Guest Booker #01 Kevin Sullivan

Samuel Fly

It’s January of 1984 and the entire WWE has hinged its future on one man. And now he has changed his mind. Hogan has called and he’s not coming. What now?  Join Kevin Sullivan in this remarkable DVD as he sits down in our mock booking office and proceeds to rewrite the year 1984 in the WWE. The task we’ve given him…make 1984 the breakout year it was for the WWE, but without Hogan. Watch as Sullivan books scenario after scenario in the wrestling organization that he has never actually booked for!  Kevin Sullivan is a former booker/wrestler and he now brings his experience and vast knowledge to our booking session in the first edition of Guest Booker!  Hop in our time machine and watch as Sullivan books twelve months of pro wrestling before your eyes. A must-see for the smart fan!  00:00 WWE's 1984 Conundrum: No Hulk Hogan 00:37 Guest Booker: Kevin Sullivan's Task 01:29 Evaluating the WWE Roster 02:03 Strategic Cuts and Key Retentions 04:43 Bringing in New Talent 11:03 Building the 1984 WWE Card 20:17 Booking the Main Event and Beyond 44:01 Intercontinental Title Plans 48:47 Return of the Superstar 49:36 Personal Issues and Drug Problems 51:19 Billy Graham's Wrestling Career 52:14 Booking Matches and Opponents 53:36 The Role of Physique in Wrestling 01:02:11 Tag Team Strategies and Freebirds 01:12:03 National Expansion and Title Switches 01:18:32 Television and House Shows 01:29:49 Building Angles and Sustaining Heat 01:39:00 Final Card for December Show

Transcript

00:00:00The year is 1984 and the WWE is poised for a national expansion, the likes of which would

00:00:20change the scope of professional wrestling forever.

00:00:24Only now, the man they hired to hang much of that responsibility on isn't coming.

00:00:30Hulk Hogan will not be a part of the WWE in this crucial period.

00:00:34Can the WWE still achieve its height?

00:00:38This is the conundrum we propose to our guest booker, Kevin Sullivan.

00:00:42This series, Guest Booker, will test the skills of Booker's past with hypothetical scenarios

00:00:48as we watch them re-book actual eras in pro wrestling.

00:00:52So let's get started, join Kevin Sullivan and myself in 1984 in New York as kayfabecommentaries.com

00:00:59presents the inaugural edition of Guest Booker.

00:01:15January 1984, here we are, we've got the landscape of the entire world of wrestling in front

00:01:20of us, that's the WWE.

00:01:23We have Florida, Mid-South, AWA, Fritz, Crockets, and Don Owen up in Portland.

00:01:29So the first thing we should do is we should take a look at the roster as it stands in

00:01:34the WWE and see who we want to keep, who we want to get rid of.

00:01:39Of course, for those out there, you have to understand that a booker's job, you need someone

00:01:45to carry the mail.

00:01:46So you need people to work the middle of the card, you need people up top, and you're going

00:01:49to need people on the bottom, so it isn't going to be superstars all the way through.

00:01:55So what are you thinking, who's on the way out for us here in January?

00:02:00For the WWE, Chief J. Strombo and Ivan Putski.

00:02:07I like both of them personally, but the time has come.

00:02:13And this is just business.

00:02:18You've had instances, I'm sure, where you've had to make some friends pretty unhappy with

00:02:23you, and you're able to just kind of separate.

00:02:26Well, you have to if you want to be successful, you know what I mean?

00:02:31It is down to business.

00:02:34And these guys made a great living, they were on top, but the time has come that you want

00:02:40to, and you're starting a new company nationwide.

00:02:47So you want to give it that new sparkle, that's my belief, anyway.

00:02:56I also would look down and see, sometimes you keep a guy because he's good for the dressing

00:03:03room, and sometimes you let a guy go because he's bad for the dressing room.

00:03:08Well, I like David Schultz personally, but you know what's going to happen.

00:03:13So, he'd have to go.

00:03:21Tiger Chung Lee would have to go.

00:03:30So who on that list do you think would be a good veteran to leave around, if for nothing

00:03:35else but to kind of be, to function as the elder statesman in the dressing room and for

00:03:41the younger guys?

00:03:42Well, you know, at this time, again, you have Lou Albano, so Lou had just come off the TV

00:03:51too with Cindy, or was just getting ready to, you know what I mean?

00:03:54Right, they were just getting ready to do that.

00:03:56He had that in the works, and Lou's good for the dressing room.

00:04:02Tito carries himself excellent.

00:04:06Paul Orndorff is a leader in the dressing room.

00:04:10The masked superstar.

00:04:12Fuji's great to have in the dressing room, keeps it alive.

00:04:15Murdock was great.

00:04:17So I would keep almost everybody else here.

00:04:20Who are your policemen there?

00:04:22Who are your cops?

00:04:24When you say policemen?

00:04:25Yeah, keep order.

00:04:26If anyone comes in and gets a little, wants to get a little, go into business for themselves,

00:04:33wasn't there somebody usually who would kind of keep order in the dressing room as far

00:04:37as that should be?

00:04:38No.

00:04:39I never saw that.

00:04:40Okay.

00:04:41All right.

00:04:42So that's our roster there.

00:04:43Okay.

00:04:44Now, let's bring some people in from around the country.

00:04:45Yeah.

00:04:46Now, I mean, you know, again, this is when we first started, and we're talking about

00:04:53Barry Wyndham.

00:04:54Barry Wyndham, at that time, was the best baby face in the country, so Barry Wyndham

00:04:59would come in.

00:05:00And this is Florida we're looking at here.

00:05:05Yeah.

00:05:06And you'd have to bring Dusty in as Dusty, not the polka dots.

00:05:15Because at that time, Dusty had been selling out the gardens, and Backman was headlining

00:05:22them.

00:05:23Dusty and Superstar were selling them out in strap matches and death matches and regular

00:05:28matches.

00:05:29Now, you, in real life, were in Florida at the time, A4?

00:05:34Yeah.

00:05:36Would Dusty have come?

00:05:37Would Dusty have left Florida and gone to Vince?

00:05:42Probably not, because he was running it.

00:05:45Probably not.

00:05:46But, I mean, if I was going to take somebody, I would have taken him.

00:05:57And Mulligan would go.

00:05:58One of the greatest talkers of all times.

00:05:59And you'd have to take Rotunda, because Rotunda can wrestle and can fill a great spot on the

00:06:14card.

00:06:15Would you have put him with Barry?

00:06:16No.

00:06:17Like Vince did?

00:06:18No.

00:06:19No.

00:06:20Keep them separate?

00:06:21No.

00:06:22Okay, so we go to the Mid-South.

00:06:29I would have taken Dr. Death, Steve Williams.

00:06:34I would have taken Duggan, Butch Reed, Junkyard Dog, I guess I'm on the list, Chavo, Guerrero,

00:06:54because of the Hispanic market.

00:06:56Right.

00:06:57That's true.

00:06:58I always knew there was a big Hispanic market.

00:07:01I was the first guy in to bring the Luchados, and I was the first guy to bring the Mexicans

00:07:05in.

00:07:06Especially New York, too.

00:07:07It isn't just New York.

00:07:08No, I know what you're saying.

00:07:09Especially in this case, that would have been huge.

00:07:10Yeah.

00:07:11Denver.

00:07:12That's true, too.

00:07:13Denver, yeah.

00:07:14Denver, Chicago.

00:07:15Yeah, all your big cities.

00:07:16All your major cities.

00:07:17And I would have brought Duggan in, too.

00:07:18I would have brought Duggan.

00:07:20Yeah, Vern.

00:07:26Who is he losing?

00:07:37He would have lost Laine and Kern.

00:07:41Those are the fabulous ones.

00:07:47Randy Savage, Mr. Saito, Superstar Graham, Rick Rude, Bobby Heenan.

00:08:15Howard Crockett, Steve Youngblood, Ivan Koloff because of the name of who he was, Gary Hart

00:08:37as a manager, Orton Jr. Slater as a team, that was one of the best tag teams of all

00:08:49times, Ernie Ladd, I bring Ernie in, and this would be Ernie's last run but I would get

00:08:58something out of Ernie, I get a lot of knowledge, a leader in the dressing room, a smart guy

00:09:06and they never really capitalized on his football career in New York, they should've, they should've.

00:09:20W's, Fritz, well you have to take Carey, you have to take David, you have to take Jimmy

00:09:32Garvin, Terry Gordy, Michael Hayes, the missing link, and in Portland, Carter Henning, Siva

00:10:01Arthur, and I'll tell you why, I've looked down this list over here, Vince doesn't have

00:10:13a Samoan, there's more Samoans in San Francisco than there are in Samoa, there's more Samoans

00:10:20in Honolulu than there are in Samoa, Portland has a huge Samoan population, Vancouver has

00:10:27a huge Samoan, he'd be good for the Pacific Rim and the West Coast.

00:10:32Would you put him with Offa and Sika, who worked in there at the time?

00:10:36No, no, because I'd make him a babyface, and Buddy Rose, alright so that's what we look

00:10:49like now.

00:11:03Alright so we're going to do 12 months now with the heavyweight title, without Hogan

00:11:07we have the title on The Sheik, and as the booker and the man with Vince's ear, what

00:11:15are we going to do?

00:11:18The best, one of the best heels I ever saw in my life was Paul Orndorff, and one of the

00:11:26best babyfaces of all time was Ricky Steamboat, so you have Steamboat beat The Sheik.

00:11:35Quick right away, January, like they did it with Hogan, or is it not going to be a transitional

00:11:40thing like they had intended The Sheik to be, what would you do with that?

00:11:44See again, this is 84, it's cut and dry, there's babyfaces and heels, there's no Tweeners

00:11:56and there's no Steve Austin, there's babyfaces, so it's really babyface and heel.

00:12:04This territory was designed by Vince's father to be a babyface territory.

00:12:12So going nationwide, I always thought people paid to see the heel get beat, not the babyface

00:12:25to lose.

00:12:26So if you have a babyface, but Paul Hogan proved that theory wrong, but Hogan came along

00:12:34when the stars were lined up perfectly, everything worked perfect, so we're going to go back

00:12:39to what worked traditionally.

00:12:43So I would take the belt off of The Sheik, we'll say he would keep it January, but I

00:12:54would really push Steamboat, and then I'd put the belt on him in February.

00:13:01So we saw Steamboat push on TV in January.

00:13:08Is there any logic to any point in the calendar year doing certain things with titles?

00:13:14Do things work better in the winter than they do in the summer because of school or whatever?

00:13:18Right.

00:13:19Your two worst months are May and September.

00:13:23Kids are getting out of school in May and they're going back to school in September.

00:13:27And again, this is 84, hardcore audience, kids.

00:13:33So we're going to lose those two months, basically, to the kids except the big shows.

00:13:39So we get the change in before May.

00:13:41We get the change in before May.

00:13:46I would go March.

00:13:50Okay, so the push and then the change.

00:14:02And at that same time when you're pushing Steamboat, you're pushing Wanda from the other

00:14:06side as a heel.

00:14:17Where do they collide?

00:14:18Is it an angle that starts it?

00:14:20How do you get the most out of your money for that?

00:14:22Well, are we going to go for the pay-per-view?

00:14:24No, nothing yet.

00:14:25Nothing yet.

00:14:2685.

00:14:27So we're not going for the pay-per-view?

00:14:28No.

00:14:29You could do a big, what they would do is the big stadium shows, like they had the Shea

00:14:36Stadium shows and stuff.

00:14:38So if you wanted to build up to a big pay-off, you know, a big gate, you know, try to get

00:14:4250,000 people in a stadium or something, that would work.

00:14:49I would let Steamboat keep that belt and I'd start now also aligning Barry as a babyface

00:15:06and getting Barry over.

00:15:10So Barry has somebody to work with and Barry and Orndorff would steal the shows.

00:15:18Work against each other?

00:15:19Yeah.

00:15:20So they would start stealing the shows.

00:15:21So now you have Orndorff and Barry working.

00:15:29You have Steamboat as your champion.

00:15:34Would you feed him anyone to kind of, in the interim, while you're building up Orndorff

00:15:39on the one side, who are you feeding Steamboat to reinforce his...

00:15:44The thing about Steamboat is he could have a match with a broomstick.

00:15:51The guy here that he would have an incredible match with would be Morocco.

00:15:58So you'd have Morocco and Steamboat.

00:16:05So already if I'm looking at going to house shows, I got Steamboat and Morocco and Orndorff

00:16:16and Wyndham, four great workers, four great looking athletes.

00:16:23So now I'm starting to sell to the kids the superheroes.

00:16:31So now I would go down and open the card.

00:16:36If I'm building a card, we're going to build a card.

00:16:41My belief was the first match was almost as important as the last because that sets the

00:16:46tone for the night.

00:16:48If the match is the shits, it's hard to follow.

00:16:53When I worked, I always wanted the guy in front of me to steal the show because the

00:16:59stealing would be a lot.

00:17:01Get the blood flowing in the fans.

00:17:02Yeah.

00:17:03And if the match starts, the first match starts.

00:17:08And this is what's funny.

00:17:09The guidance...

00:17:10Did you go to the guidance?

00:17:11Yeah, sure.

00:17:12Okay.

00:17:13Traditionally, the people didn't show up until third match.

00:17:16Right.

00:17:17Well, I would have put something on the first match.

00:17:18They said, shit, we should have been here.

00:17:20You missed it, yeah.

00:17:21I missed it.

00:17:23Because I believe you lost some of the audience because by that time, if you're going to go

00:17:31and you figure, well, we're going to go and catch the third match like we usually do.

00:17:37Yeah.

00:17:38Well, I'm into that silky vodka or whatever it is for an off-strike, I don't know.

00:17:43Extra smooth.

00:17:44Extra smooth.

00:17:45Okay.

00:17:46Oh, well, maybe we'll let it go.

00:17:50If I came to the show next time and someone says, you should have saw that first match.

00:17:55It was one of the best matches I've ever seen.

00:17:57Shit, no.

00:17:58I knew it would go.

00:17:59Who could have done that?

00:18:00Who would you have over in the show?

00:18:01I would take...

00:18:02Looking on the sky, I would take and...

00:18:12Even though he would have liked it and he would have bitched like a son of a bitch and

00:18:15I would have to baby him the whole way through and tell him how important he was.

00:18:21Dick Murdoch was one of the greatest workers of all times.

00:18:25I would have had Murdoch.

00:18:29Let's do a show in April at Madison Square Garden here.

00:18:32We're going to put Murdoch up front, first match.

00:18:39I put Murdoch against somebody I knew he wouldn't lay down because he's on the first match.

00:18:49I'd take another great worker and an athlete, Dr. Steve Williams, and I'd have to do some

00:18:56heavy explaining to them why they're opening the show.

00:19:01But in my line of thinking is that if this is the opening of the show, the people are

00:19:07buzzing.

00:19:08If this was the opening match, can you imagine what's coming?

00:19:12So we're going to book seven or eight matches, do you want?

00:19:15Give me the show.

00:19:16Okay, let's book seven or eight matches.

00:19:20Then I would have to go with...

00:19:26We have the tag teams and the tag teams traditionally were on at the end of the night when they

00:19:34first started.

00:19:35And they used to put the main event on early.

00:19:39I didn't like that.

00:19:40The main event is the main event.

00:19:43That was a holdover from the 50s when Buddy Rogers wanted to get out of the building.

00:19:47Get out of the building?

00:19:48Oh, okay.

00:19:49Yeah.

00:19:50Okay?

00:19:51Didn't Hogan have a little bit of that too?

00:19:52He wanted to get out of there?

00:19:53Sometimes you'd work two cities too, I know that happens sometimes.

00:19:56But they kept that tradition because it became a habit and no one realized why they had that

00:20:03habit.

00:20:04Gotcha.

00:20:05So we know the first match and then we know our seventh and eighth match.

00:20:15You want to put your main event last?

00:20:17Yeah.

00:20:18My main event is going to be...

00:20:19And it's going to be Steamboat Morocco?

00:20:20Morocco and Orndorff and Wyndham.

00:20:29Wyndham and Orndorff right before that?

00:20:32Yeah.

00:20:33And then we're going back and Morocco is not the Intercontinental Champion.

00:20:39Okay, right.

00:20:40That's true.

00:20:41Okay.

00:20:42So he's not the Intercontinental Champion at this time.

00:20:46Okay.

00:20:47Okay?

00:20:48We'll have that happen when we do the Intercontinental guys.

00:20:51Just remember we have to have them drop it before April.

00:20:54Yeah.

00:20:55Okay, so the tag teams, you were saying the placement of the tag teams in the card.

00:21:00Okay.

00:21:01We've got fabulous ones coming.

00:21:02We've got...

00:21:03We have Saito here now so you can put him in Fuji.

00:21:06What are you thinking?

00:21:08I would put the fabulous ones against the Freebirds on third.

00:21:15Again, you know, what a great team, okay?

00:21:23And then on fourth, I would have Blackjack Mulligan versus Ivan Koloff.

00:21:38Okay, you know you're going to have a rugged match there.

00:21:43It's old school.

00:21:44You've got a former world champion and a guy everybody knows, I don't know how many times

00:21:50at that time, had been tag team champions with Lonzo, okay?

00:21:54And he had wrestled everybody for the title.

00:21:56Right.

00:21:57Okay, on our sixth match, and this is the Gardens, we're going to have Andre.

00:22:08And I'd put Andre against Big John Stunt.

00:22:15Okay?

00:22:18After the fourth match, I would put a Piper's Pit.

00:22:26Did you like that concept?

00:22:27Did you like how he did the pit?

00:22:29Yes, I did.

00:22:30Very much so.

00:22:31I mean, people still talk about the coconut.

00:22:33Yeah.

00:22:34Right?

00:22:35Yeah.

00:22:36So, I would have him...

00:22:39Look at this goddamn card, by the way.

00:22:42Jesus.

00:22:44To get Roddy over, him being so quick, and if this was his first time, I'd put somebody

00:22:53out there that couldn't match what's with Roddy.

00:22:57So Roddy could really get over.

00:22:59Any suggestions?

00:23:00I am Mike Sharp.

00:23:11Okay.

00:23:12So now, all I have to do is fill in that second match.

00:23:18And the second match, we want to start out hot.

00:23:24Then the Freebirds and the Fabulous Ones will have a hot finish.

00:23:31And we're going to break away from the standard thing they used to do of count outs, like

00:23:37when you put Golov and Mulligan together.

00:23:41Okay?

00:23:42That was an easy way out.

00:23:44Nobody has to think of a finish.

00:23:46With these two guys, you get in the room and you say,

00:23:50I need Mulligan to get over.

00:23:53Tell me how to do it.

00:23:55And they'll come up with a great finish.

00:23:58You can give them suggestions.

00:24:00You can point them in the right direction.

00:24:02But nobody knows how to get this finish over like they're going to.

00:24:06More than likely, you know, he'll go for the claw.

00:24:10Get the claw stuck.

00:24:12We'll go for something.

00:24:14And they'll have no referee bumps.

00:24:16Let's get rid of referee bumps.

00:24:18They're never going to see a referee bump.

00:24:20Okay.

00:24:21Until the title switch.

00:24:23Okay.

00:24:24There's never a referee bump.

00:24:26Okay?

00:24:27Because they'll abuse it if they overuse.

00:24:29Everything.

00:24:30Everything.

00:24:31And that's what happened, I believe, when they went to big shows.

00:24:33When they had two stars, they thought, well,

00:24:36we can't have either one of them lose.

00:24:38Well, somebody has to lose and somebody has to win.

00:24:42They did it too often, wouldn't you say, in New York?

00:24:44Too often.

00:24:45And the count outs and the 20 instead of 10, you know.

00:24:50And it was formulaic, too.

00:24:51You know you're getting the same thing.

00:24:53The first month they met, you're going to get a DQ.

00:24:55So then the next time they come in, you have a no DQ match,

00:24:58you get a count out.

00:24:59And then the third month, you get the blow off in the cage.

00:25:01The garden became kind of formulaic with Backlund and Hogan that way.

00:25:05Now, are you going to put any juice on this card?

00:25:08Who's going to leave the mat stand here?

00:25:11Now, this is our first show, right?

00:25:14Well, this is a show somewhere in the midst of this angle.

00:25:18We've already established Steamboat a little bit.

00:25:21He's taken the title.

00:25:23So we're in April.

00:25:24We're four months in.

00:25:25The guy that's going to get the juice is Barry Windom.

00:25:27Nobody bleeds better than Barry.

00:25:29And he's going to get owned off over by bleeding.

00:25:32So that's the only juice on the card.

00:25:35How are you going to keep Koloff's head from opening up?

00:25:37Even by accident?

00:25:38Crazy glue?

00:25:39Yeah, I guess so.

00:25:40But on the second match, we want him at this time, it's 1984,

00:25:47and he's 195 pounds and can fly the Tongan kit.

00:25:55And you're going to put him over?

00:25:56Yeah.

00:25:57And I'm going to put him over.

00:26:02Let me see.

00:26:03Who else we got here?

00:26:13I'm going to put him over Kurt Hennig.

00:26:22But Kurt's going to get heat after the match.

00:26:28Now, if you look at that card, it's Murdock and Williams,

00:26:33two athletes and great workers.

00:26:35It's Tongan kit that can fly and Hennig that can carry him through the match.

00:26:39And Kurt knew how to do everything right.

00:26:41And Kurt will get as much heat afterwards.

00:26:44He doesn't have to beat the kids.

00:26:49We're going to have the Freebirds screw the fabulous ones.

00:26:53We're going to have Mulligan beat Goldhoff.

00:26:58We got the pick in my chop, and that should be great.

00:27:02Then we have Andre going over.

00:27:05Then we have Wundorf beating Barry.

00:27:08Then we have Steamboat slipping over Morocco.

00:27:13We got one blood there, and it's the guy that's going to be the world's champion,

00:27:18getting it on Barry.

00:27:22Because down the line, we're putting the belt on Wundorf.

00:27:28So besides that card, in my mind, I'm leaving guys off,

00:27:33but you only can have eight, we'll say.

00:27:36I've taken some of the best workers in the business,

00:27:43and we've given them a great show.

00:27:49But the guy that's going to be the champion

00:27:51is the only guy that really got the juice on somebody.

00:27:56So Barry will bleed until it's in his boots.

00:28:00So they're going to say, Jesus, that Wundorf's something.

00:28:04And they're going to start talking, boy.

00:28:06I wonder what happens when he meets Steamboat.

00:28:09So we're booking out that way.

00:28:12So when that switch happens, how are we going to do that switch?

00:28:15How is Wundorf going to get the belt from Ricky?

00:28:19What we'll do is we'll use, now again,

00:28:23our plan is the same thing on television, correct?

00:28:28We'll get a Piper's Pit.

00:28:30Rather than it being the angle that we still remember,

00:28:37and if they could still do it, we'd suck up.

00:28:41We're going to do the angle with Wundorf and Steamboat.

00:28:47And it's going to be the first heavy angle done.

00:28:51Up until that time, Piper's getting over with his talk.

00:28:56He's going to have his nimble tongue,

00:29:01marvel people, and he'll get himself over.

00:29:08What's his role going to be in the whole thing?

00:29:10Is he just kind of a bystander to the incident between Orndorff,

00:29:15or is he going to kind of function with Orndorff,

00:29:18holding him down, holding Steamboat down?

00:29:20Well, if we're projecting that far out, which we want to do,

00:29:28we're going to drop hints, like I talked to you about,

00:29:31the one guy that had the thing, put it in,

00:29:33we're going to drop hints during the Piper's Pit,

00:29:36as Piper's knocking everybody,

00:29:38the only guy he puts over occasionally is Orndorff.

00:29:42You know, boy, I like my shot at him,

00:29:44but whoa, gee, he's a toughie, you know, that kind of thing.

00:29:48And then when we do get Ricky down on Piper's Pit,

00:29:55who comes out to save Ricky but another one of the brothers, Jimmy Slicker.

00:30:01And then they do the angle with the coconut, and we have a double angle.

00:30:06Right.

00:30:07You could tag team that all over the place.

00:30:09Yeah.

00:30:12And we can run that angle as a tag team.

00:30:16Rather than the world champion having to defend the belt every month,

00:30:19you can come back and build up, you know, in a tag match for a couple of months.

00:30:28You can have the first month Orndorff slip over Snooker.

00:30:39The second month Orndorff could slip over Ricky.

00:30:45In the third month, you can have Orndorff go over in the championship match.

00:30:52With Piper's help, I guess back to almost like the original card that they had,

00:31:01for Piper, Orndorff, and Orton.

00:31:04Right, that's true.

00:31:06But knowing that Hulk isn't coming, you've got the belt on Orndorff.

00:31:13Now, again, I'm going to go back to where the territory was.

00:31:19Our best months are the winter months in the northeast.

00:31:24So we get the belt on Orndorff in August, right, on a big show.

00:31:29We know September's going to be down.

00:31:32He doesn't have to defend the belt in the gardens then,

00:31:36but we can get another babyface over and hot and challenge him.

00:31:41And then we've got October, November, and September, we're ready to roll again.

00:31:45Right.

00:31:46How does he take the strap?

00:31:49Is it a screw job?

00:31:50Right in the middle of the ring.

00:31:51Right in the middle of the ring.

00:31:53Hits the finisher and pins him.

00:31:55That's it.

00:31:57People want to see winners and losers, in my estimation,

00:32:03and screw jobs are done way too often.

00:32:10And the thing is, James and I have talked about this,

00:32:15I'm a history buff.

00:32:17And most people don't understand history.

00:32:20And the reason why I make the same mistakes in the world

00:32:24is because I don't understand history.

00:32:26I make the same mistakes in the wrestling business

00:32:29because we don't understand the history of the wrestling business.

00:32:32The history of the wrestling business was,

00:32:35promoter didn't have a book before television.

00:32:38You know, he would book, have a matchmaker,

00:32:40and he'd match the matches himself.

00:32:42He'd tell the guys, well, I'd like you over.

00:32:45Well, James would say, well, hey, can't we do something else?

00:32:51All right, yeah, we'll talk to the other guys.

00:32:53You guys work something out.

00:32:55So if James and I are going to work on a finish,

00:32:58and James doesn't want to do the finish,

00:33:00and doesn't want to put me over,

00:33:02and James and I are friends,

00:33:05we're going to work something out.

00:33:08It doesn't do anything for anybody.

00:33:10One of the things people forget is,

00:33:13if two people are out there,

00:33:15one's got to go away a winner,

00:33:20and even though he wins,

00:33:22the other guy doesn't have to look back.

00:33:25Because we're having Henning put over the Tonga Kid.

00:33:29But after that match, Henning's going to get heat.

00:33:32He's a heel.

00:33:34People will be booing the shit out of Henning

00:33:37because he's going to really kick the shit out of the kid.

00:33:40They'll forget he lost.

00:33:43But a title,

00:33:47if it was what we once said it was,

00:33:50it was sacred, right?

00:33:52It's the holy grail.

00:33:53It's the holy grail.

00:33:56If it was the holy grail,

00:33:58we would treat it like the holy grail.

00:34:01We would cover it.

00:34:03We wouldn't let it get scratched.

00:34:05We wouldn't tarnish it.

00:34:06We wouldn't be pissing in it.

00:34:10So there's winners and losers.

00:34:13Until I'd say

00:34:27some promoters,

00:34:28and I don't want to say names,

00:34:29but in the history of the wrestling business,

00:34:31some promoters got more powerful in the NWA than others.

00:34:35And because of their power they had,

00:34:37they'd be on the executive board.

00:34:39Their boy, when the champion came,

00:34:42they'd go an hour.

00:34:43That was their out, right?

00:34:45You went an hour with the champion.

00:34:47Well, do you really want to sit and watch something for an hour?

00:34:51Would you want to watch a movie with Silence of the Lambs

00:34:55for two hours and there's no finish to it?

00:34:59You know, Hannibal never gets out of jail.

00:35:03What was the point?

00:35:05There's no chairing, there's no destination.

00:35:07We sat there for an hour.

00:35:08Yeah, we were entertained,

00:35:11disguised the world champion.

00:35:13And it doesn't hurt.

00:35:16And that's what their mentality was.

00:35:18We have to protect our interest.

00:35:23And because of that,

00:35:25that's why I said they couldn't agree to lunch.

00:35:28We got to protect our interest rather than seeing the big picture.

00:35:31We need to protect the world title.

00:35:35How many times did you ever hear when you were growing up?

00:35:37I did too when I was a kid.

00:35:38Oh, wrestling's all fake, but the world champion's match is real.

00:35:42Right?

00:35:44I remember when I was a kid, Bruno was the champion.

00:35:47Everybody used to say,

00:35:48Oh, wrestling's fake, but Bruno's real.

00:35:51Wow.

00:35:52Bruno's real and everybody else is fake.

00:35:59But it was protected, you know what I mean?

00:36:02And then what happened was,

00:36:05again, I just want to say this.

00:36:08Compromise tarnished the title.

00:36:10So here we go back from the very beginning and can start.

00:36:15So there's winners and losers.

00:36:17And if your world champion puts Orndorff over in the middle of the ring

00:36:25with the pile driver,

00:36:27I mean, they can have a finish that comes a great false finish,

00:36:30false finish, false finish.

00:36:32Rick goes to do something.

00:36:34Paul collapses.

00:36:35He hits the turnbuckle.

00:36:36He turns around.

00:36:37Paul just staggers up and boom.

00:36:40And he falls back on him.

00:36:41One, two, three.

00:36:42But he's still got the finish.

00:36:44If your world champion can put a guy over in the middle of the ring,

00:36:47it's going to be hard for the rest of that dressing room to tell you

00:36:49they're not going to put somebody over.

00:36:51Yeah, that's true.

00:36:53So if the precedent started there,

00:36:55it goes through the dressing room.

00:36:59And so that's how I would start.

00:37:02And I would keep the belt on Orndorff.

00:37:05You would keep it the rest of the year?

00:37:07He would keep it until I could see another guy replacing him.

00:37:13Now, of course, if it didn't draw, but I think Orndorff would have drawn.

00:37:19James and I had this conversation yesterday, right, James?

00:37:22I said the funny thing was I would have put the belt on Orndorff

00:37:25and had Hogan chase him.

00:37:27It didn't matter because it turned out winner anyway.

00:37:30But it could have been maybe even bigger.

00:37:32Who knows?

00:37:33But that's hindsight.

00:37:34But Orndorff would be my guy,

00:37:37and I'd go with him as long as I could

00:37:43and as hard as I could,

00:37:45and he would...

00:37:47You got a whole town of great baby faces to go to from...

00:37:51He could work with Duggan.

00:37:53They had a great series of matches with Duggan himself.

00:37:56Butch Reed, Junkyard Dog.

00:37:59I mean, it goes on and on.

00:38:00Dusty.

00:38:02And Orndorff could have an incredible match.

00:38:06Now you get...

00:38:08You've opened up.

00:38:10On the first card,

00:38:12Paul's busted, Barry opened.

00:38:14His dad just beat the ex-world champion.

00:38:18His dad comes down and says,

00:38:20Hey, you're beating up my boy.

00:38:21You think you're that tough?

00:38:23So you can have...

00:38:25So you wouldn't kayfabe the relationship?

00:38:27Vince did that for their entire tenure there together.

00:38:29You wouldn't put that out there?

00:38:30Yeah.

00:38:31Because everybody knew.

00:38:32I mean, they tried to make it like

00:38:34there was no other wrestling but WWE.

00:38:39But, okay, maybe there wasn't,

00:38:42but the Florida tape came in here.

00:38:47All the people watched Florida.

00:38:49Sure, yeah, we were able to.

00:38:50Cable was coming in now, so we were getting...

00:38:52Okay, so you knew there were.

00:38:54The magazines.

00:38:56So you were trying to do the ostrich,

00:38:59put your head in the sand.

00:39:00I think you could have got a lot more mileage

00:39:02out of them being father and son.

00:39:04They didn't have to tag up all the time,

00:39:05but certainly it's a great way to have Mulligan,

00:39:10who can talk as well as anybody

00:39:12who's ever been able to talk in the business,

00:39:14be tagged up with a son

00:39:16who's one of the greatest babyfaces of all times,

00:39:18who does the selling,

00:39:19and the father makes the comeback.

00:39:22You know?

00:39:23So you've opened up the next week.

00:39:25You've opened up with another match

00:39:28where now you could have Mulligan the next month.

00:39:33You could have Mulligan against Orndorff

00:39:35because that means something right there.

00:39:40Tag him out and put Orndorff with somebody.

00:39:42Yeah.

00:39:44Or just put Mulligan against Orndorff

00:39:47and get Orndorff over Mulligan.

00:39:53He would do it because he'd just be

00:39:55a pull-off of the guards.

00:39:58And so Orndorff would be your guy

00:40:00through the winter business?

00:40:01Yeah.

00:40:02Because I think Paul,

00:40:05through the winter,

00:40:07would draw with anybody.

00:40:09You've already have lined him with Piper and Snooker.

00:40:13Orndorff and Snooker would be an incredible match.

00:40:18Steamboat and Piper would be an incredible match.

00:40:22Yeah.

00:40:23And then Morocco is still in the mix.

00:40:25You know, we're not going to disrupt these guys.

00:40:27They're still in the mix.

00:40:28The tag matches now become interesting.

00:40:31Dossi's there for special matches,

00:40:33you know, bull rope matches.

00:40:35You have superstar Graham

00:40:37who is an icon.

00:40:39And what a match you could have

00:40:42in the gardens with Orndorff and Billy Graham.

00:40:47I mean, the poster alone should sell out.

00:40:50Right?

00:40:51So you'd use Billy as a face?

00:40:53Yeah.

00:40:54Because he was a face here anyway.

00:40:56The only time he was a heel,

00:40:57he was a World Heavyweight Champion.

00:40:59He was the first guy that was a heel to be cheered.

00:41:04And the only time he was ever a heel here,

00:41:07and it was split 50-50,

00:41:08he really worked with Dossi.

00:41:10But the more they put Billy as a heel,

00:41:13the bigger baby face he became

00:41:15because no one had seen him in this time.

00:41:18And I happened to be here then.

00:41:20Nobody had seen a heel talk like superstar Billy Graham.

00:41:23And everybody wanted to be superstar Billy Graham.

00:41:25He looked great.

00:41:27So I mean, that poster, Orndorff and Graham,

00:41:30at the gardens,

00:41:32I mean, all you need is a few other things

00:41:36and that would sell out automatically, I think.

00:41:42And then you have,

00:41:45and then if we travel around the country,

00:41:48you have Orndorff and Junkyard Dog,

00:41:51Reed and Duggan for the Mid-South, okay?

00:41:56The other thing is,

00:41:57Orndorff's a Florida boy,

00:41:59so if you went to Florida,

00:42:00he's with Dossi, he's with Barry,

00:42:02he's with Mulligan.

00:42:04You're going to sell out.

00:42:07So when you go to the West Coast,

00:42:10you get Chavo.

00:42:13And then you have Siva Afa for San Francisco,

00:42:18with Orndorff.

00:42:19He'd have a great run in Texas with all the Von Eriks.

00:42:22All the Von Eriks.

00:42:23And the Von Eriks were pretty big.

00:42:25What a lot of people don't know is

00:42:27the Von Eriks came up to Boston

00:42:30and to a stadium.

00:42:32I'm going to say it was 85.

00:42:34It was right outside of Boston.

00:42:36It was in Revere.

00:42:39A saugust, saugust.

00:42:42And they drew like 30,000 people.

00:42:45Wow.

00:42:46So, I mean, Orndorff against Kerry,

00:42:50there's another.

00:42:52I mean, so, that's why.

00:42:55And the thing about Paul was

00:42:57if you watched him work,

00:42:59he was really,

00:43:01he could kick it into another gear

00:43:03most workers can't do.

00:43:05His talk was intense,

00:43:07he looked intense, he looked the part.

00:43:08He looked like a world champion.

00:43:10Paul looked like a cartoon character in the face,

00:43:13you know, with the big block chin.

00:43:15He looked like Pat Tillman.

00:43:17He looked like an athlete.

00:43:19So he would be the guy I'd go with.

00:43:21And eventually, in my head,

00:43:23eventually,

00:43:26the people would turn Paul.

00:43:28Oh, you think?

00:43:29Yeah, eventually because after a while,

00:43:31when a heel is over like Paul would be,

00:43:33it'd be like Dusty when he was a heel.

00:43:36Dusty was over so well

00:43:39that eventually the people would turn him.

00:43:42But that's the end of the day.

00:43:44But I would go with him as my heel.

00:43:46Through 84.

00:43:47Yeah.

00:44:00So we got our heavyweight race through 84,

00:44:04the other major title in New York

00:44:06was always the Intercontinental.

00:44:08At the start of the year, it's Don Morocco.

00:44:11We know we can't keep it that way

00:44:13because you want to involve him in an angle

00:44:15where the heavyweight title is involved in April.

00:44:18So where does it go from Morocco

00:44:20between January and April

00:44:22and where does it go beyond that?

00:44:24Okay.

00:44:25We're going to switch.

00:44:29We're going to have Morocco lose the steamboat.

00:44:33Rather than...

00:44:34This is starting new, right?

00:44:36So Morocco isn't the Intercontinental.

00:44:38Well, yeah.

00:44:39In January, you inherit the hooking position with Morocco.

00:44:43As the...

00:44:44Okay.

00:44:45So it's Morocco here.

00:44:47Okay.

00:44:51And we have him with steamboat in what, May?

00:44:55Right in here, right in April.

00:44:57March, April, okay.

00:44:59So I want to get the belt off him as quick as possible

00:45:04to rebuild him for steamboat.

00:45:06Okay.

00:45:07So I'm going to go in there

00:45:10with the guy...

00:45:12Morocco is a great worker

00:45:14and to me, he had one of the best wrestling bodies of all times.

00:45:20So I'm going to go in there with a guy to me that was...

00:45:24And it's funny, in this day and age,

00:45:27you don't hear his name that much,

00:45:29but there's no bigger card except for Hogan

00:45:33than Superstar Billy Graham.

00:45:35I mean, he was the man.

00:45:38So he's going to be a Intercontinental champion.

00:45:42How do you want to do it?

00:45:44Well, I'm going to have a finish

00:45:48and we're going to do it in January

00:45:50and Morocco is going to lose to Superstar in January.

00:45:57And we have a finish.

00:45:59I don't want to have...

00:46:02If Billy was using the bear hug as a finish,

00:46:05we're not going to use the bear hug on Morocco as the finish.

00:46:10We can use a variation out of it

00:46:13where there's a pin, but...

00:46:21Superstar can go for it, Morocco can duck it,

00:46:23they can collide, they can have a clothesline,

00:46:25they can have anything,

00:46:27but Superstar is going to end up on top, one, two, three.

00:46:30But I'm not going to have Morocco give up.

00:46:33I'm not going to have Mikey Hill

00:46:38underneath Orndorff giving up.

00:46:42And Billy is Billy,

00:46:45and it's just him winning the title

00:46:47that people are going to go crazy if this is the guys.

00:46:49So okay, we have Billy with the title.

00:46:53So as we go on down,

00:46:58as we were booking the year out,

00:47:01we didn't come to December for a big show.

00:47:05Right?

00:47:07So again, knowing that this is 84,

00:47:11and we're selling to kids,

00:47:14and correct me if I'm wrong,

00:47:16but wasn't He-Man and that guy Skeletor

00:47:19super characters?

00:47:22Yeah.

00:47:23Billy Graham looks like a super character.

00:47:29Orndorff looks like a super character.

00:47:31So my big show would be in December,

00:47:37and I'd have a Christmas day,

00:47:41and I'd raise the tickets

00:47:43to twice the price they've ever been.

00:47:46At the Garden.

00:47:47At the Garden.

00:47:48Twice the price they've ever been,

00:47:50because this is a Christmas day present.

00:47:52You can't miss.

00:47:54Buy your kids this ticket.

00:47:56My main event in December for the title

00:48:02would be Orndorff against Superstar Graham.

00:48:06Title for title?

00:48:08I would say that it's title versus title,

00:48:13but obviously if Superstar wins,

00:48:17he'd have to default

00:48:19into Continental Championship.

00:48:22Now with Graham,

00:48:23since you're going to give him the title,

00:48:25and he's going to be a major focus,

00:48:27your number two guy for the whole year,

00:48:30in 84 he was doing the bald head and the karate gang.

00:48:35Would you go back to the bleach blonde?

00:48:37I'm going back to when he was Superstar Billy Graham,

00:48:41when he came to New York with the tie-dye.

00:48:44Right, so you'd grow the hair back out,

00:48:46make him dye the hair again,

00:48:47go back to the glamorous.

00:48:49In fact, he did do that when he came back here.

00:48:54He came for a very short run,

00:48:56and he grew the hair back for a short while.

00:48:58In fact, he did it in the Carolinas for Crockett

00:49:03before he came back to Vince.

00:49:05Right before Vince went nationwide.

00:49:09That would have been the early 80s, 81, 82?

00:49:11Yeah, 82.

00:49:13He was working with Jimmy Valiant at the time,

00:49:17and then he got the chance to go back.

00:49:20We now have, again,

00:49:23this is 84, so we're in the disco era,

00:49:25so the tie-dye works, right?

00:49:27The bow works.

00:49:31To me, again, that poster sells out.

00:49:35Well, keeping it consistent also with the times,

00:49:39I think one of the main reasons that Superstar,

00:49:42and he would tell you this himself,

00:49:43Superstar didn't get a bigger run

00:49:45when he came back the second time for Vince in 83,

00:49:47was his personal issues.

00:49:49Would you be comfortable, if going back in time,

00:49:52hanging a title on him?

00:49:54See, I never knew he had these personal issues.

00:49:58Well, we say personal issues,

00:49:59but we're talking about dope.

00:50:00Yeah, yeah, and I'd never...

00:50:03I was interviewed about Billy's book,

00:50:06and Billy hit it well.

00:50:11I never knew Billy to be on drugs.

00:50:16And I mean, I had an angle with him one time in Florida.

00:50:19We were partners, and we broke away,

00:50:21and he did some of the greatest interviews I ever saw.

00:50:24He was the first guy ever to do a still picture interview.

00:50:28We had a series of where he had been strapped

00:50:31to the desert to beat the demons out of him.

00:50:35Right, yeah.

00:50:36He had the scorpions crawling on my body.

00:50:38I mean, it was done well.

00:50:40Sounds like something you'd come up with.

00:50:41Yeah, but it was him.

00:50:42It was him.

00:50:43I mean, he had become a babyface.

00:50:45That was the turn.

00:50:46He went to the desert.

00:50:47Well, I never, and I didn't socialize with Billy,

00:50:54but I never knew.

00:50:56And the guy in the book asked me, he said,

00:50:57what about, and I said, this room.

00:51:00I knew there was something.

00:51:02You know, we lost the weight and stuff,

00:51:05but I didn't know what it was.

00:51:08I thought it may be personal problems,

00:51:10but it was the furthest thing for me,

00:51:12because again, to mention the sink,

00:51:14I knew Billy wouldn't even have a beer.

00:51:18He was up every morning.

00:51:19He'd get up, set his alarm clock for 4 o'clock in the morning,

00:51:24take some ephedra and go back to sleep

00:51:26and wake up, and it was 6 to go work out in the gym

00:51:29before anybody else.

00:51:31So I'd, you know, that.

00:51:34So he was reliable enough that he could put the table on.

00:51:36Okay, yeah.

00:51:37But if we're going back and being honest in 84,

00:51:40what am I going to do?

00:51:41Fight the whole crew?

00:51:45It'd be a small locker room.

00:51:46There'd be nobody there, including myself.

00:51:48So what are we talking about?

00:51:50It'd be Bruno and Howard Finkel.

00:51:52It'd be Bruno and Backlund.

00:51:55Against Howard, nobody else.

00:51:58Howard and Vince.

00:52:01No, Vince would be there either.

00:52:03Howard and, what's the guy we talk about?

00:52:08The guy, Eric.

00:52:10Oh, Eric.

00:52:11It'd be Howard and Eric.

00:52:13So, okay, so Graham, who do you put him with through the year?

00:52:18Who were going to be the heels that I give him a good run?

00:52:21Now, and again, knowing this is 84,

00:52:33and we're going to placate this one,

00:52:40you know I had Murdoch and Williams on the first match, right?

00:52:43Well, to get it hot.

00:52:45But to get that to mean what it should,

00:52:51there's going to have to be, and this isn't compromising myself

00:52:55because both of them are great workers.

00:52:58Murdoch is going to work with Billy Graham, okay?

00:53:04Because Billy was a great worker for what he did.

00:53:11Dick Tarker, but Dick Murdoch, and the Funks will tell you this,

00:53:15was one of the greatest workers of all times.

00:53:18Dickie could make anybody look good.

00:53:21The other thing that's going back, 84,

00:53:24Dickie doesn't look like Billy, okay?

00:53:29So we know that, right?

00:53:31So now, but he can work.

00:53:35But I've also spotlighted Billy's physique.

00:53:40Against a different opponent.

00:53:42Interesting, yeah.

00:53:43I'm not going to spotlight that physique.

00:53:47Up against Tony Atlas or something like that.

00:53:49Until December when I got that poster already in my head.

00:53:54Well, against Orndorfer.

00:53:55Right, right, right, right.

00:53:56So I'm going to start feeding guys that can work,

00:53:59that are in shape, but not muscular.

00:54:02So that's where I would go with that.

00:54:04Interesting, okay.

00:54:07So you've got Murdoch.

00:54:09We've got a lot of candidates here that fit that bill.

00:54:12Another match, and I don't know if they ever worked together,

00:54:17but Dr. Death was a great athlete.

00:54:20And Dr. Death looked like a wrestler.

00:54:23Again, he didn't have that body that Billy had.

00:54:27So there you have Murdoch.

00:54:29You have a whole bunch of guys that

00:54:37You have a whole bunch of guys there that still can get him over.

00:54:45Yeah.

00:54:46And then you've got Ivan Koloff.

00:54:48There was a Koloff, and there's a storyline there

00:54:51because Koloff and Billy were one-time partners.

00:54:55You've got them.

00:54:57You know, so.

00:55:01Even somebody maybe like an Adonis.

00:55:04Yeah, Adonis could work.

00:55:06Adonis could work.

00:55:07The thing is, we're going to surround.

00:55:13One time Eddie Graham told me, he said,

00:55:18if you get a steak and they just serve it to you,

00:55:22and it's not garnished, it's not going to taste as good.

00:55:28If it comes out with a nice cut tomato,

00:55:32a little bit of lettuce, nice sliced cucumber.

00:55:37There's a psychological advantage to that.

00:55:39Yeah.

00:55:40So knowing that Billy's strong point is his body in his interview

00:55:46and not his work.

00:55:50He was a good worker, but he wasn't a worker

00:55:53that Murdock, Adonis, Koloff, or Williams are.

00:55:58So they're going to do their part on their end

00:56:02to reinforce Billy's physique.

00:56:08Now, let me ask you an interesting question.

00:56:11With a guy like Graham, who could talk with the best of them,

00:56:14that's universally agreed, the physique you're talking about,

00:56:17particularly because you're going to wait the whole year

00:56:21before you put him in the ring with somebody

00:56:23who's competitive in that aspect.

00:56:25Do you run a risk of Graham outshining your heavyweight champion?

00:56:31No, because the difference is my heavyweight champion

00:56:35can work his ass off.

00:56:39My heavyweight champion is going to have the best match

00:56:42on the card every night.

00:56:44The reason why, or reason is, it's 1984,

00:56:50the reason is Paul Orndorff is a professional athlete,

00:56:55played professional football,

00:56:59one of the toughest guys ever in this business,

00:57:01one of the toughest guys ever come out of Tampa,

00:57:04and there was a lot of tough guys come out of Tampa,

00:57:07and Paul Orndorff is not going to be outshined.

00:57:13I always liked it when somebody tried out work, Paul,

00:57:16because I knew I was going to see the best.

00:57:20Out of Paul.

00:57:22And again, this is back in 1984 when Paul was way in his prime.

00:57:28He was great.

00:57:31Remember, he was one of the first wrestlers

00:57:33to do a national commercial.

00:57:35For years, he did the, where he held the ball like Atlas,

00:57:39and it was the icy hot, the one with the rub.

00:57:42Oh, you're kidding. No, no.

00:57:44Oh yeah, he was one of the first wrestlers

00:57:46ever to do a national commercial.

00:57:49And that was before WrestleMania.

00:57:52Yeah, sure.

00:57:55All right, so it's Graham for the year,

00:57:56and the big, well, the culmination of that

00:57:59is Orndorff and Graham.

00:58:00What's the result of that?

00:58:02Orndorff got to go over.

00:58:06Does that damage your icy champ now?

00:58:09Do you need to move it off him?

00:58:10Or does the belt go to Orndorff,

00:58:11and he's got to give the belt to someone,

00:58:13and there's a tournament?

00:58:14How do you handle the two belts?

00:58:15The thing is, a champion never steps down

00:58:19and takes another, or in Ira or anyway,

00:58:23we never, if the champion won,

00:58:27he didn't have both belts.

00:58:30It'd be like when the junior heavyweight champion

00:58:33wrestled the heavyweight champions,

00:58:35the heavyweight champion won.

00:58:36He didn't become the junior heavyweight champion.

00:58:38But that's an interesting scenario,

00:58:40because it's brand new, and it's 84.

00:58:42You could do whatever you wanted.

00:58:44You could have Paul

00:58:48take that belt

00:58:51and give it to his buddy, Roddy Piper,

00:58:54as a present, Christmas present.

00:58:57And now you've got Piper saying

00:58:59that he's the Intercontinental Champion,

00:59:02and the commissioners are all up in a huff

00:59:05and saying this can't be,

00:59:06you can do an angle right off of that,

00:59:08because Piper all this time

00:59:10is going to be tagged along with Orndorff.

00:59:13With Orndorff, we said.

00:59:15So, now if we have that

00:59:20tagged along there, right?

00:59:24And we went through buildings

00:59:26and not blowing out,

00:59:28that's our main event,

00:59:29and then we go to buildings after that,

00:59:33with Piper having the belt,

00:59:36you could have Orndorff, Piper, and Morocco

00:59:39against Graham, Steamboat, and Snooker.

00:59:44Right, because the Piper angle for Snooker,

00:59:46yeah, that's fantastic.

00:59:47You could have a six-way,

00:59:50break them apart, put them together,

00:59:52a tag match,

00:59:53but you don't have to overuse

00:59:55you're the world champion.

00:59:56And the other thing, during,

00:59:58and I know it's cliché, cliché, cliché,

01:00:01but if we're going to house shows,

01:00:05and the idea is,

01:00:06if you have a chance,

01:00:10eventually the people have to get a payoff.

01:00:12And my belief is that he'll,

01:00:14you know, people come to see that he'll get beat.

01:00:17And eventually he has to get beat.

01:00:20But he can get beat in a six-man tag match.

01:00:23And you can film it,

01:00:25and show it on TV,

01:00:26which Vince never did.

01:00:27They never took advantage of the house shows.

01:00:30Right off the top of my head,

01:00:31this is in Providence, Rhode Island,

01:00:34and Graham, in the six-man,

01:00:37beats Orndorff,

01:00:39who he had just done a job for.

01:00:41So now they're one-on-one.

01:00:42Right.

01:00:43But you protect your champion,

01:00:44he's got the belt still,

01:00:45and you can run it another six minutes.

01:00:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:47He hasn't lost the belt.

01:00:49And it's not clean.

01:00:53It breaks into a six-way.

01:00:55Piper and Snooker will go off.

01:00:57Morocco and Steamboat go off.

01:01:00Graham shoots Orndorff into the ring,

01:01:04gives him a big foot,

01:01:06hits the ropes,

01:01:07and drops a leg before the guy ever got there.

01:01:09And no one knows it, right?

01:01:10No one saw it.

01:01:11Hogan dropped the leg.

01:01:12Dropped the leg.

01:01:13One, two, three.

01:01:14We got Billy,

01:01:16gets his hand raised,

01:01:17and we show it on TV.

01:01:18And you light the fire on that angle again.

01:01:20Yeah, you light that,

01:01:21and we got three guys getting over.

01:01:24And we give

01:01:26the people that paid their hire

01:01:28that paid their hired money

01:01:31a reprieve.

01:01:32You can't just keep on...

01:01:34I mean,

01:01:35my deal has always been

01:01:36he draws money,

01:01:37and I believe that,

01:01:39but you just can't keep on

01:01:40sticking it to them

01:01:41and sticking it to them.

01:01:42They get a break once in a while.

01:01:45It's like us paying $3

01:01:47a gallon for gas.

01:01:50Once in a while,

01:01:51they give us a break,

01:01:52and they drop it to $2.75.

01:01:53You know what I mean?

01:01:54Once in a while.

01:01:55All right, that's the IC title.

01:01:58Yeah.

01:02:10So we've got the heavyweight

01:02:14scene in the bag

01:02:15as well as the IC,

01:02:16and that leaves us,

01:02:17as far as WWE at the time

01:02:18was concerned,

01:02:19with the tag teams.

01:02:20At the time,

01:02:21you were getting the book in January,

01:02:22and the belt is on

01:02:24Tony Atlas and Rocky Johnson.

01:02:27So I bring the Freebirds

01:02:28in right away,

01:02:29and they beat them.

01:02:31Off the bat?

01:02:32Right off the bat,

01:02:33because we know

01:02:34there's problems

01:02:35between those two.

01:02:36Correct.

01:02:37And we don't want...

01:02:39It's hard enough.

01:02:41Some guys can get along

01:02:43business-wise,

01:02:44even though they don't

01:02:45get along personally,

01:02:46but these guys couldn't.

01:02:47So the Freebirds go over.

01:02:49This would be

01:02:50Hayes and Gordy.

01:02:52Hayes and Gordy.

01:02:53Okay.

01:02:55And...

01:03:04I'd keep it Hayes and Gordy.

01:03:06There would never be

01:03:07the third guy.

01:03:08Buddy Roberts doesn't come along?

01:03:10No.

01:03:11Okay.

01:03:12I mean,

01:03:14it was a good concept.

01:03:17You know,

01:03:18they brought music first.

01:03:19They brought that concept.

01:03:22But in all actuality,

01:03:24if you're trying

01:03:25to keep things sacred,

01:03:27how can the third person

01:03:29be a tag team competitor?

01:03:31I mean...

01:03:32What do you think

01:03:33was the original logic for it?

01:03:36Michael was learning to work,

01:03:40and Terry could work,

01:03:43and Buddy could work.

01:03:45He was like a prodigy,

01:03:46Terry Gordy.

01:03:47They said from like 18 or whatever,

01:03:48he ran out of the game.

01:03:4950.

01:03:50Yeah.

01:03:51He was unbelievable.

01:03:52One of the best workers

01:03:53I ever saw in my life.

01:03:54You know,

01:03:55he was almost like

01:03:56a cross between

01:03:58a Murdoch and a Funk.

01:04:00And it stopped the death

01:04:01of three of them.

01:04:04But I mean...

01:04:06So we...

01:04:07And Michael,

01:04:08the reason why,

01:04:09was Michael was brand new

01:04:10in the business,

01:04:11so what they would do is,

01:04:15the Von Erichs,

01:04:17Michael could talk.

01:04:19Gordy and Roberts couldn't.

01:04:21So Michael got all the heat,

01:04:22so in the spot shows,

01:04:24they would let Hayes work

01:04:28to polish himself off.

01:04:30Then in the big shows,

01:04:31Roberts would step in.

01:04:33Interesting, okay.

01:04:34It was a good concept,

01:04:36but we're going to keep

01:04:37the grill sacred,

01:04:39we're going to protect the grill,

01:04:40so the free birds.

01:04:42Okay?

01:04:43Now they're having a heel run here?

01:04:45Yeah.

01:04:46The thing is,

01:04:47one of...

01:04:50One of the things,

01:04:51and we're going back

01:04:52in the history,

01:04:55the WWF,

01:04:57which is now the WWE,

01:04:59but when it was the WWF,

01:05:00they always had this thing

01:05:02where, to me,

01:05:05the tag belts,

01:05:12even though they meant something,

01:05:14there was never

01:05:15an angle like Rapture.

01:05:19Michael Hayes is a smart guy,

01:05:22Terry Gordy was a smart guy.

01:05:24You have a lot of smart guys

01:05:26that will come up

01:05:27with great ideas.

01:05:28The free birds

01:05:29came up with great ideas.

01:05:32On that December show,

01:05:34that we're going to have,

01:05:36the one of...

01:05:37The big show, yeah.

01:05:39I'm going to have Junkyard Dog

01:05:40and Butch Reed against them.

01:05:46Okay.

01:05:54So they'll keep it the whole year?

01:05:56You'll work the free birds?

01:05:57Yeah, not...

01:05:58But in July,

01:06:00they're going to work

01:06:01the blinding angle

01:06:03with the Junkyard Dog

01:06:05where he can't see his kids anymore.

01:06:12So the dog is out.

01:06:16Yeah.

01:06:18So that's really going to

01:06:19prop that cat up

01:06:20because that's the dog's

01:06:21first time back

01:06:22when Ornoff wrestles

01:06:27Superstar.

01:06:28Superstar, yeah.

01:06:29And then you have the tag

01:06:31that are intercontinental

01:06:34title we don't have

01:06:35because Billy's

01:06:36the intercontinental champion.

01:06:37Right.

01:06:38But we could have

01:06:39a number one contender match

01:06:41with Morocco and Steamboat.

01:06:44Right.

01:06:45The former feud.

01:06:46So we have a former

01:06:49world champion.

01:06:52And you know what

01:06:53they used to announce

01:06:54years ago in the guidance,

01:06:55remember?

01:06:56Next month

01:06:59whether Bruno wins,

01:07:00he's wrestling

01:07:03Ivan Koloff

01:07:04and whether Koloff...

01:07:06I mean,

01:07:07if he was wrestling

01:07:08Bull Ramblers.

01:07:09Whether Bruno wins tonight,

01:07:10he's wrestling

01:07:11and I live in Koloff

01:07:12and whether Ivan Koloff

01:07:14wins,

01:07:15he's wrestling Pedro.

01:07:16You could do that.

01:07:19That angle with the

01:07:20junk cat dog

01:07:21blinding,

01:07:22getting blinded.

01:07:24I stole it

01:07:25when I blinded

01:07:26Dusty's sister

01:07:28and it works.

01:07:29Was it a fireball

01:07:30or what do you mean?

01:07:31No, I was suspended

01:07:34for, you know,

01:07:35I had left for

01:07:36about five months

01:07:37and they did

01:07:39This Is Your Life

01:07:41and they had it

01:07:42at the commentating.

01:07:43I hadn't been there

01:07:44for five months

01:07:46and Dusty's sister

01:07:47was behind the screen

01:07:50and said,

01:07:51honey,

01:07:52this is how you...

01:07:54Do you recognize this voice?

01:07:55I had other people

01:07:56do it first, right?

01:07:57That's right.

01:07:58They broke down

01:07:59and cried,

01:08:00oh, you're here.

01:08:01Well, he had just signed

01:08:02with an ink pen,

01:08:03you know,

01:08:04big flume

01:08:05for a contract

01:08:06with Flair.

01:08:08Well, there's all

01:08:09the baby faces

01:08:10came out to congratulate him

01:08:11because it was his

01:08:1315th year

01:08:14or 20th year

01:08:15being the American Dream

01:08:16and it had been

01:08:17in the paper

01:08:18and everything.

01:08:19You know,

01:08:20I came in

01:08:21and grabbed the ink

01:08:22and went to throw it

01:08:23in his eyes.

01:08:24He ducked

01:08:25and hit his sister

01:08:26and blinded her

01:08:27and then he

01:08:28said he wouldn't

01:08:29wrestle Flair

01:08:30until he wrestled me

01:08:31and I said,

01:08:32well, you can't wrestle me

01:08:33because I'm not

01:08:34in the territory

01:08:35and they said,

01:08:36well, you got to come back.

01:08:37I said, no, I ain't

01:08:38and I came back

01:08:39and I came back

01:08:40the night he wrestled Flair

01:08:42and I fucked him

01:08:43for the title.

01:08:44You know, I mean,

01:08:45he had Flair beat

01:08:46and I,

01:08:47so.

01:08:48So, the same

01:08:49kind of thing.

01:08:50Yeah, but I just

01:08:51stole it from the Freebirds.

01:08:52I mean, everything,

01:08:53you know,

01:08:54it's reinvented

01:08:55somehow

01:08:56or stolen somehow.

01:08:57So,

01:08:58yeah,

01:08:59and I,

01:09:00at that time,

01:09:01you got to remember,

01:09:02the Freebirds

01:09:03were the first

01:09:04with the music

01:09:05and we're going back

01:09:06to 84

01:09:07and we're going back

01:09:08to 84.

01:09:09Mm-hmm.

01:09:10Colorful for kids.

01:09:11Mm-hmm.

01:09:12The girls

01:09:13who,

01:09:14at that time,

01:09:15were a large part

01:09:16of the audience.

01:09:17The Freebirds

01:09:18were good looking guys.

01:09:19Long,

01:09:20blonde,

01:09:21damn,

01:09:22Michael did

01:09:23the moonwalk.

01:09:24I mean,

01:09:25it's,

01:09:26you know,

01:09:27passe,

01:09:28but at that time,

01:09:29it's,

01:09:30at the time,

01:09:31we're in the disco era,

01:09:32so they fit in perfectly.

01:09:33So, that brings me

01:09:34to another thing.

01:09:35You,

01:09:36I mean,

01:09:37yes,

01:09:38you did with Mark

01:09:39with the beach

01:09:40and all,

01:09:41great thing.

01:09:42That was the first one.

01:09:43You do a little bit of that

01:09:44rock and roll stuff

01:09:45with the Freebirds,

01:09:46tease it on TV

01:09:47kind of deal.

01:09:48Yeah,

01:09:49yeah,

01:09:50and I also think

01:09:51the other one is,

01:09:52one of the things

01:09:53that I felt

01:09:54that wrestling

01:09:55has done

01:09:56is use

01:09:57bumping out,

01:09:58well,

01:09:59bumping out

01:10:00from a match,

01:10:01you know,

01:10:02going to a commercial.

01:10:03Oh,

01:10:04right, right.

01:10:06If I,

01:10:07if I knew the match,

01:10:08we know the match

01:10:09is going to be

01:10:12Orndorff

01:10:13and Superstar.

01:10:15By October,

01:10:16my bumps

01:10:17would stop being

01:10:19body present.

01:10:20A little promo stuff.

01:10:21Christmas.

01:10:22Yeah.

01:10:23Santa Claus,

01:10:24you know,

01:10:25Santa Claus coming down,

01:10:26whether he jumps

01:10:27the fucking Easter bunny

01:10:28or the pumpkin man

01:10:29and chokes him,

01:10:30it's my holiday,

01:10:31it's my holiday,

01:10:32you know,

01:10:33something like that.

01:10:34You got the muscular guys

01:10:35doing it,

01:10:36you know what I mean?

01:10:37Right.

01:10:38Without exposing

01:10:39who it was

01:10:40and doing it that way.

01:10:41Yeah.

01:10:42But, yeah,

01:10:43I mean,

01:10:44and then,

01:10:45then again,

01:10:46in December,

01:10:47the dog

01:10:48and reed

01:10:49would have to go over

01:10:50because they had,

01:10:51the payback

01:10:52has to be there.

01:10:53You blinded the guy,

01:10:54made fun of him.

01:10:55It was a great angle

01:10:56if you're

01:10:57all familiar with it.

01:10:58They did a wonderful job on it.

01:10:59In,

01:11:00down for Watts?

01:11:01Yeah.

01:11:02Yeah.

01:11:03And they would take the straps

01:11:04in December?

01:11:05Yeah.

01:11:06Yeah.

01:11:07So now,

01:11:08again,

01:11:09if you were doing it

01:11:11and they took the straps

01:11:12in December,

01:11:13hopefully

01:11:16you'd be going

01:11:17to the old

01:11:18Bill Watts territory

01:11:21in January.

01:11:22On the national sweep,

01:11:23go down

01:11:24and take New Orleans

01:11:25and...

01:11:26Yeah.

01:11:27So,

01:11:28you wouldn't need much

01:11:31on that carrot

01:11:32in January.

01:11:33So,

01:11:34not to sell

01:11:37Louisiana,

01:11:38Mississippi,

01:11:39you know,

01:11:40that whole south.

01:11:42There it is.

01:11:43The tag team angle,

01:11:44Atlas and Johnson

01:11:45to the Freebirds,

01:11:46Freebirds to J.Y.D.

01:11:47and Reed

01:11:48into 85.

01:11:49So,

01:11:50with the titles

01:11:51out of the way,

01:11:52the other topic

01:11:53that 1984 brings

01:11:54to light

01:11:55is the national

01:11:56expansion,

01:11:57the territory raiding,

01:11:58as people have called

01:11:59it by Vince McMahon.

01:12:00We've talked about that

01:12:01a little before

01:12:02when you told us

01:12:03who you were going

01:12:04to take

01:12:05from the other territories.

01:12:06But what it really boils down

01:12:07to,

01:12:08we started

01:12:09talking

01:12:10about

01:12:11the

01:12:12New Orleans

01:12:13territory

01:12:14and the

01:12:15Freebirds

01:12:16and the

01:12:17New Orleans

01:12:18territory.

01:12:19What it really boils down to

01:12:20is you've got

01:12:21cable TV now,

01:12:22you've got your product

01:12:23that you're going to book

01:12:24is going to be seen

01:12:25by potentially every fan

01:12:26of every other territory

01:12:27in the country

01:12:28or as far as

01:12:29the cable's reach is.

01:12:30So,

01:12:31the question is

01:12:32do you just go

01:12:33balls to the wall

01:12:34and try to

01:12:35take TV

01:12:36in every territory?

01:12:37Do you do a talent swap

01:12:38like they used to do

01:12:39back in the day?

01:12:40How do you handle it?

01:12:41Go balls to the wall

01:12:42and take everything.

01:12:43And

01:12:44looking back

01:12:45at what he had,

01:12:46again,

01:12:47you know,

01:12:48everything's hindsight

01:12:49and you can say

01:12:50this was a mistake.

01:12:51And I still think

01:12:52this is the same mistake

01:12:53they make today.

01:12:57This industry

01:12:59is driven by television

01:13:01but it's propped up

01:13:02by house shows.

01:13:05There's not

01:13:06enough filming

01:13:07at house shows

01:13:08where people say,

01:13:09and if I was starting

01:13:11in 84,

01:13:12okay,

01:13:14and my

01:13:15product,

01:13:16if I was going

01:13:17into Louisiana,

01:13:20so I've taken

01:13:21The Dog,

01:13:22I've taken Butch,

01:13:23I've taken

01:13:24Doug Enough,

01:13:25I've taken Orndorff,

01:13:26I've gone in there

01:13:27with basically

01:13:28Bill Watts' car

01:13:29repackaged

01:13:30in my thing.

01:13:31I would shoot

01:13:32those matches

01:13:34and replay them

01:13:35on one of my shows

01:13:36so the people

01:13:37of Louisiana say,

01:13:38ooh,

01:13:39did you see me on TV?

01:13:41Boy,

01:13:42those guys

01:13:43were really good.

01:13:44You know what I mean?

01:13:45And the other thing is

01:13:47everything is left

01:13:48for TV and pay-per-view.

01:13:51Can the title

01:13:52switch hands

01:13:53in Providence, Rhode Island?

01:13:55My whole thing

01:13:56used to be,

01:13:57I used to say,

01:13:58even back in the 70s,

01:14:00I used to say,

01:14:01a title

01:14:02should be lost.

01:14:03The world's title

01:14:04should be lost

01:14:05in Paris, France.

01:14:09It's the world's title.

01:14:11It should be lost

01:14:12in Paris, France.

01:14:14Or Madrid

01:14:15or some fucking where

01:14:16besides Madison Square Garden.

01:14:19You know what I mean?

01:14:20That's where they dropped the title.

01:14:22They didn't drop it

01:14:23in Boston Garden.

01:14:24They didn't drop it

01:14:25in Philly Arena.

01:14:27It was Madison Square Garden.

01:14:29It's easy

01:14:30in hindsight,

01:14:31and I said,

01:14:32when you're out in the forest

01:14:33to see the trees,

01:14:35but everything

01:14:36becomes too repetitious.

01:14:39If you went to Providence,

01:14:41Rhode Island,

01:14:42hypothetically,

01:14:44and somebody drops the title,

01:14:48the next time you come back

01:14:49to that building,

01:14:50that building's selling out.

01:14:51But if you show that on TV,

01:14:53and then you have a rematch

01:14:55in Philadelphia,

01:14:56I have a feeling

01:14:58that that building

01:14:59will make the fall.

01:15:01You know,

01:15:02and nowadays

01:15:03with train,

01:15:04plane travel,

01:15:07production costs,

01:15:10they have to make

01:15:12a lot of money

01:15:14because in my head,

01:15:16I can't see

01:15:17how they can exist

01:15:19unless they just go

01:15:20to being a television show

01:15:22completely

01:15:24and not travel at all

01:15:25except on tours

01:15:27like twice a year,

01:15:28Sting goes on tour

01:15:30or the Madonna tour

01:15:31or something.

01:15:32Because, you know,

01:15:35you have to sell out

01:15:3790% of the buildings now

01:15:39to even make the money back.

01:15:41Right, right.

01:15:42So you would take advantage

01:15:44of those locales,

01:15:46like the example you used

01:15:48is Watts, Louisiana.

01:15:50Switch title in Louisiana?

01:15:52Sure.

01:15:53I'd switch the title in Louisiana.

01:15:55Maybe I would switch the title

01:15:58in New Orleans.

01:16:03I'd switch the title in L.A.

01:16:05I would switch the title

01:16:06in Montreal.

01:16:08I would switch the title

01:16:09in Detroit.

01:16:10I would switch the title...

01:16:11I mean, you can switch it anywhere.

01:16:12It doesn't just have to be

01:16:13Madison Square Garden.

01:16:16A tag team title match

01:16:17could be switched someplace.

01:16:19The Intercontinental title

01:16:20can be switched.

01:16:22You could go to Detroit,

01:16:23we'll say,

01:16:25hypothetically.

01:16:26This is still 84.

01:16:28The Sheik is alive.

01:16:31The Sheik doesn't work for me.

01:16:34But I make a deal with him

01:16:35to work Cobo Hall

01:16:38against Dusty Rhodes.

01:16:41There's a history already

01:16:45with Dusty and the Sheik.

01:16:48I come in with my card,

01:16:49but I put Dusty and the Sheik together.

01:16:55The people say,

01:16:56it's something different

01:16:57than the Sheik's card,

01:16:58but the Sheik is still the Sheik.

01:17:01You work a fucking hot angle,

01:17:03you show up back,

01:17:05and then Dusty and the Sheik

01:17:06come back in the strap match,

01:17:09and Detroit is going to come back

01:17:11with that main event

01:17:13where you can go to New Orleans

01:17:17with Orndorff,

01:17:19but Dusty and the Sheik

01:17:21can carry that Cobo Hall

01:17:23for a sellout

01:17:24with maybe not as strong a scout

01:17:25as you need to prop up

01:17:27Paul in New Orleans.

01:17:28So you're using some existing talent

01:17:30in the little pockets in the country

01:17:32to draw them over to your product.

01:17:33Right, right.

01:17:35A really interesting thing

01:17:37that you mentioned,

01:17:38which I guess I really never considered

01:17:40until just now,

01:17:41WWE, for all the reach

01:17:43that they had at that time,

01:17:44and even a couple years after that

01:17:46when they were going into places

01:17:48like Louisiana and Texas,

01:17:53they never took advantage

01:17:57of title switches anywhere

01:18:00but their home base.

01:18:01If fans saw a title switch

01:18:04in their hometown,

01:18:07with some of the people

01:18:08they're familiar with on the card,

01:18:09like you're saying,

01:18:10but a major federation,

01:18:12even if it was one

01:18:13they weren't that familiar with

01:18:14like WWE,

01:18:15a major federation title switch,

01:18:16that immediately gets them

01:18:17back the next month.

01:18:18Right.

01:18:19You never saw that.

01:18:20The title drops,

01:18:21even as Vince was expanding,

01:18:24the title drops only happened

01:18:25in the home base.

01:18:26Right.

01:18:27I never thought about that.

01:18:28That's interesting.

01:18:29Yeah.

01:18:30Talk about television.

01:18:31What would you do with TV?

01:18:32Obviously you need

01:18:33a weekly product.

01:18:34Right.

01:18:35And you've got cable,

01:18:36so you touched on it before,

01:18:37you probably,

01:18:38I would assume,

01:18:39use some of the cable time

01:18:40you have to air house shows

01:18:41from across the country.

01:18:43Yeah, well,

01:18:44if it was possible,

01:18:46and I don't know if it's possible

01:18:48to air, at that time,

01:18:50to air cable shows

01:18:52from house shows

01:18:53across the country,

01:18:54but I would certainly film

01:18:56hot angles and stick them

01:18:58into that cable show.

01:19:00I'd use that cable show, too,

01:19:02where I would take,

01:19:04we'll say an on-off,

01:19:06if I know where I'm going,

01:19:07or an on-off and superstar.

01:19:09Rather than them working,

01:19:11they don't need to work.

01:19:13You need to pay to see them work.

01:19:17They're going to,

01:19:18Billy's going to show you

01:19:19his workout,

01:19:21but on-off's going to say

01:19:22that workout is archaic.

01:19:24Right.

01:19:25You'll show my workout.

01:19:27We're going to show,

01:19:28Paul was a big-time hunter.

01:19:30We're going to go out

01:19:31hunting with Paul.

01:19:32We're going topping fishing

01:19:34with Paul.

01:19:35We're going to the desert

01:19:37with Billy to purify ourselves.

01:19:39We're not going to see them

01:19:40wrestle on TV,

01:19:43but we're going to see them

01:19:45in a bigger-than-life thing.

01:19:47We hook them up

01:19:48and we take things,

01:19:49you know, a premiere.

01:19:51They go out on a red carpet

01:19:52premiere with Goldie Hawn

01:19:55or whoever on their shoulder.

01:19:58We make them,

01:19:59besides a wrestler,

01:20:01a celebrity in bigger-than-life.

01:20:03That's what Hogan was

01:20:05because he came off of the Rockies.

01:20:07Now we have to fill that void.

01:20:10Why only do it with one

01:20:12when you can do it

01:20:13with a few of them?

01:20:15I'm not saying you can do it

01:20:16with everybody,

01:20:17but like I said,

01:20:18on-off did that national commercial.

01:20:21Superstar couldn't do

01:20:22a national commercial?

01:20:23Please.

01:20:25And those guys fit in well.

01:20:30You could have had

01:20:32superstar rapping

01:20:33on any late-night show

01:20:35just going off

01:20:36and arm-wrestling

01:20:37Regis Philbert

01:20:38or something like that.

01:20:40That's rather than

01:20:43overexposing people

01:20:45because,

01:20:48and I said Paul's a great worker

01:20:49and he is,

01:20:51or was.

01:20:53There's only a limited repertoire we have

01:20:57or you start repeating yourself.

01:21:02You're not going to burn the guy out

01:21:04by having him go on TV

01:21:06to what?

01:21:08Squash guy?

01:21:10Or have a match

01:21:11that you're trying to get

01:21:12a baby face over

01:21:13and you're going to tarnish

01:21:14your champion

01:21:15where he puts his foot

01:21:16on the ropes?

01:21:19These are just your top guys

01:21:20you're talking about.

01:21:21Yeah, yeah.

01:21:22These are just my top guys.

01:21:23But what I'm getting back to is

01:21:25we got this holy grail that

01:21:28everybody's fake

01:21:29but on and off in Superstar.

01:21:31Let's keep this

01:21:33hidden.

01:21:34Let's not show it to the public

01:21:36every week.

01:21:37Here's the holy grail.

01:21:38Here's the holy grail.

01:21:39Oh, fuck.

01:21:40They're going to show us

01:21:41the holy grail again this week.

01:21:42Oh, Jesus.

01:21:43You got to pay to see

01:21:44the holy grail.

01:21:45Oh, it must be pretty good.

01:21:46It must be really

01:21:47something that we got to

01:21:48go pay to see.

01:21:49I got to go pay to see it

01:21:50because I know

01:21:51I know there's a holy grail

01:21:52but fuck it.

01:21:53All I see is this fucking guy

01:21:54talking.

01:21:55I got to see him wrestle.

01:21:57You know what I mean?

01:21:58And that's where

01:21:59what has happened to it.

01:22:01How many fucking times

01:22:03and I love Rick Flay to death.

01:22:05147 times

01:22:07World Heavyweight Champion.

01:22:09Woo!

01:22:11Fuck it. Come on, Rick.

01:22:13I love him to death

01:22:14but

01:22:15147 times?

01:22:17You know.

01:22:18It used to be a special thing

01:22:19when Rick was in the Crockett's

01:22:20he'd come out every week

01:22:22he'd do a great five minutes

01:22:25if he was going to be

01:22:26in the ring that night

01:22:27it was usually

01:22:28a run in

01:22:29and somebody ripping

01:22:30his suit off

01:22:31and then you had to go

01:22:32to the Omni tomorrow night.

01:22:33Right.

01:22:34You know what I'm saying?

01:22:35And that's

01:22:36I mean, I've seen

01:22:37Rick Flay

01:22:39in his underwear

01:22:40in the middle of the ring

01:22:41more times than I want to recall

01:22:42but that's what it was about.

01:22:44It was about

01:22:46he didn't have to wrestle.

01:22:50And the horseman premise

01:22:52let's throw that in there

01:22:53because that was about that time.

01:22:55That was Iron Anderson

01:22:56and he never got credit.

01:22:57That was Iron Anderson's idea.

01:22:59That was a great premise

01:23:00because Iron could work.

01:23:02Telly could work.

01:23:04Oli could work.

01:23:06J.J. Dillon was a great mouthpiece.

01:23:10So

01:23:11the entity of the horseman

01:23:13even though Flay wasn't working

01:23:15was getting a win on TV

01:23:16every week.

01:23:17Yeah.

01:23:18And he didn't have to do anything

01:23:19but brag.

01:23:20We did it.

01:23:21Woo.

01:23:22We did it.

01:23:23Woo.

01:23:24We did it.

01:23:25Woo.

01:23:26We did it.

01:23:27Woo.

01:23:28Stop that fucking record for a minute.

01:23:29Okay.

01:23:30I'll hold it down.

01:23:31But you wanted to see him work

01:23:32and you came out the next night.

01:23:33Yeah.

01:23:34Because he

01:23:35he was going to tell you

01:23:36he was a limousine

01:23:37riding jet

01:23:38flying

01:23:39son of a gun

01:23:40and he was going to

01:23:41kick the shit out of the guy

01:23:42the next week

01:23:43and invariably

01:23:44he would cut an interview

01:23:45his veins were sticking out

01:23:46this

01:23:47pull his tie off

01:23:48you know

01:23:49he'd be sweating

01:23:50I mean

01:23:51and that's

01:23:53where

01:23:57when

01:23:58Crocker went nationwide

01:24:01and they went

01:24:02you know nationwide

01:24:03they tried to go nationwide

01:24:04one to

01:24:05one

01:24:06two to two

01:24:07one to one

01:24:08head to head

01:24:09they started dropping the titles too much.

01:24:11Ronnie Gavin was a great contender

01:24:15who wasn't a world champion.

01:24:17Tarnished the belt.

01:24:19And I'd be

01:24:20no disrespect to him

01:24:22if I had won the world heavyweight title

01:24:24it would have tarnished the belt.

01:24:32When

01:24:36that

01:24:37that

01:24:38that thing that we're getting back to is

01:24:39we're going to try to keep this

01:24:41tarnish free

01:24:42because eventually

01:24:44down the line

01:24:45down the line

01:24:46you're going to have to say

01:24:47when business

01:24:48starts to fall

01:24:50you're going to have to say

01:24:51well

01:24:52you know the grill maybe can take a nick

01:24:54you know we can nick it one time

01:24:57you're going to have to nick it

01:24:58you know one time

01:24:59it's like

01:25:00but you got to keep that

01:25:01yeah

01:25:02you got to keep that

01:25:03you got to keep it

01:25:04you don't want to expose it all

01:25:05all at one time

01:25:06you know what I mean

01:25:07yeah

01:25:08and that's

01:25:09that's what I

01:25:10you know

01:25:11going back

01:25:12in 84

01:25:13you know

01:25:14I would have done

01:25:15exactly what you said

01:25:16switching titles in different places already

01:25:19the arenas

01:25:20and the other thing was

01:25:22rather than

01:25:25if I went in with

01:25:26Williams

01:25:27Duggan

01:25:28Reid

01:25:29Dogg and Orndorff

01:25:30maybe I'd have

01:25:31Williams against

01:25:32Orndorff

01:25:33but Duggan would be against somebody else

01:25:35and they'd have a hell of a match

01:25:37so the guy would get exposed

01:25:39that had never been exposed in Louisiana

01:25:41and I would shoot that angle

01:25:43with Duggan

01:25:44in that guy

01:25:45and show it back

01:25:46rather than

01:25:47Williams and Orndorff

01:25:48because they've seen it a thousand times

01:25:49right

01:25:50so they say

01:25:51oh shit that happened in our town

01:25:53hmm

01:25:54well yeah

01:25:55I mean TV

01:25:56and everyone can take a lesson from this

01:25:57that

01:25:58TV is

01:25:59is the life blood of your business

01:26:01and the wrestling business

01:26:02and certainly in 84 it was

01:26:04it was unheard of to

01:26:06to do anything without television

01:26:08and that's the national expansion

01:26:13OK

01:26:23OK

01:26:24so we've heard about the heavyweight title

01:26:26the IC title

01:26:27tag titles

01:26:28now

01:26:29let's talk to you

01:26:30some of the other guys

01:26:31on the roster

01:26:32what do we do with them

01:26:33for the year 1984

01:26:34WWE

01:26:35OK

01:26:36again I said that

01:26:37you have

01:26:38Barry Windham

01:26:39one of the

01:26:40premier babyfaces

01:26:41of all times

01:26:44bled

01:26:45could do anything

01:26:47so

01:26:48you need to do something with Barry

01:26:51and a guy we didn't mention

01:26:53is Rick Roode

01:26:56Roode and Barry

01:26:58go together

01:26:59like a glove

01:27:00hand in a glove

01:27:02that

01:27:03two good looking guys

01:27:05two athletic guys

01:27:13so

01:27:16I would

01:27:18off the top of my head

01:27:21if we had

01:27:22what we have now

01:27:23is we put our

01:27:24main guys in

01:27:26in place

01:27:27and we want

01:27:28Roode

01:27:29and Windham

01:27:30to go to the

01:27:31second or third show

01:27:32is be the main event

01:27:34and they're gonna move up the ladder

01:27:36they're gonna be

01:27:37for the following year

01:27:39so

01:27:40we're gonna steal

01:27:42almost the Andre

01:27:44Hogan

01:27:45angle

01:27:47most

01:27:48improved

01:27:49to the most popular

01:27:50or the

01:27:52for these two

01:27:53it'd be

01:27:54the most handsome

01:27:57the girls vote

01:27:58who's the most handsome wrestler

01:28:01and you get the girls voting

01:28:03and you charge them to vote

01:28:06right

01:28:07we have a number you call in

01:28:10so

01:28:12we know

01:28:14that Barry's gonna win

01:28:16because he's the baby face

01:28:18so when Barry gets

01:28:20the trophy that night

01:28:21Roode comes out

01:28:22and what does he do

01:28:23but whack that handsome pretty boy in the face

01:28:26who goes down

01:28:27a pile of blood

01:28:28and he puts the boots to him

01:28:30and Roode walks off

01:28:32with the trophy

01:28:34now it's Roode's trophy

01:28:36because he feels that he's the real winner

01:28:39and our angle is the trophy

01:28:43and

01:28:44we can end up with

01:28:47and I hate to use this

01:28:49but you could end up with

01:28:51the trophy on the pole match

01:28:53I worked with his father

01:28:55Hangman Newsome

01:28:57you know how ridiculous was that

01:28:59I hang someone's gonna get hung

01:29:01and of course it was me

01:29:03every time I have two and I'm 0 for 2

01:29:06I think I better quit that match

01:29:08but anyway

01:29:09you have to

01:29:10who was

01:29:11Dusty

01:29:12oh Dusty that's right

01:29:13I was bleeding so bad

01:29:15my feet slipped off the turnbuckle

01:29:17I actually hung myself

01:29:18and I was gushing out

01:29:20and then

01:29:21Mulligan and I

01:29:22was in the orange bowl

01:29:24but

01:29:25so

01:29:26we would end up with

01:29:27Roode

01:29:28and Windham

01:29:29in December

01:29:32with that loaded card

01:29:35and the pole

01:29:37I can start writing these down

01:29:39we have a full card there in December

01:29:41so we're gonna do the blow off for Roode

01:29:45Windham

01:29:48so how do you sustain

01:29:51an angle like that

01:29:52you've got the initial

01:29:53you know the initial thing happens in

01:29:55I'll pick an arbitrary month

01:29:57with the voting

01:29:58the lead up is the voting

01:30:00then you've got the start of the angle

01:30:02which is the ceremony when he turns

01:30:04not turns on but he whacks him with the thing

01:30:06takes it off

01:30:07now you've got a few months

01:30:08you've got to build it up

01:30:09you've got to get it hot

01:30:10you've got to use your TV

01:30:13but not

01:30:14but not have a blow off

01:30:15right

01:30:16what's the psychology there

01:30:17the psychology is

01:30:18in my head

01:30:21things should start at A

01:30:24and go A B C

01:30:27things shouldn't start at V

01:30:29and go back to Q

01:30:31and go up to B

01:30:32and then around

01:30:33there's gotta be a follow through

01:30:35and people

01:30:37sometimes say to me

01:30:39well that's too long

01:30:40it's not too long

01:30:42because the guiding light

01:30:43and days of our lives

01:30:44have been on forever

01:30:46right

01:30:49so

01:30:50if

01:30:51Roode and Windham

01:30:53are being put over

01:30:54for January, February, March

01:30:57we know May is gonna be a slack month

01:30:59so we start the voting

01:31:01in April and May

01:31:04and in June

01:31:09in June

01:31:12we shoot the angle

01:31:15okay

01:31:16we can keep this angle going

01:31:18right through to December

01:31:20I mean there's

01:31:21you know

01:31:22we can have all kinds of matches

01:31:24where Roode

01:31:26will maybe lose the match

01:31:28but he lays Barry out

01:31:30and walks off with the thing

01:31:32and at the end of December

01:31:34besides

01:31:37this

01:31:39on the poll

01:31:40the trophy or whatever

01:31:41on the poll

01:31:44the winner

01:31:46is gonna get a date with

01:31:49you tell me who

01:31:50the star of the time

01:31:5184

01:31:53Pamela Anderson

01:31:54whoever it was in 84

01:31:56yeah

01:31:57Madonna

01:31:58yeah Madonna

01:31:59Madonna

01:32:00somebody

01:32:01but she's gonna be there in the audience

01:32:03so

01:32:04you got another

01:32:08exposing

01:32:09a lower card

01:32:12in publicity

01:32:13and the people are gonna wanna get

01:32:15caught into it

01:32:17so

01:32:18right away

01:32:19and then again

01:32:21Roode and Windham can work

01:32:22so

01:32:23we have a great match

01:32:26Roode and Windham

01:32:28a great match with Steamboat

01:32:31in Morocco

01:32:33and a great

01:32:35poster

01:32:36of Superstar and Orndorff

01:32:39so we've protected our main event

01:32:41because

01:32:42they don't have to go too long

01:32:44because these guys are gonna put the time in for us

01:32:47and then we have the angle

01:32:49with the junkyard dog

01:32:50right

01:32:52we have the Freebirds

01:32:53losing the title

01:32:56so we're gonna see a title be lost

01:32:59we're gonna see the junkyard

01:33:01return

01:33:02junkyard dog return

01:33:03from being blinded

01:33:04we're gonna see

01:33:05some kind of celebrity

01:33:07we're gonna see Windham go over

01:33:10we're gonna

01:33:11see

01:33:14and then we're gonna see a

01:33:17a great card

01:33:19and we're gonna get a blow off with

01:33:20two of the best bodies in wrestling

01:33:22and they'll talk

01:33:23people into the building

01:33:26Roode and Windham

01:33:27angle number one

01:33:30music

01:33:43knowing we're going to the garden

01:33:46and we have a

01:33:47hispanic television program

01:33:50we need to put

01:33:51Java on there

01:33:53so who does

01:34:00travel match up with

01:34:01to me

01:34:02the best of all

01:34:04again travel could work at that time

01:34:07probably still can work

01:34:08they can work

01:34:09unbelievable at that time

01:34:12mr. perfect

01:34:13is the guy

01:34:19and

01:34:22mr. perfect

01:34:24we do

01:34:25I believe in doing things subtly

01:34:31I believe in doing things subtly

01:34:35if

01:34:36you were going to build an Aryan race

01:34:40was perfect the Aryan race

01:34:42was Kurt Henning the Aryan race

01:34:45well I have blue eyes

01:34:46looks like it doesn't it

01:34:49you got to dance around the issue

01:34:50but we can do it

01:34:51and back then

01:34:53you know our borders weren't open

01:34:55as much as they are today

01:34:59so that's a hell of a lot of heat

01:35:00for that he's going to get

01:35:01I guess he's going to come out

01:35:03and then job was going to

01:35:04eventually go over in the show

01:35:06right

01:35:07but child was going to

01:35:08take an ass whipping

01:35:10and get

01:35:12the one thing Latino males hate

01:35:14is that machismo

01:35:15taken away from

01:35:17he's going to get taken away from

01:35:18was shoved up his ass

01:35:20pretty good

01:35:21by Kurt

01:35:22but on the blow off

01:35:23he's going to go over

01:35:25so all

01:35:26all this card is

01:35:27that we've done is

01:35:28we've got a lot of heat

01:35:30but on the

01:35:32December show

01:35:33we built heat for a year

01:35:35the people are going to go away

01:35:37feeling satisfied

01:35:39because they're finally

01:35:40going to get the payoff

01:35:41you know one of the arts of

01:35:43booking a big show

01:35:45today would be a pay-per-view

01:35:46our hypothetical example

01:35:48is just a big local show

01:35:51is how to not leave

01:35:53the shelf empty

01:35:56for the following week

01:35:59you have a bunch of blow offs

01:36:01but you've got to do something

01:36:03to keep people coming back

01:36:04the following week

01:36:05right

01:36:06right

01:36:07but the way you're going to

01:36:08keep the people coming back

01:36:09the following week is

01:36:12he'll keep their belt

01:36:14on or off

01:36:16so

01:36:17the ship is going in the same direction

01:36:19but the heel is still leading the company

01:36:21gotcha

01:36:22so

01:36:23now we just need to rearrange

01:36:25now we've got

01:36:26Wyndham

01:36:28who did a job

01:36:29on the first Madison Square Garden show

01:36:32winning on a blow off show

01:36:33against Rood

01:36:34who now would be in position

01:36:36to work at Anglewood

01:36:37for enough

01:36:38gotcha

01:36:39who bloodied him

01:36:40months before

01:36:41yeah

01:36:42so I mean

01:36:44we've got people in pretty good positions

01:36:46and the thing with Chavo

01:36:47the Chavo thing is

01:36:49if you don't

01:36:50understand

01:36:51the Latino audience

01:36:53and how big it is

01:36:54you're missing

01:36:55the fastest growing nationality

01:36:57in this country

01:37:00so how does

01:37:01so how does Henning come out

01:37:02how does it start

01:37:03how does it

01:37:04the race angle

01:37:05how do you

01:37:06how would you do something like that

01:37:07people say well

01:37:08you know they say

01:37:10they hate race issues

01:37:12I hate race issues

01:37:14myself

01:37:15when it's black and white

01:37:17but national issues

01:37:20they've been fighting in Europe

01:37:21over for centuries

01:37:22the nationalities

01:37:24nationalities

01:37:25you can be okay with

01:37:27Chavo could come down

01:37:29and this is 84

01:37:30so that he would be

01:37:31some kind of

01:37:32Mexican music

01:37:34and it's almost

01:37:35going back to

01:37:36raps

01:37:37is crap

01:37:38when Henning did

01:37:39the rap is crap

01:37:40right

01:37:41it was a redneck

01:37:42you almost bring it up

01:37:43go back in time

01:37:45he's playing

01:37:46the Mexican music

01:37:48and all of a sudden

01:37:49Henning's

01:37:50bitching about it

01:37:51bitching about it

01:37:53and the first

01:37:54he bitches about it

01:37:55for a few weeks

01:37:56then the

01:37:57third week

01:37:58or fourth week

01:37:59or however long

01:38:00you can pull it off

01:38:01by getting Chavo over to

01:38:02confrontational

01:38:03Henning backs down

01:38:04like a heel

01:38:05some heel should

01:38:06and Henning would be

01:38:07the heel to back down

01:38:08he goes in the truck

01:38:10and puts on his music

01:38:11halfway through

01:38:12when Chavo's

01:38:13walking down the aisle

01:38:14to a real

01:38:15you know

01:38:17maybe a goose stepping tune

01:38:18I don't know

01:38:19right

01:38:20or something real shit kickery

01:38:21yeah

01:38:23so we build it that way

01:38:24and you can't

01:38:25just

01:38:26load

01:38:27every match

01:38:29because it's going to

01:38:30take away from

01:38:31some of them

01:38:32but given that enough

01:38:34of an oomph

01:38:36now you've got

01:38:38one

01:38:39two

01:38:40three

01:38:41four

01:38:42five matches

01:38:43that mean something

01:38:45your next

01:38:46three matches

01:38:47should be exposing

01:38:48new people

01:38:49that you want to go with

01:38:50and getting

01:38:51those three over

01:38:53and

01:38:54right in the middle

01:38:55finishes

01:38:56with somebody

01:38:57that you've used

01:38:58during the year

01:39:00well

01:39:01we haven't talked

01:39:02about Dusty

01:39:04so

01:39:05Dusty could be used

01:39:06in a capacity

01:39:10for this card

01:39:12or any

01:39:13Dusty could be used

01:39:14on a

01:39:16on an angle

01:39:17that would be a built in angle

01:39:21we could turn

01:39:22and I don't believe in

01:39:23turning guys

01:39:24all the time

01:39:26but you could turn

01:39:27Black Jack Mulligan

01:39:28and Dusty against one another

01:39:31off of a

01:39:32Barry Wyndham

01:39:33thing

01:39:34and what ends up is

01:39:35you have two great

01:39:36interviewers working

01:39:38and on that

01:39:39on this

01:39:40December show

01:39:42it's a Texas

01:39:43death match

01:39:44where are they both from?

01:39:46Texas, yeah

01:39:47okay

01:39:48they're both gonna talk you

01:39:49people into the building

01:39:50take Mama from the kitchen

01:39:52you know

01:39:53American Dream

01:39:54you know

01:39:55kick his ass

01:39:56so okay

01:39:57so now you've got

01:39:58that match

01:39:59and then

01:40:00what you do in the

01:40:01opening match

01:40:02is what I said

01:40:03from the beginning

01:40:04you take your

01:40:05best two pieces

01:40:06of talent

01:40:07left

01:40:08and use them

01:40:11so

01:40:14who would you open

01:40:15that card with?

01:40:16that December card

01:40:17so I would take

01:40:22Orton and Slater

01:40:24against the

01:40:25fabulous ones

01:40:35and that would be

01:40:36the next

01:40:38so now I'd only need

01:40:39one more match

01:40:41to

01:40:45to round out that card

01:40:49and maybe

01:40:51just for glitz

01:40:52and glamour

01:40:55I'd have a

01:40:57six man tag match

01:41:01of David

01:41:02Kerry

01:41:04and Kevin

01:41:05Von Erck

01:41:09I wouldn't put it first

01:41:10of course

01:41:12against heels

01:41:13that are gonna make

01:41:14them look good

01:41:16Saito

01:41:17Koloff

01:41:19they're all

01:41:20this is all American

01:41:21boys against

01:41:22foreigner gimmick

01:41:23the foreigners

01:41:24and

01:41:26I guess

01:41:30was

01:41:31the Russian still there?

01:41:33oh the Sheik

01:41:35that's true

01:41:36the Sheik

01:41:40you could throw a missing link in there too

01:41:41who knows where the hell he's from

01:41:43so that gives us

01:41:44our seven matches

01:41:45so our

01:41:46December card

01:41:47ends up being

01:41:48as you can see

01:41:49in my chicken scratch

01:41:51up top

01:41:52the title for title

01:41:53IC and heavyweight

01:41:54Orndorff Graham

01:41:56fabulous ones

01:41:57JYD and Reid

01:41:58I'm sorry

01:41:59Freebirds

01:42:00coming off the blinding angle

01:42:01with JYD

01:42:03Steamboat in Morocco

01:42:05Ruud and Windham

01:42:07from the vote

01:42:10Chavo and Hennig

01:42:11working a

01:42:13nationality angle

01:42:15Dusty and Mogan

01:42:16splitting and going

01:42:17against each other

01:42:19hot tag match

01:42:20with

01:42:21Orton and Slater

01:42:22fabulous ones

01:42:23and then a six man

01:42:24with the Von Erich boys

01:42:25against

01:42:26some foreigners

01:42:27I'd pay to see it

01:42:30thanks

01:42:31thank you

01:42:32appreciate it

01:42:33that's 1984 in the WWE

01:42:35if they hired Kevin

01:42:39I'd pay to see it

01:42:40thank you

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