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00:00Let's get more on this one and bring in Gregory Asmoloff, lecturer in global digital politics
00:04at King's College in London, joining us by Skype live. Gregory, thank you for being with us. Give
00:10us some insight on this one. Why is it taking so long for this issue regarding Telegram to come to
00:14a head? I think that we should recognise that Telegram is not just one of the many messaging
00:21platforms, it's a huge, important digital geopolitical actor. And the main question
00:26that is raised by this case is not really a question about the balance between freedom
00:30and regulation, but it's all about the liability of the platforms, and particularly the founders
00:34of the platforms, for whatever is happening as a part of these platforms. So we should question,
00:39actually, if getting Mr. Durov detained, even if we dislike him or his platform,
00:46and if trying to charge him is the right approach. Or we may consider thinking about
00:51introducing new forms of fines, banning the platform, or trying to restrict it. But actually
00:57putting him under arrest is quite a significant act, which hasn't been seen in the past
01:02history of regulation of this type of big digital global actors. Gregory, for years,
01:08Telegram has been kind of like the Nehru-Wells messaging app of choice. Anybody conducting a
01:14criminal enterprise would probably use Telegram at some time. Terrorist groups would use Telegram.
01:19How has this all gone undetected? How has this been allowed to develop?
01:23I think that on the one hand, we should recognize that Telegram was used by a lot of political
01:28activists in authoritarian environments. It is very important for the people of Ukraine
01:34to address the Russian aggression. It is very important for a different type of very positive
01:39causes. But there is also the risk that we have seen that because of this approach,
01:44of a hands-off approach about the regulation, which is a part of the history of any platform
01:49that was developed by Mr. Durov, it potentially can be used by a lot of different types of
01:53criminals and terrorist organizations. For instance, there are many governments like,
01:57for instance, the government of Israel that may potentially also want to question Mr. Durov
02:01because of the way Hamas is using this platform. At the same time, I don't think that these
02:06governments even consider arresting this type of personality because, again, you can think about
02:10regulation without trying to arrest the CEO of the platform. So yes, there are benefits,
02:15but there are also some risks. But we should recognize, again, that it's a very important
02:20geopolitical actor and it's not just one of many social messengers.
02:24As you point out, I can list a few of the people whose channels, whose words I read on Telegram.
02:30Zelensky, Putin, there's one either side. Savlan Tikhanovskaya, a Belarus dissident, of course.
02:37But also the Wagner group following their movements on Telegram. Interesting and quite
02:42scary. You mentioned Hamas's use of it as well. But isn't one of the issues that Pavel Durov
02:49failed to respond to numerous requests regarding the misuse of Telegram? In a sense, kind of just
02:55basically ignoring the law. That's been one of the big issues too, hasn't it?
02:59I think that this case actually sends a message to Telegram that they should have invested more
03:04in the development of institutional capability to address all these queries. So the big difference
03:09is not that Telegram ignores or rejects any request for regulation. I assume that they
03:16try to engage with some of them. And also there are many requests that are rejected by other
03:20platforms as well. But unlike Meta or some other big tech companies, Telegram doesn't have a
03:27significant institutional capacity to deal with all these queries. So I think as a follow-up to
03:32this situation, we will see actually that Telegram will get the message and start thinking about
03:36development institutional capacity to deal with all these requests. Because this case is not because
03:42of the Telegram was used for criminal activities, but actually, as you mentioned, because Telegram
03:46failed to respond to queries about these specific cases. Indeed, perhaps it should be because it's
03:52being used for criminal activities, because that's a very serious part of this whole thing. And some
03:57of the charges are repugnant in terms of the dissemination of child sex abuse images, which is
04:05one of those things. It's absolutely unthinkable that this can be allowed to continue. But also,
04:12you know, the issues of fraud. If you use Telegram, you get various, maybe two or three attempts a day
04:18to defraud you in some way, shape or form. And you usually see them coming because they're very,
04:22very awkward and very easy to spot. But nonetheless, it goes on. This is one of the
04:26things. Is the fact that Durov based his Telegram business in the UAE, rather than, say, somewhere
04:34in Europe? Because as Emmanuel Macron would have wanted him to do, base it here in Paris. The fact
04:38that he chose to put it somewhere else, was he just basically trying to hide from the fact that
04:42he would have to tidy up his act, clean up his act, if he put it in Europe? I think that Durov
04:48genuinely believes that Telegram is going to be an important tool if he tries to follow this type
04:54of approach, which is a handoff approach about regulation. So the decision to place it in the
05:00political spaces where he may find himself under less pressure is quite clear and understandable
05:06because of his intentions. But I think we also should try to avoid this kind of
05:10moral panic about Telegram. Definitely, there are some illegitimate ways of use of Telegram,
05:15and they should be condemned and avoided. But I know many people, including myself,
05:20who use Telegram on an everyday basis. And I don't see any of these type of attempts to
05:25actually manipulate us, or I don't see any forms of phishing that can be allegedly linked to
05:32Telegram. So yes, it's there. It can be present on some other platforms. It can be present in
05:36most significant way on Telegram in comparison to other platforms. But we should not overestimate
05:42the scale of these things. But at the same time, I do think that Telegram should improve the way
05:47they communicate with all the authorities. But I don't think that putting Mr. Durov under arrest
05:53is the right approach to achieve this goal. Gregory Asperloff, thank you very much indeed
05:56for joining us and sharing your point of view. Very balanced it is too on this story. And of
06:01course, we continue to watch all developments. Pavel Durov under licence, 5 million euro bail.
06:08He can't leave France. He has a French passport, as we pointed out earlier on. But basically,
06:13he has to report to a police station twice a week. And we will continue to cover all developments
06:18in the story as it happens. Gregory Asperloff from London. Thank you very much indeed for
06:22joining us and sharing your analysis with us here on France 34. Greatly appreciate it.