We’re once again trying out a couple of our favorite new show formats. In Version History, we talk through the whole story of Quibi, from its early days as NewTV to its extremely ill-timed launch to its ultimate demise. Next, we try out our as-yet-untitled debate show. The Verge’s Kevin Nguyen and Alex Cranz take on a surprisingly contentious topic: is the future of books print or digital? Later, producer Andru Marino answers a question from The Vergecast Hotline about a very unusual shopping situation for MP3 players.
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TechTranscript
00:00:00Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of whatever the future of the Kindle turns out to be.
00:00:04I'm your friend David Pierce, and I am still on vacation. This is the second week that I am out.
00:00:10Right now, if you're hearing this on Tuesday, I am probably with my parents in upstate Connecticut,
00:00:17just hanging out. I'm probably on an inner tube in a lake, as everyone should be at some point
00:00:23this summer. Anyway, while I'm gone, we've been doing this little mini pilot season. I hope you
00:00:28enjoyed last week. We talked about Roku and we talked about CarPlay, trying out some new formats
00:00:33and structures for the show. And we're going to do something similar today. We have two more versions
00:00:38of those same shows. We figured instead of just doing one pilot, we'd try it twice. We'd get to
00:00:42learn a lot about how it went. Maybe we'd be better at it the second time. Maybe you'd be
00:00:47more familiar. We'd love to hear your thoughts. We're going to try it again. This time we're
00:00:50going to talk about Roku and we're going to talk about eBooks. Both super fun, very excited for
00:00:55you to hear them both. And as I mentioned before, we really, really want to hear your feedback. I
00:00:59want to know everything you think about these formats, about these shows, about whether you'd
00:01:03like to hear more of them, about whether you hope we never ever do them again. All of it. We've been
00:01:08experimenting with this stuff. We always like trying new formats and new ideas, but we also love
00:01:12what this show is and we don't want to change it just for the sake of changing it. So tell us
00:01:17everything you think about the show, about the formats, about the stuff that we're covering in
00:01:21particular. If you have ideas for what you want to see us do on either of those shows and segments,
00:01:26please let us know. Vergecasts at theverge.com, call the hotline 866-VERGE11. We want to hear
00:01:31everything. All right. Two more pilots. Let's go. This is the Vergecasts. We'll be right back.
00:01:38Welcome back. All right. First up today is the second pilot of our rewatch show that we're
00:01:44calling Version History. So if you didn't listen last week, basically the thing we've been thinking
00:01:48about for a long time is what a tech rewatch show might look like. If you've ever listened to those
00:01:54shows like Office Ladies or West Wing Weekly or, I don't know, any of the million other shows where
00:02:02typically people who were on the show go through the show episode by episode and talk about the
00:02:07behind the scenes stories and what they remember from filming and what they think about that
00:02:12episode now. It's a good way to sort of relive a thing that you liked, but also learn new things
00:02:18about it. And we've been trying to figure out a way to do that with tech. There's so many old
00:02:22gadgets and so many old apps and so many interesting stories baked into these sort of moments in tech
00:02:28history. And we've been trying to figure out what is a fun way to go back through a lot of that
00:02:32stuff, talk about where we were, how we got to where we are now, what still matters, the legacy
00:02:37of all these things and all of that. So we kind of cobbled together a show based on all of the
00:02:44different stuff that we liked from all the other rewatch podcasts. And like I said, we've been
00:02:47calling it version history. Last week, we talked about the Roku Netflix player, which was very fun.
00:02:52And this week we are talking about, I would say, a wilder story that either is more important or
00:02:59less important to the world, depending on how you look at it. That's right. It's time to talk about
00:03:04Quibi. Big stories told in six to 10 minute episodes or Quibis. Neelai Patel, hello.
00:03:16Alex Krantz, hello. Howdy, y'all. Coming off the smashing success of our first
00:03:22version history pilot last week. I don't know. People might have hated it. I'm on vacation.
00:03:26We'll figure it out when I get back. We're going to do this again. This time with what I would say
00:03:30is everyone's favorite streaming service of all time. It's called Quibi. And again, just a quick
00:03:34reminder, the way that we're structuring this, we're going to do kind of a brief history lesson.
00:03:39This one's going to be fun because it's very recent and we all were journalists through the
00:03:43whole run of this. So I think we all covered this in different ways. Then we're going to talk about
00:03:47reviews and how it was perceived in both as a product and a cultural thing. And then we have
00:03:52some questions we're going to answer about what it was and its legacy in the future. And then at
00:03:56the end, we're going to decide if it belongs in the version history hall of fame. All of the
00:04:00prerequisites for which we have not yet decided. It's going to be great. Alex, I feel like you
00:04:06should do the Quibi history. This is near and dear to your heart in a way that I find very mysterious
00:04:11and strange. So can you tell us the story of Quibi as we go here? I can, I can. Because once
00:04:16upon a time, there was a man named Jeffrey Katzenberg and he was one of the most powerful
00:04:21men in Hollywood. He still is in 2024, one of the most powerful men in Hollywood, creator of Dreamworks,
00:04:28which was a major studio. And he wanted to get in on streaming because at this point, this is 2018,
00:04:35we know that NBC's got something in the works. We know Disney's got something in the works. We know
00:04:40HBO, Warner Brothers, AT&T, whatever that mess is, is planning something. Apple's planning
00:04:47something. Everybody is planning a streaming service. And Jeff was like, yeah, I want to do
00:04:52that too. But he knows that it can't just be any streaming service. He knows that he needs to do
00:04:57something different to complete with Netflix. And it's not just make good content. So he thinks
00:05:03of something, he calls it DoTV originally back in 2018, probably a significantly better name than
00:05:09Quibi. He goes, he gets a lot of funding. He raises over a billion dollars, $1.75 billion.
00:05:16Just pulling in the money, he starts picking a bad inventory. I mean, he's really, he's doing
00:05:20good things, but he still has to make a product and release a product.
00:05:25Can I tell a story about this time?
00:05:27Yes.
00:05:27Please.
00:05:28So I went to a fancy dinner at a code conference around this time,
00:05:33and I was sitting in just the most unusual group of people. It was the founder of Soylent
00:05:38and another guy, me, and Katz. And Katz was like, I'm thinking about this thing. And he
00:05:45explained what would be, and I will tell you, my reaction was like, oh no.
00:05:51And I think I might've said, you know, YouTube exists. Continue on.
00:05:55It's true.
00:05:56Yeah, YouTube exists is a useful frame for all of what's about to come.
00:05:59But, you know, YouTube was made by the tech people. And what Jeff wanted to do was make
00:06:04something for the rest of, for like Hollywood, right? Like that was his big deal was he knew
00:06:08Hollywood in a way that Netflix and YouTube and everybody else didn't. And so he goes and he gets
00:06:13someone who also knows Hollywood, famous Hollywood exec. Sure, right? Meg Whitman,
00:06:19everybody knows her as a Hollywood exec.
00:06:22Uh-huh. HP and eBay, really two Hollywood-y companies.
00:06:24Yeah, yeah.
00:06:26If I had to name two.
00:06:27He goes and gets Meg, largely because he does need someone in tech. He needs somebody who
00:06:30understands tech. So he goes and he gets Meg and he's like, do you want to be my CEO with me?
00:06:35We'll do it together. And she's like, hell yes. And I want to be a fly on the wall in that
00:06:40particular coffee meeting, right? Like that's a dream of mine. Jeff, Meg, call me with the
00:06:45recordings. I want to listen to them. Anyway, so they come together and they decide to release
00:06:50this product. And then we're all at CES in 2020. And we know this is coming. We know it's called
00:06:56Quibi. We know they are spending a ton, like a billion dollars on content. And they've got
00:07:03what? Steven Spielberg. They've got Catherine Hardwicke. They've got all these big actors
00:07:09and actresses. Everybody's working on Quibi stuff. And there's some energy around it.
00:07:15I'm just going to use the word energy because I don't think any adjective can describe it.
00:07:20Wait, can I also color in the energy for you?
00:07:22Yes.
00:07:23So before the CES unveil, which I know Alex will talk about, they had briefings. Hollywood,
00:07:29like a normal company comes to the verge and like, we'd like to tell you about our product
00:07:32on our embargo so you can write about it. And we're like, great, here's one reporter.
00:07:34They demanded everyone. They're like, all of you come.
00:07:38Seriously?
00:07:39Like Casey Newton, who was writing the interface about platforms and democracy,
00:07:45was like, I'm going to the Quibi briefing. And I was like, why? And he was like, I'm just excited
00:07:52to see someone talk about building a platform with this much ambition and this much money.
00:07:57And I will never forget, he came out of the briefing and he was like, the only thing I got
00:08:03was that they are spending more per minute of video by like 1,000 than any other platform
00:08:08has ever thought of. They're like, here's what you do. You open this app and you watch video.
00:08:12On YouTube, they get the videos for free from other people. No, no, no, that's not what we're
00:08:16doing. We've taken the fanciest directors from Hollywood and paid them millions of dollars
00:08:20per minute of video. And I was like, that, and how are you going to monetize? And they're like,
00:08:24ads. And I'm like, the same ads? And they're like, yes.
00:08:27It was a beautiful moment.
00:08:28Yeah. They very proudly talked about how they were spending Game of Thrones level money
00:08:33on like everything that they were doing. And it's like, well, no, there's a reason it's Game of
00:08:38Thrones. And you're making one about like haunted house flippers at Game of Thrones budget.
00:08:44It was very good. The whole thing was incredible. But that was before CS,
00:08:49they were getting the feedback before CS were like, so the dollars in are big and then the
00:08:54dollars out are small. What's your plan? And they'd be like, quality.
00:08:58And I kind of, it makes sense. We'll get into it, but it makes sense, right? YouTube is basically
00:09:04cable access TV. And they're like, what if we put actual, not like actual producers and people who
00:09:10know how to make entertainment on this instead of everybody just experimenting. Certainly a thing,
00:09:17maybe 10 years too late. Anyway, so they decided to announce Quibi. They have this big event at
00:09:23CES. I know we all got invited. We all went and did the briefings. I sat there with Meg Whitman,
00:09:28had a document in front of her with my name on it, my photo, and a whole bunch of information
00:09:33about me. And she just, cause I guess they get that, right? Like their CEO, it's the normal
00:09:38way they get prepped. She just power move, just left it sitting right between us so I could see
00:09:44it. Oh my God. That's so good.
00:09:46Jeffrey Katzenberg just pacing in the room.
00:09:48You were at Giz then?
00:09:49I was at Giz and came out and we had the one briefing with Jeff and Meg. And then we had
00:09:56another briefing with the CTO and the CPO, the chief product officer and the chief technology
00:10:00officer. And one meeting with like a bunch of the actors and filmmakers. And Catherine Hardwick was
00:10:06like, I just want to like take control of people's phones so they can see everything I make. And I
00:10:12was like, yeah, me too. I didn't say that, but I thought it real hard.
00:10:16We also did this gauntlet. I did it with Ashley Carmen and we rewrote our entire,
00:10:22like we had, we thought there was a story and we had been like working on it cause we'd already
00:10:26had these briefings and we threw the whole thing out after we met with Katzenberg. Like we got
00:10:31to start over. You just know at that moment it was going to be a bomb. Yeah. I don't,
00:10:37you can read that story. Yes. The answer is yes. But like it was also just, the man is very
00:10:44charming. Yes. He was terrifying and quiet in my interview with him. Oh yeah. With us, it was a
00:10:52full, I've encountered Katzenberg several times. I actually just did an event about digital,
00:10:58like digital parenting at one of the companies he's invested in and he was there. And you know,
00:11:03he's very charming, but this was like full sales pitch Katzenberg. And you were like,
00:11:09this man thinks his energy can overcome reality. It was just like one of the most that we just
00:11:16started our whole story over. We're like this whole, the actual technology has nothing to do
00:11:21with this product. He definitely approached it differently with the Gizmodo crew.
00:11:26I mean, and you can argue that the thesis of his energy can overcome reality is the whole
00:11:31thesis of Quibi. It was basically like, this thing is probably too late. It's very specific.
00:11:38It's doing kind of a weird thing that seems to be running against everything the culture is doing,
00:11:43but Jeffrey Katzenberg, like that was how this thing was covered at the beginning. Right. It
00:11:46was like, Jeffrey Katzenberg doesn't screw up. He will, he will do it. Yeah. Don't bet against
00:11:50Jeffrey. Yeah. Over and over and over. Yeah. Everybody assumed he was going to do it and
00:11:56they bring it out and they knew they, it was clear that they knew content alone.
00:12:00Was it going to win this? Right. They knew we're late to this. We have a lot of content,
00:12:04but that alone, isn't going to win it because eventually there'd be the show about the lady
00:12:07with a golden arm. And that was a terrible show. Anyway, by the way, our headline was
00:12:12Quibi versus the world. That's where we, we came out and we were like, okay, this is actually what
00:12:17we're hearing. They did one thing. Their, their big thing, the big technological innovation here
00:12:21was that it would basically deliver two streams at the same time. And you'd see,
00:12:26and you'd see a stream depending on how you turned your phone. So you'd either see it in profile or
00:12:31you'd see it in landscape. Those are the only two ways to watch it. And it would change depending
00:12:35on it. And some of the filmmakers were really, really excited about this. Other filmmakers
00:12:39gave two shits and didn't do anything with the format, but most of them did do it. And,
00:12:45and it was like, I want to say kind of impressive technology. The technology itself
00:12:49was impressive. Then they finally launched it during COVID when everyone was at their home.
00:12:55Can I just remind everyone that the, the, the rotate your phone technology
00:12:59turntable or what it was a turn style. It was called turn style with a Y
00:13:03yep. Like wild style. Yeah, but wait, but you just glossed over a thing. That's very important. So
00:13:13CES 2020 happens. Yes. Quibi launches April 6th, 2020 between those two things. What
00:13:21relatively important world event would you say happened? Um, somewhere right in the middle,
00:13:26TikTok birds of prey, the movie came out and it was really, really good, but also,
00:13:33yeah. Um, COVID, which probably a lot of us interacted with at that CES then started
00:13:39interacting with a whole lot of other people and, and we had a worldwide pandemic and this device,
00:13:45you know, Quibi was made to be for you on the go. It was the whole pitch was, yeah,
00:13:49you watch a little bit on your way to work. You watch a little bit on your lunch break while
00:13:53you're at work. You watch a little bit on the train, on the way home from work.
00:13:57The assumption is that you would be doing a lot of traveling in that time to and from places
00:14:02that didn't happen because we were all at home because of lockdown because of COVID
00:14:07and this product, which was already late, was charging $4.99 with ads, $7.99 without,
00:14:13unless you were a T-Mobile customer, in which case you got it for free for a brief period of time,
00:14:20but you had to be a T-Mobile customer. That's a choice you can make. It is. And it was just like
00:14:26the minute it launched, it was like, well, no, this isn't going to succeed. The whole reason
00:14:30this exists. Katz's argument was that everyone was at home and he'd made a product for watching
00:14:36on the train. Yeah. And so then he scrambled, he panicked and was like, well, we need to now
00:14:40release some sort of like for the TV version of this app that is very dependent on your phone
00:14:47and how you rotate your phone to get the scenes. And that was a real challenge. And then he was
00:14:52doing some really wild stuff to get people in the office and get people working on it and thinking
00:14:58about it at Quibi itself. Do you remember that? No. What was going on? They were just really
00:15:03trying to entice people into work. And he was, as Nilay said, like he was really just using the
00:15:08force of being Jeffrey Katzenberg to get people to try to make this succeed. He was like, no,
00:15:13everything is totally fine. Yeah. We're just going through a little blip. It'll be okay. We just need
00:15:18to keep going. We've got all this content. We're working on an app that we're going to release
00:15:22so that people can watch it in their homes. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine.
00:15:27It wasn't fine. Spoiler alert, not fine. Wait, real quick. The one, I think, important piece
00:15:34of Quibi history that you missed so far, Krantz, is the Super Bowl commercial. This is just like
00:15:38not even in my brain. Can I play you the entirety of the Super Bowl commercial? Yes. I would like
00:15:43to play it for you. Where's the car? Frank, where are you? I'll be there in a Quibi. A Quibi. Less
00:15:56than 10 minutes. Quibi. That's it. That's the whole Super Bowl commercial. Nowhere in there
00:16:18does it say, we made a streaming service. Nowhere in it does it say, here is what we're doing.
00:16:23But you do learn that a Quibi is a quick bite and a quick bite is less than 10 minutes. And that
00:16:28is apparently very important. That was a Super Bowl commercial. What a time to be alive. I made
00:16:34the joke about TikTok earlier, but it is also true that the thing that happened in the pandemic
00:16:40was people just started opening TikTok all day, all night because it was free. You got quick
00:16:46bursts of content. You could just scroll right on by. A lot of the ideas that were in Quibi,
00:16:51that led to Quibi, were right there in TikTok. They are the same ideas. People are going to
00:16:56watch video on their phone. We should make it super easy. The videos should ideally be as short
00:17:00as possible. The difference is Quibi was paying the people. I dug up the quote. I have it from
00:17:06Jeffrey Katzenberg. They're making content at $100 a minute. We're making content at $100,000 a
00:17:13minute. And he says that like it's a good thing. This was his winning argument in our briefing.
00:17:19The reaction in Hollywood to this was really, really weird at that time,
00:17:22because a lot of the filmmakers and stuff felt that this was him trying to get around
00:17:27by breaking up the films and all the footage into these short bites,
00:17:30get around paying the actual rates. Right, get around the union fees. And then he's like,
00:17:35I'm spending literally $10,000 more, or like $100,000 more than everybody else. Weird,
00:17:41just weird. I'm just saying the money in, money out was like a real. The way that Quibi ended
00:17:47is still like the part that really gets me because he announces that like, yeah,
00:17:51they're about to be layoffs. It tells the employees that they play a song from the movie Trolls.
00:17:58Yes. Called Get Back Up Again. And he's like, this will make you all feel better.
00:18:03Oh my God. And it did. Yeah. And now Quibi is the largest streaming service in America.
00:18:09Thank you, Trolls. No, I just want to, before we get to the actual end,
00:18:15the part where their technical ideas and their user interface and user behavior ideas were correct
00:18:23is actually stunning. Yeah. They were right about people are going to watch a lot of video
00:18:27on their phones and we should make it shorter and more vertical. And maybe they needed to trick
00:18:34Hollywood into making vertical video by doing turnstile. But like they were correct about what
00:18:39was about to happen to video on phones. Yes. They were absolutely wrong about the mathematics of
00:18:44those videos and who should make them and why people would watch them and all of that stuff.
00:18:49Yeah. Wait, can I just quickly read you a line from, so Chris Welch reviewed the app for us when
00:18:53it first came out. And here's just a line from it that really jumped out to me. He says, opening
00:18:57Quibi starts you off in the For You tab, which uses a vertical card interface. It feels more
00:19:01Instagram and less Netflix carousel. You'll see a show's title, metadata. And if you stay on one
00:19:05card for a few seconds, video begins autoplaying. That's just, it's just TikTok. Like it's, it
00:19:11really is kind of amazing how, to be clear, TikTok was out and you know, and it's Tom Conrad was
00:19:17there. She T at like, he's a smart dude. And also like snap had done a lot of this stuff. So like
00:19:21the idea that vertical video that autoplayed was going to be a thing was like, not surprising,
00:19:25but to its credit, Quibi was like, yeah, this is, this is the thing. We're not going to like
00:19:31go 90 and tell everybody that the solution is to flip your phone over. Like, except they did,
00:19:37like they did it, they did it. They have a patent on turnstile, which is the funniest,
00:19:46but like, I just want to, I mean, I have dunked on Quibi more than anybody has ever dunked on
00:19:49Quibi, but the thing for a bunch of Hollywood executives and Meg Whitman to like correctly
00:19:55identify how entertainment would change because of like product changes was why they nailed it.
00:20:03And then they got completely blown up by not only pandemic, but their own sense that they
00:20:09could literally increase costs by a thousand and then somehow make it up on the backend,
00:20:14which no one can do. To be fair. That's what all of the streaming services were doing at that time,
00:20:19right? Like everybody was investing a ton of money into, to making their own services. So
00:20:26Quibi was doing the exact same thing as everybody else. How did it work out? It worked out terribly.
00:20:31The only difference is they were part of biggest, like everybody else was
00:20:36established studio. This wasn't like DreamWorks thing. This was Katzenberg was like, I'm going
00:20:40to go make my own new company to be at the start of something new and I'll get everybody else
00:20:44involved. And then the pandemic just cut him off at the knees. Like I genuinely think if
00:20:51it had come out in a different time, it would have lasted at least six months longer.
00:20:55Well, okay. So this is one of the big questions I want to, I was going to get to, but let's just
00:21:03do this now. The, is there an alternate timeline in which this thing was more successful? Feels
00:21:09like the question of Quibi, right? Cause when Quibi died Katzenberg just a hundred percent
00:21:14blamed the pandemic, right? He's like, this would have worked except for the pandemic.
00:21:17Just, and I just want to call out, he ended it in maybe the most noble way of ending a thing
00:21:22that has raised us. He just gave the money back to Cheryl. She was like, I'm not burning the rest
00:21:26of your money. This isn't going to happen. Here's your money back. So there's that, but he did fully
00:21:29blame the pandemic. I do feel like opening the multiverse door around COVID is just a rough,
00:21:36a rough game to play. Fair. Many different decisions could have been made during that time.
00:21:43Yes. But this is the unusual thing that literally lived and died entirely inside of the pandemic,
00:21:48right? Like it's not just that it's fortune changed. It's that it's its entire story is
00:21:52actually a pandemic story. So I, I'll just go back to what, uh, leaving the door closed.
00:21:58YouTube existed. TikTok existed. The game that they were trying to play had already been won
00:22:04by services that, you know, you can have a lot. I have a lot of feelings about the fact that these
00:22:08services do not pay very high rates. I think a lot of people in Hollywood have a lot of feelings
00:22:12about the fact that these services do not pay very high rates to their creators. Katzenberg
00:22:16being like, we're going to pay much higher rates and then figure out how to get people to pay for
00:22:20quality. Very noble. I think no matter what, maybe you get six more months, like Kranz is saying,
00:22:25they would have run up against the fact that YouTube exists. And YouTube is fundamentally
00:22:30what all these, these companies are competing with. And to some extent, TikTok is what TikTok
00:22:34has grown as quickly minus the pandemic is the multiverse door that is just like hard to figure
00:22:41out. But hey, there's an app on your phone. That's free, full of infinite content versus
00:22:46haters and app on your phone. You have to pay for it. It's full of some content is at the end of
00:22:50the day, it's just like really hard to win that game. Right. And I think even, even then there
00:22:55was an understanding that they were competing against infinite content, but the belief was that
00:22:59like, we can do it better and better. We'll win. And Kranz, I feel like the thing that we've learned
00:23:04a million times over now is that better doesn't actually always win. I don't even know if better
00:23:08usually wins. Quibi wasn't better. Like, like most, most of the shows that were on Quibi,
00:23:13not all a bunch of them were killed. I know Gizmodo had like a documentary. Um, I think
00:23:18Verge had one, a bunch of us had it. We, we, no. It didn't happen. Can we, can we pause on that
00:23:23really fast? I went back and was reading a bunch of stuff and there were like three disclosures
00:23:26and stories that are like, there have been conversations about a Verge show on Quibi.
00:23:30Neal, I, I need to know the story. Uh, so it was a Polygon show on Quibi. Yes.
00:23:36You know, Quibi broke its content up into three categories. There was the spotlights,
00:23:41there were Quibis, and then there was something called Daily Essentials and they thought Daily
00:23:47Essentials would be sticky. And this all made sense. Again, none of this was incorrect. You
00:23:50got your Halo things, you got the stuff everybody watches every day that makes your product sticky.
00:23:54And then you got whatever weird garbage in the middle to find. That's how you program anything.
00:23:59Uh, so Polygon had a new show about games and then they wanted to do a tech show, obviously.
00:24:03And so we were like in the mix and like, I had to disclose it constantly that like someone else
00:24:07is having a conversation. And that thing I keep talking about where I don't live on the business
00:24:11side of our company and I don't tell them what to do and they can't tell me what to do. Boy,
00:24:15were we just like staring at each other through bulletproof glass. Like, I was like, uh, like,
00:24:22I don't want to waste time on this. And that was where that ended. Basically.
00:24:25Did you ever sit in a meeting about what the Verge Quibi show was going to be?
00:24:30Only on the Vox media side, never with Quibi where they were like, here's our thought. And I was like,
00:24:36weird. You know, like you, like you are gonna like, we give this away for free on our website.
00:24:43Why would anybody watch this on Quibi? That was basically where it ended for me.
00:24:48Yeah. Can I read you just the names of a few shows that did exist? And these,
00:24:52I actually am lifting directly from the CES presentation. So this is not just shows that
00:24:56exist. This is shows that like Quibi was very excited about. There was The Now. There was
00:25:01Barkitecture. Nightgowns was just a show. One was called Beauty. Sure. There was one called 50 States
00:25:09of Fright that was going to be a whole anthology series that was a horror thing set in a different
00:25:12state for each one for reasons. One was called Don't Look Deeper, which I always liked. And then
00:25:18there was one just called Action Scene. Yeah. Just called Action Scene. The only one I remember
00:25:23watching was the one with one of the Hemsworth's where he was being hunted by Christoph Waltz.
00:25:27That's the only one I remember. I liked that one. Yeah, there was there was a lot of garbage,
00:25:32I think is the best way to say it. Most of it, none of it was very good. And after Quibi kind
00:25:37of started to die, they started selling off a lot of it trying to like... Yeah, like Roku bought a
00:25:41bunch of it, right? Yeah, Roku bought a bunch of it. And I think it is telling that none of those
00:25:46shows survived. I think that is telling. And part of that is probably certainly Quibi. A big part of
00:25:51that was the shows just weren't very good. Yeah, which by the way, we've talked about this a bunch,
00:25:56so I'll just blow through the review stuff. That thing is I would say the main criticism. It's
00:26:00basically there are a lot of people who are like, there's some really cool technology here for a 1.0
00:26:04app. It's actually pretty good. A lot of people agreed with what Chris said about the tab. People
00:26:08liked turnstile. Fun fact. Yeah, it's neat. But overwhelmingly, it's like there's nothing here
00:26:13that is like particularly compelling. It's just Quibi didn't have like its thing. It didn't have
00:26:18the house of cards. It didn't have its HBO equivalent. It needed one winner and it just
00:26:24didn't have it. No Mandalorian. And the interesting thing about that, going back to what Kranz was
00:26:29saying about Hollywood, is everyone wanted Cats' money. No one wanted to bet against Cats. But then
00:26:35there were all these contracts and labor questions about how do you cut a show up like this? And so
00:26:43he absolutely bought everyone's like C-list work. What's the least risky thing that we can sell to
00:26:50this thing that might blow up? But we don't want to bet against it. So everyone made a deal and
00:26:55took the money. But just like very obviously, they were putting up their like C content.
00:27:01Again, the golden arm. Just go Google Quibi golden arms. Take a minute, Google it and you'll be like,
00:27:07oh, I get it. Yeah. Were there any like underrated winners, Kranz? Like do you have
00:27:13any Quibi shows that you hold on to and you're like, actually, that was a banger and nobody knows?
00:27:16I vaguely remember there was Reno 911, like sequel. Oh, that was like, it was a nice little
00:27:22diversion and the House Flippers show. And I don't think the Steven Spielberg one ever came out. That
00:27:27was the one that was like, we heard so much about before Quibi was. That was the one you could only
00:27:31watch at night. Yeah. Wasn't that the thing? Yeah. It was Steven Spielberg's idea. He like
00:27:35came to them was like, I hear you're doing this stuff. Here's what I want to do. And that was like,
00:27:40I think the most interesting part of this was listening to all these different filmmakers
00:27:43actually really engage with the technology in a way they haven't with other streaming platforms.
00:27:48Like even TikTok, they just haven't touched like, oh, there's an actual product here I can fuck with
00:27:53the way they did with Quibi. But then none of it was successful and they never tried it again.
00:27:58That sounds about right. All right. Before we get out of here, let's roll through the big questions
00:28:03that we do here on Virgin History. What was the best thing about this thing?
00:28:06Turnstile. Legit. It was, it was, I think it's a fascinating technology.
00:28:11I kind of agree. Like, I don't, I don't know that it was a good idea, but it was,
00:28:16it was awesome. Yeah. It was just cool. You just look at it and you're like,
00:28:19this rips. I don't know if it's going to work. Yeah. Like, did it accomplish anything? I don't
00:28:23know. What are you two talking about? David and I are just having the best time over here. What
00:28:28are you talking about? Turnstile was awesome. That was the only part of it.
00:28:34You should, you can go read the Turnstile patent. They had very complicated ideas about
00:28:38how you should frame a video so you could turn it inside the viewport. That's cool in the sense
00:28:44that like, you know, you like, you look at a Rube Goldberg machine, you're like, that's a very
00:28:47impressive or like a giant, you know, those like videos where people have set up a huge amount of
00:28:51dominoes and you're like, I just want to see him fall down. Like, I don't care about the millions
00:28:56of hours you spent setting up. Turnstile is brain ASMR. It's just like, yeah, I just want to like,
00:29:01soothingly think about this. Neela, what do you think was the best thing about Quibi?
00:29:06Going back to what I said Casey's reaction was, if you just remember that period, that was like,
00:29:12it was a dark and boring time in tech in like a particular way. And like, here's this explosive
00:29:19amount of money and new ideas. And like, we're going to blow it up in the, we can do it with
00:29:25just like confidence and bluster and an enormous amount of cash was actually great. Like it was a
00:29:32good reminder that you can have a new idea in what contextually, especially through the pandemic
00:29:39was like not a choice. And so like, there's that of it, but at the same time, like, do you,
00:29:45I don't even remember this at that same CES, Samsung introduced a TV that rotated and like
00:29:52cats was like furious at it. Cause he was like, they stole my idea. And I was like, no dude,
00:29:56like all the videos are vertical, but they are reacting to Instagram and Tik TOK. Like
00:30:02they didn't steal Quibi's idea. Can you imagine people just getting up and flipping their TV?
00:30:07Like, Oh, I wonder what this scene will look like. They still have it. The frame TV,
00:30:11you can buy a mount for a frame TV that auto rotates it when you play vertical video on it.
00:30:16I have not bought such a mount. I've stared at it many, many times and then tried to bring myself
00:30:21to a place where I think the right thing to do is cast a vertical video to a TV that's
00:30:26motoring around. We're staging an intervention. If you ever reach that place, like emotionally,
00:30:32but like we're many generations deep into those products now because the companies understand
00:30:37that people are watching vertical video. So I think the thing about it was the,
00:30:42the idea that Hollywood would have some bluster here and that would be a counterbalance and it
00:30:46all got blown up for all the reasons got blown up. And you just haven't seen that.
00:30:51You've just sort of seen Hollywood like, like fall over instead. Uh, and I, I would like to
00:30:56see some, some energy come back. Fair enough. Uh, all right. What was the worst thing about Quibi?
00:31:00I have a very strong opinion about this, but I want to know what you guys think.
00:31:03It's the name. It's gotta be the name. There we go. It's the name. As I've said many times on
00:31:07this show, one of my strongest held beliefs is that you cannot overcome a terrible name.
00:31:11Like I, I honestly, it sounds like a bit, I believe it so sincerely. I don't know, man.
00:31:16It's, it's fine. You can turn like a name into a good name. You cannot turn a terrible name.
00:31:22I can't survive like a C, a C or higher is fine. But if you, if you have an F name,
00:31:28it's never coming back. Okay. Yeah. I agree with you. Quibi is an F name.
00:31:32Quibi is one of the worst. I had so much fun ripping on that name and everything I wrote
00:31:38about that site. Like, like just looking for puns, looking for, it's just a horrible, horrible name.
00:31:44And the fact that they tried to make it that unit of time in the, like awful.
00:31:48Like it was just, you were trying to, they were trying way too hard to make Quibi happen.
00:31:52Do you think, do you think that they're like forever pissed that TikTok won,
00:31:56like the Kesha spelling of TikTok? Yes. I think that I like Kesha gets it.
00:32:02They should have gone to her and been like, Hey, help us fix this name.
00:32:05But I think if, if TikTok had come out being like, you know, it's like the clock does,
00:32:09right guys? It would have been worse. You know what I mean?
00:32:12Yeah. If they'd done a Superbowl ad where they're like, I'll be there in a TikTok.
00:32:15Like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe the Superbowl ad was the worst.
00:32:20Yeah. Actually take it back. Superbowl ad was the worst thing. It really just put it all together.
00:32:25If you could go back in time and make Quibi before
00:32:28somebody else made Quibi, what would you do differently?
00:32:31Make it before 2020. Fair.
00:32:33You know, that golden arm thing is really interesting. Cause it went viral, just not
00:32:37on Quibi. If you remember this, they, it was a Hollywood app. It was like heavily DRM. You
00:32:42couldn't even screenshot it. Uh, and at one point they were like, Oh, we know people want to
00:32:46screenshot Quibi. We're going to build this like convoluted system where we pre-select screens
00:32:53and clips for you to share in the, and it's like, no, to just let people do like, let people make
00:32:58memes. That's the one thing I would have changed is like, make this thing more social. Cause that
00:33:03was the thing that I missed. Yeah, I agree. I think that was going to be my answer too.
00:33:07Embrace the other parts of TikTok, right? Which are like, let people, I think you probably can't
00:33:13like let people stitch and duet stuff. Like that doesn't feel right, but like let people clip stuff
00:33:18and share clips, let people make memes out of it. Like you're talking about, let people share
00:33:21screenshots. Like they had done so many different things, even just with like the way they licensed
00:33:26content that it's like, just blow up the idea of what it means to like be a show even further.
00:33:32And I actually think there's like some really interesting stuff you could do there. Also,
00:33:35I would name it, not Quibi. I realized Sam Raimi directed that.
00:33:40The golden arm? Speaking of sea material.
00:33:45The golden arm gets a bad rap. There's some, it's in my brain and you know, I don't,
00:33:49I'm not going to burn the calories to get it out, but it's like, it was a joke in some way. And it
00:33:53got decontextualized as a joke into people believing Quibi thought it was serious. And
00:33:57then it became a different kind of joke. The actress was like, this was a joke. We were like
00:34:01making fun of people obsessed with like tech and stuff. And instead everybody was like, Nope,
00:34:06you got a dumb golden arm. I'm going to laugh at the golden arm. Dumb. It's dumb.
00:34:10I don't, again, it's in there somewhere. And I, you know, someone else can Google it and send
00:34:15it to us. All right. We have two more Quibi questions. Question number one is, could you
00:34:19reboot it in 2024? Could Quibi post pandemic, post TikTok, could we do Quibi now?
00:34:26Yeah, but they would just be friends episodes cut up and put on there,
00:34:30but like paid for instead of shadow put up on TikTok.
00:34:34So it's just TikTok minus the impending copyright lawsuits basically.
00:34:38Exactly.
00:34:38Neela, you're very pensive.
00:34:40I want to say yes. Really? I'm trying to make the case and it's much harder than I thought it would
00:34:46be. You know, you don't want to be a reflexive no. It would be really hard to raise the money now.
00:34:52Quibi was a true Zerp, a zero interest rate phenomenon. The content would be easier to
00:34:58get because all the other streamers are kind of falling apart and they want to sell things,
00:35:01but getting people to download an app that isn't TikTok in 2024 and pay money for it seems hard.
00:35:07Do you think the thesis that somebody at some point will do a really good high end,
00:35:14mostly vertical streaming service is real? Like can Holly, will somebody eventually make a vertical
00:35:20feature film starring Chris Pratt that is like good and successful?
00:35:25Not as long as YouTube and TikTok and totally free content exists, right? Like,
00:35:30if there's no real clear path to making money back on that, who is going to invest the money in that?
00:35:36You know what? I think vertical video, I was reading a story about fashion brands
00:35:43wanting things shot on iPhones for the ad campaigns now because it's more authentic,
00:35:47which is fascinating for a million reasons. I think vertical video is personal and horizontal
00:35:53is Hollywood. And I don't think you can cross that gap. That's, that's just my, that's my guess. I,
00:35:58I'm switching my answer to no, you can't do it. I tried, I tried, let it be said that I really
00:36:04tried and it's still, it's still not good. YouTube still exists. Yeah. I, I don't know. Part of me
00:36:11wonders, I mean, like YouTube and TikTok are forever trying to find ways to get fancy content
00:36:17and fancy content is forever trying to find ways to get the engagement and excitement and user
00:36:23generated content of those other platforms. And it does feel like at some point there might be a
00:36:27middle ground that makes sense, but maybe it's just the two ends of the spectrum. And actually,
00:36:32every time you try to cross the two, it doesn't work.
00:36:34The economics are just super weird because you, okay, you start making movies for YouTube,
00:36:39then you need contracts with the unions, which means why aren't all the people making
00:36:44stuff already for YouTube, not getting contracts. And then it's like, Oh boy,
00:36:48nobody wants to touch that. Okay. Well then let me ask the question slightly differently.
00:36:52Will Netflix ever make a vertical movie that is just vertical? No, no way. Why not?
00:37:00Because where are you going to distribute it? You're going to show it on phones only,
00:37:03TVs, people, there's no way anyone's going to watch a vertical video on their TV.
00:37:09But what if you have a TV that, that turns, this is it. Samsung's going to buy the first
00:37:15vertical Netflix show. Wait, what's Samsung streaming service called? That's where it's
00:37:19going to appear. It was called milk video. Okay. Last question. Does Quibi belong in the
00:37:28version history hall of fame? No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. I feel strong reaction for me.
00:37:39I'd say in my, like my personal hall of fame, just cause it was so nuts. Like it was all of
00:37:45tech and media were conspiring to gaslight the American public. It definitely goes in the good
00:37:50content hall of fame, not itself, but the content about it was, it was, it was a terrific year.
00:37:56When we say Hall of Fame, what do we mean?
00:37:58Because in a lot of respects, this is a Hall of Famer,
00:38:01just not like a good product.
00:38:04In which respects would you say this is a Hall of Famer?
00:38:06Again, from what you said, like the drama.
00:38:08The drama was beautiful.
00:38:09Like the Clown Hall of Fame?
00:38:11Yeah.
00:38:12The Trolls Hall of Fame?
00:38:15No, no, no, no, no, we got a high bar.
00:38:17The Hall of Fame is like an industry shaking,
00:38:19that you remember what life was like before
00:38:22and what life was like after.
00:38:23So the Juicero goes in the Hall of Fame.
00:38:26No, your idea of what a Hall of Fame is is very confusing.
00:38:30Here's my early idea for the Hall of Fame.
00:38:32I think it has to have either been very good,
00:38:35very important, or very interesting.
00:38:38And you kind of need at least two of those three things
00:38:41to be in the Hall of Fame.
00:38:43And I think Quibi was just interesting.
00:38:44That's fair.
00:38:45Like it wasn't important and it wasn't good.
00:38:47It was very interesting,
00:38:48but I feel like it doesn't quite like move over.
00:38:52Like I've just, I don't know,
00:38:54the other failure that comes to mind was like Theranos.
00:38:57Theranos I think was very interesting and very important
00:38:59in that like what it meant in the bigger world
00:39:02was a lot more than just Quibi.
00:39:03This Hall of Fame sucks.
00:39:05Theranos will probably never be on this show.
00:39:08Let's be clear.
00:39:09We'll put the Game Boy or something in there, yeah.
00:39:11There will be good things someday.
00:39:14We'll get to those.
00:39:15The iPhone 5 is gonna go in there.
00:39:17This is a deeply confusing Hall of Fame.
00:39:20It's gonna be great.
00:39:20I'm excited about it.
00:39:21These are just pilots.
00:39:22We're just figuring stuff out here.
00:39:24That's all it is.
00:39:25All right, thank you both for doing this with me.
00:39:27This was delightful.
00:39:28If you have an idea for a better name than Quibi,
00:39:31tell us and we'll bring it back and it'll be amazing.
00:39:34All right, we got to take a break.
00:39:35Then we're gonna go back.
00:39:36We have more pilots.
00:39:48All right, we're back.
00:39:49Our second pilot today is the second episode
00:39:51of the, I would say, as yet untitled Verge debate show.
00:39:55By the way, if you have better names
00:39:57for either of these shows, I'm very into it.
00:39:59Naming things is hard.
00:40:00Let's just say that.
00:40:01We've been talking about these names forever.
00:40:03We haven't landed anywhere we really like.
00:40:05I think the debate show should be called
00:40:07Gotta Hear Both Sides,
00:40:08but not everybody finds that as funny as I do.
00:40:10So if you have name ideas, structure ideas,
00:40:13show ideas, anything, hit us up.
00:40:15Vergecasts at theverge.com.
00:40:16Call the hotline 866-VERGE11.
00:40:19We love to hear it all.
00:40:20But anyway, back to the debate show.
00:40:22The idea with this one was basically
00:40:24to just have a mini courtroom on the Vergecast.
00:40:28We get into these which thing is better debates
00:40:31all the time.
00:40:32Sometimes it's really high stakes stuff
00:40:34about whatever car brands
00:40:36or Nokia versus Apple a million years ago.
00:40:39We had like big long debates
00:40:41about Windows Phone versus Android.
00:40:44There were so many of these things.
00:40:46We've had teeny tiny inconsequential debates
00:40:49about which music app you should listen to.
00:40:50All of this stuff is very fun.
00:40:52And Liam James, our producer,
00:40:54has been wanting to find a way to structure this for a while
00:40:57and kind of put us in a room,
00:40:58pit us against each other,
00:40:59and have us like fight for real
00:41:01about which thing is better.
00:41:03So that's essentially what the show is.
00:41:06Last week, we talked about CarPlay
00:41:07versus the automakers.
00:41:09Neal and I got, I would say,
00:41:10more heated than either of us expected.
00:41:12I definitely won, but you know,
00:41:14that's neither here nor there.
00:41:15This week, the debate is about books.
00:41:18Print books, digital books,
00:41:20who reads in the future,
00:41:21and what do they do it with?
00:41:22Let's do it.
00:41:26Good day.
00:41:27I am Liam James, the moderator for today's debate,
00:41:30and my job is to facilitate a debate
00:41:32between today's Vergecast hosts
00:41:33on the topic of books versus e-readers.
00:41:36First up, we have Alex Kranz, Deputy Editor.
00:41:40Welcome to the debate, Alex.
00:41:41Hi, I'm so happy to be here and destroy my competition.
00:41:44First as Kranz, we have Kevin Nguyen,
00:41:46our Features Editor at The Verge.
00:41:48Welcome, Kevin.
00:41:49Thanks for having me.
00:41:50Before we get started,
00:41:51I'd like to share the rules for our audience.
00:41:53Each person will make their case
00:41:54directly to the Vergecast audience.
00:41:56A virtual coin toss will determine who gets to go first.
00:41:59Following open statements,
00:42:00each host will be given two minutes
00:42:02to answer my questions with an option
00:42:04of up to a minute in rebuttal from the opposing host.
00:42:07The questions were not shared in advance,
00:42:09and our hosts may use the internet
00:42:10to confirm factual details,
00:42:12but they use their limited time while doing so.
00:42:15Okay, so with the rules out of the way,
00:42:16let's move on to the topic for today.
00:42:18We're gonna talk about e-books versus printed books.
00:42:21Now, e-books as we know them today
00:42:24have been around for decades, believe it or not.
00:42:27In fact, you can go all the way back to the 1970s
00:42:30to get early examples and prototypes
00:42:32of what we now consider to be an e-book.
00:42:35But it was in 2007 that Amazon released the first Kindle,
00:42:38and it kind of revolutionized the whole e-book market.
00:42:41Kindle had wireless connectivity
00:42:43that allowed people to download books
00:42:45directly to the device,
00:42:47simplifying the whole process and making it something
00:42:50that regular consumers could buy and use and enjoy.
00:42:54Now, since then, tons of other companies have come out
00:42:56with similar devices to the Kindle,
00:42:59but it's still a relatively small market
00:43:01compared to actual printed books.
00:43:04So we asked the question,
00:43:06which is better, an e-book or a printed book?
00:43:09Now we move on to our opening statements.
00:43:12At virtual coin toss, let's see,
00:43:14Kevin is the visiting person.
00:43:16So he gets to pick heads or tails.
00:43:19Kevin, heads or tails?
00:43:20I see how it is.
00:43:21Let's do tails.
00:43:22It's rigged.
00:43:23Tails, okay.
00:43:25Okay, it is tails.
00:43:26Kevin, would you like to go first or second?
00:43:29You know, I'm a gentleman.
00:43:30Alex, why don't you go first?
00:43:32Ah, I see how it is.
00:43:33I see how it is.
00:43:34Kevin wants that final word in the closing arguments.
00:43:38Okay, and with that, we'll go to our opening statements.
00:43:41Alex, you have two minutes.
00:43:43Okay, hey, gentle readers at The Verge,
00:43:46listeners, wonderful human beings.
00:43:48I'm here to talk to you about e-books and why they rule.
00:43:52Number one, you can put them on anything.
00:43:54Can't do that with a book.
00:43:56Books, you have to like take with you.
00:43:58You can only have one, two at a time
00:44:00unless you're really strong.
00:44:02E-books, you can have like dozens,
00:44:04depending on the storage of your e-reader or phone.
00:44:07Also great about e-books,
00:44:09they can be changed at any time.
00:44:11So, you know, if a company says,
00:44:13hey, we need to release an edit for this book
00:44:16because we messed something up,
00:44:18they can just push that edit out
00:44:20and then you'll get the fixed version of that book.
00:44:22And I think that's really great
00:44:23and can never go wrong for anyone.
00:44:25Also, e-books are really, really nice
00:44:28because of accessibility.
00:44:30They are very, very easy to read.
00:44:33There are wonderful fonts out there
00:44:34that allow people with dyslexia to read a little easier.
00:44:38There are ways to make the fonts bigger
00:44:40so people with really bad eyesight
00:44:42can see the text easier.
00:44:44And you just don't have that kind of flexibility
00:44:46from a traditional book
00:44:47where you usually have to have some sort of magnifying glass
00:44:50and then you have to walk around carrying a magnifying glass
00:44:52and then everyone judges you
00:44:53because you have a magnifying glass.
00:44:55And I think you'd want to avoid that most of the time.
00:44:58And you can with something like the Books Palma
00:45:01or the Kindle, you know, any of them,
00:45:04or the Libra from Kobo.
00:45:05A lot of different companies
00:45:07make really, really nice e-readers
00:45:09that have really, really nice displays.
00:45:12They have really, really good features in them.
00:45:15And again, they give you that flexibility.
00:45:18And I think that's what's most important about e-books
00:45:21is the flexibility they provide you.
00:45:25How much longer do I go?
00:45:26I didn't look when I started.
00:45:28You had 11 seconds left, but now it's over.
00:45:30Oh, and in conclusion,
00:45:34e-books rule, regular books are fine.
00:45:37Thank you for your time.
00:45:39Okay, Kevin, what say you?
00:45:41Well, I just want to start, you know,
00:45:43I feel like I'm being cast as a Luddite by my opponent.
00:45:47And I have to say,
00:45:48I do think e-books are an interesting technology.
00:45:51You know, I own a Books Palma,
00:45:52like half of the Verge staff now.
00:45:54And so I'll start with some concessions.
00:45:56E-books are faster.
00:45:58Sometimes they are cheaper.
00:45:59We will talk about that later.
00:46:01And they are great for accessibility,
00:46:02especially for the visually impaired.
00:46:05That said, the book, the print book,
00:46:08is an old and near perfect technology.
00:46:10It's inexpensive, it's durable, it's shareable.
00:46:14It's also accessible in a very different way.
00:46:16No technology, no modern technology needed,
00:46:19no software necessary, no updates.
00:46:22And also in a time when we're being, not just in books,
00:46:25but across all of the media we consume,
00:46:26video games, TV, film, music,
00:46:29a little more skeptical of our platforms
00:46:31and what kind of access we'll have
00:46:33to our media in the future,
00:46:35print books give you that access forever.
00:46:38Owning a library of your own physical books
00:46:40means you'll be able to read them in perpetuity,
00:46:42to sell them, to share them with friends,
00:46:45to get rid of them if you want.
00:46:46That's a kind of freedom that is not offered
00:46:49by most of the ways we read digitally.
00:46:51But I think most importantly,
00:46:52I think reading is about being deliberate.
00:46:55Reading is not about reading as much
00:46:57or consuming as much as you can as quickly as possible.
00:47:00I think reading, good reading is about
00:47:02good habits and discipline.
00:47:04A print book is isolated
00:47:05from the rest of the things on your phone.
00:47:07And that's what makes the reading experience so powerful.
00:47:10Meaning that when you read,
00:47:11you'll be more focused and hopefully more patient,
00:47:13and you'll just take in more ideas.
00:47:16You'll have more enjoyment out of what you're consuming.
00:47:19Maybe you'll even think about it
00:47:20outside of consumption itself.
00:47:22Art is meant to be experienced.
00:47:24I also think books allow you
00:47:26to be very deliberate with your time.
00:47:28The physical presence of a book on your nightstand
00:47:31is a reminder of what you're reading
00:47:32and what you've decided to spend your time with.
00:47:35I also think being deliberate
00:47:36about what we choose to spend our time with
00:47:38is important too.
00:47:40We all know that Amazon's monopoly is in eBooks.
00:47:44And I think every publisher and author in bookstore
00:47:47would probably say that it's not great for the ecosystem.
00:47:50If you listener don't believe in monopolies,
00:47:53I think you have some skepticism
00:47:54about how much you buy from Amazon.
00:47:57There's also a whole ecosystem of independent bookstores
00:47:59that sell print books that support authors as well.
00:48:02And that is your time.
00:48:04Yeah, I'm ready.
00:48:06Kevin, you will have an opportunity
00:48:07to finish that thought with your first question.
00:48:10However, our first question goes to Alex Kranz.
00:48:12Alex, in your opening statement,
00:48:14you mentioned the ability to carry more books with you
00:48:17than is possible with printed books.
00:48:19This reminds me of the iPod,
00:48:21but in that category,
00:48:22music has very much moved into the digital realm.
00:48:26Why haven't books been able to do the same?
00:48:29You know that monopoly Kevin mentioned?
00:48:32I think that does actually have a lot to do with it.
00:48:35I think eBooks are not consumed at the same way
00:48:37that music is consumed.
00:48:39And so people are much more, as Kevin said,
00:48:41deliberate with their choices.
00:48:43And there have been very, very few options
00:48:45for them historically, right?
00:48:47Historically, it was Barnes and Noble and Amazon,
00:48:50and they both kept very, very tight control
00:48:52over their eBook marketplaces.
00:48:53That has begun to change in the last few years,
00:48:56also coinciding with a rise in reading of eBooks
00:49:00and a rise in the sales of eReading devices.
00:49:03So I think things are changing due to companies like Kobo,
00:49:06due to choices like Libby,
00:49:09which allow you to check out eBooks from your library.
00:49:12Kevin, you mentioned in your opening statement
00:49:14that books are a near perfect technology.
00:49:17But as we look towards younger generations,
00:49:19it seems like books have fallen off as a form of media
00:49:24and entertainment and pleasure.
00:49:25What does the publishing industry need to do
00:49:28to solve that problem?
00:49:29Yeah, I actually don't think there's a lot of evidence
00:49:32to say that Gen Z is actually reading less.
00:49:36It's just the format that they're reading in.
00:49:38And honestly, with Zoomers,
00:49:40however they want to read, that's great with me.
00:49:42I still think reading is just a greater way
00:49:44to access a deeper level of idea and thought
00:49:47than maybe consuming a lot of YouTube content.
00:49:51But I think publishers just need to think
00:49:53about what younger readers actually are interested in.
00:49:56I think the industry itself is run by a lot of
00:49:59much older people that don't understand the youth.
00:50:02So I think just understanding the trends
00:50:04and what young people are actually interested in
00:50:06in publishing books around those topic areas
00:50:09is probably the place to start.
00:50:11Because I actually don't think the resistance to reading
00:50:14has anything to do with books themselves,
00:50:16but what publishers are choosing
00:50:18to put out in the landscape.
00:50:19Krantz, opportunity to respond?
00:50:22Yeah, I think Kevin's wrong
00:50:24and that the youth aren't reading as much
00:50:27because they want to read on their phones.
00:50:30No, that's not true.
00:50:31We're like, you look at TikTok, you look at BookTok
00:50:34and there is a lot of reading of actual physical books there
00:50:37but they're also really, really pretty.
00:50:39And they'll show you just the paper side.
00:50:41They'll never show you the spine,
00:50:42but they want to show those books off.
00:50:45However, the majority of people are not TikTok creators.
00:50:48They're just people living in their home,
00:50:50particularly Gen Z.
00:50:53And they enjoy reading other ways, right?
00:50:56The phone is the center point
00:50:57of their technological universe
00:50:59and having those opportunities there
00:51:01are really, really important.
00:51:03But I do agree that there has been a struggle
00:51:05due to the fact that Amazon,
00:51:08that's right, it's all Amazon's fault.
00:51:10We're actually gonna end up in agreement here.
00:51:12Yeah, we're gonna be like, actually both are great.
00:51:14Amazon's the real villain.
00:51:16Okay, Krantz, the next question is for you.
00:51:18I wanna stick on book sales for a moment here.
00:51:22One of the more harsh criticisms
00:51:24that is perennial to eBooks is the cost of them,
00:51:29that they are oftentimes, if not usually cheaper
00:51:33than their printed counterparts.
00:51:35Apple notoriously colluded with other book publishers
00:51:39to try to raise the cost of eBooks
00:51:41when they introduced their own digital book platform.
00:51:45Do you think authors are getting the short end of the stick
00:51:51when consumers buy eBooks?
00:51:54Depends on their publisher, honestly.
00:51:56I think authors are highly dependent on their publishers
00:51:59and the deals they make with their publishers.
00:52:01Both Kevin and I are published authors,
00:52:03Kevin with his name, me under a pseudonym
00:52:05because it was a romance novel.
00:52:07And what you find out is that you can make a lot of money
00:52:12through digital sales
00:52:13and we've seen really good examples of that.
00:52:16Usually involving a person boning
00:52:17some sort of sentient dinosaur or sign,
00:52:20but it happens, it's out there.
00:52:23And the worst part of this
00:52:26is that I think the publishers are still getting in the way
00:52:28and taking a significant cut
00:52:30and trying to make sure that the cut
00:52:31that the authors receive via eBooks
00:52:33is the same as via traditional print,
00:52:36despite the fact that traditional print
00:52:38has a much higher cost.
00:52:39Kevin, a chance to respond?
00:52:41Yeah, I'd like to respond.
00:52:43This is strange because actually in some ways
00:52:46I think I'll be siding with Kranz on this,
00:52:48but eBook royalties are actually by percentage
00:52:51higher for authors than they are in the print book space.
00:52:55For hardcover and eBook,
00:52:56it usually nets out to about the same.
00:52:58But once he gets a paperback,
00:53:00selling an eBook versus a paperback
00:53:02actually nets a lot more for the author
00:53:04on a per unit level.
00:53:06But I actually don't think publishers are the villain here.
00:53:08They do a lot to protect.
00:53:10I think Apple and PRH did collude
00:53:14to raise the cost of books,
00:53:17but it was to protect an existing infrastructure of cost
00:53:21that was being driven down by the digital marketplace,
00:53:24by Amazon.
00:53:25So publishers do understand that when they're healthy,
00:53:28authors are healthy too.
00:53:30And they do a lot more to protect the interests of authors
00:53:32than Amazon does.
00:53:34So it's Amazon's fault.
00:53:36It's Amazon's fault.
00:53:37Okay.
00:53:39Moving on to more of the technology side
00:53:42of these two technologies,
00:53:45the next question is for you, Kevin.
00:53:46What do books provide to the reader that eBooks cannot?
00:53:52I'm not sure if they provide something
00:53:53that the eBook doesn't,
00:53:55but I do think the experience of reading a print book
00:53:57is much richer.
00:53:58I actually think, you know,
00:53:59we talked earlier about how young people,
00:54:02but I actually think everyone has struggles with this.
00:54:04Like, I think we all wish we read more.
00:54:06I think we all wish we had time to read more.
00:54:08I think we all wish we had the patience
00:54:10and space to read more.
00:54:12And I think the print book gives you that space
00:54:15more so than reading off your phone or a device
00:54:17or something that can do many things.
00:54:20I know we've talked a little bit about eInk devices
00:54:23or dedicated digital reading devices.
00:54:26Some of them are very good,
00:54:28but I just think the focus,
00:54:29even to just choose one book and stick with it
00:54:32is a very powerful thing a print device
00:54:35or a print book does that a device doesn't give you.
00:54:38The device just gives you too much choice.
00:54:40And it's just kind of,
00:54:41you don't want the same feeling of scrolling Netflix
00:54:43endlessly when you're trying to read a book.
00:54:46Kranz, instead of giving you a chance to respond,
00:54:48I'm gonna ask you a similar question.
00:54:50E-books provide many features
00:54:52on top of the reading experience.
00:54:54Some of these could be criticized as distractions.
00:54:58Some of them could be described as providing new ways
00:55:04to help readers understand or gain knowledge
00:55:07about what writers are talking about.
00:55:09What is essential to you as an e-book reader
00:55:14in terms of these features?
00:55:16What is the minimum required?
00:55:18All right, first, I am happy to answer that question,
00:55:20but I'm gonna take five seconds to respond to Kevin.
00:55:23And one thing books provide that e-books don't
00:55:25is paper cuts.
00:55:26So take that, Kevin.
00:55:28I've never gotten a-
00:55:29Does that happen to you often?
00:55:30Never gotten a paper cut from my books Palma
00:55:33that I've had for two days,
00:55:34but I have gotten a paper cut from
00:55:36is a yearbook in my childhood bedroom.
00:55:40Anyway, that was more than five seconds.
00:55:41But what really matters about e-books is the flexibility.
00:55:44I think that flexibility is so, so, so, so crucial
00:55:46to e-readers and that ability to be able to switch.
00:55:49For me, it's also, I read really, really quickly
00:55:52and I tend to read one book at a time.
00:55:55Like the focus problem that Kevin has discussed,
00:55:57I don't have myself.
00:55:58And so I like to read a book
00:56:00and then just move on to the next one.
00:56:01And I hate having to wait because I want everything now.
00:56:06And the fact that I get instant access with an e-reader
00:56:08and I don't have to worry about,
00:56:10is somebody going to deliver it to my doorstep?
00:56:11Do I need to go down to the bookstore to buy it?
00:56:14I can just have it.
00:56:14And oftentimes while still paying an independent bookstore
00:56:17and making sure they get a cut of the profit
00:56:20is just something really rewarding
00:56:21about the e-book and digital books in general.
00:56:24Great.
00:56:25And it doesn't give you paper cuts.
00:56:26Kevin, a chance to respond.
00:56:29I just want to say,
00:56:30I don't think I've ever gotten a paper cut
00:56:31from reading a book.
00:56:33You're going to now.
00:56:34I think-
00:56:36You need to be reading more of those
00:56:37really big tabletop books,
00:56:40with the super thick pages,
00:56:42you'll be getting a ton of paper cuts.
00:56:43That Taekwondo one I had when fifth grade,
00:56:46oh my God, all over my fingers.
00:56:49But yeah, no response from me there.
00:56:52And our final question for you, Kevin,
00:56:56while doing the research for this episode,
00:56:58one of the things I saw that came up more often than not
00:57:02for the side for printed books
00:57:05is the experience of marginalia.
00:57:08I know that e-books have this ability now,
00:57:11but many people that I read opinions of
00:57:15thought that it's just nothing in the,
00:57:19just not even close.
00:57:21It's an order of magnitude different to them.
00:57:24Do you think marginalia is important?
00:57:27Is that something as a reader you participate in?
00:57:31And do you think that is part of what makes the book
00:57:35on your perfect technology?
00:57:37Yeah, I mean, the marginalia in an e-book reading experience
00:57:40is one that's just imitated from the print book, right?
00:57:43So I don't think it surpasses it
00:57:45unless you feel very strongly about your highlights
00:57:48sinking to the cloud,
00:57:49in which case I would urge you to read digitally then.
00:57:52But no, I think writing in the margins, highlighting,
00:57:55I think those physical acts actually help
00:57:58in terms of helping you synthesize
00:58:01and remember things that you're experiencing.
00:58:03My issue with reading on electronic devices
00:58:05is that the advantages of them
00:58:07is that they are frictionless,
00:58:09but I actually think friction is a good thing
00:58:10when you're taking in art,
00:58:12when you're taking in information,
00:58:14when you're trying to learn,
00:58:15when you're trying to remember things.
00:58:16Writing in the margins is just a great way actually
00:58:19to remember things.
00:58:20It's why you take notes in school.
00:58:22It's not just so you can refer to them later.
00:58:24It's because it does something to your brain
00:58:26that helps you process it.
00:58:27And I think that experience isn't quite as replicated
00:58:30in e-reading as it is in a print book.
00:58:33That said, I'm someone that writes
00:58:34really stupid things in the margins,
00:58:36so I'll revisit some of my books,
00:58:38and I've just written LOL.
00:58:39Can I respond?
00:58:41Yes.
00:58:42Okay, my response.
00:58:43Why are you all writing in your books?
00:58:45Get a notebook.
00:58:47Everybody, just go get a notebook,
00:58:49put the little page number down,
00:58:51do the librarians and booksellers in your lives a favor.
00:58:54Don't go writing in your books.
00:58:56That's just, that's not even an argument.
00:58:59I'm just upset everyone's writing in their books
00:59:01to the point that we have a whole word described for it,
00:59:03and it's now a feature on a Kindle.
00:59:06♪♪
00:59:11Okay, fascinating POV from you both.
00:59:13It's time now to move on to closing statements.
00:59:16And up first, we have Alex Kranz.
00:59:19Yeah, I mean, I could just say
00:59:20e-books rule and regular books drool.
00:59:23I think that would be like a really evocative statement here
00:59:25because e-books do rule,
00:59:27and if an e-book gets wrecked, it's fine.
00:59:31You just dry it off, or you buy a new e-reader,
00:59:33and you still have all your books.
00:59:35You leave your copy of King Arthur
00:59:36and the Knights of the Round Table out on the porch,
00:59:40and it gets totally soaked,
00:59:41and then 20 years later,
00:59:42you're like, why are my pages all weird?
00:59:44That sucks.
00:59:45That's why books suck compared to e-books.
00:59:48But really, the truth of it is
00:59:50is that even though e-books are, I think,
00:59:52substantially better at a market improvement
00:59:54over the traditional book,
00:59:56what's really, really nice about them
00:59:58is that they provide for a lot of people.
01:00:01Everyone who says that they make you ill or sick
01:00:03or something like that
01:00:04is generally proven to just be like a normal book nerd.
01:00:08And you can technically write in the marginalia.
01:00:12Is that what it's called?
01:00:13You can write in your books on an e-book,
01:00:15but you shouldn't, and you can just go get a notebook.
01:00:18You can just write in it like a five-star binder.
01:00:21You get yourself a Trapper Keeper.
01:00:22You write all your notes in there.
01:00:24You can organize them.
01:00:25It'll look beautiful.
01:00:26You can put little stickers on it.
01:00:27I think that is really, really crucial.
01:00:29And you can do that with both books and e-books.
01:00:32But ultimately, I just think that e-books
01:00:35are a really, really powerful new medium
01:00:37that provides opportunities for a lot of people
01:00:39that might not otherwise have the opportunities
01:00:42or access to libraries,
01:00:43which are an endangered species in the United States.
01:00:46So support your public library.
01:00:49Go check out some books, e-books specifically,
01:00:51and that's why e-books are the best.
01:00:54And a note for our listeners
01:00:56that were born in the 21st century,
01:00:58a Trapper Keeper is a fancy binder from the,
01:01:02or I believe the early 90s
01:01:04that had a fabric covering and a zipper and-
01:01:07There was unicorns.
01:01:09Unicorns, pockets, all kinds of things.
01:01:12All right, Kevin.
01:01:13I don't think I'm gonna reach the kind of person
01:01:15who thinks only about efficiency.
01:01:16It's true, the e-book is a more efficient form of a book,
01:01:19whatever that means.
01:01:21I'm here to appeal to the reader
01:01:21who doesn't think of books as merely content.
01:01:24I want to speak to the person
01:01:25that sees not just the value of books as a medium,
01:01:27but also wants to see a future
01:01:29where making books is healthy and sustainable,
01:01:31because those are the conditions I think we should hope for
01:01:33for all artists, writers, and creative people.
01:01:36To say otherwise is to wish for a future
01:01:38where a large hydraulic press
01:01:39smushes everything violently into an iPad.
01:01:42I'm an author.
01:01:43Kranz is an author.
01:01:44Many of our friends are authors of fiction, of nonfiction,
01:01:48and for the friends that are a little crazier, of poetry.
01:01:51Not one of them would prefer you read their work
01:01:53as an e-book instead of print.
01:01:54No editor, no publisher
01:01:56would prefer you read the digital version.
01:01:58Every independent bookstore could use your business,
01:02:00and you should shop there,
01:02:02unless you want a future that's just Amazon.
01:02:04And for the folks out there who want to save a few bucks
01:02:06because their imagination
01:02:07is that the e-book is less expensive,
01:02:09I think that's the logic of a cheap person.
01:02:12It's the same kind of argument
01:02:13that leads people to leave bad tips at restaurants,
01:02:15because the core of that argument is entitlement
01:02:18and a lack of appreciation of understanding
01:02:20what goes into making the things you enjoy.
01:02:22In this moment where AI threatens creative industries,
01:02:25I would challenge us to think about the people
01:02:27who make the art we enjoy,
01:02:28challenge us, and make us think differently.
01:02:33You waited until the end to call me out like that?
01:02:36Wow.
01:02:37I can't, and I don't even have a rebuttal time?
01:02:41I just- This is outrageous.
01:02:43Only a minute and 26 seconds, too.
01:02:45That was impressive.
01:02:46Okay, I'm just like,
01:02:47I don't care about winning this debate.
01:02:48I just want people to think Alex Kranz is a bad tipper.
01:02:51Yes.
01:02:54Which isn't even true.
01:02:57Man, I'm going to get so much hate now for tipping 5%.
01:02:59It was one time, guys.
01:03:01Just one time.
01:03:02All restaurant records.
01:03:03It was an accident.
01:03:05Okay, Vergecast listeners,
01:03:06what do you think?
01:03:07Did Kranz make the case for e-books,
01:03:10or was Kevin right about the perfect technology
01:03:13that is printed books?
01:03:15Let us know what you think by calling 866-VERGE11,
01:03:19or email us at vergecast at theverge.com.
01:03:21And let us know what you think of this format.
01:03:23What other topics you'd like us to debate?
01:03:25There's a whole lot more stuff
01:03:26from this conversation at theverge.com.
01:03:28We'll put some links in the show notes,
01:03:29but also read theverge.com.
01:03:32It's great.
01:03:33Only found in e-books.
01:03:38All right, we got to take one more break,
01:03:40and then we're going to do a question
01:03:41from the Vergecast hotline.
01:03:48All right, we're back.
01:03:50Let's get to the hotline.
01:03:50As always, the number is 866-VERGE11.
01:03:53The email is vergecast at theverge.com.
01:03:56We love all your questions,
01:03:57and we try to answer at least one on the show
01:03:59every single week.
01:04:00This week, we have one of my favorite questions in a while.
01:04:03I don't play favorites, but this is my favorite.
01:04:05It's about MP3 players.
01:04:08Hey, Vergecast.
01:04:09This is Anonymous from San Diego, California.
01:04:12I have a question that I can't really
01:04:15I have a question that I can't really figure out
01:04:19if there's a modern solution to,
01:04:21maybe you can help out with.
01:04:22I work in the military,
01:04:24and there's certain aspects of my job
01:04:27that we're not allowed to have Bluetooth,
01:04:30that we're not allowed to have cameras,
01:04:32and so there, for a while,
01:04:34I had to carry the light phone, too,
01:04:35because there was no camera on it,
01:04:37so I could use it where I was working.
01:04:39But the thing that gets me is having music
01:04:42that I can carry around with me
01:04:44and not have some sort of external attachment,
01:04:47whether that be Bluetooth or Wi-Fi.
01:04:50And I'm just wondering, is there any other solution
01:04:53other than buying an old, old iPod off of eBay
01:04:58and using that?
01:04:58Is there no modern solution?
01:05:00Because it seems to me that everything has
01:05:02Bluetooth or Wi-Fi,
01:05:04and what I'm looking for is just a strict MP3 player
01:05:08that has headphones out,
01:05:09like a three and a half millimeter headphones out,
01:05:12like no Bluetooth, no Wi-Fi.
01:05:14Something I have to either load on a SD card
01:05:17or maybe plug it in my computer to add the music,
01:05:20but I was just wondering,
01:05:21maybe somebody somewhere inside your place of business
01:05:25has an answer or a fix.
01:05:27If I ever hear back from you,
01:05:29I would be super ecstatic to see what you guys come up with.
01:05:32Thanks, I love you guys.
01:05:34Okay, so every once in a while,
01:05:35we get a question on the VergeCast hotline
01:05:37that sends somewhere between one and all of us
01:05:40just deep down a rabbit hole.
01:05:43This one happens to our producer, Andrew Marino.
01:05:45Hi, Andrew.
01:05:46Hi, David.
01:05:47So what'd you find this time?
01:05:48Okay, so yeah, this was actually kind of hard.
01:05:50Like a lot of this stuff is connected to the internet.
01:05:53You have to use Bluetooth to connect to it.
01:05:57Sony still makes Walkmans,
01:06:00and a lot of them are very high-end.
01:06:03They're basically an Android phone.
01:06:06It's like has Android on it, touchscreen.
01:06:08That's all connected to the internet,
01:06:09but they do make one Walkman for $80.
01:06:14It looks like an iPod Nano.
01:06:15Okay, wait, can I just quibble with that
01:06:17for just a quick second?
01:06:17So you just held it up to the camera as we're recording.
01:06:20And what I would say is if you imagine an iPod Nano,
01:06:22but the iPod Nano you would find on Timu,
01:06:26or if you searched on Alibaba Express,
01:06:30it's a real we-have-iPod-Nano-at-home kind of situation,
01:06:33at least from what I can tell.
01:06:35Yes, it's an iPod Nano without a scroll wheel, yeah.
01:06:38Okay, yeah, that's right.
01:06:39Yeah, Sony still makes a Walkman MP3 player.
01:06:43What is great about it, it is not connected to the internet.
01:06:46It does not have Bluetooth.
01:06:48It is exactly what this person wants.
01:06:50It has only eight gigabytes of memory on it.
01:06:54It's not a lot, but that's enough
01:06:57to swap a bunch of stuff out.
01:06:59I was easily able to just plug this right into my Mac,
01:07:03drop songs into it like a flash drive,
01:07:06and it showed up immediately on the MP3 player.
01:07:09I brought it over to a PC, plugged it into a PC,
01:07:13same thing showed up, dropped a song into it
01:07:15like a thumb drive, and it showed up on the player.
01:07:19It works just, it works great.
01:07:21I feel like there's a catch coming here.
01:07:22What is the catch?
01:07:24There's actually not a huge catch.
01:07:27It doesn't sound amazing.
01:07:28Okay.
01:07:29I'm actually surprised how easy it is to get one now.
01:07:34It's $80, you can get one on Amazon,
01:07:36you can get one on Sony's website.
01:07:38It has micro USB, which is not great.
01:07:39There's a catch, yeah.
01:07:42I would also like to note that it has an FM radio in it,
01:07:46so when you plug in your headphones,
01:07:48your headphones act as a little antenna,
01:07:50you can listen to the radio,
01:07:52and I think that's just a beautiful thing.
01:07:54That's cool, and it has a headphone jack,
01:07:56which seems very important.
01:07:57It has a headphone jack, yeah.
01:07:58Okay, wait, so what is the full name of this thing?
01:08:01I'm assuming it's some insane hexadecimal nonsense
01:08:04like Sony likes to do.
01:08:06It is the NWE394 Walkman digital music player.
01:08:11That is the fakest sounding name I've ever heard
01:08:12in my life.
01:08:13Okay, so this is good news.
01:08:16This thing exists.
01:08:17I was thinking we were gonna end up down the road
01:08:19of like modding an iPod Classic,
01:08:22which is a thing I've seen a bunch of people doing recently.
01:08:24You can actually get it to run sort of one specific app
01:08:28or just get it to connect better to modern computers.
01:08:31I thought that might be the answer,
01:08:32but this is like, you're telling me
01:08:33there is at least one half decent dedicated
01:08:36offline music device that exists in the world still.
01:08:40Yeah, totally.
01:08:40This will do it.
01:08:42If other people are looking for something like this
01:08:44but can use Bluetooth,
01:08:47the Mighty Player is another good option.
01:08:49Do you remember that one?
01:08:51That was the one that was meant
01:08:53for Spotify specifically, right?
01:08:55Yeah, it syncs with your Spotify.
01:08:57Like an iPod shuffle looking thing.
01:08:58Yeah, exactly.
01:09:00It uses the internet to sync and Bluetooth to sync,
01:09:03but it doesn't use the internet
01:09:05while you're actually using it disconnected.
01:09:07I see, okay.
01:09:08So that is a fun option if you can do Bluetooth.
01:09:12But yeah, the Sony one, no Bluetooth, no Wi-Fi.
01:09:16You're all set to go.
01:09:16It's like a thumb drive with a screen on it.
01:09:18Isn't it wild that that feels like sort of magical
01:09:21now that you can just plug a thing in,
01:09:22drag some MP3 files and it just like works?
01:09:25What a concept.
01:09:26It is, yeah.
01:09:27I will say it is kind of odd
01:09:28that Sony is making this thing as a low-end device
01:09:32because you would think the people
01:09:33who might want something like this
01:09:34are also the people who want the kind of high-res,
01:09:37super high-fidelity audio that you're talking about.
01:09:40To make it as kind of an entry-level device
01:09:42is a little surprising.
01:09:43I wonder if Sony imagines this as mostly a thing for kids
01:09:46instead of super-duper music fans.
01:09:49That's probably right.
01:09:51Maybe for people who work on military bases, we don't know.
01:09:55I mean, listen, there's a lot of them out there.
01:09:57All right, well, no reasonable person should be required
01:10:00to remember that bottle name.
01:10:01So we'll put the link in the show notes.
01:10:03But Andrew, this is like the most successfully
01:10:06we've ever answered a Hotline question.
01:10:08This is great.
01:10:10We just found the thing.
01:10:11Happy to help.
01:10:12Anonymous, I hope that helps.
01:10:14Let us know how you feel about your cool new Sony Walkman.
01:10:17Andrew, thank you as always.
01:10:21All right, that's it for the VergeCast today.
01:10:22Thank you to everybody who came on the show
01:10:24and thank you as always for listening.
01:10:25There's lots more on everything we talked about.
01:10:28Tons of Quibi coverage.
01:10:29The Verge was alive during Quibi,
01:10:31unlike the Roku Netflix player a million years ago.
01:10:33So we have coverage of the whole life of that company
01:10:35and it is wild to read in retrospect.
01:10:38Plus lots of stuff on e-ink devices
01:10:40and lots of stuff on books.
01:10:42Tons of stuff.
01:10:43Check out theverge.com.
01:10:44We'll put some stuff in the show notes.
01:10:45But as always, read the site.
01:10:47Again, it remains a very, very, very newsy summer.
01:10:50So keep it locked.
01:10:51This show is produced by Andrew Marino,
01:10:53Liam James, and Will Poore.
01:10:54The VergeCast is a Verge production
01:10:55and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
01:10:57Neely, Alex, and the gang will be back on Friday
01:10:59to talk about whatever news is going on.
01:11:02I'm on vacation,
01:11:02so I don't really have to worry about it for right now.
01:11:04But there's a lot going on.
01:11:06I will miss them terribly.
01:11:08I miss talking about the news.
01:11:09They're gonna be back.
01:11:10Lots to cover.
01:11:11I'll see you next week.
01:11:12Rock and roll.