The last time I spoke to Chris was about a month ago. We met on Twitter and we spoke for about two and a half hours. So I wanted to get him in on a conversation. In this conversation, we talk about simplicity and how app makers do things that we don't like. It's a fantastic conversation and we'd love to share it with you. so here's our conversation.
Post: https://macjunky.com/post/conversation-with-chris-raroque
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#apple #mac #consulting #coaching #training #business #tech #technology #minimalism #simplicity
Post: https://macjunky.com/post/conversation-with-chris-raroque
Newsletter: https://macjunky.com/newsletter
Contact: https://macjunky.com/contact
#apple #mac #consulting #coaching #training #business #tech #technology #minimalism #simplicity
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TechTranscript
00:00Last time I spoke to Chris, I think it was about a month ago.
00:05We met on Twitter and we went on for like two and a half hours
00:11or so two hours at least because we had such a great time and
00:15I really wanted to get him in on a conversation so you can
00:19hear it and in this actually this conversation went on for
00:23about two hours or so, but I've I'm going to release or you're
00:28Going to hear the first hour because I think two hours is a
00:31bit too long and there are some things that we obviously don't
00:34want to share publicly, but the first hour is actually pretty
00:39amazing.
00:40Now, he's a software developer and he's into simplicity and
00:44his app is really good not because I know him now when I
00:49talk to him, but it's actually really really good and we talk
00:52about it quite a lot in this episode and we generally talk
00:56about simplicity and how app makers do things that me personally
01:04don't like and he doesn't like either, but it's a fantastic
01:07conversation and I'd love to share it with you and here's that
01:11conversation.
01:15Yeah.
01:15Oh my God.
01:17Yeah.
01:17I mean, I don't know if I like really told you like what I do
01:20like for the as my like day job or anything like that you you
01:23touched on it, but I don't know 100% go for it.
01:28Okay, it's it's mainly in the like software outsourcing space
01:33just because I needed to outsource some stuff like a few
01:35years ago just because I'm a developer but I just needed more
01:38manpower and I tried like going on Upwork or finding people and
01:43it was the most painful process that I've ever gone through and
01:47I was like, oh my God, if I'm technical and I'm having these
01:50problems, like I can't imagine someone who like isn't technical
01:53who wanted to outsource software.
01:55So I just became obsessed with the problem and now I'm just
01:57trying to see if I can solve it with like technology and process
02:02and a little bit of like human element if I can see if I can
02:06make it so anyone that's non-technical that wants to
02:09outsource software can do it and more specifically outsource
02:13abroad like outside of the US that's mainly US companies and
02:16if they can do it with like the most minimal risk and basically
02:21the keyword is a consistency if we can bring consistency to
02:24it because that's the hard part like sometimes you get lucky
02:27and you and it works but sometimes most of the time you
02:29don't.
02:30But building apps or what do you mean by?
02:33Yes.
02:33So yeah, building apps, right?
02:35Yes, building apps.
02:36Yeah.
02:36So building apps.
02:37I mean, I love software so much that I basically have just made
02:40it my life like that's like also my full-time job, but it's a
02:44lot of client.
02:44It's a lot of client related work and it's one of the most
02:48like complex like client related work because a lot of money is
02:53involved and if you any any sort of screw up, there's no undo
02:58button for that.
02:58Like it's really hard because it's like and yeah, we had it.
03:01We had an issue had an issue like with with multiple clients
03:06where a bunch of a bunch of things are going wrong and I was
03:08like, okay, if a bunch of things are going wrong, maybe maybe
03:11it's like at the management level like maybe something else
03:14is going wrong.
03:14So I had to have some conversations with one of the partner
03:18firms that we work with and it was it was a huge introspective
03:21conversation.
03:22It wasn't like a hey, you're doing, you know, you're doing a
03:25shit job.
03:25Like I'm going to punish you.
03:27It's always it's more of like like let's dig deep and figure
03:31out why like what happened a lot of it is actually due to covid.
03:34So they're explaining like we're looking at that and they're
03:38just not as effective when they're not in the in the office and
03:41we figured that out but then and then there's a lot of other I
03:46think they just grew too quickly and all these other stuff one
03:49of the partners that we work with for development, but you're
03:51doing all of this while you're doing your own app, right?
03:55So how do you stay sane?
03:59I mean the whole point of yeah.
04:00Okay.
04:01So what I do is take minimalism, right?
04:03Obviously.
04:03Yeah.
04:04Yeah, and so how do you keep sane?
04:10How do you keep on top of things?
04:13I mean, how do you do it?
04:16Yeah.
04:16Yeah.
04:16I mean, honestly, I would be lying if I had the answer but I'm
04:21still trying to figure it out, which is probably why I keep
04:23jumping between project management tools and I keep asking people
04:26what do you use?
04:27What do you use?
04:28Yeah.
04:28Yeah.
04:29Yeah.
04:29Okay.
04:30That's the worst.
04:30That's the worst.
04:32Yeah.
04:32So I'm still trying to figure out a good what's a good like a way
04:37for me to balance it and a good process.
04:40The one I've stuck with right now is I'm now using this tool
04:43called Sensama.
04:45I don't know if you've heard of this this one.
04:47No, I haven't.
04:48No, but it's it's it's almost like the way they describe it.
04:51It's a Trello and Google Calendar like had a baby and like literally
04:55it's like the comment someone like literally just combine these
04:58two products together and I found out that it's it's actually it
05:03has like a lot of like I could build this a notion which I tried
05:07to do and I and I tried building it in other project management
05:11tools, but it's they built it.
05:14It's like a very opinionated software.
05:16So they're like this is how you use our software and they just
05:19had such little tiny flows that made it like they just help police
05:23me so much better like a good a good one is any tasks you didn't
05:27do that day will roll over to the next day and then if it rolls
05:30over like X amount of days consecutively, it'll just remove it
05:34and put it in this backlog.
05:36So that way because it'll probably they kind of determine.
05:39Oh, you're skipping it this many days.
05:41It's probably not that important to you.
05:42You should revisit it in the future.
05:43Then it's interesting because I use things and I like the way
05:50that things does it because it doesn't nag you.
05:52It doesn't put it into any list.
05:54It just stays there.
05:55By the way, do you want to do it?
05:57It's kind of up to you to kind of move it somewhere and I find
06:00that to be much better because I've used a thousand apps and
06:06Stuff to do it and I bring man.
06:10My system is so mishmash II but it but it's concise.
06:14I mean, I know what I'm doing with it.
06:16The thing I find with a lot of software is you have to be able
06:22to get your data out, right?
06:25So if you don't like a tool then you can move somewhere else
06:30relatively easily.
06:31I've obviously read and that's what I that's kind of I look for
06:36that in in apps because I don't want to be kind of, you know,
06:40so often the locked in too much.
06:42I mean, they don't they don't do it purposely some do but
06:48generally they don't but technically it's not some it's something
06:53they haven't done and it's not right is it's not worth them
06:58spending that time.
06:59So they're not doing it maliciously, but it's like technically
07:01it's going to take too long.
07:02So it would do something else and I don't like but so I you know,
07:08my job is to waste time with tools.
07:11So my clients don't don't have to basically so I see all of this
07:15stuff, but my own system is so bare bones.
07:22It's it's laughable, but it works and it works really freaking
07:27well this past week.
07:30I've been looking at two or three different apps for myself and
07:33I was like, oh this will work.
07:35So I use it for two days like notice it next, you know, so I
07:40that's that's what I do.
07:41So I think I don't like tools that do more than one thing, right?
07:48Yeah, and because I find that when tools try to do a lot think
07:52of click up when they do so much they don't do anything specifically
07:58well.
07:59Well, yes.
08:00Yes.
08:00Yeah, I completely understand that and that's a problem like your
08:04app does one thing and it does it.
08:05Well, there's some things wrong with it.
08:07We'll talk later.
08:09Yeah, I think nothing major.
08:11I mean, I actually do like it.
08:12I tried to use it, but it doesn't really work with my workflow
08:15and that's fine.
08:15But yeah, it's a great app.
08:17It's a simple app, but there are certain things that could be
08:19improved, but that's normal with software.
08:21You just it takes time to get there, but there are some apps that
08:25are just so freaking complicated.
08:28Oh, yeah too many buttons not quite intuitive enough, etc, etc,
08:32and they're expecting you to use it in your workflow and that's
08:35it.
08:35Yeah, that's a that's a headache.
08:37And yeah one that I've been working with I won't name it but
08:42one that I've been working with for the past.
08:45I don't know 10 15 years.
08:47Yeah, but 10 15 years or so.
08:49It's a great app, but it tries to do too much but it does things
08:53that you want it you want it to work because it's such a great
08:57idea.
08:59Yeah, but every single piece of that app is just really bad, but
09:05as a whole it's a fantastic app, but nothing inside it works so
09:09well and that's a shame.
09:11Yeah, so I went back to it this week and I was like I used it
09:15for three days like okay.
09:16No, no, this is a day just before you got on the call something
09:20wasn't working.
09:21I'm like this is so simple.
09:22Why the right is it right now?
09:24Let's just get my data route.
09:26So there's a lot of that you must come up.
09:29Yes.
09:30Yeah, I what you do.
09:31Oh, yeah all the time.
09:33I mean, it's it I as a developer I kind of I kind of understand
09:38why people do it but I and I have to try to fight myself not to
09:41do that.
09:41But right it's just because when I mean when we talk to users and
09:45we try to hear what they want usually I honestly I honestly think
09:49it's just because we get bored very easily and we're just we
09:52we kind of want like we almost like when you you know, try a new
09:56product you're really happy with it and you get kind of bored of
09:58it and you want to try another thing even if it's working for
10:00you to be honest like that's yeah, that's always something you
10:02have to fight same with developers like they just want they're
10:06like, okay.
10:06I love my product.
10:07That's great.
10:08And then they they're like, but now I'm kind of bored.
10:10I just want to add something new and and then if one user puts
10:14it in their head that this is what they want they'll immediately
10:17latch on to it and be like, okay, this is what I need to acquire
10:19more users.
10:20This is what I want to do, but it is very like I think it does
10:24take discipline for a developer to try to like actually iterate
10:27on a feature rather than iterate on the product and like that's
10:31a huge thing that I know a lot of developers struggle with that's
10:34probably why so many projects are abandoned also like developers
10:36are always like they keep wanting to they just need like a lot
10:40of stimulation and a lot of like user praise and you usually
10:43you only get praise when you deliver new features not when you
10:46make things better and it takes a really strong developer to
10:51like or a company that directs the developer to like, you know,
10:55like hey, this is you need you need to make this thing better
10:59like rather than working.
11:00I mean you work on your own.
11:01Obviously you don't there isn't a team or anything right for
11:04your app.
11:05Yes, that's completely different to companies who do have this
11:10team behind them completely.
11:12Yeah, so when people like you so a sole developer create something
11:17yet people have to understand listen, dude, this is guys on
11:20his own.
11:20So there's certain things that are going to take longer completely
11:22understandable, but there are big companies.
11:26I'll name one Calendly.
11:29Wow.
11:29My God.
11:29Okay.
11:30Yeah.
11:31Yeah, Jesus and they've just changed their logo and it just
11:35looks like it looks like a turd.
11:37Yeah from I mean, it's so stupid.
11:40Anyway, yeah, it does look like a it looks like a electrified
11:43turd toilet seat.
11:44It looks like it looks like a toilet.
11:48It's it is crazy.
11:50But I've spoken to I mean they had iCloud sync.
11:54Well, sorry Caldev sync, but then they stopped it and you ask
12:00him wine and I well, you know developers.
12:03Yeah, it's a bit hard to do like no, it's not hard to do just
12:07you can't be asked to do it.
12:09There's a difference and it's been years because they had it
12:13they took it away and don't tell me there's no framework there.
12:16I mean, it's stupid.
12:17Of course.
12:17There is right?
12:18Yeah.
12:18So when people ask you because it's in that they have a website
12:22where feature requests what the fuck's going on type thing and
12:26it's been in there for years.
12:29Yeah.
12:31But then but then they'll change their logo who the fuck cares
12:34about the logo.
12:35Sorry.
12:35I'm getting angry because I don't want toilet seat.
12:41I want the you know, but again, they will come out with or this
12:45is in their minds.
12:47Well, we make software we want to use and if you want to use
12:50it, you're welcome to but you don't have to that's such a bullshit
12:53thing for a company company like that to say that's different
12:58to a sole developer that there are differences, right?
13:01If a sole developer create something I want to create it because
13:05it's something I like and then sells it.
13:07That's a completely different kettle of fish to we are a company
13:11that does this and we do it the base camps like that and I love
13:15them and I hate them for it as well, right?
13:18So it's crazy how they do that.
13:22Yeah.
13:22Yeah.
13:23Yeah.
13:23Yeah.
13:23Yeah, every company does it tries to take an approach but the
13:29companies that do say like, you know, we're trying to build
13:31something that we want to use.
13:33I agree.
13:34I don't I don't really I definitely was in that camp.
13:37I mean as a solo developer like it makes more sense that I'm
13:39in that camp, but yeah, even if I had a team I would have been
13:43in that camp but and like we talked about last time we spoke
13:47I've definitely changed my tune.
13:48I now see why I like that doesn't make any sense.
13:52Like I've definitely come around even as a solo developer.
13:55I like like I don't even I don't even believe that myself
14:00anymore like that, you know, I'm building this for myself.
14:03Like I think when you get to a certain point where especially
14:06the point where you actually want to like make money even just
14:09make money not even grow it but you just want to sustain it.
14:12Yeah, you do have to listen to it.
14:14You really do have to listen to users.
14:15You do have to do that because it's not unless it's like an
14:19art project unless it's like literally like right like this
14:22is your art and like you genuinely like don't aren't trying
14:25to you're trying to like, you know, use this as your medium
14:28of like expression then sure you could totally do that.
14:31But if you actually want users you have to you do have to
14:35listen to them.
14:36Well, this is the thing I commend you for when you tweeted
14:38out that you're actually talking to yes clients talking to
14:43users, right?
14:44And then the so invaluable because you said this on in your
14:49tweets as well.
14:49Like it's so invaluable talking to someone who's actually
14:53using away from you.
14:55So you're not using it.
14:57You use it in a specific way and you had an idea of how you
15:01use it.
15:01But when you talk to other people, you're like, oh, I miss
15:04that.
15:05Oh, actually, I don't want that.
15:06You actually have a prop.
15:07You have proper feedback and a lot of developers don't do
15:11it.
15:12This is kind of what I wanted to talk to you about.
15:14It's like I'm amazed that there's a developer that's actually
15:18doing it now.
15:20Yeah, it's a double-edged sword as well as you understand
15:23like if you listen to everything nothing will get done, right?
15:27So you have to be careful of what you can do when you don't
15:31want to do there are things that you just don't want to do
15:34when we spoke last time and I wish that was recorded as such
15:38a great conversation.
15:39We had yeah, that's you.
15:41It was one of the reasons why I push these conversations
15:43forward because of our conversation, but but we when we
15:49were talking I've lost my train of thought but it was good
15:53and we'll just laugh about it.
15:54I'll come back.
15:55Okay.
15:56Okay.
15:57Okay.
15:57Okay, we'll come back to me but you said something that was
16:01really intriguing to me at the time about user feedback and
16:06things like that because you were thinking about doing it
16:08then as well.
16:10Yes, I was literally just starting to like consider it because
16:13of our conversation.
16:14Honestly, I really well, it was a huge like that was a huge
16:17push because I didn't I I talked to a lot of users but I could
16:22tell that I could tell I was kind of almost like dominating
16:26the conversation and I know so many developers that do this
16:29because they just think like, oh, we know it like we know
16:32like you don't understand like how hard certain things are
16:36to push out.
16:36So whenever a user actually gives feedback usually they get
16:40in the defensive mode and they're like, oh, well, we can't
16:42do that because this exists like unfortunately, we're like
16:45yes, it kind of how would they they're like I've already
16:48thought of that like but like what you are.
16:52I think you're very different for most users to because you
16:55are probably the most vocal person that I met when it comes
16:58to feedback and that was so amazing for me because I never
17:05had someone who I didn't have the chance to like rebuttal
17:10anything and that was amazing that was awesome because then
17:12I actually had to I basically I had you force me to have to
17:16listen to like to your reasons and then as I started listening
17:20and you gave me like three or four things in a row.
17:24I was like thinking to myself.
17:26Holy shit.
17:27I think this man's right.
17:28Like I actually I'm just I'm starting to see it like and then
17:32yeah, the other thing.
17:33Oh, yeah.
17:34Sorry.
17:34So the the other big thing was you I gave you my roadmap of
17:39like here's some things I want to work on like calendar
17:42integration certain things and I haven't encountered a
17:46user who and probably because I would like in like, you know
17:50immediately respond to what they were saying, but I've never
17:54had a user tell me no like I like I really don't like that
17:58or like I would not use that at all like when I told you I
18:01forgot what the specific feature was.
18:02I think it might have been a calendar integration or something
18:05you were like or or a way to like link contacts and like
18:08have them sink.
18:09That's right.
18:09You wait and you were like you were like I would seriously
18:11not even like I would run far away from your app if you did
18:14that and usually users are too nice and they're like, oh that
18:17would be cool, but you were just so like vocal and I thought
18:21that was amazing because that actually that actually helped
18:25so much.
18:26I think I've never been a yes man.
18:29I've had a story before where I've told and because yes men
18:33doesn't help anything any project any feeling any kind of
18:38friendship.
18:39It doesn't help it move forward and it's and you're not saying
18:43it out of disrespect or I never say anything out of disrespect.
18:48I just think and I don't think I say it bluntly although it
18:51might come up.
18:52I think I just lived in Holland too much because that's what
18:54the Dutch are like, but I've always been true to what I believe
19:00without being a dick, right?
19:02So if there is something I don't like I will say it but I'm
19:05not going to say it in an asshole way because I don't think
19:07that's fair, but I think it's fair enough to say listen.
19:11What the hell are you doing here?
19:12You know what it was going on.
19:14Yeah, and sometimes you know being in this space for such a
19:18long time and being and looking at software the way I do in
19:22the past two or three years the way I have I think I've missed
19:26my vocation.
19:28I should have been a product manager or something.
19:30Yeah, you know what I mean?
19:31See because it's like I would love to do it.
19:34I don't have the experience to do it, but I would love to be
19:37in that space because I think you're right but product
19:42managers.
19:42The problem is that they always saying yes, they're either
19:45say too much.
19:46Yes is they either say yes too many times or they'll just say
19:50no at the wrong time and that's a problem and I think if I
19:54see the conversation I had with you I had the same kind of
19:59conversation with around, you know, the video.
20:03Yeah.
20:03Yeah.
20:03Yeah.
20:04Yeah Margot around.
20:05She's a lovely person and they're a great team and whenever
20:08I speak to them.
20:09She's always writing down notes.
20:11She's quite funny.
20:12Yeah.
20:12Yeah.
20:12She was writing notes and I'm not saying I've helped in any
20:15way whatsoever.
20:16I'm not trying to be big-headed, but it's nice that developers
20:19do listen to their users basically.
20:24Yeah.
20:25Yeah, I agree.
20:26I agree.
20:27I mean, honestly the the said something I actually kind of
20:31learned from you because then I started researching it a bit
20:33more because I actually had to research like how to properly
20:37talk to users.
20:38What is the best way to do this?
20:39Because I realized I clearly when I did talk to users.
20:42I don't think I was actually doing it.
20:44And so I had to rethink the structure and it's not as simple
20:48as a lot of people think because a lot of developers are like,
20:51okay, it's obvious.
20:52I'll talk to users.
20:53They don't actually talk.
20:54They just usually talk at the users like they don't actually
20:57like have a conversation and I think like something something
21:02powerful when a user like you is so vocal about it.
21:05It like I respected it so much because it showed that you
21:08cared about the product as much as I did.
21:10Wow, you literally like you you actually and that made me
21:14want to listen even more because I was like, oh my God this
21:16and that's also why now I try my best also talk to power
21:19users of mogul and I I list I also weigh their feedback a
21:24lot more which I've seen in a lot of a lot of like frameworks
21:27and how people are supposed to do user interviews and stuff
21:30like that.
21:30It's way the power user feedback way more than anyone else
21:34is because they're the ones that will use the product for
21:37its greatest benefit.
21:38They'll also be the ones that will be the biggest advocates
21:40for the product and they already it already clicked with
21:42them.
21:43So you just need to figure out like who they are how to get
21:46more people like them and then also like how to fix any sort
21:49of like what's what's stopping them from falling deeply in
21:52love with the product.
21:53Like that's what you should be focusing not like new things
21:55to acquire.
21:56You should try to double down on those kind of people and
21:58the more vocal someone is the usually the more power the
22:03more the more that they'll they actually like give a shit
22:05about your product as much as you do.
22:07No, absolutely.
22:08I think the power users are the early adopters the power
22:11users.
22:12They're the ones that you've got to kind of mother in a way
22:16kind of listen to but also I find a lot of software companies
22:23again individual developers are different but software companies
22:27who have an app they'll calendly they'll change their logo.
22:32They'll add such stupid features rather than fixing old
22:37features rather than fixing bugs rather than fixing the things
22:41that people and their clients are saying and it's not just
22:46one or two you go to their forums or their community centers
22:50and you see this slew of stuff, but yeah, we don't work on
22:55that.
22:55We're just going to give you this that doesn't work that
22:59Just fucks up your product even more than anything else.
23:03Yeah, everyone wants their own that their thing that you know
23:08what they want for the app, but it's not good for the community
23:13is not good for the app.
23:14So why even bother with those things?
23:16Why not fix what's going on right now?
23:19There's an app right now that I'm using which is actually
23:22a really nice app which is called craft, but there are many
23:25things there are many things in there that I don't like but
23:28as a general rule as what it is, I actually do like it.
23:32And one of the main things I like is that I can share documents
23:35with a link.
23:36I love that you can do that in yeah in notion various other
23:40things, but I just like the simplicity of how craft works and
23:44they're bringing out like a you know agenda notes with to
23:51yes, right.
23:51So they're bringing out that kind of thing.
23:54Right, right.
23:55So now great idea.
23:58However, there are lots of other things they could have worked
24:01on right.
24:03They have a great product as well, but they're just adding
24:06more and more and more things and I'm afraid it's going to
24:09get to a stage where all the old things are not quite right.
24:14I'm not not saying that there are bugs because I haven't found
24:17any although there are some but they're not major things but
24:22fixing other things like for instance, if you send a link to
24:28someone the person so it works on blocks just like just like
24:33notion you can you can comment on individual blocks.
24:39Well, that's that's a great idea.
24:40I guess a great feature but it's a pain in the ass when you
24:43go for a different use case ie if I'm sending a doc to a
24:47client.
24:48I want the person to comment on the doc not on the block work.
24:53Yeah, right.
24:54So like why didn't you think of this?
24:56Oh, yeah.
24:57Yeah, we will work on that.
24:59But no, they're going to give us calendar shit.
25:01I mean, come on.
25:02Yeah, work on the stuff work on, you know, and what makes me
25:08even more angry is that you have a product in you and you
25:12create this thing.
25:13They do have a road map, but it's not on the road map and
25:17then you come up with ideas and go why why did you not think
25:21about this?
25:22So for instance, you can share links for the document, but
25:26you can't share links for the folder.
25:28If I'm working with a client, I want their fault.
25:32They should have access to why didn't you think about this?
25:35It's such a simple thing.
25:37Hence why I think I've lost, you know, I missed my vocation
25:41because like there's no thinking involved.
25:44It's more a case of I want to build this thing and yeah, use
25:49it. Oh, by the way next week, we're going to add something
25:52else like Jesus Christ.
25:53Yeah, you know, it's crazy.
25:55Have you used craft?
25:56I completely get that.
25:58Yeah, I did.
25:58I did.
25:59I actually I saw it.
26:00I saw it on you tweeted about it and then I was like, okay,
26:04if Kay tweeted about it, I have to check it out.
26:05Like definitely if I haven't heard about it and he's using
26:08it, I'm like I missed out on something.
26:11So I did download it did use it.
26:14It was really I was so impressed though how like it did feel
26:18so native compared to Notion because I literally switched
26:21switch from there to Notion.
26:23I couldn't keep it because I did need I did need something
26:27with like Kanban and like more database kind of structure
26:30because I was trying to figure out a good system and I figured
26:32out. Okay.
26:33It's amazing for writing.
26:34It's amazing for sharing like, you know, creating documents
26:37for clients up.
26:38It's amazing.
26:38Like I get that right.
26:40I was so I was so impressed by how polished it felt and how
26:45a lot of the course that they did actually did feel really
26:47good. I guess I didn't dive deep enough and use some of the
26:51features like I didn't have anything to share so I never
26:54got to experience that part but writing and I was really
26:58impressed by by those things and I looked at their changelog
27:02too because I was curious like how long have these guys been
27:03around is like a new app or yeah, and it looks like they've
27:07been working on it for for quite some bit and they've raised
27:09money for it.
27:11Yeah, so I'm curious to see what happens like especially
27:13if since they've raised money and they're trying to grow
27:16quickly.
27:18Are they going to like are they going to start is the
27:21quality kind of going to go down just because it seemed
27:24like that was a huge focus for their team is like they really
27:27cared about like the quality.
27:29That's why they went native first.
27:31That's why they it seemed like they're very thoughtful about
27:33everything also the security of the aspect of it.
27:36They really thought about the security part of it, which is
27:40something that really you know, I'll tell you now and I haven't
27:43told anyone else and this is kind of life in a way.
27:47I've actually stopped using Basecamp because of it.
27:50Oh really?
27:51Okay.
27:51Okay, because what I was using security because not no, no,
27:55not because of the security really because I trust Basecamp
27:59but the way I use the the way I used to use Basecamp.
28:06I don't work in a team.
28:06I work on my own.
28:08So I wanted a way to share documents with clients in an easy
28:12way.
28:13Now you could do it with notion and stuff and stuff like that,
28:17but it just looked crappy in notion.
28:19I don't know.
28:20It just didn't look right.
28:22I know you mean and Basecamp was fantastic because it was so
28:25simple blah blah blah right share it done and you can put
28:28your clients into it and whatever but the things that I did
28:33with Basecamp didn't I wasn't using all of the features even
28:37though I think it's a fantastic tool and I still would give
28:40tell a lot of team members to use it more so than anything
28:44else.
28:44Yeah for me personally.
28:46I moved over to craft and it worked just like that.
28:49I was really freaking surprised.
28:52So I'm interested in this calendar feature that they're
28:54bringing but yeah, I stopped using Basecamp because of craft
28:59interesting interesting.
29:01Okay.
29:02Yeah, that's interesting.
29:04I'm trying to I'm curious now what you like what you use like
29:08which features of Basecamp you used and then to see like what
29:13the what the you know, what the counterpart is in craft and
29:17like I would love to compare the main thing for me was to write
29:21up documents and get clients to comment on them.
29:25Is this right?
29:26Is that I mean, that's basically it.
29:29So when you give a document to a client, I'm all about usability
29:33in the less clicks the better and the thing that's got to
29:36look nice and again, you can do all of this in lots of different
29:40apps, but the lots of different apps that I know of they don't
29:44look right.
29:45And when you give them to a client, they just completely get
29:48lost Basecamp.
29:50You put them in it's there.
29:52They comment at the bottom and fantastic.
29:55Yeah craft work slightly differently.
29:57But again, because it looks so beautiful.
29:59I sent a I've sent a document.
30:05I'm building a studio for a client of mine.
30:07He wanted to do videos.
30:09So you say make a document.
30:11So I created a document where it had three sections lighting video
30:16and audio and when you click on it, just the pain kind of comes
30:19with you.
30:20I mean you see now it was just a beautiful app.
30:22Yeah, and what they've done is commented on the individual items
30:27that I've noted to for them that they should buy.
30:30So, you know feedback, whatever beautiful.
30:33I made a little video.
30:34I embedded it saying this is how to use it.
30:38And it worked.
30:39Yeah, which is basically what I was doing in Basecamp.
30:42But why am I paying a hundred bucks for the same thing a month?
30:45Yeah, the same thing where this so it and as you said because
30:50it's a native app, it's a beautiful app.
30:52I mean it a lot of people kind of said that it looks very much
30:55like things like how beautiful things I agree with it.
31:00I agree with them.
31:01Yeah, the two apps I use actually.
31:04Yeah.
31:04Yeah.
31:04Yeah.
31:05No, they're I mean they're both things is things is like one
31:09of those standard apps that they they really haven't added
31:12like any new functionality, honestly, but they just keep like
31:16they just keep iterating and doubling down on like what is
31:18working and what's good.
31:20Also, they're there.
31:22Yeah, they you can you can tell because even even like even
31:25in the last like two three years.
31:27I mean they do major releases like two three of those things,
31:30but I don't know how long things three has been out maybe
31:33like two years.
31:35I think there's two three years.
31:36Yeah.
31:36I mean, yeah, I used I used to use things two and one what
31:41I'd like when it first came out was like, yeah.
31:43Well, this is really simple.
31:44What the hell is this?
31:46Yeah, the thing is when things are simple you look at it and
31:49go why the hell am I using it but then when you start once
31:52you start using it and understanding why it's so simple.
31:56You're like dude, this is all you need.
31:59So things has been kind of the center of my business effectively.
32:05I use it for absolutely everything the fact that you can put
32:09emails into it and think I mean, it's all you need.
32:12You don't need fluff.
32:13There are things that are missing from it and I wish it had
32:17it which is attachments and various other things.
32:21But to be honest if they added it would it take away?
32:25That's what a lot of people ask him like well, yeah, you don't
32:28have to use it.
32:29Some people would want it right?
32:30So yeah, but I can imagine them coming up with things for and
32:37yeah blowing everyone's socks off.
32:39I mean, I can imagine because like you said they release major
32:43releases and not features but bug fixes and slight changes and
32:49that's exactly what the space needs just have a good product
32:54and just fix the issues fix the little things people are
32:58missing.
33:00Yeah, I think they that's like I think that's a system that
33:05again a lot of developers and even companies.
33:07I just think are disciplined enough to like to do something
33:10like that.
33:11And I think them having to do major release like yeah major
33:15releases and then just like literal small UX improvements
33:19or bug fixes for the minor ones.
33:21That's like that's a way I think to like almost like force that
33:24discipline.
33:25Like you can't like they want it to put features then they would
33:30be taking away from sales from things for so even from a business
33:33standpoint like it kind of releases them to not go too crazy
33:37like drinking things three and diluting it or anything like
33:40that.
33:40And when somebody uses things three they're getting what they
33:43paid for like they're getting what they paid for and because
33:46I mean sometimes when you add when you add a lot of things a
33:50lot of developers think I'm doing the I'm doing the user a favor
33:53if they're going to want these things but for the users that
33:55don't want this feature you're you're just you're making it
33:57worse for you're actually like taking away almost in the
34:00experience and I think this this forces them like this kind of
34:04system of like major releases minor releases is like an actual
34:09I think it's a good way to police.
34:10I never I never actually thought about that.
34:12I mean that this is how the you know, when software with first
34:16came out you had version one and then three years later you
34:20had version two and four years later you have versions.
34:23That's the way it used to be now.
34:25I think people are just getting bored.
34:27It's like it's like doing the scroll feed kind of thing.
34:30He's scrolling.
34:31It's crazy because it's like no, this is not what we want.
34:35We just want a product that works and if we find a bug we kind
34:39of want it fixed, you know, but again, you know this whole in
34:46the in the olden days you paid for it and that was it right
34:50which is what things have done from day one, but there are you
34:53do yours as a monthly fee which is fine because I think you're
34:56working for it.
34:57I'm going to pay for it because it's it's worth it don't have
35:01a problem.
35:02What I have a problem with is when companies don't fix the
35:09things that people using it need fixing and then they just keep
35:13adding features because I think what the developers are thinking
35:17or I'm taking this money.
35:18I better give them something don't give them features give
35:23them the fix give them the fix and then do the major updates
35:27when while working on it, but just don't you can keep doing
35:32it because as you said, it's taking away from the people who
35:35are actually using the product now and love it.
35:37Yeah, it is.
35:39Right, right.
35:40Yeah, I yeah, I think that's exactly it.
35:43And then I mean another another I think another reason that
35:48like from a business standpoint whether one person or
35:50multi-company like a big company.
35:53I mean when they I think when they assume like new features
35:56they assume okay new customers like we can get new customers
35:59with these new features, but something that I learned and
36:04I talked to a guy's name is Josh.
36:05He's like a retention consultant and he like blew my mind
36:09because I I seriously was I think I was very also obsessed
36:13with how can I get new people in the door, but then he kind
36:16of explained to me what's the point of getting them in the
36:18door if you can't keep them in the door and he was he was
36:22like you need to focus on retention and I was like, okay,
36:25let me figure out what that actually means and then I figured
36:27out it meant, you know that then that's when I figured out
36:30also like and I had this conversation a week before I talked
36:34to you and that's when I started thinking about maybe I should
36:36talk to you and you really solidified it.
36:38Okay, but he told me like yeah, I think if you focus on retention
36:45then you know when you do want to acquire new users and you
36:47do work on new features and you do do things the chances of
36:50them staying are significantly higher because you worked on
36:54you know, you worked on the existing stuff you worked on the
36:56kinks of there and I think a lot of companies they just they
37:00just don't want to accept that like they don't or they're or
37:03they're too naive and like like me like I did not know that
37:05before I talked to them like that but it just makes common.
37:08It's just common sense.
37:09Like it is common sense.
37:10I think you know, what's the point?
37:11I think what again?
37:12I think it goes back to we're taking this money.
37:16So let's give them features.
37:17Yeah.
37:18Yeah, and that's such a wrong way of doing things.
37:21I think what you should be doing what you should be thinking
37:23is I'm taking this money.
37:25Let's make it better.
37:26Yes.
37:27Yes, that's what it should be not let me make something else
37:31because the more you make the more bugs they're going to be
37:34in it.
37:35I mean, I'm not a programmer but I know how it works, right?
37:38It just thought it's just the way it is.
37:40But if you're adding new features your your your bug list
37:45is just getting bigger and bigger.
37:46So people get more frustrated your users are going to get
37:48more frustrated.
37:50So just fix the damn thing not to you but fix the damn thing
37:53that you have rather than just adding the features and yeah,
37:57like what you're doing is amazing because there's not many
38:00people do it.
38:01They do reach out like you said I get reached out all the time
38:04with by these companies because because I am vocal but yeah,
38:08you can just see it's just going over the head.
38:11They don't care.
38:12It's like I've had three conversations over the years with
38:15Calendly and three different people and every time you talk
38:19to him.
38:19Well, I'm new it's different.
38:21We're thinking now you not because I spoke to you before
38:25and you're not even listening, you know, you just yeah writing
38:28down what you're going to have for dinner later.
38:30You're not listening.
38:31Yeah.
38:32Yeah.
38:33Yeah, honestly or I mean they're also like I know that a lot
38:37of developers also when they do like these user interviews,
38:40they don't actually they're only going to listen if you say
38:43something that like resonates with them, right?
38:45Or if or if they or if it validates what they're trying to
38:48do.
38:49So there if they want to build the calendar and the user says,
38:52well, I'd rather like, you know, like there's these two issues
38:54with link sharing.
38:55They'll be like, okay, that's cool.
38:56Then the minute you mentioned calendar, they'll be like, I
38:58knew it.
38:58I knew this is what I needed to do and then they'll then they'll
39:01have something to talk to show their manager show the project
39:04manager and be like, look, I told you and they're going to
39:06try to like downplay the other parts.
39:08But I know so many people that end up doing that and you're
39:12right.
39:12I can tell too when I like give user feedback to some products.
39:16It's very clear that their eyes light up when I say something
39:18that resonates because it's it's what they wanted to hear what
39:21they want.
39:21I guess that's human nature.
39:23That is human nature though.
39:24And but it does take a disciplined developer to know.
39:28Absolutely.
39:28I mean going back to around that the video conferencing.
39:33So yeah, beautiful app.
39:35Love it.
39:37There were some features that I didn't quite understand.
39:39So I'm like, what the fuck are you doing?
39:40Why is this at me?
39:41This isn't here and they were like, oh, yeah, I didn't think
39:43of that.
39:44I'm like, how did you not think so?
39:46You have a yeah, you you open a room and you wait for people
39:50to come in but you don't know they're coming in because there's
39:53no beep or anything.
39:54They just come in really.
39:55Okay.
39:55Like are you kidding?
39:56Do you know one in your team thought about this?
40:00Are you kidding?
40:00Yeah, and there's so many of those little things in a lot
40:04of apps.
40:05They're not the only one.
40:06I mean, there's so many little things in a lot of apps that
40:08they don't think about but as you said, I think they they I
40:12think listen just like you you do because I think you want
40:15to make your product bigger better.
40:17Yeah, and that's why you're listening because you want to
40:19get feedback, but there's a lot of companies that don't give
40:22a shit and they just want to like you said, oh, I was thinking
40:25a calendar.
40:26He said calendar.
40:27Let's do calendar, right?
40:29Like right.
40:29No, you heard it from one person.
40:32Yeah.
40:33Yeah.
40:33Yeah, it's crazy.
40:35But most of these productivity apps it, you know, this whole
40:42shiny object syndrome thing.
40:44Everyone has it everyone even I have it.
40:46I have it because of what I do, but I do have it and I saw
40:51a post on LinkedIn today from someone I know and the he linked
40:56to an article wasn't his article about these are the apps
40:59are going to help your productivity and I was like, no, no
41:05the app don't matter.
41:06It's how you work that matters.
41:09It's not the app.
41:09If you find an app that works the way you think yeah.
41:13Yeah, fantastic.
41:14But you have to understand how you work before you pick the
41:19app. If you just get the app, you're just going from one to
41:22the other to the other to the other and that just doesn't
41:24work. And the thing I like about your app is that it's really
41:28freaking simple.
41:29It's like so simple and it just it does make sense.
41:33There are again.
41:33There are some things I don't like about it, but that's normal.
41:37I'm weird, but but that but but the the the idea of it is
41:42great and out of the other apps in the space, I'd rather use
41:48yours not because I talked to you but because it's so much
41:51more simpler because you don't try to do anything more than
41:55what the app is supposed to do.
41:57Yeah, right.
41:59Yeah, and this is the thing most of these other most of these
42:01other apps all these any you know, any kind of productivity
42:06app as it were they tried to do to do too much and they lose
42:11focus on what their core business is.
42:14Yeah.
42:15Yeah.
42:15Yeah.
42:16I completely agree completely agree.
42:20Yeah, I honestly like I would say that like simplicity.
42:24I mean, it's not it sounds really like it's cliched.
42:27I know yeah, but like yeah, I honestly think simplicity is like
42:30it is it is a feature like being able to have that is a feature
42:34and it is it's something that has to like you have to consciously
42:38think about it like when you're going to add a feature which
42:39is why like when I do add a feature it takes me a long time
42:43to figure out is this the right move and then also how can I
42:45make it so it's in the exact place where it won't get in the
42:49way of someone who doesn't want it or like I need to make sure
42:52that it's there for the user who wants it and it's there for
42:55the power user the power user who is going to use it but it
42:59cannot even be it cannot even be seen by the person who does
43:03not want it like they need to be able to have that kind of
43:05control which is just why so many things are you know buried
43:09in the settings where when you turn them on then you'll now
43:11see them in the UI now, it's all visible, but if you don't
43:15want it, it will never bother you.
43:17Yeah, it'll like it's almost like it didn't exist and
43:19I think that's that's something that a lot of like a lot of
43:22the competitors that I have that I've seen they they keep
43:25adding new things and now when I look at like I think they
43:27started with good intentions and it was simple but like it
43:31just does so much there's so many options so many buttons
43:33and I already know I won't I personally won't use more than
43:3630% of them and I'm sure that a lot of users it's actually
43:41funny how I've had the users that have come to me most of
43:44them come because not because they found me but because they
43:46used a competitor who then and then they found me through
43:49that and now the number one thing is why they switch is the
43:54simplicity which is really funny because it's like they do
43:56very similar things to me, but I just have less features and
43:59they see that as a like as a as a feature almost like it's
44:03a feature.
44:04I mean it is an advantage because as I said that they're
44:06doing all a lot of these productivity apps are just doing
44:10too much think of Todoist for instance, right Todoist was
44:14a simple to do app that did the basic things and I'm not
44:18saying they do it badly or anything, but they've added so many
44:21features and I know a lot of people who moved away from it,
44:24which is a shame because they have features that other companies
44:29like things don't have collaboration sharing and stuff like
44:32that and commenting attachments doesn't have it, but they'd
44:36rather use things because of the simplicity even though they're
44:40missing and I'm one of them.
44:43I used to use Todoist and I loved it.
44:46It was fantastic.
44:47I could share it, but then I realized well do I need to share
44:50it because I don't want to see all this other stuff and to
44:53me Todoist is very PC like and things is very Mac like, you
44:58know what I mean?
44:59Yeah, that matters a lot to me as well that matters a hell of
45:02a lot to me is the same with Basecamp Basecamp is very PC
45:06like and craft is very Mac like I'm kind of getting back into
45:10this Mac.
45:11Yeah.
45:11Yeah.
45:12Yeah, you know being the Mac junkie I am kind of thing.
45:14Yeah.
45:15No, no, no.
45:15I honestly like I think that's I mean, that's a good point.
45:19That's that's definitely what I would want for a mogul compared
45:21to competitors.
45:22Like I definitely want people to think like, you know, if Apple
45:25design something or they built something this is probably what
45:28they would want it to be or like this is what somebody who
45:31cares about those like little things and the design and just
45:35how it works like they would use like mobile like that's what
45:38they would want.
45:40That's definitely a goal.
45:42I mean, you know looking at your app as I said, I really do
45:45like it because of the simplicity the fact that it's just
45:49a big fat M as well, which is really cool.
45:51Yeah.
45:51Yeah, which is my logo, which is a big fat K.
45:55So, you know, I mean it honestly it really is simple there
46:00are you know what I'm going to I'm going to be your product
46:04manager and I'm going to send you some information.
46:06Oh, please please.
46:08Please please.
46:09Yeah, and then just give me a credit.
46:11At least they know maybe I can put it on my resume, but but
46:15no, honestly, I love it because it is so simple.
46:22I'm a special case as you know, and the thing is I want to
46:25use the least amount of apps possible and that's probably
46:28why I don't use it and it's probably the only reason I don't
46:31use it because it takes me a long time to decide that I need
46:35another step in my workflow because my workflow works.
46:39I use different tools, you know, I change tools out to test
46:43things but the my workflow doesn't doesn't have a CRM.
46:49I don't kind of want one or need one.
46:52If I do want if I need one and I want one I'm obviously
46:57going to look at this but there are certain things missing
46:59in the way that I would work, but I'm not expecting you
47:02to add them because that's not what the app is.
47:05You see what I mean?
47:08But honestly looking at it.
47:10I like it this turning out to be an advert for you for
47:12God's sake, but it's not meant to be just so people can
47:15listen.
47:18But no, honestly, I do really like it.
47:21But what what actually is what is actually in your like
47:26in your tech stack like the main apps that you're using?
47:30Yeah, honestly, so right now Sonsama is the I think the
47:35biggest productivity one which I'm going to check again.
47:37It's like Trello and say send me a link to that because
47:40I don't I can't I don't know what that means but send
47:42me a link to that so I can check out.
47:44Okay.
47:44Yeah, I'll go ahead and send it.
47:46Yeah, it's extremely pricey for what it is.
47:49I think it's like 20 $20 a month, which is it's one of
47:51the more like pricey apps that I pay for fantastical is
47:57like another huge one that I use like every day religiously.
48:01I use notion to take like quick notes.
48:06They they've my biggest like issue with them was the speed
48:10like it got to the point where I like did not want to
48:13open that thing because I was like it's going to take
48:15two seconds, which doesn't sound like a lot.
48:16It sounds like such a first world problem to have is
48:18like wow, it takes two seconds to open this but over
48:21small interactions add up and like if I had to wait two
48:24seconds or like 50 times during the day it does start
48:27at it adds up.
48:28Yeah, so I think they thankfully made some changes.
48:32So it's way faster.
48:33So I'm starting to use it just to it's mainly for like
48:36throwing recipes or throwing like random note like quick
48:39notes in there.
48:41I wanted to use craft for that.
48:43But to be honest, I think what I would use craft for
48:46is when I do have to send like very beautiful documents
48:49to someone else.
48:50Yeah, I'm for sure using craft.
48:51Yeah, but I think for notion, it's just kind of like
48:55that almost like that like like I post snippets in there
48:59and all that stuff one password.
49:01I actually use religiously to which a lot of people don't
49:05a lot of people aren't aware like a password manager,
49:07but I guess I log into so many things maybe just for
49:11my job, but I literally been doing that all the time.
49:14Yeah, I think that honestly those are the core.
49:16It's really just since I'm looking at my doc right now.
49:18It's just it's always sun sama fantastic.
49:20L or notion and I just hop between just between those
49:26three.
49:27I'm surprised you don't use drafts actually for adding
49:31no, no.
49:33I'm surprised that I mean, what is what?
49:36Wait, what is that?
49:37What is draft?
49:38Yeah.
49:39What is that?
49:39Oh man, dude.
49:40I gotta send you a link.
49:41Seriously, if you're okay, so you've seen my that's it
49:46right?
49:46You've seen it.
49:47There's nothing there.
49:49Drafts is at the center one in the middle.
49:51What and the reason it's there.
49:55What someone sent me a message.
49:57The reason it's there is for taking notes.
50:03Okay, it's it's my scratch pad basically.
50:07So let me see if I can get this up on screen.
50:10So you see it.
50:12Yeah, you want I want to do this now.
50:14Oh, look at this two of me.
50:16Don't do that.
50:16Oh, I can't for some reason.
50:18It's not coming up.
50:19Come on.
50:21It's not coming up.
50:23Oh, it's not coming up.
50:24Now forget it, but it's it's check it out.
50:29It's an awesome app.
50:30It yeah.
50:31Yeah syncs with your phone your Mac your iPad and watch
50:35if you have one, but I have it as my I have an idea.
50:39I want to write it down forget notion forget notion.
50:44It's Litch and you can send you can even write emails in
50:47it so you can write stuff and it has these scripts way
50:50actually pushes it to things to your email to your wherever
50:56you want basically so I use it like when I'm walking my
50:59dog and I have an idea.
51:00I just write it down and leave it.
51:02I don't put it in my task list or anything.
51:04It's not a great task.
51:06I don't use Apple notes for that.
51:08My Apple notes is more my wiki.
51:10It's it's like my okay, right?
51:13So that so Apple next has a spec as a place craft is for
51:18proposals and sending documents draft is yeah, as I said
51:23for quick notes and writing if I'm writing blog post I use
51:29I a writer which is beautiful.
51:31Okay.
51:31Yeah, and yeah fantastical and things that that's basically
51:37and and I've gone back to Apple mail from hey.com.
51:41Yeah, that's another video.
51:43I'll make a video about that.
51:44Yeah.
51:45Yeah.
51:45So yeah, I'm just trying to keep it really honed.
51:50So I don't use too many apps.
51:53Yeah, man.
51:55I can't believe you don't know about drafts.
51:57No, I I'm surprised too.
51:59I think that's really interesting though that you have
52:01like that what you said about like you have specific like
52:05you use drafts for this purpose use craft for this purpose
52:08use I write it for this purpose because a lot of people they
52:11do try to and I'm one of those people.
52:13I'm always like I'd love to just have you know, one thing
52:16for the note-taking app, but like now after I've seen craft
52:20I like can't go I definitely like I was one of those people
52:23that post that do a notion to send to someone else if I do
52:29that, but now I'm like, I think I'm going to change the
52:31changelog for mogul like it's right now in a notion doc
52:33and there's a link on the website so you can see the
52:35changelog right like what's coming like and I think I might
52:39switch it to craft honestly just because it's so like it
52:42is such a beautiful experience.
52:43It's a really good experience really simple.
52:46I think they're going to do custom domains and things
52:48like that soon as well, which is really nice.
52:50So yeah, you could I mean to be honest with I was actually
52:54thinking you could even have a blog on it.
52:56It's got unlimited space.
52:57He could you could blog on it could one thing they don't
53:00have which are working on is embedding videos and stuff
53:04like that.
53:04We know it doesn't have that which is kind of annoying
53:08but the simplicity of it the way it looks the way it works
53:13for the user the user for me the user experience for my
53:17client is way more important than anything else for my client
53:22not necessarily for me.
53:23Yeah.
53:23Yeah, but I want it to be good for me.
53:26I don't want it but the user experience for the client is
53:30vital for you.
53:32Yeah, it is huge for it should be huge for everyone.
53:36So yeah, when I send something out, I want it to look good.
53:39I don't want them to click so many times to do something
53:42if they can do it in one or two clicks fantastic if they
53:45have to look and figure out what it is.
53:47That's not it's not going to work.
53:50So yeah, that's really important.
53:52But yeah, I think we're kind of the same is just like a
53:56handful of apps basically.
53:58Yeah.
53:59Yeah.
53:59Yeah.
53:59Yeah.
54:00And I mean it seems like it's it's very like what I am
54:05finding interesting with like what you said about having
54:09like I a writer and crafts.
54:11It's amazing for that one thing like we're sending proposals
54:14for like if you want a good and client experience that seems
54:17to be what they're excelling at for drafts.
54:19It's like an amazing like first like a really great place
54:24to capture and I feel like it's kind of going back to that
54:28thing.
54:28We talked about at the very beginning.
54:30It's like, you know, if the app can focus on like its core
54:35thing or something.
54:36It's really good at if it tries to do too many other things
54:38like I'm sure if if if crafts they wanted to start competing
54:42heavily with notion and I think they start adding too many
54:45things to the experience.
54:46It would totally dilute that thing that they're good at which
54:50is yeah.
54:50Yeah, and vice versa.
54:52Like yeah and vice versa.
54:53I mean, I'm in their slack group as well and they there's
54:58a guy called Victor.
54:59I think he's the founder.
55:01He knows exactly what he wants and he doesn't listen to other
55:04people which is really nice as well.
55:07But he also said we don't want to be notion you can because
55:11right now that doesn't they don't have tables.
55:13Everyone's into this tables.
55:14I want tables and yeah, you get it but yeah fine, but they
55:17said tables.
55:19Yes databases never basically, so they're not going to try
55:24to change into a notion.
55:26What they're trying to do is get away from that notion thing
55:30and make beautiful documents and do some nice things the thing.
55:34I don't like about notion and craft for writing because it's
55:38not a writing tool.
55:40Yeah, whereas I a write in use Ulysses and things like that
55:43and even Apple notes you they're kind of writing tools.
55:46You're not messing around with blocks or anything and I a
55:50writer.
55:50I like because of the syntax highlighting like you've written
55:54too many words.
55:55What the hell does this work me because I'm used to writing
55:58that's why I do videos, but it's really good the other app
56:02that I really like that helps me writing to three apps.
56:05I use for writing which is really crazy.
56:08I use I am for okay.
56:10I use drafts to get my ideas down and write a couple of
56:14paragraphs.
56:15I then put it into I a writer where it kind of tells me these
56:20are weird words.
56:21Sometimes I put it into Grammarly to just check out the
56:25commas and stuff.
56:25Yeah, and then I put it into Hemingway app.
56:30Okay, which is amazing because it's like, okay this chunk
56:33of words.
56:34You just don't need you know, and then once I have it then
56:39I have a real concise piece of work writing that I can say
56:46I didn't do it, but someone helped me and it's good.
56:50You know what I mean?
56:50So it sounds like a lot of work.
56:52It isn't really but because I don't write a lot.
56:55I just write a few paragraphs.
56:57It was kind of cool.
56:59Yeah, that's kind of the basics of it that what as you said
57:03that once you find an app that does that one particular thing
57:08really well keep it you're not going to find another one.
57:12That's the main thing.
57:14Yeah.
57:14Yeah, I agree.
57:15I agree on so unless they dilute it and then and then find
57:22find the alternative but that's okay.
57:24That's interesting.
57:25I yeah, I've actually never met anyone that vocalized that
57:29like I have now that I think about it.
57:31I know some people that use multiple writing apps, but now
57:35is now I see why like that actually makes sense like that.
57:38There's certain reasons.
57:39Yeah.
57:40Yeah.
57:40There's certain reasons that you need to I mean I was in
57:42the same camp as you I wanted to find one app that did
57:45everything for me.
57:46I try to shoehorn everything into it.
57:49But then as the years wore on I mean, you know, I'm double
57:53your age.
57:53I think so.
57:54There's the years were on I've realized that you're never
57:58going to find one if you find one it doesn't do individual
58:00things.
58:01Well, so I try to steer away from them and then I find apps
58:05that do one thing very well.
58:07They can do other things but it's got to be connected to
58:10that one thing and that's it and if you want something else
58:14if you want a calendar app going at fantastical don't try
58:17to I know people who use agenda as a calendar not a good
58:21idea.
58:22I don't I don't get it.
58:23They don't use the calendar app the huge like no just and
58:28then they whine.
58:30Why doesn't cat agenda do this?
58:32Yeah.
58:32Yeah, like it's not made for that.
58:34Don't shoehorn it.
58:35Yeah.
58:36Anyway, we'll leave it there.
58:40Hey, I love talking to you man.
58:42I could go on for hours and hours like we did last time.
58:45Yeah, time flies.
58:47Always but yeah, always a pleasure and thanks again for
58:50coming along and I'll have another conversation with you
58:54another time for sure.
58:55Sweet.
58:55Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure we will.
58:57I'm sure we'll all right.
58:58Thanks so much for having me.
58:58Okay, really?
58:59Absolutely.
59:00You too.
59:00Take care man.
59:01Ciao.
59:02Bye.
59:02Bye.