Do People Need Religion in our Society?
During 2010, in a collaborative effort for Islamic Awareness, The Islamic Diversity Centre (IDC) teamed up in conjunction with Northumbria University Islamic Society to bring iERA speakers AbdurRaheem Green & Hamza Tzortzis to deliver a powerful and dynamic lecture on God: Delusion or Truth?
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00:00I begin by praising Allah, God the Creator, we praise Him, we seek His help and we ask
00:26for His forgiveness and we take refuge with God from the evil of ourselves and from the
00:35evil consequence of our evil actions. Whomsoever God guides, no one can misguide, but whomsoever
00:42God leaves to go astray, no one can guide. And I indeed testify that there is nothing
00:49worthy of being worshipped except the one God and that indeed Muhammad, may God's peace
00:55and blessings be upon him, is the messenger of God. Hamza finished his talk by knocking
01:02on the door and that's where I'm going to begin my talk. I'm going to go back to that
01:07knocking on the door and I'm going to ask you a question. Without opening that door
01:12over there, can anyone tell me what's behind that door, the one over there? Unless you
01:21know, do you work here in the university? Exit and ventilation, are you sure though?
01:31It's a guess, right? But you don't really know. There could be a big green hairy monster
01:37there perhaps. Maybe not, you know. But actually all I'm really trying to do is, although our
01:45intellect is hugely important and both me and Hamza would argue vigorously that in order
01:54to understand God, in order to understand religion, we have to use our intellect. And
02:02there may be other ways but we would probably, both of us, argue that the intellect is one
02:07of the most important tools that we have. But your intellect has a limit and I was demonstrating
02:13there the limit of your intellect. When it comes to something that is unseen, when it
02:19comes to the unseen, all you can do in reality is guess. You could take an educated guess.
02:26But I want to up the ante a bit here and I want to propose to you something that I'd
02:33like you to think about. Imagine that you really need to know what is behind that door.
02:42In fact, let me suggest to you as a thought experiment for this evening that knowing what
02:51is behind that door is absolutely essential to your survival. Knowing what is behind that
03:00door is essential to your survival and you have a limited amount of time in order to
03:08decide what is behind that door. You can't open the door. You're not allowed to open
03:15the door but you have to come to a decision. If your decision is not right, it is going
03:21to affect your life in a most horrific way that you possibly can't even truly comprehend.
03:28That's my thought experiment. And imagine there are five or six people or maybe more
03:35competing for your attention, trying to persuade you that they can actually tell you what is
03:44behind that door. One of them may even be trying to persuade you that there is nothing
03:51behind the door. There is no door. The door is an illusion. There may be someone trying
03:57to convince you of that. There may be different people who are trying to convince you what
04:04is behind the door for various different reasons. But amongst those people, there is
04:10one who is going to be able to tell you the truth. I'm actually really trying to give
04:18you an example, as probably you might be aware, of different religions in the world. Often
04:27people present this argument. Okay, it makes sense that there's a God. It's logical. It's
04:33rational. The most rational proposition, and I would just really sum up my opinion
04:39about Hamza's quite detailed and philosophical discussion, is that the most rational conclusion
04:48of the rational mind is that this universe has an intelligent, powerful creator, and
04:59that there rationally could only be one intelligent, powerful creator who is transcendent, who
05:05is different from this universe. So the creator of the universe is different from the universe.
05:12But that's pretty much the limit of what we can understand through reason. And I would
05:20say that actually, by the way, it is one of the, or perhaps even the most powerful
05:29argument for the truthfulness of the Quranic narrative, that the concept of God that is
05:36taught by the Quran is exactly this concept, that this universe has been created by a powerful
05:46and intelligent being who is transcendent. By that I mean that God is not like anything
05:52in the universe. And the Quranic concept of God does not compromise that in any way by,
06:02for example, claiming that some creature, such as a human being, shares the power, the
06:08knowledge, or the attributes of God. And that would be a self-contradictory statement. If
06:14you think about it, if you're claiming that a created being has any of the power of the
06:19knowledge of the ability of God, then the whole basis upon which you build an argument
06:25for the existence of God in the first place, it falls down. It demolishes itself. So that's
06:38what I would propose, first of all, is one of the most powerful arguments, one of the
06:45most persuasive arguments, that a person should believe what the Muslims are saying. Because
06:54the similitude or the example I'm giving of the door is really the example of the afterlife.
07:00It's the example of the afterlife. It's also the example of knowing God. How can we know
07:08God? Through what means can we know God? Is there a means to know God? All of these questions
07:17and more, the ones that Hamza also introduced, the purpose of life, why are we here? What
07:24is it all for? What is the reason for our existence? These are, of course, all the questions
07:31that religions in various different ways try to answer. And there is another issue, the
07:41problem of evil. Of course, this has been raised a lot recently with the earthquake
07:48in Haiti and before that with the tsunami. And constantly there are these disasters and
07:54priests and bishops and imams and theologians and philosophers are presented. And how does God,
08:02a good God, let these things happen? And of course, there are certain atheists, well-known
08:07atheists, who imagine that this is a very powerful argument, a very persuasive argument, that God does
08:14not exist. But I'm sure if you manage to follow Hamza and his arguments, you will, first of all,
08:22and very importantly, realize that the existence or what they call the problem of evil has nothing
08:31to do with the existence of a powerful, intelligent being who has brought this universe into existence.
08:39It's got nothing to do with it. The existence of earthquakes and disasters and AIDS and human
08:46beings killing each other has got nothing to do with the question as to whether there is a creator
08:52or not. And trying to connect those two is an emotional argument. It's an emotional argument.
09:00It's not a rational argument. It's emotional. Extraordinary from people who claim to be atheists,
09:07who claim to be rational. There is no logical connection between the two things. How do you
09:14explain an organized, systemized universe? The most rational conclusion is an organizer, a systemizer.
09:22That's the gist, the very condensed gist of one part of Hamza's argument. So the real question
09:30here is why does this creator allow suffering? Why does this creator let these things take place?
09:41Why does this God create a world in which there are earthquakes and tsunamis, in which children
09:51die, in which there is rape and murder and genocide? Why? Of course, I just painted the
09:57negative things. There's a lot of beautiful positive things as well we could talk about.
10:01Love, happiness, joy, peace, tranquility, friendship, literature, society in many different ways,
10:14different physical and mental pleasures that we experience consistently throughout our lives. So
10:21we shouldn't imagine that the world is just this grim, terrible place. But the question of these
10:28evil things as they're called, evil things, is not a question about God's existence. It's a question
10:37of why. Why does the creator let these things happen? Now again, how can we know the answer?
10:45How can we know the answer? From where can we know the answer? Philosophy here really lets us down.
10:53And all ultimately we have is conjecture. And in Arabic it's called dhun, conjecture. Well,
11:00maybe this. Maybe it's an exit. Well, it looks like an exit. It's got exit written. And obvious
11:06there are some good guesses we can take. But how do we achieve certainty? This is the question.
11:13How do we achieve certainty? From where can we get certainty? How can we be sure? Well, I would
11:22propose that the only way you can truly be sure, the only way you can truly be certain as to what
11:34is the purpose of your life, what is the reason for your existence, is when the one who gave you
11:42life and the one who gave you existence tells you. It's the only way you can be sure. The only
11:52way you can be certain is when God tells you, I created you for this reason. Everything else is
11:59guesswork. Everything else is speculation. Why is there evil? And I use this word in inverted
12:06commas evil. Why is there suffering? Why do these things exist? Well, again, the only way you can be
12:14certain is when the one who created this universe and created this world and allowed these things
12:24to happen explains to us, this is why. This is the reason why. It's because of A, B, C. But I'm
12:36sure in the minds of everybody here, it begs the question. All of this begs another question. Which
12:48guy am I going to trust? I need to know. You need to know what's behind that door. You need to know.
12:53It's very important. I mean, let's take the options. Option one, right? It's pretty much shared by the
13:05three monotheistic religions. Option one is, there is going to be, you are going to die. And when you
13:15die, at some stage, there will be a day of judgment. We will be recreated, or in some traditions, your soul
13:26will be brought before God and you will be judged. You will be asked about every single thing that you have
13:32done, as the Quran describes it, every atom's weight of good and every atom's weight of evil, you will be
13:39asked about it. The tradition is pretty common. The Quran is very descriptive about what is going to happen
13:49on that day of judgment. How will it be questioned? What will the state of the human beings, their panic, their fear,
13:56their terror, the Quran describes it, the day of judgment, as one day like 50,000 years. One day like 50,000 years.
14:06Just a day of judgment makes your entire earthly existence seem like a moment of a day. That's just a day of judgment.
14:15What is to follow is even more terrifying. There is the alternative of eternal bliss in paradise or eternal torment
14:27in hellfire. Now, I told you what is behind the door is pretty important. And you've got a limited time to find out.
14:38The other alternative, of course, is suggested that you will be reincarnated. It may seem less compelling, but it's still
14:47pretty serious. I mean, I don't think I would like to be reincarnated as a cockroach or a rat or a donkey. I don't know,
14:54depends where I was a cockroach or a rat or a donkey, I suppose. I mean, if I was a dog in my mom's house, I might be quite happy.
15:01OK, but still, I don't think so. But seriously, even if you believe in reincarnation, how do you know? How do we know?
15:11But it's a possibility that's being suggested. Or is there nothing? Do you just dissipate as energy into the universe?
15:18How do you know? You've got different people making competing claims. How are you going to sort one from the other?
15:28And what do you do? What criterion? You know, this is a thing I would like to know. What criterion are you going to use?
15:39The Quran tells us that throughout history, God, the creator, has sent messengers. This is what Muslims believe.
15:52That throughout history, throughout the human history, God has sent, God has chosen individuals from amongst the human beings
16:04to remind the human beings of the things that we have been discussing here tonight, not only about the existence of God, of course,
16:12but also about our relationship with God, about the purpose of our life, about the reasons why God lets things happen to us
16:26and how we are supposed to deal with all of that, and also about the reality of the life to come.
16:34So this is what we believe. Muslims believe that God has chosen human beings to convey that message.
16:40And to some of those human beings, he gave books. So, for example, the Quran talks about Prophet Noah, about Prophet Abraham,
16:51about Prophet Moses, who was given the Torah, about Prophet Daoud or David, who was given the Zaboor or the Psalms,
17:00about Prophet Jesus, who was given the Injil, and of course, who we believe as Muslims is the final prophet, Muhammad,
17:07may God's peace and blessings be upon all of the prophets, who was also, he was given the Quran.
17:13So we believe this is the way that God has revealed knowledge about himself. He has explained to us the purpose of our life,
17:22how we should fulfill that created purpose, and the reason why things happen the way they do,
17:29that's why God has sent throughout the ages messengers, to remind human beings, to tell them and inform them about this information.
17:38And we believe that those messengers have been given signs. So let's go back to the knocking on the door.
17:45Let's go back. Right? Someone's knocking on the door, or we give our example, we've got a select group of people, right?
17:53And I asked the lady over there, who mashallah, perked up and she said, you know, this, you know, that's the way out.
18:00What did I say to her? Can everyone remember what I asked her?
18:05No, I asked her before. Yes. What did I say? Do you work in the university? Why did I say that?
18:17Why did I say just the university, right? So let me now give you an example, right?
18:25If there's five people, four of them don't work in the university, and one does,
18:32do you think your probability of choosing the right person is beginning to get a little bit more now?
18:39Yes or no? Right. But, you know, shall I just accept her claim? It's important.
18:46You need to know what's behind that door. You've got time to question. Don't say you haven't.
18:51Don't say you haven't. No, no, I want to play on my PlayStation. I want to play on my whatever this thing they call.
18:56I'm listening to my phone. I'm, I don't know. You've got plenty of time. Believe me, you've got enough time.
19:01In your life, you've got more than enough time. Ask the question. Okay?
19:06So she made a claim. I could just say, you know, she looks an honest type of lady.
19:12You know, she really does. She's got a nice smile as well. You know, that's good. That's going to convince me.
19:18I think, you know, apparently most American, you know, you know how you get to be voted a president in the United States of America.
19:26You have the biggest smile. Apparently, statistically, the guy with the biggest smile gets voted in.
19:31So I don't know. Maybe he's got a nice smile. I don't know. Do I? Seriously, but it's important.
19:38This is not, this is a really important issue. So maybe, you know, I might ask her, do you have some ideas?
19:46You work in the university. Can you prove it to me that you work in the university?
19:51She says, yeah, sure. So out of her back pocket, she pulls a pass, right?
19:57University of New, this is the University of Newcastle, right? University of Newcastle, right?
20:03Northumbria. You see, there you go. Okay. I'm in the wrong planet already. Okay.
20:09So University of Northumbria, it's written there and there's her photo and that sure looks like her, right?
20:16Now, how much more are you going to be convinced? Yeah, I mean, and then what if she tells you?
20:23Well, actually, I know what's behind that door because that's the way I take every day to my office.
20:30You know, bit by bit, you could get more and more convinced.
20:33Do you understand what I'm trying to say is that there are signs.
20:37There are things that would indicate to you whether that person is speaking the truth or not.
20:45And that's exactly what we believe that God has given to his messengers.
20:50God has given to his messengers. Right. He has given them signs.
20:57They were given things that when a person sees them and they study them and they look at them,
21:03they know that these are indications that that person must be speaking the truth and they must be truly what they claim to be.
21:12It's interesting that C.S. Lewis, he gave a criteria and he said something which as a principle of analysis,
21:26we Muslims happily accept. But we don't accept his premise, and I'll tell you why.
21:32But he said concerning Jesus, he said that either Jesus.
21:37And he said this in respect to his belief that Jesus is the son of God and presumably that Jesus is God,
21:44that either Jesus was a liar or he was deluded. He was mad.
21:51He was a madman or he was speaking the truth. And he says, well, if you look at the life of Jesus and what Jesus said and how he behaved,
22:00you can eliminate those. You can say, well, he wasn't a liar and he wasn't mad.
22:06So he must have been speaking the truth. There is, of course, another possibility.
22:11The other possibility is that what has been taught to you about Jesus is not true.
22:19And the things that you claim he said, he never actually said.
22:23I just say that because although I actually accept the basic argument, I don't accept his conclusions for that extra reason.
22:32But let's just say it's actually a totally valid analysis to make of any claim of any individual.
22:40Anything anyone claims, anyone makes a claim, they could be lying.
22:45Lying means they are purposefully trying to deceive you.
22:49They know very well that what they're saying is untrue, but they are lying.
22:54They are purposely trying to deceive you. That's one possibility.
23:00And this, of course, applies to anyone claiming prophethood.
23:04I know what God says. I know God's telling me why you're here, what the purpose of life is, where you're going to go after you die.
23:13I know. How do you know? God told me.
23:18So you can analyze. Is he truthful? Is he a liar? Is he deluded?
23:24And each different person will display different characteristics.
23:29The liar, and as I'm sure you probably most of us learn, I don't know, I learned that in my life, right?
23:37I learned that usually a lie leads to another lie, which leads to another lie.
23:42And then you have to lie to cover up the lie that came before.
23:45And, you know, you could be a good liar and maybe you could go for quite a long time.
23:48But sooner or later, the pack of cards of lies just collapses around you.
23:53Because you just have to keep on making up lies to cover up.
23:57I think most of us hopefully learned that when we were kids, right?
24:01Maybe politicians didn't. I don't know. No offense to politicians.
24:05There are some very, very good politicians and who are sincere public servants.
24:10We have maybe an unjust view of politicians.
24:14It's just a cheap joke, really.
24:16But the point being, you know, seriously, the serious point is the point about lying.
24:22It has a characteristic.
24:25Similarly, a deluded person. Now, what's the difference?
24:29A deluded person is saying something untrue, but they really genuinely believe it.
24:37That's different. You see, the person who is deluded is sincere.
24:42They actually really believe it.
24:44So they could display some of the characteristics of a truthful person, right?
24:51But actually, they are either, you know, maybe a devil or a spirit is telling them
24:58or they have some psychological problem or whatever.
25:01They truly believe that they are receiving revelation from God.
25:05But indeed, in one way or another, they are just suffering from a delusion.
25:10And I'm sure you can understand, therefore,
25:12that the characteristic of that person is very different from the liar.
25:16Very different.
25:19But there are still ways that you can identify that.
25:23The third option, as long as we agree that what we are hearing and observing about this person is accurate,
25:30then the third and only third option is that that person is speaking the truth.
25:37Now, it's very interesting because if we can apply this criterion to any man
25:42who comes along and claims that he is receiving revelation from God,
25:48that he is a prophet,
25:51maybe we can begin to make a type of decision.
25:54Because hopefully we would agree that let's go back to our people.
26:00You have to know what's behind the door, right?
26:04What process are you going to use?
26:06And I often ask people this.
26:08If someone comes knocking on your door and says,
26:11I've come to read the gas meter, I don't know here about a Newcastle, right?
26:16But, I mean, in London we live in an almost, you know,
26:20I feel we live in an almost permanent state of fear.
26:24I really do.
26:26You know, I haven't been outside to my garden for, I don't know, quite a few days
26:31because it's been pretty cold and I was away and, you know,
26:34I was on a trip abroad and I came back and sure enough, what did I find?
26:37Someone had, you know, actually crowbarred open the door of my garage
26:41and been rummaging around in the garage.
26:43My kids are terrified.
26:44My kids, I didn't even tell them because they live in fear.
26:49Which is what we could come to about, does society need religion?
26:53I think Hamza introduced that subject very nicely with the problem of, you know,
26:58how do we know what's right and wrong and good and evil?
27:01What's our morality based upon?
27:03If we don't have religion, do we even have morality?
27:07Isn't morality therefore just a social construct?
27:10It just changes from hour to hour, minute to minute.
27:13And if it changes from hour to hour, minute to minute, do we even have really morality?
27:17No, that's his argument and I agree with it.
27:19We don't.
27:20It's illusionary.
27:21You need, and this is where I'm going, you need this certainty.
27:26But the certainty is important.
27:28We need to know that this is really from God and this is our problem.
27:31In the rational age, we need a rational explanation.
27:35We need a religion that not only teaches us morality
27:40but we can have rational reasons to believe that that religion truly is from God.
27:47And I would invite you to make that examination
27:54not based, by the way, on morality.
27:58Interestingly enough, I'm going to say you need to put aside morality.
28:04Why?
28:05Because it could be that our society has adopted a whole fallacious approach to morality anyway.
28:13Where have we got to?
28:14What have we concluded with?
28:18Maybe we have reached the stage where our moral compass has lost its bearings.
28:24You may say, well, Islam is immoral because of what?
28:29Because of, and then you make some pointers.
28:32You come up with all, maybe the misconceptions and maybe those things are even true.
28:36You say, well, Islam this and Islam says that and Islam allows this and Islam allows that.
28:41But your judgment is based upon what?
28:44Your judgment is based upon what?
28:47Your culture.
28:49Your present state of morality.
28:51Interestingly enough, by the way,
28:54back in the days when, well, you could, I don't know, maybe there are some of us here who would say
29:00back in the days when Britain was great and we had an empire
29:03and there'd be other people saying, what are you talking about?
29:05Great British Empire.
29:07Funny enough, I had this discussion yesterday with a barrister who's,
29:11who's originally her family's from, from Bangladesh.
29:15Not very impressed with British Empire.
29:17So, but the point is, is that actually a lot of the things that people may criticize Islam for,
29:24they were things that were practiced here in Britain.
29:28It's interesting when this whole thing comes along.
29:31Muslims don't agree with British values.
29:33What British values?
29:35I think we'd probably find that Muslims have more in common with, say, Victorian values than maybe modern values.
29:43But was Victorian times less British?
29:48Was that part of Britishness?
29:50I don't know.
29:51I mean, you tell me, what's that mean?
29:53Interestingly enough, I remember a particular right wing Dutch MP.
29:58I had a vigorous email exchange with him and he was, this was about the issue of,
30:04interestingly enough, coming up again in France of Muslim women covering themselves and wearing the hijab.
30:10And I'd written a letter to the European Parliament, you know,
30:15inviting them to oppose France's decision and so on and so forth.
30:20And one Dutch MP wrote to me.
30:22And a very, very aggressive racist letter saying, basically what he said is,
30:27there are countries that people go from and come to, right?
30:31Morocco, you know, Somalia, they are people, they are countries that people go from.
30:37They run away from those countries and they come to places like Britain and the Netherlands, yeah?
30:44So basically what he's saying is, if you want to come to our country,
30:47you behave the way that we tell you to behave, more or less, yeah?
30:52So anyway, I wrote a pithy reply to him.
30:57And he said, oh, we have to de-Islamicise Europe.
31:03De-Islamicise Europe.
31:05That's a very interesting concept, de-Islamicise Europe.
31:09I said, do you know, by the way, that the numbers you use every single day,
31:18does anyone know where those numbers come from?
31:22Do you know where they come from?
31:24They're Arabic numbers.
31:26One, two, three, four, five, those actual numbers, the actual shapes that you use,
31:31the numbers you use, including, by the way, the zero, are Arabic numbers.
31:37So if you want to start de-Islamicising Europe, get rid of the numbers, yeah?
31:43I mean, just make sure you do a thorough de-Islamicisation, yeah?
31:48And especially the use of zero, which was unknown except in India,
31:52but it was developed into a practical application by Muslim mathematicians
31:58who developed the use of the zero.
32:01Of course, algebra, you can't even imagine basic things in our society
32:07existing without algebraic equations.
32:09I mean, some of us may be quite happy to get rid of algebra,
32:12but I think on a practical scientific point of view, we couldn't do much without it.
32:17But algebra, of course, is something.
32:20The word itself is Arabic, algebra, from Kitab al-Jabra,
32:25which was written by a famous Muslim mathematician
32:28who developed the whole system of algebra.
32:30By the way, in order to calculate the zakat, I won't go into the whole thing.
32:35I mean, what do you mean de-Islamicise?
32:38So, I mean, my point is morality.
32:40If you're going to use the position of morality, that's not a good position to take.
32:44No, we have to go back. We have to look at the basics.
32:47And I'm asking you now to make an analysis, to look at the Prophet Muhammad.
32:54May God's peace and blessings be upon him.
32:56In the light of these three things, just these three things,
33:01was he truthful, was he deluded, or was he a liar?
33:09You could do that by reading his life, but it's very interesting,
33:14and since I don't have time, obviously, to discuss many aspects of this,
33:18I would just like to propose to you two things, just two things I want.
33:22First of all, it's very interesting that, of course,
33:26there is a long history of polemic against Islam.
33:30There is a long history, starting with Saint John,
33:33I probably wouldn't like to call him a saint, actually,
33:36but John of Damascus, who wrote the first polemical work against Islam,
33:42and he said some pretty absurd things,
33:45including claiming that the Prophet Muhammad died by being attacked by a group of pigs.
33:52That's what he actually claimed in his writings.
33:54And he pretty much set the standard for quite a few Christian writers after his time
33:59making pretty absurd accusations.
34:01And, of course, his claim is that Muhammad was a liar.
34:06Why did he say this?
34:08And why, by the way, almost entirely, and I wouldn't say everyone,
34:13the Reverend Boswell, for example, is an exception,
34:15and there are others who take a different view today,
34:19but, I mean, historically, probably up until 100 and 150 years ago,
34:23almost without exception, most Christian writers accused the Prophet Muhammad of being a liar.
34:30The reason they did that is very simple.
34:33Any Christian or Jew who opens the Qur'an and reads the life of the Prophet Muhammad
34:39will be struck by how much consistency and similarity there is
34:46between what the Qur'an says, what the Prophet taught,
34:49and what they know from their own religion and scriptures.
34:54In fact, some of these things are very detailed matters
34:59of theology and philosophy, religious philosophy and law.
35:04In fact, some early Christians thought that Muhammad,
35:09the Prophet Muhammad, was actually a bishop, a former bishop.
35:14That is the level of information they recognized,
35:18because they have to explain, where did Muhammad get all this information?
35:22Where did he learn about heaven and paradise and the hellfire and Moses and Jesus
35:27and Abraham and Noah and the detailed dietary laws and so on?
35:31Where did he get this information from?
35:33He must have learned it from a priest, from a rabbi, from this and that.
35:36And then he must have what?
35:38Made it up and invented it and made this religion together.
35:41That's the only way they could explain and still obviously not agree
35:47that Islam was the truth by saying, well, he must be a liar.
35:51He must have invented it.
35:53And it's very interesting that there is another group of writers,
35:56and these writers are much more modern.
36:00And people who have now accessed themselves to the sources
36:04and have begun to read for themselves about the life of, in other words,
36:07not relying upon these Christian polemicists, and they said,
36:10well, we don't really find evidence from the life and character
36:16of the Prophet Muhammad that he was a liar.
36:18In fact, he's extraordinary.
36:20His people used to refer to him even before he was a prophet
36:26or he claimed to be a prophet, as they would say.
36:28They used to refer to him as Al-Amin, the truthful and the trustworthy one.
36:33And they give many examples of his behavior, of his character,
36:38totally out of character of a person who is a liar.
36:41In other words, they testify to his truthfulness, his honesty,
36:45his absolute sincerity, and that they say it's not possible that he was a liar.
36:53They say, but he must have just thought that he was a prophet.
36:56He must have really believed it.
36:59He believed it, but he was, you know, epileptic,
37:02and people have epileptic fits.
37:04They have these visions and so on and so forth.
37:07And so they tried to explain this by saying, well, he was deluded.
37:11He thought he was a prophet.
37:12That explains his sincerity.
37:13That explains his behavior.
37:15But, of course, he wasn't speaking the truth any more than the liar was,
37:21but they can't reconcile his character with being a liar.
37:25But, you know, the interesting thing is you can't be a liar
37:30and be deluded at the same time.
37:32That's why there's only three possibilities.
37:34And I'll give you an example.
37:36If you are a liar, if someone comes and asks you a question,
37:40as it happens a lot in the Qur'an, a lot of the time they ask,
37:44it says the Qur'an says they ask you, O Muhammad, they ask you about this,
37:48they ask you about that, and then the Qur'an gives an answer.
37:52So imagine this.
37:53Someone comes and asks the person.
37:57We're going back to our people.
37:58Imagine here, remember.
37:59You need to know what's behind that door.
38:01So they come and ask a question.
38:03Let me test.
38:04Let me see if this person really knows this.
38:08Now, if you're a liar, if you're a liar, what are you going to do?
38:14You want to give the right answer.
38:17So if a rabbi or a Christian or he's coming to you, what would you do?
38:21If you've got your source of information, you want to give the right answer,
38:24you're going to either construct a very ambiguous reply
38:28or you're going to go back to your source of information
38:31and you're going to find the answer and then deliver the answer.
38:34It's a lie, it's a deception.
38:36If you are deluded, you think that God is going to reveal it to you.
38:41You don't need to go and look for a reply.
38:44You don't need to go and search out the answer
38:46because you're really sure that God's going to tell you
38:48because I really believe I'm a prophet of God.
38:50Do you understand how you can't be a liar and be deluded at the same time?
38:55Yet actually, if you try to look, where is the source of information?
39:00There were no priests, there were no rabbis,
39:02there was no one we can identify from where the prophet could have got this information.
39:07His character as we know and we can examine it
39:11was the character of a truthful person.
39:13I just want to give one example.
39:15One example and it's from a vigorously authenticated source.
39:20This is an amazing example and I just leave it for you to ponder on it.
39:28After many years of the prophet preaching his mission,
39:31suffering incredible hardships, difficulties,
39:36seeing his beloved wife Khadija of many years die after a boycott,
39:45having seen his followers tortured, killed,
39:48forced into exile into Ethiopia,
39:51the Muslims suffered terrible things.
39:53Eventually a group of people in a city called Medina
39:57invited the prophet Mohammed and his companions to come and live there.
40:00And it didn't stop.
40:02Even then they were gathering armies to try and wipe out the Muslims.
40:06So you can imagine, this is going on for now.
40:09Let me see, by that time, must have been nearly 18, 19 years.
40:15And in Arabian society, it's very, very important,
40:19it was important in those days to have a son.
40:21In fact, they used to mock the prophet Mohammed
40:23because he didn't have a son.
40:24He had daughters, but all his baby boys died.
40:27And it was a source of mockery of the prophet from the pagan Arabs.
40:32Actually what happened was, after these 17 years, he had a son.
40:38There was a son from one of his wives, Miriam.
40:42She gave birth to a son. His name was Ibrahim.
40:46And when Ibrahim was six months old,
40:51little baby, he died.
40:52Actually he died in the arms.
40:54The prophet was holding him as he died.
40:57So this child died in his arms.
41:02And even the prophet was crying.
41:05And they used to think that, you know, you shouldn't cry when someone dies.
41:08And, you know, they said, oh, messenger of God, you told us not to do this.
41:11No, this crying is from compassion.
41:13It's not from disbelief in God or questioning God.
41:16It's just from compassion for that child.
41:19That's allowed.
41:22Anyway, it's not the point.
41:25The point is that on the same day that his son died,
41:31there was an eclipse of the sun.
41:34So his son dies.
41:35On the same day that his son dies, there is an eclipse of the sun.
41:41Now, even today, I've told some people that.
41:43And I didn't even finish my story.
41:44And they said, that's amazing.
41:46He must have been a prophet.
41:48Right.
41:49And sure enough, by the way, at that time, people came running out.
41:53They said, look, even the sun darkens for the death of the child of the messenger of God.
42:00This is what the people were saying.
42:01This is what the people were saying.
42:03Now, imagine this.
42:04Please think about it.
42:06If you're a liar, you've been inventing all these years,
42:11trying to persuade people you're a prophet and this and that.
42:14Here's your chance.
42:15I mean, OK, your son's died.
42:16But still, after all of this, you'd say, you see, I told you, everyone, didn't I tell you?
42:22Didn't I tell you?
42:24Look at that.
42:25What more do you want?
42:28True or not?
42:29Wouldn't a con man, a liar?
42:31Wouldn't he take an opportunity like that?
42:33No doubts.
42:36And imagine if you are deluded, just a madman.
42:38You're just thinking and imagining the same thing.
42:41You'd say, yes, it's a sign from God.
42:43You see, I told you it's I'm a prophet.
42:46God sign.
42:48But actually.
42:50The prophet Mohammed did not do that at all.
42:52In fact, when he heard the people, he called them.
42:55He called them.
42:58He called them.
42:59The big announcement.
43:00You know what he said?
43:01He said, this is the sun.
43:03And this is the moon.
43:05And they are just two of the creations of God.
43:08And they don't eclipse for the birth or the death of any man.
43:14So when you see this, pray to your Lord.
43:16And then he taught them a special prayer to make when there is an eclipse.
43:22Is this how a liar would behave?
43:27Is this how a deluded person will behave?
43:30Or is this the words of a truthful man?
43:33I can only ask you, please.
43:36To I can only ask you, please.
43:39To think carefully.
43:42There are many people making many claims.
43:46And being able to claim to tell you what is behind the door.
43:48I am absolutely convinced as Hamza has introduced.
43:55And as I am sure that I truly believe many of you here today.
43:59Would agree.
44:02That the loss of religion.
44:05The loss of an absolute anchor of morality in our society.
44:12Has set us astray as a society.
44:15And is a large contributing factor.
44:19To the increasing chaos.
44:22That we find in the world around us.
44:27I have no doubt in my mind.
44:30That society, western society, the world as a whole.
44:35Actually needs religion more now than it ever did.
44:39But where is the religion that can offer us certainty?
44:44Where is the religion that can offer us a rational certainty.
44:50That is not merely based upon what our ancestors did.
44:54Or just some belief or maybe it just makes me feel good.
44:58Or that person smiled nicely.
45:03Certainly I believe that all of us have a duty.
45:06And I believe that all of us have a duty.
45:09As Hamza has mentioned the verses of the Quran.
45:13To think deeply about these issues.
45:16To think very deeply about these issues.
45:19Of course all we both of us have been able to do.
45:22Is a little introduction to all of you.
45:25On a vast topic.
45:27It is our happiness and joy.
45:31To be able just to stand here in front of you.
45:33And share some of our thoughts.
45:36Our understanding, our feeling.
45:39It of course is totally up to you and your own conscience.
45:43How you deal with it, what sense you make of it or not.
45:46As the Quran says.
45:48There is no compulsion in religion.
45:51No one should be forcing anyone what to believe or what not to believe.
45:56But I do believe that having a discussion is important.
45:59That at least if you could understand.
46:02Even if you could understand.
46:05That Muslims do have a rational basis.
46:10For believing what they believe.
46:12For behaving the way that they do.
46:15It is not based upon some mere irrational emotion.
46:19That there are some and I believe of course compelling reasons.
46:24To believe that not only does society need religion.
46:29That Islam is something that can contribute hugely.
46:33To the well-being of society.
46:36And I do look forward to that.
46:38And may God bless all of you.
46:40For coming here tonight.
46:42May God guide you.
46:44And God may guide me also closer to the truth.
46:47May his peace and blessings be upon all of you.