertaken more directly.

04:10I do think, and I will just state clearly, that Iran is an implacable foe of the United States.

04:16We have to contest them everywhere, not just in the Middle East, not just with respect to the

04:24Houthis, but increasingly the role that they are also playing on the battlefields of Europe

04:30and Ukraine. So I take that very seriously. I understand the points. Sanctions policy,

04:37as you underscore, Senator, and you understand, are complex. There are often concerns about

04:43certain steps that you might take in a financial arena could have secondary, tertiary effects.

04:50I don't mean that as an excuse, but these are complex matters. I do think we have taken

04:56consequential steps, but I need to take back to the building a specific set of recommendations

05:02that you carry. I do also want to just point to something that you raised at the outset.

05:08You know, Europe has had two major challenges. One is the Russia energy and national security

05:16challenge. Many of these countries had hoped for a deeper economic and commercial relationship

05:21with China. I will tell you after substantial discussions, both in my previous job,

05:27Senator, and this job, Europeans understand the risks. They are coming around. We're working

05:33much more consequentially with them, not just on Russia, but China as well.

'The Place Where You Work Doesn't Seem To Get This': Risch Pans Deputy State Sec. Over Ukraine

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