Cardiff City win reaction and Sunderland striker hunt latest
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Depot.
00:23My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:28Pleasure to see you boys.
00:30Good start to the season for Sunland, I think it's fair to say.
00:332-0 win over Cardiff City in Regis Libris' first competitive match at the club.
00:39It goes from Luke O'Neill and Jack Clarke sealing all three points for the Black Cats on the road.
00:44Phil, you were at that match, I mean, how impressed were you with Sunland's performance on Saturday?
00:51Yeah, I didn't quite know what to make of it actually.
00:55I still don't to an extent in that, like, it was just a completely different game and performance to what I was expecting.
01:02Like, from both teams, obviously, having watched Cardiff for the last couple of years, and you know, Sunland fans will remember from the games,
01:09they've always been quite direct in the past.
01:12And Sunland, we kind of thought we're going to be back to being like really possession-based, high-pressing.
01:17And actually, the game was the complete opposite, really.
01:19Cardiff dominated the ball, they dominated the territory.
01:22And, you know, Sunland were, you know, sitting quite deep, counter-attacking, but they did it really well.
01:28So that was the sort of encouraging thing, was that they were really well organised,
01:32they rode the waves of pressure when they came really well, didn't concede many chances.
01:37Paterson made one really good save early on from, I think it was Gutas, when he flicked a header back from a cross after a corner.
01:44So it was like a completely different game and performance to what I was expecting.
01:48It was disciplined, controlled, with a little bit of quality at the end.
01:54So encouraging, not what I expected.
01:57And it's going to be really interesting to see how the next few weeks of the season goes,
02:00because I still don't really feel like I have a handle on what Sunland are going to look like under Le Brice.
02:05It's certainly not the game he was expecting.
02:07He was pretty clear with me that after.
02:09So it was encouraging, but not necessarily in the ways I thought was going to be going into it.
02:14I mean, there's got to be a certain amount of positivity, James, about the fact that Sunland were able to, as Phil says,
02:21concede so much possession, but first of all, keep Cardiff at arm's length and second of all, still pick up three points.
02:27I mean, it kind of had the feeling of a game that maybe last season Sunland wouldn't have won.
02:33Yeah, I think there were positives to take from the game, obviously.
02:36I think it's a real boost, isn't it, when you've got a new manager and you come in and he wins his first competitive game.
02:42There's a lot of boxes ticked off in that performance.
02:45First clean sheet, first couple of goals, first win, first away win.
02:48I don't think you can grumble too much.
02:51I think it's positive that perhaps Sunland weren't allowed to play the game that they wanted to,
02:56yet they still managed to adapt on the pitch and find solutions.
02:59I think that's good.
03:00You know, Cardiff, for all of the possession, didn't really have too many clear-cut chances.
03:05I know Paterson, I think maybe tipped one over the bar, but that was about it really.
03:09So there was a lot of bluster.
03:10I thought Chris Willock actually looked really, really bright for Cardiff,
03:13but saying that, he didn't actually manage to create too much because Hulme did so well up against him.
03:19So I was pleased.
03:20It's always tough away from home in a championship, especially travelling that long a distance.
03:25A little caveat is that probably Cardiff had a fair few first-team players out, but yeah, very pleased.
03:33And I think it's always important to get that first win, isn't it?
03:37Because if Sunland had lost that, there's more importance on the Preston game,
03:43which you may well play a second-string team in.
03:45If Sunland didn't get a result on that, suddenly you're looking at Sheffield Wednesday at home in front of a big crowd
03:50and the pressure's maybe just starting to build a little bit, obviously,
03:53with what happened towards the back end of last season under Michael Beale and then Mike Dodds.
03:58So I think for Reggie Slabry, for the club, for the players as well, hugely important win.
04:04Hopefully they can build on it.
04:06And I just thought Sunland looked refreshed and energised.
04:08And it was a nice reminder, actually, that, OK, yeah, some of these players are good
04:13and they've had a pre-season and they've had a break.
04:15And this is a decent squad with some shortcomings,
04:19but the players out on that pitch on Saturday afternoon are very good.
04:26Absolutely. And, you know, you mentioned positives there and some really decent individual displays as well.
04:32You know, I mean, let's start with Joe Bellingham, for instance, Phil.
04:36I think it was what most chances created, most duels won, most tackles won.
04:40Obviously, instrumental in that second goal for Jack Clarke as well.
04:44A really energetic and solid performance from the midfielder.
04:49Yeah, I thought he really benefited when the game opened up a little bit later on,
04:53which I don't think is a huge surprise because what we know about Bellingham is that he's got an unbelievable work rate.
05:00He's tactically very intelligent and he can run for as long as you need him to.
05:05And I think you really saw in those last stages, as you quite rightly mentioned, the goal absolutely sums it up.
05:11Not only has he got the energy to get back and tackle Colwell,
05:15he was a sub, by the way, so he had the fresh legs,
05:17nicked the ball off him and then go again.
05:20It's actually him who then picks the ball up and carries it to the edge of the box to feed Clarke.
05:24I thought he was excellent.
05:25Like I said, particularly the second half, I thought he was outstanding.
05:28First half, I thought he probably took a little bit of time to get into it,
05:30but I wouldn't be too critical of that because, to be honest,
05:33it wasn't quite working for Sunderland in the first half,
05:36so you don't expect your attacking individuals to shine in that scenario, as Lebris himself said afterwards.
05:41So I think me and James spoke a little bit after the Marseille game, wasn't it, James,
05:45where we said there's a lot of debate about Job.
05:48After that game, we really felt we could see why Lebris had picked him for that role and why he was backing him,
05:53because when Sunderland do press high and win the ball back,
05:57he's the absolutely perfect player for that position.
05:59A, because he can do the pressing in the first place,
06:01but two, he is so decisive and athletic and quick in those positions where you win the ball back.
06:07So I felt encouraged after that game coming into the season.
06:09I felt he was in a good place.
06:11Now, as it happened, Sunderland didn't really get the high press going at all at Cardiff,
06:14but I thought in that second half when there was space on the break,
06:17the way he carried the ball and picked the passes to Clarke, to Roberts,
06:21obviously it was Job's pass for Mienda's chance that he...
06:24Well, it was a good save from the keeper, but obviously Mienda should have scored as well.
06:28So I thought he was really...
06:29I was really encouraged.
06:30Like I say, after the Marseille game, I really felt I could see why he was being backed in that role.
06:34And yeah, there were loads of good performances.
06:37I think, obviously, I gave him a man to match in my ratings and stuff,
06:40done a circ in every facet of the game, was just excellent,
06:44especially when you consider it was actually his first competitive game for ages.
06:48And the other one that I just wanted to shout out, because it went under the radar at the time,
06:52and I should have given him more credit,
06:53I thought Elisa, given that he hasn't actually played a lot of football at centre-half,
06:57one of the big things I think we were all a little bit worried about coming into the season
07:01was Dan Ballard's injury because of how good he is.
07:04But actually, Elisa defended really well, especially in the second half.
07:09So there were loads of positives.
07:10Alan Brown just did what we hoped Alan Brown would do.
07:13Always in the right place.
07:14Dangerous cross comes into the box in the second half, there's Brown to hook it away.
07:18Bit of pressure, there's Brown making a run in the channel to give the player an option.
07:23Exactly what we hoped he'd be.
07:25I would like to see more in the coming weeks in terms of the all-round performance,
07:29but there were positives all over the pitch, which was really nice to see.
07:33Just on your job point, Phil, I think you actually made this point a couple of weeks ago on the podcast,
07:38but if his name wasn't Bellingham, and he was Phil Smith from Highbarns,
07:43who'd come through the academy and was playing for Sunderland at 18,
07:48I think he would almost be more beloved, wasn't he?
07:50I'm not saying he's not loved by Sunderland fans, because he clearly is,
07:53but he does seem to cop a little bit of criticism, perhaps because of the Birmingham City link,
07:56and obviously Speakman and Dodds, he's very much seen as their man.
08:00But in my opinion, he is very much there on merit, and that showed against Cardiff City.
08:05He was fantastic. A quiet first half, as you mentioned,
08:08but in the second half, he really grew into the game, progresses the ball so well.
08:12I think he could let it go a little bit earlier at times in the final pass,
08:16but I think that will come.
08:17But it was a brilliant performance, and that was borne out by the stats as well.
08:20He was top of the charts for most chances created.
08:25As you mentioned, the running he gets through, he never stops.
08:27He's 18 years old, he's so impressive, and we're almost at a stage now
08:32where we're taking him for granted at 18 years old.
08:34It's crazy how good he is.
08:36Yeah, I think I agree with you.
08:38There's a lot of, or if he wasn't called Bellingham, would anyone even be talking about him?
08:42And for me, as you mentioned there, James, I think it's the other way around.
08:46I think people are sleeping on him a little bit, of how good he actually is as 18,
08:50just because he's not Jude Bellingham.
08:52So yeah, and like you say, that's not to say he hasn't got improvement, of course he has.
08:58And he is a very different player to Pritchard, for example.
09:00I don't think he's going to create chances in the same way that Pritchard does,
09:04you know, picking passes in the final third and that little stuff.
09:07But I think he's unbelievably talented, and yeah, my opinion is it's the other way around.
09:12I don't think he's getting the credit he probably deserves,
09:15or the hype that is probably worth what he's actually doing at 18.
09:19And as I say, that's not to say that he's like the finished article,
09:23because he's clearly not.
09:23But I think he's going to have a massive season, I really do.
09:28Yeah, I completely agree, for what it's worth.
09:30I mean, I think it's almost ridiculous, it's almost too easy to forget his age.
09:36You know, it's ridiculous how far he has come already.
09:39And I think his ceiling of potential is so, so high.
09:43Yeah, I think he's going to have a huge season, I really do.
09:47Obviously, you mentioned him there already, Phil,
09:48but I just want to speak about Denis Sirkin as well.
09:51Not just from his performance point of view,
09:53but just what he almost brings to Jack Clarke's game as well.
09:57Just that extra dimension out on that left flank,
09:59a little bit more sort of natural support, the overlap,
10:02and the sort of the options for creativity that it allows Jack Clarke.
10:08Yeah, I think that's a really big factor, because, you know,
10:12it's hard enough to mark Clarke,
10:14and what teams generally are doing are putting two players on him.
10:17But that's really difficult when you've got a genuine left-footed left-back
10:20with good delivery who can go around the outside.
10:23And that is nobody's fault.
10:24Sunderland just didn't have that last season, and we talked about it loads.
10:27It was bad luck, because we understood it was difficult from Sunderland's perspective,
10:30because it's hard to sign another left-back when you've got two of,
10:33in theory, the best in the league,
10:35when fifth, because you're just creating a logjam.
10:37But when they're both injured for most of the season,
10:38I mean, Sunderland suffered so much from it.
10:41And I think it's absolutely huge.
10:43And I think the other aspect is as well, which is really interesting,
10:45because this is what Dan Neil was talking to us about after the match,
10:48is that there's a really nice balance there with Hulme and Serkin.
10:52Because, as we've all seen, Hulme can drift into midfield.
10:54He's really good in terms of using the ball.
10:56He picks nice passes.
10:57Serkin is a lot more direct.
10:59He'll carry the ball.
11:00And actually, in the first sort of 20 minutes, when Cardiff are probably on top,
11:04which, to be fair, you'd expect.
11:05It's the first game of the season.
11:06They've got a big home crowd.
11:07You kind of expect them to come out of the traps.
11:09Serkin was really effective at just carrying the ball,
11:12carrying it out with trouble, getting Sunderland up the pitch.
11:15And so I think the balance of the side is huge.
11:17And as you mentioned, I think it gives teams a lot to worry about,
11:21because if they've only got two on Clarke,
11:23and they've worried about Serkin on the overlap,
11:25and then all of a sudden you've got Patrick Roberts coming back to form on the other flank,
11:29I think there are definite positives there.
11:30I'm really careful in terms of not getting too carried away with the win on Saturday,
11:35because, like I said, there were some elements of it.
11:38Concern's probably a little bit too strong.
11:40But, you know, clearly, I think the performance wasn't anywhere near complete.
11:44And when you've just seen what Sheffield Wednesday did on Sunday,
11:48you sort of have this thing of like, OK,
11:50we're going to have a much better idea of where this team is at,
11:52I think, after the next couple of games.
11:54You know, Sheffield Wednesday fly in Burnley.
11:56They beat Luton 4-1 last night, which is an absolutely incredible result, to be fair.
12:02So I think after three games, we're going to be able to have this discussion again
12:06and be like, right, where is this team at?
12:09But loads of positives.
12:10And like you say, Serkan is massive to the balance of this side.
12:14One of the biggest issues last season, really, and if Serkan Aliyev can stay fit,
12:18it's not something we're going to be talking about a lot this season,
12:21you know, because it's something that's pretty much locked down.
12:25I mean, he only played eight times in the Championship last season, Dennis Serkan.
12:28A huge blow, and you sort of forget, really,
12:32because of the circus at Sunderland towards the back end of last season,
12:34how much of a miss he was.
12:35And I do agree that left-hand side of Sunderland's attack can be so important
12:41and so dangerous as well.
12:43I actually thought Jack Clarke was having a relatively quiet game,
12:47and I'd made a note that he'd been decent, but maybe not at his best.
12:54And then all of a sudden, he pops up with a trademark goal.
12:57And I do think Serkan helped make that during the game with his overlapping runs
13:00that maybe finally caused the Cardiff defence to switch off from Clarke.
13:05But it's one of those, isn't it?
13:07Because will Serkan stay fit and will Jack Clarke stay at the club?
13:11So, there is a slight possibility that, you know, we could be looking at a different
13:16left-hand side of Sunderland's attack at some point during the season.
13:22I mean, obviously, the Jack Clarke thing is going to rage on right away.
13:25It'll deadline day, really, isn't it?
13:27But, I mean, certainly, the Brits seems to be, you know, suggesting that he feels that...
13:33I mean, he's going to say this, isn't he?
13:34But the best place he feels for Clarke to continue his development is at Sunderland.
13:39He seems to be digging his heels in a little bit there.
13:43I think there's a...
13:45I think the message to...
13:47We first spoke about this at his first press conference,
13:51and Lebris was pretty clear that, like, he'd been given no assurances that,
13:56like, no one's going to leave.
13:57We're not selling anyone.
13:58You know, he was not for a second implying that he'd been told that.
14:02But I think where he feels, where his confidence comes from,
14:05is that I think he feels assured that it's going to take massive money.
14:10And at that point, maybe that's going to open up some interesting avenues
14:14for the club and the transfer market and what have you.
14:16I think, to be fair, like, me and James have talked about it a lot on this pod,
14:20and that you can say whatever you like about this, like, strategy, what they're doing.
14:25The striker stuff, the wage structure.
14:28The one thing you have to say is they've been pretty consistent,
14:30and they haven't flogged off players.
14:31They've had opportunities to sell most of their squad for a quick profit,
14:35and they've never done it.
14:36And so I think there should be some confidence, at least,
14:39that it's going to take big money.
14:41You know, they're not going to just let Clarke go for a fairly modest fee.
14:45So I wouldn't be reading too much into Lebris' comments.
14:49I think, obviously, he's obviously going to say that.
14:51I think we can take a lot of heart from the fact that, as happened last summer,
14:56Clarke is completely unmoved by the speculation.
14:59He's plugged in.
15:00He's tuned in.
15:01He's really motivated.
15:02He's enjoying his football.
15:04And I think that'll stay the same if no bid comes forward.
15:07I don't think we should be getting too excited yet,
15:09though I still think there's a lot to run in this window.
15:11I think there's still a lot of clubs that will be keeping one eye on that situation
15:15and will maybe move at the end.
15:17So, you know, it's too soon for me to start saying I'm getting hopeful
15:21that Clarke's going to stay.
15:22I still think there's a lot to do.
15:24But the exciting fact is that, at the moment,
15:28he's still really motivated to play for Sunderland.
15:31The one thing I do feel good about is that sometimes, you know,
15:34you've seen it in elsewhere in the division, actually,
15:36where there's little sagas developing, players pulling out squads,
15:39players being really affected by the talk.
15:41I think we can know now that that's not going to happen with Clarke.
15:43And if no bid comes forward, his form's not going to dip.
15:46We know you're going to get Jack Clarke until January at the earliest.
15:49So, yeah, I'm feeling pretty positive about that situation.
15:53I'm just not getting too excited yet because, like I say,
15:57especially if he puts in another two performances like that.
16:00That might encourage someone to go and put a bid down.
16:07And, I mean, obviously, we've sort of alluded to the striker situation there.
16:11It was Elisa Mayenda who got the nod, as we expected him to, on Saturday at James.
16:16I mean, did you see much from him in terms of, you know,
16:20he can be the man to certainly see Sunderland
16:23through this tricky period until they can bring a striker?
16:26I like him. He's very young.
16:29It wasn't, I would say, the best game that I've ever seen a Sunderland striker had.
16:33I thought he was competent. I thought he put himself around.
16:36He kept working, which is hugely important.
16:39He did sort of create a few little half chances for himself.
16:44One went really wide and then another was at the keeper.
16:46But that chance in the second half, if he could have just put that away,
16:50I think, as a striker, you've got to score.
16:52Phil mentioned earlier, it was a reasonable save by the keeper.
16:56Reasonable is probably unfair, actually.
16:57It was a good save by the keeper.
16:58But I think, as a striker going through there,
17:00he wasn't under really any pressure from any defender.
17:04So, he's got to put that away.
17:06And it's such a shame, you know, because if he does,
17:09we're almost, you know, in dreamland as Sunderland fans.
17:12It reminded me a little bit sort of different in a way.
17:16But when Hemiya raced through against Southampton and he didn't manage to score
17:20and that seemed to sort of sum up his whole season in a way,
17:23it could have been so much different had he put that in.
17:26It could be the same with Maianda.
17:27But, you know, I think Lebris is well aware that he can't rely on Maianda for 46 games.
17:33He needs to be in understudy.
17:34He needs to drop in and out.
17:35He needs to come in, you know, for cup games, 20 minutes.
17:38He's definitely got something.
17:39He's obviously really, really fast, which is good.
17:43And I think his control is decent.
17:45So, it's just match practice and it's been around that first-team squad.
17:50You know, I think Job, who was playing the furthest forward of the midfield,
17:56they weren't really on the same wavelength at times.
17:58But I think that'll obviously come.
17:59So, it's just very early days in his Sunderland career.
18:03And you do feel for the lad in a sense because he was signed as an 18-year-old
18:09and he wasn't really what Sunderland fans wanted or needed at the time,
18:13which isn't really through any fault of his own.
18:15Obviously, Sunderland would have seen him more as a developmental signing.
18:18But it's just so happened that Sunderland haven't since managed to get that experience
18:23trying to sign an over-the-line.
18:24So, you know, these lads have been asked to sort of fill in.
18:28And it is harsh on them in a way.
18:30But I think he had to score for me that fill-in.
18:32I know you mentioned the goalkeeper save.
18:35But if that had gone in, it's a whole different take on a Sunderland career, don't you?
18:39You talk about fine margins in football.
18:41And he may well get another chance and he buries at some point.
18:43But that would have been hugely beneficial if that had just slotted in the corner.
18:48I did have a decent view for that from where I was in the press box.
18:52That's not as easy as a chance as it looks on the replay.
18:55Because of the actual time he's got with the defender coming across
18:58and the keeper coming off his line.
19:00I don't think that's as easy as a finish as people think it is.
19:03But that's just my opinion.
19:04I think the thing I would say about Meander is I think he's a real talent.
19:08And I definitely think Sunderland have got one there.
19:10And there's aspects of his game that are already pretty good.
19:12I think his movement's half decent.
19:14We've seen at times he's got a really powerful shot.
19:17There's a lot to like about him.
19:18The bit about his game that I don't think I'm being unfair.
19:21I think the bit about his game that isn't yet a championship standard is his hold-up play.
19:27That, at the moment, and that's not really a criticism.
19:30He's a 19-year-old lad and you're asking him to play against Callum Chambers
19:33with however many Premier League appearances.
19:35And Gutas, who's a really imposing centre-half.
19:38He's just not ready to hold the ball up yet and to win those battles
19:41and get his back in and make it stick.
19:44And I raise that because if he's going to play for the next couple of games
19:47while this striker drags on, then Sunderland need to make sure that they're using him properly.
19:53Because there were times in the game where they were inviting pressure on themselves
19:57because they were going along and, to my end, they were under pressure.
19:59And he's just not ready to do that yet.
20:01And so the ball was just coming back and Sunderland were getting pinned back.
20:04So I like Mienda.
20:06I don't really, you know, yes, he probably should have scored.
20:08Yes, as big as his game, he'd be better.
20:10I think there's positives to be taken from the progress he's already made in the year.
20:14And I actually think he's got a bit of a part to play this season.
20:16But definitely we saw that his centre-forward play isn't yet at championship standard.
20:21I wouldn't expect it to be.
20:23So Sunderland either need to get that striker soon,
20:26or it's something that, in their reflections on that game,
20:28they need to have a think about and need to work on.
20:30Because, you know, they're going to invite pressure if they're going to try and use him
20:34like a champion, like a keeper more, which he definitely isn't yet.
20:40I mean, we also saw a brief cameo from Nasrussen coming off the bench.
20:45One of the things that Sunderland sort of became almost infamous for
20:48last season was rotating that centre-forward when it wasn't quite working for anybody.
20:52And it felt like, you know, players were getting a couple of games
20:54and then dropping out of the team, getting three and then dropping out of the team.
20:57I mean, do you think that Le Bris will persist with Mienda?
21:01Or could you foresee a situation in which, you know,
21:04Nasrussen maybe is given the nod against, say, a Burnley, for instance?
21:08Yeah, I don't know.
21:09Yeah, it's hard.
21:10I think he'll stick with Mienda for now.
21:11I mean, Russen will play tonight.
21:13So, you know, that's on Russen to try and deliver something and put his...
21:17The thing is, I do quite like Russen as an impact sub at the moment.
21:22I think that fairly well seems to suit his game.
21:25He did it really well against Marseille, didn't he?
21:26He came on and won that penalty, which was a really nice bit of centre-forward play.
21:30And I thought actually he brought some fresh legs on Saturday.
21:34And without doing anything huge in the game,
21:36I actually thought he helped him a bit.
21:37Well, he actually made a little run in the box for Clarksville
21:41just to create a tiny little bit of disperse.
21:43I mean, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't really groundbreaking,
21:45but it was a nice little move.
21:46Yeah, I thought the subs were good on Saturday.
21:50If a little bit late, I was like, in my head,
21:52like screaming from about 55 minutes, like,
21:54come on, you need to change this, you need to change this,
21:56because it's, you know, it's only going one way at the moment.
21:59It took a little bit longer to make the subs than I would have liked,
22:02but I thought the two were good.
22:03I thought playing really off the right in that game situation
22:07was a really, really good move,
22:08because obviously he didn't want to take Job off
22:10because of, you know, the athleticism he's got.
22:12But I thought Reid just picked up nice positions and did really well,
22:15and I thought Roosen was a good sub.
22:17So at the moment, I think, and I would think it's a good thing
22:21if he just sticks with that little, I think, meander start
22:24and giving him a chance to build some rhythm.
22:25But having Roosen as a bit of an impact sub,
22:27I think is probably the way to go.
22:29But listen, if Roosen scores twice tonight,
22:32then he's going to play on Sunday, isn't he?
22:33And that's the sort of the gauntlet laid down for him, really.
22:37This is, you know, we're not going to talk too much about pressing
22:41because it might have happened by the time
22:43people sit back and listen to this.
22:44But, you know, there's always this thing with,
22:46I get why the Carabao, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of the Carabao Cup.
22:49There's no money in it for AFL clubs,
22:52and the Premier League clubs don't care about it.
22:53I'm not really sure about its place in the game anymore.
22:56But, you know, there's six or seven players
22:58who need to be looking at this game going,
22:59you know, this is important.
23:01Like, this is a big, big game for me.
23:03And Roosen's definitely one of them.
23:06The thing is, for me, with Roosen, Jason,
23:08like, is he an out-and-out centre-forward?
23:11I think he's possibly a wide forward or a winger.
23:15And can he play up front by himself?
23:17I'm just, I'm not convinced.
23:18Although I like him as a player,
23:19and I know he's played up front by himself for Sunderland,
23:22but I just think he'd be best in a two,
23:23which Sunderland don't play that way.
23:25Although they do sort of play that way out of possession
23:29or on the wing.
23:29I just, I'm not convinced he's a centre-forward.
23:33Yeah, I think that's a fair point.
23:34I was talking about this the other day,
23:35I can't remember with who,
23:36and it kind of, kind of get the impression
23:39that if you just have that big man
23:40just flicking, flicking balls over the top
23:42and he's running in, he's got that pace.
23:44And he does, to be fair to him,
23:46look to have a pretty decent awareness
23:49when it comes to his movement as well.
23:50You know, he is quite sharp.
23:51He just hasn't maybe had the fortune
23:54to turn that into goals for Sunderland yet.
23:56But I suppose the other issue you've got as well, James,
23:58is that if he is more of a wide forward,
24:01then, you know, he doesn't get in this team,
24:04does he, you know, for being honest.
24:07Exactly, Paddy Roberts on the other,
24:09and then Mundell's look good in pre-season.
24:10Obviously, Pivard is still to make his debut
24:13for the club.
24:14So I don't know, I think Phil's probably right.
24:16Impact's up for the moment
24:17and I guess Liberec sort of goes from there.
24:21We are now 24 minutes into this podcast
24:23and we haven't yet mentioned Alexandra Mendy,
24:25which I think must be some sort of record
24:27for this summer.
24:28So we might as well get it out of the way.
24:30Some pretty heated comments
24:33from French journalists over the weekend,
24:36you know, perhaps suggesting that Sunderland
24:38aren't being serious about their valuation
24:42with their bids for Mendy.
24:43I mean, is there any sort of update
24:45on where the Blackhats stand with this?
24:46Or is this one that's just going to roll
24:48and roll and roll until it doesn't, I suppose?
24:52Yeah, I think it's going to roll.
24:53Yeah, I think to be fair,
24:55I think the one thing that's pretty obvious
24:56is that things have shifted a bit
24:58because of the takeover.
25:00I think, you know, when I,
25:02when the first broke during that game,
25:03I think it was against Nottingham Forest, wasn't it?
25:05And I said, like, look, you know,
25:06the player might want to move and that's great,
25:08but it's not done yet.
25:09And having said that, you know,
25:11clearly there was, there'd been positive talks,
25:13otherwise that story doesn't come out,
25:15even if there was a lot of work to do.
25:17It does seem like the takeover of the club
25:19has pushed things backwards a little bit,
25:21both in terms of just delaying it,
25:22but obviously maybe the goalposts
25:24have moved a little bit as well.
25:26So I think that,
25:28I think there's a bit of a game of chess
25:30at the moment going on,
25:31where as Sunderland don't want to move on anything
25:33and lose out on something else
25:35that they've got lined up.
25:36And I think there's that really interesting question
25:37is that what time,
25:39at what point do you just have to say
25:40we need to get this done
25:41and we just need to move?
25:42And that's not just Mendy,
25:43that's maybe on one,
25:43some of these loan options that they're looking at.
25:46You know, we spoke to Labreze yesterday
25:47and he said, you know,
25:48we are looking at Premier League loans
25:50as a possible avenue.
25:52I think it's fair to say
25:53that there's an added layer of complexity to that,
25:56just because of the Birstow thing
25:57did not work out last season.
26:00You know, that proved to be more of a hindrance
26:02and a help really.
26:02And you've got to be really, really careful
26:04if you go down that road again,
26:05that you don't make the same mistake
26:06and assume that a strong record
26:08in under 21s football
26:10is going to translate to the championship,
26:12even if the players are really talented.
26:14So I think at the moment,
26:16and I think maybe the slightly frenetic reporting
26:19that you're seeing
26:19about all these different kinds of plays,
26:21I think that reflects the fact
26:23is that there is a lot happening.
26:24There are a lot of irons in the fire,
26:25but some are sort of trying to be careful
26:29to not go too soon on one,
26:30miss out on the other.
26:32So, yeah, I don't know.
26:33I hope to be proved wrong,
26:35but I think we've got a little bit of time
26:38to wait on that one still.
26:41I mean, you mentioned all these names
26:44that have been thrown about potential loan signings
26:46and there's been a real flurry in recent days, James.
26:49I mean, one that sort of came
26:51and went in about 24 hours was Dan Scarlett.
26:54He's got to Oxford United,
26:55so some of them definitely aren't signing him.
26:56One that broke last night was Daniel Jebison,
27:00Keith Downey from Sky,
27:01suggesting that someone are looking
27:04at the Bournemouth striker.
27:05I mean, again, that's one
27:07that reportedly might not be happening.
27:10According to some sources,
27:11it's all very confusing at the moment,
27:12but in a hypothetical sense,
27:15do you think that Jebison
27:16or someone of that ilk
27:17could be a smart sign for something this summer?
27:20I think so.
27:21I think obviously when these links break
27:24and the type of profile these players are,
27:26obviously Scarlett and Jebison
27:28don't have huge goal-scoring records.
27:31The two players are in slightly different points
27:33in their careers,
27:33but I'll come on to that.
27:35There's a lot of anger
27:35that maybe these players aren't proven
27:37and Sunderland aren't sort of going for what we need,
27:42which is experience
27:43and somebody with a proven track record.
27:44I think actually what it shows to me
27:46is that they've got that Alexander Amendi in the fire
27:48and they're probably trying to use the loan market as well.
27:52Now, as Phil mentioned last podcast,
27:55they may run into difficulties
27:56with a player like Jebison
27:58because if they're going to sign somebody like Mendi,
28:00can they guarantee Jebison the game time?
28:01He's going to want a player.
28:03So if you're signing a striker
28:04for two, three, four million euros,
28:06whatever it is,
28:07then Jebison might not be an option.
28:09I think where the Scarlett type player comes from
28:12is that understudy maybe,
28:14and I hope whoever comes in
28:16is better during the Sunderland career,
28:17but a Mason Burstow type profile sort of signing.
28:21So for me, it actually,
28:24obviously I'm frustrated with the lack of a signing
28:26in that striking area,
28:27but far from being frustrated,
28:29I think for me,
28:30it actually shows that they're looking
28:31possibly at two players in that position.
28:34Again, where that leaves my anger,
28:35I don't know whether they're looking for somebody
28:37who could maybe deputise on either wing.
28:39I don't know,
28:40although Sunderland are fairly well stocked there.
28:42Maybe it's a player that can
28:44maybe drop into a number 10 position as well.
28:46I'm not sure.
28:48But to me, it sounds like,
28:50you know, reading between the lines
28:51and the reports is that they're looking
28:53for maybe two in that area.
28:54Whether they get two,
28:56I'm not sure,
28:57given Sunderland's strike record,
28:58they may well end up with none.
28:59But yeah, it makes for an interesting end to the window,
29:02but it's clearly something
29:04they're trying to address, isn't it?
29:08And I mean, another name that's been mentioned, Phil,
29:10is that of Will Langshire,
29:12a young Tottenham striker,
29:13you know, very much sort of unproven.
29:16At senior level,
29:17I mean, is that a bit of a gamble
29:19to bring in a player like that?
29:21Should someone perhaps be looking for a player
29:22who's maybe had a year or two
29:24at EFL level or more already?
29:27Well, again, like,
29:28and James raises a really good point,
29:29and the thing I would stress again is,
29:31like, it depends how much you need to do.
29:33Because if the squad stays the same as it is now,
29:36then there's probably not much of an argument
29:37for adding an unproven striker of that type.
29:40Now, if, for example,
29:42Clarke was to go,
29:43and if, for example,
29:45Hemi was to go out on loan,
29:47Meander,
29:48now that's very unlikely at the moment
29:49because he's playing,
29:50but let's say for argument's sake,
29:51you get a good loan bid for Meander or whatever.
29:55In theory, you could yet have,
29:57you know, two or three players
29:58going out of Sunderland's forward group.
30:00And so then, you know,
30:01it makes obvious sense why they'd be looking
30:02at potentially a proven striker,
30:04a versatile forward like a Langshire,
30:06who maybe could play out wide through the middle.
30:08I think it's,
30:11what we're seeing at the moment
30:12is a reflection of the fact that
30:13Sunderland are trying to prepare for every scenario.
30:16One of those scenarios is that Clarke stays,
30:18they have a settled team,
30:19and they need to add an experienced striker to that
30:21to almost complete the puzzle, if you like.
30:24And the other scenarios that they're playing for
30:25is acknowledging the fact that
30:27it's not all just about incomings
30:28in the last couple of weeks.
30:29It could be about outgoings as well.
30:30And you need to be across every,
30:32you know, potential scenario
30:33so you're not caught cold.
30:34So that's the one thing I would say
30:36is that, like,
30:37we shouldn't be looking at purely
30:38through the prism of
30:39Sunderland need one striker,
30:40who's it's going to be.
30:41There's actually still a lot of variables
30:43between now and the end of the transfer window.
30:45And it's Sunderland's job,
30:46it's the recruitment team's job
30:48to be prepared for unforeseen circumstances.
30:50And they might be looking at a player now,
30:52doesn't mean they're going to sign them,
30:52but they might be looking at players now
30:54going, well, what if this person goes?
30:55What if that person goes?
30:58So I think the one thing I would say
31:00is that we should be prepared
31:01for a lot of twists and turns.
31:02I don't think we should be looking at this going,
31:04there's one striker deal to be done,
31:05who's it going to be?
31:06I think we need to see that
31:08there's a lot of things that could still happen
31:10in Sunderland after almost
31:12game every scenario in their planning.
31:14I think in terms of that
31:16senior experience striker,
31:18as in an Alexandre Mendy or somebody else,
31:22I don't think it's wise to maybe
31:24play the brinkmanship game
31:25and go down to the wire
31:26because we've seen Sunderland
31:27miss out on their targets previously.
31:29Kiefer Moore, for example,
31:31I get that
31:33can have probably been
31:34a little bit tricky at the moment
31:35and the picture's shifted significantly
31:38and there's been rumours
31:40of four or five million euros,
31:41do Sunderland fans want Sunderland to pay that?
31:44On a player who's never played in England,
31:46it does present a little bit of a risk
31:52and I do get that argument,
31:53but I just think this has gone on
31:55for so long now
31:56that that experience centre forward
31:58does have to come in
31:59and I get the preparing
32:01for different eventualities,
32:02as Phil mentions,
32:04and potential outgoings as well.
32:07But in terms of signing a senior centre forward,
32:09I just think it needs to get done
32:11and it needs to get done
32:12sort of sooner rather than later.
32:13That said, it'll probably go down to the wire,
32:15but it's going to be so hard
32:18to justify another window
32:19if that type of player doesn't come in.
32:23Obviously, the flip side to that
32:24is that if Sunderland win games,
32:26then that'll be forgotten about,
32:27but you suspect that
32:28if Sunderland do want a challenge
32:29for the top six,
32:30which is La Brice's stated aim, by the way,
32:32and is the ownership stated aim,
32:35then that centre forward has to come.
32:36You look at all of the teams
32:38that get promoted from the Championship
32:41and League One, League Two,
32:42all of the teams that do well in the Premier League,
32:43you know, unless you're Man City pre-Harland,
32:45who are just a complete freak,
32:47then you've got a really strong centre forward
32:50who can score goals
32:51and goals from different positions as well.
32:54And as we've said on the podcast before,
32:56you're looking at like 10-15.
32:58I think we don't need somebody
33:00who's going to score
33:01all of the goals for Sunderland.
33:03We just need somebody who can chip in
33:06and create a threat from central areas.
33:08Absolutely, absolutely.
33:13Phil, you sort of mentioned in passing there,
33:14you know, potential outgoings in attacking areas,
33:17potential outgoing in the midfield area as well,
33:19sort of Reg La Brice,
33:21little bit vague on Pierre Equa's future,
33:24you know, suggesting that it's a possibility,
33:27you know, nothing nailed on, of course,
33:28but a possibility that he could leave the club.
33:31I mean, where do you stand on that?
33:33You know, do you think that Sunderland
33:35would be well advised
33:36to give a hold of Equa this summer?
33:39I said when we talked about this
33:44when the report first came out
33:45that I think maybe we were focusing
33:48a little bit too much on Equa's dip last year.
33:50And if you look at pretty much any player
33:52who starts playing senior football,
33:53they go through dips
33:54and they go through peaks.
33:56And we saw that even with,
33:56maybe not to the same extent,
33:58but we saw it a bit with Dan Neil, for example,
33:59in his first 18 months.
34:01So I made the point then
34:03that we should still be thinking of Equa
34:04as the player who was attracting
34:06those big bids last summer.
34:09And we shouldn't be rushing him out the door
34:10because there's no reason to think
34:11that with a bit more experience
34:12under his belt,
34:13you won't find that consistency
34:14because we've seen that happen
34:15with so many players.
34:17The flip side of that is,
34:18is that at the moment,
34:20and a big part of that
34:21is because of his injury,
34:22but you've got Dan Neil,
34:23Chris Raby and Alan Brown.
34:24It's a position of relative strength,
34:27I think, in the squad
34:28once you add Joe Bernoullis
34:30to that sort of general picture as well.
34:33And so for me,
34:34it's all about whether somebody comes
34:35and puts that big bid down.
34:37If someone did come and put a,
34:39you know, I'm just plucking figures
34:40out of the air here,
34:41but something, you know,
34:42towards seven and a half,
34:4310 million pounds,
34:45that was a significant bid
34:47that allowed you to be even stronger
34:50in terms of rejecting bids
34:51in other parts of the pitch
34:52that allowed you to do
34:53a little bit of extra business
34:54in other areas before the end of the window.
34:56I would see the logic
34:58and but I really do think
34:59that someone shouldn't be rushing
35:01to try and move Ekwer on
35:03because, you know,
35:03he's had some injury issues
35:04and last season wasn't quite
35:05what we hoped from him
35:06because I think, you know,
35:07there's every reason why
35:08these clubs are still looking at him
35:09because they understand
35:10that the potential is absolutely huge.
35:14So I would be disappointed
35:15to see Ekwer go.
35:16However, if there was to be
35:17a sale this summer,
35:18I can see why that might make
35:20more sense than, you know,
35:21some others in different positions.
35:23So I definitely think
35:25we shouldn't be rushing into that.
35:26But I have to say that
35:27I can potentially see it happen
35:30if the bids are significant.
35:33I mean, obviously Phil's
35:34mentioned it there, James,
35:35but certainly the sort of quick start,
35:39the impressive start
35:40that Alan Brown has made to life
35:42on Wearside
35:44would potentially soften that blow
35:46quite a bit, wouldn't it,
35:46if he were to continue
35:47on that trajectory?
35:49Yeah, I have really mixed feelings
35:51about this because I'm
35:51a massive Pierre Ekwer fan.
35:52Obviously, he did drop off
35:53a little bit last season,
35:54but I still think his ceiling
35:56is really, really high.
35:57So I'd be really disappointed
35:59to see him leave.
36:01I think we spent a lot of last season
36:03complaining about not having
36:05much depth in midfield.
36:06Now we've got a little bit
36:07of depth in midfield
36:08and some really,
36:09really competent options.
36:10You know, Ekwer coming off the bench
36:13is a real, real player.
36:15You know, you'd back him
36:16to get in that team at some point.
36:17There's likely going to be injuries
36:18at Sunderland
36:21because there is every season,
36:22there is at every club.
36:23So you'd want a player
36:24of that profile who's, you know,
36:25bordering on first-team involvement.
36:27I think, you know, obviously
36:28he's had that injury setback,
36:29but Lebris hasn't really talked
36:33too much about him.
36:34And even when he hadn't had
36:36that injury setback,
36:37he was, I think he came on
36:38in the second half against Gateshead
36:40earlier in pre-season.
36:41So if we're reading a little bit
36:42into that, maybe I'm not sure
36:44where he fits in with Lebris's plans.
36:46I'm not sure.
36:47So, you know, I feel really,
36:49really conflicted about it.
36:51However, if you said that Ekwer
36:52was going to be the one to go,
36:54if Sunderland are going to sell
36:55one player this summer,
36:56which they might not necessarily do.
36:59And you had to pick one
37:00out of the players who have been
37:01linked with moves away.
37:02So maybe Clark, Dan Neal,
37:06maybe Trey Hulme,
37:08you know, Dan Ballard was linked,
37:10Anthony Patterson was linked.
37:12I would probably pick Pierre Ekwer
37:13as the one I would be most comfortable
37:15with going because of that
37:16little bit of depth.
37:18And Alan Brown has been
37:20a really fantastic signing so far.
37:22Phil mentioned on the pod earlier,
37:23but he looks so comfortable.
37:25I think he actually brings a lot
37:26of what Pierre Ekwer doesn't have
37:28currently, which is a little bit
37:29of know-how, street smarts,
37:32which Ekwer's going to get.
37:33But I think as well,
37:35if you can get Pierre Ekwer playing again,
37:37I think his value is only
37:38going to go one way.
37:40I think it's only going up
37:41because of the type of player he is,
37:42the profile he is.
37:43You know, good midfielders
37:44are really hard to come by.
37:45We talk about strikers,
37:46but midfielders are a really,
37:49really hard position to sign.
37:50And I think it's telling
37:51that he's had interest
37:51from the Premier League.
37:53So I could see him go.
37:55I would be sad to see him go.
37:56But I think also Sunderland
37:57should think long and hard about it
37:58because I think he's a quality operator
38:00in that position.
38:02We could get his value higher
38:03and sell it at a later date.
38:04And I think he could be
38:05an important player for Sunderland
38:06in terms of the midfield depth as well.
38:11And finally,
38:12just looking ahead to the weekend,
38:13obviously Sunderland,
38:15Halston, Sheffield Wednesday,
38:16the first home game of the season.
38:18And as you sort of alluded to earlier,
38:20it's going to be a tricky one, isn't it?
38:22Sheffield Wednesday came
38:23flying out the blocks
38:24against Plymouth at the weekend.
38:26Yeah, and they were so far ahead
38:28of Sunderland in that
38:29last game of last season.
38:30Now, obviously,
38:31there was big caveats
38:33about Sheffield Wednesday
38:34conference fighting for something.
38:35I expect Sunderland to be
38:36a lot stronger on Sunday
38:38than they were last week.
38:40As I mentioned before,
38:40I think these two games,
38:42Sheffield Wednesday
38:43and then Burnley the week after,
38:44I think we'll be able to,
38:46you know, we'll pencil
38:47that in for a pod discussion.
38:48I think we'll have a really good handle
38:50on where this team's at
38:51because I think Cardiff,
38:53Sheffield Wednesday and Burnley,
38:54I think that'll give us
38:55a really good overview
38:56of the division, I think.
38:57And I think we'll have
38:58a really interesting insight
39:00into where Sunderland are at.
39:01But yeah, I think Sunday
39:03is a massive threat, if you like.
39:05I think Sheffield Wednesday,
39:07if everything stays the same,
39:08you know, overall stays to the season,
39:10I think they could be a real
39:12top-half contender,
39:13maybe even a bit more.
39:14And obviously,
39:15they're going to be flying
39:16with confidence on Sunday.
39:17So I think it's a huge test.
39:19I think it's a really,
39:20really difficult game.
39:21And I think we're going to learn
39:22an awful lot about
39:23Le Bris and Sunderland.
39:25It's really interesting,
39:26that game, actually,
39:27because I'm a massive fan
39:28of Danny Rowland
39:29and I like Sheffield Wednesday
39:30as a club.
39:31But is there an element,
39:32I only watched the highlights,
39:34but it's really difficult
39:35to even judge Sheffield Wednesday.
39:36They played really well.
39:37But is there a case of
39:39a little bit of Plymouth
39:40being really, really poor
39:41and they haven't made the signings
39:42that want the runner
39:43and new manager?
39:45So you can sort of get
39:46an inflated sort of
39:49reputation of teams
39:50early on in the championship season,
39:52looking at the likes of QPR
39:53and Huddersfield Town over the years,
39:55who've had good starts
39:56and then gone into a struggle.
39:57And similarly with Sunderland as well,
39:59was that just a really poor
40:00Cardiff team that Sunderland
40:02have managed to put the sword?
40:03And when they come up
40:04against a better team,
40:05how are they going to fare?
40:06As Phil mentioned,
40:07it's really, really fascinating.
40:08But I agree with Phil
40:10on Wednesday on the role.
40:12I think he is a top quality operator.
40:14And if his trajectory
40:16continues on the way it's going,
40:18he could be a Premier League
40:18manager very, very, very soon.
40:23Very much tempted to agree
40:24with you, James.
40:25Very much tempted to agree.
40:26I think that's probably
40:26all we've got time for this week.
40:28And thanks for joining me,
40:29James and Phil.
40:31Thank you for watching along.
40:32Of course, you and I
40:33on the Sunderland Echo
40:34for all things Sunderland
40:36and the RAW will be back next week.
40:38Plenty of reflection,
40:39plenty of analysis
40:40and hopefully some striking news
40:42as well, lads.
40:42Let's keep our fingers crossed.
40:46Well, I won't hold my breath.