The Scotsman Football Show 19/08/24
Sports editor Mark Atkinson joins Graham Falk to discuss the latest goings-on in Scottish football.
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00:00Hello, and welcome back to the Scotsman football show for another action-packed week of Scottish
00:11football. My name is Graeme Fogg. I am your host for the show this afternoon. I'm joined
00:17by Mark Atkinson. Mark, how are you doing? You all right?
00:19I'm good, Graeme. How are you?
00:21Yes, not bad. Action-packed weekend as always. When is it not? Few places we could start,
00:26but let's go with Rangers to begin with. A 2-0 win against St Johnson. I think you
00:32could say underwhelming. Certainly not the most convincing win, but maybe not the main
00:36talking point from the weekend, especially in that game. There was a, shall we say, a
00:40show of unity at the end there. What was your thoughts on that?
00:44It was slightly bizarre, wasn't it? A half-empty Hamden. Maybe not even half-empty, three-quarters
00:49empty Hamden. A very, I would say, tepid performance against St Johnson. They won.
00:57That's the most important thing in a cup competition. You're thinking maybe a couple of players will
01:02applaud the fans and they'll slope back into the changing rooms, but no. The whole squad
01:06and the manager climb over the advertising hoardings and they do what is quite a rare
01:12show of unity and applause to the fans behind the goal. I was a bit surprised at first.
01:19But then ultimately, when you think about it more, maybe not a bad thing. I mean, what's
01:24wrong with a bit of bonding with a fan base that there's actually been a lot of issues
01:29with recently? They're not at Ibrox, well documented. These fans are having to go to
01:35a different stadium. They're forking out for a cup tie. This is not part of the season
01:40ticket package, so you're going to have to spend extra cash. Why not go and say thank
01:44you to them? I think a lot of criticisms come Rangers way and that's what happens in this
01:49game. But I saw nothing wrong with it really at the end of the day. And it might have meant
01:53the world to some fans. You just never know. Having their heroes come as close to them
01:58as that and applaud. No, no bad thing. Maybe the result could have been better and that
02:04might have framed it slightly differently, but I don't think it's bad. It shows good
02:08management from me. Philippe Clement said afterwards that he pre-planned it. I quite
02:12like that. It's a man thinking about the wider picture and gone right. We need to try and
02:16raise some spirits here. Let's go and do it.
02:19I think it's really important, isn't it? When you look at the way that Clement's done it
02:22and he's pre-planned it, things are difficult at Rangers at the moment. When you're looking
02:26at everything you've just mentioned about the move from the different stadium, the performances
02:30are poor. I think there was a piece on the site that I wrote today about how Rangers,
02:37the Europa League run maybe clouded an awful lot of the fact that they'd fell quite far
02:41behind what was Angpastor Pogba's Celtic at the time. That hasn't really been able
02:47to be clawed back when there was a real opportunity to do it last year. That sort of started,
02:51I don't want to say a rot, but that started a distaste and an anger, I suppose, between
02:56the club and the fans. Then you've got getting knocked out of the Champions League really
03:01early. You've got an underwhelming end to last season. Well, underwhelming is maybe
03:06a kind word. You've got an underwhelming start of this season. You've got a whole new stadium.
03:12It's akin to something, I think, and I know that the situation in the club is different,
03:16but I don't know if you remember Jürgen Klopp did it. I'm sure they came back from 2-0 down
03:19against West Brom when you first went to Liverpool and everyone said it was cringey and it was
03:23terrible. But it worked out all right for Liverpool, so maybe it's a line in the sand
03:28this time, isn't it? Yeah, there are moments in a season where you do need to connect with
03:35your fan base. Quite often it happens later in a season when there's lots happened. There's
03:41no reason why it shouldn't happen now. I don't think it did any harm. That's the ultimate thing.
03:47What harm did it do? It's not like those fans barracked their players. They just won,
03:53so there was at least some sort of feel-good factor there. I hope it helps the fans. I hope
03:58it helps the Rangers players that are there. It's a contrast to Tuesday night when they lost the
04:05Dynamo Kyiv and there actually was a little bit of resentment from the fan base. Therefore,
04:10maybe they just felt the need to heal and build some bridges. No harm done. Let's see how they
04:16get on next week back at Hampden again, I think, for Ross County at home on Saturday.
04:21They're going to have to get used to Hampden. There's a suggestion, of course, that they may
04:24have to play longer than late September, so this might be a more permanent arrangement than perhaps
04:30was hoped. We did see some of the steel arrive in Southampton over the weekend,
04:35so fingers crossed for Rangers fans. We never know, but I think it's better for everyone
04:39involved as soon as Rangers are back at Ibrox. The better for everyone, really. Fans, players,
04:44teams. I think that's their home. That's where they want to be. Moving to the opposite side of
04:50Glasgow, Celtic. Not too many problems there. Not really any need to show any level of unity like
04:56Rangers might have done at the weekend. They just look formidable. That's three games they've won
05:02before half-time, two games they've won within 20 minutes, if we're completely honest. How do you
05:06stop Celtic? Well, you just hope Celtic stop themselves at the moment because the problem
05:13when you play Celtic at this point of the season, when Brendan Rodgers had a full summer pre-season
05:18and he's got all of his big players fit, is that you're playing a fresh Celtic. There's no European
05:24football midweek for them to deal with, so you've got that starting XI. Maybe you could argue
05:31Kiyoko would have come in this weekend. He was out injured, but largely speaking, all the big guns
05:36are there. They're just firing. The midfield trio of Matt O'Reilly, Rayo Hattati and Caryl McGregor
05:43were outstanding again against Hibs. They suffocated Hibs really early, took control of the game,
05:49got the goal, which meant Hibs' game plan is out the window, and made it very straightforward.
05:55I suppose this time around, Hibs did score at 2-0. Lovely goal by Nikola Kukarovic,
06:01but then Hibs just defended poorly afterwards. The third goal, another mistake from the
06:08Marvin Ekpoteta-Joseph Bursic relationship. That happened against Samoan a couple of weeks ago,
06:13and it happened again here at Poorback Pass, and the keeper didn't clear it, so that helped Celtic.
06:18I thought Celtic were maybe actually a little bit beneath what they had shown in the first
06:21two matches, but it was still light years ahead of Hibs. Brendan Rodgers can be very pleased,
06:26and they're only going to go one way if they keep that squad together. The big question is,
06:32will they hold on to Matt O'Reilly between now and August 30th? I think that's the key one.
06:38I also wouldn't be surprised if someone looks at Rayo Hattati between now and then as well,
06:42because he's been playing very well. Finally, over the injury issues he had at his calves last
06:48season, he looks like a really dynamic midfield presence right now. For as long as Celtic have,
06:55even 80% of that team in place, they are so far clear of the rest, and that includes Rangers
07:01at this stage. Very good place for them to be right now. At the moment, I can't see anyone
07:08in Scotland touching them. It's about how Celtic can strengthen for the Champions League. I suppose
07:14the one thing for Celtic is, this time last year, they lost to Kilmarnock in the Cup at this stage,
07:19which was a real blow for them and a real blow for Rodgers so early in his second tenure,
07:24but this time around they made sure there was going to be no repeat of that. We can talk about
07:29a treble this early because there's no doubt about it. I've seen people even speaking about
07:34invincible season, which is a big reach for any team because no one's perfect, but you touched
07:39on freshness there as well. I was at the game with Hib Celtic last week and Rodgers was asked about
07:45the retirement of Colin McGregor and Steve Clarke being in the crowd and he was asked if he feels
07:51any pity and you kind of had to be there. I think some people have seen the video, he just smiled
07:55like a Cheshire cat and I think he knows that he's not just... I mean, I know there's a lot of talk
08:00about Celtic wanting to spend more money. I think when you're looking at it domestically,
08:05you don't really need to do much. No, you don't need to do much more whatsoever.
08:08The big question though is, like you say, O'Reilly as well and I do think there's question
08:12marks with Hattati, but there's another question mark over Kiyoko who's had that kind of shoulder
08:17injury where I think we've seen previous players before, it can pop in, pop out and it needs
08:23surgery at some point. Do you think that there's a potential that Celtic maybe need to look at
08:28a third choice striker if you prefer because is he going to need surgery? Could that be an issue
08:33that could hinder them? Well, I think the problem you have with Kiyoko is he's a different type of
08:39striker to what Rodgers has normally played with at Celtic. Now, Adam Ida is the new signing,
08:45probably more of a stereotypical Rodgers-Celtic striker. First time round he had Odson-Edward
08:50and Moussa Dembele, these two really powerful strikers who could hold the ball up as well as
08:57run the channels. Kiyoko's not really a hold-up player, he doesn't really keep Celtic up the
09:01pitch, he's all about his nimble movement and link-up play in that regard. I often wonder if
09:08Kiyoko is going to be Celtic's first choice striker the longer this Rodgers era goes on.
09:13He's a great player to have around you, he's a perfect branch, Posta-Cochlu, but the fact that
09:18they spent nine and a half million pounds on Adam Ida suggests that he probably will in time,
09:22if he plays well, be the man they turn to the most. And that begs the question, do Celtic go
09:28and sign another Adam Ida type player so they've got the backup to that kind of striker? You're
09:34always going to have Kiyoko's injury issues as you say in the background. Your shoulder can't
09:40keep popping out. If there's surgery that can solve it, at some point you bite the bullet.
09:45Kiyoko's 29 years old, he needs to probably decide at some point when am I going to get this fixed.
09:53When it first materialised you wondered sort of 18 months ago, well he's not going to get it done
09:57because he's playing so well and he might get moved to England, but at 29 is Celtic the highest
10:01level he's going to be at? Quite possibly, in which case go and get it done and come back
10:06like a new signing in the winter. I used to rule when he fell down, you and I were both there,
10:12you look at him and go he looks so diminutive, he looks fragile, he's that type of player.
10:18So yeah, if it was me I'd get it done and I would go and buy somebody. I think Celtic,
10:22if they were to lose Kiyoko, would need a third striker. Dyson Maida can play there,
10:26but Dyson Maida is much more effective out on the wing. So I would always consider him as their
10:33first-choice wide player. It's a question though, who do you bring in? And it's not going to be one
10:38of the Spendelts though, so they may well decide to go down that route. I suspect Kiyoko will be
10:44a topic of conversation when Rodgers next meets the board to discuss what happens there.
10:50Before we completely leave Celtic, you touched on Matt O'Reilly and I think
10:54we've discussed that for six, eight months, maybe at this point it feels like a long time.
11:00The closer it gets to the window the more you would be confident, but does there become a point
11:04where Celtic don't tell him even if they do get that 25 to 27 million bid because it can't be
11:10reinvested in this window because it's too late. Does there become a point where he becomes a
11:13not-for-sale at any price? I'm not sure. I suspect there's been conversations between O'Reilly and
11:20the Celtic hierarchy dating back to January when Atletico Madrid came in and there's an
11:25understanding I believe between the player and the club whereby there is an amount of money and
11:30if it's triggered then thank you for your service, you can go now. Celtic have always been very good
11:37in transfer windows about not selling too many players at the same time, so I suspect they
11:43probably are prepared to lose one of their key players in this transfer window. They wouldn't
11:48be prepared to lose two. I'm not even sure it would matter if it came on at 10.59 on August
11:5430th or this week. I think they would ultimately say right our model is to sell. In O'Reilly's case
12:02there's been interest now for a long time therefore we probably feel we owe the player his move.
12:07O'Reilly needs to go at some point. He needs to get better. He's not going to develop. You're watching
12:11him play against Hibbs in the last couple of weeks and he's strolling through games. At this age now
12:17he needs to go to the next level. So I think Celtic wouldn't necessarily be held to ransom
12:23by the time. It's more about making sure they only sell one key player. If you sell O'Reilly,
12:31Hatate has to stay. You can't, I don't think you can operate with both. You could probably get by in the
12:36next six months with Hatate, McGregor and say Bernardo or Iwata if that's the route you want to
12:42go down. Or indeed they may sign somebody. They've been linked to a number of midfielders in the past
12:47week or so. So I think there's a resignation in Brendan Rodgers where he goes
12:54yeah I might well lose O'Reilly. The big question is, is somebody going to pay that money? I'm surprised
12:59Atalanta haven't found it. Atalanta must have enough money in their war chest. They won the
13:04Europa League last year to buy him. I am surprised that they haven't reached a deal with them and
13:11they've now signed a new midfielder perhaps. They're not going to come back in for O'Reilly.
13:16But we all know there's clubs in England that have been big admirers. Russell Martin at Southampton,
13:22will he come back in potentially given that he's worked with them in the past and they need
13:28more strength in midfield? So the O'Reilly transfer saga is definitely not over yet
13:33and it wouldn't surprise me if Celtic's resolve is tested towards the end of the window.
13:39Yeah it surprises me that Atalanta hasn't gone back in for O'Reilly because it feels like I
13:45don't know if anyone's used Depop or Vintage but you get people who offer £150 under the asking
13:49price you want and they just don't ever come back and it feels a little bit like that. They've gone
13:52to £20, £21.5, £22 and you just think that little bit extra gets you what you really really want.
13:58But as you touched on Russell Martin, he brought him through at MK Don, signed him from Fulham I
14:03think, had him on trial for a good couple of months and signed him up and he was the one who
14:07first really helped him flourish and play first team football. So it wouldn't surprise me especially
14:12if you look at what Southampton did at the weekend in their first game, break down 10-man
14:18Newcastle when they really should have done. They could do with some extra goals from other places
14:22so maybe that would twist his arm a little bit. We'll move to the capital but kind of stay on the
14:27same game. Let's discuss Hibbs because that is an entirely different conversation. Big new squad,
14:35lots of new players, new manager that's not completely new to the place obviously but
14:39it's the first time he's been at the top of the, had the top job. But Hibbs are,
14:46okay it's against Celtic but they've lost the last two games within 20 minutes and they certainly
14:50went impressive against St Mirren. You can't panic three games in but how concerned should
14:56Hibbs fans be? I wouldn't be overly concerned just yet. I think you're right to mitigate it
15:04with Celtic. Playing Celtic twice in a week at this stage of the season is a pretty rough
15:09hand to be dealt although had they taken care of Celtic last month they wouldn't have had to play
15:13Celtic. So self-inflicted to a degree. Hibbs played Dundee on Saturday at Easter Road,
15:19they then played Kilmarnock the following Sunday at Rugby Park after Kilmarnock's European ties.
15:24I think Hibbs need to get a win in one of those two matches just to ease any pressure that is
15:30building on David Gray internally at Hibbs. There's no pressure on him right now because
15:35they will give him as much leeway as possible to get it right. I think the fan base are largely
15:41on board with David Gray but if you lose those two matches or even just draw them,
15:47they'll start to be murmurings. Hibbs also need more players. You rightly touched upon the fact
15:53that they've brought in a number of players. They still need more. They're still light in defence.
15:59They've only got three recognised centre-halves, one of which, Rocky Bushiri, is probably not a
16:04first choice. So you need to get more in there and they also need some creativity at midfield,
16:08hence why they're trying to sign Dundee's Luke McCowan. So if they can get those players in the
16:14building then Hibbs should be okay. There were little shoots of recovery yesterday. They scored
16:21from Mikola Kukarevic and then actually had some nice moments in the game where they caused Celtic
16:26a little bit of issues against a weaker team. They probably would have done better. So yeah,
16:31I'm not panicking for Hibbs just yet. I'm not concerned for Hibbs right now
16:35but I would like to see some, maybe not even a performance, just some points on the board
16:41before the month closes. Otherwise you'll have others around Hibbs that will start to hit the
16:46panic button. It's interesting you mentioned the caveat of the next two games as opposed to just
16:51the next game because I don't think anything's must win at this point but you've got to feel
16:54sorry a little bit for Hibbs because they've played Celtic back-to-back which is rough for anyone. Yes,
17:00they didn't perform against St Mirren. That can happen to the best of us and you're looking at
17:04the Dundee game and going well, you know, that becomes maybe at least get a point and Dundee
17:08are in tremendous form. 1-6-1 at the weekend of, you know, the good start of the season against
17:13Dundee United. It was a good result I thought at the time. Tough place to go to on the first game
17:17of the season in a derby and then of course, you know, we've seen how well they've been playing
17:21recently and they've got that 3-1 win against Hearts but I think the Kilmarnock game, this
17:26aside, that's also not the start of the season well so there's opportunities there for them but
17:30one side we may be expected to do a little better this season with the start they had was Hearts,
17:35lost at the weekend against Falkirk, deservedly lost against Dundee the week beforehand.
17:41Good against Rangers, could have maybe won the game another day but is the concern there because
17:45the ambition is maybe slightly different with Hearts compared to Hibbs? Yeah, I was there on
17:50Saturday, the game I was covering this weekend and I didn't think Hearts would lose but going
17:56to that match I thought, tough match, Falkirk are on a great run with the step-up in level and the
18:00quality in the Hearts squad, they'll have enough to win and you know what, in the first 10 minutes
18:06Hearts had three guilt-edged chances that they should have scored and they didn't and they let
18:12Falkirk off the hook and then the game became like a proper cup tie and Falkirk took advantage
18:18and by the end of it those Hearts fans that remained were really angry and even the ones
18:23that had left midway through had booed the team, they booed the decision to take Jan Danda off,
18:28Stephen Mason the head coach took off Danda about, I think it was close to the 60 minute mark and
18:33that really didn't go down well with the fans and what it showed me was that there's still a slight
18:38disconnect between the manager and the Hearts fan and an element of the Hearts fans, it's a minority
18:44but they're quite vocal and they're quick to jump on Naismith when things go wrong
18:49and at the moment that draw against Rangers, you're right to reference it because they played
18:53really well that day, they probably should have won but actually look at the bigger picture,
18:57competitively Hearts have only won one game in nine if you go back to last season, they lost
19:02all of their pre-season matches including a defeat by League Two Fleetwood so there are, I think when
19:08you look at, when you piece all that together even though Stephen Naismith got a new contract
19:12only two weeks ago, Hearts fans are probably going look we need to see a little bit more here,
19:18they go into Europe on Thursday against Victoria Pilsen who are a pretty seasoned team at this
19:23level in the Europa League playoff, they're guaranteed group stage football come what may
19:29but they have to go to Pilsen and I think even a narrow defeat is a success but if they get
19:35soundly beaten that puts a lot more pressure on Naismith and his players, they play Motherwell
19:40on Sunday, Motherwell aren't a great place either so that's a game where you need to hope them to
19:45get to get a result, I think also look at Hearts last season Graeme, Hearts finished third and got
19:52to the semi-finals of both cups, they're already out the League Cup to a lower league team that is
19:59a blot on Stephen Naismith's copybook whether he likes it or not so he needs to, I almost
20:05wonder if it's more important for him to get a victory ahead of him versus David Gray just
20:11because of where they are right now, I think Hearts, he just needs, this is always an element
20:17of Hearts fans that you're a very quick jump on a manager, you want to keep them quiet and I think a
20:22win is required sooner rather than later. It's a really interesting one with Hearts because
20:28they for me on paper and for Potsdam have played on paper of course had maybe the best recruitment
20:33of the summer off the top of my head, like each player they brought in I thought yeah that's
20:38really good and even the ones that you didn't know a great deal about like Gerald Taylor had a
20:42fantastic debut, we'll not talk about his own goal the week afterwards that maybe changed it but
20:46and you've got Shankland up there who hasn't scored yet and I know we're three games in and I
20:52know he didn't start the game on at the weekend and Shankland's not going to go too many games
20:56without scoring a goal but there's many things for Hearts to be successful like the signings have been
21:02good, the performance last season was good in the Cups as well you touched on there, they've got
21:07arguably the most lethal striker in the league although I'm sure some people will disagree,
21:11I think his stats show that. There's a lot of reason to be positive, can you put your finger
21:17on why they haven't started as well as they should because it's hard to navigate isn't it?
21:22Well this time last year they also started the season quite poorly under Naseem, it took a while
21:26to get going but they're much more settled this season. Last season Hearts had a
21:33who is the manager conversation because Naseem couldn't take over as head coach until they were
21:39out of Europe. This time around there's been none of that in the background, they got their
21:43business done really early, I mean before the signings were pre-contracts so they've all
21:48come in and there's very few excuses to Hearts' poor start to the season other than the fact
21:53that maybe Rangers and Dundee is not an easy start to the premiership season. Falkirk are a
21:59good team but Hearts should be beating Falkirk and I think that's where when you look at hips
22:05and goal there's some maybe some mitigating circumstances. With Hearts there's less of them,
22:10they didn't have a Premier Sports Cup group campaign to get through, they've only just
22:15entered Europe right now, there's no real reason for them to be poor. I think Laurence Shankland,
22:22he's not started the season particularly well and when he doesn't score Hearts do tend to
22:29struggle so they need him to be back firing sooner rather than later. I think Hearts are
22:35definitely a team to watch the next couple of weeks, we'll learn a lot about them.
22:39Before we go, there is two teams we do need to touch on, it would be wrong and remiss of us not to do so.
22:44We've touched on one of them slightly already, Falkirk, they've had a tough decade where it seemed like
22:50things were perpetually difficult in terms of they'd either get relegated or they'd have the
22:55pain of not really doing quite enough to get out of the league. Last season they were completely
22:59unbeaten which is fantastic, they've had a great start to this season, on top of that they've had
23:04a cup upset if you prefer and then Spartans also is the other team I wanted to touch on but
23:09on those results and on those games, first and foremost Falkirk, they had relegation,
23:15they had struggles, they had all sorts of stuff, they've had an invincible season last season,
23:19they've now come back, they've had three wins out of three, including that cup win.
23:23When do you start looking at Falkirk as a potential second promotion? You could now
23:27really, couldn't you? They've had such a good start. Yeah, you're right Graeme, now you can
23:32go Falkirk are a contender for the Championship. The Championship is a very open league this year,
23:37there's no big fish, Dundee United obviously came up last season. You could argue that Rafe Rovers
23:43have regressed because they've sacked their manager since then and they've lost some of their players
23:48while Falkirk continuity John McGlynn, their manager, has done an exceptional job, he's lifted
23:53the place and what was really, really striking about being at Falkirk on Saturday was that it
23:58feels like a place where optimism is coursing through the veins of all the supporters.
24:03Everyone's pulling in the same direction, they're an upwardly mobile club and when you don't lose
24:10very often, that's a great habit to be in. They've also played a really nice brand of football,
24:17tidy midfielders, they've got some really, really pacey forward players. They're right back who just
24:24controlled the game really, Adams, he was fantastic. They were just a really strong team and
24:31I wouldn't want to play them in the next round, I know Celtic have got them in the next round of
24:34the Cup so they probably will take care of them but you wouldn't fancy yourself if you're up
24:39against them right now at their place at the Falkirk Stadium. I actually would go as far
24:45to say, Graeme, that I think they're favourites now to win the Championship. I think they're
24:48favourites, they've won their first two matches and it's not a particularly strong league in terms
24:54of an outright favourite. So, great times at Falkirk, they feel like a club that should be
25:00knocking the door of the top flight and they've been absent for a long time. I think many Scottish
25:04football fans would say it's about time Falkirk were back in the big time. So, let's see, a lot
25:10of football to be played but really encouraging signs at the Falkirk Stadium right now.
25:15Absolutely and I think they're set up, aren't they, for being a Premiership team if they need
25:19to be because the stadium's nice and I think you talked about momentum there before. Momentum is
25:24so underplayed sometimes, I think, in football and it's massive, especially if you've had an
25:28unbeaten season and a nice little Cup upset to start the new one. But thanks for joining me,
25:32Mark, and obviously if you want to see any of the news, views, opinions, transfer news,
25:37whatever it may be, head to scotsman.com and go into the sports section, you'll see all the latest
25:42on there. But Mark, another great week and we wouldn't have it any other way. Thanks for joining.